Prabhupāda: Births? There is no counting. Because unless you come to spiritual knowledge, the birth and death will continue. Yes?
Hṛdayānanda: (translating) Do we have to liberate ourselves from karma in order to achieve Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The karma is the binding. So long our mind is karma conscious, then we have to take another body. Therefore bhakti is defined, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). Karma. People are very much enthusiastic to be engaged in karma, fruitive activities, and some of them are very eager to speculative knowledge. That is called jñāna. Therefore bhakti is jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). It must be uncovered by the speculative knowledge and fruitive activities. By karma, you are bound up to accept birth and death; by jñāna, you can be liberated for the time being, but you again fall down; but by bhakti, you are firmly fixed up in your spiritual platform.