Prabhupāda: There was no... We don't require all these things because we know others are victims. They pay for it. And they work hard for the money and pay to work. That's all. Our men never touch this Coca-cola and cigarette, but others, they are mad after it.
Brahmānanda: They say they have to work so hard to get food, but actually they are working hard for this.
Prabhupāda: He'll get food. Food they can grow very easily, but they... Anartha. This is called anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily. Ādau śraddh tata sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriy tato 'nartha-nivṛtti syāt. So anartha-nivṛtti civilization, not anartha increasing. Civilization means anartha-nivṛtti syāt because we are complicated by the anarthas, unwanted things. (break) ...this way there is bulls, horses for transport. But what is the use of these big, big motorbuses and acquire petrol, machine, factory, so many things? But nature's way there is already means of transport. The horses are there. The bulls are there. But they will eat them, and they will create these motor big, big buses and then petrol, then fight. (baby birds making sounds.)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They also want to join the saṅkīrtana movement.
Prabhupāda: They are dependent on mother, by nature dependent. Similarly, you should be dependent on the original source of emanation. This is nature. Why they are with the mother?
Cyavana: Without the mother they cannot survive.
Prabhupāda: No, without, they can survive; still, they are dependent.
Cyavana: They have to be taught how to live by the mother.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They feel protected with the mother. Safe. People sometimes argue that God is for less intelligent, weak persons.
Brahmānanda: People who can't protect themselves, for people who cannot protect themselves, then they can have belief...
Prabhupāda: Then you can protect from death? Can you?
Brahmānanda: But can God protect? Even Jesus Christ, he was killed.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. We are faulty. But you are so advanced. Do you protect yourself from death? We are faulty. That is your decision. That we admit. But what is your position? Protect yourself from death. At any moment death can take place. How you'll protect yourself? Therefore we take protection of God. That "God, You can kill me at any moment. You can save me also." Therefore we are intelligent. But you cannot protect from the onslaught of God. We admit God is great, but you do not, although you will not be protected. You cannot protect yourself from birth, death, old age and disease. So what is the meaning of your protection?
Brahmānanda: So both the devotee and the nondevotee, they are both in the same position. They both...
Prabhupāda: They... And the devotees know that we are under the control of the Supreme, but you do not know. You are cats and dogs, and the dogs do not know, the cats do not know, you do not know. Therefore you are no better than the cats and dogs. And we know that there is God; there is controller. Therefore we are not cats and dogs. We are equal to the cats and dogs. You do not know; therefore you remain cats and dogs. We know.
Brahmānanda: What is the harm of being a cat or a dog?
Prabhupāda: That is later on. First of all you do not know; we know. That is the difference. If somebody knows there is government, he is better than the outlaws who don't, doesn't care for the government. He is better position, a good citizen. Who accepts that there is government is good citizen. And one who doesn't care for the government, does whimsically everything, he becomes criminal. And then he is punished. That is the difference.
Brahmānanda: So if we all became devotees there would be no punishment.
Prabhupāda: No. He'll be protected. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66).
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've given the example that the rat in the mouth of the cat and the kitten in the mouth of the cat is two different things. (break)