Asmin dehe, "In this body, there is the proprietor, the soul." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe. That, on account of the proprietor, he is changing body. Changing body means... So long the soul is there. Suppose a child is born. If the child is born dead, then this body will never grow. You can apply any chemicals or any science; the body will remain the same. But so long the soul is there within the body, the child from the babyhood will come to childhood, then childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. In this way the body will change. We have changed so many bodies, every one of us. I knew, I know that I had a childish body, I had a boyhood body, but those bodies are no more existing. But I am existing. Therefore the conclusion should be that I, you, as soul, we are eternal.
Boyhood (Lectures)
Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
Prabhupāda: Thirteen, yes.
Student: "Just as boyhood, youth and old age are attributed to the soul through this body, he, the soul, obtains another body. The wise man does not get deluded about this."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, the wise man, the word, Sanskrit word, is dhīra. Dhīra means that one who is undisturbed in mind. And our disturbance of the mind is due to our ignorance. Suppose I want to go somewhere. Now I am in the station. Actually, it so happened when I came to New York first from India. I was to be dispatched to Butler by the bus station, but I was a new man. I did not know the rules and regulation. Of course, somebody was guiding me. Still, I was very much in disturbed condition, how to get on the bus, how to get the ticket, how... All these. So disturbance of mind is due to our ignorance. (someone enters) Yes. Come in. Yes. So disturbance of mind is due to our ignorance. So here, a very nice word. (aside:) You can come here. All right. Here a very nice word is used: dhīra. Dhīra. Dhīra means undisturbed. Undisturbed. So this we should, we should carefully note, that our mind in the material condition is always disturbed, always disturbed. And this is due to our unfavorable condition. Because we are actually spirit in identity and we have been put into material conditions. We can very well experience. And we have, I got experience, and here is Captain Pandia. He has also experienced. He may be more than experienced than me. When we passed through the sea on the ship, although we are on the sea, quite safe, still, when there is some storm, when there is some disturbance on the ocean, we also become very much disturbed, because that situation is foreign to us. We are not so much disturbed in the land as we are disturbed in the ocean because we know that our position in the ocean is not our natural condition. So we should know that disturbance is due to our unnatural condition. Otherwise, there is no question of disturbance.
"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." This is the basic principle of spiritual understanding. Everyone is talking of spiritual knowledge, but very few of them may have what is actually the basic principle of spiritual knowledge. Here in this verse of Bhagavad-gītā... I think they understand English everyone?
So the body is changing. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Kaumāram means boyhood. Yauvanam means youthhood, and jarā means old age, aged body. So I can remember, I am an old man, I can remember, I had a boy's body, I had a young man's body. Now I have got this aged body. So although the boyhood body, the youthhood body are no longer existing, but I am existing. That's a fact. Everyone can understand. He has got past, present, and future. You are all young boys and girls present here. So you had your past body as boyhood, childhood. Similarly, you have got your future body. That is awaiting. I have got it, you are awaiting. So past, future, past, present, and future, relatively we can understand in any condition of life.
So when this body will be finished, I'll get another body. As I have got consecutively from boyhood to childhood, childhood, I have, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, aged body, so why not next body? This is simple truth, that the living entity, or the soul, is transmigrating from one body to another. This is the basic principle of spiritual understanding. The vital force of the body is the spirit soul. It is not a mechanical arrangement of matter. The modern so-called scientists, they think that the body is combination of matter and, at a certain stage, these combination of matter develop living symptoms. But that is not a fact. If it is a fact, then the scientists can manufacture with chemicals a living body. But a scientist even up to date is unable to manufacture even a body like an ant, and what to speak of other, bigger animals.
He advises that from the very beginning of life, kaumāra... kaumāra means five years to ten years. This span of life is called kaumāra. Kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, that as we are reading here, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. So kaumāra means boy's life. So kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha. A human being, he should learn about the Bhāgavata-dharma from the beginning of his kaumāra age, not that keep it aside, "When I shall become old man, then I shall read the scriptures." No. Kaumāra, from the boyhood. Kaumāra ācaret prājñaḥ. If one is actually having sense... Of course, a boy has no sense. It is the duty of the father and mother to engage the child, boy, from the beginning of his life in the matter of devotional service, bhāgavatān. Fortunately, we got a very nice father; he engaged us in this devotional service from the very beginning of our life.
Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As the soul, dehī, is passing through different types of body, even in this life... First of all, he gets a small body within the womb of the mother. Just like a pea. And that pea changes into another form, another form, another form. Then when the form is complete with hands and legs, it comes out. Then again changes from babyhood to childhood, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. In this way, the living entity is changing the body. Not that the living entity itself is changing. It is changing simply body, according to the necessity. That is explained here. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13).
Pradyumna (leads chanting, etc.):
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
Translation: "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."
Prabhupāda: This simple thing, they cannot understand. Therefore it is mentioned here, dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra means sober, cool-headed man. And just the opposite is adhīra. Adhīra means third-class, fourth-class man. Or rascals, adhīra. Dhīra means sober. Just like... The exact translation is "gentleman," dhīra. Those who are not gentlemen, uncultured, uneducated, rascal, they cannot understand. Otherwise where is the difficulty?
So next life the body may change. "May" not. It will change. But I may not remember. That is another thing. Just like in my last life, what was my body, I do not remember. So forgetfulness is our nature. Because I forget something, that does not mean that things did not take place. No. In my childhood I did so many things. I do not remember. But my father (and) mother, who have seen my childhood, they remember. So forgetting does not mean that things did not take place. Similarly, death means I have forgotten what was I was in the past life. That is called death. Otherwise I, as spirit soul, I have no death. Suppose I change my dress. In my boyhood I was in a different dress. In my youthhood I was in a different dress. In my old age, or as a sannyāsī. I am in a different dress. So dress may change. That does not mean the owner of the dress is dead or gone. No.
If you prepare yourself... Just like in childhood, boyhood, if you prepare yourself, nicely educated, then you get nice job, nice situation, you will be happy. Preparation for the next life. Similarly, if you prepare yourself in this life for going back to home, back to Godhead, then where is perplexity? There is no perplexity. "I am going to Kṛṣṇa I am going back to home, back to Godhead. Now I will have not to change material body. I will have my spiritual body. I shall now play with Kṛṣṇa, dance with Kṛṣṇa, eat with Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Prepare yourself for the next life. Don't be... The man, dying man cries because maybe he is dreaming next life, horrible life. Because according to karma... Those who are very, very sinful, they cry, because they see horrible scenes at the time of death, and he is going to accept some type of body... But those who are pious, those who are devotees, they are dying without any anxiety. They are dying.
We are existing at present, and we shall continue to exist in the future." Exactly like that, that we live in one apartment. Then, if I am able to pay more rent, I transfer to another apartment. Or if I cannot pay the present rent, then I'll have to move to another, less rented apartment. This is called: "I existed in one apartment, Now I am existing in one apartment, and I shall exist in another apartment." So I am eternal; I am simply changing my apartment or dress. This simple thing. Asmin dehe yathā. As kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, in this life I am experiencing that I changed so many apartments—I was a child; that apartment I changed into boyhood; then again I changed that apartment into youthhood; then I am old man—so when this apartment will be vacated, I'll have to accept another apartment. Where is the difficulty to understand? I must possess one apartment or body. The body is the apartment. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). It is just like this apartment. This room is made of bricks, stone and cement.
Madhudviṣa: Thirteen. "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth and then to old age, similarly the soul also passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Purport: "Since every living entity is an individual soul, each is changing his body at every moment, manifesting sometimes as a child, sometimes as a youth, and sometimes as an old man, although the same spirit soul is there and does not undergo any change. The individual soul finally changes the body itself in transmigrating from one to another. And since it is sure to have another body in the next birth, either material or spiritual, there was no cause for lamentation by Arjuna on account of death, either over Bhīṣma or over Droṇa, for whom he was so concerned."
Prabhupāda: Now, this simple fact, as it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13), the change of body is taking place every moment. Every moment. Just like this child, the child, if there is some measuring instrument, if you measure this child today, tomorrow you'll find the child has grown or changed the body. That is a medical science also. The body is changing. The body is changing, but the soul is there. Just like I had my childhood body, boyhood body, and now I am in a different body, but I remember all the activities of my childhood. Therefore I am permanent. And body is changing. This simple truth, what is the difficulty for the people to understand this simple truth? The body is changing, but I am not changing. I am eternal.
Again they will change their body, but they will exist." This is the instruction. The body is changing, and the vivid example? That in this life you are changing body. So what is the difficulty of understanding this simple truth that the soul is different from the body? And so far eternity of the soul, that is also, there is proof. Because in childhood I was present, in boyhood I was present, in youthhood I was present, and in this old age I am still present. (baby fussing) So naturally it is concluded that when I change this body, I exist. When I change this body... This body will be changed. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As the parents of this child... Now she is, say, one-feet long only. When this child will grow five feet long, the father and mother, will they cry, "Oh, my child! Where is my child, that one-feet long?" He knows. The parents know that my child is there, but changed the body. This is a fact. Similarly, "You are lamenting on the body of your grandfather and teacher, even they change their body, what is the cause of lamentation? They will exist." This is the beginning of instruction of Bhagavad-gītā or spiritual instruction. Unless one understands this simple fact, that the soul is different from this body, the soul is eternal, the body is temporary, changing... Because without understanding this, there is no spiritual education. A false education. If one identifies with this body, there is no understanding of spiritual knowledge.
So if you want to stop the danger of death, then you have to understand what is that Absolute Truth. Just like I have given already the example of sunshine. If you come to the sunshine, there is no darkness. But if you keep yourself within closed door, do not like to see the sunshine, that is your own choice. So everyone should try to come to the light. That is Vedic injunction, tamaso mā jyotir gamaya, means "Do not remain in darkness, come to the light." Light means knowledge, and darkness means ignorance. So every one of us now in the ignorance that we do not know "What I am." Everyone is in darkness in the concept of body. Ask anyone what you are. He will say, "I am this body. I am Mr. Such and such." "I am Indian." "I am American." This is all bodily description. And we have already discussed. This body is temporary, but I, the spirit soul, I am permanent. I have already experienced that I had my childhood body, I had my babyhood body, I had my boyhood body, youthhood body, I know it, but the bodies are no more existing, but I am existing. So therefore I am permanent, and the body is nonpermanent. Therefore it is said, nāsato vidyate bhāvaḥ: "Permanency is not there in the body." Nābhāvo vidyate sataḥ: "And there is no annihilation of the permanent or the eternal."
Prabhupāda: In a different way, in varied ways, Kṛṣṇa is trying to make us understand the constitutional position of the soul. Yes.
Viṣṇujana: "Change of body by the atomic individual soul is an accepted fact. Even some of the modern scientists who do not believe in the existence of the soul but at the same time cannot explain the source of energy from the heart, they have to accept continuous changes of body which appear from childhood to boyhood and from boyhood to youth and again from youth to old age. From old age the change is transferred to another body. This has already been explained in the previous verse. Transference of the atomic individual soul to another body is also made possible by the grace of the Supersoul. The Supersoul fulfills the desire of the soul as one friend fulfills the desire of another. The Vedas, such as the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad, as well as the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad..."
Prabhupāda: Śvetāśvatara.
Viṣṇujana: "...confirm this concept of two kinds of souls by comparing them to two friendly birds sitting on the same tree. One of the birds, the individual atomic soul, is eating the fruit of the tree, and the other bird is simply watching his friend. Of these two birds, although they are the same in quality, one is captivated by the fruits of the material tree, while the other is simply witnessing his activity. Kṛṣṇa is the witnessing bird and Arjuna is the eating bird. Although they are friends, one is still the master and the other is the servant."
Prabhupāda: That is the eternal relationship. These are confirmed in Vedic literature just like Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad, Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad. The system is whatever is mentioned in the Vedas, that is authoritatively accepted. That is the Vedic understanding. If there is some evidence in the Vedas... Just like in law court, if there is some section in the lawbook, then the lawyers, the judge, accept it. "Yes, it is like this." Similarly knowledge. Vedas means knowledge. So perfect knowledge is there. Therefore if the evidence is there in the statement of Vedas, that is the proof. Śabda-pramāṇa. There are three kinds of evidences. Pratyakṣa, direct sense perception, and śabda-pramāṇa, evidence from the Vedic statement, and anumāna, aitihya, historical or hypothesis.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In your Bible also it is said that "Man is made after God," not that God is made after man. The atheist class, they say that "You have created a God according to your own feature," but no scripture says like that. God has eternal two hands, two legs. So man... God is so kind that man is also made according to His form. That is a special facility given to man, not that somebody imagines God, "Because man has two hands, therefore God has two hands." No. That is not a fact. Here it is explained nicely. Go on.
Madhudviṣa: "He appears exactly in His eternal body, uncontaminated by this material world. Although He appears in the same transcendental body, it still appears that He has taken His birth like an ordinary living entity, although in fact He is the lord of the universe. Despite the fact that Lord Kṛṣṇa has grown up from childhood to boyhood and from boyhood to youth, astonishingly enough, He never ages beyond youth-hood. On the battlefield of Kurukṣetra when He was present, He had many grandchildren at home, or, in other words, He had sufficiently aged by material calculations. Still, He looked just like a young man, twenty or twenty-five years old. We have never seen a picture of Kṛṣṇa in old age because He never grows old like us, although He is the oldest person in the whole creation, past, present, and future. Neither His body nor His intelligence ever deteriorates or changes. Therefore it is clear herein that in spite of His being in the material world, He is the same unborn, eternal form of bliss and knowledge, changeless in His transcendental body and intelligence. Factually His appearance and disappearance are like the sun rising, moving before us and then disappearing from our eyesight. When the sun is out of sight, we think that the sun is dead. And when the sun is before our eyes, we think that the sun is on the horizon. Actually the sun is always there. But owing to our defective, insufficient eyesight we must calculate the appearance and disappearance of the sun in the sky. And because His appearance and disappearance are completely different from that of any ordinary common living entity, it is evident that He is eternal in blissful knowledge by His internal potency, and He is not contaminated by material nature. The Vedas confirm that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is unborn, and yet He still appears to be taking His birth in multi-manifestations. The Vedic supplementary literature also confirms that even though the Lord appears to be taking His birth, He is still without change of body. In the Bhāgavatam He appears before His mother as Nārāyaṇa with four hands and the decorations of the six kinds of full opulences. His appearance in His original eternal form is His causeless mercy, according to the Viśvakośa dictionary. The Lord is conscious of all His previous appearances and disappearances, but a common living entity forgets everything about his past body as soon as he gets another. He shows that He is the Lord of all living entities by performing wonderful and superhuman activities while on this earthly planet. The Lord is always the same Absolute Truth, and is without differentiation between His form and self, or between His quality and body. A question may now be raised as to why the Lord appears and disappears in this world at all. This is explained in the next verse."
Prabhupāda: All right. Stop. We shall discuss next. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very nice. All right. Any question regarding this discussion?
Balabhadra: I thought Kṛṣṇa was sixteen only.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: How He can be contaminated by the modes of material nature? Because Kṛṣṇa says that
- daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
- mama māyā duratyayā
- mām eva ye prapadyante
- māyām etāṁ taranti te
- (BG 7.14)
If somebody surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, He becomes free from the touch of māyā. Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, if one becomes liberated from the clutches of māyā, how Kṛṣṇa can be under the clutches of māyā? This is foolishness. Those who say that "Kṛṣṇa also accepts this material body," that, that is not the fact.
And another thing is, either the material energy or the spiritual energy, both are Kṛṣṇa's energies. So even He appears like that, He has accepted the material body, that material body does not act as material body. He can change matter into spirit and spirit into matter. Because He is the controller, īśvaraḥ. Bhūtānām īśvaraḥ. He can change that.
Just like electrician. He can change a refrigerator into a heater, and a heater into a refrigerator. Because the same power, electricity, is working. He knows the art, how to change it. But we cannot do that. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourselves. Hm. Then?
Pradyumna: "Although He appears in the same transcendental body and is Lord of the universe, it still appears that He takes His birth like an ordinary living entity. Despite the fact Lord Kṛṣṇa grows from childhood to boyhood, and from boyhood to youth, astonishingly enough, He never ages beyond youth. At the time of the Battle of Kurukṣetra, He had many grandchildren at home, or, in other words, He had sufficiently aged by material calculations. Still, He looked just like a young man, twenty or twenty-five years old. We never see a picture of Kṛṣṇa in old age because He never grows old like us, although He is the oldest person in the whole creation, past, present and future. Neither His body nor His intelligence ever deteriorates or changes. Therefore it is clear that in spite of His being in this material world, He is the same unborn eternal form of bliss and knowledge, changeless in His transcendental body and intelligence. Factually, His appearance and disappearance are like the sun's rising, moving before us and then disappearing from our eyesight. When the sun is out of sight, we think that the sun has set, and when the sun is before our eyes, we think that the sun is on the horizon."
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not appear or disappear. Our eyesight changes. Just like we are looking through the window. One horse race is going on. When the horse comes before the window, we can see. And when it passes through, from our eyesight, we think that horse is no longer existing. But the horse is running. This example should be taken. Kṛṣṇa is called nitya-līlā. He is taking His birth, He is fighting in the battle of Kurukṣetra, He's dancing with the gopīs. That is going on eternally in either of the so many, innumerable universes.
Just like the, the entity, living entity is in the body... Just like a child. The living entity's there. The body is very small. But that small body is growing, growing. That is changing. And growing, growing, that small child becomes a boy, grown up boy. And that grown up boy gradually becomes a youth. And then that youth becomes an old man, old man. And then, after, at the end, when the body's no more useful, he changes to another body. So this death means the ultimate change of the present body. So this body's changing. Now, Kṛṣṇa says that as the body is changing, still, the person whose body is this, he's there. He's there. The child is grown up to a boyhood. That does not mean the living entity who came out as a baby is gone. No, he's still there. But his body has changed. Now, you cannot find the small body which came out of the mother's womb when the grown up boy. And you cannot find in a youth that grown, grown up boyhood photograph, or the body. That is gone.
I have several times explained this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Again I shall explain. It is very nice to explain. You have got your consciousness. Is it right? Every one of us, we have got consciousness. Is that right? Now, this consciousness is eternal. This consciousness is not a result of the combination of matter. You cannot create consciousness by mixing so many chemicals or material things in the laboratory. That is not possible. This consciousness eternal. How do we know it? Because we understand it from Bhagavad-gītā. It is stated that avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam: "That thing which is spread all over your body..." And what is that thing? This consciousness. You pinch any part of your body; you feel pain because the consciousness is there. "So that thing, consciousness," Kṛṣṇa says, the teacher of Bhagavad-gītā, "that is eternal." Eternal. Now, how it is eternal? When you were a child the consciousness was there. Then you grew up to your boyhood—the consciousness was there. Then you are now young—the consciousness is there. And when you become old man like me, the consciousness will be there.
Yes, the soul does not manipulate. It simply... Just like you had your childhood body, boyhood body. Now you have got a body of young man, youthhood body. And again you will get an old man's body, just like I have got. So these bodies are changing. Here everyone can remember that "I had a small body," but that body is not existing anymore. But I know that I possessed such body. Similarly, when this body will be finished, you will accept another body. You may forget it. Death means forgetting. But the body changing of body is going on perpetually, and spiritual life means how to stop this change of body and remain in the spiritual body. That is blissful and full of knowledge.
Just like Ajāmila. Ajāmila, in his boyhood, he was brāhmaṇa. He was giving service to Viṣṇu. But in young age he became a victim of a prostitute, and he fell down. But at the end, ante nārāyaṇa-smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6), when Yamadūta was coming and were so fearful, he did not know whom to take shelter, but he was attached to his youngest son, whose name was Nārāyaṇa. So he thought, "This Nārāyaṇa would give me protection." So he asked him, "Nārāyaṇa!" But at the same time he remembered that "That Nārāyaṇa, oh, hm, I sometimes gave service." So immediately Nārāyaṇa saved him. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt.
You will be interested in hearing a story. Not story. It is actual fact. One of my Godbrother who is no longer in this world... His name was Bhaktisāraṅga Goswami. He went to London. Just as I have come to your New York, he went to London and he formed a society also there in which Lord Rolandcey(?), the Marquis of Zetland... He was formerly governor of Bengal during British period, and in our childhood, when we were college student, in boyhood, I saw him. He is very interest in India philosophy. He's a Scotsman but very interested. Lord Rolandcey. So that Lord Rolandcey, he was very kind enough to become the president of that society my Godbrother organized in London. So Lord Rolandcey and that, my Godbrother, is talking. So Lord Rolandcey asked him, "Well, Swamiji, can you make me a brāhmaṇa?" "Yes, why not? Yes, why not? You can become a brāhmaṇa." "So what are the conditions?" My Godbrother said, "The preliminary four conditions." "What are these conditions?" "Now, striya-sūnā-pāna-dyūta yatra pāpaś catur-vidhāḥ: (SB 1.17.38) You cannot have any illicit connection with woman, you cannot have any intoxication habit, you cannot indulge in gambling or unnecessary sporting, and you cannot live on animal food." Lord Rolandcey replied, "It is impossible. It is impossible." (laughs)
But Kṛṣṇa says, na me karma-phale spṛhā. Because He has nothing to desire. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is full with everything. Now, sometimes Kṛṣṇa is misunderstood that Kṛṣṇa, in His boyhood, He had so many girlfriends. Perhaps you may know, who has written, gone through Kṛṣṇa's life. Or in His youthhood, He married sixteen thousand wives. This is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. He had 16,108 wives. So sometimes who does not understand Kṛṣṇa, they think, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa was so sensuous. Oh, He kept sixteen thousand wives." No, that is not the fact. What was the fact? The fact is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord... We have got different relationship with the Supreme Lord constitutionally, every one of us.
It is very simple to understand. As I have changed so many bodies, not only childhood, babyhood, boyhood, youthhood. According to medical science we are changing body every second imperceptibly. So this process, that the soul is permanent... Just like I remember my babyhood body or childhood body. I am the same person, soul, but I have changed so many bodies. Similarly, when ultimately I shall change this body, I shall have to accept another body. This simple formula is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Everyone can think on it. And there must be some scientific research. Recently I got one letter from a doctor in Toronto. He suggested there is body..., there is soul. I had some correspondence with him. Actually this is a fact. The soul is there. There are so many proofs. Not only in the Vedic literature, but even ordinary experience. The soul is there, and the soul is transmigrating from one body to another. This is going on, but unfortunately there is no serious study on the subject matter or department of knowledge in the universities. This is not very good.
This is the material nature. Just like your body, my body, it has taken birth at a certain date, it is growing, and it is producing some children, by-products. Then, as we are growing old, then one day the body will be finished. This is the material nature. Either you take it personally, individually, your body, or this gigantic body of the universe, in whichever way you may take it, the nature is bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Here the material nature is you take your birth or appearance and again disappear and again appear. This is the instruction of spiritual life. The spirit soul is there, but it is not getting a permanent settlement. This is material world. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As the body is changing, there are so many children, they will also become old like me. But the spirit soul is there. In the presence of mother, although the body is changing, the mother knows that "My son is there." Although from babyhood the son has grown to boyhood, the body, original body, child's body, baby's body, is not existing, the mother knows that "My boy is there."
The spiritual knowledge begins when one is perfectly aware that "After finishing this body, I am not finished." That is perfection. Not that those who are in this concept of life, that with the finishing of this body everything is finished. That is nonsense. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Kṛṣṇa teaches. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin..., nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purāṇo na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "This ātmā is never born and he never dies." Na jāyate mriyate vā. Nitya, eternal; śāśvata, ever-existing, śāśvata. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. "Don't think that because the body is finished, therefore he is finished. No." In another place Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As we are changing body from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, youth-hood to grown-up and old age—this is our practical experience, I have several times explained—similarly, this old body, when I give it up, I shall accept another body. What is that body? That will be given to you by the laws of nature according to your mentality. As you create your mentality, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke (BG 8.6), absorb your thought and mind at the time of death, then you are given a particular type of body, either in the womb of a human being or a cat or a dog or a demigod or a tree or so many.
So what is the cause of lamentation?" This is the translation. "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you." That means "You existed, I existed, and all of them existed." Because we are eternal. This is the point. We are soul: we are not this body. Just like in childhood I existed. In my boyhood I existed. In my youthhood I existed. And now I am existing. Therefore the right conclusion is "When this body will not exist, I will exist in another body." So one should not lament for the lump of matter. One should be serious to understand what is that ever-existing eternal thing, soul. That is education. Superficially, we are overwhelmed with this external body. That is ignorance. We should be serious to understand what is that eternal thing which is existing within this body.
We are simply busy for the temporary life, say, for fifty years or hundred years, utmost. But we do not know the life is continuation. As the life is continued we have got experience—from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, then in old body, then what is next? You ask anybody who has become old man. Ask him, "Sir, you have come to this stage. Your body is now old. You have to die. Now, from childhood you came to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, then middle age, and now you have come to... Now what is next? Do you know?" Oh, they will be silent. Nobody knows that what is my next life. A child can say, "My next life is boy. I shall become a boy." The boy can say, "Yes, I will be like very nice young man." The young man can say that "I shall become middle-aged man, father of many children." And the middle-aged man can say, "Yes, I will become old man." And ask the old man what he will become? He cannot answer. Can anyone say?
No. That history of Ajāmila is different. In his childhood he was a son of a brāhmaṇa. He was faithfully discharging the duties of a brāhmaṇa. But accidentally, when he was young... He was married also. Accidentally, when he was young he was passing on the road and some śūdra girl and boy were embracing and kissing, and he became attracted. And he became attracted by the prostitute. And he left home, wife, and everything, and then he became a great dacoit and smuggler, and everything he did. But... And he had so many children. Youngest was Nārāyaṇa. So at the time of death..., because generally, people become attached to the youngest son, so he was calling "Nārāyaṇa." But he remembered, "Oh, that Nārāyaṇa." Reference to the context. As soon as he called Nārāyaṇa... In his boyhood he served Nārāyaṇa under the direction of his father, so he remembered Nārāyaṇa. Therefore it is not always possible, but therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. If somebody has executed devotional service even a little bit, oh, it may be, it can save him from the greatest danger.
The rascals, they do not know how prakṛti, nature is working, and we are completely under the control of material nature. So after death we have to accept one body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). One has to accept. Just like we have given up our childhood body and we accepted another body, boyhood body or youth-hood body or old aged body. Similarly, after giving up this body, old aged body, I have to accept another body. That will be created by nature according to your karma. So that is called mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Then you begin another chapter. Even you become a demigod or a dog or a cockroach or human being, from the date of your birth you begin another chapter. Again duḥkhālayam, to grow up, to change body, to adjust things according to the atmosphere.
That Kṛṣṇa says that asmin dehe: "In this body there is the proprietor of the body, soul. And because the proprietor of the body is there, therefore body is changing different forms." How? Now, just like from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, youthhood to middle-aged, then old man. And when the body is no longer durable, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As you have come through so many bodies, so when the body is no more usable, you get another.
So he informed all the villagers that Lord has come to be witness, and... It is about some thousands years before this thing happened. People were convincing: "Yes. There was no... Such a big statue, this boy could not bring." So they believed, and there was a temple constructed by the king of that country. And still that temple is there, and it is named, the Lord is named, as Sākṣī-Gopāla. Sākṣī-Gopāla. Gopāla means... Gopāla is the name of Kṛṣṇa's boyhood. So because He came to give witness in that controversy, so that temple is still there. So the whole idea is the statue, statue... Because God is everywhere. So He's also in statue. God is everywhere. How can you say that He's not in statue? He's also in statue. So it is my devotion, it is my qualification, that I can induce that statue to speak with me.
So next life you may be in China. Who can say? Because we are changing our bodies, you cannot say that we are not changing our bodies. Can you say that you are not changing your body? Yes, we are changing. When I was born, from the mother's womb, my body was so little. Now how I have changed my...? Where is that body? Where is that body when I was a child? Where is that body when I was a boy? Where is that body when I was a young man? I have got my photograph, my studentship. Oh, Swamiji, you were like this? Where is that body? Where it has gone? So we are changing, but I am the same man. I am thinking, "Oh, in my childhood, I was doing like this. Oh, in my youthhood, I was thinking like this. In my boyhood, I did so many things." Now where those days gone? If my body, everything has gone away? It is simply remembrance.
There are six symptoms of presentation of, presence of the soul. Growth is one of the important. So growth. As soon as the soul is out of this body, no more growth. If the child comes dead, oh, there will be no growth. Oh, the parents will say it is useless. Throw it. So similarly, Lord Kṛṣṇa gave the first example to Arjuna that, "Don't think that the spiritual spark which is within the body, due to his presence, the body is growing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, from youthhood to old age. So therefore, when this body becomes useless, imperceptibly, the soul gives up this body." Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). Just like we give up old dress and take another new dress, similarly, we accept another body.
There are eight million four hundred... This is our position. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As we are changing our body every moment, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, similarly, by changing this body we get another body. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. But we do not know what kind of body we are going to get next life. We are blind. This is called ignorance.
Generally, they are thinking this body is all in all there is no rebirth. No. The example is given here in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like a child has his future, another body, boyhood body. The boy has got his future, another body, young man's body. The young man has got another future, old man's body. Similarly the old man has got another body after death. Tatha dehāntara-praptiḥ.
We have discussed that this body is the field of activity. We are acting according to the body. I am the same person, but when I had my boyhood body or childhood body, I was acting differently. This child, they are acting now some way, but when they will get another body, they will act in a different way.
Similarly, not only this human form of body, but there are eight million four hundred thousand different types of bodies. We have explained several times. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi: "In the water there are nine hundred thousand different forms of body." How many do we know? We do not know all the details. We know there are different types of fishes, and say, a hundred thousand we have seen or experimented, the zoologist. But from the Vedic literature we understand that there are nine hundred thousand forms of body within the water.
Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures
Lord says that "Under My superintendence the material nature is working, and therefore so many wonderful changes are going on." So nature is working under the order of the Supreme Lord, and we are under the stringent laws of nature. Therefore we are obliged to carry out the natural sequences. Just like I already explained, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, youthhood to old age, these are natural laws. And after mature old age, you have to change this body and accept another body. So if we say that "I have no faith in the orders of the material nature. I avoid it," that is not possible. So therefore this dharma means you may have faith or may not have faith; you have to abide by the laws of nature. People therefore say, "As sure as death." I may think or you may think that "Don't care for death. There will be no death," but it will happen. Therefore the conclusion is that you cannot manufacture any laws of religion.
As dehāntaram, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, is dehāntaram, another body, similarly, old man, when the body is very old, it cannot be used anymore, or the supply ingredients is almost finished, then this body we give up; we accept another body. Now this body we are changing from multiforms of bodies, jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati kṛmayo rudra-saṅkyakāḥ, in this way 8,400,000 species of body we are changing. And this human form is the greatest benediction for the soul to understand Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa says if in this body we try to understand Kṛṣṇa, janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9), if we simply to understand Kṛṣṇa, how Kṛṣṇa comes, what is His business, paritrāṇāya sādhunaṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtaṁ dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya (BG 4.8), what kind of religious principles He re-establishes, sambhavāmi yuge yuge...
Oh, yes. Why not? Just like I had my small body. Then I had greater body, another body, another body. So every moment there is incarnation, reincarnation, every moment. That is medical science opinion. We are changing our bodily condition, material condition, but I am existing. Therefore, as I have passed over my childhood body to be incarnated into boyhood body, from boyhood I have reincarnated in a youthhood body. From youthhood body I reincarnated my old body. Similarly, after leaving this body I must have to accept another body. That I have already explained. Just like we change our dresses. So soul is eternal; the body is not permanent, temporary, and there are 8,400,000's of different types of bodies. We are migrating or transmigrating from one to another. This business, if we want to stop... Because we are eternal, our aims and object should be to attain that eternal status. That we can attain by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the movement. We are giving information to everyone that "If you want your eternal life, blissful life, life of knowledge, then you take to this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you'll have it."
So that perfection ideal is different of different persons. Somebody is thinking that "If I have a nice bungalow and a nice bank balance and nice wife and children and family, then my life is perfect." Somebody is thinking that "If I can make my country very happy in comparison to other countries, then it is happy..." So there are different types of perfection. But actual perfection is... They do not know. That is indicated, that I am... Because I have been described, I am the soul. I am not this body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Within this body there is the dehī. Dehī means the proprietor of this body. So that dehī, he is, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, he is changing from one body to another. One body... Just like we have got experience in this life also, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. As we are changing, past and present, therefore after this body is annihilated, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), I am not annihilated; I take another body. That body... What kind of body? That will depend on my work. Just like we become diseased. As we infect certain type of disease, we suffer from that disease. This is practical. Nature's law is there. If you infect some disease, you will have to suffer from that disease. Similarly, as we are creating our mentality by different types of activities, our next life will be according to that mentality. This is the law of nature.
There is a nice instruction by Prahlāda Mahārāja, a great devotee, boy devotee. And he was, from his boyhood, childhood, from his mother's womb, he became a devotee by the grace of Nārada Muni. That is the history. Now, he, he was five-years-old boy, and his father was too much materialistic. And he wanted that his son should be great politician, economist, and so on, so on, just like the materialists want. But the boy, he's a devotee. So father did not like the idea. So one day he called his boy, "My dear boy, come on." He came. A small boy. "Sit down on my lap. All right, my dear boy, will you kindly tell me what you have learned, the best thing in your school?" "Yes, my dear father, I shall tell you." So he said like this, tat sādhu manye 'sura-varya dehināṁ sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt, hitvātma, hitvā ātma-pātaṁ gṛham anda-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad-dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). "My dear father..." He's addressing his father, "O the best among the materialists."
Therefore it is called dhīrāṇām. Those who are sober, for them. Those who are rascals, not for them. The brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha sarvāśrama, āśrama, this is meant for the gentle class, not for the rascals. First of all, training period as brahmacārī. This brahmacārī, he is taught. He is taught to address all women as "mother." The brahmacārī goes to collect alms from door to door. Small boys. So how do they address? "Mother, kindly give us some alms." So immediately the household wife should come and give them. They will collect like that, for spiritual master. So if a boy is taught... Just like our these children are being taught chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are chanting. They cannot forget throughout life. Similarly, if a brahmacārī is taught from childhood, from boyhood address all woman as "mother," he cannot see otherwise. "S(he) is my mother." I remember, it is an example. Long ago, say, in 1925, long ago, so we were in a cinema house. So my eldest son, as soon as he would see one woman in the picture, "Here is another mother! Here is another mother!" (laughter) he would cry. Because a small child, he does not know any woman except mother. He knows everyone as "my mother." So if we train from the childhood that "You should treat all woman as mother," then where is the question of anomalies? No. There is no question.
As soon as the machine is stopped, the body is stopped. Immediately. We have experience. So these bodies are different bodies. Otherwise, a child does so many things foolishly and the elderly boy or a youth, he does not do so. Because the body is different. Why do they not understand? This is called ignorance. The body is different. Similarly, as everyone has got past, present and future... You are all young men. You had your past. You had a child's body or boy's body. In future you will get a body like me, aged. Similarly, I had my past. I was, I had a youth's body. Now I have got aged body. Then why not future, another body? This is very common conclusion. And it is given, it is confirmed. Not that we are imagining. It is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As the child is changing body to boyhood, boy is changing body to youthhood-dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13)—and the youth is changing body to old age body, similarly, the old also will change the body, again will get a small baby's body and again, again. That is the way of nature.
Similarly, this body, when it is not workable—it is old enough; the physiological function is not going on nicely—then there is change of body. Arjuna was advised that "Why you are lamenting for your old grandfather? Better kill him. He will get a new body. He will get a new body." Of course, it was spoken jokingly because grandfather... So, but the fact is that. Fact is that, that the, after the old body... Just like we have got several types of body: babyhood to childhood, child to boyhood, youth-hood, old body. Then after this, he is... Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). When we give up this body as dress, old and rotten, we get another. This is going on. But this is anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily we are undergoing this change of body. Anartha. If you want to stop it anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣāt, directly, immediately, what is that? Bhakti-yogam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). And Kṛṣṇa also confirms.
So Nanda Mahārāja was rich because he possessed nine lakhs of cows, not... And Kṛṣṇa had to take care of. Although Kṛṣṇa was Nanda Mahārāja's son, king's son, still He had to go... When He was young, five, six years old, He had to take care, not only Kṛṣṇa, but all His friends. That was the system. Small boys, they would take care of the calves, and after sixth year, they would take care of the cows. So in this way, fifteen, sixteen years, they would pass. Then they would... They may go to school, but the ordinary vaiśyas... Nanda Mahārāja happened to be vaiśya, not kṣatriya. His father, Kṛṣṇa's father, was Vasudeva. He was kṣatriya. His uncle, Kaṁsa, he was kṣatriya. He belonged to the kṣatriya family because born as the son of Vasudeva, but because He was transferred in His..., just after His birth to Nanda Mahārāja, so in the boyhood, in childhood, he remained a vaiśya.
Just like we are accepting in this life one body after another. The child is giving up his childhood body, accepting the boyhood body, The boy is giving up his boyhood body, accepting youthhood body. Similarly, this body of old age, when giving up, natural conclusion is that I will have to accept another body. Again childhood body. Just like there are seasonal changes. After summer, there is spring, or after spring there is summer, after summer, there is fall, there is, after fall, there is winter. Or after day, there is night, after night, there is day. As these, these are cycles one after another, similarly, we are changing body one after another. And natural conclusion is that after changing this body I'll get another body. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19).
So kanyā-dāna. She must be given in charity to somebody. So, in the pulina brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa, very respectable community, so it was very difficult to find out a suitable son-in-law. Therefore, formerly one gentleman may become a businessman simply by marrying. In my boyhood, when I was a student, a school student, so I had one class friend, he took me to his home. So I saw one gentleman was smoking, and he told me, "Do you know this gentleman?" So I asked, "Oh, how can I know?" That "He is my aunt's husband, and my aunt is the sixty-fourth wife of this gentleman." Sixty-fourth. So, these pulina brāhmaṇas, they, their business was like that. Marry somewhere, stay there some days, again go to another wife, again go to another wife, again go to another. Simply going to the wife, that is business. This was a social system we have seen. Now these things are now gone. Nobody will marry the husband who has married sixty-four times. (laughter) But (laughing) it was there. So, son-in-law, in that case, is very much honored. There are many stories. We should not waste our time in that way. (laughter)
But you are eternal. About you, you have heard from the śāstra, and you are experiencing that "I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man. So my body, childhood body, boyhood body, youthhood body is gone. This body is not that body." Nobody can say, "I have got a different body." But I know that I had a childhood body, I had a boyhood body, youthhood body. That I know. So I am eternal, and this body is not eternal. It is changing. It is very simple thing. Why people cannot understand it? Very simple. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam, antavanta ime dehāḥ. This is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. This body is antavat. It will be finished. But that thing which is spreading all over the body, avināśi, that will not be annihilated. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. That consciousness, the consciousness is spread all over the body, and Kṛṣṇa says that that thing which is spread all over the body, consciousness, that is immortal.
After all, you have to change this body. Change... This is... Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As we are changing this body from childhood, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood... This is practical. You are not the same body as you had your body in the womb of your mother. That body is gone. Now daily changing; every moment we are changing body. Advancing age means I am changing body, you are changing body. So it is very easy to understood that we are changing our body. But I know, you know, every one of us, that "I had such and such body." You remember that you had a child's body. You were playing like that. When you see another child, you say, "Oh, I was also a child like him, and I was doing like this." But where is that body? That is gone. Now you have got another body. This example is given in the Bhagavad-gītā. So as you are changing body, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), similarly, after giving up this body, you have to accept another body. This is the logic, and any sane man can understand.
That was done in the case of Mahārāja Veṇa. Mahārāja Veṇa, he was upstart. He was born of a low-class mother, so he become so upstart that in his boyhood he was playing with friends, and if there was some quarrel, he would kill such friend. So his father became so disgusted, tried to reform him in so many ways, but he could not be reformed. The father, Mahārāja Aṅga, he left the kingdom all of a sudden, being disgusted. Then the brāhmaṇas asked the king that "You are not ruling very nicely. You have stopped all religious functions. This is not good for the people, neither for you." They first of all tried to pacify him by nice instruction. But the king said, "You brāhmaṇas, you do not know me very well. I am God" and this and that. Then he was killed by the brāhmaṇas. You know that Jāmadagnya, Paraśurāma, when he saw that the kings were not responsible, he killed the whole kṣatriya family for twenty-one times. So that was the government. If the brāhmaṇas would see that the kṣatriyas, the kings were not ruling properly according to the Vedic principle, sometimes they would kill the king.
So at the time of death, somehow or other, he remembered Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa. So he was very fond of his youngest child, and the Yamarāja, not directly, by sending his men, Yamadūta... So they are very fierceful. So at the time of death this Ajāmila saw fierceful creatures, very odd-looking. So he was very much afraid, "Who are they?" So he thought, because he was very much affectionate to his youngest child... So his name was Nārāyaṇa. He called him, "Nārāyaṇa, please come here. I am very much afraid." But just see the power of chanting the name of Nārāyaṇa. He immediately become eligible to go to Vaikuṇṭha. He did not mean Nārāyaṇa also isn't said. But Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, he gives his commentation that he remembered real Nārāyaṇa after reference to the context. When he called for his child Nārāyaṇa, he remembered real Nārāyaṇa. Because in his boyhood, when he was... Up to his youthhood, he was very sincere devotee of Nārāyaṇa, a son of a brāhmaṇa. But he fell under the clutches of a prostitute. Therefore, after mixing with the prostitute, his all spiritual activities stopped. That is natural.
That is not very good intelligence. You drink the blood of the cow by natural process, which turns into white milk. You'll get better brain, better strength. Therefore cow protection is very essential in Vedic civilization. Therefore we offer respect Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa is the benefactor of cows and the brāhmaṇas." Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. Go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. Kṛṣṇa is well-wisher first-go, cow. You'll find Kṛṣṇa always with cows. Here is Kṛṣṇa's picture, you see how He's loving the cow and the calf. He's personally teaching from His childhood, from His boyhood. So we should follow. If we want to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, we must give... The calf is also seeing to the face of Kṛṣṇa for protection, and Kṛṣṇa is giving protection, "Yes, I'll give you protection."
As we are changing our body in this life from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, then old man, then we give up this body, Kṛṣṇa says that similarly, as I was a child, now I have got a different body, similarly, when I give up this body, I'll get another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ.
The real business is that we have to withdraw our attraction for this material... That they do not know. I am a spirit soul. Being attracted by this material nature, I am now encaged within this body, and I am changing this body. Just like I am changing this body from boyhood to childhood, childhood to, from childhood to boyhood, from youthhood. In this way, I have been entangled in this transmigration of the soul. This is my problem. Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, says, "Real problem is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9)." This is not problem. Nowadays they have discovered so many problems. But actual problem—janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi—they are not very much serious. Therefore they have been described here as pramattaḥ, madmen. He does not know what is the real problem, but he is very busy with the superficial problems. Therefore śāstra says that these people, blind, they do not know what is the problem. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). My real self-interest is to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is my real self-interest. They do not know. They want to live here, which is described as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), simply a place of miserable conditions and repetition of birth, death, old age and disease.
Icchatā abhayam. So Śukadeva Gosvāmī is giving instruction to Mahārāja Parīkṣit what is to be done at the point of death. We have already discussed this point, that we must know the responsibility of our next life. Just like a child is given education for the next life, to become youthful, to get into higher education, admission. Then a youth is given higher education for better life in future. That is natural. Every one is expecting future prospect. Similarly, we, every one of us, we are changing our body exactly the same way as the child is changing his body to boyhood, the boy is changing his body to youthhood, the youth is changing his body to old body. Similarly, after old age, there is next stage is death.
That is described here. Janma-lābhaḥ paraḥ puṁsām. You must make a cultural institution where people may take education how to remember Nārāyaṇa at the time of death. That is required. Otherwise useless. What is the value? You waste your so much time to construct a very nice house, but at the time of death, you could not remember Nārāyaṇa. You remember your very nice friend, dog. Then what is the value? What is the value? They do not understand this, that there is life after death. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "As you are changing your body from childhood to boyhood, boyhood..." It is very simple philosophy. The rascal will not understand. I am changing my body. You may say "Growth or..." But it is changed. I had a childhood body; that body is different from my this present body. It is changed. Therefore I have already changed my body so many ways, so many times. And I change my body after this body is no more useful. That is going on. No more useful.
The evidence of death is... Just like in our past life we had some body and we died. We have got another body. Kṛṣṇa does not die means He does not change His body. Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). If He would have died, then He could not recollect in His mind the incident which happened millions of years ago. He says, vivasvān, proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha. When Arjuna inquired that "You say that You instructed this Bhagavad-gītā, this science, to Vivasvān long, long, millions of years ago. How can I believe it?" Therefore He said, "I remember it. You don't remember. Therefore I do not die. You die." This is it. One who can remember, he does not die. Just like I... So long I can remember of my childhood activities, boyhood activities, I have not died. Is it not? Although the body is gone. This is the evidence that Kṛṣṇa does not die. Try to understand this point. Death means forgetting everything. That is death. But if you can remember, that is not death. It is clear?
Yes. So I change my body, but I remember that I was a child, I was a boy, I was playing like this. I was doing like this. My mother was chastising me like this. Therefore I am not dead. But the body is gone. So this is the distinction between death and life. If you can remember, then you have not died. And if you forget, that is death. But the ātmā is permanent, eternal. So Kṛṣṇa does not die. Otherwise, how He could remember? This is the reason. You try to understand all this reasoning. You have to preach. This is the reason. Because Kṛṣṇa says that "I remember everything," therefore Kṛṣṇa does not die. Is it established or not? Yes. You say... My personal example... Because I remember all my childhood, boyhood activities, therefore I am not dead. Nobody says that "You are dead man," although my body has changed, because I can remember. And as soon as I shall forget, that is death.
So they are becoming more and more entangled. Unfortunately, they do not know that there is life after death, but they do not know what kind of life is going to happen next after death. They are blind, andha. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The leaders are also blind. And they are leading them. They are also blind. Especially in this age, the human society is in great danger. They do not care what is next. But there is next life. We get it, information, from Kṛṣṇa: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ there is. How you can deny it? The authority says. And we have got experience also. We are having dehāntara from boyhood to childhood, from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood. In this way, we have changed so many bodies, dehāntara. This is called dehāntara. Similarly, after death, there will be dehāntara. It is very reasonable, but people do not believe it.
So we have to push on Kṛṣṇa consciousness with great difficulty. When I went to America, I went by ship. So it stopped at the, what is that, Commonwealth Pier in Boston. So I was thinking that if "I say that 'No illicit sex, no meat-eating, and no intoxication, and no gambling,' so these people will immediately say, 'Please go home.' " (laughter) Yes. That is the position. It is... These are their daily affairs. These are their daily affairs in Western countries. And if you want to make them stop these things, they will think that "This man is lunatic." But by Kṛṣṇa's grace these boys, these girls, they agreed. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. I did not expect that they will agree. In India they do not agree, and they are accustomed from childhood, from boyhood. So how they will... But Kṛṣṇa's grace is so nice, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy is so great, that they agreed, and they are pushing on this movement on this principle.
Dhīra, one who is cool-headed. Not a passionate(?), crazy fellow, but cool-headed. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. He can understand that as one passes through different bodies, baby's to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, then old age, similarly, this body, when it will be no more existing, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), the body may be destroyed, but the soul will continue to exist. This is the Vedic principle of knowledge. This is called spiritual knowledge. Spiritual knowledge does not mean anything else. To understand the spiritual, constitutional position of the living entity, that is called spiritual. And at the present moment, by constitution, my position is that I never die or I never take birth. But because I have accepted this material body, therefore I have to change. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). Just like we change our garments. I am putting on this garment. When it is old or not usable, I give it up. I accept another coat or shirt. Similarly, we have got coat and shirt over our position as soul. The shirt is the subtle body: mind, intelligence, and ego. And the gross coat is made of five elements: earth, water, fire, air, sky. In these two coverings, I, the soul, I am existing.
When Kṛṣṇa says that within this body there is the living soul and the living soul is transmigrating... Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As we are getting different bodies in this life also, from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to old body, then what is after old body? Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: you get another body. But we do not know what kind of body we are getting. Where is that science? Where is that education, that there is dehāntara-prāptiḥ, there is transmigration of the soul, and there are so many different types of body? Suppose in this body I am very comfortably situated, I am a very big man, or very great minister, politician, everything is all right—but in the next life, if I am going to get the body of a dog, who can check it? Nature's law will go on.
Within our life we see in our childhood, our boyhood we have seen rice was selling at three rupees four annas, first class rice. My father used to purchase, fifteen mounds of rice at a time, and the cost was three rupees four annas. Just like cumin seeds, so fine. First-class rice. Now that first-class rice, at least in India, no more available, because all first-class rice is exported. Indian government wants exchange, they want to get machine. So in exchange of machine, they are sending all nice foodstuff outside. Even killing the cows, they are sending meat, skin. With Russia, they have got agreement.
As you are associating with the different modes of material nature, the prakṛti, material nature, by pulling your ear, "You'll come on here. Take this body." "No, I don't want." "No, that is not your discretion. Now you have infected, you see. You must take this body." This risk is there. And just to forget ourself we sometimes say, "No, there is no life after death." Why there is no life after death? You were a child. The child became a boy, the boy became a young man, the young man became an old man, and what is the old man? He must have a body, next body. That is not simply mental speculation. This is confirmed by the most exalted authority, by Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As you have changed your body in so many ways from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, then, similarly, dehāntara-prāptiḥ.
Now, because the soul is there, therefore the body is changing. Everyone knows that he was a child. I know, you know. I remember my childhood body or my boyhood body, my youthhood body. I am old man. I remember them, that "I was doing as a young man like this. I was doing as a boy like this. I was jumping. Now I cannot jump. Why? The body has changed." The body has changed. It is very good logic. The same "I" am there. I was a boy. I was jumping. Now I am old man. I have changed my body. I cannot do that. I will have to take the stick. Because the body has changed. So where is the fallacy of logic? It is very clearly... And the authority says... Kṛṣṇa says, not an ordinary person. He says, "Within this body there is the soul, and as on account of the soul, the body is changing shape from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, from youthhood to old man's body. Similarly, when this body will be useless, he will accept another body." This simply truth one has to understand first of all before anything spiritual knowledge. If one cannot understand that the spirit soul is different from this body, then he is cat and dog. He is not human being.
Now, Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The spirit soul will change this body, as it has already changed from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood. That I already explained. So what type of body I am going to accept next life? I am not going to die. I am simply changing body. Just like we change dress. If one dress is torn or old, we change another dress. Exactly like that. This body we change when it is no more usable. We have got our spiritual body. And they say the spirit is formless. No. Now if this body is my dress, then how the body has got these hands and legs? Just like because you have got actually hands and legs, therefore your coat and pant has got hands and legs. If you have no form, then how the coat and pant is made? The coat, the pant has got legs because actually I have got leg. The coat has hands or body because actually I have got body. So the argument that the spirit is formless, that is bogus. Unless I have got form, how the dress body is made with hands and legs and heads and everything?
So if we misuse this human form of life only like animals, eating, sleeping, sex and fearing, then we are spoiling our life. We must prepare next life. If we don't, then after death we have to go to the Yamarāja, and he will decide what kind of next body... Body will change. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad... Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). After death you have to change the body. As you are changing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, similarly this old body, when it is no more usable, that means death. But the subtle body, mind, intelligence, that is... We have got proof. At night this body is silent, but your mind, intelligence and ego takes you somewhere. You dream that "I have come to here." Sometimes we dream, "I am flying in the sky," or gone to some forest or some friend's house or so many things. "I am talking with a beautiful girl or beautiful man."
The government is appreciating, the public is appreciating. Many fathers come and say, "Oh, Swamijī, we are so fortunate that you have come. You have saved our sons and daughters." And they fall flat to offer me obeisances, although he is not my disciple. And those are directly father and mother, oh, they come to congratulate me in any way because they understand that "Here Swamijī is giving our sons and daughters spiritual life." They hope. They were hopeless. They were confused. So that is not my credit. I am simply presenting the right thing without..., Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without malinterpretation, spoiling time and energy. Everywhere I say like that, that "I have no credit, but...," because the only credit is that I do not adulterate. Now here, you see, the Bhāgavata says that naṣṭa-sadācāro dāsyāḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. Because this man, this brāhmaṇa boy, Ajamila, in his boyhood... He became attached to the prostitute when he was about twenty years old, young man, and he lost his brahminical qualification. Naṣṭa-sadācāro. But the Bhāgavata says... Now, at the present moment, there are so many so-called brāhmaṇas. They have no sadācāra. Still they are passing as brāhmaṇa. Illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating—everything is there, but he is a brāhmaṇa. Is it not?
Evaṁ vartamāno 'jño mṛtyu-kāla upasthite. When it was time for death, mṛtyu-kāla upasthite, matiṁ cakāra tanaye bāle nārāyaṇa. So the benefit was, because he was chanting the name of Nārāyaṇa in connection with his child's name, naturally at the time of his death he was thinking of the Nārāyaṇa child, the name. Viśvanātha Cakravartī has commented on this point that this Nārāyaṇa, thinking of the name of the child, immediately reminded him of the service he was doing according to his father's direction. He was also, in the childhood or in his boyhood, he was engaged in the service of the Lord, Nārāyaṇa. According to Vedic civilization, therefore, a child—he may be a king's son or a poor man's son—must go to gurukula and live for some time under the training of the spiritual master to be very thickly connected with Nārāyaṇa and Kṛṣṇa. The āśrama... Just like we have got this Kṛṣṇa conscious āśrama, there is rules and regulations that one should rise early in the morning, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and so many duties are there. They are all in connection with Kṛṣṇa. If a child is trained up in that way, then he becomes automatically Kṛṣṇa conscious.
So when he was too much afraid of this Yamadūta, unconsciously he chanted the holy name of Nārāyaṇa. So somehow or other he remembered Nārāyaṇa. Some commentator says that when he chanted "Nārāyaṇa," then all his reaction of sinful life immediately disappeared and he remembered real Nārāyaṇa. Because he, in his boyhood, was trained up as a Vaiṣṇava by his father, so some... There is big comments on this incidence. Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura has written three or four pages about this. So his opinion is that as soon as he chanted the holy name of Nārāyaṇa, immediately he remembered real Nārāyaṇa. That this child Nārāyaṇa... "I'm calling my child, how he'll be able to save me from the hands of this Yamadūta." He remembered that "Nārāyaṇa, if He kindly helps me, then I can be saved." Immediately there was response. Immediately there is response. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajanty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that at the time of death, whatever your mental condition is, that will act.
A dog, he cannot go to a guru. That is not possible. But a human being, he must. Abhigacchet. It must. It is not optional, that "I may go, or I may not." No, you must. That is the injunction. That is the Vedic injunction. Ācārya-paramparā. Evam paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Rājarṣayaḥ. Formerly the king was responsible, responsible king. Responsible government means responsible king. So what is the responsibility of the king? The responsibility that all the citizens, all the inhabitants of the state, they should live very comfortably and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the responsibility of the king. He has to see that everyone is free from anxiety, everyone is feeling secure, everyone has no disease, no mental anxiety, and in peaceful condition they are executing bhāgavata-dharma. That is real dharma, bhāgavata-dharma. Bhāgavata-dharma means to understand the science of God. That is Bhāgavata. And it is advised, kaumāram ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha. Kaumāra, from the very boyhood, childhood, one should be instructed and educated about bhāgavata-dharma.
Guest (2): How do you understand that the end of the world?
Prabhupāda: No, first of all, your first question should be answered.
Guest (2): So he's saying that he has got the message about reincarnation. He understand now.
Prabhupāda: Now, it is clear. It is clear that your childhood body is dead, your boyhood body is dead, and you are still, have a body. This is incarnation.
Guest (2): He understand now.
Guest (3): What he wants to know is, when the soul leaves the body completely, what happens after that?
Prabhupāda: This soul is eternal. It is... The soul is covered by two kinds of body. One is subtle body. Just like you have got your mind; I have got my mind. Do you see your mind? Do I see your mind? (second guest translates into French) So the soul is carried by two kinds of body. One body is this gross, made of earth, water, air, sky, like that. And the other... They are like shirt and coat. This is the coating, and there is another body, shirt, which is made of mind, intelligence, and ego. So when this gross body is finished, the subtle body is there. So at the time of your death the mental condition will carry you to a similar body. (Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa translates) (break) This mental body you do not see. Therefore you say that this man is dead. It is not dead. The gross body is changed, and the mental body carries him to another gross body. (second guest translates) Any other question? That's all right. (end)
Just we were experiencing. This child who is playing, he is now, he has got a small body. Similarly, when he will get a body like his father, he has to change so many bodies, so many bodies. So the body will change but he, the soul, will remain the same. And now, at the childhood, or in the womb of his mother, or when the body is just like his father, or when the body is just like his grandfather—the same thing, soul, will continue. So therefore soul is permanent and the body is changing. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ (BG 2.18). This body is temporary. Temporary. Either this childhood body or boyhood body or youthhood body or mature body or old body, they are all temporary. Every moment, every second, we are changing. But the soul within the body, that is permanent. So this body, Prahlāda Mahārāja says, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma: "Now, after many many births..."
I don't think in any university throughout the whole world there is such educational department where this science is handled. The soul. Whether I am this body or I'm not the body. I am not this body; that is the fact. The example is given. What is that? Dehino asmin dehe, in this body there is the proprietor, the soul. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Within this body, there is proprietor. And he's changing bodies. Just like the same soul in a childhood body, in a boyhood body, in a youth-hood body. Then again in a body like me, an old body. So all the previous bodies, they are now finished. Although I know I am soul, I know that I possessed a childhood body, I possessed a boyhood body, I possessed a youthhood body, that those bodies are not existing. They are finished. But I am existing. I know. Therefore this is very simply formula Kṛṣṇa gives. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). This body is changing, but the soul is eternal. Nityo śāśvato yaṁ purāṇo. Although it is very, very old. Because soul is the part and parcel of God. As God is existing eternally, similarly, the soul is also existing eternally. This is a great science.
Harikeśa: Translation: "In tender childhood age, when everyone is bewildered, he passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, being engaged in sporting and playful things, another ten years. In this way twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when a person becomes invalid and he is unable to execute even material activities, he passes another twenty years wastefully."
Prabhupāda:
- mugdhasya bālye kaiśore
- krīḍato yāti viṁśatiḥ
- jarayā grasta-dehasya
- yāty akalpasya viṁśatiḥ
- (SB 7.6.7)
So fifty years out of one hundred years, fifty years wasted by sleeping. And then balance fifty years, twenty years in childhood and youthhood, sporting, playing; another twenty years in old age... Jarayā grasta. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). These are inevitable. As birth is inevitable, death is inevitable, similarly, old age is inevitable. So in this way our time is wasted because we do not know how valuable this human form of life is. There is no such education. They think human life is as cheap as dog's life, but factually it is not. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19).
Ajāmila, first of all, he was a brahmacārī, brāhmaṇa, very well behaved brāhmaṇa, learned everything, but due to bad association he fell down. But Kṛṣṇa gave him the opportunity, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, na me bhakta praṇaśyati. If once one has sincerely become the pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, that will never go in vain. So Kṛṣṇa saw this Ajāmila in his childhood and boyhood and youthhood a devotee, so He gave him the chance. At last, he had ten sons. The tenth son was named as Nārāyaṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa's policy, that "This rascal is forgetting Me, so I'll give him a child whose name is Nārāyaṇa." So, with reference to his son, he was chanting "Nārāyaṇa." "Nārāyaṇa, please come here, my dear son. Nārāyaṇa, please take this food." So in this way, his account was being credited, "Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa, Nārāyaṇa." You see? So therefore he got the salvation. Similarly, if we simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and follow these principles, our life is successful. This is called ajñāta-sukṛti.
Therefore, I am the chief, adhyakṣaḥ. I am the chief controller. So I am... This "I am," it is very easy to understand. Any intelligent man can understand. So there are so many yogis. They are trying to understand, "What I am?" This is "I am." It can be understood in a few seconds if you are intelligent enough. There is no question of prolonging simply to understand "What I am?" You are this. So only to understand that if I am not this body, which is dreaming, which is awakened, which is sleeping, so many conditions... It is changing from boyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So then I have to understand that "If I am eternal then what is my eternal business? Now I am engaged with this temporary business. Because I am born in this land, America, so America has become my country. So I am called for going to Vietnam. Because I am born American, I have to go. But if I am not this body, I am something else, eternal, then what is my eternal engagement? This is my bodily engagement." Everything is our bodily engagement. So Cai... Prahlāda Mahārāja asking us, tā yenaivānubhūyante so 'dhyakṣaḥ puruṣaḥ paraḥ. That puruṣa, that personality, is transcendental.
This body should be the last acceptance of material body. That is success. Otherwise, if you continue, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ... (BG 2.13). These foolish people, they do not know that dehāntara, there is change of body. Change of body is there already. You are experiencing, but they do not believe that after death there is body. Why not? If you have got experience in the life—"I have passed through so many changes of body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, then middle age and old body"—then what is next? Why do you finish here? It is common logic. Why should you finish here? There must be body. This is real reasoning. And Kṛṣṇa confirms it. Not only your contemplation. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "In this way you'll have another body." The Kṛṣṇa, the great authority, He says, from whom Brahmā, the first creature, he learned. Tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye. Kṛṣṇa, Vāsudeva... Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. He... Tene brahma hṛdā ādi-kavaye. He taught this Vedic literature to the heart of Brahmā. He can teach you through the heart also because He is sitting there. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe (BG 18.61).
We are traveling, going through eight million four hundred thousand species of life. Sometimes in different species of life in different types of planets and different types of body, we are passing through. We do not know that. We know, we know even in this life we can understand that I have passed over so many bodies. I had my childhood body, I had my boyhood body, I had my youthhood body, now I have got a different body which is old man's body. Similarly, I shall give up this body and I will have to accept another body by the laws of nature. Tatha dehāntara-prāptir. As we are changing our body even in this present life, similarly, after giving up this body, I have to accept another body. Tathā dehāntara prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). But the problem is what kind of body I am going to have in my next life. That is to be thought over.
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
Yes. Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, Kṛṣṇa says: mṛ tyuḥ sarva-haraś ca aham. At the... By death, everything is taken away by Kṛṣṇa. So the modern civilization, they do not believe in the next birth. That is the basic mistake of the present civilization, that we get information that tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dehāntaram. Just like we are transmigrating, even in this span of life, from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood, from youthhood to old age body. Therefore it is natural to conclude that after this old body's finished, then we get another body, transmigration of the soul. But there is no education, no enlightenment about this transmigration of the soul. But we can, if we think, ponder very deeply on this matter, how transmigration of the soul is taking place, and it is authorized, authorized statement of Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir.
Yes. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Just Ajāmila. Ajāmila in his boyhood, he was very sincere brāhmaṇa. He was conducting devotional service under the direction of his father. But in youthhood, he fell down. He became a victim of a prostitute. He forgot everything. He became a rogue, drunkard, meat-eater, woman-hunter, all fallen down. But at the end of life, when he was afraid of the Yamadūtas, out of fearfulness he called for his youngest son whose name was Nārāyaṇa. Because when you are in danger, naturally... Just like a child, cries for the mother. Because mother is the only... Similarly affection is there. Similarly this Ajāmila asked for the youngest child: "Nārāyaṇa." But immediately he remembered that Nārāyaṇa whom he served in his boyhood. So immediately the Nārāyaṇa messengers came and saved him. Svalpam apy. He, he executed very little service in his boyhood as a devotee. That saved him from the greatest danger. He was being dragged out by the men of Yamarāja, but the Viṣṇudūtas came and protected him and took him to Vaikuṇṭha. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. By by chance, he remembered Nārāyaṇa because he executed Nārāyaṇa's service. Then he was saved. Go on.
There are so many things that, by understanding Kṛṣṇa, simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, you, your life is successful. The life, success of life is to stop this repetition of birth and death. That we also do not know. There is repetition of birth and death. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir. Kṛṣṇa says in the beginning, asmin dehe dehi. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir. Kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Those who are actually educated, sober, they can understand that, that "Here is a man who's supposed to be dead, but he's not dead. He has transferred this body. That's all." Tathā dehāntara-prāptir. As I am transferring my body from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, youthhood to old body, similarly, as I have changed so many bodies, where is the difficulty to understand that after giving up this body, I'll get another body? And Kṛṣṇa is confirming. All the Vedic literature confirming: tathā dehāntara-prāptir. Another body. But we must know what kind of body I'm going to get. That is intelligence.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
So the progress of the material world... Progress, no... Progress means... In the material objects progress means... Just like a flower: it is in the bud, then it fructifies. That is progress. Again dwindles and vanishes. Ṣaḍ-vikāra. Just like your body, my body—progress means from babyhood, childhood, boyhood, youthhood. That is, up to that, youthhood, progress. Then as soon as youthhood passed, old age comes in, then dwindling, then finish. That means janma-sthiti-pralaya. It comes into existence, then it remains for some time, and again pralaya, vanishes, vanquish. This is the way of material existence. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). It takes place... Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra, Brahman means the original source of appearance, maintenance, and disappearance.
Our death means to transmigrate to another body. Just like from childhood we are transmigrating to another body, boyhood; from boyhood we are transmigrating to another body, youth-hood; and from youth-hood we are transferred to another body, old body. Similarly, when this body will not be any more workable, then we shall transmigrate to another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Those who are dhīra—dhīra means sober, thoughtful—they are not bewildered. But those who are not dhīra, adhīra... There are two classes of men: dhīra and adhīra. Dhīra means one who is spiritually situated. He is called dhīra or brahma-bhūtaḥ, prasannātmā (BG 18.54), dhīra. And one who is not spiritually situated, materially situated, means on the platform of bodily conception of life, then he is adhīra, he is restless, from this platform to that platform, this platform to that platform. This is going on.
And when Kṛṣṇa personally comes, He can be seen in two features, bālya, paugaṇḍa: His childhood and boyhood, up to sixteenth year. That is the real feature of Kṛṣṇa, kiśora. And further features, that is expansion of Kṛṣṇa, Vāsudeva. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19).
Festival Lectures
So spiritual knowledge is beyond the scope of our sense speculation. Beyond the scope. Just like when a soul, a spiritual spark only, leaves this body, you cannot see. Therefore, atheistic class of men, they speculate, "There may be a soul; there may not be soul." Or, "The bodily function was going like this; now it stopped. The blood corpuscles now cease. It is no more red; it is white; therefore life..." These are speculation. This is not actual knowledge. Actual knowledge you get from the authority, Kṛṣṇa. He says, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati. Just like the soul is passing through different stages. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Deha, deha means this body. Asmin dehe, in this body, there is dehi. Dehi means who is the owner of this body. That is soul. That is passing through childhood, boyhood, babyhood, youthhood, old age. Everyone, you can perceive that you were a child, you were a baby, you were a boy. Now you are young man or old man. So you are there. So as you are passing through different types of bodies, similarly, when you give up this body you accept another body. What is the difficulty? Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). There is no question of becoming astonished, how transmigration of the self, soul, takes place. The vivid example is there. Simply you require little intelligence.
Arrival Addresses and Talks
The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is little different from... Why little? Completely different from ordinary movement. This is spiritual movement. This movement begins when one understands that he is not this body. (break) We are under the bodily concept of life. Ninety-nine percent people think that one is this material body. But that is not the fact. The fact is that within this body there is the spirit soul. The example is given in the Bhagavad-gītā that because the spirit soul is there within the body, therefore the body is changing from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood, then middle-aged, then old man. This body is changing. But if the child is born dead—that means without the soul—then the body does not change. We have got practical experience. A dead child, if you keep the body in a preservative way, it will not grow. So long the soul is there, the bodily changes are there. From the womb of the mother, the embryo, the child, grows daily. Why? Because the soul is there. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to understand this fact first of all, that body is superficial. Just like you are dressed with your shirt and coat. The shirt and coat is not important, but the person who is putting on the shirt and coat, he is important. Unfortunately, modern education is giving stress on the outward, external body or to the dress and not to... They do not understand who is the person who is dressed or who has got this body. This is the first lesson of spiritual understanding.
Initiation Lectures
The Absolute Truth is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Absolute Truth is a person like us, but He is the Supreme Person. That is the Vedic information. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Nitya means eternal. We living entities, we are all eternal. That is very nicely explained in Bhagavad-gītā. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Those who under the impression that after finishing annihilation of this body, everything is finished, they are not in perfect knowledge. The living entity continues to exist either in this body or in another body. Just like very simple example, we can understand. All of us sitting here, we had a small baby body. I existed, you existed, in that baby body, but that body is not now existing, but I am existing. I know that "I existed in a baby body, I existed in a boyhood body, I existed in a youthhood body. Now I am existing in this old age body. Similarly, when this body is finished, I shall again exist in another body." This is the right conclusion. Therefore na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). After the destruction of this body, ātmā, or the spirit soul, is not destroyed or annihilated. He continues.
General Lectures
The Bhagavad-gītā says, avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. That consciousness which is spread all over your body, that is eternal. How it is eternal? That also you can understand by practical experience. Just like in your childhood, there was consciousness. When you were in the womb of your mother, of course, at a certain stage there was consciousness. In your boyhood, there was consciousness. In your youthhood, there is consciousness, and as you make progress, in your old age, there is also consciousness. Now, your body is changing but consciousness is continuing. That you cannot deny. Therefore the Bhagavad-gītā says, avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. That consciousness is eternal, and that does not vanquish with the destruction of the body. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Now as soon as this consciousness is over, the body is called dead body. Now what is this consciousness? This consciousness is the symptom of the soul. That is... Just like in a light, in a fire, there is distribution of heat and light. Similarly, the spirit soul being present in your body, the consciousness is spread all over your body. This is the fact. Now this consciousness is being carried. Just like from your childhood this consciousness is being carried. From childhood body to boyhood body to youthhood body, the consciousness is continuing. Similarly, this consciousness will also carry you in another body, and that transformation or transmigration from one body to another, it is called death. Death means when this body cannot be carried any more, the consciousness has to be transferred to another new body. Just like when your garment is too old, it has to be changed; similarly, when this material body is too old to carry on, then this consciousness is transferred to another body and you begin another life. This is the process of nature.
Just like within this body there is soul, and it is changing bodies, from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood, from youthhood to old age. And then again, when the body is useless, no more, cannot be maintained, then we will give up this body and accept another body just like we change our dress." That is going on. So I am eternal. Although I am old man, I can understand what I was in my childhood, in my boyhood, youthhood. So body has changed, but I am existing. This is very simple thing. Everyone can understand. Therefore I, as spirit soul, I am not body. Body is changing; I am different from body. Therefore change of this body does not mean I am finished. I am continuing. Therefore I should be responsible: "What kind of body I am going to accept next?" That is my responsibility. If you don't take this responsibility, "What kind of body...?" It may be, if I am of doggish mentality, my next life will be just a dog because I will have to accept the dress of a dog. And if I am evolving my godly mentality, then I'll have to accept, or I will accept another body just like God. So that is in my hands.
As you are changing your body even in this present life, you remember that you were a child, you were a boy... I remember I was a child... I was a baby. I still remember in my babyhood I was lying down on my elder sister's lap. She was knitting. I can still remember. So, we can remember our childhood, our boyhood, our youth, but I am the same, the body is changing. It is a fact. Similarly, when these bodies ultimately lapse or change, I am accepting another body. That is a fact. This is called transmigration of the soul. As we are changing our dress, similarly we are changing our body. And there are 8,400,000 of different kinds of bodies.
"As the living spark, the soul, is changing from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood, from youthhood to old age..." This is a fact. Everyone knows. Similarly, to change to another body is a fact. And dhīras tatra na muhyati: "Any intelligent man is not surprised." He doesn't say that there is no life after death. There is. Now that life after death may be in one of the so many, 8,400,000's of bodies. There is no guarantee what kind of a body you are going to get. In our last meeting we explained that from Bhagavad-gītā, that yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). Ante, at the time of death, as his mental position is there, he gets the, another body, similar. There are many historical references. As I told you the other day, that King Bhārata, he was very much elevated and very great soul.
Su-medhasaḥ, this Sanskrit word, means intelligent persons. Medhas. Medhas means brain substance, one who has got very good brain substance. The brain substance... According to psychology, there is difference of brain substance. Not the brain substance equally, of equal weight, in every man's brain. You know, you are all educated students, psychology students. In our boyhood when we were a student in psychology class, Dr. Urquhart explained this brain substance. The man has got the highest brain substance—not all—up to sixty-four ounce. And woman has got the highest up to thirty-six or thirty-four. Of course, we are not discussing that point. Our movement is a spiritual movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is beyond brain. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ, manasas tu parā buddhir (BG 3.42). So there are different platforms and status of consciousness. Bodily consciousness means sensual consciousness. Above that, there is mental consciousness, speculative, philosophical, poetic. Above that, intellectual consciousness. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness—above intellectual consciousness.
In the Bhagavad-gītā the consciousness is stated: avināśi. Avināśi means cannot, never dies. Always living. Avināśi tu tad viddhi. You just try to understand that thing without always living. What is that? Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam—by which your whole body is spread by air(?). And anywhere of your body, that consciousness is spread. And that substance, consciousness, is always living. When you leave this body this consciousness goes to another body. Just like the air passes, the flavor the air carries from one garden to another place. Similarly, this consciousness will carry you to another body after your death. After you leave this body... Just like we are changing our consciousness also from childhood consciousness to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, and the old age. The consciousness is carrying me although the body is changing. Similarly, when you change this body, the consciousness will carry you to another body. That consciousness is always living. It is never dead. (break) Because they don't take it.
Asmin dehe, in this body, there is one thing which is the proprietor of the body. And that proprietor of the body, due to the presence of the proprietor of the body, the body is changing from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood, from youthhood to old age. And when it is too old, when it is not useful any more, you have to change another body, that is called death. So dhīras tatra na muhyati. One who is intelligent, one who is in the knowledge, he is not bewildered. He sees that every second, every moment, the body is changing, and the last phase of change is called death.
Therefore it is stated here, harer adbhuta-karmaṇaḥ, janma-karma-guṇānāṁ ca tad-arthe akhila-ceṣṭitam ity adi asmin eva purāṇe tatra tatra pathyate. Janma-karma-guṇānāṁ ca. Hearing about Kṛṣṇa, about Kṛṣṇa's appearance, His so-called janma... Janma means birth. So Kṛṣṇa is unborn. He is nityo nityānām. He's... Just like we have no janma, we have no appearance. It is simply change of dress. It is not death. As it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā that vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22)—if I change my dress, that is not my death. This is easily understood. Similarly, transmigration of the soul from one body to another, that is not death. But because we have no eyes to see the soul, how it is changing from one body... Just like we cannot see how the baby is coming to another body, childhood, boyhood. We cannot see. We see that the body is changing. No. He's changing from one body to another.
So... But I am the same. I can remember some of the incidences of my childhood, of my boyhood, of my youthhood. Therefore I am permanent. That is the real understanding of the living entity. These things have been explained very vividly. And in the Sixth Chapter Lord Kṛṣṇa recommended how to practice yoga. Yoga is the beginning of linking up our lost relationship with the Lord, yoga. Yoga means adding, addition or linking. Because we are now forgotten... The yoga system, any yoga system, means... Bhakti-yoga, karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga—there are different names of yogas—but actual fact is how to link up our lost relationship with the Supreme Lord. That is called yoga.
It is concluded by learned scholars that this change of body is taking place every moment, but the soul is there from the beginning of the life. And when this body is no longer persistable, the soul changes to another body. That is called transmigration of the soul. That is a fact. But the modern civilization does not deal with this subject matter. They are under wrong impression that the body is self. I have talked with many scholars, and they are also under the same impression that with the end of the body, everything is finished. But actual fact is different. We can remember our childhood body. We can remember our boyhood body. Although those bodies are not present, I, the spirit soul, the occupier of the body or the proprietor of the body, I am present.
Oh, yes. Certainly. This is experienced in this life also. Just like you had a body of a child. That body is finished, but you are existing. You can remember that you had a body of a child, you had a body of a boy, but that body of the child, body of the boy is no longer existing. You are in a different body, but you know that you are existing. That is the proof that after this body, you will have another body. This is the proof. There is no difficulty to understand. As I am still living in spite of my changing childhood body, babyhood body, boyhood body, youthhood body, so naturally it should be concluded when I give up this body... Actually, I don't give up. The body... There are two kinds of bodies. This is gross body made of the five elements: earth, water, fire air and... And there is subtle body: mind, intelligence and ego. Just like we have got shirt and coat. So when we give up this gross body, we are carried by the subtle body to another gross body.
So birth, death, old age. Nobody wants to become old, everyone wants to remain young and fresh, but old age overcomes. Similarly, disease. There are scientific advancement of knowledge, you have got very effective medicines, but there is no science to stop disease or to stop death. These are the actual problems. But the problems, these problems, are pertaining to the body. The soul is different from this body. This is our misunderstanding. I am soul; you are soul. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. But somehow or other, I have been entrapped in these bodily, material bodily changes. Changes, you can understand, that you had a body like a baby; you had a body like a child; you had a body like a boy. Now you have got youthful body. Some days after, you will get a body like me. So the body is changing, and I am the same. I can remember my childhood body, my babyhood body or my boyhood body.
So they were not agreeable to their friend's advice, Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prahlāda Mahārāja canvassing to his friends, little friends, "My dear friends, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." And they were replying, "Prahlāda, why you are insisting us to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Let us play. We shall see Hare Kṛṣṇa at the time of death." But he was insisting, "My dear friends, no." Kaumāra ācaret prājño. "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be studied, should be understood from the very beginning of boyhood, kaumāra." Kaumāra means boyhood. From... Boyhood means from the age of five years. As education begins at the age of five years, similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or bhāgavata-dharma, should be taught to the children as soon as the child is five years old. That is his instruction. "Why so early? We can understand about God later on." No. Prahlāda Mahārāja says, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. Durlabham, "very rarely." "My dear friends, you have got this human form of life after many, many births." The modern civilization, they do not know. The university education, they do not know. The scientists, they do not know. There is a false theory, Darwin's theory, about evolution of species. But that is not perfect knowledge. That is simply an idea taken from Purāṇas. In the Purāṇas, this Darwin's theory is not new to the Vedic knowledge. It is a theory only. But actual fact is different.
So you will have to come to the same point. But if you are inquisitive, that is your life. If we come to the point of inquiring about "What I am?" Oh, that is great advancement. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. I can understand very well that when... There are so many babies here. I was also a baby. My body, I had a body like a baby on the lap of my mother. I can remember that. Then I became a child, then I became a boy, then I became a young man, now I am old man. Now, the bodies, different bodies, I possessed. I remember. But those bodies are no more existing. Where is my childhood body? Where is my boyhood body? Where is my youthhood body? They're all gone. So although the bodies are gone, I remember that I had a body of a child, I had a body of a boy, I had a body of young man. Therefore I am eternal, my bodies are not eternal. Therefore the conclusion should be: when I change this body, then I'll exist. That is... Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra... (BG 2.13). Everything is there, either you study yourself or take the lesson from the Vedic version.
This is the process. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir (BG 2.13). Just like in this span of life, I was a child. Everyone was. Everyone remembers. Then I became a boy. I was playing. I can remember what I was doing in my childhood, boyhood. Then I became a young man. That also I remember. But those things have passed as dream. Now I am a different condition of life as old man. But I, the spirit soul, I remember that I was a child, I was a baby, I was a boy, I was a young man. Now I am old man. So the conclusion should be that although I have changed my bodies, I remember all these things. So the body and the remembering capacity, mean the subtle body, thinking, feeling and willing... That is called subtle body. We are now encaged in two types of body. Just like you are encaged with shirt and coat, similarly, I or you, living entity, is encaged in two types of body. The subtle body is mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is made of five elements: fire, earth, water, air, fire, and ether. These are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Asmin dehe, in this body, there is the proprietor of the body. That is soul. Asmin dehe, on this body, there is the proprietor of the body. this proprietor of the body constantly changing different types of bodies. The example is given that kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. Just like a child is changing his body to boyhood, the boy is changing his body to youthhood, and young man is changing, his body to old body. Similarly when the old man dies, he does not die. He accepts another body. This knowledge. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. One who's actually in knowledge, he's not surprised that a man is dead. He's not dead. And the example is given just you change your dress. Now some of you are present here with a coat, black color. You can change it tomorrow into white color. That does not make any difference, that you are dead. Similarly, when we change our body. Just like I was a baby. Everyone knows. I, I remember that I had a little body. I remember at least. But that body is missing now. I remember that I was young man. I had a very youthful body. But that is missing now. And my elderly person, he may also, he may also know that he has changed his body, but he's not dead. I know that I have changed my body. I have simply changed my body, but I am living. I remember the body. Similarly, when we change our body, it does not mean that I am dead. Tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati.
Just like I, living entity, I am all existing in this body. I'm changing bodies so many times. I was a baby; I changed that body. I became a boy or a child. Then I became a boy; I changed my body. Then I became a young man; I changed my body. Then I became an old man; I changed my body. All those bodies, different types of body—babyhood, childhood, boyhood, youthhood—they are now gone, and now I'm existing in this old body. So it will also go. But that does not mean that I'll be finished. No. I'll accept another body. As I am changing different types of bodies, I am existing. Similarly, when I shall change this body, I shall exist in another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dhīra means those who are sober. He's not bewildered. Adhīra. There are two kinds of men—dhīra and adhīra. Adhīra means senseless, crazy, and dhīra means with sense. He's not bewildered. He's called dhīra. So when somebody dies, one who is dhīra, he understands, "My father, my brother, or my relative, or somebody else, he has simply changed this body." Tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptir. "So what is the cause of lamenting?" These things are discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā.
So then I got another body, another body, another body, and according to development of body I had different consciousness, just like child's consciousness is different from the father's consciousness. So we are actually getting different types of body every moment, and the consciousness is changed also according to the body. This is a fact. But I remember that I had such and such body, I was doing such foolish things when I was a child. All these things I remember. Therefore I, the person, the soul, is existing, although the bodies are not existing. This is a fact. Those bodies, my childhood body, my boyhood body, my youthhood body, they are no longer existing. It is a fact. I have got now a different body, but I remember that I possessed such and such bodies. Therefore the conclusion is that, in spite of change of body, the spirit soul remains the same eternally. Similarly, when I shall change this body, I shall get another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir. That is called transmigration of the soul.
You have to accept this, dehāntara-prāpti, from one body to another. Where is my childhood body? That is gone. Where is my boyhood body? That is gone. Where is my youthhood body? That is gone. Not only for me, for everyone. There is past, present and future. Similarly, when this body will be gone, I will get another body. Where is the difficulty to understand? Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dhīra. Because we are not sober... There are two classes of men: dhīra and adhīra. Dhīra means sober, thinking, thoughtful, and adhīra means restless. So with restless brain, it is difficult, but if you have got sober brain, then there is no difficulty to understand that "I am eternal. I was in the child's body, I was in the baby's body, I was in the boy's body, I was in a young man's body. Now I have got a different body. I am living asmin dehe." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). It is very easy to understand, but Kṛṣṇa says, dhīras tatra na muhyati: "Those who are sober, they can understand."
He is lying on the bed. Now, even still, we do not come to the understanding what is the difference between the living body and the dead body. There are so many theories, but as I have already told you that we receive knowledge from the perfect person, Kṛṣṇa. He says that within this body the owner of the body is there, and on account of the owner of the body presence, the body is changing. The owner of the body is sometimes in the childhood body; the owner of the body sometimes in a different boyhood body; the owner of the body is sometimes in the youthhood body. Similarly, as he is changing different types of body during this duration of life, similarly, after this annihilation of this body, when it is old... Just like old garment or old coat, old shirt cannot be used—it is thrown away; another new shirt, new coat is taken—similarly, this body, being annihilated, the soul accepts another body. This is a real knowledge.
So it is very common sense affair to understand where there is soul. A big stone, a big mountain, it cannot move although it is so big. And a small ant is moving. Why? There is soul. So how can you say the animals have no soul? This is ignorance. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The soul being within the body means it is changing the body from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, like that. And if the child is born dead—no more change of body. That is the proof that there is soul. Soul means the living force which is moving the body. That is soul. How you can say the animal has no soul? Everyone has soul. Even the grass has soul, because it is growing, changing body. (break) ...simple thing. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Because all dirty things are within our heart. On account of dirty things we are thinking that "I have got soul, and the animal has no soul." This is due to dirtiness of the heart. So if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, the heart will be cleansed. Just like a mirror with a dust, you cannot see, but if this dust is cleansed, then you can see your face very nicely. Similarly, because on account of material contamination our heart is unclean, we cannot see things as they are, but the chanting process will cleanse your heart, and then you will see everything in order. Then you will not say the animal has no soul.
The first-class position is to become a qualified brāhmaṇa. Śamo damo satyaṁ śaucaṁ titikṣa ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). So that is the best quality. And next the kṣatriya quality, next the vaiśya quality... Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). So according to the infection of different qualities, we are preparing the next body, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). This is karma. You work as a brāhmaṇa, you work as a kṣatriya, svakarma, according to your capacity, quality. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā, guṇa. These guṇa... As we are associating with the qualities and acting, then we are creating a body next life. So next life, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ... (BG 2.13). As we pass from one form of body even in this life, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, youth-hood to old age... Kṛṣṇa begins His instruction with this point, that we must know what we are. We are not this body. If we remain in the bodily concept of life, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13).
So long we are not paṇḍitāḥ, our business is to lament and to hanker. We lament what is lost, and we hanker what is not in our possession. This is material disease. So when we understand that ahaṁ brahmāsmi... That hint is given by Kṛṣṇa, that asmin dehe dehinaḥ: "The proprietor of the body is there, asmin dehe. On account of presence of the proprietor of the body, the body is changing." Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). The kaumāra, the childhood, the boyhood, the youthhood—these changes of body is taking place on account of presence of the dehina. So where is this education all over the world? There is no such education. But there is knowledge. This is Bhagavad-gītā. We don't take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā; therefore there is no such education, athāto brahma jijñāsā, or to understand Brahman.
Philosophy Discussions
Prabhupāda: Then what is his understanding of the soul?
Hayagrīva: He says there are no entirely separate souls without bodies.
Prabhupāda: That is rascal. That means he is imperfect. How he can say so when we practically see that the soul is changing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood? How he can say like that? He is transmigrating. That is, every day we have experience. How he can deny that? Otherwise, if he, if the soul does not transmigrate, then how the child becomes a young man? The body is different. The, this is simple understanding, that he has changed the body. The body changes and the soul remains eternal.
Hayagrīva: He further writes on this... He says, "There is strictly speaking neither absolute birth nor complete death consisting in the separation of the soul from the body. What we call birth is development or growth, as what we call death is envelopment and diminution."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is transmigration. That is transmigration. He hasn't..., he is not dead, but he has developed into another body. That is transmigration. Then why does he deny that?
Hayagrīva: So he says, in other words, as soon as the human soul leaves the body, it must immediately...
Prabhupāda: Enters another body.
Śyāmasundara: No. The forms. The life force itself is eternal but the forms will change up to the stage of immortality.
Prabhupāda: Material forms have changed. The living force has not. The same example: the living force is there, the forms babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, the form is changed, but the person whose bodies have been changed, he is permanent, he is spiritual, he is not changed. But when he identifies with the body, he thinks that "I am changed." The example is, just like in the rainy season, at night there is cloud, and the cloud is moving, but if you see, you see the moon is moving, moon is moving. But actually the moon is not moving, the cloud is moving. You have any experience?
Śyāmasundara: In order for that statement or that proposition to be true, there must be evidence.
Prabhupāda: This is evidence: that there is no soul. The self, the individual soul, is now departed; therefore this body is lump of matter. This is evidence. And because the soul is there, therefore the body changes or develops. Just like if a child is born dead, then the body does not develop or changes. It remains in the same condition. But so long the soul is there, the child grows or changes his body. That is evidence. Because the soul is there, therefore the child is growing or changing body from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth. Suppose a child is born, doctor says it is dead child. You say something is wanted, but what is that something? You do not know. Otherwise, if you know, you add it. What is that something? Suggest, what is that something? Simply vague idea something, that is nonsense idea. That is not science. You must give, "This is wanting." Suppose that you say that the blood, the redness, just like nowadays blood supply is the theory, so what is this blood? Blood is a liquid, red liquid, like chemical or something, with some salt. So you can add salt, just like in cholera cases, they add saline injection. So dead body, you give saline injection, make it red by some color, give him life. If you say that "Red blood is now white," so make it red. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. There are so many chemicals. If you say the redness is the life, then there are many natural products, just like jewels, by nature it is red. Why is it not alive? Why it is not alive? By natural redness of something, if you say that is the cause of life, then there are many jewels. What is called, jewels?
Devotee: And therefore the person reacts on a physical level and they can't (indistinct) psychoanalyzing him and having him recall that event, then he is free...
Prabhupāda: Therefore our prescription is that in the beginning of life, teach him brahmācārya restraint, and when he is grown up, he is above twenty, get him married. In the beginning he will learn how to restrain. If you teach your child to become saintly, he retains his semina, his brain becomes strong, he can understand things, because wasting your semina means less intelligence. So from the beginning, if he is brahmacārī, if he stops misuse of semina, then he becomes intelligent and strong and fully grown. For want of education, everything is being stunted-brain, bodily growth, and everything. So after he is trained as a brahmacārī, if he thinks that still he will have sex enjoyment, all right, he can be married. But because he will have strength of body and brain, he will beget a child, immediately there will be male child. This is practical remedy. And because he has been trained from boyhood to renounce this material way of enjoyment, when he is fifty years old, naturally his first-born child must be twenty-five years old, so he can retire from sex life. (indistinct), because household life means a license for sex life. That is all. It is not required. But one who cannot restrain, he is given a license, "All right, you have sex life by marriage," as I explained in the beginning. So that is real program. That will save the society. Not by (indistinct) or some (indistinct) and this and that. They cannot find out the root disease. But if you give him all indulgence, then he will study the (indistinct). You should take information from the standard knowledge. That's what we have discussed (indistinct) sex impulse is already there. So from the very beginning you have to restrain. Otherwise you will be implicated.
Prabhupāda: That means he believes in eternity. This loss of senses, that is we also accept that there are three stages: jāgrati, awakening, and sleeping and deep sleeping. So deep sleeping means unconsciousness. So when a man dies from awakening state, he enters into the dreaming state and then enters into the deep sleeping state. So transmigration of the soul means he gives up this gross body, and the subtle body, mind, intelligence carries him to the another body, and in another body, unless the body is prepared properly, he lives in deep sleep. And when the body is prepared at seven months for human being, then he comes to consciousness. He feels, "Oh, why I am put into this packed-up status." If he is pious he feels very uncomfortable. He prays to God—these things are described—that "Kindly excuse me from this awkward position. Now this time I shall become a devotee." This is position. The soul is immortal, but still he enters into different stages of life. Then when he comes out, the same different stages of body continues. In childhood he is something different from his boyhood; boyhood something different from youthhood; and he is the same, but he is passing through different... That is called evolution. So when he comes to the perfect stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then his life is successful. Just like a flower, in the bud stage, in the fructified stage, in the blooming stage, and when it is fully bloomed it looks very nice, beautiful. Similarly, when by gradual development when you come to the stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then our whole beauty is revealed.
| Page Title: | Boyhood (Lectures) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 09 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=117, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 117 |