Yogeśvara: Excuse me. Perhaps at this time we can introduce Madame, Madame Devi?
Jyotirmayī: So we'd like to introduce Mrs. Devi, who came here also to meet you. She's a very wonderful lady. She's writing a dictionary of mysticism, and she did the whole first part on Western religions, and now she wants to do the following part on the Eastern religions. So she would like very much to talk in this book about ourselves, about the movement of Hare Kṛṣṇa which is a big part of the Oriental religions.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Recently, there was a historical excavation that Jesus Christ did not die, and he, after crucification, he was taken to Kashmir.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (French)
Yogeśvara: Where was this? In a newspaper?
Prabhupāda: Yes. In paper I saw. (French)
French Woman: But we are not under historical literally. We try to speak of mystical experience. This is exactly the subject of, that we did. We cannot discuss history because everybody has his own documentation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So I was very much pleased because I was very sorry that Jesus Christ was crucified. But when I heard this historical discovery, I was very satisfied. But one thing is that... Here, at least, in London, I have seen. There are so many churches vacant. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says he was at your conference, last night and he was there when you described how human life is meant for knowing God. So now he wishes to ask you a question: What is our process for coming to know God?
Prabhupāda: That is very simple. It is not at all difficult. Just like in your body, you are, the soul, important active principle... (to Jyotirmayī:) Explain. (French) Similarly, this huge, gigantic, cosmic manifestation must have some active principle. That is God. So where is the difficulty to understand God? (French)
Yogeśvara: For example, in our prayers, in our studies, what is our...
Prabhupāda: Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you'll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ: (SB 1.1.1) "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Vāsudeva who is the origin of all creation." This is the active principle. There is. So... And how He is working? (To Jyotirmayī:) You have to explain. (French) In the beginning of Bhāgavatam, I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation, it will go there. And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijñaḥ, cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then... Of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, "Wherefrom God got knowledge?" Therefore it is stated there, svarāṭ. He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone else. He's independently full of knowledge. (French)
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That would be impersonal. (French)
Prabhupāda: On the other hand, he imparted knowledge to Brahmā, the first creation of this universe. That knowledge is called Vedic knowledge. That means Vedic knowledge is coming from God. And it is being distributed through Brahmā. And he's so mysterious that even learned scholars become bewildered to understand Him. And this material world, although it is temporary, it appears to be fact on account of energy, being energy of God. (French)
Yogeśvara: She says that God is known as antaryāmī, the witness in the heart. Does that mean that we can have a direct experience of God without going through the scriptures.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the practice of yoga. (French)
French Woman: I guess if you have the idea of prapatti, of surrender...
French Woman: ...this is a way to God directly.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... That is the real process.
French Woman: But it is not yoga. It is different from yoga?
Prabhupāda: No, it is bhakti-yoga.
French Woman: Prapatti is different.
Prabhupāda: Prapatti is bhakti-yoga.
French Woman: You take it in bhakti?
Prabhupāda: Bhakti, yes. Prapatti means bhakti. Just like I can surrender unto you when I have got full faith and devotion unto you. Otherwise, I cannot. That is wanted. If we simply surrender to God, then everything is complete. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā, the prapati is described, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), this word: "After many, many births of philosophical speculation or personal endeavor to understand what is God, when he's actually wise, he surrenders unto Me." And it is said next line, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: (BG 7.19) "Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything." When he understands this, then his knowledge is perfect. But such kind of mahātmā, great soul, is very rare to be seen." (French)
Jyotirmayī: So she said that in..., it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot, they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar-bahiḥ yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?), "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And naradita..., nan tad yadi bahi hari sthapasata tat (?), "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being. (French)
Jyotirmayī: So they agree totally with what you said. (French)