Guest 2: Would you say that the lawyer can do good whether or not he believes in God?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I am saying that if you are not a lawyer, if you have no study of the law, how can you do good?
Guest 2: Well, that's what I was putting. I was hoping to lead you from there to the other situation of no studying or specific training.
Madhudviṣa: No. Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that you could help us legally because you knew the law. If you weren't a lawyer, then you couldn't have helped us legally. Right?
Guest 2: I see, I see what you mean, yes.
Madhudviṣa: So therefore, now taking that same example, you can't do good for someone unless you know what good is. You can't...
Guest 2: I was misunderstanding what he was saying.
Madhudviṣa: You can't help us legally unless you know the law yourself. You can't... I mean, just any Joe can't walk into the court and start speaking. The judge will say, "Go away." But because you're a lawyer you can help us.
Guest 1: But the question Raymond asked before was if somebody helped an old lady across the street and he was, say, an atheist, would it be doing a good action?
Madhudviṣa: Well, it depends. It depends on what the lady was doing.
Guest 1: It depends if he pushed her in front of a car.
Madhudviṣa: That lady may have been...
Guest 1: If she wanted to cross the road?
Madhudviṣa: No, no. That lady may have been walking home with a cartload, with booze, to kill herself. So when she got knocked over and all her liquor fell out on the ground and you didn't help her up with it, then maybe it was good that you left her there.
Guest 1: No, I think that particular situation where he helped the lady across the road...
Prabhupāda: No, particular situation is different. But generally if we do not know what is the ultimate goal, then we misguide. That is the point. So either in society or politics or economics or religion, philosophy, culture—everyone is engaged in some department. But if that leader does not know what is the ultimate goal of life, how he will lead? That is given direction in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in two verses. One verse is: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse. It is in the First Canto. Who can...? Where is? First of all find out this verse.