Justin Murphy: But I will become an old man anyway in the course of my life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore there is future life. If you say, "I don't believe in it,"...
Justin Murphy: Are you talking about reincarnation, life after death?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Reincarnation, you are already reincarnated. Where is your that childhood body? Where is that body?
Justin Murphy: Here it is. It's grown.
Prabhupāda: No. No, it is changed.
Justin Murphy: It's grown, it's changed, it's evolved, I have evolved. Just like evolution, I have evolved to the situations...
Prabhupāda: Anyway... Just try to understand. Anyway, that, your boy's body or childhood body is no longer. Either you say changed or grown, whatever you say, it doesn't matter.
Justin Murphy: But they're the same bones, it's the same skin.
Prabhupāda: But you are the same man. That's a fact. You understand that you were a child or you were a boy, youthful boy, jumping. You remember that body, but that body is not existing. That's a fact.
Justin Murphy: I can't agree.
Prabhupāda: And why not? Suppose somebody had seen your childhood body, and for many years he has not seen you, and he all of a sudden comes. Suppose your father's friend. So father introduces. He says, "Oh, you are the same?" He will be surprised because he saw you in a childhood body.
Justin Murphy: But I'm less interested in what...
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think that you have changed your body. The other man says, "Oh, you have grown up?" Or... Generally they take it as grown up. But the actual position is the body has changed.
Justin Murphy: But they're the same bones. It's the same skin. My face looks just about the same.
Prabhupāda: Not it is same. Medically, it is not the same.
Justin Murphy: The functions are different, but it's the same heart that's beating, the same veins...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, it is not the same body. Just like in your childhood, when you were a boy, you had no sex impulse. Now you have got sex impulse. The body of a child, the body of a boy, they cannot understand sex life because the body is different. And now, because you have got different body, you can feel what is sex life. So it is imperceptibly changing. Therefore we think that it is growing. But it is changing. It is changing swiftly. Just like in the cinema spool. The picture is changing, but because it is changing so swiftly, you are seeing that one man is moving. That is the fact. There are hundreds and thousands of pictures passed on. When you see that "This man is taking the stick and bringing this way," this means there are many pictures. So similarly, it is like a spool. Your body is changing every moment. That is medical science.
Justin Murphy: Absolutely. Yes. At every moment.
Prabhupāda: So changing. So you are changing your body. That's a fact. But because you are seeing all in one spool, you are thinking, "It is growing; it is moving." That's all. But it is changing. This is the science. So body is changing. And you remember that you had such-and-such body. Therefore you are different from the body. This is the science. So unless we understand that "I am not this body. I am different from the body. I am changing bodies. Therefore I will have to change this body and accept another body..." This is the science, beginning of scientific knowledge. Without understanding this fact his advancement of knowledge is simply for eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. There is no advancement. According to Vedic literature, he remains animal. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13).
- yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
- sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ
- yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
- janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
- (SB 10.84.13)
If we cannot understand ourself... It is very simple, that "I have changed my body so many times, so naturally, when this body will be useless in this life, then I will have to accept another body." This is the version of... (Aside:) You find out.
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
Read it.
Paramahaṁsa: English?
Prabhupāda: English and..., yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Sanskrit first?
Prabhupāda: Uh huh.
Paramahaṁsa:
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
Translation: "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."
Prabhupāda: The simple truth. But people have no education. That is the defect of the modern civilization. This is the fact, that you are accepting every moment a different body. So after death, you will have to accept another body. Now, we should know, "What kind of body I am going to accept next?" That is intelligence. That is civilization.
Justin Murphy: Do you mean that the, that that, then, will allow me, if I come to that realization, that that will allow me to then continue to improve my mind, continue to study, to think, to gain knowledge...
Prabhupāda: As far... Yes.
Justin Murphy: ...beyond say the normal sixty-five or seventy years that I might live in what I imagine to be this body?
Prabhupāda: The knowledge should be acquired from the beginning of life, from childhood. But if by circumstances I could not get this knowledge from childhood, then we should begin immediately. Because unless we get this knowledge, our life remains imperfect. We remain animal. The animal does not know this. And after evolutionary process, coming to the human form of body, if we keep ourself in the darkness of animal life, then our this opportunity is lost. This is the first problem. Unfortunately, the modern education is... Leaders, they have no education, and they are thinking just like animal that "I am this body." Therefore you are thinking you are Australian, I am thinking I am Indian, he is thinking American, he..., only on this bodily concept of life. But we are not this body. We are different from this body. So unless we understand this point, our aim of life, our standard of civilization, is incorrect.
Justin Murphy: I suppose it's very easy to understand and to credit that so many people will be thinking maybe this way because that's part of the basis of being selfish, and, after all, a lot of people, particularly, I would imagine, a lot of Australians, are basically selfish. They are interested far more in what they can get and do for themselves not necessarily by working hard, by striving or by reading or by thinking or by studying. They, they... The old saying...
Prabhupāda: The human life is meant for acquiring knowledge, real knowledge.
Justin Murphy: But so many people don't see it that way.
Prabhupāda: At least one class of men must be thoroughly conversant, thoroughly aware of the things as they are. They are called brāhmaṇas. Therefore the society should be divided into four classes. The first-class men, who have got full knowledge of life and the problems of life... That there should be, the first-class men. They may be very few; it doesn't matter. Ideal class. People will learn by their behavior, by their character, by their knowledge. So must be there. Then the next class would be the administrators. They would be advised by the first-class men, and they would administer the state. And the third-class men, they should produce food, enough food for the whole population. And the fourth-class men would assist these three higher class, first class, second class and third class. This is the arrangement, nature's arrangement. There are first-class men; there are second-class men; there are third-class men; there are fourth-class men. But if you produce simply fourth-class men, there cannot be any adjustment.
It will be chaotic society. That is the present position, that there is no first-class men, there is no second-class men. There may be some third-class men, and all fourth-class men. This is the position. Therefore the whole human society is in chaotic condition. The first-class man should understand this. Therefore it is called dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). What is the meaning of dhīra? Just see.