Wittgenstein

Expressions researched:
"Wittgenstein"

Philosophy Discussions

Philosophy Discussion on Ludwig Wittgenstein:

Śyāmasundara: This morning we are discussing a philosopher called Ludwig Wittgenstein, a contemporary German philosopher. One of his major so-called contributions is what is called a verification principle, which reads, "To understand a proposition means to know what is the case if it is true." That means anyone who wishes to understand a proposition must first know the conditions under which that proposition is true, that is, what information is required by way of evidence of its truth.

Prabhupāda: So the modern world's proposition is that "I am this body." So that is untruth. What does he say about this?

Śyāmasundara: Well, if I claim that I am this body, that means I have to know all of the conditions which make it true that I am this body. Then if all these conditions are true...

Prabhupāda: First of all we must discuss what I am. Then we have to see whether I am this body or not. And what do you mean by "I am"? You are individual, I am individual. How I exact my individuality, and how you exact your individuality? What is the symptom? What is the meaning of "I am"? First of all you have to understand, what do you mean by "I am"? "I am" means my activities, "I am." That is "I am."

Śyāmasundara: My activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So try to understand, "I am" means my activities. So how my activities are going on? Presently we can see my activities are going on by the movements of my senses, of the limbs of the body. Therefore we come to the point that the moving force is "I am."

Śyāmasundara: That which moves the limbs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That moving force, if "I am," then I am not this body, because as soon as the moving force from the body is gone, the body is of no value.

Śyāmasundara: They would say that then "I" cease to exist. Then "I am" no more. When the body dies, then I am no more.

Prabhupāda: Then how do you come to "I am"? "No more" means you came to the existence of "I am." How did you come to exist as "I am"? If you say that after the stoppage of movements of the body, when there is no more "I am," then how this "I am" came into existence? That is the question. Wherefrom this movement came?

Śyāmasundara: They say that the condition or the evidence required to know if this is true, that I came from...

Prabhupāda: The first thing is that if I identify myself with the body, the body means movements of the limbs. Now if something is wanting, and the limbs do not move any more... But that moving force is "I am."

Śyāmasundara: They would say that it is a combination of chemicals or some...

Devānanda: They postulated... The French philosophers at one point postulated that within the matter itself there is a potential of consciousness. They called it elan vital, living potential within matter, and when you put the matter together in certain positions, then that living potential is able to come out, and when the material nature changes again, it is no longer manifested.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense, because when the body becomes from the lump of matter, why that living potentiality, consciousness, does not come again?

Philosophy Discussion on Ludwig Wittgenstein:

Śyāmasundara: We want to stick to Wittgenstein.

Prabhupāda: The main principle is when the body is called dead, why don't you put some chemicals and make it alive again? You say something is wanted. What is that something? That you do not know. But we can say what is that something. We say that something is the soul. That is wanting.

Śyāmasundara: So far that proposition, you said "I am" means that the soul exists. That is your proposition.

Prabhupāda: My proposition is that "I am" means I am the soul, spirit soul, not this body.

Philosophy Discussion on Ludwig Wittgenstein:

Prabhupāda: But why does he believe of his eyes so much? Why does he not accept that his eyes are so imperfect that he cannot see the soul?

Śyāmasundara: Either directly or indirectly he says that we have to be able to prove...

Prabhupāda: No. The same example, just like a man has committed murder and he is arrested and taken away. So others, they know that this man will be hanged. And one was, "Oh, I have not seen, so how he is hanged?" But that is foolishness. The state law says that if a man has committed murder he will be hanged. So you have to see through the law, not with your eyes. The nonsense eyes, what can they see? So see through knowledge, through books.

Śyāmasundara: So our ultimate verification does not rest with our senses but with the authoritative...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Authoritative knowledge, that is real seeing. That is real seeing. Just like we have not seen Kṛṣṇa, take for example. Then all we are fools and rascals, that we are after Kṛṣṇa? People may say that "You have not seen Kṛṣṇa. Why you are after so much, Kṛṣṇa?" They can say. But then you are all set of fools. Does it mean that we are all set of fools? Then how we have seen Kṛṣṇa?

Śyāmasundara: Wittgenstein, in that respect he answers that these metaphysical or mystical ideas, even though they are not expressed in words, can be felt or appreciated without knowing whether it is true.

Prabhupāda: No. That is knowing. To know through authorities, that is knowing. That is real knowing. That is the process of Vedic knowledge: to know through the authorities. The same example: if somebody is asking, "Who is my father?" then he has to know through the authority of mother; otherwise there is no other way. So therefore to know through authority is perfect knowledge.

Philosophy Discussion on Ludwig Wittgenstein:

Prabhupāda: What is past, present, future for a man is not the past, present, future for Brahmā. Therefore this past, present, future is relative. And Kṛṣṇa is eternal. He has no past, present and future.

Devotee: I can understand how the past and future can be...

Prabhupāda: Past, present and future is relative to your body. Because you have got a limited body, therefore you have got past, present, future. Otherwise there is no past, present, future.

Devotee: But there is present for everyone.

Devotee (2): But that is also due to that body.

Devotee: But the past and the future are simply reminiscences and projections of (indistinct), but the present is existing for everyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That past means, just like what you say. The past, present, future for an ant is different from your past, present, future.

Devotee: Why?

Prabhupāda: Because your body is different.

Devotee: The experience of the past, present and the future is different.

Prabhupāda: My point is there is no past, present, future. This experience is gathered according to your body.

Devotee: The experiences are different, but it doesn't alter the (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) actually there is no past, present, future. That is my position.

Devotee: In the same way, the Buddhists say there is no soul. They say that the soul is completely dependent upon the body.

Prabhupāda: That we can reply. Why there is no soul? What is the distinction between that, that we already discussed. Don't bother about that.

Devotee: We would say there is no past, or is our perception of the past is false?

Prabhupāda: Time is eternal. There is no past, present, future. We perceive past, present, future due to this body. Just like Kṛṣṇa has no past, present, future.

Śyāmasundara: Wittgenstein noted that his own propositions are nonsensical; that is, they are devoid of any sense content. Therefore he held that...

Prabhupāda: Why he is bothering all nonsensical (indistinct)?

Śyāmasundara: He held that at first we must transcend that, in order to view the world correctly.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are. (laughter)

Devotee: We are transcending.

Prabhupāda: Let him study philosophy from us.