Prabhupāda: So He accepted spiritual... Not spiritual master, but a sannyāsa-guru. That is also master, but he's not spiritual master. But he's also considered as sannyāsa-guru, spiritual master who offers him sannyāsa. Just like myself, I took initiation from my Guru Maharaja, but I took sannyāsa from a Godbrother who is a sannyāsī. So my original guru is that spiritual master who initiated me, but he's also a śikṣā guru. Like that. Teacher. Then His renunciation of householder. He became sannyāsa. Now when He was, after taking sannyāsa, when He was going towards Vṛndāvana, He became always almost mad. So Nityānanda, He was with Him. When He saw that Lord Caitanya is in ecstasy, He misled Him just to... His plan was that "I shall take Lord Caitanya to the house of Advaita, and then I shall call His mother to see Him for the last time. If Caitanya goes away from this very point His mother will not be able to see Him." So out of sympathy He said, "Well, Śrīpāda Caitanya, this is not, this side is not Vṛndāvana. You go..." He just misdirected Him. So... And He sent one man to Advaita to receive Him that "He has taken sannyāsī, just try to make arrangement to receive Him. Then we shall meet." So when He came near the house of Advaita He saw that Advaita was waiting. So then He, I mean to say, came to His sense. "Oh, I am misled? I have come to Advaita's house? How is that Nityānanda? You showed Me this way Vṛndāvana." Then He said, "Oh, wherever You stay, that is Vṛndāvana." Now Advaita says, "All right, please come to my house." So he received Him and took Him there and sent news to His mother that "Your son has now taken sannyāsa. Now if you want to see Him for the last time please come and see." So in this way at Advaita's house He remained for some time. Say about a fortnight. And during that time, in the beginning, His mother came and His mother became so much sorry. That scene you have to describe very nicely. Mother seeing that her son has taken sannyāsa, no more He'll come to house. So (s)he was crying. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu fell on his(her) feet and begged, "My dear mother, yes. This body belongs to you. This body should have been engaged for your service. Unfortunately I've done a mistake. I have already taken sannyāsa. Please excuse Me." In this way. That scene described in the Dilip Kumar's house, that Caitanya is consulting mother, that is a false scene. The actual scene is that after accepting His sannyāsa, His mother came to see Him at Advaita's house. That is the...
Try to make (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Now, this picture... This is Viṣvarūpa. It was shown to Arjuna. Now, Arjuna, before understanding Bhagavad-gītā, was a fighter, warrior. And after understanding Bhagavad-gītā, he remained a fighter. So we don't want to change the position. Just like you are a respectable professor, teacher. We don't say that you change your position. We have come to convince you about our philosophy. That's all. So just like the same example: Arjuna, he was denying to fight, "Kṛṣṇa, I do not like to kill my relatives. I don't want this kingdom." But he was taught Bhagavad-gītā. And at the end, when Kṛṣṇa inquired, "What is your decision now?" he said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73): "Yes, I shall act accordingly, as You say." That means his consciousness was changed. He remained a fighter. He was a fighter, he remained a fighter, but he changed his consciousness. We want that. We don't want to disturb the present condition of the society. No. But we try to make them understand that "There is a great necessity of you to understand this consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is our goal.
Prof. Kotovsky: But at the same time, the final goal of any consciousness is to change society...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...to make a better society. That...
Prabhupāda: That is automatically...
Prof. Kotovsky: I am not very so happy to hear that your ultimate goal is not to disturb society as such because in modern society there are many things to be changed...
Prabhupāda: That...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...through some consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Now, who is not drinking water? The taste of water is Kṛṣṇa, so who has not seen Kṛṣṇa? They say, "Can you show me God?" If you don't see God, then who will show you? Here is God. You are drinking water. Here is God, sunshine. Those who cannot see Kṛṣṇa is God... Because to see Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality God, it requires many, many thousands of years tapasya to understand Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). After many, many births, one can understand Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not so easy. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Out of many thousands of men, one may be interested how to make this life perfect. And those who actually attain perfection, out of many thousands of them, one can understand Kṛṣṇa. So to understand Kṛṣṇa is not easy job, easy job. So one who has understood "Here is Kṛṣṇa with Rādhārāṇī; let me serve," that position is very exalted position. That is not ordinary position. But one who is unfortunate not to come to that position to understand Kṛṣṇa, for them Kṛṣṇa is giving the prescription you see here. You drink water, the taste, now just think, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." In this way, if you think of Kṛṣṇa in your daily activities, then one day you will be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Actually, Kṛṣṇa is everything because whatever... This table is also Kṛṣṇa because it is a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ mano khaṁ buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4). What is the ingredient of this table? Earth, water, air, fire. Kṛṣṇa says, "That is My manifestation of My energy." Just like if the sun-god says, "I am everything of this matter," it is a fact, because through the sunshine everything is coming out. As soon as there is no sunshine, no more trees, no more foliage. Why? It is due to sunshine all these trees are existing. So if I say everything is sunshine, what is the wrong there? Because it is the sun's energy which is maintaining this material world. Similarly, it is Kṛṣṇa's energy that is manifesting everything. So if I say this is Kṛṣṇa, this is a fact. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Although everything is resting in Me, still I am not there." Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). The Māyāvādī philosopher says that "If Kṛṣṇa is here, then why shall I worship Kṛṣṇa in the temple?" That is his rascaldom. If Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, why He is not in the temple? But they will be minus, make minus this: "Kṛṣṇa is not in the temple, Kṛṣṇa is only somewhere else, that's all." That is the... Kṛṣṇa says that "I am in the temple, not anywhere else, although everything I am." So these things the foolish rascal people do no understand. Try to make them understand and go on preaching. The sannyāsīs are meant for preaching and the GBC's are meant for managing. In this way do it. Now you give me relief—I go on writing books, that's all. So Viṣṇujana Mahārāja, your preaching is going on nice?
Prabhupāda: Complete surrender.
Nara-Nārāyaṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. But they do not follow and still they say they are Christians. They do not follow. Christ is all right. According to the time, according to the country, according to the atmosphere, he's all right, but the followers, they reject.
Devotee (1): The followers try to make everyone fear God. Their whole aim is to make everyone so much afraid. They always try to instill fear in everyone they speak to. "You are going to hell."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the principle of eternal hell that is used to make people surrender, fear of eternal hell.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Fear of God.
Prabhupāda: According to time... Deśa-kāla-pātra. That kind of forceful, does not act very nicely. One should know the science, but the class of men to whom Jesus Christ said, they are not very much advanced. Under the circumstances, the fearfulness of hell is quite appropriate for them. Actually, one who does not go back to home, back to Godhead, he is put into the hellish condition of life. That is fearfulness, but we are so blunt that we do not take care. It is fearful. Just like Prahlāda Maharaja said that "Nṛsiṁha-deva, I am not afraid of your this fierce feature of Narasiṁha, but I am very much afraid of this materialistic way of life." Saṁsāra. Saṁsāra means this material world. So, it is actually very fearful. The whole atmosphere is fearful. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ (SB 10.14.58). To make adjustment, you have to accept something fearful. Just like this fight, "In future there may be some adjustment so that people may live peacefully. Therefore, we have to fight." This is also, the method is itself fearful. To gain a position where there will be no fear, we have to accept a fearful method. So, in the material world whatever we think, they are not very happy proposition, that's everything is fear. Karma-kāṇḍīya, they have to undergo so many hardship, then they get something profit. People are working so hard to get some profit. In the material world everything is fearful, hard-working. So, in the Bible it is said that hell or...?
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: You first of all be convinced and then try to convince others. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is that you can do welfare for others when your life is success.
- bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
Janma sārthaka kari. First make your life perfect, and then try to make others, preach. (break)
Bob: The devotees have said to me that without consciousness of Kṛṣṇa all the time, you cannot be happy. Without consciousness of Kṛṣṇa you cannot be happy. But at times I feel happy.
Prabhupāda: At times, not always.
Bob: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But if you be Kṛṣṇa conscious you'll feel always happy.
Bob: Oh. (laughter) They had implied that you cannot feel happy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: That's fact. Just like if you are an animal of this land and if you are thrown into the water, you cannot be happy in the water in any condition. When you're again taken up to the land, then you'll be happy. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot be happy without being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Now we are thrown. The same example. The machine part and parcel without the machine has no value. But when it is put again into the machine it has value. Similarly, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa; we must join Kṛṣṇa. So you can join immediately with Kṛṣṇa by your consciousness. Simply thinking that "I am Kṛṣṇa's, Kṛṣṇa's mine." That's all.
Prabhupāda: So the Indians who are outside India, they have got a special duty. So far our economic condition is concerned, as I explained yesterday, that one is destined to certain material comforts and discomforts, according to his body—already he has got. So either you stay in India or you stay in America, the bodily comforts or sense gratification, that will be achieved either in India or America. What you are destined to achieve, you will have it because as soon as your body is manufactured, your standard of comfort and discomfort is also manufactured. In Bengal there is a proverb that yethā deoyā bhange, kapāla yābe saṅge(?): "Wherever you go, your fortune will go with you." Fortune and misfortune, that will also go with you. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said one thing, that "Any Indian, any man who has taken birth on the soil of Bhāratavarṣa, India, he has got a special duty. And that duty is to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness."
- bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
- janma sārthaka kari kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
To do good to others, para-upakāra. So those Indians who are here, it is all right you are earning for some economic development, but at the same time, you try to make your life perfect by Kṛṣṇa consciousness and spread it to the foreigners as far as possible. That's your duty, not that, that you are getting decent salary than India, and enjoy life and forget your culture. That is suicidal. You have got a culture... So this culture is Vedic culture and Vedic culture means Kṛṣṇa conscious. As it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15).
Prabhupāda: How they can produce thousands of animals?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're producing animals in the laboratories, not with... They're not producing, they are utilizing nature's way, but they don't let the animals see the green and the grass or the outside. They keep them in the barn and just keep feeding them.
Prabhupāda: I don't think it is possible. It is simply imagination.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's the cows which are producing each other, it's not the man that is producing. But they artificially try to make them fat fast.
Prabhupāda: And what is the harm if they live?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Excuse me, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: There is enough grass.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, yes.
Devotee (1): This is a nice park.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Someday we will put on a nice Hare Kṛṣṇa festival here in this park.
Prabhupāda: We shall park here, no?
Devotee (1): Yes?
Prabhupāda: What do you say?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Satsvarūpa: So that is actually Kṛṣṇa Himself within the Deity and He accepts the food by our prayers. So just by His seeing, by His glancing... Try to come and see all these things. And every Sunday we have a festival there. Every evening we have classes on Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. And as long as we students repeat what Śrīla Prabhupāda said, they have the same potency. We don't try to make something up that our guru didn't teach us. We just try to present his teachings.
Guest (2): That's good. Please take it and then we're going to distribute it to everybody. This is Sister Lucille Perry. She has been to India.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Come here.
Lucille: It was a short trip...
Prabhupāda: You had been in India?
Lucille: Yes, sir. I missed you by one or two days. I went to Bombay, and I was staying at Swami Muktananda's, and it said you would be there. The next two days you were going to be there for about a week. And since you have to have permission to leave, I said, "Well, that's why I had gone to India."
Prabhupāda: The Bombay, you have seen our place?
Lucille: No, sir.
Prabhupāda: We have got our place in Juhu.
Prabhupāda: That is the imitation of the ideal.
Jayatīrtha: Some people are trying to make it ideal, trying to make this place ideal.
Prabhupāda: There must be something ideal; otherwise how they will try to make it ideal? They are trying to be immortal. Unless there is something immortal, how they...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The actual ideality is there.
Prabhupāda: That is explained in Bhāgavatam: satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). Finally proof.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If there would be no ideality, the scientists cannot think about ideality itself.
Devotee (1): (indistinct) think about the concept of living eternally because this was the teaching of the church that I was going to. And I used to become very frightened at having to go on and on forever because I couldn't imagine what I'd be doing during all that time. I used to try to put some end to it all. Now in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we understand that eternity is filled up with ideal activities and that eternal life is very blissful and full of knowledge. This concept is not there in any other teaching. (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: The scientist says there is no life after death.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they do not know that. They do not say also, they do not know that. They do not say that there is not life after death because they do not know.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). And when we regularly perform yajña, then there is regular cloud in the sky. And when there is cloud in the sky, there is regular rainfall, and when there is regular rainfall, there is sufficient production of food grains, fruits and other vegetables so that both the animal and the human beings, they eat sufficiently, they grow strength, they become happy and again perform yajña. And the animals supply, the cow supplies milk. In this way, the whole society becomes happy. These are the prescriptions, or directions, given by the Vedic literature. So if people take advantage of this instruction, as you have mentioned in your article "The Great Seers," so if we follow their instruction, the whole history of the human being can be changed. There is no difficulty. But whether the people will accept or not, that is the business of the leaders of the society. So far I think that British people, they organized very nicely the British Empire, but some way or other, it is now lost. But still, the British prestige can be elevated if actually, according to the Vedic instruction, you try to make your social construction, the political institution and economic development... Every direction is there. So you are all great historians. And there are many politicians. If you take this instruction of the Vedas little seriously, you can make your state an ideal state, and people are still ready to follow you. Then the whole history of the world will change. And if you people agree, then I can help you. I can help.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes. (pause)
Śyāmasundara: I think Lord Brockway was saying that his ideal is that, at present moment, that men of the world try to make an understanding, intellectual understanding of the problems and try to make an intellectual solution...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...philosophical, conscious...
Prabhupāda: So here is the opportunity. Here is the opportunity.
Śyāmasundara: ...consciousness, become conscious, conscious of...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...the problem.
Prabhupāda: We can, we can discuss on higher intellectual platform this philosophy. It is a science. Therefore we invite the best intelligent person to take part in it. Then other people will follow. That is our proposal.
Śyāmasundara: Interchange of ideas.
Lord Brockway: Well, I don't want to keep you.
Prabhupāda: No, it is very nice...
Lord Brockway: It has been very, very kind of you.
Prabhupāda: ...to associate with you.
Prabhupāda: Now, such a huge quantity of coloring, wherefrom coming, red color? And it will disappear after few minutes. Have you got any control over it, scientist?
Karandhara: Now there is a big scarcity of dye, coloring dye.
Prabhupāda: Ah, take from here red color. Yes, they can increase the scarcity. That's all. That is in their power.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will try to make more, reduce the scarcity.
Prabhupāda: Where is more? Now, because the petrol stock is decreasing, they are disturbed, increase it, increase it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are trying to make synthetic...
Prabhupāda: Again "trying," the same disease, "trying." (laughter) Same disease. Again "trying." That is called... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). They are simply struggle, struggling with the mind. That is their business. Prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Because he is in this prakṛti, under the control of the material nature, prakṛti-sthāni—simply a struggle. And mental concoction: "Now we shall do it. Now we are trying. In future it will be done." Manaḥ. This is mind, mental concoction. Prakṛti is doing their own duty, by nature's law. Now, by nature's law, the winter season is coming. Stop it. Stop it. Make it summer season. What you can do? Why so many cloths are required? Turn it into summer. You cannot do anything. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi... (BG 3.27). The prakṛti is going on, doing its own duty. You cannot check. Now the sun is rising. Now make it dark. Or in the darkness, ask the sun, "Get up." Where is your power? And still you are thinking, that "We are scientists. We are advancing." All foolishness. Just surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). What you can do? You cannot even know how many stars and planets are there. Still unknown.
Yaśomatīnandana: They're so stupid they name it Absolute Truth, but still they try to make their own theories about the Absolute Truth.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: In the Vedic literatures it is stated dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). They can't even understand a simple thing.
Prabhupāda: No. dharma means the codes, the laws of God. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... (BG 18.66). This is dharma. Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up your nonsense manufactured religion. Here is religion. Surrender unto Me." Who will deny? Any religious person will accept it. Who will deny it? This is dharma. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So who will deny? Who is that man who will deny this statement, that one has to surrender to the Supreme? Who will deny it? Therefore it is dharma. You have to submit, just like the government. The government is the supreme, who will deny? Who will deny?
Hṛdayānanda: Only the criminal.
Prabhupāda: Only the criminal. And he'll be punished, that's all. The result, he'll be punished. Beaten with the shoes of policeman, that's all.
Karandhara: Some people get away with it.
Prabhupāda: For some time he'll get away. You can get away from the police custody, but you cannot get away from māyā's custody. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Meat-eating means he's demon, and demon means he'll act in so many ways, demonic way, and he'll be complicated, one after another.
Yaśomatīnandana: These humanists, Prabhupāda, may try to make some...
Prabhupāda: This is humanism. We are trying to save the human being from falling down. This is real humanism, if there is meaning of humanity. We are trying to save everyone, that "Don't fall down. Take full advantage of this human form of life and go back to home, back to Godhead. Be happy." This is humanity. Except this, all bogus, humbug. Except this, all bogus humbug.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that will be this perfect platform, but there's nothing like something perfect. They will explain that...
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. They are trying to go to the perfect platform, but they have no idea what is perfect. That is their foolishness. Why they are making advancement? Advancement means there must be a goal where you will reach? But you have no goal. You do not know what is that goal, so what is the meaning of your advancement? Why you are wasting time blindly?
Karandhara: They want that perfection, but they want it with this body and its paraphernalia. They don't want to give this body up.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this body can also be perfect. But you do not know how to make it.
Karandhara: Because the monarchs of the past days, they used religion to suppress the people so severely in Russia that...
Prabhupāda: Well, something wrong was done; therefore everything is wrong. If somebody, he might have seen some counterfeit coin, does it mean the whole currency is counterfeit? You cannot say like that.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: The śūdra mentality does not know how to correct the situation. They try to make liberty for themselves without instituting real religion again. (break)
Prabhupāda: This idea also. Now there should be examination whether so-called brāhmaṇas, they are actually following the brāhmaṇa regulative principle and chanting the mantra regularly. Otherwise they should be converted again śūdra. If we become safe simply by having a thread and do not do properly, then what is this? This should be examined. Every individual should be asked, "Now chant this Gāyatrī-mantra." He must. Are they doing properly?
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Otherwise, simply by name, so-called sacred thread holder will not do. Then again the same brahminical class as in India. (break) ...Paraśurāma. You know Paraśurāma?
Karandhara: The incarnation?
Prabhupāda: Ah. Because the kṣatriyas were not doing exactly, he twenty-one times massacred them. Finish! And those who, kṣatriyas, fled from India, they came to Europe. So the European means they are coming from the kṣatriya descendant, but they have forgotten their own culture. Indo-aryan. (break) ...strong, then there is no doubt he will be able to control all over the world. That's a fact. But we must keep ourself spiritually strong. Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. Just Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was behaving in His life and that He was teaching. (break) ...behave like spiritual man. Then you can teach. If you don't behave, then how you can teach? (break) ...was brought here. It is more important than the Ganges. (break) One side, there is unrestricted sex life, and other side, stop population. But they cannot take this restricted sex life. Only fault! So if you restrict your sex life that "I shall not beget more than one child or two child," then where is the question of this abortion and contra...? But they, that they cannot. They will have unrestricted sex life; at the same time, they will check overpopulation.
Prabhupāda: So the lawyers and everyone. Especially in your country, this country, because they require money, so they must have money some way or other. That is the prime principle. They require money. That's all.
Karandhara: They charge outrageous fees, $60 an hour, $70 an hour, $5,000 for a little operation. Some doctors, they simply try to make operations so they can get rich. Whenever you come to see them, they say, "You need an operation."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Locana: And they keep their telephone numbers secret so that on Sunday their patients may not disturb their sense gratification with their medical difficulties.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is a very big business here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, medical profession. They have this American Medical Association. They control the whole business. Even government cannot interfere. So they choose students, and they keep the supply so low that the demand is always high. That is why the price always increases. It's terrible.
Karandhara: To stay in a hospital now costs about $150 a day.
Prabhupāda: That is a sort of punishment of sinful activities. When you fall sick, it is due to sinful activity. So you are punished.
Karandhara: It's a very high price.
Rūpānuga: Pay fine.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The more dangerous is the disease, you have to pay more. (break)
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: What's the use? Why shall I think like that? Let them go to hell, and let us go back to home, back to Godhead. Why shall I waste our time? We can advise them, "Do this. You will be happy." If they do not take, then we don't bother anymore. We are not social welfare worker or political worker. We are worker for Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...in this world that people are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let us try to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our only interest. Otherwise we have no interest in this material world. Let them do their own duty and suffer or enjoy. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu (BG 9.29). Samaḥ. Samatā. We are not social worker or political worker. We are Kṛṣṇa worker. So we give advice to them that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and all problems will be solved." That is our duty; and to advise him, to convince him, to give him all facilities. Still, if he does not take, then we are not going to see how long he will suffer, how he will stop. Let them do their own business. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: (BG 18.66) "Give up all nonsense engagement. Just become My devotee," we say like that. But if somebody does not give, give up, also not, then Kṛṣṇa also does not interfere. Let him suffer. (break) ...how long one suffers. He can stop his suffering immediately, but if he does not take the medicine, then what can be done? Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). If Kṛṣṇa withdraws all his sinful activities, then where is the question of suffering? But he will not do. Now, because he is not surrendered soul to Kṛṣṇa, so he is suffering from time immemorial, and nobody can say how long he will suffer. He will go on suffering. It cannot stop. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mūḍha: "Rascal." Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). He does not know, by simply surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, everything will be nice. That he does not know. And if you advise, he will not accept. matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. That is explained by Prahlāda Mahārāja, that "These rascals who have got this idea that 'By adjustment, we shall be happy in this material world,' they will never understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They will never understand because their aim is..." That picture we gave in Back to Godhead, anchor? Yes. Their anchor is to remain here and enjoy. That is their main disease. They do not... Just like the Russian astronaut has gone so high, he was seeing, "Where is Moscow?" The anchor is there in the Moscow.
Prabhupāda: You haven't got to say. But because he hasn't got brain, because he is not guided by the brain, he will misspend and create disturbance in the society.
C. Hennis: Well, we try to look after that in an indirect way. We don't, as I said, we don't tell people how to spend their money. We don't tell them what to do in their free time. We do try to make sure that they have proper facilities for leisure, that they have proper opportunities, sportsgrounds, swimming pools and so forth, although that's not our primary concern. But what we do try to do, and this will interest you very much, we have a very big program concerned with worker's education. We endeavor to provide programs of education to the worker in teaching him how to understand the problems of modern industry, to understand the problems of management, the people on the other side of the table, of the bargaining table; to understand how to read a balance sheet, for example, in a company, or understand what are the problems that face the management as distinct from the workers in a firm; to understand of the basic rudiments of economics and finance and that kind of thing. This is a very highly developed program which is addressed to adult workers. Now, clearly if a man wants to drink, he wants to drink. But we feel... We are not interested in the drink particularly, except in that it represents a hazard of work. When it represents a hazard at work, and it may be dangerous to the man in his occupation. There, of course, we are interested in it. We try to limit it in such ways as it is possible to limit it.
Yogeśvara: This is a man's story, if I may mention in this connection. Rūpānuga Mahārāja, one of our students, before joining the movement was a social worker. And he told me once a story about a particular case of a woman who was in a very destitute position. Her husband was in the hospital, she had five children, and one was... So many problems were there. And Rūpānuga was going and giving her her weekly money from the government, welfare check. And one day he came unexpectedly because part of his job was to see how they were using the money. And he found her there in her apartment with a strange man and drugs and alcohol on the floors and the children running naked, and he was obliged to stop giving her the money. Simply because there had been no proper use of it, there was no point in giving it. It was not doing her any good. To improve her situation superficially wasn't improving the situation at all.
Prabhupāda: It is a little technical subject, so translation. We... Our Bhagavad-gītā, there is yoga practice also. So we approve this yoga practice. There is no doubt. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogis, they also sees the Absolute Truth by meditation within the mind. So this process is approved process, and there are divisions. Sagarbha-yogī, nirgarbha-yogī (?). So what is your special subject matter of yoga?
M. Roost: I try to make a yoga with understanding from occident... I saw that occidental people is more intellectual, and I don't understand very easily the karma-yoga. The dynamics and... I don't understand we must work without, without goal, without intention, without personal intention. And I try to show through the practice of haṭha-yoga that posture and prāṇāyāma and concentration. I try to...
Prabhupāda: Beginning from abdomen?
M. Roost: The kind of meditation I learned in India with Swami Satyananda, it's a few different type meditation.
Prabhupāda: They begin from the abdomen, maṇipūraka, maṇipūraka. And then the intestines. They come to the heart; then ultimately, to the brahma-randhra. This practice?
M. Roost: Yes, it's a practice of kuṇḍalinī-yoga, but very, very temperate, moderate. It is not the kuṇḍalinī-yoga with strong prāṇāyāma. It's more a question of conscious of awareness of breathing and...
Prabhupāda: Awareness of?
M. Roost: Breathing. For example, breathing which starts in...
Prabhupāda: Prāṇāyāma, this is prāṇāyāma.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). As soon as you become a unalloyed devotee of God, all the good qualities will manifest in you. If the good qualities does not manifest in you, that means you are not yet perfect in God consciousness. Just like you European boys, American boys, why you have given... (break) ...one of the item is that good quality that "Why shall I give trouble, pain, to other animals?" This is within the God consciousness. Just like poor-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement. In the U.S.A also, Los Angeles, New York, we invite anyone, "Come and take food." We don't want to see that anyone is hungry. We don't want to see. So God consciousness means all the good ideas we are manufacturing, they will be manifested in God consciousness automatically. Therefore our duty should be, if we want to make all human being well-behaved, then we must try to make every one of them God conscious.
Swiss Man (1): (French)
Guru-gaurāṅga: (translating) "I wanted to hear you say certain things, and you said them."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Guru-gaurāṅga: "And you said them."
M. Roche-dieu: I am very glad to have, to heard you saying these.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. Bring prasāda.
Yogeśvara: (French conversation)
Prabhupāda: Show him the pictures.
Yogeśvara: (French conversation)
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. But this higher class and lower class will continue to exist. Even it is existing in communistic countries. That cannot..., you cannot stop in this material world. The tendency is that everyone is thinking that he shall be the best enjoyer, best enjoyer. So this is called struggle for existence. Naturally, this higher class and lower class will remain. You cannot stop it. Even in communistic country, this Khrushchev was driven away. He was taking all advantages for his family, for himself. As soon as he got the post, he misused it. He gave his son-in-law very big post, his family members. That was detected, and he was charged that "You are using your influence, nepotism." Therefore, he was driven away. So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it. This psychology you cannot stop in the material world. That is not possible. That sacrificing spirit, that "My life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa," then it is possible. Otherwise, as soon as one will get some position and power, he will try to utilize it for his personal benefit. How you can stop it? It is like if you try to make the lion nonviolent. Is it possible? Why lion? Even an ant is violent. Even an ant it is violent. As soon as it gets opportunity, it will bite you. So this tendency of artificial supremacy means material life. That is material life. So how you can stop it? That separation is going on. You see in the spiritual life also. My Godbrothers, they are trying to suppress me. They are writing articles that in foreign countries these things..., Ratha-yātrā is going on, so many temples have been, but they will never mention my name. They have suppressed. They want to... They write articles in such a way that Bon Mahārāja has done so much and they have done so much, and my name is not mentioned. This spirit, "Oh, this man is going so high." Therefore, Bhāgavata says nirmatsarāṇām. You know the meaning of nirmatsarāṇām?
Devotee (1): "Without envy"?
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Anyone can do, provided he knows the art how to do it. It is a technique also. You cannot make experiment as a crude man. You must be expert. But it is... In our Caitanya-caritāmṛta you'll find that there is a statement, caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra: "Just try to make an experiment on the mercy of Lord Caitanya." Vicāra karile citte pabe camatkāra: "When you make an experiment, then you'll be awe-full 'Oh, it is so nice.' " So it is not to be accepted blindly.
Professor: Can one perceive by their own senses what is that...?
Prabhupāda: No, you have to see through the eyes of the śāstra, but God has given you the instrument by which you can make an experiment. Yes. The same thing, as it is stated... Find out that verse from Bhagavad-gītā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). (break) This is the statement. Now you make experiment. You have got physical laboratory. (laughter)
Guest (1): It would be rather difficult, I'm afraid.
Prabhupāda: That you must know the, how it can be experiment. It is given. The example is given that... What is that? "As the child is passing"?
Hṛdayānanda: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death."
Prabhupāda: That's it. Now, this is a fact. Everyone knows that body is changing. Now, how the last body's changed? That you make experiment, how it is passing. Yes. To make experiment means you have to know the science how to make experiment. That is knowledge. You take the basic principle of knowledge, and then you make your experiment and you will know this is perfect.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: I just wanted to ask that question.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. Don't try to make God your servant. That is foolishness. You must always agree that "I am servant of God."
Pañcadraviḍa: Because in the class that... I asked that question because we're saying, well, there's no question of creating life. We're agreeing that the soul already exists. But can the scientists... If a scientist claims he'll create the conditions in which a soul will enter, do we accept that premise, and I thought, "No, because that's giving them much too much ground," that if we say that, then by their definition, they can say, "I am creating life. I don't want to argue over the existence or not of the soul, but I'll arrange all the chemicals for you."
Prabhupāda: Where is that chemist? Where is that chemical combination that, I mean to say, grows a soul, generate a soul? Even if you have got the chemicals, you cannot do it.
Pañcadraviḍa: Whether it's true or not, somebody was claiming to me that the scientists are creating primitive forms of life like enzymes and things like this because enzymes show... Enzymes are produced by life. They show certain living tendencies. The scientists claim they are able to create enzymes.
Prabhupāda: So what is the credit? The enzymes are being naturally created, and the soul is there. So what is his credit? The arrangement is already there automatically, the secretion between the man and the woman, and they mix together, emulsified, and the situation is created, and the soul comes there. The soul is injected through the semina of the man. It is already arranged. So what is your credit?
Paramahaṁsa: Oh, they are enjoying.
Śrutakīrti: It's not suffering to them. They are very happy.
Prabhupāda: You are thinking they are unhappy.
Amogha: Even the police try to make the hippies get off the street, and they say, "No, no, we like it here. We want to stay."
Prabhupāda: Then you want to minimize their suffering?
Amogha: No, we will let the hippies lie there, but for the sick people who are...
Prabhupāda: What is the difference, a hippie lying on the street and in India some patient is lying on the street? What is the difference?
Śrutakīrti: According to the person's desire, we facilitate.
Prabhupāda: No, go on, waste your time. Your philosophy is that "If they feel pleasure lying on the street, so let them lie down." That is your philosophy. Then why do you endeavor for others?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, if they feel pleasure, then we can also let them.
Prabhupāda: So it is then relative. When you...
Śrutakīrti: Yes. According to the person's desire.
Paramahaṁsa: We just want to see that everyone is happy, and that way we will know that we are pleasing God.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to believe only. You have to accept what Bhāgavata says. That is your business. Not to try to make an experiment. That is not possible. It is already experimented, and the mature knowledge is stated there. You have to accept, that's all. Śruti-pramāṇa. Śruti means Vedas. Evidence... Vedic literature there are three kinds of evidences. The most powerful evidence is śruti. If it is stated in the Vedas, that is first-class evidence. Therefore whatever we say, immediately quote some Vedic version, that is the way of understanding. Kṛṣṇa says, Vyāsadeva says, Parāśara says, that's all. We don't require much proof. This is the first-class proof, when you find the statement corroborated by the Vedas. And śruti, smṛti. Smṛti means literature written according to the Vedic version. Śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi (Brs. 1.2.101). Purāṇādi is itihāsa, history. And another pramāṇa is anumāna. And anumāna means "by right person." Thinking that it may be like this, anumāna. That is called anumāna.
Madhudviṣa: Would that be like the songs written by Bhaktivinoda and things like that?
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that the songs written by the great ācāryas are expansions of the holy name. Could you explain that?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Madhudviṣa: The songs written by the great ācāryas are said to be expansions of the holy name.
Prabhupāda: Yes, glorify. Trees live for thousands of years, five thousand, six thousand. Fig tree and banyan tree, they do not die.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): They try to make God their order-supplier, and when the supply does not come, they say there is no God.
Prabhupāda: God is not order-supplier. Otherwise everyone is praying. Just like in the last war, everyone went to church and prayed for saving the life... mostly woman, because all men in Germany especially, everywhere, they went to the war front. So all the women, they went to the church for praying for their husband, for their brother or father. But nobody came back. And later on, they became atheist: "Oh, there is no God." Because God did not supply their order, therefore there is no God. "If God agrees to my proposal and He supplies things as I want, then there is God. Otherwise there is no God." That means God is under my condition. This is going on.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was one song written where the writer said that the reason the Americans won the war was because God is on their side.
Prabhupāda: So, that is the fact. Unless God desired, how they can win? That, we admit that.
Hari-śauri: But now they are again becoming a mouse, the Americans? Now they are losing the favor of God?
Prabhupāda: No, they are right officially: "We trust in God." (break) ...the whole, I think, Americans are fortunate because this saṅkīrtana movement is there. Yes. If they take it more seriously, they will be actually favored nation of the Lord.
Hari-śauri: At the present moment it seems that the Communist movement seems to be taking over more and more countries.
Prabhupāda: They will take because people are becoming godless. That is the defect. People are becoming hippies, godless. This material world is full of miseries because most people are godless. Here... Material world means avoiding God. That is the sum and substance of material world. They are trying to avoid, becoming independent of God. That is their endeavor. The scientist, the philosopher, the politician—everyone is trying that. Therefore they are suffering. Māyā is there. Just like a criminal, if he says "I don't care for government," the police will take care of. That is certain.
Prabhupāda: But if people would have been God conscious, they would have excused, "Oh, they have come for God's service. All right, you can take." Therefore the first business is to make people God conscious. Then everything is adjusted. Yasyāsti bhaktiḥ, there is a verse in Bhāgavata,
- yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā
- sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ
- harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā
- manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ
- (SB 5.18.12)
The meaning is that "Anyone who is God conscious, a devotee, he has got all the good qualities". What we consider as good qualities, he has got. And similarly, one who is not a devotee of God, he has no good qualities because he will hover on the mental platform. There are different platform: bodily concept of life, general, "I am this body. Therefore my business is to satisfy the senses." This is bodily concept of life. And others, they are thinking, "I am not this body. I am mind." So they are going on mental speculation like philosophers, thoughtful men.
And above that, there is intelligent class of men, practicing some yoga. And spiritual platform means above that. First bodily concept, gross, then mental, then intellectual, then spiritual. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is on the spiritual platform, above body, mind and intelligence. But actually, we should come to that platform. Because we are spirit soul, we are neither this body nor this mind nor this intelligence. So one who is on the platform of spiritual consciousness, they have got everything, intelligence, proper use of mind, proper use of the body. Just like a millionaire, he has got all the lower grade possession. Ten rupees or hundred rupees or hundred pounds—he has got all, everything. Similarly, if we try to make an attempt to bring people on the platform of God consciousness, then he is possessing all other qualities: how to take care of the body, how to use the mind, how to use intelligence, everything. But it is not possible that everyone should become God conscious.
Prabhupāda: But of the same kind, having bunch of hair. (break) ...three hundred varieties of birds. How many one has seen? One million. Pakṣiṇam dāsa-lakṣakam. Dāsa-lakṣakam means one million. (break) ...varieties of life, so many varieties of planets, sky, the sea, ocean, the mountains, the rivers, and they want to compete with God. Just see their foolishness. (laughs) Controlling nature, is there... Eh? Bali-mardana? Scientists they want to control nature.
Bali-mardana: Yes, they try to make it rain or stop the rain. They try different experiments.
Prabhupāda: Why not death? Stop death.
Bali-mardana: Yes, they are trying that also. They are not succeeding.
Prabhupāda: That is the misfortune. (break)...they are going to the sky for meeting, the Russian scientists and American scientists? (break)
Bali-mardana: On big island, the island that you visited where the farm is...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bali-mardana: On the island with the farm, the people are, now they are afraid that there will be a volcanic eruption and the whole island will be finished.
Prabhupāda: There is such sign?
Bali-mardana: Yes, because that volcano over there it is still active. It is smoking. It is always smoking.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayatīrtha: So it's a different thing now.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot stop war between bad elements. Make them good. Then you can avoid. You cannot stop fighting between the dogs. That is not possible. If you try to make the dogs stop fighting, it is not possible. Is it possible? Then it is useless attempt. You keep the human being as dogs, and you want stop fighting. That is not possible, impractical.
Peter: Must a person believe in Kṛṣṇa in order to chant?
Prabhupāda: You must believe somebody. You believe in God or not?
Peter: Do I believe in God?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Peter: Um...
Prabhupāda: Doubtful. (laughter)
Peter: Yeah, I guess you could say that.
Prabhupāda: So first of all you have to believe yourself that you are part and parcel of God.
Peter: I don't believe that what I experience is necessarily different from what most of the people...
Prabhupāda: What do you believe? Let me know what you believe. That also you do not know?
Prabhupāda: Let them, every house, small temple, perform kīrtana. Then this will be all success. Do not cook meat. Nice prasādam. Everything can be utilized for better purpose. Now, in the morning, they are sleeping. Nidrāya hriyate naktaṁ vyavayena ca vā vayaḥ (SB 2.1.3). At night either sleeping or sex, and daytime, divā carthehaya rājan kutumba-bharaṇena vā (SB 2.1.3). Daytime, "Where is money? Where is money?" Oh, seventy miles' speed. "Go there. There is some money." All right, take money. Then what is your next business? Kutumba-bharaṇena vā. Just to purchase for the family, finish money. Again tomorrow. "But where is the business of your spiritual life?" "No time. What can we do? Night we are busy in this way, and day we are busy. Where is the time? Don't bother us." (laughs) Divā carthehaya rājan kutumba-bharaṇena vā (SB 2.1.3). (break) ...try to make them devotees, they will not become?
Jayatīrtha: Not very easily.
Prabhupāda:
- bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ
- tayāpahṛta-cetasām
- vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ
- (samādhau) na vidhīyate
- (BG 2.44)
Therefore too much attachment for material enjoyment is disqualification for spiritual life. So the western world is trained up for being too much attached to material enjoyment. Therefore lagging behind in spiritual life. Vedic civilization is not to encourage too much for material enjoyment. Minimize. That is Indian civilization. They, if they had money they used to spend for constructing big temple, not for residential house. Maybe the king only had a big palace. Common men, they didn't care for big palace, the palatial building. Common man would be very glad to live in a cottage, and a small garden for growing vegetables, fruits, small lake, that's all. Not wasting time for big, big buildings, big, big... What is called, amenities?
Jayatīrtha: Amenities. (break)
Prabhupāda: Thousands of hippies are lying down there. In London I have seen in St. James Park, early, because I go for morning walk, that the police is kicking, "Ho! get up! Get up!" And government has engaged men: "Why you are living like this? Come here. If you have no home, we are giving home." They don't care. Therefore the śāstra says that simply try to make man Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is required. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido (SB 1.5.18). In other life, either high-grade life, low-grade life, there was no chance of becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. But the human life there is chance. Kṛṣṇa conscious means, when we speak Kṛṣṇa, God. So that is... There is the chance. So the śāstra says, instead of endeavoring for other things, better you try to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That will solve all the problems.
Jayatīrtha: The hippies see that their fathers have not become happy by their riches.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got some reason, certainly. So they refuse to adopt the way of life of their father or grandfather. So they must have some reason. But on the total we can see that these three classes of men—one in great prosperity, one via-media, and one in want... These three classes of men there are, everywhere, all over the world. Rather...
Guest: Sir, are you familiar with Yogananda's Self-Realization Fellowship and the practice of recruiting wealthy people as patrons for people who are sincerely interested in following a spiritual pursuit?
Prabhupāda: Hm, what is...?
Prabhupāda: Try. Foolishly you try whatever you like. That is another thing. But it is not under your control. You can try. That is your... Of course, you must try as a dutiful father, but you should know that you cannot take any guarantee or do anything, good or bad. That you have already said, "the destiny." That is prominent. That is prominent, not you.
Cyavana: The tendency of the humans...
Prabhupāda: You can do the best to train your child to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is in your power. That you can do. That is the best service, not anything else. That is not possible. If you become yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, and if you try to make your son Kṛṣṇa conscious, that you can do. And that is the duty, real duty. Other things, you cannot do anything. That is destiny. And if you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, then destiny can also be changed. This is the concession of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Destiny also can be changed. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). One who comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his karma is also changed.
Cyavana: Is that karma dovetailed?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cyavana: It's still there.
Prabhupāda: Still can be changed by bhakti. Just like one man is condemned to death. Nobody can change it, but the king can change it. Only by the mercy of king he can be saved, not otherwise. Even the judge who has punished him, he cannot do it. Whatever is ordered, there is order. He cannot change it. Similarly, if you become devotee, then your destiny can be changed. A devotee never is anxious to change his destiny. That is devotee's...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like Mahārāja Parīkṣit.
Prabhupāda: They are living now twenty-five years. In India the average is thirty-five or twenty-five. After all, you are going to die. That you cannot check. (aside:) You have come. Namaskar (Hindi) (break) … very big scientist. They say that life is made out of chemicals. Now you just try to make life by combination of chemicals and fertilize it. Why they cannot do it? So many things. Simply people are being bluffed, and they are kept in ignorance, and they are flourishing at the expense of these rascals.
Indian man (1): That is right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no real knowledge.
Indian man (1): No. They cash in on the ignorance of the people.
Prabhupāda: That's it. (Hindi—break)
Indian man (1): Cheat everybody, I mean, get all the members and live on that. (break)
Indian man (2): Where does it have it's place in Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Oṁkāra is… Oṁkāra is sound representation of Kṛṣṇa. One who is unable to chant Kṛṣṇa, for them oṁkāra. Because there are many envious persons—they won’t chant Kṛṣṇa—therefore Kṛṣṇa has given them oṁkāra.
Indian man (2): And the swastika?
Prabhupāda: Praṇavaḥ. Praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu. It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, raso ’ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi sūryayoḥ, praṇavaḥ sarva-vedeṣu. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to stop. It will be stopped as soon as he becomes a devotee.
Harikeśa: So then gradually it will become the varṇāśrama, with the one central head.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Harikeśa: So we don't try to make a revolutionary system.
Prabhupāda: This is revolution.
Harikeśa: We try to just make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it's automatic revolution.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Peaceful revolution. Other revolution will not stand. (break) (in car) ...perfect philosophy.
Harikeśa: Your method is also the perfect method, the books in the colleges and libraries, educated people and... Wonderful. Actually, you have set everything up to do this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. I am simply putting them for modern man's understanding. That's all.
Harikeśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because they cannot understand, they think, "Dogmatic." It is not dogmatic. Most scientific.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they're all dull-brained. Satisfied with a few scraps, work like dogs. Would you like to walk here, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Where?
Prabhupāda: Then why don't you make an imitation sun here? At night so that you may save so many expenses. So much expenses for electric. The rascal. If you know the chemicals then you make it. Ha? What do they say?
Smarahari: They say there are many suns... but...
Prabhupāda: That's alright. Make you one sun, if you know! Many suns but you have not made anyone of them. You just try to make one, then I shall see your intelligence. Huh? What do you say? Anybody?
Akṣayānanda Swami: They cannot do.
Devotee (1) (woman): They don't have enough power.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Then why do you say nonsense! If you have not enough power there must be somebody powerful than you—you have to admit that—who has made all these things. But you are rascal you have not... You are simply, ahh, what is called? Speculating. That in future we shall be powerful. But the powerful is already there. What is your credit? More powerful-) you cannot conceive even how powerful He a scientist. Huh? Is that alright? What is your value? The already powerful is there, who has manufactured these things. And you are expecting in future you'll be powerful; therefore you are more powerful. Just see their folly. If you are powerful then make it, another imitation sun.
Harikeśa: (half joking) I'm seriously speaking, if we made another one the whole place would become too hot.
Prabhupāda: Hah. So you are scientist, you protect yourself. (laughter)
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Our society is registered in America.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In India presently we are registered in Bombay and all the other centers are branch offices. That's why in Hyderabad they haven't touched us. In Maharastra.... I think Maharastra will be the last state to do something of this type.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But then when it does it, what will you do?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll try our best to escape it, but if there's...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should try to make some provision now if possible.
Mahāṁsa: If the government wants to do that, you can't do anything.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we are changing.... We are making our constitution look like a welfare society, so this way we may not fall under this.
Acyutānanda: We have to preach to them so that they understand the value of this movement.
Prabhupāda: (break) Europeans, they are coming here not for religion, but they are coming for the Kṛṣṇa culture. You have to make that. Religion they have already got, Christian. Why they should come?
Mahāṁsa: They will say that this Kṛṣṇa culture is Hinduism.
Prabhupāda: Then he's a rascal. Prove it in the court. Kṛṣṇa is not Hinduism. Never.... Is there anything in the Bhagavad-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for the Hindus or for the Indians"?
Acyutānanda: The Hindu law is so elastic, anyone who calls himself a Hindu or who practices any branch...
Mahāṁsa: Or puts on tilaka.
Hariśauri: It's just like in the law. They try to make the law so perfect that no one can get around it. But always there is some very smart lawyer who finds a loophole.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Big lawyer means to find out fault with the present law. That is big lawyer. (break) ...to be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is.... (laughs) But these rascals are trying to be more intelligent. Therefore they are called rascals, fools, mūḍha.
Harikeśa: Moghāśā.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Moghāśā mogha-karmaṇo mogha-jñāna-vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). (break) .... Kṛṣṇa says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your..." This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is giving good advice. He'll not accept it. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going.... That facility is māyā, his mind and māyā. He is desiring. That mind is also given by māyā, so that he can punish him very severely. So māyā has given us mind: "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility."
Hariśauri: Mind is an agent of punishment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this material mind. You see a madman. He is also acting in his mind. The mind is polluted; he is acting differently. Mind is there, but it is covered by some infection. Therefore a madman is thinking this way, that way, this way, that way. That's all.
Prabhupāda: They will try to make adjustments with material nature, everything will be failure. ...hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā. They'll never be able to adjust. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed. That's all. (break) ...adjustment to lie down in the skyscraper, and now they are coming. Why they have come to the ground? Punaḥ punaś carvita. Sometimes on the ground, sometimes the sky. (break) They reject the stool and urine and then accept it. They do like that. (laughing) (break) It is rejected. It cannot be utilized. In India still the system is they use metal; when it is broken you can sell it. They take half price and supply new.... They use metal pots, and the (inaudible) is that when it is broken and old we can exchange with new plates. And this kind of bowls you have to throw away. You cannot utilize.
Devotee (3): So they break very easily?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee (3): These plates, the silverware and things that people use?
Prabhupāda: No, whatever (unclear). Silver is not half price. Silver, little less than new one. They purchase one rupee less. It was 200 rupees new, and the purchaser will take 190 (unclear) ...India they use (unclear). Bell metal, copper...
Hari-śauri: Aluminium is becoming very popular now, aren't they?
Prabhupāda: They don't use aluminium much. If they have got excess money, they invest in metal-gold, silver, copper, bell metal.... Immediate loan—you can mortgage the metal pots, the metal ornaments, you get money immediately. (break) ...in a year, that is a metal purchasing ceremony. Every family will purchase, according to his means, some metal pots once in a year. Dhantraivesi(?) (indistinct) means desire some funds. So if there's some extra money—not big, big men; middle class storeman—they invest in metal purchase. If there is a good business day, (unclear) all the utensils (unclear). You know Diwali, Diwali?
Rāmeśvara: They were writing, their lawyers were writing our Society letters that "You cannot use the words 'Transcendental Meditation.' Maharishi has made up this process and you are stealing from him."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's stealing from Kṛṣṇa.
Bharadvāja: Yesterday you gave an example of a man who was lying asleep in bed, and he is transported somewhere in dream, walking on the beach. What is the full...? Because we're going to try to make an exhibit of it. So what is the full analogy? Is he actually going to another place by his mind, he's actually transported?
Prabhupāda: The soul is going there. The seer is the same in this gross body or in the subtle bodies. I am in the, walking in this gross body, I'm seeing this ocean, and I will leave my gross body in dream, I go to India. So the seer is the same. That is the proof of transmigration. He's dreaming tiger, and he's crying, "Here is a tiger, tiger, tiger," and another man, who is seer of the body, he says, "Where is tiger?" So this is the difference. One is seeing through this gross body, another seeing through the subtle body, but the seer is the same. Transmigration of the soul means, when he's seeing through.... That is practical. The child, when he's seeing through the childish body, he's talking nonsense. The same soul, when he's talking as an elderly person, he's talking beautiful (indistinct). The seer is the same, simply the glass is changed. Sometimes blue, sometimes red. (break) Seer is the same, medium is different. That you have.... And dead body means the seer is no longer there. It has entered another body. (break)
Pradyumna: ...when someone is sleeping and dreaming, that the seer has left the gross body?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: These are all artificial. The harijana word was used by Gandhi unnecessarily for a class of men who are not fit for the position. Harijana means "the men of Hari." Just like Nārada. Nārada is called harijana. Great devotee is called harijana, "the persons related with Hari." But if you select some bhangis and camaras and keep them as he is and rubberstamp it, "Here is a harijana," what will be the effect? There is no harm to pick up a low class man and to elevate him to the position of harijana. There is no impediment. You can do. But if you keep him a low class man and if you stamp him harijana, then what will be benefit? Just like we are initiating selected men. "Are you ready to follow these rules and regulation? When he says, then "Come on. Become harijana." Not that "I'll keep myself in that same abominable condition of life and I shall become harijana." So this "harijana" word has come from Gandhi. He did not try to make him real harijana. He simply rubberstamped him. So what is the value of this harijana?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There's another section to this question. In other words, how can all sections of Hindus be made to take an equal interest and have the same sense of belonging to the Hindu religion?
Prabhupāda: Why you sticking to the Hindu religion? Any Hindu will accept Bhagavad-gītā and Kṛṣṇa. So why not ask them to take Kṛṣṇa? Why so-called Hinduism? Who is a Hindu who will deny the authority of Kṛṣṇa? Is he a Hindu? Every Hindu observes Janmāṣṭamī, the birthday of Kṛṣṇa. So why do they not take Kṛṣṇa's advice and remain practically Hindu? They will not take advice of Kṛṣṇa, and they, how they can claim to be Hindu?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can all people have an equal interest in religion despite their different classifications?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That we understand, only your Divine Grace's disciples, but not everyone.
Prabhupāda: Then you try to make understand others that this is the position.
Rūpānuga: One thing is, the modern biologists, they have no...
Prabhupāda: You cannot, you cannot... What is your question?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The question is, now we want to argue that how is it possible, now you are claiming that life is coming from molecules? If you claim like that, then how is it possible that in the same species, let's say in the birds, that these qualities are spreading? Some birds we see behave like a little influenced by the modes of goodness, though it is mixed. Like swan, we are taking that example. But some are like eagle, very passionate, wants to kill small birds as their food, and on the other hand, birds like crows, they like just to be completely ignorant, or they like to survive in a dirty environment. Why? Is this possible just from the concept of molecular evolution? It's completely, it's failing. They have no explanation along those terms. So we thought to bring up these points, it will be very clear that this evolution is completely wrong. So we want to use that...
Prabhupāda: There is no question of evolution. It is already there. This is a wrong theory. The monkey is there, the man is there. The soul is going from monkey to man. It is not the evolution. Just like you have got apartment, ten rupees, five rupees, twenty rupees, thirty rupees, like that. Now, as you pay, "Come on, here." There is no question of evolution. It is already there. Jantur dehopapattaye. These dehas, these bodies, are already there. So immediately it develops a particular type of desire, "Yes, come here, sit down." First class, second class, third class, fourth class is already there. As you pay, "Yes, come here." It is not evolving; it is already there. He is transferred from one apartment to another. This has to be convinced. We don't find that monkey's body became a human body. That is not in the experience, anyone. The monkey is there, the human being is there. But the soul is going from monkey's body to human's body, or monkey's body to another body. That is by superior administration. Their theory is the body is evolving and some body is missing. Nothing is missing. Every body is there. The soul is being transferred from one body to another.
Prabhupāda: That means they are already in the platform of salvation.
Dr. Sharma: Through them, you are working for the salvation of others.
Prabhupāda: Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). That is the injunction, that first of all you become perfect, then try to make others perfect. So anyone is actually trying to do perfection for others, he is already perfect.
Dr. Sharma: The devotees are working for the salvation for everyone.
Prabhupāda: He's already perfect. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). The one who's trying for others' salvation... That is a devotee's business. Ordinary man cannot do it. Because he's doing that, it is to be understood that he's already on the platform of... Because salvation means to remain his own position. Muktir hitvānyathā-rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Svarūpa is to serve God. So if one is serving on behalf of God, then he's in svarūpa, mukti. Others are acting for his own benefit, but a devotee is acting for others' benefit. Therefore he's already on the platform of liberation.
Guest (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, should I have resigned my membership with the Christian organization? Should I have? I did. Could I serve Kṛṣṇa just as well and also through a Christian? I don't see how I could.
Prabhupāda: No, we don't say like that. (laughs) Christian, actually one who is Christian, he's as good as Vaiṣṇava. A Christian means he recognizes God is great. So we also accept God is great. Where is the difference? God is great in all circumstances. So if anyone accepts God is great, that is perfect.
Guest (2): That's what the church board said to me. They said, "You believe in Kṛṣṇa, we believe in God. Why do you go? What's superior?" I feel that your knowledge is superior.
Prabhupāda: Sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ. "Now all my doubts are over. Now I shall kill." Why did you not say this to your European audience?
Indian man (3): Because I don't know the Gītā myself that good.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you preach? First of all know, then preach. If you did not know, you should not preach. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). First of all make your life perfect, then try to make others perfect. Don't cheat others. So when Arjuna actually became intelligent, he said sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. This is understanding. "Yes, now I am situated in my proper understanding, I shall carry out Your order."
Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard on one lecture tape, you mentioned your Guru Mahārāja has said that in the morning he had to beat the mind into submission. How can we do this?
Prabhupāda: Practice this. Your mind, when he says something hodgepodge, just beat him with shoes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order, that you speak the Vedic culture. That is India's mission. But these rascals, they are speaking technology.
Devotee: Try to make money.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that it is due to this culture that India has been kept down. Because the British taught them that, and now they themselves think like that.
Prabhupāda: Still, any Indian who comes to speak about some culture like this, you flock together. Why? Why you go to this Maharishi, this Bal Yogi, and this one. Why?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They're from India.
Prabhupāda: Because you expect something from India. They are cheating, that is different thing, but you go there to get something from India. That's a fact.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means you have delivered the real goods, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That's a fact. They're expecting. I read some articles from India: they're expecting some good message.
Bali-mardana: They are like glowworms, and you are like the sun.
Prabhupāda: No, they know that "These people they are wanting something, so let us go and cheat." This is going on.
Bali-mardana: They're simply businessmen.
Prabhupāda: They will say that is... Whatever they... Foolishly whatever they may say, then let them say. Actually he doesn't like to die. Otherwise let there be fire, why you called fire brigade? Let me die peacefully in the fire. (laughter) Nonsense he's suffering, but still he says there is no suffering. That is nonsense. That is ignorance. He's suffering every moment, but he does not know why he's suffering. That is ignorance. Just like an animal, you are taking into the slaughterhouse. He's suffering, he's screaming, but he does not know why you have taken to slaughterhouse (indistinct). And that is animal life. And when there will be question of why I am suffering? I did not want this fire, why there is fire? That is perfection (indistinct). Is there any solution? Then there is human life. And if he remains like animal, and simply try to make some remedial measures... He's suffering undoubtedly, but because he does not take it seriously, therefore he's animal. Animal does not take seriously why he's suffering. That is the distinction between human life and animal life. Suffering is there, but the animal does not take it seriously. But human life must take it seriously otherwise he's an animal. There are so many sufferings. This is adhibhau... adhidaivika. Adhidaivika: by—you say accident—by nature, by superior power. Some miserable condition is enforced upon us. Suppose if there is an earthquake, that is not in your hand, but it may cause some havoc. This is adhidaivika. Similar, adhibhautika: Suffering caused by other living entities. And adhyātmika, suffering caused by this body and mind. So suffering is always there, but we are suffering, we have been accustomed to suffer. But when the question is that why I am suffering, whether there is any remedy? That is human life. Otherwise, the animal life. That is the distinction between animal and human life. If there is fire, and there are animals only, dogs and cats, they cannot call fire brigade. They'll die, because they do not know how to take measures.
Prabhupāda: So we are not meant for that civilization. We are meant for the civilization by which one can understand his position, constitutional position, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Therefore our activities are different from the hogs and dogs.
Interviewer: So what is generally taken here... I mean, this is the American bicentennial year, and the Declaration of Independence talks about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Are you suggesting then that what is taken to be life is actually the antithesis of life? What is taken to be liberty is actually enslavement? And what is assumed to be the pursuit of happiness is nothing more than a rat race in which you try to make the best of what you can?
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is happiness. Bhagavad-gītā points out what is your distress. Can anyone say what is the actual distress? They do not know it. Distress they are taking as usual part of life. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is philosophy, to find out what is distress. This is directly said by Kṛṣṇa, that these are distresses, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, to take birth, to die, to become old and to become diseased. But they do not know it. Not only they, everyone, all over the world, they take it as part of life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. When a man becomes diseased, when a man becomes old, or when a man dies, they take it it is usual. They have been accustomed to these distresses so much that they do not take it as distress. So this is their ignorance. This is their ignorance. They do not know what is distress and they are struggling for moving the distress. Just like this independence. They do not know what is meaning of independence. Real independence is when you are free from these four kinds of distress. Does it mean that observing this kind of independence is real independence? It is simply fictitious. If you are not free from the laws of nature, nature will enforce you to die. Then where is your independence? Nobody wants to die, so why he's enforced to die? Nobody wants to become old man. Why he's enforced to become old man? But they have no brain to understand what is independence, what is happiness.
Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja was in favor of preaching in the city because you can get many men.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But do you think I should travel a lot, or what is the best thing?
Prabhupāda: Both things should be done.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Both. So if you... We were hoping that you could give us another chance by coming back next year.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, I'll come.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you do say that to a lot of different temples, but we will try to make this doubly big.
Prabhupāda: Always, so long I live, I must come.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we get on Fifth Avenue, you'll come again?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we will double the amount of people, promise.
Bali-mardana: And double the prasādam.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We will double everything if you are here, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. I can stay here also. I like especially New York, because I started the movement here. And because there are so many branches, if I go they become enlivened.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, right, just like we are enlivened.
Prabhupāda: In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible.
- brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
- na śocati na kāṅkṣati
- samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param
- (BG 18.54)
Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying: the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists, to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform. It is threefold miserable conditions. Just like we are trying to avoid some miserable condition, very insignificant—to get out of the disturbance created by the mosquitoes and the flies. We are trying our best, but still they are disturbing. Is it not? Still they find out some loopholes and go in to the room and disturb you. So you cannot avoid. Similarly, the disturbances of nature: the severe cold, scorching heat, how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Adhyātmic, you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, bit still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice. So these things will go on. Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work. You cannot make any adjustments. That's not possible. (If) you have come to the spiritual platform independent of this material body, then there will be everything solved. On every surface (?). They can waste their time for making an adjustment, but that is not possible. I have given some example, that everyone is trying to become free from the material disturbances, but it is not possible. Nobody is free from material disturbance. That is not possible. So if you actually want freedom from material disturbances, you have to come to the spiritual platform and cultivate spiritual knowledge and be fixed up. Then your life is successful.
Prabhupāda: That you have to increase. Simply the preliminary faith, that is very good, but unless that faith is increased more and more, then there is no progress.
Parivrājakācārya: There is danger of losing that faith.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you do not try to make progress and go forward progressively, then there is danger whatever little faith you have got, that will diminish.
Hari-śauri: Your understanding of God tends to remain somewhat theoretical until one actually does something practical. Then it actually manifests as something solid, as a reality.
Prabhupāda: Theoretical and practical. Scientific knowledge means both, theoretical and practical. (someone enters) If you like, you can sit down there. I have no objection if you sit down.
Jñānagamya: It is up to you, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No, I am... Everyone, you can... Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is practical. They are fully engaged how to make progressive advance in love of Godhead. They have no other business.
Hari-śauri: Nowadays generally, if someone is very religious and he wants to do some practical action, he usually acts on the social platform.
Prabhupāda: No, there, everywhere practical action. Just like all the Muhammadans, they go to the mosque, five times they offer prayer. That is good, very good.
Prabhupāda: Where is that own place?
Gargamuni: Well, there are buildings that we can get. In Balijunj we have some offers. That's if this park doesn't come through. If the park does not come through, then we can...
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all all try to make... This is the best place in Calcutta.
Jayapatākā: I personally went with Abhirāma to see the minister, and the minister didn't give any stipulation. He was only for the project. His only reservation was that, he said first of all, politically, he doesn't know about our society. If the government home department says that it's all right... As far as the program is, the plan that was given, he totally accepts it as it is.
Gargamuni: That's when I saw him.
Jayapatākā: Since then, Abhirāma has not seen him. But the people in the corporation, they have refused it without his sanction and they have written him that the minister said he does not want it. When we took that. We showed it to the minister. He said, "This is completely wrong." He said, "No, no, no! There is some misunderstanding." Then he said, "You write me a letter that there is some misunderstanding, and I will take care of this matter."
Gargamuni: So he wrote the letter and now they forward that letter back to the Calcutta corporation without a letter from the minister. Because he went back there. He just told me that. So it's back again to the same guys who, you know... Of course, I don't know what letter he has written, but the officers would not tell us anything. Anyway, we will try our best.
Prabhupāda: Why not take the Victoria Memorial? What is, they are doing?
Prabhupāda: Mirage. There is no water. It appears there is water, and the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niṣkiñcana. Niṣkiñcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana... This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiñcana. You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it... Just like Draupadī. Draupadī, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karṇa wanted to make her naked. So generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and..." So cloth is being supplied by Kṛṣṇa, but how long I shall? No, before Kṛṣṇa helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then she did not try to save the cloth. She said, "Kṛṣṇa, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Kṛṣṇa supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duḥśāsana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply." So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad-bhajana, he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose? At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction. "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya. We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably." Then it is very dangerous. So long we work for Kṛṣṇa, it is Kṛṣṇa's, I am still nothing. And as soon as I take it, "Oh, now I have got very good, comfortable place.
Prabhupāda: Mirage. There is no water. It appears there is water, and the animal goes forward and it goes forward, it goes forward. So this material world is like that. Ask anybody, any so-called successful. Unless he's an ass, nobody will say that this is very comfortable. So best thing is to become niṣkiñcana. Niṣkiñcanasya bhāgavata-bhajana... This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction. Bhāgavata-bhajana means niṣkiñcana. You make nothing this material world. That is real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long I'll make this material world something, then I'll suffer. Best thing is make it... Just like Draupadī. Draupadī, when she was grabbed in the assembly and Duryodhana and Karṇa wanted to make her naked. So generally woman, if you try to make her naked she'll try to save herself. So she was trying to save herself and when she thought, "There is no way. My husbands are here. They are not helping, and..." So cloth is being supplied by Kṛṣṇa, but how long I shall? No, before Kṛṣṇa helping, she was trying to help herself. But when she found that it is not possible, then she did not try to save the cloth. She said, "Kṛṣṇa, save me!" Two arms. You have seen the picture. And then Kṛṣṇa supplied cloth. So it is, "Go on, yes, Duḥśāsana, you go on. You try to make her naked. I'll supply." So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction, that one should, if one is serious about bhagavad-bhajana, he should take it, whole material world, as nothing. Sometimes I think, I made nothing this material world, and again retired in Vṛndāvana. Again Kṛṣṇa, you have given so many things. What is the purpose? At that time, I remember Rūpa Gosvāmī's instruction. "This is not mine. This is Kṛṣṇa's." Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgya. We are exerting so much energy to construct a temple, but as soon as we become implicated, "Now I have got this big building. Let me live very comfortably."
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That's all. So we are trying to do that. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). It will be accepted by the devotees, not the karmī, jñānī, yogis, no. Only bhaktas. Therefore mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. So we have got two functions: first of all we are trying to make them bhakta, and then convincing him about this philosophy. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. Without being bhakta, nobody will understand what is yoga. The beginning is bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyam ekam uttamam: (BG 4.3) "Because, Arjuna, you are My bhakta, I'll explain to you. Otherwise it is lost." So without being a bhakta, nobody can understand Bhagavad-gītā. However he may say that "I am very staunch devotee. I am reader of...," he will misunderstand. So here Kṛṣṇa clearly says that "This is the most confidential knowledge. And without being bhakta, nobody will be able to understand." So the preacher has got two different businesses. One side, he has to make bhakta. The persons will... Because without being bhakta, he cannot understand. Then he teaches. So these two businesses going on in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. To become bhakta there is Deity—"Come here. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: Just think of Me: Just man-manā. And become a devotee." And naturally, if he comes to the temple, he'll offer some obeisances, he'll offer some flower, some fruit. Mad-yājī. Even a child will offer namaskara. In this way he becomes devotee. And then he understands. So we have got two functions. All over the world, whey we are opening these centers? Bhakto 'si—to make them bhakta. And they have become bhakta. And then you speak something about Kṛṣṇa. He'll learn it. So that is explained here, ya idaṁ paramam... Who will surrender? "Huh! I shall go to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. I shall surrender to my senses." Surrender he has to. He's not independent. But ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. Because he's rascal by ahaṅkāra, false ego, he does not accept Kṛṣṇa—"Huh! Why shall I accept Kṛṣṇa?" He will accept māyā. And the māyā, by pulling by the ear—"Come here. Sit down"—that I shall accept. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām... And that... But stop that force. That he does not do. "Better let māyā pull me by the ear, and whatever she likes, I shall do." But he'll not like to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is very confidential knowledge, to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So anyone who tries for this business... That is Kṛṣṇa's desire, that "Try to make these rascals a devotee and convince him about the importance of Bhagavad-gītā." If you do this thing, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (Bg 18.68), then? What is next line?
Prabhupāda: No, he had. So what is his position now?
Rāmeśvara: His family has called him a false guru. So there's a slip.
Prabhupāda: His mother.
Hari-śauri: What was the effect of that?
Rāmeśvara: He lost a lot of his following. The main ones... There are a few small ones. Moon, Reverend Moon, he is a big demon, and they're attacking him, so that's good. But then they try to make us to be just like him. I've heard them say that you have a big penthouse in Los Angeles, and you always drive in Rolls Royces. I've heard these things, but we...
Prabhupāda: Yes, I heard all this. In Germany they accused me. You told me.
Haṁsadūta: Yes, they also say that you're enjoying all this money.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: Harikeśa said that if they're successful in their prosecution against Haṁsadūta, then they'll prosecute yourself, one leader to the other. They say that the leaders are manipulating, and the other ones are just robots.
Trivikrama: Yes, we're all robots.
Rāmeśvara: Whenever they meet a devotee who appears to be intelligent and not have any symptoms of being brainwashed, they accuse him of being one of the leaders. If I'm debating with one of them, or if any devotee, and they see he's very intelligent, they say, "But you are one of the leaders."
Prabhupāda: Certainly that is a fact. (laughter) All GBC, they are leaders.
Rāmeśvara: They cannot accuse us of brainwashing when we have so much artwork and publishing work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "We are giving culture, art, scientific knowledge. You are accusing. It is good for your nation. Think nationalwise what we are doing. We are not fools. They are also educated. They are coming from respectable family. Why you say that we have become befooled, brainwashed? We are not so fool that I shall be brainwashed by some Indian." Try to make compromise before them. Actually, this is a great culture.
Rāmeśvara: These are the heads for the Śeṣa-naga of this Mahā-Viṣṇu exhibit. They are made from rubber and they have all the details.
Prabhupāda: Acchā. How rubber you make mold?
Rāmeśvara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You do yourself?
Rāmeśvara: They do, yes.
Prabhupāda: So what is the benefit of rubber?
Rāmeśvara: It has something to do with the curves.
Prabhupāda: Oh. In clay, it cannot.
Rāmeśvara: They started manufacturing it, at a time. That's what they used. This is a doll of Kṛṣṇa speaking to Arjuna on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra.
Prabhupāda: No, no. We shall... If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then the so many nonsense departments will be reduced.
Hari-śauri: Simplified.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The department, the sinful departments, illicit sex, meat-eating, this will be closed, and that will make simple.
Rāmeśvara: Completely?
Prabhupāda: No, at least we shall try to make closed. And if people become localized, then this traffic will be little. Just like I am trying to organize the farm. If people do not come out of home, then this system will be obsolete. There will be no more department. They have created hundreds. They do not know how to manage it. For livelihood they have to go to Bombay, and therefore they require so many local trains. But if they localized, they can get their livelihood locally, there is no question of these all...
Rāmeśvara: In America this is becoming the number-one problem—unemployment.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be. Artificial employment. (train re-starts)
Rāmeśvara: People go to college in America; they can no longer get jobs. They spend so many years going to college getting their degree. So now they cannot find any jobs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the position in America. And what to speak of this country. Therefore, after being educated they go to foreign countries. You'll find so many Indians in educational labs(?) in your country, because they don't get any suitable jobs. (break) ...their so many departments will be closed.
Prabhupāda: No, you show example. People will do automatically. When the people find it is very nice, they will take.
Hari-śauri: Should we try to make an effort to have our householders go and live on the farms, a special effort? If it's ready to do that?
Prabhupāda: Why householders? Everyone. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (japa)
Rāmeśvara: In America there is a very big emphasis on getting people to join us by moving into our temples. The temple presidents are very eager to get as many people to move in as possible, but in the long run most people cannot come up to the standard.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I am... Farms.
Rāmeśvara: So they have to be encouraged to have a little bit of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in their own home, make their home a temple.
Prabhupāda: No, let them go to the farm, New Vrindaban.
Rāmeśvara: Many people... Most people in the world, they are gṛhamedhīs, and they cannot give it up so easily.
Prabhupāda: "No, you remain... Come here with your wife, children. You remain gṛhamedhī."
Jagadīśa: New Vrindaban is very austere. If we build little bungalows with modern convenience...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: That is individual surrender. We have not rendered that way. He surrendered individually.
Hari-śauri: When Christ preached, he told them to "Give up your work; give up your family; give up everything. Don't try to earn a livelihood. Don't worry about where your food will come from. Don't worry where your cloth will come from." He said that in his instructions to his disciples. I think it's in the Acts according to St. Matthew.
Jagadīśa: His disciples simply...
Hari-śauri: He gave the example that "The birds, they do not try to make a living, but God is feeding them. So do you not think God will help feed if you go out and do His work?" That is what he said to them. (indistinct) And they say they are Christians, but actually the real Christianity is what we are practicing.
Rāmeśvara: And also Dr. Harvey Cox of Harvard, he quoted one section of the Bible where Jesus was preaching and his mother did not like it, and his father, and they came to get him away. They thought he was gone crazy, that he was preaching so much about God. So they came to his place where he had gathered many people. They wanted to deprogram him. And Jesus said, "You're not my mother. You're not my father. My real father is in heaven, and my real relatives are those who believe in God."
Prabhupāda: Where is that?
Rāmeśvara: That's right in the Bible.
Prabhupāda: (break) Because there are many fanatics. Hm?
Hari-śauri: Through America it's full of persecutors.(?) These people are very, very hateful towards our men. Europe is all right. Europe...
Gargamuni: I told him this. He was interested. He was. But he told me, "Under the present..." The CIA used to give money to certain groups to stop Communism, he said, but recently they have been under investigation for this, so he said it would be very dangerous for them to do such a thing now. But he said he would talk it over. Since then, though, I have not met him. This was at the time when we were called CIA in Calcutta, when it came in the papers. I went to them for advice because they also became very much upset because just before that, the Consulate with his wife came to Māyāpur and saw all of our activities. They were very impressed. And they printed this in the newspaper, trying to show that the Consulate General was also an agent along with Bhavānanda. So he became very angry. He became very angry that they should try to make this up. He said, "Actually I had personally... My wife wanted to come, but I was not so much interested. But because my wife came, I came also. But I don't see why they are trying to link me along with your society as CIA." He said, "This is very bad." And from what I know, they made a formal complaint to the Home Minister of West Bengal, the Home Secretary.
Prabhupāda: That is good.
Gargamuni: 'Cause his assistant, Mr. O'Neil, told me that they received a telex from Washington saying that formal protest should be made that ISKCON is not part of the CIA and also they are not funded by the government of the United States.
Prabhupāda: People can say anything. But if there is officially protest, that is...
Gargamuni: Yes. He said. (break) ...there at Purī, yes. In our sampradāya these—Māyāpur, Purī, and Vṛndāvana—are most important.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Now if we revive, just like Pānihāṭi...
Gargamuni: Yes, and Pānihāṭi also.
Prabhupāda: Haridāsa Ṭhākura had part. Here, at Siddha-bokula. Siddha-bokula, Gambhīrā—if you try, you can get.
Gargamuni: Yes. And this Remuṇā maybe.
Prabhupāda: Remuṇā.
Prabhupāda: No, they were very good gentlemen. Dr. Urquhart was a godly man. He was so nice.
Satsvarūpa: Isn't he the one who said the woman's brain is thirty-two...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I remember. He told, the woman's brain, thirty-four ounce, man's brain, up to sixty-four ounce. He told. I remember. He was very saintly man, Dr. Urquhart. And before that there was one principal. He's Watt, Mr. Watt. He was the roughest man. He'd fight with the students like guṇḍā, Mr. Watt. But he was very good manager, principal.
Satsvarūpa: Did they try to make you Christian? Like that?
Prabhupāda: No. There was Bible class, compulsory, half an hour, from one to half past one.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Huh? No. They used to supply yearly one Bible, very nice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Free. But no one became a Christian.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) No one. In India, in those days... (break) ...all the Jains. Jains... (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only vaiśya community.
Mr. Dwivedi: Bhopal is the capital.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We had a big function in Bhopal, my party, for about ten days a few years ago.
Mr. Dwivedi: And then I also desire, as Your Holiness is going, that press should be briefed right from Bombay. Why should I wait from Gwalior... Because I expect some people a few hundred miles off from Gwalior will also be traveling up to meet Your Holiness. So if they know beforehand in papers of Bombay it is better. Therefore I have requested my friend, Mr. Goswami, to give me two or three blocks. If it comes out that way, for our purposes also, he'll need it, and here also I shall try to make correspondence to one or two papers there, that they should ready to send their representatives over there, that way.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing that Mr. Jetthi is not available, do you have some second choice?
Mr. Dwivedi: Then my second choice will be on Mr. Nanda. Mr. Nanda also knows me.
Prabhupāda: Nanda knows me very well. Nanda...
Mr. Dwivedi: He also knows me, and he wanted to start a yogāśrama over there but for himself, and he had a mind.
Prabhupāda: I don't think... If Jetthi does not come, then don't attend from any other.
Mr. Dwivedi: And Jetthi will be best, definitely.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mr. Dwivedi: Jetthi will be the best.
Prabhupāda: So then question will be that "If we do not get some economic facilities, so how we can live?" And that's a fact. Therefore it is said here, dharmasya hi... No. What is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta... (SB 1.2.10).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāmasya, sense gratification, required, but not for sense gratification's sake. It requires only for living comfortably. You try to make the economic development, that is all right. But they have taken simply for sense gratification. "I have got one car, and there must be another three cars for my children and wife." This is going on, kāma, increasing. Economic development... You require some occupational duty for earning your livelihood... That is allowed. But why more and more, more, more, more? For that, they are making scientific research how to satisfy senses. So kāmasya na indriya-prītiḥ. You require some sense gratification not for the senses, but because you have got a bad bargain, this body, just to maintain it, not more than. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. So there are so many problems we have created. They do not understand. And this civilization are simply gratifying senses, so dangerous. And dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). And they create a position by very, very hard labor, and the body is changed. Then śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). What benefit you get? This life, you make a skyscraper building, three dozen cars, and next life, you become a dog. Then what is your profit? What do you gain? They do not gain anything. So that change of body is in nature's hand. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). That is not in your hand. When the body will change, you cannot say, "No, no, I'll not change," because that is not under your dictation. So is not simply waste of time?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Bhāgavata says so clearly, śrama eva hi kevalam.
Prabhupāda: These rascals, they do not understand. This is the position.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And now I've just written... I'm adding three more cards to the line to give people more variety. So...
Prabhupāda: Very good. So there you have got business. You have got money. Why you are miser? Earn money and spend money. That's all. I know this business. Earn money and spend money.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I try to make it...
Prabhupāda: Throughout my whole life I have done this. Earn money and spend money. I am not miser.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. When you wanted something...
Prabhupāda: See money. Earn money and see money. I don't follow this policy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When you wanted something, you'd spend anything.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like that land in Bombay, that house...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Whatever everyone wanted, "All right, take it." Finish. I know. I am giving ten thousand more, fifteen thousand more. I didn't mind. "Take it and finish business tomorrow. Take it."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That man was surprised that you didn't bargain with him.
Prabhupāda: No. I simply asked, "Whether you are going to finish it tomorrow. So I have agreed to pay." He said, "Yes, I can." What is that?
Prabhupāda: Instead of defeating Kṛṣṇa, he became defeated. He could not understand what He was doing. Brahmā is the chief person within this universe. He became so much bewildered, what to speak of so-called scientists and philosophers. We should not make such attempt. The best thing is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). We should give up all our tiny efforts to defy the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa. Better whatever arrangement He is proposing, do like this. This is Bhagavad-gītā. That will make us happy. Is this clear?
Pradyumna: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Then it says, (Sanskrit). So mohayan vatsa-bāla-steyena, "By stealing the vatsa and bālas," mohayitum upakramamāṇaḥ... Viśvanātha Cakravartī says, "Just beginning to try to make him illusioned." (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: I have already explained that.
Pradyumna: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Instead of bewildering Kṛṣṇa, he became defeated.
Pradyumna: (Sanskrit-mohitasyāpi to mityarthaḥ)
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. As we are trying to defeat the arrangement of Kṛṣṇa, we are becoming implicated in Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It cannot be. And better... Mām eva ye prapadyante. Anyone who has reached to surrender to the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, māyām etāṁ taranti, he is liberated. He is free from Kṛṣṇa's māyā. Just like government force you cannot overcome. First of all there are laws. Then there is police power. Then there is military power. One after another... What is the use of trying to overcome government power? This is, is... So...
Pradyumna: (Sanskrit-na to iti)
Prabhupāda: Yes. He became defeated by his own attempt.
Prabhupāda: So?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Girirāja?
Prabhupāda: You repeat what I have sa...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said that if he does not exist till the Bombay opening, then it should be performed very gorgeously, and everyone should be fed sumptuous prasādam, and it should be celebrated as early as possible.
Prabhupāda: And one thing... Just now I am forgetting. And don't try to make preparation in the temple. Order the foodstuff from confectioner. Have good stock and distribute.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All of the prasādam, or just sweets?
Prabhupāda: Sweets. There are many nice sweet supplier in Bombay. Order them... (break) How do you like this idea?
Girirāja: It's very good idea, except that we feel that you should personally be present.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's desire. You are trying. I am also trying. Now it is Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma's desire.
Bhagavān: You are the jewel that will make it all gorgeous, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So I am giving the idea. Ha. HAAA!
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Complan is here, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So what shall I do?
Prabhupāda: 27th October?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This month, yes, October 27th. It was Indian National Science Academy. There are some very well known scientists, including Kothari, D. S. Kothari and other... They told me there is a group of scientists in Delhi, actually from all over India. It's called "Mind Group." They like to do research on nature of consciousness. And they told me that it would be very good if we have a debate between our group and their group. So I agreed to that. And the Mishra, actually, the one who came last time, he also belongs to that group, and Kothari is the chairman of that group, and there's one Bengali called Lankadas(?) Gupta. He's the secretary. They all belong to that group. So they're going to invite us for a, they call, round-table debate. It will be about twenty people from their side and five from our side. So we're going to have a confrontation. And also Dr. Krana told me that when I come I can fix a television program in Delhi to appear us, and they're going to interview us in the Indian television. But I decided to establish Bombay as a... Since we have everything there ready, I'd like to furnish with office, and also I requested our members to stay here for some time. So they're going to establish the library also. I have plans to contact many leading scientists, personal goal. So we'll all go out with our books, and we'll try to make them members of the Institute. Also in the process we'll speak and make engagements, and also we'll try to request them to help us in pushing this movement, plus we'll request them to review our books on a scientific level. And, so that way we can make friends and they can help us in, I think, various ways. I think that... I'm thinking of charging one hundred rupees only for membership.
Prabhupāda: Enroll the intelligent men.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the meantime I'm thinking of a small office here in Vṛndāvana, because Vṛndāvana I'll come back now and then, often, and I'd like to have a small place also to do some writing here. It's a nice atmosphere, quiet, and also they have all the facilities here to do some writing. So I just went to buy a..., got this almirah for the office in Mathurā, Dr. Sharma. In about a month we'll go to Bombay temple and try to furnish the Institute offices and also try to make some contact with the scholars. I'm thinking of holding a short conference in Bombay. It will be like here in Vṛndāvana. Bombay's already many scholars, and right in the middle of the city, so it will be a lot easier in Bombay also. Big cities like Delhi, I think can get many scholars. In Vṛndāvana not so many came, but those few came, they were quite nice, and we learned something from this conference.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was speaking with Śrīla Prabhupāda the other day that it doesn't seem that Vṛndāvana would be a good place to construct an entire building for Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Prabhupāda: Why? There is already a building.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is already a building here. Judging by the reaction... Of course, this is the first meeting, but...
Prabhupāda: Later on...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Later on it may be done, but for now it's better to concentrate in bigger cities, where we're sure of the response.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructs, but he does not take. He wants to remain in māyā and at the same time claim that he is liberated.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, modern science tries to compromise... I'm sorry: Māyāvādīs try to compromise with modern science.
Prabhupāda: There is no other way. They cannot make a solution, so they must try to make a compromise.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Just like when we say that spiritual atom or ātmā is innumerable in numbers, they immediately come up.
Prabhupāda: Sa anantyāya kalpate. As there are many molecules in the sunshine, similarly-yasya prabhā (Bs. 5.40)—by..., in the effulgence of God there are so many molecules, or spiritual spark.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, even it makes stronger now, that within the atom, if there is a jīva or life which is not developed, so it will be many more, innumerable.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). That is the difficulty. They do not want to take śāstra as it is.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to interpret according to their whims.
Śatadhanya: And they want to adjust it according to the time.
Prabhupāda: And that is Māyāvāda. (break) ...superficially Caitanya Mahāprabhu also a Māyāvādī.
| Page Title: | Try to make (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 17 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=68, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 68 |