Professor: How many levels of initiation do you have?
Prabhupāda: Two.
Professor: Two. The first...
Prabhupāda: First initiation, experimental...
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation. Gāyatrī. Gāyatrī-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jīva Gosvāmī, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gāyatrī, is given. So we are creating brāhmaṇas in the western countries. Yes.
Professor: Yes. I know. Don't you think it's against the dharma-śāstra?
Prabhupāda: No.
Professor: No. Tell me why?
Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There is nothing, such thing as janma.