Prabhupāda: Yes. The position of conditioned soul is that he must commit mistake, and he's illusioned, and his senses are imperfect, and he wants to cheat. Everyone speaks something. You know that he has no perfect knowledge in the subject matter, still he wants to speak something. That means he wants to cheat. This is going on. And then after some years somebody says: "No, it was not correct." That means he cheated. The former scientists or philosophers cheated.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Why ask?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no perfect knowledge and he proposed something and now it is incorrect. And the man who is correcting, he's also a cheater. This is going on, this is their paramparā system. One cheater, another cheater, another cheater. So why shall I believe the cheaters?
Devotee (1): They've convinced us by their machines.
Prabhupāda: That machine means, their machine. Again you are bringing the same argument. What is value of machine? The machine is made by a cheater. Imperfect senses, how it is perfect?
Devotee (1): But some machines work, though, like the radio, the TV . . .
Prabhupāda: Work to some extent, that much credit you can take.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, to some extent that is also you're saying . . .
Prabhupāda: To some extent is, everyone accepts.
Hari-śauri: Just amplifies the cheating.
Prabhupāda: Yes. To some extent they are correct, that's all. So far they say: "I can see 2 feet or 10 feet." That's all. So how can I say I can see the whole sky? That is cheating.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually that is also the fundamental mistake.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In our attempt to gain knowledge, that we try to expand our own limited experience to something which is beyond my . . .
Prabhupāda: Beyond my . . .
Yadubara: Doctor Frog.
Prabhupāda: Doctor Frog, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So sometimes . . .
Prabhupāda: Imagining. "It may be like this. It may be like that." That is not knowledge. Doctor Frog is thinking of Atlantic ocean. He is within three feet of water. And how he can think of Atlantic Ocean? He may think, "It may be four feet, or five feet, or ten feet," and as soon as says 20 feet, he bursts. He's finished. Now you are finished.
Devotee (2): But they are so many . . . (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that's a good point.
Devotee (2): But they cheated when they said they went to the moon.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they're cheaters, those who have got imperfect senses, they're all cheaters. If they say something, "Definitely this is like this," that is cheating.
Devotee (2): But how can so many cheat?
Prabhupāda: So many cheat?
Devotee (2): Together. Together they all cheat, they all say they went to the moon. One thousand scientists, all together in one room? They all say: "We agree, this, they went to the moon, here's the . . ."
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that if we can prove that the moon is beyond sun, then all these cheaters will be . . . (indistinct) . . . by one stroke.