Professor: Do you think that your mission is successful?
Prabhupāda: That is to be judged by you.
Professor: Oh! That's interesting.
Yogeśvara: This is the verse here?
Professor: Yeah, Yes this is the verse. People told me that you have some two or three thousand disciples in the Western world?
Yogeśvara: Two or three thousand disciples.
Prabhupāda: More than that.
Professor: More than that?
Professor: And what about France? Is it...
Prabhupāda: That I do not know. They know.
Professor: They know, yes, better than you.
Prabhupāda: They bring the disciples. I simply initiate. That's all.
Professor: Have you been many times in France or not?
Prabhupāda: This is the third time.
Professor: The third time?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly I was going there... What is that place name?
Guru-gaurāṅga: Fontenay aux Rose.
Professor: Fontenay aux Rose. I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In a sewer. So I had got very poor idea of Paris.
Professor: Really? Why?
Prabhupāda: Because in the sewer, I could not see such nice things.
Professor: Here, it's a wonderful location.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Here it is wonderful. Now I can make an idea, what is Paris. Yes.
Prabhupāda: I was under impression in Paris there is no nice park. Now this time I see, yes, Paris excels the whole world, having such a nice park. Yes. I saw Golden Gate Park in San Francisco. That is also very nice. But this park is nicer than Golden Gate Park.
Professor: You think so. The Bois de Bologne? is much better than the Golden Gate?
Professor: Well it depends. I like the Golden Gate too because there is the sea not far. Here, in Paris, you have no ocean, nothing.
Professor: Only a small river. That is not the...
Prabhupāda: And on the whole, Paris city is very nice. Very nice. Opulent city.
Professor: And they told me also that this morning you had some brahminical initiation to the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.
Professor: How many people?
Prabhupāda: About fifteen.
Professor: That's good. That's good.
Prabhupāda: No, they...
Haṁsadūta: Seven brāhmaṇas and ten first initiates.
Prabhupāda: On the whole, fifteen.
Haṁsadūta: Fifteen, seventeen.
Professor: How many levels of initiation do you have?
Professor: Two. The first...
Prabhupāda: First initiation, experimental...
Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation. Gāyatrī. Gāyatrī-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jīva Gosvāmī, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gāyatrī, is given. So we are creating brāhmaṇas in the western countries. Yes.
Professor: Yes. I know. Don't you think it's against the dharma-śāstra?
Professor: No. Tell me why?
Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There is nothing, such thing as janma.
Professor: Oh. Very nice.
Prabhupāda: And another place, Bhāgavatam, there is statement of Nārada, advising Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira that yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam. There are symptoms, brāhmaṇa system, śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 18.42). It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam, abhivyañjakaṁ varṇa. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). This is the injunction of Nārada, "The symptoms, brahminical symptoms, if it is found in the person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. And if the śūdra symptoms are visible in a person born in a brāhmaṇa family, he should be accepted as śūdra." And in the Jābāla Upaniṣad, the Satyakāma Jābāla... So Satyakāma was born of a maidservant, but he wanted to become brāhmaṇa. So he went to Gautama Muni: "Sir, make your disciple." In those days, Vaidic brahminical culture, without becoming brāhmaṇa, he cannot be initiated. Initiation means to make one brāhmaṇa. So, according to our Gosvāmī process, Sanātana Gosvāmī, he has given us the book, Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. In that book he has written,
- yathā kāñcanatāṁ yāti
- kāṁsyaṁ rasa-vidhānataḥ
- tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena
- dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām
Nṛṇām: "Of all human beings, by initiation, he becomes a dvija." So we follow that principle. And besides that, Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered that bhārata-bhūmite... You understand little Bengali?
Professor: No, Bengali, no, I don't. But it doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). It is almost Sanskrit. "Anyone who has taken birth as human being in the land of Bhāratavarṣa," janma sārthaka kari, "making his life successful," kara para-upakāra. Para-upakāra. Para-upakāra means everyone is in slumber and considering himself that he is body, like cats and dogs. Therefore, they should be raised to the spiritual consciousness that "You are not cats and dogs. You are Brahman." Just realize "ahaṁ brahmāsmi." This is para-upakāra. So we are doing that. We are awakening everyone. Uttiṣṭhataḥ jāgrataḥ prāpta-varaṁ nibodhata: "You have got now human being form of life. Now get up and make your life successful by spiritual realization." This is our message. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. By spiritual realization everyone will become happy. Without spiritual realization, nobody can become happy. This is our mission.
Professor: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: So Indian caste brāhmaṇas, they are against me, against me. They come to fight with me that I am spoiling Hindu religion.
Professor: (laughs) Well, you are a brāhmaṇa yourself.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am now sannyāsī.