Prabhupāda: Spiritual master is the representative of God, or Kṛṣṇa. Just like if you work in some office, so there is one head man, representative of the proprietor of the company. You have to work under him. If you satisfy that person who is in charge of that department, that means you are satisfying the proprietor of the company. Is it clear? And he can give you direction how to work nicely because he's experienced. The boss. So spiritual master is external manifestation of God. God is within and without. Within, He is Supersoul. He will give you... If you are sincere, He will give you good counsel, "You do like this." You'll get dictation from within. That requires advancement of spiritual life. Then you get from within dictation. So God is helping from within and without. Within, as Paramātmā, and without as spiritual master. Both ways. As soon as you are sincere, then God will send you to somebody who is His bona fide spiritual representative. And if you take help from him, and help within and without... Just like a person going, or a boy going to a school, he's getting training in the school as well as home, both sides. Then his chance is very good. So we have to take both wise: from inside, from outside. You are doing some things in the service of the Lord. How you'll know that you are doing it properly or improperly? This you will know from the spiritual master. If he says, "It is all right," then it is all right. If he says, "It is not good," then it is not good. Just like the same way. The officer in charge, if he is satisfied (with) your work, that means you have satisfied the government or the supreme company, arranger, with whom you have no direct connection. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **. Therefore it is said that if you satisfy your spiritual master, that means you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. And yasya prasādād na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. And if you have not satisfied your spiritual master, then you must know that you are, what is called, there is no certainty about your whereabouts, what you are doing. Na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. Therefore, dhyāyan stuvaṁs tasya yaśas tri-sandhyaṁ vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. So spiritual master is necessary and his direction is necessary. That is the system of disciple succession. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, Arjuna is surrendering. He was Kṛṣṇa's friend. Why he surrendered himself, "I am your disciple." You see in the Bhagavad-gītā. He had no necessity. He was personal friend, talking, sitting, eating together. Still, he accepted Kṛṣṇa as spiritual master. So that is the way. There is a system to understand. It is specifically mentioned, śiṣyas te 'ham. "I am your disciple now." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). "You kindly instruct me." And then He began teaching Bhagavad-gītā. Unless one becomes a śiṣya, or disciple, it is prohibited, not to instruct. Not to inst... That instruction is useless. That is the system. We are instructing in the class because there are few disciples who have taken vow to learn from me. Otherwise, I have no business to teach the public. The public may come. But actual interest is to teach my disciples. But that is secondary. For the public, secondary. But real business is to teach the disciples. Just like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam was meant for Parīkṣit Mahārāja, Śukadeva Gosvāmī's disciple. But there were many others present. They also heard. Yes?
Unless one becomes... (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"unless Advaita becomes"
|"unless Arjuna becomes"
|"unless God becomes"
|"unless I become"
|"unless Krsna becomes"
|"unless he becomes"
|"unless one becomes"
|"unless they become"
|"unless we become"
|"unless you become"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: These are the qualities.
Allen Ginsberg: Whose list is that? Is that an old list or have you made that up for young Americans?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, these are taken from authoritative śāstras. Yes. This is the test, whether you are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious or not. You have to test yourself, whether you are developing these qualities. This is for testing.
Allen Ginsberg: I'm slowly developing all qualities except sanity. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Insanity for seeking Kṛṣṇa, that is required. Yes. Unless you become insane after Kṛṣṇa just like Lord Caitanya became... Yes. His worship is to become insane after Kṛṣṇa.
Allen Ginsberg: Is Kabir in the Vaiṣṇava tradition?
Guest (1): He is mystic.
Allen Ginsberg: So what tradition is he in, actually?
Prabhupāda: He is impersonalist on the whole. He is impersonalist, whole, and he has got some Vaiṣṇava thought. That's all, perverted thoughts. Perverted thoughts.
Allen Ginsberg: So who is the most perfect of the Vaiṣṇava poets? That would be Mīrā?
Guest (1): Mīrā was a devotee. She was a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee means...
Guest (1): Vaiṣṇava. She was, Mīrā, Kṛṣṇa devotee. Oh, her songs has called me.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Hayagrīva: That I not stay here.
Prabhupāda: You do not stay here?
Hayagrīva: Yes. I don't want to stay.
Prabhupāda: Unless you become president?
Hayagrīva: Unless I am in charge, I don't want to stay. I mean there are too many responsibilities that I've already assumed, and not to have the decisions as to what to do with the vehicles, what to do with this, what to do with that, I'd rather not have any part of it.
Prabhupāda: No, anyone who can manage everything, he should be in charge of the whole thing.
Hayagrīva: Well, factually he's in charge. Actually we very seldom have any disagreements on things.
Prabhupāda: All right. That's all right. Then you remain president. And let him become vice president. That will be all right? In case of your absence he will preside in the meeting. Will that be all right?
Hayagrīva: No, that's all right as long as I have final decision in certain matters, as to what to do with my vehicles, what to do with this and what to do with that.
Prabhupāda: No, you will hold meeting and decide in that meeting. If you form a committee, then whatever you do, something serious, you should consult the committee and do it.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: There are many instances. But this very word, "by birth one is śūdra," so there is no discrimination that "You are not śūdra. I am not...," by birth, abodha-jāto, because he is born foolish rascal. Now, by saṁskāra, by culture, by education, he becomes dvija, second birth. The practical example is these European and American students. They were doing all nonsense but since they have come to guru their life is reformed; therefore they are dvija. Saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ, veda-paṭhet... Now, when he becomes dvija, then he is allowed to study Vedas, not as a śūdra. When we say śūdra has no right to study Vedas, that means he will not be able to understand. Just like you became lawyer, but the condition is, unless you become graduate, unless you have graduated yourself, you cannot enter law college. That does not mean law is prohibited for anyone. It is open for everyone, but first of all you make yourself university graduate; then enter law. Similarly, everyone is śūdra.
Guest (2): A particular standard of understanding should be qualified.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So unless he has got saṁskāra, he is enlightened by culture and knowledge, unless he has become dvija, then there is no authority for studying Vedas. Veda-paṭhet. After one has become dvija, then he is allowed to study Vedas. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ, and veda-paṭhed bhaved vipraḥ. Vipra. Then he becomes... Gradually increasing, from śūdra he comes to dvija, then vipra. And after being vipra, after studying all the Vedas, when he realizes Brahman, then he is brāhmaṇa. Brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that, gradual process, gradual process and to make him a qualified brāhmaṇa. And when he becomes brāhmaṇa, then he knows Brahman. Then he makes spiritual progress. Without... Therefore, without becoming brāhmaṇa nobody can make spiritual progress. That is the door of spiritual knowledge. Then he makes progress, makes progress. So after understanding Brahman knowledge, then he comes to Paramātmā knowledge, then he comes to Bhāgavata knowledge.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: All-attractive.
Bob: All-attractive.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So unless God becomes all-attractive, how He can become God? (pause) A man is important when he's attractive. Is it not?
Bob: It is so.
Prabhupāda: So, God must be attractive and attractive for all. Therefore, if God has got any name, or if you want to give any name to God, only "Kṛṣṇa" can be given.
Bob: But why only the name Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Because all-attractive. Kṛṣṇa, this word, means all-attractive.
Bob: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. God has no name, but by His quality we give His name.
Bob: May He be called...?
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Why do they not make their own law, that I have got my own law. I don't care for state law." Will they be accepted?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll be caught.
Brahmānanda: Anyone who does that is either criminal or insane.
Prabhupāda: Yes, insane. All criminality is done when one is insane. That is the definition of the Vedas. Everyone is criminal when he's insane. Sane man never commits any criminality. Just like when a, when a man commits murder, unless he becomes insane, he cannot commit murder.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So among the college students, among the college students it's very common that they say: "I don't care what is said." These people, students.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to, I want to follow my own aim and desire, my own morality. They say like that.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why don't you do that in case of your relationship to the state. Suppose the state says: "You must drive to the right." Why don't you drive on the left? Why do you obey the state laws? What does he say? You do whatever you like.
Brahmānanda: That means there's someone more powerful than they are.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Goodness helps. But not... Unless you take it seriously... Then it depends upon the person. Even if he's not in goodness... That, just like all these European and Americans. They were not in goodness. They were on the platform of ignorance. But still, they, because they took it, therefore they are coming, progressively.
Revatīnandana: Sometimes the... Kṛṣṇa says you can understand all behavior in terms of the modes of nature, the three modes. I'm trying to understand why...
Prabhupāda: No, I'm... That is generally. Unless one becomes in goodness... But bhakti-mārga is transcendental. It does not depend on the qualities of this material nature. Ahaituki apratihatā. Ahaituki. Apratihatā. Nothing can check bhakti-mārga. Even one is in the platform of ignorance, it cannot check. It cannot check. Ahaituki apratihatā. Because it is purely spiritual. It does not depend on material conditions. It does not depend on material... These goodness, passion, ignorance, they are material conditions. So bhakti does not depend on material conditions.
Revatīnandana: Why is it then, that one person accepts it and another rejects it?
Prabhupāda: That is his choice.
Revatīnandana: That is from a spiritual position, his basic disposition?
Prabhupāda: That is his choice, yes. We have got this independence, to accept or not to accept.
Guest (10): So does faith develop from accepting?
Revatīnandana: Why they cannot understand?
Prabhupāda: Mister, yes... I forgot your name.
Popworth: John.
Prabhupāda: John, Mr. John. That we follow strictly the Vedic injunctions, and unless we become God conscious, there cannot be any reformation in this world.
Popworth: I agree with that.
Prabhupāda: That's all. And that God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). God is the supreme pure. You cannot approach God, you cannot understand God, in impure condition. And without God consciousness, there cannot be any purification. You try to understand this simple fact, that without God consciousness, you may prescribe so many things—they will be all failure, all failure. And God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. This is the problem. Now you can think over it.
Schumacher: I agree with that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathe... (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, how to become a brāhmaṇa, how to become a kṣatriya, how to become a vaiśya, how to become a śūdra, or how to remain less important than the śūdras. The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly... (end)
Prabhupāda: Ah! That requires Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest: Ah, yes.
Prabhupāda: Then you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest: Ultimately everything.
Prabhupāda: Unless you become a devotee.
Guest: Quite right.
Prabhupāda: Therefore śāstra says, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12).
Guest: Quite right.
Prabhupāda: Those who are nondevotee they cannot have any good quality.
Guest: You see therefore unless you have more production and good quality people...
Prabhupāda: Production. (indistinct) cooperate. Just like United Nations. We can produce 20 times production that is required.
Guest: Quite right.
Prabhupāda: So much land.
Guest: Quite right. In America, Australia, I have seen.
Bahulāśva: So unless they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then there is no solution.
Prabhupāda: No. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. There cannot be any good quality in human society unless accepts Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the... This dog is thinking that we may not cheat him, from the back we may not attack him. Just see. Therefore he is stopping.
Bahulāśva: He doesn't know that you are the ever well-wisher, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So you are going to carry the message to the government?
Prajāpati: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda. We're working on a...
Prabhupāda: That issue metal coin and the problem will be solved. But they will not take your advice.
Prajāpati: This is part of our platform. To even run for political office, we need solutions to the problems to offer as a platform. We will draw up various bills, ready for legislation, show them that we are serious.
Prabhupāda: So how you'll present it? The cheating process is going on. Unless you become God conscious, the cheating process will not stop. So there is no solution.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you love children for making them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is loving Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wants sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So if you help... What is our movement? Why I have come to your country? Because to make you Kṛṣṇa conscious. So there is love of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why what is the business, I have come to you? I have no business. Because I love Kṛṣṇa, I want to see all, everybody in the world to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise why in this old age we are trying so much? Similarly, if you love your children to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then produce hundreds of children and make them. That is love of Kṛṣṇa. And if you make them cats and dogs, then one children producing is also sinful. That is also sinful. But if you can make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then produce hundreds of children. That is Kṛṣṇa's love. The Bhāgavata says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt. "One should not become father, one should not become mother..." na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum, "...if he cannot deliver the children from the imminent hands of death." That is the condition. So if you cannot make... Death cannot be avoided unless one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you cannot make your children Kṛṣṇa conscious and stop their death, birth and death process, then don't become a father. This is the injunction. And if you can actually do that, then become father of hundreds children. This is the condition. If you cannot make your children... If you can make, that is love of Kṛṣṇa. Because unless you love Kṛṣṇa, why you should be interested to make others Kṛṣṇa conscious? Let them go to hell. Why you should be so much working hard to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious? Unless you love Kṛṣṇa? This is the sign of love." I love Kṛṣṇa, but I do nothing for Kṛṣṇa." That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Therefore I said that our Guru Mahārāja's brother, he criticizes Guru Mahārāja. But what he has done for Kṛṣṇa? And what my Guru Mahārāja has done? Unless my Guru Mahārāja had produced me, how this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going all over the world? And what he has done? Simply criticizing is no use. We want to see practical. Do you understand or not?
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are against religion. But actually, if we show that we are producing, we are managing, we are educating, then we can counteract the communist tendency. But they are seeing that, that escaping. They say, "They escape responsibility of worldly life and they're indulging in some religious..." That is the tendency. All... Everywhere the government is complaining like that. Therefore they do not want to increase the number of temples, increase the number of devotees. They do not want. Because they say, "These are a class of idle men. They cannot do anything, and they take to this religious life." That is the tendency. They are feeling like that. But if you show that you are actually doing something ideal, then they will appreciate. Make a small unit of community and show ideal life, not idle life. Ideal life. Then this mis... That... Now in Bombay, they have refused. Because they are under the impression that "They, these Europeans have come here under some sentiment, and what is the use?" They have taken some plea and rejected our... (break) ...is there. As we are making counterpropaganda against māyā, the māyā is also very strong. She will also make propaganda against you, very strong. So unless you become very sincere devotee, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), then it will not be possible to conquer over māyā. You'll be succumbed. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...taranti te, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. In India the, the brāhmaṇa class, they say, "Oh, I am born in brāhmaṇa family. Why shall I do this work?" You see. Therefore the whole society has gone to hell. In your country still, they accept any kind of work. It doesn't matter. And here, in India, if he happens to be a brāhmaṇa, he'll not take any kind of work. Means... Just like plowing. He'll not agree. Therefore so much land. The kṣatriya is thinking, "I am kṣatriya." The brāhmaṇa is thinking, "I am brāhmaṇa." And the land is lying fallow. There is no production. He will go to the office and fight with the pen as a kṣatriya. And instead of studying Vedas, he'll study the rules and regulations given by the office. But he'll not come to plow. Therefore this scarcity of food. He'll go to a mill to work as ordinary laborer. (Hindi) He'll not come. So much land we see lying unutilized. And they're crying for grain. Why? The same example. I was writing that in New York City, the whole city is full of dirty things, garbage, for want of cleaners, and you go to the Central Park, you'll find so many hippies are lying down idle.
Prabhupāda: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varṇāśrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brāhmaṇa. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras. What they will understand? Simply śūdras. Factories and this, for technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, "Now we have got everything." On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that śūdra's work, that's all. That does not mean, because he has got money, he has got all knowledge. But people accept, "Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge." That's all. And if you go, if you speak about God, "Oh, these men are beggars. They have made a profession." That's all. So if the society does not accept the proposition of Kṛṣṇa, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13), they will suffer because the God consciousness will be lost. It is already lost. It may not be that everyone is God conscious, but a section... Just like it may not be that everybody is a physician, but a physician must remain there, must be there so that when one is difficulty by disease, the physician may help him. Similarly, if in the society the brāhmaṇa class and above, post-graduate of brāhmaṇa class, Vaiṣṇava, is not there, then the whole society will spoil . They will indulge in this meat-eating and drinking wine and illicit sex. Then it will be hell, and it has already become. Whole world is full of hellish person. In a civilized country like America you cannot walk alone in the street at night. India is still honest. Any part of India, you can walk. Because the more sinful. Is it not? In New York, especially in Brooklyn or anywhere, you cannot walk alone. Is it not? Yes. Your life is at risk. That Central Park, nobody can walk there. I have heard from many women that they rape. The negroes, they capture and rape. Life is unsafe even in a civilized city like New York. So what is this civilization? Our (name withheld) was... (break) ...Park. (Name withheld) our. Yes, she said.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Yogeśvara: He says, "How is that that the only thing we've talked about since we came today has been eating meat? Is that the only thing that the Bhagavad-gītā teaches?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, because our proposal is that unless you become... Find out that verse, yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktāḥ. This is the beginning of theism. Theism means you must be free from all sinful activities. That is theism. If you remain sinful you cannot make any progress in theism. That is the point. (break)
Yogeśvara: Doesn't that make us rather exclusive, that we have some facility for spending all of our time meditating and purifying our lives? Doesn't that make us a rather exclusive group of people? If only those who are completely pure can engage in service, that means only people like us who have time to sit and meditate...
Prabhupāda: What meditation? The thing is that here it is stated, "Unless one is free from all sinful activities, he cannot be engaged in My service." And the pillars, according to Vedic, pillars of sinful activities... Just like four pillars. One is this meat-eating, the other is illicit sex, the other is gambling, and the other is intoxication. So unless we break these four pillars of sinful life there is no meaning of meditation or worshiping God. You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. So sinful life means destruction of spiritual life. So once you begin spiritual life, and other way you begin sinful life, then how it will be? It is counteracted. There is no progress.
Prabhupāda: That is their ignorance, or they do not understand, or they do not try to explain because the followers will not understand. That is our also point, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167), to become desireless. But after becoming desireless, what is it? Just like you become painless from the disease. That means painless means everything finished? Then let me enjoy this pain. After being painless means everything is finished. No. Painless means no material pain but spiritual life. That is painless. (French)
Karandhara: Their point is they come... Zen Buddhism or Buddhism goes as far as trying to obliterate the material ego.
Prabhupāda: No, it is clear as you said, as you said that unless he becomes desireless. That desire means material desire.
Karandhara: Yes. That's actually what they're speaking about when they say desire.
Prabhupāda: So they are not so advanced that there is spiritual desire. That they do not understand. But so far the material desirelessness, that is accepted by us also. (French) It is something like this. Just like a child without education at home is simply doing mischief. So the parents want to make him mischievousless. But if the parent does not know that he should be given better engagement, otherwise it cannot be mischievousless, that he does not know. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says there is something beyond material desire and spiritual desire.
Karandhara: No, he doesn't understand the definition when we say spiritual then. He's confusing spiritual with something like esoteric. Spiritual is the opposite of material. And beyond material desire, that means beyond gross and subtle desire, when we say spiritual we mean transcendental, the opposite of material.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be.
Guest: Whatever it is...
Prabhupāda: It is material. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). "Give up all these types of false religions." Mam ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That means come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ekam, anyone. So unless one becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's in trouble. (indistinct) And our difficulty is that when we want to convince a person on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he thinks that I am Hindu, I am Christian, I am Mohammedan. I am trying to proselytize, that is (indistinct).
Guest: No, it was not that I was really saying. Rather that what I have heard from others comes to the same thing as you were saying.
Prabhupāda: Others, if they try for the same thing, then it is alright. Because that type of religion, that system of religion, is first-class which teaches people to come to the platform of God consciousness, to love God, then that is first-class religious system. It doesn't matter what is the designation. (indistinct)
Guest: The process of change of consciousness which is actually taking place in you under many influences, I think.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: Under many influences.
Prabhupāda: And actually they are lovers of dog. And still, he's professing "I am religious." This is not cheating.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, it's cheating. Imposter.
Prabhupāda: Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Unless one becomes a devotee of God, there is no question of religion. It is all cheating. By opening hospital, schools,... There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years, the hospitals and schools are being opened, philanthropy. What is the result?
Bali Mardana: Atom bombs.
Prabhupāda: Atom bomb. Result is atom bomb.
Hṛdayānanda: You're the only one, Prabhupāda, who dares to criticize hospitals and schools. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Yes, so many people came to request me... Even Dr. Ghosh. Eh? You know.
Satsvarūpa: He wanted you to open a medical dispensary.
Prabhupāda: "No, no, we are not going to waste our time in that way." I frankly told him. We have no extra time to waste like that. What he thinks very big project, we say it is waste of time. (laughter)
Jayatīrtha: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. It is a completely revolutionary idea.
Prabhupāda: Not disturbed. So one has to become dhīra. Then he'll be satisfied. Then he'll be satisfied. Then... That is the prayojana-siddhi, to finish this business, material business, and completely prepare for going back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very strict. He therefore advised, niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. Bhagavad-bhajan, devotional service of the Lord means paraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya. Going to the other side of this material ocean. So one who is serious about going to the other side of this ocean, for him, two things are very dangerous. Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam atha yoṣitām ca hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣaṇato 'py asādhu (CC Madhya 11.8). It is dangerous, it is most heinous activities than drinking poison. What are these? Viṣayināṁ sandarśanam, to mix with the... Or... Mix very intimately with the materialistic person and to have association with woman with sense purpose. Yoṣitām. To see woman is not bad, but as soon as one sees woman with a sensual purpose, that is very condemned. That is condemned. So unless one becomes dhīra, he cannot do that. So we have to finish this business of material sensuous engagement and become dhīra. Then we are fit candidate for going back to home, back to Godhead.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That, that dhīra cannot be attained artificially. (?)
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Unless you find something better than the sex life, you cannot be dhīra. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's name is Madana-Mohana. Madana means Cupid. Cupid is enchanting everyone. Everyone is enchanted by Cupid. Madana-dahan(?). And Kṛṣṇa is Madana-Mohana, He enchants Cupid. And Rādhārāṇī is Madana-mohana-mohinī, (S)he enchants Kṛṣṇa. Madana-Mohana-mohinī.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Rāmeśvara: And also he is encouraging them to become Life Members, and sometimes through the mail they send their Life Membership fee. This is our Mail Order shipping room.
Prabhupāda: I was doing when I was Dr. Bose's manager. Any inquiry coming from outside, I must continue correspondence with him unless he becomes a customer.
Rāmeśvara: Unless he becomes a customer.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I was doing.
Rāmeśvara: There's one more room, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: This is where they ship all the mail orders.
Prabhupāda: Weighing.
Hṛdayānanda: That's for postage.
Rāmeśvara: We have our own postage machine. We don't have to go to a post office.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Rāmeśvara: It prints out stamps.
Brahmānanda: It is difficult to come to that understanding, that actually, those who are the leaders are not to be trusted.
Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation. Taxation by the government, and there will be no rain, there will be famine, no food, and they will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their family and go away, gacchanti giri-kananam, will go, enter into the hills and forest, giving up their hearth and home. This is Kali-yuga. And this is due to their godlessness. On account of this, then the democracy, means anyone, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, anyone who becomes powerful, he will capture the government post. So the śūdras, they are now powerful. Śūdras. Industry means śūdra. So they will capture the governmental power. Just like Communist.
Devotee (2): Even if we present a Kṛṣṇa conscious candidate, the people will still choose a rogue to lead them, even if we present a candidate who is Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Ambassador: Within each of these there is the esoteric.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is material. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). "Give up all this type of false religion." Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That means come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Ekam, only one. So unless one becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is in trouble of this material condition. And our difficulty is that when we want to convince another person about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he thinks that "I am Hindu, I am Christian, I am Mohammedan, so they are trying to proselytize me." That is the difficulty.
Ambassador: No, it was not that I was really saying. Rather that what I have heard from others comes to the same thing as you are saying.
Prabhupāda: Others, if they try for the same thing, then it is all right, because that type of religion or that system of religion is first-class which teaches for this thing, that "Come to platform of God consciousness and love God." Then that is first-class system of religion. It doesn't matter what is the designation. But where is that happening?
Ambassador: The process of change of consciousness which is actually taking place in the world under many influences, I think...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Spiritual platform means prasannātmā. That is the distinction. And the material platform means nobody is satisfied. A man, millionaires, he is also committing suicide.
Guest: But do you think that all men can stand on the spiritual platform?
Prabhupāda: All men can stand or not stand—that is a different question. The fact is this. Suppose if I say, "Unless you become a graduate, you cannot enter law college." Now this question does not arise that whether everyone will be graduate. But this is the condition. This is the condition. Anyone who fulfills this condition, he can be admitted.
Guest: Then what is the condition prescribed for standing on the spiritual platform?
Prabhupāda: This is the spiritual platform,
- brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
- na śocati na kāṅkṣati
- samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
- (BG 18.54)
This is spiritual. Unless you come to this platform, there is no question of samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu or samyavāda. Generally, they do not know it. They are talking of samyavāda. They do not know what is the platform of samyavāda. That is also further explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). Bhāgavata, śāstra, all Vedic literatures, they are perfect. So people do not know what is the aim of life. Therefore they have got different views. Actually they are missing what is the aim of life. There is a English proverb, "A man without aim and a ship without rudder," or something like that. So similarly, ask anybody what is the aim of life. He doesn't know, no clear idea.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are offering respects. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have to create divine because the world is full of devils.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have to be divine ourselves.
Prabhupāda: Unless you become divine, how you can convert others to divine? If you are devil, you will convert others to become devil, that's all. (break) ...most beautiful.
Nalinī-kānta:. Presided over by Aryama, the planet of trees.
Prabhupāda: Planet... not planet. Amongst the trees. So who will prepare nice foodstuff for the governor?
Guest (1): Yes, Prabhupāda Mahārāja, very nice prasāda.
Prabhupāda: Who is preparing?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've given the list to the chief cook.
Guest (1): My wife is there and then Pālikā, Devaśakti, your sister. Everybody is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it very nicely. Now it will be examined who can cook very nice. If they say, "Oh, it is very nice," then good certificate.
Guest (1): Prabhupāda, everybody is praising prasādam.
Prabhupāda: But that is their foolishness. We, people, Kṛṣṇa conscious people say, "Here is your ultimate goal of this science. Take it." That they will not take. That is foolishness. They will come to the same point. But when you offer him, he will not take. That is less intelligent. (break)
Paramahaṁsa: You were saying that inquisitiveness is the...
Prabhupāda: That is human life. That inquisitiveness cannot be found in cats and dogs. That is the difference between cats and dogs and human being. Human being, unless he becomes inquisitive for what is the ultimate source, he is not human being. All these people, 99.9 per cent people, they are not inquisitive. They are searching after some happiness, but they are not inquisitive what is the source of happiness. They are being baffled in the material world. They have, for happiness they have discovered this horseless carriage and so many things, but there is so much unhappiness also when the motor car is crashed between two and life is lost. They are not inquisitive that we have invented this machine for happiness, why this disaster? That intelligence is not. That is it. They are simply going on searching after, but when we say, "No, not in this way, come this way and you'll get happiness," They'll not. That is (inaudible).
Paramahaṁsa: But if a person becomes too much inquisitive, just like with the boy and the mṛdaṅga, due to his inquisitiveness he ruined the mṛdaṅga, and then he doesn't have any drum.
Prabhupāda: No. Our viewpoint is that in the material world, who has accepted this material body—anyone, but we specially take the human society—they require treatment, everyone. Everyone is mentally diseased, and therefore he is unhappy. Everyone. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād-guṇa (SB 5.18.12). Anyone who has no sense of God consciousness, he is diseased mentally. He requires treatment. The whole human society, especially at the present moment, they have given up God consciousness. They are not interested. That is their disease. And everyone requires treatment. So the whole Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the mass treatment of the materialistic persons who are mentally diseased. That is our proposition. It is... In India there was a case. A man committed murder, and he pleaded in the court that... His pleader, his lawyer, pleaded that he was mad at that time. We also accept unless one becomes mad, one cannot commit murder or suicide. So the civil surgeon was brought to give evidence whether this man is actually mad. The civil surgeon said that "So far my experience is concerned—I have treated so many persons—in my opinion everyone is mad. So if on account of madness one should be excused from the law, then it is Your Honor's discretion, but so far I have studied, more or less, everyone is mad." Similarly, our study is that unless one is mad, he cannot remain in this material world. So everyone is mentally diseased, and they are concocting their ideas, different ideas. And they are overlapping, my idea, your idea overlapping. Therefore there is clash, unhappiness, violence, individually, socially, familywise, nationwise. This is going on. Therefore everyone requires a treatment, psychiatrist's treatment. And the best treatment is to induce a person to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise, a person who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, or God conscious, he is basically a mad man and requires treatment. (pause) Ghostly haunted man... You have experienced ghostly haunted man?
Prabhupāda: They may say, they... Because we take them as rascals, why shall I take their words? We should consider them a rascals, that's all. (someone shouts nastily in background-Prabhupāda barks at them) (laughter) Another rascal. He is enjoying life. So the world is full of rascals. We must be very much pessimistic, not at all optimistic of this world. Unless you become pessimistic, you will not be able to go back to home. If you have little attraction for this world—"It is good"—then you have to remain here. Yes. Kṛṣṇa is so strict.
Paramahaṁsa: But Jesus said: "Love thy brother as thyself." So if we love our brother...
Prabhupāda: That we are loving. We are giving Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is loving, real loving. We are giving him eternal life, eternal bliss. Unless we love them, why we are taking so much trouble? The preacher must love the people. Otherwise why he is taking? He can do it for himself at home. Why he is taking so much trouble? Why in eighty years old I have come here if I do not love? So who can love better than a preacher? He loves even the animals. Therefore they are preaching, "Don't take meat." Do they love the animals, rascals? They are eating, and they love their country, that's all. Nobody loves. It is simply sense gratification. If somebody loves, he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. All rascals. They are after their own sense gratification, and they will put a signboard, "I love everyone." This is their business. And fools are accepting, "Oh, this man is very philanthropic." He does not love any man. He loves only senses. That's all. The servant of the senses, that's all.
Everyone is working because he is getting money. Where is the love? The minister, the prime minister, everyone, if they say, "No money, no salary," nobody will go. He takes the opportunity of taking money by bribe, by this way. Therefore they are: "I love your country. Elect me as president." That's all. What this president has done, Nixon? He has stolen so many things. So what is his love for the country?
Prabhupāda: There is no purport of Devahūti?
Nitāi: "Here the word asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt is significant. Asat means 'impermanent,' 'temporary,' and indriya means 'senses.' Thus asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt means 'from being agitated by the temporarily manifest senses of the material body.' We are evolving through different statuses of material bodily existence sometimes in a human body, sometimes in an animal body—and therefore the engagements of our material senses are also changing. Anything which changes is called temporary, or asat. We should know that beyond these temporary senses are our permanent senses, which are now covered by the material body. The permanent senses, being contaminated by matter, are not acting properly. Devotional service, therefore, involves freeing the senses from this contamination. When the contamination is completely removed and the senses act in the purity of unalloyed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we have reached the sad-indriya, or eternal sense activities. The eternal sensual activities are called devotional service, whereas temporary sensual activities are called sense gratification. Unless one becomes tired of material sense gratification, there is no opportunity to hear transcendental messages from a person like Kapila. Devahūti expressed that she was tired. Now that her husband had left home, she wanted to get relief by hearing the instructions of Lord Kapila."
Prabhupāda: So this full book is the answer and question between mother and son. So, although she is mother, she has given birth to the child, but she has become now dependent on this child for good instruction. This is ideal society.
Mrs. Wax: Thank you for answering my questions.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them prasādam. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: To become faithful, surrender. That is. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "You rascal, surrender. You are not faithful; therefore you are condemned. You surrender first. Then next thing." So unless he becomes a surrendered soul, there is no hope. There is no hope. He will never understand.
Yadubara: What is the best way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to instill a little faith? How do we instill some faith in these people?
Prabhupāda: Little faith... Therefore you associate. Just like we are inviting this morning lecture. Coming, coming, coming, coming-faith will come.
Yadubara: They will not come.
Prabhupāda: They will not come. Then he is condemned. Let them remain animals. If you don't go to school, there is no question of education. Where is the question of education? One must go to the school with faith that "I will be educated." That is required.
Yadubara: But if they take some prasādam, that will help them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your mercy, that you are... He is faithless rascal. "All right, you take prasādam. That will help you." Yes.
Prabhupāda: No. That cannot be. You are one cheated and he is one cheater. How they can be one? (laughter)
Dhanañjaya: (break) ...isn't self-sufficiency...
Prabhupāda: Self-suff... There is no self-sufficiency. Self-insufficiency. Always remember that. Unless you become perfect in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no self-sufficiency. All self-insufficiency. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) So you give me a description, what he is doing. (break) ...thinking, "I am independent," but he is kicked by his mind every moment. This is his independence—"Go there. Come here. Do this. Do that." The mind is dictating, and he is thinking, "I am independent." This is the position of conditioned soul. Therefore he is called conditioned. He is conditioned by the mind, and he is thinking "independent." Mūḍha. Therefore mūḍha. Tri-guṇamayair bhāvaiḥ mohitaḥ. He is illusioned by the three modes of material nature, and he does not know Kṛṣṇa, and he is thinking "independent."
Trivikrama: The mind is cheating us.
Prabhupāda: Certainly he'll cheat. If you cannot control, it will cheat. Mind is the friend, and mind is the enemy. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, then mind is friend. And if you do not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, mind is enemy. māyā is also. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then she is Rādhārāṇī. And if he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, she is Durga.
Dhanañjaya: So all these cheaters are māyā's agents.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know what is knowledge. The knowledge means sex life. That is their knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means how to enjoy sex life, how to take shelter of abortion, child-killing, and then contraceptive method—whole thing on the basis of sex life. That's all. They do not know except these things. They know there is botheration after sex life, but they cannot give it up. Therefore all these arrangements: take contraceptive, kill child, and what... That means the whole thing is based on sex life. That's all. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Is that pleasure? They think it is pleasure to unite the urinals. (laughter) And this is pleasure, a standard of pleasure most third class, fourth class. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ tuccham: very abominable. Tuccham, the śāstra says, "most abominable." And they take it pleasure, and they make arrangement for this. When the dog enjoys sex life... Therefore they are allowed to do it on the street. People can see it. Is that very nice scene? The same thing is done by the human being, and they are taking: "This is all, everything." This is basic principle of their happiness. That's all. Mohinī, mohinī. This is captivation. And nature has made the woman's face so attractive, beautiful, their breast, their hips, attractive, their sound, talking, singing, all very attractive, walking, and now they are dressing naked. They are showing simply the vagina, all other parts of the body clothed. This is going on. Whole thing is based on sex life, and that is tuccham, most abominable. Prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śritāḥ. It will take three hundred times births to understand that this sex life is abominable. Therefore it is bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Not that immediately, simply by hearing our Bhagavad-gita lecture, they will give it up. It will take many, many births to understand. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante. In the Vedic system, sex life is allowed only for begetting children. Therefore they are... Restriction. Allowed, but with great restriction under religious rules and regulation and so many things, garbhādāna. Then the first principle is, even it is taken for begetting child, it is not secret.
Garbhādāna-saṁskāra. There should be a function, all the brāhmaṇas and relatives should come, and there will be ceremony, and everyone will know that "This man is going to now sex, have sex for begetting children." This is ceremony, not secretly like cats and dogs. Cats and dogs also, they do not do secretly. A human being do it secretly and do not want the botheration. Therefore their scientific advancement means how to kill the child, how to make abortion, how to take contraceptive pills, how to distribute them, how allow the children, "Yes, you go on, but take these pills so that you may not be bothered." Yes. Why not stop it, botheration? That you cannot, because animals. Because animal civilization, they cannot do it. Kaṇḍutive manivasi viṣaheta dhīraḥ. Why don't you teach them to become dhīraḥ, sober—"Let me tolerate this itching sensation"—brahmacārī? That teaching is not good. You do it repeatedly, suffer, and suffer consequences. And to stop it they suffer in so many ways, suffering, suffering. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Sex life, illicit or legal, the after-effect is suffering. Even it is not illicit—it is legal—then to take care of the wife or the children, for their education, for their upliftment and so on, so on, so on—suffering. And if it is illicit, then these sufferings: you commit sinful activities, kill the child, contraceptive, with the abortion, go to the doctor, pay, and so on, so on. So where is no suffering? Either legal or illicit, you have to suffer. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. These rascals, once they have done, "That's all right. You have got one child. Just take of." "No, again, again." Once you have committed sinful activities, killing the child in the womb, "All right, stop it now." "No, again." Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana. He's never satisfied. He knows that there is suffering behind this. Still, he'll not stop it. Therefore a sober man... A man should be educated to become sober, that "Let me tolerate this itching, that's all. I save so much trouble." This is knowledge. To become rascal and more rascal and more rascal and suffer, is that civilization? Simply to make the people rascal and suffer and commit suicide? Just tell them that he has created this civilization that suffer and become rascal. That's all. Unless you become rascal, how you will suffer? So keep them rascal and suffer. This is nature's arrangement, that "You living entity, you have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. All right, come under my control. Be rascal, remain rascal and suffer." Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā (BG 7.14). Why she is doing that? "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you will go on suffering like this." This is the nature's way. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). But the rascal... Because he is rascal, he does not know that "I am under the full control of prakṛti, material nature, and her business is to keep me rascal and suffer." And they are advanced in education.
Prabhupāda: Because you have become Vaiṣṇava, that is the...
Dr. Patel: Not... Even before that.
Prabhupāda: Unless one becomes Vaiṣṇava...
Dr. Patel: A real scientist finds God's working in every cell, every atom, every molecule.
Prabhupāda: No, no, our point is unless one has become Vaiṣṇava, he remains a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is your saying.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement of Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So anyone who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is a fool, rascal. That' s all. This is the conclusion. We are fool, undoubtedly, but we take the words of Kṛṣṇa. He is not fool.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) No, but He says, ye tu sarvāṇī karmāṇi mayi sannyasya mat-parāḥ.
Prabhupāda: The mat-parāḥ, this is mat-parāḥ. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept it. That is mat-parāḥ. Mat-parāḥ means whatever Kṛṣṇa says, accept it. That's all. That is mat-parāḥ. And if I say, "I don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, whether He was existing," that is not mat-parāḥ.
Dr. Patel: That is different.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know how to remain in Brahman. No, they do not know; therefore we say rascal. You realize that you are Brahman; now your next business is to stay in Brahman. That they do not know.
Dr. Patel: Behave as Brahman. They don't behave.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Either behave or stay, the same thing. Unless you become fire, you cannot stay in fire.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupāda: So these people, they realize arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). By severe austerity and penances they rise to the Brahman platform, but from there they fall down. Why? Adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ. Because brahmam platform means to be engaged in devotional service. Brahma bhūyāya kalpate. Mām ca yo'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena (BG 14.26). If you want to stay on the Brahmam platform, then you must render service to Kṛṣṇa. And if you simply realize that "I am Brahman," then you'll be misguided by māyā: "Oh, you are the Supreme Lord. You are Bhagavān. What is the use of worshiping another Bhagavān? You are Bhagavān." māyā says it in a different way. māyā says that you are a rascal, but think that you are Bhagavān.
Dr. Patel: This ātmarāma supposed to be tolerant.
Prabhupāda: So the rascals, under the dictation of māyā, they are thinking "I am God," that's all. They have no intelligence even, that "How I can be God?"
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. How śāstra has picked up the example, just see. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate... (SB 5.5.1). What is that?
Harikeśa: Viḍ-bhujāṁ ye.
Prabhupāda: Viḍ-bhujāṁ ye. This is not civilization. This is civilization, tapasya: no meat-eating, no this, no this, that, and become perfect, ideal brāhmaṇa life, satya śama dama śuci jñāna vijñāna. This is civilization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Unless you become civilized like this, there is no opportunity of brahma-jijñāsā. And so long you do not inquire about Brahman, that you remain, that pigs and hogs and asses. If human civilization is wasted to cultivate the pig civilization, naturally, "All right, you come here. Become a pig now. Take this body." Kṛṣṇa will say, "Nature, prakṛti, he got this chance to become human being, but has misused. Kindly give him a body of pig."
Prabhupāda: That means the little children's policy. Children, just like imagining so many things, "I shall do that. I shall do." The potter's imagination. You know that? Potter's imagination? You do not know the story? One potter is selling earthen pots, and he is saying that "Now, these two paisā, it has cost me one paisā. I shall make one paisā profit. Then I can make such profit. I shall invest again. I shall make another profit, another profit. In this way I shall become millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife shall be very obedient. And if (s)he does not become obedient, I shall give him a kick like this." And he, what was.... One pot was there. He kicked that pot and broke. (laughter) It broke. "Oh, again I am poor man." So this is going on, imagination. Imagination.... "I shall become so great that I shall kick Kṛṣṇa's law," and whatever pot he had-broken. That's all. Rascals, simply rascals. If anyone thinks like that, that "I shall surpass the laws of nature," then he's madman. He's madman. So what is the use of dealing with madmen? And as soon as you challenge them that "Show us that you have surpassed the laws of nature," "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do." That's all. This is their reply. So it is better to avoid such men. But if you peacefully you can introduce, "All right, you will do. You are wonderful men, so kindly if you read some pages of this, it is not very costly. You can keep. At leisure hour you can read," in this way, imploring, then they will be benefited. That much we can do to any rascal. He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt caitanya-candra-caraṇe: "Oh, you are so nice. Therefore I am flattering you. I humbly obeisance. Kindly hear one thing. Keep some books. It is not very costly." Bas. This much you can do. And let them become puffed up by their false notions. But if they keep some books, sometimes they will read or their sons will read. That's all. Therefore I am stressing so much on books, that if the puffed-up rascals take some book and sometimes, if they read, he'll be benefited, perfectly benefited. So distribute these books anywhere possible. It doesn't matter where it is. The same process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya. The books will sell, that "You rascal number one, you set aside whatever learned. Read this." He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya: "You are very learned, but forget what you have learned, all rascaldom. Try to read this book." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate: "A rascal fool is very beautifully dressed, very nice sitting. But his rascaldom will be disclosed as soon as he will speak." So these rascals, as soon as they speak, "We shall surpass the laws of nature," then we can understand what kind of rascals. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ. By their, these words we can take, "Oh, rascaldom," at once. "I shall break the wall. I shall push the mountain with my head." It is like that. If somebody is thinking that "I shall push the Himalayan mountains by knocking with my head," then we can understand. So where it is? A rascal, the innocent, he is also rascal. But innocent is eager to become intelligent, so there we shall deal. And the stubborn atheists, they are dviṣat. They cannot be corrected immediately, unless they become ruined. (break) ...their standard of life. Try for that. Concentrate in your country. There is no need of going.... I was written, asking you that, that "If it is very hard job, don't try for that, useless waste of time." Incorrigible. So what is the use of going to a person...?
Prabhupāda: We are jumping to the village.
Indian: Well village is a little bit pure life you know, but in the cities of course people get involved too much in...
Prabhupāda: Pure life, village—doesn't matter village or city. If you become devotee, then pure life. It is not that because one is living in city, therefore he's polluted, one is living in village, no. Unless one becomes devotee, there is no question of becoming good.
Indian man (1): Prabhupāda, there's a very important question in my mind all the time. How a Godbrother should treat the Godbrother with great (indistinct) to produce more love of Godhead and to (indistinct) in them?
Prabhupāda: You show example. If other Godbrother is not treating you well, you treat him well. Then it will be right. Why you should deviate, that "This Godbrother is not treating me well, so I shall do also"? Āpani ācari' prabhu jīvera. You treat well. You show the example how to treat his Godbrother. (break) ...Mahāprabhu's teaching,
- tṛṇād api sunīcena
- taror api sahiṣṇunā
- amāninā mānadena
- kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ
- (CC Adi 17.31)
So who is treating me good or bad, I don't want to bother about it. Let me become humbler than the grass, tolerant than the tree, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Nobody can count unless he learns it from the teacher.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, but...
Prabhupāda: So therefore for knowledge, you have to go to a proficient man or person, that is knowledge. Why do you go to a school and college? Be in knowledge at home. If you want to steal even, you have to learn it from a professional thief, how to cheat, how to steal. That is also another kind of knowledge. You cannot steal unless you become expert by learning how to steal from an expert thief. So knowledge means you have to receive it from higher authority. That is knowledge.
Kulādri: What if one has material desire? How does he gain the desire for spiritual knowledge?
Prabhupāda: That means you are cats and dogs. The dog has no inquisitiveness. Therefore you are no better than the dog. The dog never comes to a spiritual master, "Give me some knowledge." Therefore you are as good as the dog. That is your qualification.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So all different aspects of material knowledge...
Prabhupāda: You have to learn from a superior person.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brāhmaṇa he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ śudhyanti (SB 2.4.18). The purificatory process... Just like these Europeans, Americans, they are being recognized as brāhmaṇas because they are pure devotees. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says kṛṣṇa-bhajane nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra (CC Antya 4.67). Kṛṣṇa-bhajane, if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no such discrimination, even if you make that, because as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become the best brāhmaṇa. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He immediately becomes on the brahmam platform. And brāhmaṇa means one who knows brahma. Brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa. So every devotee, if he's purely engaged in devotional service, he's more than brāhmaṇa. And so-called brāhmaṇa, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is not recognized. Avaiṣṇavo gurur na syād vaiṣṇavaḥ śva-paco guruḥ. If a dog-eater, caṇḍāla, he has become a Vaiṣṇava, he can be guru. But a brāhmaṇa, ṣaṭ-karma-nipuṇo vipro mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ, avaiṣṇavo gurur na syāt. If he's expert, Vedic chanting and everything, mantra-tantra-viśārada, but if he's not a Vaiṣṇava, he cannot become guru. So according to our Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... That is actually according to Vedic injunction. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become more than a brāhmaṇa. Try to understand Kṛṣṇa, and then your life is successful. And Kṛṣṇa is being distributed by Lord Kṛṣṇa. Not only He's giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema, kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ (CC Madhya 19.53). Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so kind, merciful, He's not only giving Kṛṣṇa, He's giving kṛṣṇa-prema, which is very, very rare. (converses in Hindi with Indians for some time)
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we say practically. What is the use of "ism," manufactured by imperfect senses. We have got defects. Our..., we commit mistake. Who is the person who does not commit mistake? None. We accept this body, which I am not, this is called pramada. Pramada vipralipsa,(?) without any perfect knowledge you want to teach. That is cheating. Vipralipsa. And karnapada(?), our senses are imperfect. So how you can give perfect knowledge with all this imperfection? Unless you become perfect, you cannot give perfect knowledge. So any knowledge given by any imperfect person, we reject immediately, useless waste of time. And actually that is the fact. If you are blind, you cannot see. You say, "Here is the elephant, a big stambha, pillar," by seeing his leg, by touching his leg. But elephant is just like a pillar? That is our speculation. Andha-kūpa, what is called? Kūpa-maṇḍūka. A frog in the well is trying to study Atlantic Ocean.
Devotee: Kūpa-maṇḍūka.
Prabhupāda: Kūpa-maṇḍūka. What you know about the Atlantic Ocean who's living within three feet of land, water? Kūpa-maṇḍūka.
Interviewer (?): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Upastha means...
Interviewer (?): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Samāsa. So we are imperfect, just like they are going to study the planets. What they will study from here? This kind of knowledge has no value, speculation.
Prabhupāda: So anyone's question about this, this misdirected civilization? In India there was no such misguided civilization. Now they have learned how to misguide people, and they have taken this ideal, that "Unless we become like the Europeans and Americans our progress is checked." This is going on. Actually there is no progress. We are condemned. Why they should waste so much energy not for progress. Before British period, India, there were cities, but not like this because their energy was utilized. Cities were constructed especially in pilgrimages, like Mathurā. Mathurā is very old city, but that is a pilgrimage. Dvārakā, that is also very old city. First of all there was no need of big, big cities because there was no industry. They did not know what is industry. And there were ample food-food grains, milk, vegetables. Those who were eating meat, they were eating small, nonimportant animals like goats, hogs, and they never touched cows. Cows are very important animals. Even the stool, urine, is important. In the agricultural field the cows, passing stool, they will also benefit. Natural fertilizing.
Dr. Patel: And From cows' dung we have produced penicillin in Calcutta (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: That may be, but why penicillin is required?
Dr. Patel: No, but that means it had some value right from beginning. Our forefathers must have known it. Why they did not...
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: He has given a commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā. In the beginning he says nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ, "Nārāyaṇa is transcendental."
Dr. Patel: But these fellows are misinterpreting later on.
Prabhupāda: The whole world is full of demons. And they are demons. Who declare himself, "I am God," he's a demon.
Dr. Patel: Only one who has actually realized Para-brahman and the, become the real (indistinct) of Brahman, he has got a right to say Brahma... Unless he becomes brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20).
- brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
- na śocati na kāṅkṣati
- samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
- (BG 18.54)
Then he becomes brahma-bhūta. Otherwise he cannot become. Brahma-bhūta is the first stage. This they consider the final. I mean, that is my understanding. I don't know, I may be right or wrong. But I want to be corrected by you.
Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūta... Jīva-bhūta, everyone is thinking, "I am this body." That is jīva-bhūta. And when understands that "I'm not body, I'm within the body," that is brahma-bhūta.
Dr. Patel: That is ādya. Perpetually Brahman...
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. What he will do, more payment? (?) Then he will kill. This sex life in this material world is so strong, even in the heavenly planets. Big, big ṛṣis. Sex life with animals also there is... Sex life is so strong. Man cohabiting with animal. It makes blind. Vyāsadeva made one of her (his) students pregnant, what to speak of ourselves. Vyāsadeva was born, Satyavatī. She was low class. Although she was born by a king, but her mother was a low-class fisherwoman. And the fisherman raised her as daughter. And Parāśara Muni became attracted. And Vyāsadeva was born. Sex affairs, just see, in the highest circle. Bṛhaspati, the spiritual master of the devatās, he became so much mad for his brother's wife who was pregnant, and forcibly they had sex. Just see. These are examples. Brahmā became attracted with his daughter. Lord Śiva became attracted with the beauty of Mohinī-mūrti, even in the presence of his wife. So this sex life can be controlled only by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise there is no... The Bhāgavata has discussed all this because in this material world there is no escape unless we become Kṛṣṇa conscious, from the sex impulse. It is not possible. Yad-avadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa... When one is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he'll reject all this nonsense: "What is this?" Bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭhu. He'll spite (spit): "Eh! Get out. Is that enjoyment?" It is possible for a Kṛṣṇa conscious... No other can do it. And that is the bondage. He'll have to work hard for maintaining sex issues. And so long you are bound up by the karmas, you have to accept another body and then continue. Who knows this how we are bound up and conditioned? If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: "What nonsense this man is... 'By sex life one becomes conditioned.' " They cannot understand. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (japa) This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyāsīs. And those sannyāsīs who have fallen, you get them married, live like a... No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that "We shall not fall down again," that is also not believable. What is the use? Better go and speak philosophy in your gṛhastha dress, not this dress, but you have nice coat, pants, gentleman. Who says no? I never said.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Why India's such big culture should be lost for the matter of these rascal leaders? This should be stopped. As Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma (BG 4.13). There must be ideal brāhmaṇa, ideal kṣatriya, ideal vaiśya, as Kṛṣṇa says. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is all-inclusive. Economic question? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Grow food. Practical. Just like when I was going to the pandals, millions of clerks were coming—"Education. Educated." And who is growing food? And they have to be provided in these pigeon holes and depend on ration. Is that civilization? And throngs of people are coming, just like machine, ants. Ants are coming. I saw like that. And go to the village side—all vacant land. Nobody's interested to produce food. Everyone is interested to live within the city, in these pigeonholes, and go to the cinema and go to the brothel, go to the club and learn how to drink, how to become gentleman. Is that civilization? Human life's aim is lost. You do not know why you are going to the office, why you are eating, why you are... Keeping them all pet animal's mentality, doggish mentality. We have explained. University education means doggish mentality. Unless he becomes a dog, there is no food. No, the dog goes...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wagging it's tail.
Prabhupāda: "Give me some food." "Hut hut hut!" Then another animal.(?) And as soon as you give some food, oh, so many—"ka,ka,ka,ka,ka,ka,ka." For five hundred posts, 300,000 applications. Did you see that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Coming in Churchgate.
Prabhupāda: No, there was a newspaper publication. For some post there is five hundred posts vacant.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Śva-viḍ-varāha. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as dogs, camels, asses and hogs. Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. (break) The leader of hogs, dogs, camels and asses. Our civilization is brahminical, brāhmaṇa. That is wanted.
Mr. Koshi: Is that good or bad?
Prabhupāda: That is good. Unless you become brāhmaṇa, real brāhmaṇa, śama, dama, titikṣā, how you will understand? We are not for the hogs, dogs, cats. Therefore it is sometimes said that without becoming brāhmaṇa, nobody should try to understand Vedas. What he will understand? Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Dhīmahi. This word is used because it is meant for the brāhmaṇas. Oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ... dhīmahi. Dhīmahi. Dhīmahi is gāyatrī-mantra. It is chanted by the brāhmaṇas. That word is used in Bhāgavatam also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I wanted to suggest that if he has some further questions, we could try to answer them, and then if there is still some unanswered...
Prabhupāda: No. He has no answer on this spiritual matter. He'll ask me some political... We have no function in politics.
Mr. Koshi: No, there was a few other questions regarding the Society.
Prabhupāda: The fundamental principle is that we are teaching about the owner of the body.
Mr. Koshi: Yeah, but what we are in the outside world... I am not in the Society. What I see outside is totally... You see, when I see a group of young people like these boys here dancing in the street, it is something jarring to my eyes. I am not used to it. What is the necessity for the chant and the...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ bhavadbhir loka-maṅgalam, kṛṣṇa-sampraśno yenātmā suprasīdati (SB 1.2.5). Happiness is there. Unless you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no question of... This is a false happiness, that "If I get money, I'll be happy." That is false. So many men, they have got money. We see practically. The whole European civilization, American civilization, is based on this fundamental idea that "Let us have money and we shall be happy." And nobody is happy. Nobody is happy, a single man. Very big, big buildings, very nice car, very nice road, but there is no question of happiness. Always restlessness. Is it not? They are practically proved. And becoming implicated, karma-bandha, loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9), one after another, one after another. Because he is not independent, he is under karma-bandhana. If you touch fire, it must burn you. You cannot avoid it. That is not possible. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sar... (BG 3.27), ahaṅkāra-vimūḍha. Are you independent? Suppose if you touch fire, are you independent that your finger will not burn? It must burn. So you'll search after so much so-called happiness—they're simply burning their finger, that's all. Karma-bandhanaḥ. Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). So I'm insisting you about this distribution of the book. That is a service. If you can do some pushing on these books some way or other, you get material profit; at the same time, it is service.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Not just a business.
Prabhupāda: I wish...
Kulādri: You wish? Then come at once. I think that will make Him very happy.
Prabhupāda: But unless I become little strong, how can I go?
Kulādri: Hm. So we've also brought some sweets and ice cream, but just now is not so good for you to take it. The ice cream is not so good for you to take just now, so shall we keep it for you?
Prabhupāda: Distribute.
Kulādri: You'll take one little taste, Śrīla Prabhupāda? You'll take one little taste? (Prabhupāda takes taste)
Prabhupāda: First class.
Kulādri: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So make a list and keep with you.
Kulādri: Inventory. And the checks?
Prabhupāda: Check out. (pause) We want kīrtana. (soft kīrtana starts) (break)
| Page Title: | Unless one becomes... (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 21 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=45, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 45 |