Guest (Indian man): If I am not mistaken, I think I heard that Kṛṣṇa reestablished religion, reestablished. Now who established before Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.
Guest: When Kṛṣṇa was born, who was born before Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never born.
Guest: Kṛṣṇa was not born?
Prabhupāda: No.
Guest: Oh, that satisfies me very much. I was taught that...(indistinct)
Prabhupāda: It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, ajo 'pi. Ajo 'pi: "I am never..." You are also not born, every one of us. Because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, spirit soul, so nobody is born. Na jāyate na mriyate vā: "Nobody takes birth; nobody dies." Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit: "At any time." These things are there. And Kṛṣṇa, about Himself, He says, ajo 'pi: "Although I am unborn." Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san: "Although I am unborn." So Kṛṣṇa is never born. Just like in the morning there is sunrise. If you say the sun is born, that is mistake. Sun is seen. He is not born.
Guest: Yes, I understand. This Caitanya was incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: Before Caitanya was who, Kṛṣṇa or anyone in between?
Prabhupāda: Before Caitanya? In the Kali-yuga... Kṛṣṇa was in the Dvāpara-yuga, and Caitanya was in the Kali-yuga.
Guest: So between Caitanya and Kṛṣṇa there was not anybody. And before Kṛṣṇa there was no one.
Prabhupāda: No, there were others also, before Kṛṣṇa.
Guest: Before Kṛṣṇa, who was?
Prabhupāda: Before Kṛṣṇa there was Lord Rāmacandra. Yes.
Guest: So Kṛṣṇa took the incarnation of Lord Rāmacandra.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He appears sometimes as Lord Rāmacandra, or as Lord Caitanya, or sometimes others, like that.
Guest: But with the name of Kṛṣṇa, He appeared after Rāmacandra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Guest: And I heard you also saying that Caitanya was disciple of Madhvan-dāsa-pura.(?)
Prabhupāda: Yes, Madhva. Madhvācārya sampradāya, yes.
Guest: He was disciple of. Now, was he born after Kṛṣṇa or...
Prabhupāda: No, he was born before... Who? Madhvācārya, you mean to say? He was born long, long before Lord Caitanya, after Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa appeared on this planet five thousand years ago. Madhvācārya appeared about one thousand years.
Guest: One thousand years before. That means he appeared after Vyāsa, Śrī Vyāsa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vyāsa was contemporary to Kṛṣṇa. Vyāsa.
Guest: And Caitanya was disciple of Madhvan-dāsa-pura.
Prabhupāda: Madhva... Not Madhvācārya directly. By his disciplic succession.
Guest: Yes. But Madhva was not a incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. A ācārya does not require to become incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. Not always all the ācāryas are incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. No. They are devotees. They are devotees.
Guest: Yes. That means Caitanya was incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: But was a disciple of someone who was not incarnation.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is possible. (Hindi) You were inquiring about Īśvara Purī, who was direct spiritual master of Lord Caitanya?
Guest: No. I thought because Lord Caitanya was incarnation of Kṛṣṇa... (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: So he would not have a guru or...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes, yes. There is no difference between devotee and God. You see? Sometimes a devotee is given a greater place than God Himself. Mad-bhaktaḥ pūjābhyādhikaḥ. Just like Kṛṣṇa is God or Arjuna is devotee. So Arjuna is given superior place, to sit on the chariot, and Kṛṣṇa is driver of the chariot. That does not mean Kṛṣṇa has degraded from His position. Kṛṣṇa, or God, in any position, He is God.
Guest: But Kṛṣṇa was not disciple of anyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: Whose disciple was Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: He was also disciple of Sandipani Muni. Everyone has to become disciple. That is the Vedic system. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet. Without becoming disciple, nobody can understand.
Guest: No, but Kṛṣṇa was Supreme God.
Prabhupāda: That not... Supreme God... But He was playing just like human being. Supreme God we know by His activities. But He played the part of human being. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam: (BG 9.11) "Because I am playing just like ordinary human being, those who are foolish persons, mūḍha, less intelligent, they accept Me as ordinary man." Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ: "They do not know the greatness behind Me. They do not know." Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Mama bhūta-maheśvaram: "That I am the Supreme Lord." Because they do not know, therefore, simply by superficial observation, that "He is playing just like ordinary man," that "He is the chariot driver of Arjuna..." Now, somebody may say, "How Kṛṣṇa can be the Supreme Personality of Godhead? He was ordinary chariot driver of Arjuna. He was ordinary cowherds boy." Muhyanti yat sūrayayaḥ. Very great sages, great saintly persons, also sometimes become bewildered. But to understand Kṛṣṇa, that is explained also in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). Not by learning, not by education, not by scholarship. Bhaktyā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ: "In reality what I am, that can be understood by the devotees, not by others." And in the beginning also, of the Bhagavad-gītā teaching, He said Arjuna that "I am teaching Bhagavad-gītā to you because you are devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si: (BG 4.3) "You are My very dear friend and devotee. Therefore," rahasyam hy etad uttamam, "I am delivering this mystery of Bhagavad-gītā-yoga to you." So to understand Bhagavad-gītā requires that qualification: bhakto 'si. And similarly, on the Eighteenth Chapter, the Kṛṣṇa directly says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). The brahma-bhūtaḥ stage is liberated stage from material contamination. But you have to develop further. In the liberated stage, if you shall be satisfied simply being brahma-bhūtaḥ, self-realized, understanding yourself as Brahman, that is not sufficient. You have to make further progress. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). When one has acquired these qualities, that he is no more, I mean to say, faltering in the matter of hankering and lamentation, and he is now on the transcendental stage of seeing every living entity on the equal level—samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu—at that stage one can enter into the devotional service. Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). So bhakti is above the liberated stage of life. And bhakti, when, if one is fortunate enough to come to that stage, above the liberated stage, then bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55), then through that para bhakti, pure devotional service, one can understand Kṛṣṇa in reality, tattvataḥ. And in another place He said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: (BG 7.3) "Out of many millions of persons, somebody is interested for self-realization." Kaścid yatati siddhaye. Siddhi. Siddhi. Siddhi-labha means perfection of human form of life. So nobody is interested. But there are some who are interested how to make this human form of life perfect. So, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhāṇām: (BG 7.3) "Out of many persons who are actually engaged in the matter of that perfection of life," kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ, "somebody may know in reality what I am," because that reality can be understood by the devotee. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). He has not mentioned anything like jñānī or yogi or karmī. No. He has simply mentioned one thing, bhaktyā. And that is the process. (aside:) He is going. Give him prasāda. (Hindi) Give him prasāda, distribute. Yes.