Varnasrama (Conv. 1976 - 1977)

Expressions researched:
"four asramas" |"four divisions" |"four groups" |"four orders" |"four varnas" |"orders of human society" |"orders of life" |"social divisions" |"social order" |"social statuses" |"spiritual orders" |"varna and asrama" |"varnas and asramas" |"varnasrama"

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- February 5, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: A living entity means ānandamaya, enjoyment. But that ānanda, where it is permanent ānanda, how we have to reach that permanent ānanda, that is being taught. Otherwise, you foolish, you'll eat the whole medicine and die. That's all. Therefore the varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma means that is real human civilization. There is direction that "You enjoy like this." And if you become mlecchas and yavanas, then you'll not enjoy. You simply suffer. You do not know how to enjoy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if one abides by the law of God, then he can become happy.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Morning Walk -- February 5, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Whatever direction is there, you take that. The medicine is given. Doctor gives direction. "So many drops you can take." Now you say, "Oh, the good medicine. Let me eat the whole thing. I become cured immediately." Then you die. You have to take, enjoy, but according to direction. God does not say that "You don't enjoy." You are, what is called, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). A living entity means ānandamaya, enjoyment. But that ānanda, where it is permanent ānanda, how we have to reach that permanent ānanda, that is being taught. Otherwise, you foolish, you'll eat the whole medicine and die. That's all. Therefore the varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma means that is real human civilization. There is direction that "You enjoy like this." And if you become mlecchas and yavanas, then you'll not enjoy. You simply suffer. You do not know how to enjoy.

Morning Walk -- February 5, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: That is stated in Viṣṇu Purāṇa.

varṇāśramācāra-vatā

puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān

viṣṇur ārādhyate panthā

nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam

(CC Madhya 8.58)

That is said, varṇāśrama-dharma. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, unless one comes to the regulation of varṇāśrama-dharma, that is not human civilization. That is actually the fact. That is the same dog's society. That is going on. If there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified brāhmaṇa, who will give direction? There is no... If there is no kṣatriya, then who will give protection? If there is no vaiśya, then who will produce food? And if there is no śūdra, then who will work for general assistance? This is scientific.

Morning Walk -- February 5, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Without varṇāśrama-dharma there is no civilization. Yes. They are trying to abolish this under the name of "caste system." It is not caste system. Caste system, or whatever you call, there must be these four division. Not four, eight. This is general, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Then, according to the brahminical culture, the spiritual, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. And after sannyāsa, then spiritual life, complete, śuddha-sattva. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you have to establish varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāra. Ācāra. Ācāra. Varṇāśrama ācāra. Yes. Because the aim is... Again we come to the... Just like state affairs going on, but ultimate aim is to keep the government satisfied.

Morning Walk -- February 9, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: ISKCON is not going to be social reformer, but as far as possible, we can help. Our main business is how to make everyone Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our business. We cannot take up, but if possible, we can take up all the system of varṇāśrama.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If varṇāśrama is neglected, then how can there be proper functioning of society?

Prabhupāda: No. If the society chants Hare Kṛṣṇa seriously, then it is all right. Never mind whatever is done. It doesn't matter. Pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. This is the power of hari-saṅkīrtana. If one is absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all benefit is there. So long in the bodily concept of life, we require this varṇāśrama-dharma. Otherwise there is no necessity.

Morning Walk -- February 9, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu you have read in the eighth chapter, Madhya-līlā, talk between Rāmānanda Rāya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu? So "Perfectional life how begins?" This question was raised by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and Rāmānanda replied, "It begins with the varṇāśrama-dharma, regulated social life."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He rejected that.

Morning Walk -- February 9, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Not rejected. "Yes, it is not very important." Eho bāhya: "This is external." Āge kaha āra: "If you know something more." So the varṇāśrama-dharma is a good help undoubtedly, but it is not important for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise how could I start this movement in the Western country? There was no varṇāśrama-dharma. But that did not hamper my movement. Now people are surprised: "How these people have become such great devotees." So it was not based on varṇāśrama-dharma, no, because the whole movement is spiritual. It starts from the spiritual platform, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109).

Morning Walk -- February 9, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: And this varṇāśrama-dharma, sannyāsa, varṇa-tyāga, karma-tyāga, these are different steps only. But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious seriously, then you jump over all these steps; you go immediately. That lift and the staircase. By staircase you go step by step. By lift you can go immediately, faster.

Hṛdayānanda: Even some of these women, they're not married but they are serving Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ (BG 9.32). This striya, generally they take it, "Even she is prostitute," striya. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim: "They can also go back to home, back to Godhead." Māṁ hi pārtha... If he takes Kṛṣṇa very seriously, then everything is possible. No impediment. Ahaituky apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa devotional service is so strong that it cannot be checked by any material impediments.

Morning Walk -- February 9, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ (BG 9.32). This striya, generally they take it, "Even she is prostitute," striya. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim: "They can also go back to home, back to Godhead." Māṁ hi pārtha... If he takes Kṛṣṇa very seriously, then everything is possible. No impediment. Ahaituky apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa devotional service is so strong that it cannot be checked by any material impediments. The smārtas, they are thinking like that, "How these mlecchas and yavanas can become a brāhmaṇa?" But they do not know that by Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can jump over. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Māyā is very strong. Therefore there are gradual process. Varṇāśrama-dharma, karma-tyāga, this, that, so many things, pious activities, rituals. But this is the process, step by step, to cross over māyā. But Kṛṣṇa said, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te.

Morning Walk -- March 10, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: They... According to different position and attitude, the four āśramas are there: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. This means that everyone is not on the equal platform. Different platform. But the whole idea is how to give up the propensity of enjoyment. That is wanted.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We find in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam that Śukadeva Gosvāmī would approach the householders in the morning just so long as to give them a little bit of spiritual knowledge, and he would accept the offering of some milk. So the sannyāsīs and renunciates, generally, they wouldn't very much relish the association of householders because of this enjoying spirit and the association that it entails.

Morning Walk -- April 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...intelligence and kṣatriya's executive power and vaiśya's productive capacity and śūdra's labor. This combined together makes the whole society perfect.

Dr. Patel: How this social order can be generated in India?

Prabhupāda: (to passerby:) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Indian man: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: The kṣatriya's duty is that everyone is religious. It doesn't matter whether he follows Muslim or.... That is kṣatriya's duty, not that to discriminate, "The Hindu religion is better than the Muslim religion. Muslim..." That is not the way. If everyone is religious, it doesn't matter whether he is Hindu...

Morning Walk -- April 15, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes, anyone. Anyone. It is open to everyone. So therefore we are trying to open centers, all parts of the world, to give them chance of sat-saṅga, so that gradually they will become perfect. And that is happening actually. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said that you find out some first-class men. No. He said, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa. It is not necessary that you have to find out some qualified person. Anyone. Simply instruct him what Kṛṣṇa has said, that's all. Yāre dekha tāre kaha. There is no question of selecting. Why selection? All are fallen. The so-called gentleman, he is also fallen.

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

As soon as you see he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is within these four groups: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayā... Immediately conclude.

Morning Walk -- June 11, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Who will take it? Jñānīs, yogis, the same thing—"Oh, I am so.... I am great yogi. So many people considers me that I am God, and I shall give up this profession?" Is it possible? Who will do it? Caitanya-caritāmṛta there is a verse, eta saba chāḍi' āra varṇāśrama-dharma, akiñcana hañā...(?) That's it. Varṇāśrama, even varṇāśrama-dharma one has to give up. (japa—break) ...department asked me, "Swamiji, how long you want to stay here?" (laughs) I said.... I thought that "I have got this sponsoring one month, maybe another month. So two months." I thought, "Two months is a very long duration, because I'll not be able to do anything. As soon as I will put my program, they will be: 'Go away, please.' " I was under this impression. "Let me try." That is the subject matter of the poetry, that "I have no hope. Who will accept this, especially in this country, so much engrossed in materialistic way of life? And I shall say, 'Give up everything.' Who will take it?"

Garden Conversation -- June 14, 1976, Detroit:

Jayādvaita: At the college programs, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and I have been giving a lot of classes on varṇāśrama-dharma. Because they always want to hear something about the Hindu caste system, so they'll take us on that basis. And then we speak about varṇāśrama-dharma. And they don't have any idea to defeat it. They always, some little weak argument, but they don't have any better system.

Prabhupāda: What is their argument?

Jayādvaita: Hardly.... Well, they have some idea, they argue that there's no social mobility, because they all have some bodily idea that caste by birth.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: So, here in this Bhagavad-gītā, it is ordered that the human society must be divided into four divisions, and they should cooperate for understanding God. Just like in our body there is the head, there is the arm, there is the belly and there is the leg. So they are all cooperating for maintaining the body. Although head is very important than the leg, but leg is also required. Simply head will not be able to keep the body in good condition.

Interview with Kathy Kerr Reporter from The Star -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: There is no such word as Hindu religion. You do not know. There is no such word as Hindu religion, at least in the Vedas. The religion is translated into Sanskrit as "characteristic." Religion is not a kind of faith. Just like chemical composition. Sugar is sweet—that is religion. Sugar must be sweet. Sugar cannot be pungent. Or chili must be pungent. If chili is sweet, we reject it, and sugar is pungent, you reject it. Similarly, our Vedic system is to train the human being to the ultimate goal of his life. That system is called varṇāśrama-dharma, gradually training the person how to become perfect human being and understand the goal of his life. That is our activity. It is not meant for any particular sect or particular nation. No. It is meant for the whole human society, how to make them perfect in the goal of his life.

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: All the duties, the summarization of duty: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. There are different duties, but the real duty is saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13), whether you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll have done all.... Ataḥ pumbhiḥ. Because there are different types of duties. But whatever you do, the success is whether by your duty you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful.

Indian man (4): Prabhu, how do you regard the detachment idea?

Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Simple thing. And then live comfortably, eat comfortably, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Comfortably does not mean satisfaction of the senses. Comfortably means we require primary necessities, to eat something, to sleep somewhere or have some sex—this is also bodily need—and to defend, that's all. These are the primary necessities. That can be arranged anywhere. God has given all facilities. Grow your own food, eat, and live anywhere. Just this place was rough like that, now it is handled nicely, it is very attractive. (Bengali) Any damn place, you cleanse it, it becomes home. And any nasty man, you decorate him, he becomes a bridegroom. (laughs) (Bengali) (japa) Let Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement give this sense to these rascals. They do not know how to adjust things. They simply plan their United Nations, but they do not know what is that plan. Yes. United Nations. First of all why nation? Why manufacture nation and create trouble and again ununited? Nation—this word is not there in the Vedic language. There's no conception of nation. There is conception of varṇāśrama, everywhere.

Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody has criticized them. They have taken it seriously; otherwise, why they have published? Yes, that's right. What they have done except barking? "I am American," "I am Russian," "I am this," "I am that," that's all. If you keep them dogs and hogs and, nicely dressed, they go to United Nations and talk of unity, is it possible? Can the dogs and hogs can unite? Common sense. You bring all the dogs of this neighborhood and ask them "Don't bark now. Live peacefully," (laughter) will they be able? (laughs) The United Nation is like that. They're kept as dogs and they're advised, "Now keep peacefully." Is it possible? They have no common sense even. First of all, let them become human beings. Conference is going on, big conference, and Jawaharlal Nehru has imitated, that in the conference there are different languages, different..., but if somebody is speaking in any language you'll hear it in your own language. Remember? In New Delhi he has done that. This rascal thought, "Now I am finished, I have done my duty." All rascals. (japa) Thus our definition, that anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's either in these four groups, bas, final. You just try to prove it. Hm? Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja? You have any doubt about it?

Prabhupada Inspects New BTG -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: "You have to train him in such a way that he cannot become corrupt."

Reporter: "What is that training process?" Prabhupāda: "That training is the varṇāśrama-dharma, a system of dividing society into four social and four spiritual orders according to people's natural quality. Divide the society according to quality and train people in the principle that everything belongs to God and should be used in the service of God. Then there really can be one nation under God."

Reporter: "But if society is divided into different groups, won't there be envy?"

Prabhupada Inspects New BTG -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: "You require brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras. Just as when you want to construct a building you require engineers. You don't want sweepers. Isn't that so? What will the sweeper do? No. There must be engineers. So if you follow the division of varṇāśrama, only kṣatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly, the senators, only qualified brāhmaṇas. Now the butcher is in the legislative assembly. What does he know about making laws? He is a butcher. But by winning votes he becomes a senator. At the present moment, by the principle of vox populi, a butcher goes to the legislature. So everything depends on training. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society we are actually doing that. But in the case of politics they forget it. There cannot be just one class. That is foolishness.

Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We were finding, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that they could not defeat varṇāśrama dharma. They had no society like varṇāśrama. In the colleges, they could not understand this body, but we showed them how the society could be arranged harmoniously, and they had no alternative. Their ideas on how to structure society for everyone's happiness, they have no good ideas. So that preaching platform they could understand, varṇāśrama.

Prabhupāda: They'll understand. I'm just pointing out the difficulties of your preaching. You'll have to face all these difficulties. They're like cats and dogs. They are not even human beings. Therefore the business is little hard job. You have to deal with cats and dogs.

Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "In this Sixteenth Chapter the Lord explains both the transcendental nature and its attendant qualities as well as the demoniac nature and its qualities. He also explains the advantages and disadvantages of these qualities. The word abhijātasya in reference to one born of transcendental qualities or godly tendencies is very significant. To beget a child in a godly atmosphere is known in the Vedic scriptures as garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. If the parents want a child in the godly qualities they should follow the ten principles of the human being. In Bhagavad-gītā we have studied also before that sex life for begetting a good child is Kṛṣṇa Himself. Sex life is not condemned provided the process is used in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness at least should not beget children like cats and dogs but should beget them so they may become Kṛṣṇa conscious after birth. That should be the advantage of children born of a mother or father absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The social institution known as varṇāśrama dharma, the institution dividing society into four divisions or castes, is not meant to divide human society according to birth. Such divisions are in terms of educational qualifications. They are to keep the society in a state of peace and prosperity. The qualities mentioned herein are explained as transcendental qualities meant for making a person progress in spiritual understanding so he can get liberated from the material world."

Prabhupāda: So where is that institution to train people to acquire these transcendental qualities? There is no such institution.

Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "In the varṇāśrama institution the sannyāsī, or the person in the renounced order of life, is considered to be the head or the spiritual master of all the social statuses and orders. A brāhmaṇa is considered to be the spiritual master of the three other sections of society, namely the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. But a sannyāsī, who is on the top of the institution, is considered to be the spiritual master of the brāhmaṇas also. For a sannyāsī the first qualification should be fearlessness. Because a sannyāsī has to be alone without any support or guarantee of support, he has simply to depend on the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he thinks 'After leaving my connections, who will protect me?' he should not accept the renounced order of life. One must be fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect as Paramātmā, is always within, and He is seeing everything, and that He always knows what one intends to do. One must have this firm conviction that Kṛṣṇa as Paramātmā will take care of a soul surrendered unto Him. 'I shall never be alone,' one should think..."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Don't divert your attention.

Garden Conversation -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Maunam, like in silence. Mauna-vrata-śruta-tapo-'dhvavana?

mauna-vrata-sruta-tapo-'dhyayana-sva-dharma-

vyākhya-raho-japa-samādhaya āpavargyaḥ

prāyaḥ paraṁ puruṣa te tv ajitendriyānāṁ

vārtā bhavanty uta na vātra tu dāmbhikānām

(SB 7.9.46)

"O Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are ten prescribed methods on the path to liberation—to remain silent, not to speak to anyone, to observe vows, to amass all kinds of Vedic knowledge, to undergo austerities, to study the Vedas and other Vedic literatures, to execute the duties of varṇāśrama-dharma, to explain the śāstras, to stay in a solitary place, to chant mantras silently, and to be absorbed in trance. These different methods for liberation are generally only a professional practice and means of livelihood..."

Prabhupāda: Means of livelihood.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: The charge is false. Those who have charged like that, they do not know what is Hinduism. There is no such thing as Hinduism, but there is mention of sanātana-dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. That we can find in the scriptures. I've already given note.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I have that.

Prabhupāda: So what is his, what is the charge?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He says that people are accusing that Hinduism, it inhibits the progress of mankind.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So that is Vedic civilization. But these asses, they do not see that "These men are working like us, like dogs and asses. So they are escaping." Yes, escaping your fruitless endeavor. So the Vedic civilization was meant for self-realization. Vedic civilization begins from the varṇāśrama system. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). How to realize Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the system is varṇāśrama. In another place it is said, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer (SB 1.5.17). The varṇāśrama means there is division: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But the ultimate goal is viṣṇur ārādhyate. The Supreme Lord should be worshiped. That is the idea. So if Viṣṇu ārādhana is available immediately, then you can give up all other occupational duty as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, as a brahmacārī, everything.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: No, no. They are misguided. First of all, the Hinduism is also misguiding. There is no such thing as Hinduism. It is sanātana-dharma and varṇāśrama-dharma. I do not know how this word... Most probably it was given by the Mohammedans, "Hindus." But there is no such thing. In Bhagavad-gītā I don't find any word as "Hindu." Is there any word? Throughout the whole? There is no such thing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's a second part to this question also, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They ask: if it's false that actually Hinduism is not fatalistic or sanātana-dharma is not fatalistic...

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: No, no. Progress... The thing is that if you try progress vainly, what is the use of trying? If it is a fact you cannot change your destiny, so why should you try for that? Better... That is the... Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta. Therefore whatever energy you have got, you utilize it for understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Make it clear. Just like our society. We are, our main business is how to make advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not very enthusiastic to open big, big factories and big, big money-earning machine. No. We are not interested. We'll be satisfied with the amount of happiness or distress, whatever we are destined. Let us utilize our energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the point. So the Vedic civilization is meant for realization of God. Viṣṇur aradhyate. So they try for that. And now, at the present moment.... Actually, the varṇāśrama-dharmi, they never tried for economic development. You'll find in India still, thousands of men taking bath in the Ganges. In the Kumbhamela... You have been in Kumbhamela?

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So far Vedic religion is concerned, it is not for the Hindus. That is to be understood. The sanātana-dharma. It is for all living entities, all human beings. It is called sanātana-dharma. That I have already explained. The living entity is sanātana, God is sanātana, and there is sanātana-dharma. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). And where Kṛṣṇa is described sanātana in the Eleventh Chapter. Do you remember? He is described as sanātana. Sanātanam. So actually, the Vedic system is called sanātana-dharma. Not Hindu dharma. This is a wrong conception. The sanātana-dharma is meant for all living entities, not the so-called Hindus, Muslims, Christians. For everyone. That is sanātana-dharma. These are later misconceptions, Hinduism and this ism, that ism, that ism. Actually, it is called sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. That is meant for everyone.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Therefore they called India as Hindustan, means on the other side of Sindu, or Hindu River. Otherwise, it has no Vedic reference. So this Hindu dharma has no Vedic reference. The real Vedic dharma is sanātana-dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. First of all he has to understand this. Now that sanātana-dharma, or Vedic dharma, being distorted, not being obeyed, not being carried properly, it has come to the understanding of Hinduism. That is a freak understanding. That is not real understanding. We have to study sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama-dharma. Then we'll understand what is Vedic religion.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: But India, they have given up the real religious system, sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. Fictitiously, they have accepted a hodgepodge thing which is called Hinduism. Therefore there is trouble. Everywhere, but India especially, they are... Vedic religion... Vedic religion means varṇāśrama-dharma. That is... Kṛṣṇa says, God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). So that is, what is called, obligatory. Just like law is obligatory. You cannot say that "I don't take this law." No. You have to take it if you want to have a happy. You cannot become outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished. So God says mayā sṛṣṭam. "It is given by Me." So how we can deny it? And that is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19).

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Just like law is obligatory. You cannot say that "I don't take this law." No. You have to take it if you want to have a happy. You cannot become outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished. So God says mayā sṛṣṭam. "It is given by Me." So how we can deny it? And that is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharmam means the order given by the God. The God says that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). "For the proper management of the human society, there should be these four divisions, social divisions." So you have to take it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This would be the prescription for all people?

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: We have already refuted. There is no such thing as Hinduism in the Vedic conception. It is sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama-dharma.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is sanātana-dharma so wide that everyone can be...

Prabhupāda: Sanātana means eternal. So na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The identification of the living entity is already described, that it does not perish after annihilation of this body. That is sanātana. So that is meant for everyone. Not that the Hindus, after giving up this body, exist, and the Muslim or Christian does not exist. Everyone exists. Everyone is eternal, so sanātana-dharma is meant for everyone.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is the way. That, I have already described it. It is not a sectarianism like Muslimism, Christianism or "Thisism..." Hinduism also now one of them. Actually, it is a way of life, varṇāśrama-dharma, how to become elevated to the spiritual platform. So that begins by the varṇāśrama-dharma, to select persons according to his capacity to different varṇas. Some of them selected, trained as brāhmaṇas. Some of them trained as kṣatriya, some of them as vaiśya, some of them as, remain... Those who cannot take any training, they are śūdras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Those who cannot take any training, they are śūdras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). That we have lost. The so-called Hinduism they have lost. And because they did not follow real varṇāśrama-dharma, therefore India, so many renegades, Muslim became... Once they become Muslim, there was no reformation. But according to Vedic principle, even one is fallen, he can be raised to the highest standard. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). One may... Saṁskārād bhaved dvija.

Evening Darsana -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: There is no question of gṛhastha or sannyāsī. It is a question of understanding. And Arjuna is gṛhastha, politician, fighter, and still he is selected to understand Bhagavad-gītā. So gṛhastha. (Hindi) ...in gṛhastha life or sannyāsī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that, kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya. (Hindi) I shall speak in English so that others.... Kibā vipra, whether one is a brāhmaṇa, kibā śūdra, or whether he is a śūdra, nyāsī kene naya, or whether he is a sannyāsī. That means whether he is a gṛhastha or brāhmaṇa, or.... There are eight varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, whatever he may be, out of these eight categories.

Evening Darsana -- July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: That is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

(SB 1.2.13)

Everyone is engaged in his occupational duties. Everyone is engaged. Generally according to Vedic civilization, the society is divided into eight divisions. Varṇāśrama-dharma it is called-four varṇas and four āśramas. Materially, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And spiritually, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. These eight divisions.

Evening Darsana -- July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: That is the defect of the modern civilization, that they do not care to know who is God and how to satisfy Him. That is the defect. The life is meant for, human life, for satisfying God. That is going on under religious system, and the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama-dharma. Dharma is not a kind of faith, religion is not a kind of faith, but it is a duty, varṇāśrama-dharma. So that duty we are forgetting. And therefore we are coming to the level of animals. Because the cats and dogs, they have no duty-animal. But human being has an obligation, a duty to understand God and to satisfy Him. That is human life. Without this knowledge, without this performance of duty, human life is on the level of animals. There are many other verses in this connection. Where are others? They are not present here?

Room Conversation -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. If they are getting respect talking all nonsense, and here we shall glorify the Supreme Lord, why not respect?

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

(SB 1.2.13)

When they try to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa, His glory, then the Ph.D. is perfect. And if continues to talk nonsense, then it is useless waste of time and labor.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: This is Vedic system of division. Brāhmaṇa... This is for our living condition, and then human life especially meant for spiritual realization, self-realization. For that purpose, again, another four divisions. Generally, the brahmacārī, student life; gṛhastha, married life; vānaprastha, retired life; and sannyāsa, renounced life. So at the end of life one should be renounced from all other responsibilities and completely devote his life for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. In this way, when a person dies in God consciousness, his life is perfect. This is Vedic civilization. Eight divisions, varṇa and āśrama. And if you simply produce śūdras, working class, then you cannot have any happiness. That is not possible. And nowadays democratic, if you send some śūdras to act as kṣatriyas, they cannot do it. You have got practical experience. In Vietnam, what happened?

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varṇa and āśrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma, by quality. In India, the varṇāśrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life, "There is no need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of kṣatriya, simply śūdras." Everywhere this is the position, the śūdra population, kalau śūdra sambhavaḥ. In this age everyone is a śūdra.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is there, the four divisions of human society, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So each one's duty is prescribed. Brāhmaṇa's duty, kṣatriya's duty, vaiśya's duty, śūdra's duty, brahmacārī's duty, everything is there.

Guest (3): But then you said before that if I think I'm brahmacārī, then I should be a brahmacārī. If I become a śūdra, I act as a śūdra.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you act as a brahmacārī, do your brahmacārī work, you'll be successful.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: If you are unfit for that occupation, why should you imitate, waste your time? If you are, you are fit for becoming a carpenter, why should you imitate a brāhmaṇa? Better be expert carpenter and serve Kṛṣṇa with the result of carpentry work. Then there is perfection. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam.

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

(SB 1.2.13)

So suppose you are a carpenter. You earn something. So out of that your income, you offer something to Kṛṣṇa. If, even you are poor man, you can bring some fruit or flower to Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa, I am poor man, I can't give You anything more. But I have secured this fruit and flower. Kindly accept it."

Room Conversation -- July 10, 1976, New York:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Others insist that the style of shaving the head identifies devotees of various spiritual orders. The long śikhās marks a man as a follower of Kṛṣṇa. Still another group says that the head-shaving simply stands for renunciation of the material world, its values and its pleasures. One or more of those reasons may be the true one. Possibly all of them have a multi-determined, have multi-determined the Kṛṣṇa cut. The how of the cut is simplicity itself. Commonly two men cut each others hair. Our pictures show how. Phase one of the cutting, known as the buzz-off, is done with ordinary..." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Buzz off?

Interview with Newsweek -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Just like... These are all discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā, what kind of social arrangement should be. That... It is called varṇāśrama-dharma. A brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha—these are different groups, and if they are favorably trained up then spiritual understanding becomes very easy.

Interviewer: Can you tell me a little bit about the future direction of the movement, how you plan to expand.

Prabhupāda: That is... That is going on already. Just like these boys, they did not know about Kṛṣṇa some years ago, but they are taking seriously. The same process, if it is continued, then people will take.

Interview with Religious Editor Of the Associated Press -- July 16, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Real Vedic principle is called varṇāśrama. Observing the principle of four varṇas. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. It is a very long science. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This is called varṇa. And brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is called āśrama. So the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama-dharma, not Hindu dharma. This is later contribution of the so-called scholars.

Interviewer: Well ah, I thank you very much for your time, your Grace, and I'm glad I finally got acquainted with you. I missed you in Brooklyn.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: And you are journalist, you are not expected to become a motor mechanic or a medical man. But your function is also required in the society. Similarly, the Vedic society was divided into different sections. That is called varṇāśrama-four varṇas, four āśramas. That is very scientific. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this system of division of society. It is perfect society. Therefore we are trying to introduce the varṇāśrama system, although it is very difficult nowadays. But if one becomes a devotee, which is above varṇāśrama-dharma, then the purpose is solved. In this age, although varṇāśrama-dharma is very scientific, and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this, but we are mostly trying to get to the topmost part of varṇāśrama, sannyāsa, or above that.

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: So actually this varṇāśrama system is meant for bringing the man in the lower status of life to the higher status of life. It doesn't matter one is born in a low-grade family. That is also said by Kṛṣṇa: māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yoni, lower grade. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ (BG 9.32). In the human society, woman, the vaiśya and the śūdra, they are considered in the lower status, not very intelligent. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. They can also become... So in the Western countries, according to Vedic calculation, they are mlecchas, yavanas, low grade. But Kṛṣṇa says ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, "He can also be elevated, to that extent as he can go back to home, back to Godhead." So this movement is directly giving the opportunity of Kṛṣṇa's service so that they can become immediately bona fide to the position in the highest grade of life, Vaiṣṇava, so that he can go back to home, back to Godhead.

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Interviewer: The almost the whole world, and all civilizations, look down upon the varṇāśrama-dharma as a system in which hierarchical and stratified conditions prevent human beings from progressing. They think of our system as...

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is progress. That I was talking with your Associated Press, press reporter. Just like they do not know that their material life means they are in the prison house for being punished. They are so dull headed they are taking the activities of punishment as regular life. A man is put into the prison house, and his engagement is breaking the bricks. So he has forgotten that "This breaking of bricks is not my business.

Conversation with George Harrison -- July 26, 1976, London:

Hari-śauri: The varṇāśrama system. It's very good.

Prabhupāda: This instruction of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam was never given before in the Western countries. This is the first time.

George Harrison: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they're appreciating. We are selling our books daily sixty thousand dollars. All over the world.

Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you're going to outdo Shakespeare soon. You'll have written more English words than William Shakespeare. (Prabhupāda laughs) Maybe you already have.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factory, big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign country, but their sons are never troubled. They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs. Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras, and brāhmaṇas are not meant for this.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: The varṇāśrama-dharma, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, this is plan just to teach the whole society how to perform yajña. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. Therefore this is the beginning of human civilization. Varṇāśrama. How to return back. Just like Bali Mahārāja. Bali Mahārāja achieved, obtained, throughout the universe all the property, and he again returned to Vāmana. That was his success of life. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to teach people how one should voluntarily return the property of the Lord to the Lord. That is called yajña. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). So people actually suffering. Not only... This material life means suffering. We may say that we are very happy, but that is not the fact.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Indian (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swamiji...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head—brāhmaṇa; the arms—kṣatriya; the belly—vaiśya; and the leg—śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there. So this varṇāśrama, revival of varṇāśrama is required.

Garden Conversation -- September 7, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Whatever work you already expert, you do that. Just like he is doing. Whatever he knows, he is giving service. He's not going for sewing cloth. Because he does not know that. Why should he waste time? He knows this art, let him do. That is service. Whatever you know, Kṛṣṇa can accept any service. Kṛṣṇa is not one-sided. Because He is everything, so he can accept every service, anything. That is stated, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Whatever you know, you try to please Kṛṣṇa, or Kṛṣṇa's representative. The same thing. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Whatever you know, saṁsiddhiḥ, the perfection is, hari-toṣaṇam. So we... Whatever we already know. If he's a medical man, whatever little medical knowledge he has got, he can utilize it by serving. Why he should go to Āyur-vedic? That is not.

Morning Walk -- December 5, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand. It is... The free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ: "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So the prescribed duty is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa and karma, there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brāhmaṇa, you do the brāhmaṇa's work. If you are a kṣatriya, you do the kṣatriya's... Niyataṁ kuru karma. What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Kṛṣṇa's in... But if you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). But you are foolish; then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender to Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma. Kṛṣṇa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But he says, niyataṁ kuru karma. Find out this verse.

Morning Walk -- December 5, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Te hitam. So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals-eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, utmost, śūdra, like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping, and sex, and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong then, "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there.

Room Conversation -- December 20, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Because you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa unless you are free from all sinful activities. Anyone who is sinful, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). We test him. We test like this, that Kṛṣṇa says this, that anyone who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, he is under the four groups: duṣkṛtina, mūḍhāḥ, narādhamāḥ, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. That's it. We are fools and rascals, we have no such education. But we take Kṛṣṇa's word that "Here is a fool, here is a sinful man, here is a narādhamāḥ, here is māyayāpahṛta." So unless you stick to this point, that we shall preach Bhagavad-gītā (indistinct) then there is no meaning of it. You are misled, you will mislead others. But if you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, as Kṛṣṇa said, then... If you are not prepared to do that, then however (indistinct) interpretation, thousands of literatures, the result is (indistinct). This is practical.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 6, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is within you. If you actually want to serve Kṛṣṇa, he'll give you intelligence. He says personally, dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam. What kind of?—yena mām upayānti te. So it is automatically available if you are sincerely desiring to serve Kṛṣṇa. Na toṣana chādiyā varṇāśrama-dharma. (break)

Girirāja: So today... Actually I was thinking of phoning his wife because she was not well or one of our ladies could call her and then if she's still not well they could go and visit her. And if she is well, they could invite her that if she wants to come then she'll bring him.

Prabhupāda: Mm. Don't bother. But as an etiquette (indistinct).

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Rāmeśvara: Do you think that they will adopt Indian medicine over Western medicine, things like that? Because there has to be some varṇāśrama.

Prabhupāda: No, medicine, if it is actually medicine, it will be accepted. It doesn't matter whether it is Indian or Western. If it is medicine it will be accepted.

Rāmeśvara: So that kind of research is in the mode of goodness.

Prabhupāda: That is already there. We have to make little research. It, already there. There are books, Āyurvedic books. They are very nice. Everything can be done. Dhanvantari. It is given by Dhanvantari avatāra, incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.

Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you can accept a suitable situation according to your convenience. There is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Four orders are there. Whichever is suitable for you, accept. But don't forget the problem and the aim of life. And we don't want men giving some quotation from a book just like these so-called scholars do. He has not gone through the book, but take some suitable passage and note, and then he advertises himself that he has studied so many book. "Bibliography." Is it not? So-called scholar?

Room Conversation -- February 10, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be trained up. And dviṣatsu, envious. Four division. So four divisions you have to treat in different ways. Prema, Lord, prema, love. Maitrī, friendship with devotees. Kṛpā bāliśu, those who are innocent, the kṛpā. Let them learn. And upekṣā. As soon as come to the dviṣat, no cooperation. Keep aloof. So when we try to keep aloof from the envious, that is not our enviousness. That is just to avoid trouble for preaching work. Not that we hate them. But because... When you avoid a snake, it does not mean I hate the snake, but because he is harmful we have to take precaution. This is the statement of Bhāgavatam. And when you are in the mahā-bhāgavata stage, first-grade, that time, paramahaṁsa, nobody's enemy, nobody's friend.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ

yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam

dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca

kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.43)

He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because kṣatriya. They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Satsvarūpa: Varṇāśrama is not required.

Prabhupāda: Not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied, "I am not brāhmaṇa, I am not kṣatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gītā, the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). So we are Kṛṣṇa..., preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It must be done.

Hari-śauri: But in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Satsvarūpa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varṇāśrama. That's the easiest.

Prabhupāda: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Satsvarūpa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasāda...

Prabhupāda: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varṇāśrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varṇāśrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Hari-śauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varṇāśrama is not possible.

Prabhupāda: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

Hari-śauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varṇāśrama and like that.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thākaha āpanāra kāje, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Āpanāra kāja ki. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, sthāne sthitaḥ. And if they do not remain in the sthāna, then the sahajiyā's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyās also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyāsa but he was given sannyāsa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varṇāśrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarūpa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas. There must be regular education.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Hari-śauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava is not so easy. The varṇāśrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaiṣṇava. It is not so easy to become Vaiṣṇava.

Hari-śauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava, is not so easy. If Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyāsa is for the highest qualified brāhmaṇa. And simply by dressing like a Vaiṣṇava, that is... fall down.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Hari-śauri: So the varṇāśrama system is like for the kaniṣṭhas, Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha?

Hari-śauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, yes.

Hari-śauri: Varṇāśrama system is beneficial.

Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī means he must be a brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. The spiritual life, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, means he must be a qualified brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brāhmaṇa, that is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: When one is situated in devotional service, tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. These are rajas-tamo... These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye, ceta etair anāviddham (SB 1.2.19). The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Then he is to be understood... He's in the sattva-guṇa. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. Prasīdati. In this way, gradual step... So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varṇāśrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that?

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

Hari-śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?

Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.

Hari-śauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

Prabhupāda: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varṇāśrama, not everybody brāhmaṇa.

Hari-śauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpur or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brāhmaṇas or sannyāsīs. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Kṛṣṇa's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said para-upakāra. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Para-upakāra means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varṇāśrama-dharma.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakāra. We have to keep them in the right position.

Hari-śauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varṇāśrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.

Satsvarūpa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaiśya. But nothing else happened.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varṇāśrama.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Ha. So Kṛṣṇa arranged: "All right, you come together and finish yourselves." So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield-one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not kṣatriya. This is demonic. Kṣatriyas' business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not kṣatriyas. They are not kṣatriyas. They are demons. So demons... As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Hari-śauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varṇāśrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...

Prabhupāda: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."

Hari-śauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.

Prabhupāda: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.

Hari-śauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Example. Just like Bhavānanda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He's a sannyāsī Vaiṣṇava. Similarly, āpani ācari' jīve śikhāilā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "I am not a sannyāsī." But He took sannyāsa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyāsī, for God? But He became that. (break) In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varṇāśrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varṇāśrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce. Now the days of wind will come from March.

Room Conversation -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now arrange for big festival. There is a program, Manipur. I want to start in that small state varṇāśrama idea. That is my dream. Small state it can be done, brāhmaṇa, kṣatri... So when you arrived in the airport?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we first... The airplane that we came on landed in Delhi, and we went down to Bombay yesterday morning. So we stayed the day in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: You have seen the progress?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Going on all right?

Room Conversation about BTG the Moon -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: ...the leaders agree, organize it. Then others take it. We can begin there this varṇāśrama program.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are you planning to go there, to Manipur?

Prabhupāda: I shall expect to go. It requires...

Hari-śauri: Svarūpa Dāmodara.

Prabhupāda: No, on our part.

Hari-śauri: That's not... The traveling there is not the strain. It's doing the programs and seeing so many people. That's a big strain.

Prabhupāda: That is not... Strain is traveling.

Room Conversation -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: ... we'd know how to defend? Like you were saying varṇāśrama...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...system there must be kṣatriya and everything like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Should we actually start to...

Prabhupāda: Train.

Hari-śauri: ...train up some of our men so they know how to fight?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?

Room Conversations -- February 20, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Then that will be very nice. I want to have a small Vaiṣṇava state-varṇāśrama ideal.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is possible in Manipur.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I thought it. Ideal Vaiṣṇava state. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they are doing very nicely, and people will be surprised, "Oh." There is no question of hatred. It is division for proper discharge of duty.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I saw in the airport, the policemen, they have this tilaka.

Prabhupāda: Tilaka.

Room Conversation -- February 25, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: If you can introduce this system, varṇāśrama, then it will establish. No more change. This is a rascal's government, this democracy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Demoncracy."

Prabhupāda: "Demoncracy."

Hari-śauri: "Demon-crazy."

Prabhupāda: "Demon-crazy." (laughter) Demon and crazy. Not only demon... There are demons whose brain is all right, but they are crazy also.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- February 28, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: ...the varṇāśrama established, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra-division, scientific division of the society. Ideal state. Just like the legislative assembly. They should be composed of men with complete brahminical culture. And the ministers, president, they should be kṣatriya, and the productive, vaiśyas, and balance śūdra, worker. Unless an ideal class of men is on the top of the state to give advice—just like Britishers, they assemble Parliament—there cannot be any improvement to the human society. All nonsense and rascals, simply by votes go to be member of the Parliament. They assemble. What they know? What they'll do?

Room Conversation with Scientists, Svarupa Damodara, and Dr. Sharma -- March 31, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The ant hill, and four-legged wheel. That's all. Four wheel legs. This is animal civilization. Without knowing the aim of life, living in big, big skyscraper building, "I am king." And running like dogs with four wheel car, Mercedes. This is dog civilization. It is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when they take Kṛṣṇa's instructions: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Divide the whole human society into four divisions and let them cooperatively act for the benefit of God. That is civilization. There civilization begins. Otherwise, what is the difference between dog and the human being? There is no difference. The leaders are teaching, "Feel like Indians." As a dog is feeling, "I am bulldog." This is our leaders. (Hindi)

Interview with Mr. Koshi (Asst. Editor of The Current Weekly) -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Mr. Koshi: And the shaving of the head with the little...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Varṇāśrama. Varṇāśrama. This is āśrama. He is sannyāsī, he must take to it.

Mr. Koshi: And the avoidance of...

Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So just like if you take, become a police officer, you must take the dress.

Mr. Koshi: Uniform. No, but say the avoidance of tea and coffee and all that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Talk -- April 18, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Is that civilization? Human being should be calm and quiet, peaceful and advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There must be four divisions, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, everything. Everything is lost. From the very morning, "Where is bread? Where is bread?" We have no fixed income, but we are so pure(?). We are maintaining big establishment. Who has got so big establishment? And what is our asset? Asset is only Kṛṣṇa. For ordinary karmīs to maintain such house and such big establishment...

Conversation with Tamala Krsna about Yadubara -- April 22, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Then we would show how Lord Kṛṣṇa's teachings are still manifest in India today by the nine devotional processes and the predominant role Kṛṣṇa plays in the culture and religious life of the people in temple worship, painting, dance, music and lifestyle, including offering and taking prasādam, varṇāśrama-dharma, etc... Then testimonials could be given by prominent supporters of our movement and perhaps a short statement by Your Divine Grace..."

Prabhupāda: There is some big, big temples and their proprietor... In every city there are so many Kṛṣṇa temples. Just like in Kanpur there is very important Dvārakādhīśa temple. Many such big cities they have got Kṛṣṇa's pastimes(?).

Evening Darsana -- May 13, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Prabhupāda: Dehinaḥ and deha. So anyone who is identifying with this body in either... According to Vedic civilization, the bodily identification is divided into eight: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Varṇāśrama-dharma. So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, cātur-varṇyam, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa. After fiftieth year one must take to vānaprastha, vanaṁ vrajet.

Conversation, 'Rascal Editors,' and Morning Talk -- June 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: For that, they are making scientific research how to satisfy senses. So kāmasya na indriya-prītiḥ. You require some sense gratification not for the senses, but because you have got a bad bargain, this body, just to maintain it, not more than. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. So there are so many problems we have created. They do not understand. And this civilization are simply gratifying senses, so dangerous. And dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). And they create a position by very, very hard labor, and the body is changed. Then śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). What benefit you get? This life, you make a skyscraper building, three dozen cars, and next life, you become a dog. Then what is your profit? What do you gain? They do not gain anything. So that change of body is in nature's hand. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). That is not in your hand. When the body will change, you cannot say, "No, no, I'll not change," because that is not under your dictation. So is not simply waste of time?

Talk About Varnasrama, S.B. 2.1.1-5 -- June 28, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Then he... Father-mother knows that he'll take care of his life automatically. And the boy and the girl are not allowed to mix with second girl, second boy. They are kept strictly. And when they're grown up, they're allowed to mix and the affection becomes firm. These are psychology. It is the psychology of woman that before puberty, if she has got a boy, she loves forever. She'll never be unchaste. So these marriage things are done very psychologically, scientifically, so that they may become happy, and then, in peaceful mind, combine together, good cooperation, they make progress, spiritual. This is the plan, varṇāśrama-dharma. Very scientific. And Kṛṣṇa says, "I am that." Whatever Kṛṣṇa shall give-perfect. Nobody cares. They are suffering.

Room Conversation with Mr. Myer -- July 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So do nicely. And as far as our capacity is there, kṛṣṇārthe akhila-ceṣṭaḥ. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā. Janma-sāphalyam... Etāvaj janma-sāphalyam. Do it. Do this. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṇam. This is..., should be... This should be the motto, how we engage our life, our money, our intelligence, our words, to improve Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is success. Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). What is that verse, beginning?

Akṣayānanda: Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Room Conversation with Mr. Myer -- July 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Ah, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ...

Akṣayānanda: Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya...

Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). That is required. You... How do you know Morarji is interested in...?

Mr. Myer: Well, all the government bosses now, they have defined that "We don't want any big industry." They want all the people in villages. They don't want to use fertilizer.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is our...

Room Conversation With Son (Vrindavan De) -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So that fortune is... By fortune he gets a guru. And by the instruction of guru he gets Kṛṣṇa. So to create fortune we have to take this regulative principle, to become fortunate that someday he'll be able to meet somebody who is real guru and who will give him real guidance. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Therefore pious activities and other things, yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā, these things are recommended, to acquire the qualities of brāhmaṇa. These things are required. If he remains like animal, that fortune will never come. This is the architecture. So that fortune begins when he enters the varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas and four āśramas. That is a easiest way. Fortune does not come that "This is very important.

Room Conversation about Mayapura Attack Talk with Vrindavan De -- July 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: You can say, but who made you representative? You can say all nonsense. That is your business. (break)... who will give something standard, they'll be established. That standard is in this varṇāśrama. Here is the standard, that leg must be there, the hand must be there, the head must be there, the belly must be... One who has got the qualities to work like hand, he must work as hand. That is natural. These rascals have no education actually. Therefore I always say, "rascals." They manufacture. They are imperfect, and they manufacture. (break) "Probably," "maybe," like that. No standard logic. So, (Bengali)

Room Conversation Varnasrama -- July 14, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That's what I... Similarly, weaver, that cloth weaving, "kat, kat." The wife is spinning, her husband is weaving, the children is weaving, and combinedly at the end of the day there is a cloth. And people were satisfied with simple necessities. They would not charge very much for the labor. And one nice cloth requires half a pound cotton. Half a pound cotton means maybe one rupee. Another one rupee for the labor. So now they are paying twenty to thirty rupees. Unnecessarily he has to earn this money and pay to the millionaires, and he will keep three dozen motorcars, so another man will be engaged in motorcar industry. In this way time is being wasted without any search after spiritual realization. Time is wasted in such so-called technology advancement. And the real purpose of life, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā, that is missing. And when you present that "This is the most important business of life," they say, "It is brainwashing." And they fight to check us, Communists and others, that "It is useless, God consciousness." (break) (long pause) So... Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Because they are missing the aim of life, they are committing suicide. And this varṇāśrama-dharma was planned in such a way that everyone would be spiritually advanced.

Room Conversation -- October 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: And money, spend for Kṛṣṇa—for Kṛṣṇa's palace, for Kṛṣṇa's temple, for Kṛṣṇa's worship, gorgeous, as gorgeously as... Not for false... This is the human civilization. And to organize this, varṇāśrama will help you to divide the society—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—as there is division in the body. That will help. Don't waste human form of body for sense gratification. I wanted to introduce this. Now I have given you ideas. You can do it. You are all intelligent. For Caitanya Mahāprabhu's para-upakāra... So you do good to others. Not exploit others. Any human being who has been bestowed by this body has the capacity to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them chance and make situation favorable. Is that clear?

Room Conversation Arrival of Jayatirtha and Harikesa -- October 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, very interesting meeting. Paramānanda, Vāmanadeva, Tripurāri Mahārāja, Ādi-keśava Mahārāja and myself discussing our Gītā-nagarī community and talking about varṇāśrama. Very, very... We were trying to reflect on all of the teachings in your books and what we had read about Kṛṣṇa's life and Nanda Mahārāja's community.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Room Conversation Arrival of Jayatirtha and Harikesa -- October 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How the vaiśya community lives, how the different varṇas and āśramas function together, and what their responsibilities are to each other. We're trying to set up our Gītā-nagarī community based upon the teachings which you've given in your books. It is very enlivening and stimulating meeting. Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja will be coming tomorrow with his brother. And he has designed the very ideal plan for all of the varṇas and āśramas to live together.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Do it.

Room Conversation -- October 10, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's so much to be done, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your activities are not completed yet. You have to install the Deities in Bombay, you have to live in your palace in New Vrindaban, you have to show varṇāśrama, you have to complete the Bhāgavatam, you have to live in a new house in Māyāpur, and we have to at least make a good start to begin the big temple in Māyāpur. Everything is still incomplete, what to speak of the fact that we are all very much neophyte still. We need you more than anything else. This movement has to last ten thousand years. We're not ready yet. We're still very much conditioned and contaminated. If you stay with us for another ten years at least, then there's chance that we can become purified more. And it's within your... It's within you to be able to do that. Kṛṣṇa will allow you to do that.

Prabhupāda: People are coming like before?

Room Conversation -- October 18, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Unless in the human society the varṇāśrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.

Bhagavān: Everything is there very clearly in your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: A man-made scheme-useless. Sāttvika-yuga.(?) What is that verse? Sattvāvalambi-para-sattva-viśuddha-sattvam... From Brahma-saṁhitā?

Prabhupada Vigil -- November 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Bhavānanda: Oh, yes. We're training up those who have children... They're trained in the varṇāśrama system. Some of the children in the school have a scholastic bent of mind, so they're educated in Sanskrit and higher studies. Some of them have a vaiśya bent of mind, and they work in the gośāla helping to develop..., milk the cows. Some are... Their parents are working in the handloom. They also have that desire, so they're trained to be handloomers. In this way we will be able to develop a city of fifty thousand devotees.

Śrī Bajaj: Let us not overstrain him and whatever if... He'll feel tired.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.