Transfer (Conversations 1976 - 1977)

Expressions researched:
"transfer" |"transferal" |"transference" |"transferral" |"transferred" |"transferring" |"transfers"

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 20, 1976, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sand, yes, yes. Yesterday morning.

Prabhupāda: I knew it, that they were preparing some sand, because Dr. Bose had a bottle factory. So he was melting the sand. Therefore I asked him. You cannot manufacture anything. You simply collect the ingredients given by God and you can transfer into some other form. You cannot manufacture. This building is also the same way. You have got the cement, the wood, the iron. Wherefrom you have got that? It is Kṛṣṇa's property. So those who are manufacturing or constructing big, big houses for their living, they are simply eating their sinful activities. Ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). We are also... They can say that "You are also con..." But we are not doing it for ourself. It is for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore karma and bhakti apparently looks the same activity, but one is for Kṛṣṇa, another is for one's personal use. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpāḥ. What is that verse? You know? Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. Hm? What is that book? Oh. Today there is no fog, or there is, that side, fog. (break) ...all convinced that our only business is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Huh? That is required. We have no other business. "We" means we human beings. We have no other business.

Morning Walk -- January 21, 1976, Mayapura:

Sudāmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these workers are coming.

Prabhupāda: Ghosh wanted to give us land that side for making a path to the Ganges.

Jayapatākā: Sell us.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. So we have got a plan beginning from this gate up to the Ganges. If we get land we can do that. (break) Foundation stone in Nellore can be transferred to Madras?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's what I'm going to do.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Madras is far better place than Nellore. (break) ...if we take charity from such fallen woman, then we have to share his sinful activity. Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should be careful from whom we accept charity?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But our Kṛṣṇa can eat even fire. If there is forest fire, Kṛṣṇa can eat. Unless He is able to eat others' sinful reaction, how He says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66)? He is capable; otherwise how He can say like that?

Śāstrījī: Sva-rakṣita rakṣati yo hi garbhe.(?)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- February 3, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: And Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). It doesn't matter whether one is gṛhastha or a sannyāsī. (Bengali) (break)...all big, big men, he was present. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another twenty thousand dollars was transferred. (break)

Prabhupāda: He cannot complain. There is money; there is men; now you have to complete. You cannot say, "For this purpose, it..." No. (break) ...Mādhava Mahārāja, you can say that "Have you seen ever twenty thousand at a time?" And I am bringing daily twenty thousand. Twenty thousand dollars. Not money..., rupees, but dollars. "Have you seen twenty thousand dollars at a time?" (break) Detroit temple, you know? Jagadīśa? Are you going to negotiate.

Jagadīśa: Where is this?

Prabhupāda: Detroit, the temple.

Morning Walk -- March 13, 1976, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: (break) ...can get?

Mahāṁsa: Yes, as soon as they can... Either one decision is that "Yes, you can keep the whole 600 acres." And the other decision is "No, you have to... We will confiscate. You can only keep 250." As soon as that decision is made, I will get the document for transferring the trust deeds.

Yaśodānandana: One advantage of the land there, of the soil in Andhra Pradesh, that it's very good for the sugarcane, and that fruit called sitaphala(?) grows very nicely in that area.

Mahāṁsa: It grows wild there. And out of the 600 acres, there's about 200 acres which is very fertile, and the other area is kind of dry. So it is fertile. So we would invest lot of money on cultivating all year round. So if we get 250 acres, then we'll get the good area.

Yadubara: We can choose our own land?

Madhudviṣa: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: So that...

Rādhāvallabha: There will be a second rail on this other side, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We will put that up today.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...now the visitors?

Rādhāvallabha: Just a few. Their sign just got up last night, so no one has seen the sign yet. Mostly devotees are coming to see it so far.

Morning Walk -- March 25, 1976, Delhi:

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhīmasena, I was speaking to him two days ago. He says that he'll turn over that temple to us. He wants to meet you, so I'm going to call him to come and see you.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a big talker, but I was flattering him, and I said, "If you transfer it over to..." (laughter) He said, "I'll do it when Prabhupāda comes." So I'll tell him to come and see you today and.... I told him if he transfers it over to us, then we can build better on the top. He has already built something downstairs, and we can make it a very beautiful temple.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll call it Bhīmasena.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He wants to become famous, so I said, "Everybody will know that you built a temple there."

Prabhupāda: So it is good idea.

Room Conversation -- April 22, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Everyone can be devotee.... It is a question to understand that "I am not this body." That is beginning. So a businessman can try to understand, a lawyer can try to understand, or a philosopher can try to under.... Everyone can do that. The real point is, first of all try to understand that you are not this body. So where is the hampering, becoming a businessman or family man or this or that? There is no hampering. We are trained up from the very beginning of our life by our parents. We got the opportunity. And businessman, no businessman, it doesn't matter. Ahaituky apratihatā yayātmā suprasīdati. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo... (SB 1.2.6). Find out this verse. Ahaituky apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa conscious is unhampered by anything material. It does not mean that because you are a businessman you cannot be Kṛṣṇa conscious. No. That is not. You may be whatever you are, but you can become Kṛṣṇa conscious at the same time. (break) (devotees offer obeisances) (background talking) So it is not the superexcellency of English language. It is subject matter. Formerly they used to speak in Sanskrit. Therefore it is recorded in Sanskrit language. It can be transferred to any language. The thoughts are there. That is real point. Just like we are translating the thoughts in English, in Spanish, in Portuguese, in French. The real thing is the thought, not the language. But in Sanskrit language you'll find very, very high thoughts. That is because it is very old language.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That depends on the particular man, what kind of flavor he wants. That is another thing. But there are different varieties of incense. Generally we use rose flavor, sandalwood flavor. We offer to the Deity room to keep the atmosphere very favorable. Originally in India it was dhūpa. They used to put in the fire some flavored hulls, and it was very nice. That has been transferred into now stick incense.

Mr. Dixon: The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded...

Prabhupāda: No, vegetable, vegetable has got life.

Mr. Dixon: Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables?

Prabhupāda: No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad-gītā... You find out this verse. Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Kṛṣṇa in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat?

Room Conversation -- May 4, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: From the very beginning I was asking to open restaurant and farm. Produce ghee in the farm and send to the restaurant, and make nice samosā, kachori preparation, and there will be no scarcity of money. And if you organize in this way, your whole country will be transferred into Kṛṣṇa conscious country. Whole country. So, what about your China program?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we went to New York to meet with Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja's father, and he was very helpful. We approached him in a frank way, and he immediately got the help of his office. He's the president of this Far East American Council.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And not only China, this is for all of Asia. It includes as.... Some of the persons belonging to it are the chairman of Coca-Cola, the Bankers Trust Company first vice president, all of the big banks, Bank of America senior vice president, First National City Bank vice president, all of these men.

Prabhupāda: So you can contract with all big, big men.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Then you are.... As soon as you say "making research," then you are not perfect. Don't say that you are scientist. You are student. Don't say that you are scientist. And you are declaring, "There is no authority, nothing." Why do you speak all this nonsense? Because you are not scientist. You are making research. That's all right. When you complete your research—you come to the conclusion—then call yourself as scientist. Why, as a student, neophyte, you are claiming as "scientist"? Why misleading people? You do not know anything, how things are going on, and you are claiming you are scientist. Our point is, "Don't do this, misleading propaganda. You are not scientist. We protest against this false propaganda. Why you are making.... You do not know anything. You cannot solve any problem, major problem, so why you are claiming scientist? Stop this as a gentleman." (break) And there is the soul within the body, and when the soul is gone, transferred to another body, it is dead. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). One who is actually scientist, he is not surprised. He knows the soul has transferred to another body. That's all. That is scientist. (break) ...real scientist, not a rascal like you. We don't give.... (break) You cannot act. We accept Kṛṣṇa as scientist because He explains. You cannot explain. How we can accept you as scientist? You are rascal. Up till now, nobody was able to explain—simply vague. How we can accept these vague explanation as scientist? And daily changing, every year new theories. And I have to accept you scientist? Kṛṣṇa said tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13) five thousand years ago. It was known very well, and it is going on. That is science. You cannot give any solution, you are changing your ideas and theories every year, and we have to accept you as scientist? (break) ...speaking something, and I have to accept him as scientist? Madman, crazy fellow, saying something today, saying something other next day.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: That is another tradition. First of all, as soon as you feel necessity, the object is there.

Devotee (4): They say that necessity should not be God, but that it should be transferred to man.

Prabhupāda: I am not talking of God. I say as soon as you feel necessity, the object is there.

Devotee (5): That necessity is our mistake. That is our insecurity.

Prabhupāda: So.... (break) ...that is mistake, then you are rascal, that's all. Mistake is committed by rascal. So you are rascal. If you commit mistake then you are rascal. Then don't talk, stop talking. (everyone laughs) Who is going to hear a rascal? (indistinct) (break) ...he is hungry, there is no necessity of food? Who's that rascal that says "No, there is no necessity of food"? He's feeling hungry, he wants to eat something, and if he says "No, there is no necessity of food," then is he not rascal? And if you say "Now we are feeling the necessity of food, but that is my mistake," is that answer?

Devotee (1): They're feeling that some people have the necessity for God, but actually...

Prabhupāda: Why? That is the question. Why some people have? That means some people intelligent, some people rascals. That's all. This is wrong.

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: What is that paraphernalia? Who are asking?

Devotee: Who asked me? I'm asking you which is more important.

Prabhupāda: I'll have to .... If you want to give some money, you transfer to the Bank of America, account number 1606.

Rāmeśvara: The Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust Fund? Oh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And let me know that "I've transferred so much money."

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then I will do it.

Jagannātha: The Deity pūjā has been improving in Vṛndāvana. Right now Nitāi is the head pūjārī there.

Prabhupāda: Then it's all right?

Jagannātha: And he is making many improvements.

Prabhupāda: No. He can, all of you can if you like.

Garden Conversation -- June 8, 1976, Los Angeles:

Rāmeśvara: They say it cannot be proven...

Prabhupāda: It is proven.

Rāmeśvara: ...by observation.

Prabhupāda: It is observation. That is, a child is growing to another body. So the soul of the child is transferred to another body. What more proof he wants?

Rāmeśvara: There's no visible evidence of the soul.

Prabhupāda: This is visible. Your child, a baby, is on the lap, and after one year, he has got a different body. The old, the old body, on the lap, is finished. Now he is walking. It is another body. Why it is not visible?

Rāmeśvara: They say all matter goes through the stage of development and destruction.

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, this is to be answered, that this child, when he was born he was very small, lying on the lap of the mother. Now he's jumping. Now that body which was lying on the lap of the mother is no more existing. He has got another body which is jumping. But the mother knows that "It is my same child." Therefore the same soul is there; the body has changed.

Room Conversation -- June 10, 1976, Los Angeles:

Rādhā-vallabha: They can create fragrance: simply the bad smell of their bodies.

Prabhupāda: "In future." They're competing with God, and without being success, still: "I am God." What kind of God you are? And foolish men have no sense; they accept such rascals as God. They do not see what is God. How beautiful flowers, how nice arrangement. You cannot manufacture even one fiber, and still you deny God. Mūḍha. He's speaking, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10), "Under My supervision everything is being done." And you have got experience that unless one supervises, nothing can be done very nicely. So these things are being done under some expert supervision. This part is green and this part it is red. Two colors are being transferred, transmitted. The flavor is not here, but here. What is this arrangement? There is no brain?

Hṛdayānanda: Superintelligence.

Prabhupāda: And still the rascals say there is no God.

Morning Walk Conversation -- June 20, 1976, Toronto:

Satsvarūpa: The brāhmaṇa was supposed to be learned in the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. And he said, "These are all...," what is called? Mythology. Why mythology? Why do you think God like you? God is all-powerful; He can do anything. That is real faith. That means you have no faith. "If God can do which tallies with my activities, then I shall believe." What you are? Nonsense. This is their general argument. How we can believe this? And why not believe this? You are seeing so many wonderful things. I gave this example to another man, that there is a coconut tree. Now find out where is the pipe and pumping so that the water is pushed. Show me. You have no idea that such a high height, how water is going there. And full of water. How the water is transferred there? Show me the pipe and pump. You have got the idea, that with pipe and pump we can raise the water. Where is that pipe and pump? Show me. Every day, every moment, we are seeing so many wonderful things. How you are thinking.... "I am Dr. Frog. Pacific Ocean may be four feet. All right, five feet. Make compromise, ten feet." (laughter) Rascal. If you think for many millions of years, then you'll have no solution. Panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyo (Bs. 5.34). It is not possible in that way. They have no idea of God.

Garden Conversation -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "One has to rise therefore above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. This is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desire since time immemorial, but he has to change that conception."

Prabhupāda: That is material desire, how to become master. From different types, he's trying to become master. Just like in the morning the dogs are barking. He's also master, thinking "Why you are coming here?" Whatever little power he's got, he's asserting his mastership: "Don't come here." The same mentality. Then?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The best change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here."

Prabhupāda: This is the authoritative source, that you are not master, you are servant. Cultivate this knowledge. Don't try to become a master, falsely. That will never be successful. Remain servant of Kṛṣṇa, you'll be happy. That is the business of spiritual master. He gives the right information; therefore he is respected so much, because he does not cheat. "You can become master, even God you can become"—this is cheating. The real spiritual master says that "You can never become master. You are always servant." And therefore he's worshiped. He gives the right information. Therefore he is honored so, because he does not cheat. The so-called spiritual master is cheating, that "You take this mantra and give me some money and you become God." This cheating is going on. Spiritual master is to be worshiped. Why? Because he does not cheat. He gives the right information. That is his credit. Guruṣu nara-mati. Therefore one should not take guru as ordinary human being. Ordinary human being, he'll cheat you, or he'll give some information, he's cheating. But a guru, real guru, he'll not cheat you. Therefore he should be worshiped as good... God does not cheat you.

'Life Comes From Life' Slideshow Discussions -- July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "As stated in the last chapter, after suffering different kinds of hellish conditions, a man comes again to the human form of body. The same topic is continued in this chapter. In order to give a particular type of human form to a person who has already suffered hellish life, the soul is transferred to the semina of a man who is just suitable to become his father. During sexual intercourse, the soul is transferred through the semina of the father into the mother's womb in order to produce a particular type of body. This process is applicable to all embodied living entities, but it is especially mentioned for the man who has transferred to the Andha-tāmisra hell. After suffering there, when he who has had many types of hellish bodies, like those of dogs and hogs, is to come again to the human form, he is given the chance to take his birth in the same type of body from which he degraded himself to hell. Everything is done by the supervision of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Material nature supplies the body, but it does so under the direction of the Supersoul. It is said in Bhagavad-gītā that a living entity is wandering in this material world on a chariot made by material nature. The Supreme Lord, as Supersoul, is always present with the individual soul. He directs material nature to supply a particular type of body to the individual soul according to the result of his work, and the material nature supplies it. Here one word, retaḥ-kaṇāśrayaḥ, is very significant because it indicates that it is not the semina of the man that creates life within the womb of a woman; rather, the living entity, the soul, takes shelter in a particle of semina and is then pushed into the womb of a woman. Then the body develops. There is no possibility of creating a living entity without the presence of the soul, simply by sexual intercourse."

Prabhupāda: This is outside. This is not the combination of the solution. The soul is coming from outside. The same theory. It is not the solution which is creating life.

'Life Comes From Life' Slideshow Discussions -- July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now this experiment, another interpretation of these material scientists is that they claim that this experiment disproved the vital theory. But on other hand, actually, the opposite is true, that he proved that there is a vital theory, rather, that spirit must be there. That was actually proved by this experiment also. But the mentality of these scientists are so demoniac that they twist the truth around... (break) RNA is a big molecule and that is actually transferred from this DNA molecule. DNA molecule, they call it the master molecule from which everything comes, all the molecules. Now if we see this carefully, we can see at every step that there is a specific direction and information without which this whole machinery will break down.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Find out this verse. Vedaiś ca sarvair... So "If you want to acquire knowledge how these molecules are working, so you must know it is coming from Me, the direction is coming from Me." You are waiting, wherefrom this direction is coming. Kṛṣṇa says "This direction is coming from Me." Mattaḥ, "from Me." Then the Absolute Truth, it is recognized.

'Life Comes From Life' Slideshow Discussions -- July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this is actually the first step of protein synthesis. In order to make proteins, this messenger RNA has to be transcribed from this DNA molecule. In the next step you'll see the final step for protein synthesis. Now there are also RNA's—they are called transfer RNA, those white-colored, white and yellow-colored things. (laughter) Each of them has to bring a specific amino acid, coded to a specific code, three base codes, base pair. Now each of them has to bring a specific amino acid and to put it together in a very specific manner. They cannot scramble. Because if it scrambles there's not going to be...

Prabhupāda: Again mistake, again mistake.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So it cannot happen.

Prabhupāda: Just rightly. So much direction is there, perfect.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So like that, then, when the..., once they bring these amino acids one by one, then they stick together, and that also process is done by enzymes. There are so many steps involved, and very intricate. It is actually done by a catalyst called enzymes. Enzymes are also very big molecules, actually they are also proteins, and in each step the enzymes are so specific that they do only one specific function just for the right purpose, and once this is done then slowly the protein separates at the right time and with the proper length and proper number of amino acids. In this way, actually we can prove in every case that...

Prabhupāda: Perfect direction.

'Life Comes From Life' Slideshow Discussions -- July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that's why we want to bring up this point that...

Prabhupāda: You can bring up. This is the position. Just like there are apartments are already there. Sometimes I am coming here, sometimes going there, but this is the position. I'm not fixed up. Similarly, living entity, as soon as he changes his mind, the apartment is ready. Here is your position. Again he changes, "Here, here is your position." They are already there. Not that for him especially being created. The species are already there. As soon as he fixes himself up particular species, he's transferred, daiva-netreṇa karmaṇā. He gets a similar body, "Come on, here, take this body." Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). These are explained. So he's transmigrating, he's not fixed up. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). He gets, by his desire, he gets a particular body. Then after some time he changes to another body.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That we understand, only your Divine Grace's disciples, but not everyone.

Prabhupāda: Then you try to make understand others that this is the position.

'Life Comes From Life' Slideshow Discussions -- July 3, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: There is no question of evolution. It is already there. This is a wrong theory. The monkey is there, the man is there. The soul is going from monkey to man. It is not the evolution. Just like you have got apartment, ten rupees, five rupees, twenty rupees, thirty rupees, like that. Now, as you pay, "Come on, here." There is no question of evolution. It is already there. Jantur dehopapattaye. These dehas, these bodies, are already there. So immediately it develops a particular type of desire, "Yes, come here, sit down." First class, second class, third class, fourth class is already there. As you pay, "Yes, come here." It is not evolving; it is already there. He is transferred from one apartment to another. This has to be convinced. We don't find that monkey's body became a human body. That is not in the experience, anyone. The monkey is there, the human being is there. But the soul is going from monkey's body to human's body, or monkey's body to another body. That is by superior administration. Their theory is the body is evolving and some body is missing. Nothing is missing. Every body is there. The soul is being transferred from one body to another. Asatims caturam caiva laksams jīva jātiṣu.(?) Jāti means the form of the body. So the form of the body is already there, and the living entity is being transferred from one body to another. This is called transmigration. We have come here, not that that room developed. This room is here, that room is there, but I am transferring. Because they have no idea of soul, they are thinking that this nice room, now transform into this room or this room, transform... This is foolishness. A civil man transferred into jail—not that his civil house becomes jail. They are thinking wrongly like that, Darwin's theory. Body becoming changed. No. The different types of bodies are already there. The living entity is being transferred from one body to another. Just try to explain. So evolution you take that this apartment is better than that apartment, that apartment better than, and a living entity's going from one after another. So this is evolution. That you are now getting salary, one thousand dollar, now you get fifteen hundred dollars. So according to your qualification, you are getting.

Evening Darsana -- July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā

yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām

(BG 9.25)

If you want to transfer yourself to other planetary system, you can go. You can go to the higher planetary system, which is resided by the demigods, devas, yānti deva-vratā devān; and you can go to other planets, Pitṛloka; or you can remain here as you like; and you can go to the planet where God is there. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. So this human life, you can make your selection. After all, you have to change your body, that is compulsory. Nobody can remain here with this body, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). And we have to change our body. So we can make our selection, where we shall go next, either in the higher planetary system or the Pitṛloka or we shall remain here or we can go even back to home, back to Godhead. So we must prepare ourselves for that purpose. Then next life we can go wherever we like. But anywhere within this material world, there are four principles, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. There is birth, there is death, there is old age and disease. But if you go to the spiritual kingdom, there is no more such things, no birth, no death, no disease, no old age. Now we can make our selection. And if we do not make our selection, if we live like cats and dogs, without any responsibility, then again we become in the category of cats and dogs. Mūḍha, janmani janmani (BG 16.20), life after life, they remain like animals, without any knowledge.

Evening Darsana -- July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, I was discussing. Yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can go to the higher planetary system where the devas, the demigods live. Their duration of life is very, very big. Our six months is equal to one day there. Such ten thousands of years they live. But they die. It is not permanent. But the duration of life is very big, the standard of life is very high. These are the advantages. But there is death, old age, disease; birth, death, old age and disease. But if you transfer yourself in the spiritual kingdom, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), then you don't get any more material birth there. That is because we are eternal, we living entities. We do not die. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). After giving up this body we do not die actually; we accept another body.

Bill Sauer: I believe the spirit of life lives on totally in this marvelous planet earth, but I feel the spirit has to be carried and nurtured and improved in the body. So I feel we have to carry the bodies, the material bodies, to the other planets to allow the spiritualism to live there also.

Evening Darsana -- July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: That is in the material world. If you want to stay in the material, then you change the material body just suitable for a particular place, atmosphere. But we have got our spiritual body. That spiritual body, without any material covering, you can transfer to the spiritual world.

Bill Sauer: You believe you can transmit that to other planets?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to transfer, because we are giving up this body. So you must accept another body. So either in this planet or in other planets or as human being or less than human being... There are 8,400,000 types of body. You have to accept one of them according to your karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). How the next body is developed, that is depending on our work. If we work like demigod, then we go and get the body of demigod. And if we work like dog, then we get the body of a dog. Nature's. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). According to activity and association of the modes of material nature, we get, up and down, different varieties of body. Some of them are low grade, some of them are high grade. That depends on our association with the modes of nature. Nature's work is going on. Just like if we contaminate some particular germs of disease, that disease will develop and we have to suffer. Similarly, by our contamination or association with the guṇa, qualities of nature... There are three qualities, goodness, passion and ignorance. So we have to know how to associate. If we associate with the goodness, then we are elevated to the higher planetary system, deva. And if we associate with passion, then in the middle, just like human being. And if we associate with ignorance, then go down like animal, trees, plants, like that.

Evening Darsana -- July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Bill Sauer: How is the spirit held in the system till it finds a new body?

Prabhupāda: Body, that I have explained, that you are associating with some modes of material nature. So according to that association, you'll get next body. Just like, I have already explained.

Bill Sauer: Is that immediately after one dies you transfer to another body, or later?

Prabhupāda: Yes, body is changing every moment. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā lesson.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

Every body... Just like a child is changing his body to boyhood, boy is changing his body to youthhood, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. The young man is becoming old man. Similarly, when the body is no more endurable, then you get another body. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This body is being destroyed, we are not destroyed. We living entities, we are nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. We are eternal. The proof is given that the child is growing, getting the boy's body. That means the living entity is there, he has changed bodies. When a child is grown to become a boy, the father, mother do not think that "My child is no more existing." He knows "My child is existing, but in a different body." This is common sense. So we shall exist, we existed in the past, we are existing now and we shall exist in the future, but in a different body.

Room Conversation -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore:

Rūpānuga: And then it was decorated by Ambujākṣa, who is an artist.

Prabhupāda: Woman should be expert in cooking. That is their natural tendency. They should be educated how to cook nicely, how to please the husband, how to take care of the children. This is Vedic civilization. In the beginning a woman, childhood, she's trained up by the mother. Then as soon as she is married, formerly, child-marriage, so she's transferred to the care of mother-in-law. There she is trained up. Then she becomes very good housewife, takes care of household affairs, husband, children, and home becomes happy. What is this nonsense, divorce? There is no such thing in the Vedic civilization, divorce. You must accept whatever God has given you as husband or wife, you must. They had no thinking even, idea of divorce. One may not agree with the husband. That is natural. Sometimes we do not agree. But there is no question of divorce. When this divorce system was introduced?

Rūpānuga: Comparatively recent. Because for many years the Catholic Church forbade it. When did it begin?

Pradyumna: Henry the Eighth, the King of England.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Yes, unless they do that, what is the use? What is the use of your big, big talking?

Vipina: He's thinking that sometime they'll do it in the future.

Prabhupāda: Therefore he should not become scientist. The chicken is doing it within five days. (laughter) You transfer your doctorate, laureate to the chicken. You are cheating others. Give the title to the chicken.

Guest (2): If and when Kṛṣṇa wants the scientists to come up with the answer, then is when, only when they'll have the answer.

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa has already given to the chicken. (laughter) He's so unfortunate that Kṛṣṇa is not giving him the intelligence. He's so unfortunate. But the fortunate chicken has already got the intelligence. So at least the chicken is fortunate than these so-called scientists. That is our conclusion. He's so unfortunate that he doesn't get the fortune of the chicken. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25). He's a mūḍha, rascal. That's all. He's claiming something which is impossible. That is mūḍha. If somebody, if a child, sometimes childish nature, "Mother, give me that moon." It is possible mother can give the moon to the child? So mother cheats him. She gives him a mirror, "You see, here is a mirror, moon here." That's all. But is that moon? So a child may be satisfied with this class of moon, but one who is sane man, his father will not be satisfied. It is impossible. We give this challenge to any scientist, that "You are unnecessarily, uselessly working to produce life from chemicals." That is our challenge. "You cannot do it." (Hindi) So we challenge the so-called scientists that "You rascal, you cannot do it." It is not possible.

Arrival Comments in Car to Temple -- July 9, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: I hear, Māyāpur Project? You have not been sending money?

Rāmeśvara: Not yet.

Prabhupāda: They want money. Gargamuni has written.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they've been calling for money regularly, but we have not been able to send them any.

Rāmeśvara: I met with Gurukṛpā Swami, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he has just transferred from the Japanese collections 125,000 dollars. He is writing one letter.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) not all at a time. Management is not very good. So...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Little by little.

Prabhupāda: One lakh will be sufficient.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: For carrying on the work.

Prabhupāda: Things are going on here nice?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're gradually improving. Actually everything has just begun here; it's by no means complete. You'll see that all of the work is just in progress. It will take a while to make it very nice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Manage nicely. Kṛṣṇa is giving us everything, there is no scarcity. If we simply sincerely work, Kṛṣṇa will give us intelligence, everything. By His mercy everything is available. That is Kṛṣṇa—He can give you anything. That Brooklyn Bridge, I think? That iron bridge?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there is a Brooklyn Bridge, but we're not going over it.

Evening Darsana -- July 13, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Human life is meant for making a solution of all material problems.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That they do not know. That point is missing that there is another life which is eternal, blissful, life of knowledge. But they have no idea that we can eternally live without birth, death, old age, and disease. There is no information, neither education, but there is a life very... If you get eternal life, then the tribulations of material life no longer are there: birth, death, old age, and disease. But they have no idea or information because there is no intelligent man to understand that there is another life which is eternal, and life of bliss and knowledge. There is no information. That is the defect of the modern civilization, they are living like animals. No intelligence. So actually human life is meant for purifying our existential condition so that we may not be subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease. That they are missing. They do not know, neither there is any education, nor university. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to educate people on that line. It is not a sentimental religious system, it is an educational system. How one can transfer himself to eternal blissful life. Satsvarūpa is there?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Evening Darsana -- July 13, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary... A boy, a girl or a man, a woman in relationship of love but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa or God. Premā pum-artho mahān, that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest (indistinct) when we come on the loving platform with God, then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the result was that he was killed by his own men, by his country men. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31), a little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love. So if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone. Just like we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is out of love for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we would have sat down at home and love Kṛṣṇa. Why you are trying to spread this love exchange to others? Because I know or we know that here in this material world, the so-called love exchange is frustrating, and people are being frustrated. So let him love Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be successful. This is our mission. Everyone has got loving propensity. So this child has now love for his mother, for the mother has got... But as soon as the child will grow, the love is finished, he will love somebody else. When he becomes young man, his love is transferred to somebody else. So here the so-called love is not permanent, but when you love Kṛṣṇa it is permanent exchange of loving humor or mellow. So that is required. Sai this called sai-eva. Sai(?) means permanent it will never end. You'll relish loving mellows eternal.

Evening Darsana -- July 13, 1976, New York:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, could it be said that in a society where stress is placed on developing this understanding of God, people would naturally become disinclined for these so-called modern activities of sense gratification?

Prabhupāda: That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animal, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That you do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to different bodies. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization.

Morning Walk -- July 13, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Just see, how rascal they are.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That should disprove all of their theories.

Prabhupāda: They speak all... That the egg will take millions of years and the chicken is bringing within five days. So why these rascals do not transfer their doctorate title to the chicken (laughter) instead of bluffing other rascals that "We are doctorate"? They should be ashamed to keep their doctorate. "Now let us transfer to the chicken; within five days there is life." Huh? What do you think? Am I right or wrong?

Hari-śauri: I am sure you are right.

Prabhupāda: The chicken is bringing from the egg life within five days, and they are calculating millions of years. Such rascals are passing as scientists. If chemical is the basis of life, just make some experiment, take the chemical and make a small egg and put into the incubator and bring life. Why they do not, hmm? It will take millions of years, and the chicken is bringing within five days?

Bali-mardana: They say in a few years they will do it.

Prabhupāda: Why few years? Rascaldom. Dr. Chicken is doing in five days, so why you enjoy this title? You give up. You be ashamed. You are shameless, therefore you are talking all this nonsense. You have no human sense also.

Interview with Newsday Newspaper -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Interviewer: How is that spiritual dimension realized?

Prabhupāda: One has to realize that he's not this body, he's spirit soul, and the spirit soul is within the body, and after annihilation of this body, the spirit soul is transferred to another body. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of life. And we have to transmigrate to any one of these forms. So today I am in American body or Indian body, very comfortably situated, but at the time of death my particular mentality will transfer me to a particular type of body. Exactly like if a man infects some contagious disease he has to develop that disease. It is very subtle material laws. So similarly, we are composed of gross body and subtle body. The gross body is made of this earth, water, air, fire, ether, like this. And the subtle body is made of mind, intelligence and ego. And the spirit soul is within that outward gross and subtle bodies. When the gross body is annihilated, the subtle body, mind, carries the soul to a similar body as he was thinking at the time of death. It is, example is given... Just like the flavor of a rose garden is carried by the air or the bad odor of a filthy place is also carried by the air, similarly, mind, intelligence carries me to a particular type of body as I was absorbed in thought at the time of death.

Interview with Newsday Newspaper -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Interviewer: What is the ultimate?

Prabhupāda: Ultimate is that you are spirit soul, you are being materially engrossed, you are creating different situations and you are being transferred to different bodies. That is different situations.

Interviewer: But for what purpose and to what end? What's the final end?

Prabhupāda: Yes, so final, that unless you are spiritually realized, you do not know what is the final end. The final end is that we are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are in contact with this material atmosphere. So our final aim is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Unless we know this and we practice how to return back again to Godhead, then we have to remain within this material world, transmigrating from one body to another. Therefore the human intelligence is meant for understanding the spiritual identity and the goal of life and act accordingly. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is an educational movement to enlighten the people from gross ignorance to the highest enlightenment of spiritual understanding.

Morning Walk -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Why deported?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, because they are Hare Kṛṣṇas. There's one man, he says, in Osaka that's a big demon, one policeman who simply makes his business to try and find out the devotees. So that one man arrested three of them in one day. Anyway he's just taking another thirty-five thousand out and he's immediately transferring today ten thousand to Gargamuni and he's arranging a bank account jointly with Rāmeśvara in Los Angeles for his other money. Rāmeśvara will put the money in fixed deposit and monthly transfer ten thousand dollars for construction. Gurukṛpā was happy to know that the money could be used for that. He says he's studying, chanting and working very hard.

Prabhupāda: They are trying to drive us away. How to counteract it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we have to do some positive, very subtle positive preaching. I suggested that—if you recall—I suggested that a cultural center should be opened there on the basis of showing dolls, showing movies, restaurant,

Prabhupāda: Books.

Evening Darsana -- August 9, 1976, Tehran:

Parivrājakācārya: We can always tell by what people are serving, what they really are loving. If they are serving just their body, then no matter what they are saying, we know...

Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Officially, God, God, God, but result is dog. Love is there, love is... That is natural. I want to love. Everyone wants to love. But the, unless he loves God, he'll never be happy. So simply talking of love, and if the love is simply transferred to dog, then where is the love of God? So such kind of talking of called śrama eva hi kevalam. It is simply waste of time and energy. You must practically come to the platform how to love God. So it is a great science, and it is available for everyone to understand and act. It is a great science, one can take advantage. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement, no. It is a science, how to understand God, how to love Him.

Ali: Shouldn't there be a balance between physical existence and spiritual existence? Like between body and spirit?

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, you must have spiritual understanding, then spiritual study. If you have no spiritual understanding, then why spiritual study? All these scientists, they are trying to understand the spirit soul by material, on material platform. Therefore they are being misled. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, to distinguish between matter and spirit it is negatively described: nainaṁ chindanti śāstrāṇi. Find out. The spirit soul is there which cannot be cut into pieces by any instrument.

Arrival Conversation -- August 13, 1976, Bombay:

Indian boy: I come from Tanzania, Bazalof.

Hari-śauri: That's in Africa.

Indian boy: Yes. And we are a life member of ISKCON. You know Navayogendra dāsa of Nairobi? Now he is transferred in Mombassa.

Prabhupāda: Navayogendra, yes.

Indian boy: Yes, he came there between 1975 or 1974 and he made us the member. He's now in Mombassa.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So when you have come here?

Hari-śauri: When have you come here?

Indian boy: Here? We just came for a holiday trip.

Prabhupāda: Where you are staying?

Indian boy: In Malat.(?)

Prabhupāda: So come tomorrow at five.

Room Conversation -- August 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya, "Whatever nonsense you have learned-forget." Then what to do? Kāku-śataṁ bravīmi sakalam eva vihāya dūrād gaurāṅga-candra-caraṇe kurutānurāgam. "You just become devotee of Lord Caitanya. I am flattering you, I am falling down on your feet"—this is preaching. And what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). And if you do that, then what is the result? Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). If one is doing like that, Kṛṣṇa immediately recognizes, "Oh, you are the best friend of Mine." So if you are recognized by Kṛṣṇa, then what you want more? You are undergoing so much austerities and... To be recognized by God. And God says that "Immediately I recognize you." Whom? One who is doing this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (Bg 18.68). Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). Immediately. You may be a fool, you may be rascal, you may be illiterate. But if you do this, immediately Kṛṣṇa recognizes. Kṛṣṇa never said that unless one is a big grammarian, big scientist, big politician, big engineer, big doctor, then I can do it. No. Simply one who does this. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam (Bg 18.68). What is that paramaṁ guhyam? Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). "Give up all nonsense. Surrender to Me." This is paramaṁ guhyam. And they are simply manufacturing nonsense. So the time is very bad, but nature's law is very strict. We may defy it, "There is no God, there is no next birth, there is no nothing." We may say like that, but when death will come, you cannot say anything. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). Bas, all your talkings, all your intelligence taken away. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Immediately transferred to another body. Daiva-netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). "No, no, I am Prime Minister!" "No, you must become a dog." Immediately. How can you protest? You cannot protest. You have acted like dog, just become a dog. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Just like your medical science, you have infected the disease, you must suffer disease. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ, guṇa-saṅgaḥ. There's infection.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1976, Hyderabad:

Jayapatākā: You say she was kicked out from the trusteeship. She's not part of that any more.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The other trustees said that "You are simply spending. What you are doing?" After all, when she was wife of the governor she had some prestige. Otherwise... She invited me in that Juhu, she has got a house in Juhu. So I told her, "Yes, I can purchase your press. Fifty lakhs is not a very big amount for me, but what shall I do? We are printing offset." That is the cause... Because nowadays printing is done by offset press, she lost all business. People got big, big contract, they got cheaper and better quality. Why they should stick to that press? And government contract was taken from them, big, huge business they lost. Tata Press, they have got offset. Government transferred there. And that was her main support. It was a nice, good press. Practically best press in Bombay, Associated Press. But because it is letter press... Now to maintain the letter press is very costly.

Gargamuni: Yes. You have to get new type every year, and that is very costly.

Prabhupāda: Nowadays there is no need of letters, I mean to say...

Jayapatākā: Type.

Prabhupāda: Type.

Room Conversation -- August 25, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: That is body, all body.

Indian man: That is body. How long you are going to do that?

Prabhupāda: So long you are not a devotee.

Indian man: I mean even if I am a devotee, I go on doing some sins...

Prabhupāda: You become devotee, then immediately transfer to the nitya-yuktā upāsate.

Indian man: Yes, I become a devotee, a true devotee...

Prabhupāda: When you become a perfect devotee then you are transferred to the eternal world and your engagement is upāsana eternally.

Indian man: The eternal world. What is that eternal world?

Prabhupāda: That you do not know? You read, study? Have you studied Bhagavad-gītā? Do you know that there is an eternal world? There is an eternal world? Do you know that?

Indian man: Our śāstras say eternal world...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you...?

Indian man: Man is eternal world by going and enjoying there in mokṣa there.

Prabhupāda: So that is mokṣa. When you go to the eternal world, that is mokṣa. That is mokṣa.

Garden Conversation -- September 7, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Thank you. You can go and play. You cannot understand.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Go and play. "In London, George Harrison donated a big castle which is now called Bhaktivedanta Manor. We have purchased many buildings and converted them to temples from the sale of our books. What is wrong if a portion of Bhaktivedanta Book Trust sales are transferred to India for construction of temples? Fifty percent of Bhaktivedanta Book Trust income is spent for further publishing and the other fifty percent is spent to build temples all over the world. In fact, Blitz should appreciate this because Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda's books are bringing valuable overseas currency into the country without any cost to the Indian public. Point seven. Blitz: In Bombay they have put up a temple with a barbed fence around it. ISKCON There is no barbed wire around the temple. We invite Blitz to show us the barbed wire." There's no barbed wire. "Point eight. Blitz: Already rupees twelve lakhs have been spent on an unfinished temple in Vṛndāvana. ISKCON: Blitz does not know that the Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma temple in Vṛndāvana was completed and officially inaugurated by Dr. Chenna Reddy, governor of U.P., in April, 1975." They are saying the temple is still being made. "Point nine. Blitz: Their major center seems to be in Orissa, the land of princes and paupers. They have built a center close to an atomic energy commission complex. ISKCON: How foolish. Our major center is not in Orissa, but in Śrīdhāma Māyāpur in West Bengal. Māyāpur is the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, an incarnation of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. We are coming in Lord Caitanya's disciplic succession and therefore we want to develop Māyāpur and make this an international center. In Orissa, we do have two devotees living in three huts in Bhuvaneśvara. They are living on a piece of land that was donated by one of our life members from Calcutta. If at all it is near the Atomic Energy Commission, it is only by coincidence."

Prabhupāda: It was donated by the late governor and Central Minister. Nityananda Kananda. (?)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He donated it. Okay, I'll write down his name them. "Gaura-Govinda Swami, a 45 year old retired teacher from Orissa is in charge of our Bhuvaneśvara center." So they'll know. "Point ten..."

Prabhupāda: So that land was donated by a prominent man. Nityananda Kananda (?) was central government minister and later on governor of Gujarat. And he often comes to see me in Calcutta.

Room Conversation -- December 7, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: There is a... He will be in charge of growing this, and this way do everything. And you go to Bhogilal or call. Bring him here and I'll transfer there. I have no objection. Immediately. There is no need of painting.

Mahāṁśa: No need of painting.

Prabhupāda: No. Why there is use? We can manage there. Bhogilal may come, and he may be given here or wherever possible.

Mahāṁśa: I'll ask the carpenter to try and fix those doors by this evening in Bhogilal Patel's room. The inside doors are already finished. Only those curved doors take time. So I'll...

Prabhupāda: So you have made, cut fashion?

Mahāṁśa: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Fashionable?

Mahāṁśa: Yes, it looks a little nice.

Prabhupāda: All right. So that room, if it is done, it is all right. If not, this room and that room. That's all. Better bring him. He'll be very useful.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Out of three, two. Out of three, any two will do. That's all.

Mahāṁśa: And amount which will be given from Your Divine Grace will be a loan towards the trust which will be paid back later on.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyāpur account you take. Ask them to transfer to this account. And when you want to pay...

Mahāṁśa: Yes, then they transfer

Prabhupāda: That's all. That will be... Do that. So open account.

Haṁsadūta: Also that lakh of rupees which I gave him last year.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is his.

Haṁsadūta: The temple should pay it.

Mahāṁśa: Yes, that one lakh rupees I will pay from the four and a half lakhs. You told me to put everything into your account. So should I put the four and a half lakhs into your account or should I put one lakh in this account and then three and a half...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, give him. That's all.

Press Conference -- December 16, 1976, Hyderabad:

Mahāṁśa: Kanaipali. And the lands were originally in the Venkateshvara Gorakshini Trust, and they have transferred these lands to ISKCON Venkateshvara Trust under the chairmanship of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. So our interest here is to... This area, the whole area here, is very dry. Although there is potency of..., there is potential for tapping water, it has been left dry and unused just like so much land all over. You can see. There is so much land which is unused, vacant, just like this. So we have been given this piece of land. We want to set an example of how such wasted land can be, with proper management and organization, it can be made usable to grow food, abundant food grains and fruits and to feed unlimited...

Prabhupāda: And offer them to Kṛṣṇa and distribute prasādam.

Mahāṁśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is our mission. We are already giving prasādam daily in the evening. There is no question of making profit.

Guest (5): So anyone can come and live here.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Morning Walk -- December 27, 1976, Bombay:

Guest (1): That bhakti is a tapa itself. That bhakti is amongst the tapas.

Prabhupāda: Yes, bhakti means tapasya. Just like they are in the bhakti line. They are doing tapasya. They are rising early in the morning, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, observing maṅgala-ārati, no meat-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, so many things. It is tapasya. Whole thing is tapasya, tapaḥ, because by this tapasya the contamination of the soul will be cured. Then, if he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he is transferred to the spiritual world. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). He does not come again to accept the material body, and he permanently lives in the spiritual world. That is perfection. The modern civilization, they do not know all these things. They are misguiding that "You earn to your best extent. Work very hard like hogs." And there is advertisement "Work hard. The next (?)." They are pulling one trailer, rickshaw, still, their leaders are advising, "Work hard. Work still more hard." A human being is pulling on trailer and rickshaw, and still hard work. And that rascal does not know that this hard work like hogs and dogs will not make the solution. But they are enthusing, "Yes, work hard. Be stout and strong, as if becoming stout and strong will save him. That's not possible.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 2, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Killing business.

Dr. Patel: They have killed them at random. There is a disease called sleeping sickness. This sleeping sickness is common in the wild game and wild animals and antelopes in Africa. That we found out. And from there a type of fly called tsetse fly, he bites them. Just like the flies bite those animals, then when you go in the jungle they bite you. When they bite you they transfer the germ from animal to you, and you get the sleeping sickness. Now the latest sleeping sickness medicine is dependable, I mean nobody can die. But to arrest this disease in Central Africa, they'll kill all the game. Still they have not been able to arrest this sleeping sickness.

Prabhupāda: This is only theory; therefore I don't believe that. Simply theory.

Dr. Patel: It's more common in the Congo, in northern Rhodesia, part of Rhodesia and Uganda.

Prabhupāda: When they pour water... (end)

Conversation with Yogi Amrit Desai of Kripalu Ashram (PA USA) -- January 2, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Soul. Spiritual body is now covered with the material body. So anything material, that will not exist. So body is finished; then he has to find new body. Just like the dress is old; it is finished, you take another dress. And when you haven't got to take dress, or this material body, and you remain in your spiritual body, that is called mukti. That can be achieved only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). If you practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness then it is possible; otherwise not. Tyaktvā deham. Everyone has to give up because this body will be old, and one has to give it up. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9), he doesn't accept any more material body. Then? What does he...? He's finished? No, he's not finished. Mām eti. He becomes eligible to go back home back to Godhead, and there he dances with Kṛṣṇa. That is real mukti. Muktir hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. Anyathā rūpam. Now this rūpa is not spiritual, it is material. And mukti means when he gives up this material body and no more accepts any material body, he is transferred to the spiritual world to play with Kṛṣṇa, to dance with Kṛṣṇa, to talk with Kṛṣṇa. That is real... Paramaṁ siddhi. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). (break) And so long one is the material things, he... The lowest stage is the karmīs, the little higher stage, jñānī, and little higher stage, yogi. And the highest stage? Bhakti-yogī.

Letter to Russian -- January 5, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: In Russian language?

Jagadīśa: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: "Easy Journey to Other Planets. So this is a different culture, how to go to other planetary system, how to transfer the soul from one body to another. In other planets there are also living entities. One can transfer himself, after giving up this body, to anywhere he likes without any help of the sputnik, and without the help of the sputnik or any flying machine. This is the mystic system unknown to the world, but it is authorized in the Vedas, original culture of the human civilization."

Hari-śauri: It's on the tape. I'm recording it too.

Prabhupāda: So, "A preliminary booklet is presented herewith to your good self. Kindly read it carefully and let me know your reaction. We are prepared to answer all intricate questions in this subject." In this way present.

Roof Conversation -- January 5, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Bengali is not at all very difficult.

Mr. Gupta: No, not at all. Once upon a time I could read and write. But it's just out of touch.

Prabhupāda: The Calcutta Marwaris, they speak very fluently. Yes.

Mr. Gupta: Fluently. Being in railways I've had about eight cross-country transfers. Rajkot, Ajmer, Bombay, Ahmedabad, Lohar(?). So I know as much of Gujarati and Marwari too.

Prabhupāda: Rajastani?

Mr. Gupta: Rajastani. Hindi is the mother tongue for Rajastani.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hindi is understood everywhere. (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā, what you have learned?

Mr. Gupta: The only thing that I have been able to learn is we... I was told so, quite.(?) By keeping our mind and heart strict, we should do our work as belonging to best āśrama as best as possible. But the human beings tend to twist "as best as possible" in their own way. And that... When the realization comes... (break)

Prabhupāda: Do you realize that the modern civilization is misguided? (break) ...is the quintessence of Bhagavad-gītā. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Glāniḥ. The people are misguided. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. He's Dr. Patel. He's Mr. Gupta, a railway officer. He arranged for our tickets.

Morning Walk -- January 6, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The water is not yet there?

Mahāṁsa: One building is finished. Now the pump has to be gotten for that. The second building, we didn't have... I wasn't over there. I had gone to South India to collect some money. And then, when I came back, the people had gone away because there was no money to be paid to them.

Prabhupāda: Why? I have already transferred?

Mahāṁsa: That came just five days back. So now we'll be working on it full swing because we have some money.

Prabhupāda: So the bank has transferred?

Mahāṁsa: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So the prospect is nice?

Mahāṁsa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: People are coming?

Mahāṁsa: When I came... When I went to the South, to down South, there was about 270 people.

Prabhupāda: Coming.

Morning Walk -- January 6, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Mantrey is an all-in-all.

Girirāja: He's not all-in-all, but he can make their life miserable. Because what he does is, if they don't satisfy him so he raises the issue of the corporation. He says this man is not doing his work properly, he should be transferred. So...

Prabhupāda: What he is for them?

Girirāja: He is their municipal councillor. He is the representative for this area in the municipal corporation, elected. So actually this came up before and at that time we met the municipal commissioner that they are trying to put this condition. So he agreed that this should be a, you know, decided by the court or by some third party and not, he will not do anything to change the status quo by forcing us. So we have to put that in the letter. And (break) ...hitch. Not a hitch exactly but there's this urban land ceiling that anyone who has more than 500 square yards property, that comes under the ceiling. So we are exempt because we are a charitable trust and apart from that, in the final plan, most of the land will be built up, it won't be vacant. But in order to get the sanction, we have to get either an N.O.C. (No Objection Certificate) that we are exempt from the ceiling or an exemption to get the N.O.C. So we have to meet some higher official. So I have to finalise it but I'm supposed to contact the architect and we have to go and see about this. Actually the management is so bad there that they have made this requirement that any new building, you have to get N.O.C. regarding the land ceiling. But so far they have not given one N.O.C. for land ceiling because they are not yet decided what is the policy to give the N.O.C. So they simply are piling up the applications until they decide their policy. So first we will try to get exemption that we don't require this N.O.C. Then if we fail in that then I suppose we have to meet the minister and ask him to give us the N.O.C.

Prabhupāda: So why not meet the minister?

Girirāja: Huh?

Prabhupāda: Why not meet the minister?

Girirāja: Yes.

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Now the money which we have transferred, so that is... You are three signatures.

Haṁsadūta: We are three signatures, yes.

Prabhupāda: So...

Haṁsadūta: From that money, nothing has been spent yet except five thousand rupees which went for the first well which was dug, which is not particularly good. They went to a 105 feet, and the well is suitable for about three acres of land. Now, since just this small trip that I made from Hyderabad to Bombay, I can understand the reason that nothing is growing in that part. It's because there's no water. Even if you dig, you don't get much water. That big square well, which is already there right behind the gośālā, there is no water in it. It does not fill up. It doesn't fill up. It's not the kind of well you pump out and then it fills up.

Guest (6) (Indian man): I could not go because without discussing this farm in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: All right, you take rest.

Haṁsadūta: I'm not tired. I can... (break) The signatures were just a... (break)

Guest (6): Prabhu was telling about the Bombay farm now... (break)

Prabhupāda: First of all we must attract people, then give them prasāda. If you have no power to attract them, then how..., what is the position? Program means men will do. If there is no men, who will do this program?

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Tilaka, dvādaśa-tilaka. You just go and learn. (break) What is that? (break) Otherwise there is no death. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Actually there is no death. This forgetfulness is death. We have forgotten: "Who was our father, who was our mother, where I was born?" That is death. And otherwise I am the soul, continuing. Just like in childhood so many things we did, but we have forgotten. The forgetfulness is death. The more one forgets, the more one is dead. Otherwise there is no death. Na jāyate na mriyate vā: "Never takes birth, never dies." Then what is death? Death is forgetfulness. So you can begin now. (break) ...big, big buildings, the same spirit as karmīs are doing. But this desire to construct very big building, when transferred for Kṛṣṇa, that is bhakti. So we have got this tendency, everyone, to possess money, to have very big buildings and so on, so on. You do it for Kṛṣṇa. Then it will be bhakti. Otherwise karma. And karma means to be bound up by the laws of nature. So? What is...? (break)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...parāyanaḥ sudurlabhaḥ praśāntātmā koṭiṣv api mahā-mune. "O great sage, out of many millions of materially liberated people who are free from ignorance, and out of many millions of siddhas who have merely attained perfection, there's hardly one pure devotee of Nārāyaṇa. Only such a devotee is actually completely satisfied and peaceful."

Prabhupāda: This is devotee. It is not so easy. But we are giving chance to everyone to come to that position. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But otherwise it is very, very... Muktānām. It begins from the mukta, liberated. Liberated means no more material anxiety.

Morning Discussion about Kumbhamela -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Hardwar. "Door to Hari." Dwar means gate.

Gurudāsa: Someone invited me last year to Hardwar for the Kumbha, and I said, "Why should I go to the door when I live in the house?" I was in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: We are not interested with the door. You are doormen, dvar-men. We are inmates. That Vidyāpati has sung, kata catur anana, mari mari yāvata. Catur anana means Brahma. They also die. And kata means "how many." (pause) So what is the amount of the bank that he transferred?

Devotee (1): Twenty-five thousand rupees.

Prabhupāda: But I heard, it was thirty-five?

Devotee (1): There was originally three fixed deposits. One of them was broken six months ago. We used it, BBT. So there was two remaining left for twenty-five. Originally there was thirty-six, and then one was broken. That's already been accounted for.

Prabhupāda: And our Madras center is now closed?

Devotee (1): Yes. There's no center there now. Mahamsa Swami, he's sending two men there regularly to help set...

Prabhupāda: Collect.

Morning Darsana and Room Conversation Ramkrishna Bajaj and friends -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Ah! Tamasa... "Don't remain in the darkness; come to the light." So this is the Vedic injunction. But we don't take advantage of the instruction. We think that "If I can make one table from a ordinary wooden plank, that is advancement." This is technology. This nice polished table is a transformation of the crude wooden plank. So if a crude wooden plank is transferred into nice table, we see: "Oh, this is advancement." What is actual benefit? I can do without this table. But we have taken: "This is advancement. Transforming the form of an element into another, that is advancement." So asate vilāsa. This is asat, this wood, either in crude form or in transferred form. So I am taking credit because a crude wood has been turned into a table. So that is my vilāsa. So sat saṅga chāḍi kāinu asate vilāsa. So I am now bound up. I can become a very nice carpenter. Does it mean that I am self-realized? If you have learned the art of turning crude wood into a table, nice table, you may get the credit of becoming a nice carpenter; that does not mean you are self-realized. They are taking credit of this turning crude wood into nice table, and they're thinking that "Our life is successful." This is going on. And the real technology, that "I am not this body; I have been put into this condition, and I am transmigrating from one body to another"—there is no such knowledge. For the temporary.... (break) ...temporary thing, flickering thing, like children. Children is very busy on the beach, making sand palaces, and he's very happy. So our position is like that. But we should be intelligent enough that "There is our real life, permanent life, not this temporary life," that "This life is temporary. There is another life." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "This śarīra is not..." Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. So many things.... The Bhagavad-gītā is full of information, but we don't take advantage. We are so unfortunate. And it is our country. This is Indian culture. We have given up this. (Hindi) Gandhiji, he was supposed to be a great student of Bhagavad-gītā. And the such a big āśrama, Sevagrama. Where is Bhagavad-gītā arcana? Boliye.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Hari-śauri: It was just before...

Prabhupāda: They... It cannot die. There is no question of death. Simply changing the body.

Hari-śauri: But they didn't actually get to the point of transferral to another body.

Rāmeśvara: No. What's being described in this journal is that a man leaves his gross body, and then he exists in a very subtle state.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is subtle body.

Rāmeśvara: And then he goes back to the same gross body.

Prabhupāda: Not exactly the same, but another. This body is useless. By accident he loses. Mutilated, it cannot be accepted.

Rāmeśvara: But somehow they revive him. Somehow he is revived.

Prabhupāda: Revived means the body was in order.

Rāmeśvara: Temporarily he left.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, if the body is too much mutilated, it is impossible.

Morning Room Conversation -- February 16, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: George Harrison.

Hari-śauri: ...Introduction from George Harrison.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And I have acknowledged his contribution and blessed him as good boy. And because he served Kṛṣṇa, then later on he became inclined to give us that house.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Has that house been transferred actually yet?

Prabhupāda: Never mind what is the... We are using it. If he says "Go out," we shall go out. What is that? We are not after property.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he'll never say that.

Prabhupāda: No. I don't think he's so mean-minded. No. He's not mean-minded. He's a good boy. I've studied.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ravi Shankar has taken advantage of him. These two pūjārīs, the two brothers...

Prabhupāda: They're ideal.

Morning Room Conversation -- February 16, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has brought them here in Māyāpur. Previously they were advanced, all of you. You are simply born because the mission was to be started. Just like in Yadu-vaṁśa Kṛṣṇa ordered all the devotee demigods to "Go and take birth there to help Me." Similarly, you are also... You were born in Europe, America, to help this. Otherwise you were devotees in you past lives. I have explained that in my recent writings. The purport was mām eti: goes to Kṛṣṇa where His pastime is going on, and then they are transferred to the original. So all the devotees picked up and they were placed together where Kṛṣṇa is having His pastimes in either of these innumerable universes. He's going on. Just the moving... The sun is moving-little, little, little. So Kṛṣṇa's pastimes go on—this universe, that universe, that universe, that universe. In some universe He's present. In all universes present, that is called nitya-līlā. So those who are advanced, perfect devotees, first of all they are sent there and then, further trained up, they enter. Mām eti. Just like after passing the administration examination he's made one assistant of some magistrate, and then gradually he'll be promoted up to the high-court judge.

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Why he said dhīra, sober, cool-headed? These rascals are cats and dogs. They are not civilized, even big, big professors, they say, "Swami, after finishing this body, everything is finished." Has he got brain? And they're Communist leader. Identifying with this body. This is the actual platform of that body, dehātma-buddhiḥ. And they're described in the śāstra as no better than the asses. So next point will be that where you think beyond your capacity, we begin our education from there, seeing the... Our education begins from that. First of all try to understand what is spirit. Then it will... And our whole process is how to transfer one person from the material platform to the spiritual. Therefore they are thinking "brainwash." The fools, they cannot understand where our education begins. Where they have failed, we begin from there. Where they are disappointed, that "This cannot be answered," so on, we begin from there. So who is intelligent? We are intelligent or they are? We are trying to bring man from this gross misunderstanding, misidentification platform, to come to the spiritual platform. Then he understands what is the spiritual kingdom, the spiritual life that is eternal, blissful. Then he will understand. And that is all new to these dull-headed rascals. And they are thinking... It is the same, different subject matter.

Room Conversation -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Ādi-keśava: In the temples we should always recommend the gṛhasthas to worship the Deity.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Just like our Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, it was established... This temple was established by Jīva Gosvāmī. He was brahmacārī. So how these gosvāmīs, they are worshiping? He had no sons. It was... The temple was established by him, but the worship was transferred to the gṛhasthas bhakta. So they are doing by generation. All these Vṛndāvana temples, Govindajī temple, Rādhā-Ramaṇa temple, Rādhā-Dāmodara. Rādhā-Ramaṇa temple, he was also brahmacārī, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa. He did not marry. Jīva Gosvāmī was brahmacārī. Sanātana Gosvāmī and Rūpa Gosvāmī, they sannyāsīs. So how these gṛhasthas got this sevā? They were disciples, gṛhasthas. So gṛhastha disciples were meant for worshiping Deity. And others, they are meant for preaching. This is the primary principle. So if you are engaged in preaching... Deity worship, it must be done in scheduled time, this time, this time, this time. Then that is very difficult for you. Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not do that. He was traveling alone, preaching, preaching. So it will be great burden to carry Deity. But in preaching work, when you are many, you are carrying Deity in the bus. That is good, there are others, some nice engage, that is temple life. But personally if you carry some Deity, it will be troublesome. It will be hampering your preaching work.

Room Conversation -- February 27, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. This system is not good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they have permission from the Reserve Bank to keep this extension open up to one month. I asked him, "How long will it take until you get the actual branch?" They said, "Somewhere between one and two months." So if we open an account, it's guaranteed that you will be able to draw money here up to one month's time. By then, either they'll open the branch, and if they don't, then whatever funds you have here will be transferred to your Calcutta account. And as soon as the branch is open, they will immediately transfer back here as account number one.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. All right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So this requires your signature and an initial deposit has to be made to open it.

Prabhupāda: So I shall do it. I'm talking with him.

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Hari-śauri: Yeah, I feel that... When I've done a little preaching, as soon as I speak I can feel that everything becomes clear.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is giving you an opportunity to become more advanced. Take to that.

Hari-śauri: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: You are intelligent. You have understood. Now try to transfer knowledge to the innocent persons. There must be father. That you are convinced?

Hari-śauri: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So you cannot deny, "There is no God." That is not possible. The earth is the mother. They say "mother country," "mother earth." And everything is coming out from the earth. Beginning from the aquatic animals, grass, they are coming from material elements, either from water or from earth. That we can see. And they are coming from fire also, but we cannot see. But they are. It is common sense. If life can come from water, fire... Fire is also one of the elements, five elements. So from fire also... Therefore it is said, nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Because it is coming from fire, therefore fire cannot harm the living entity. So mother is there, children are there. Where is the father? This is the logic. And the father is coming personally, "Yes, I am father." Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). Then where is the chance for denying the existence of father? No. There is no chance, there is no logic.

Room Conversation -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Whatever that State Bank kept that money and gave that. So there is no fault of the State Bank. State Bank has no fault.

Guest (1): No, but they can't give so much money in one day to the party. Particularly after the election debacle. That money will go out of India and transfer into foreign funds. Because there are all brokers here. Suppose you have got hundred rupees. You can exchange pounds and get it in London. Anyone can do it. So this money was used for that purpose. If it was known that elections are lost and this money will not be utilized in India, they would not have given.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: America gave a lot of money to the Congress Party because Sanjay Gandhi was very friendly with America, with agent of many American companies.

Prabhupāda: America was against Indira?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. In the last one year they had changed. Because of Sanjay. One good thing about Sanjay Gandhi was he was completely anti-Communist. He was pro-American and pro cap-free society. So India's relation with Russia was getting loose and with America was getting tight. Because of Sanjay Gandhi. So that was one good thing.

Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). What is the goal of life, they do not know. Svārtha-gatim. Everyone says, "I must see first of all my self-interest." But he does not know what is self-interest. That is not unnatural. If I say that "I must see first of all myself," you cannot blame me, because everyone does that. But you must know what is your svārtha-gatim. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). So it is in paper published that they have been forbidden to go out?

Room Conversation with Ram Jethmalani (Parliament Member) -- April 16, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has to work very hard on behalf of the disciple...

Prabhupāda: No. To accept his sinful reaction.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He does that?

Prabhupāda: It is not easy job to become a spiritual master. Yes. Then when it is overloaded, you'll suffer.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa transfers the sinful reaction unto the spiritual master from the disciple.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why? Is it because there will be such a heavy...?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says... That is the principle. This is, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). "You have to take all the sinful reactions." This is the principle, that Kṛṣṇa is God. He can nullify everything. But I am not God. When it is overloaded, I have to suffer. This is the principle that the Christian idea that Christ takes.

Morning Talk -- April 25, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Bhopal is better than Bihar.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better. Very dry. He is known to everyone for many hundreds of miles around. He's a very well known man because he's...

Prabhupāda: No, he is a sincere worker. Therefore he approached me. From Vṛndāvana, Gwalior is very near, within hundred miles. So Viśvambhara can transfer, come, come there to..., to see. Let us first of all settle up. My, this farming program, theoretically there is no comparison. But practically people are accustomed in different way. To bring them to the program it will take some time. Otherwise my program is assured happiness, happiness assurance, if they get... Have your own food grown. Keep cows. Have your own crops. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That goes for all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Don't go to the city. That is my determination. The hellish city. In city nobody has got the opportunity for living in such comfortable place. It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy that we have got. Otherwise if you go to the Bombay city, even here, these pigeon holes, three small rooms... It is not expected that everyone will be able to live in such palatial building. That is not possible. Even they have no bathroom in Bombay. In the room, in the corner, there is a tap, and you have to go to the public well, latrine. This is the system. So whole family will take advantage of the corner tap and then have to go to public latrine. There is no bathroom.

Morning Conversation -- April 29, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He had tried to attack you?

Prabhupāda: No, he couldn't act. Gone crazy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Taking LSD.

Prabhupāda: So immediately I transferred myself to Jergens, keeping my goods at Mukunda's place, Michael. Then I searched out that 26 Second Avenue. From going to 26 Second Avenue taking this risk of two hundred dollars, then I became little relieved. Before that, I was simply vagabond. That was the first shelter. Then this Kīrtanānanda, Hayagrīva, Satsvarūpa, Umāpati, they guided. Brahmānanda. Some other boys also came, and they left.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Stryadhīśa.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Stryadhīśa. So after getting that shelter, I began to grow. Everything was very precarious condition-vagabond. I was selling some books. I thought that "This boy will be trained up" when I got that place. He invited me to "Come to my loft." It was very big loft. I was holding class, collecting ten dollars. Then he was not paying rent. He gave me the charge of paying rent. So Kṛṣṇa was giving by collecting. It was on the top. Still, people were coming. Great story. Never mind. Now we... From my part, whatever is possible. Now you take care. That is my request. Don't spoil it. Now it is up to you. My, this ailment... I can pass away at any moment. My health is not good. I am old man. It is not surprising. Now you GBC, young boys, all, American, expert, you have got all intelligence, resources, so don't spoil. Let the movements go forward more and more. Now you have got nice places, filled with devotees. Don't be anxious for me. That, Kṛṣṇa will take. And even if I go, where is the harm? Old man. I have given my ideas and direction in my books. People appreciate. I think from my side I have done everything. Is it not? Do you think or not?

Conversation Pieces -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Pay on protest.

Mahāṁśa: On protest.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mahāṁśa: That... Yes, the advocate said if we go to the higher court, we will get a transfer.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pay immediately and protest. They'll return immediately. Pay on protest.

Mahāṁśa: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Very good. Hm.

Mahāṁśa: Actually now, in the monsoons, we're going to take up a lot of cultivation. This is watermelon juice.

Prabhupāda: So give it to the Deity and distribute prasādam.

Mahāṁśa: Yes. It got a little spoiled while traveling. The tomatoes were squashed, but some of them are ripe.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It doesn't matter. So what is your news?

Indian devotee (1): So we also gained a farm. We have started cultivating now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa is giving you good chance. Develop farm and have temple. Go on enthusiastically.

Conversation Pieces -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Rāmeśvara: This is based on the BBT Trust document that you wrote many years ago, the same idea almost. "I, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Ācārya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, disciple of Oṁ Viṣṇupāda 108 Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja Prabhupāda, and we, the members of the Bureau of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, hereby give and transfer the properties and all the property rights incidental thereto, as hereinafter described, to the following persons as trustees in trust for purposes hereinafter stated and to be administered in accordance with the provisions hereinafter set forth." And there are five different trusts. The first one is for Māyāpur, and the proposed trustees are Jayapatākā Mahārāja, Bhavānanda Mahārāja and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. The second one is for Bombay, and the proposed trustees are Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, Girirāja and Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. The third one is for Vṛndāvana, and the proposed trustees are Akṣayānanda Swami, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa and Viśvambhara.

Prabhupāda: Viśvambhara is not our regular disciple.

Jayapatākā: Shouldn't be included.

Prabhupāda: Then he has to accept sannyāsa from me.

Jayatīrtha: Jaya.

Conversation Pieces -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Inventory.

Rāmeśvara: Inventory, yes, inventory. Then "Section 2: Name of the Trust. This trust shall be known by the name..." So for each trust there's a different name. For Māyāpur it is proposed, "Śrī Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir Trust." For Bombay, "Śrī-Śrī-Rādhā-Rāsa-Vihārījī Temple Trust," for Vṛndāvana, "Śrī-Śrī-Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Mandir Trust," and that will include the Gurukula. For Bhuvaneśvara, "Śrī-Śrī-Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Bhuvaneśvara Trust." It goes on to say, "In so far as possible, the trustees shall conduct the trust activities in that name. Section 3: The Purpose of the Trust. This trust is created and shall be operated exclusively for fulfilling the aims and objects of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as per the memorandum of association. ISKCON is registered as a society under the Society Act of 1860, and is registered as a public charitable trust. We direct that no part of this trust shall inure to the benefit of any private individual, and no part of the activities of this trust shall consist of participating in or intervening in any political campaign on behalf of any candidate for public office." Then "Section 4: The Use of the Trust. Irrevocably, the properties, the temple and the Deities thereupon and all other holdings of the trust shall never be mortgaged, borrowed against, sold, transferred..."

Prabhupāda: Stole?

Rāmeśvara: "Sold."

Prabhupāda: Sold.

GBC Meets with Srila Prabhupada -- May 28, 1977, Vrndavana:

Girirāja: Yeah. And then for the BBT money the decision to give out loan should be unanimously approved by all three of us, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, Gopāla and myself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: Then the accounts in your personal name... We thought that those funds could be transferred to the Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Fund, just as you suggested, and just keep our own account, how it is spent in terms of your desire.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can transfer at any moment.

Girirāja: And then for the fixed deposits, the interest for your family members, that we would just leave them in your name, as it's mentioned in the will, and throughout their life they will get the income.

Prabhupāda: That we shall do. I shall... How to do it... For the time being you haven't got to bother.

Girirāja: No.

Prabhupāda: So that I shall pay.

Discussions -- June 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Girirāja: So "...shall never be mortgaged, borrowed against, sold, transferred or in any way encumbered, disposed of or alienated."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the Indian properties.

Prabhupāda: Indian property is devāyatana bhavana.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Write that down, dev...

Prabhupāda: Devāyatana.(?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Devatra.

Prabhupāda: Devāyatana. Hm?

Jayapatākā: Devāyatana means trust. Devāyatana means trust.

Prabhupāda: All right, don't make if it cannot be so worded(?).

Girirāja: "This direction is irrevocable.

Talk with Svarupa Damodara -- June 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That is very natural. Just like in a child there is life. But it is not... Consciousness is not developed. That does not mean there is no life. That you can see, daily affair. The same child, when he's grown up or changed body, his activities will change. So where is the difference? Difference—when he was a childish body, the consciousness was not developed, and when he's transferred in another body, his consciousness will develop. This is the point. The ant, there is life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's life in any material...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we wanted to avoid that...

Prabhupāda: In the physical combination of atoms is combination of life also.

Room Conversation With Son (Vrindavan De) -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Um hm. (aside:) You can go out. (break) ...but still, I have given you chance. So you want simply... Just like a widow. We... But we want that you may not be disturbed. Go ahead. Do business and have big building. Everyone's constructing big, big building, Marwaris. Why you cannot do? You have been given all chance. Yogināṁ puruṣam upaiti lakṣmīm. Unless one is dedicated, a yogi, very endeavoring... So we have showed a yogi endeavoring. Seventy years old, I was here in Vṛndāvana, and I came. For ten years I worked! Now see. All over the world I have got hundreds of buildings like this. I am the same man. At least one hundred temples we have only by working ten years. So there must be capacity, there must be endeavor, there must be good fortune. Then everything will be... It is not that you simply desire and it will drop from the sky. That is not possible. Hm? Arjuna fought the Battle of Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa never advised him, "No, I am your friend. I shall do everything. You sit down and sleep." "You have to fight!" And Kṛṣṇa is merciful. He gives him... The two things required. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayāt tat-tat-karma-pravart... If you have no capacity, you cannot expect to become very rich or learned, or very... That is not possible. It is not your capacity. Just like within this land there is gold, but you have to dig it. That is mine. And if you smell, "Ah, there is gold here," will you get gold? You are fortunate. You have got a place. Here is gold. But you have to dig it. You have to work. "No, I shall smell, and gold will come." That is not... So don't be worried. You'll be allowed to stay here. But I cannot transfer the property to your mother's name. Then your brother will spoil. And otherwise you are... I am not going to lease them.

Room Conversation -- October 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Where is that letter?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I have them... It's attached in that file with the fixed deposit receipts.

Prabhupāda: What it is written there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It gives them specific instruction to immediately transfer these two fixed deposits on the date of maturity to the Central Bank of India, Gwalior Bank, north branch, to the account of Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.

Prabhupāda: No. What do they say?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they also acknowledge having received it, having received the two fixed deposit receipts. The bank manager stamped it, dated it, signature. We gave them the receipts signed, so they acknowledged having received it.

Prabhupāda: But they have not issued any letter, "Yes, it will be done"?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, their acknowledgement of the letter should constitute that. I got them to acknowledge that they received the original. The fact that they would take the receipt of the fixed deposits indicates that they have to do the needful, as we have instructed them. And I have no doubt that they will do that. When they came to see you, they accepted that they would have to do that, because the money was sent to them, the four lakhs.

Prabhupāda: So other banking business going on? Huh?

Akṣayānanda: Generally everything is all right, yes.

Room Conversation -- October 3, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Because they are harassing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because... The reason... We are afraid of their psychology that they think that our money is now theirs. And that is giving us fear.

Prabhupāda: They're thinking like that. We cannot freely have our money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually it's only with the greatest difficulty that you were able to transfer this fixed deposits. Four times they came to you, and for even a half hour to one hour at a time went on and on, explaining to Prabhupāda why he should not do this. Really the best thing is that, I mean, if I can give this humble advice, is that someone like Girirāja should deal with them instead of... Because I feel, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they take advantage of you when they talk with you, and that makes me feel very bad to see.

Prabhupāda: Then tell Girirāja. Ask Girirāja to take...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because they see that you're not that well, and they also know that you're so merciful. And you're also a local Brajabāsī in a way. Therefore they're always against any of us taking any participation. It's the funniest thing. I explained something to Girirāja. He's been dealing with so many legal things for so long that he's become like a lawyer, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Central Bank is very straightforward.

Room Conversation -- October 3, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: If Girirāja can deal with these men, then let him do it immediately.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Very good. He can, because he thinks legally, and that's how you have to deal with these men. They're actually small time, and they're just harassing us because we're acting in a very gentlemanly way and they're acting in a very ungentlemanly way. Anyway, we're not going to take out our fixed deposits. The ones that are there should be matured. But when they're matured, if we want to transfer them to somewhere else, we should have the freedom to do that and not be bound to have to keep the money there. That's the only point. And we'll be bringing so much money. Your Divine Grace has plans for making Vṛndāvana very much developed. So they should not worry like that. None of our other bankers are worried. They see sometimes we take the money, sometimes we bring money. But because of the way they're dealing, we don't want to bring any money. I'll tell Girirāja to..., if he can deal with this matter, that he should take it up. He wanted to meet them. He said he wanted to see what...

Prabhupāda: Let him meet.

Room Conversation -- October 4, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: What is the advice?

Girirāja: Should we read it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: They just confirmed that they transferred the two amounts, and they gave the date, and they gave that it's transferred to the Central Bank in Bombay and the account number.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were very impressed with Girirāja. I mentioned to Mr. Gupta here that Girirāja's father was the biggest lawyer in Chicago. So they also felt that he was like a lawyer. So they were very impressed by him, and he was dealing with them in a very patient but intelligent way. So they just... Actually they realized more things today, I think, than ever before about the position of our society. They got a little bit more knowledge. And they also revealed more today about how they were thinking 'cause of the way Girirāja was talking with them. I think it was the most... It was a very progressive conversation. They are awaiting a telephone call that we would be going with them to Delhi tomorrow morning.

Prabhupāda: Wrote it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have to call them to confirm that we will be going. Should we utilize the car, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or go in the train?

Prabhupāda: No, you can go by car.

Room Conversation -- October 6, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: And now we have got..., sent four lakhs.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Sent four lakhs?

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda just transferred four lakhs from matured fixed deposits.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To?

Hari-śauri: To Bombay, was it, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Tamāla knows better...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Should we use that four lakhs for printing?

Hari-śauri: For that go-down.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can use it for the go-down, for building that go-down.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, there is no need of keeping in the bank.

Room Conversation -- October 9, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Girirāja? Did not go to the bank?

Girirāja: The bank? Well, yesterday we delivered a letter signed by Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami and myself officially instructing them to transfer the fixed deposits from here to Delhi. So there are a couple of formalities. And so the Delhi manager gave us a note what we have to do. And Tejiyas says that the former chairman of the Punjab Bank is a life member.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Girirāja: So he said that he could even come with us and meet them. So the new chairman, I mean the present chairman, is coming on Tuesday. So I think we'll get all the formalities ready, and then we can go on Tuesday. Today is Sunday, so we couldn't do anything today.

Prabhupāda: So these people have agreed?

Girirāja: The local people? Well, they have not agreed. That's why we felt that we have to meet the chairman. Legally we have every right to transfer the fixed deposit wherever we like, and if the former chairman is with us, then they can't give any false excuses because he knows all the rules. Actually we're not asking for anything special. Otherwise we're... Probably the local people will try to avoid giving it up. But this is our right, and the chairman has to uphold our right as customers of the bank.

Prabhupāda: What is their plea here?

Girirāja: Local people? Well, they will say that there's no reason to transfer the fixed deposits.

Prabhupāda: We have reason.

Room Conversation -- October 9, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So do it. Transfer.

Girirāja: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...to deliver to the banks?

Girirāja: We have the copy of that letter with their stamp that they received it.

Prabhupāda: So what is that copy? What you have written?

Girirāja: Well, we wrote two letters, because the fixed deposits are in the name of ISKCON Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Temple Maintenance. So we said that "We are holding the following fixed deposits in your Vṛndāvana branch," and then we gave the list of the numbers and the amount and when it is due, and we said, "Please arrange to transfer these to your main branch in New Delhi." And then another letter for those in the name of ISKCON Vṛndāvana-Māyāpur Trust. Same contents. So then they wrote back that we should write the same letter addressed to the Vṛndāvana branch and with a copy to them, and we should give the original and the copy to them, and they will present the original to the Vṛndāvana branch and get them to transfer the money. And the second point is that they wanted us to give them the fixed deposit receipts, and they said they would give us a receipt. But we are hesitating to do that, because we are afraid if they give those receipts to the Vṛndāvana branch, then they may keep them. So we want to propose that the Vṛndāvana people should transfer the money and they should prepare a new receipt for the Delhi branch. And when the new receipt is prepared, they can give us the new receipts and we will give them the old receipts.

Prabhupāda: Very good. (break) They should give in writing.

Room Conversation -- October 9, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: What letter they gave?

Girirāja: Well, on our letter... On the copy of our letter they wrote back to us that we should give them a copy of the same letter which we addressed to them, but we should address it to the Vṛndāvana branch. And then they will present that letter to the Vṛndāvana branch and ask them to transfer the money.

Prabhupāda: Well, why don't you do that?

Girirāja: Yes, we're doing that. And the second point is the Delhi office wrote that we should give them the fixed deposit receipts and they will give us a receipt for that. Then they will get those fixed deposit receipts changed over to the New Delhi office, and then they will give us back the certificates and we will give them back the receipt.

Prabhupāda: So there is no problem.

Room Conversation -- October 9, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Don't try to receive payment.

Girirāja: No, no.

Prabhupāda: Just transfer to your Delhi head office.

Girirāja: Yes. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Rāmeśvara Mahārāja has come.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Rāmeśvara: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: How are you?

Rāmeśvara: I'm feeling very well, knowing that you're feeling better.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Rāmeśvara: I was just visiting in Tehran with Ātreya Ṛṣi and Parivrājakācārya Swami. They are successfully preaching to the most important people in that country.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: Actually, just yesterday Parivrājakācārya met the king.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Shah.

Room Conversation -- October 11, 1977, Vrndavana:

Girirāja: I had a very wonderful meeting with the chairman of the bank. And he's ready to do anything to satisfy us and keep our business. So he said that he was going to get rid of the man who is on this counter, Mr. Gupta, and give us some more young, dynamic, cooperative person to be in charge over here. And we completed the formalities for transferring the fixed deposits to the main branch, and he assured me that it was a completely routine transaction and that if the local people tried to do anything to stop it, that he would himself personally see that it went through smoothly. So I gave them the certificates. It was not necessary to sign them. We just gave the certificates, and they gave us a receipt. And they're going to endorse the certificates. So they are payable from New Delhi instead of from Vṛndāvana, and then we can go and collect them. And the chairman also called the assistant general manager. He was also very nice and very sympathetic. So he's going to come on Saturday, and he's going to look into everything, all the difficulties here. And I said that he could bring his family and they could take prasādam. So they're all going to be coming on Saturday at about eleven o'clock. I had submitted a letter with eleven things that we wanted. You know, we want the hours to be regular, we wanted a new person here, we wanted our interest on time—just a list of different things. And he said that there's no problem, and they're just ready to do whatever we want. They gave the impression that they would dismiss any number of people here that were giving us trouble. But I said that I thought that the main person was this Mr. Gupta, and so they said they would replace him. It was very good. But still, even if there are improvements here, I think it's better to keep the fixed deposits in New Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Girirāja: Because they are the responsible people, the big city, cosmopolitan, and these small towns there's always danger.

Prabhupāda: So certificate must be transferred there.

Room Conversation -- October 11, 1977, Vrndavana:

Girirāja: Yes. We've given them the certificates and the letter, and they've taken the responsibility. They're sending the certificates by registered post to the Vṛndāvana people with their instructions to transfer the money to New Delhi. So those will definitely reach here by Saturday when the assistant general manager comes. And if there's any hesitation, the assistant general manager will take care of it when he's here on Saturday. And I would think that by Monday or Tuesday we could get the certificates changed officially. And then, I think, we should have a least one account in their main branch in New Delhi. It would probably be easier to get inward remittances there. And if we want the interest from the fixed deposits to be kept there, we can have an account there for that. And that will keep us in good contact with the head office.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Room Conversation -- October 12, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Magistrate wants my presence?

Jayapatākā: No. It is not required that you talk to him. There's no... Everyone says that there's no case for that. The previous ADM said that actually the person that was doing it is this woman district magistrate. That woman is quite inimical to us. So there's very strong talk that after Durgā Pūjā she'll be transferred. If she's transferred, then our situation would become much better, I hope, by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. She's just trying to harass us, but actually she has no legal scope. Indian Overseas Bank came out, the additional general manager, to Māyāpur, and he's very eager to open up the branch at Māyāpur also, because they have already in Bombay. I think... They have here also? I don't know. But he was eager to open a branch there. They have made us an application. The Central Bank sent a letter, withdrew their application for opening the bank. Right now the Gurukula, they have just finished their examinations. Their examinations were writing an English sentence in Sanskrit and writing Sanskrit in English and similar type tests. They, most of the students got seventy percent on the examination. Then the bigger children went out on saṅkīrtana with the two traveling parties, one to Darjeeling. In Darjeeling they sold seven thousand books in less than ten days. They had very good reception in Darjeeling. And one party is still in Bihar. They did four thousand books.

Prabhupāda: Bengal book.

Room Conversation With Svarupa Damodara -- October 15, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Hm. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...with the bank people. A gentleman has come from Delhi. Girirāja and I are talking with him. We've transferred the receipts there, and we're just completing the formalities.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the bank manager said he was... I think he's one of the top men in the bank. He's completely disgusted—these were his own words—with how they have arranged things here, and he's going to completely redecorate this office, putting in rugs and full furniture and waiting facilities, and make it a first-class office. He says he cannot understand how this has been allowed to go on like this in the name of Punjab Bank. And he's having a new manager brought here who has been trained in Delhi, a younger man who is a little bit more capable of making proper decisions and acting in a nice way. And every single request...

Prabhupāda: But the defect is that here the head manager does not know English.

Room Conversation With Svarupa Damodara -- October 15, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: But the defect is that here the head manager does not know English.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Well, this man, we'll have a little bit more freedom to act. Generally they're going to now rectify all of their mistakes. They feel very sorry. The senior people in the bank feel very sorry for the way in which business has been dealt with towards us, and they're going to transfer... The receipts have already been transferred. We're just finishing up all the formalities. Girirāja was right. The thing which he wanted to do now has been done. It's... The head men in Punjab Bank had no idea of how we were being dealt with locally. And when they were informed, they became very much desirous of rectifying everything, because they feel that we're a very worthy accountant holders with them, and they don't want anything to jeopardize. And we told them, "We have every intention of expanding our facilities here. Simply we want to be dealt with in a proper, normal way." So I think I should return there to finish the discussions. Everything was quite in order, though. It's nothing to worry about.

Prabhupāda: And the manager is not there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, everybody's there.

Prabhupāda: Gupta.

Room Conversation With Svarupa Damodara -- October 15, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Gupta.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gupta's there, and Dugal. They've come twice. They came this afternoon and Girirāja fed them prasādam. They went to the conference hall where we were having prasādam with the scientists. They took full prasādam. The man has come with his wife. He's a devotee.

Prabhupāda: So Gupta is being transferred.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Gupta will no longer be in charge of this local office here. He's the person who has... Frankly speaking, Girirāja found him to be the one who is most harassing. They purposely have not brought him here this evening, I think. He's not here this evening. The chief man from Delhi could understand that this Mr. Gupta was creating a lot of difficulties.

Prabhupāda: And Dugal is here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dugal is here. So we're explaining to him everything, what we want, and they're agreeing to everything.

Prabhupāda: What Gupta said?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He doesn't say anything anymore, because he has been exposed as having harassed us and unnecessarily not giving the proper facilities. He cannot say anything. Dugal says that "Whatever I am told to do by the head office, I must do."

Prabhupāda: So, he is the head office man?

Room Conversation -- October 15, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: Well, he was a little bit upset that we were taking away all the fixed deposits. So the man from the head office told him that he has to win our confidence. Then, when he wins our confidence, we may make new fixed deposit. But right now... I mean, whatever we say, he has to accept.

Prabhupāda: So how much transferred?

Girirāja: Ten lakhs, sixty thousand.

Prabhupāda: To?

Girirāja: To the Parliament Street Main Branch in New Delhi.

Prabhupāda: And before that, four lakhs?

Girirāja: Yes, four lakhs to Central Bank in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: So Dugal is very unhappy, eh?

Girirāja: Well, I mean he feels that he's losing everything. But the man from the head office tried to explain that, you know, "This is the reaction to your activities," and that "If you change your activities in the future, we may bring in more money." Actually we're going to expand and develop our activities more and more. So if they win our confidence, we don't mind giving them any amount of money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He also said that the chairman has taken a personal interest in our Society's accounts and has sent him as an emissary. And he also said that he's coming back in about ten days again. He said, "This time when I come back you will not have any complaints." In other words, he's going to rectify whatever mistakes have been made. (whispering)

Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that "pish pish?" (laughter)

Room Conversation -- October 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Where is Bhakti-caru?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's taking the rāmānuja-vaidya back.

Devotee: He's from Vṛndāvana?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I think from Śrī Raṅgam temple. I haven't talked with him yet. He left very quickly. Śrīla Prabhupāda? One good news, the fixed deposit receipts have been transferred finally. We got them back now endorsed from the head office, so they are officially now with the Parliament Street office. That was Girirāja's very good work. He said he would do this, I remember, and he did it.

Prabhupāda: What is the amount?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Total amount? Total amount is ten lakhs, sixty thousand. It's now transferred. I have the receipts locked as before. And they're duly endorsed.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're endorsed to the head office, Parliament Street, Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Now what you have got?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The fixed deposit slips. The actual receipts. See, but they've been stamped now. They've been handed over. We handed them over to this office here.

Room Conversation -- October 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So, they have issued any covering letter?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More or less a covering letter. I mean we have certain correspondence, but on the receipt itself it says transferred... The whole thing is done pakka. When we gave the receipts to Vṛndāvana branch they signed that they received them. When we gave the letter to the head office originally telling them what we wanted to do, they gave us back in writing, "Take the receipts, give them to the Vṛndāvana branch. They will be transferred, then you will collect them in Delhi." Everything is in writing, documented.

Prabhupāda: And no new receipt issued?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Not a new receipt issued. We wanted a new receipt, but they did not issue a new receipt. I was expecting to get a new receipt, but they didn't give. They simply noted on these receipts.

Prabhupāda: Do you think that is sufficient?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, definitely.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Room Conversation -- October 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So they're going to send a ma...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes. They said that they'd be sending him this coming week. I mean they're quite serious about this. The fact that they have transferred Gupta within twenty-four hours shows that they're quite serious in wanting to please us. The man said it: "We want to please you."

Prabhupāda: Huh? Dugal. What about him?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's a rogue. I said it from the beginning, he's a rogue. Anyway, they couldn't throw the manager out. They had to throw the... That would have been a disgrace. They couldn't do that. This Dugal was president formerly of Hrishikesh for twenty-five years. I mean, how is that to deal with... (talking softly to someone else) Śrīla Prabhupāda, you haven't had anything to drink for awhile. Would you like something? It's been quite awhile since you last took. Upendra is here. He could make something for you.

Prabhupāda: Fruit juice?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fruit juice? Yes. What kind do you have, Upendra, that you could make? Some grape juice? Or do you have that pomegranate? Would you like some pomegranate, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: I did not like that.

Doctor Visit and Conversation -- October 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: City?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Delhi. Because the receipts are being turned over to the head office, so they have to be endorsed there. So he went for that purpose. There's not much more to do now with this Panchashil flat, because we're going to give it. So simply it will be up to Vrindavan to make up the necessary document for transferring it. I think it doesn't even require a big document. Simply a letter on behalf of Your Divine Grace saying that "We give this apartment to you."

Prabhupāda: But one thing, if they can dispose?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they may try and sell it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't want that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but when you give them that, that's what they may do.

Prabhupāda: Then don't give him. Let them live there, but...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So then the question again comes up, which I mentioned to you, that if they're paying corporation taxes and other taxes, then they become the legal tenant, and a tenant does not lose the right of tenancy at his death. His children inherit it.

Prabhupāda:. Well, what is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. So then it's not for their lifetime; it's forever.

Prabhupāda: There is no harm. They cannot mortgage or...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sublet it.

Room Conversation -- October 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: No, laboratory testing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What's laboratory test called?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Pathology?

Bhavānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So his case was transferred to another.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Oh, boy.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One after another.

Bhavānanda: Mixed up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mixed up. His diagnosis was given to someone else. They made a mistake, and then they treated the other person.

Prabhupāda: And he was being treated as tuberculosis.

Room Conversation -- October 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (offers obeisances) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So you think over transferring me to Māyāpur.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, actually it's a great pleasure to take you to different places, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and we certainly never find any difficulty in transporting you. I was wondering that... As Vṛndāvana gets quite cold in the winter, I was just wondering how you would be able to pass the winter here, and I was thinking that Māyāpur was a very natural place to go. Now, just now, it is very nice here in Vṛndāvana. Probably for two or three more weeks it's the topmost time. But shortly it will be getting cold.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: November.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And at that time it might be the ideal opportunity.

Prabhupāda: Why not do that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think you're finding any difficulty here, are you?

Prabhupāda: No. Māyāpur is still more open.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Room Conversation -- October 24, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This country you can't do these things like that. So...

Brahmānanda: Then directly from Dum Dum to Māyāpur?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Then we go direct from Dum Dum to Māyāpur. We don't even have to go into Calcutta. Is that all right? So do you agree, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with the idea then, that the sooner we transfer there, the better, to Māyāpur? As far as the kavirāja goes, let us see if we get a local man from Calcutta, failing which, Smara-hari plus one other devotee will go to Śrī Raṅgam, and from a very reliable kavirāja, in their presence, they will have it made. Smara-hari, you see, is from Gurukṛpā and Yaśodā-nandana's party, so he has got experience sitting and watching people making the silver onto the throne. He knows how to sit and watch not to get cheated.

Prabhupāda: No, the thing is the man who would prepare, he must be experienced. That is wanted. And sincere. Then it will work, either you prepare there or here. When our men...? (devotees talk among themselves softly about who should go to Śrī Raṅgam)

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, in the meantime, some treatment should be there. In the meantime, before you get this makara-dhvaja, some treatment should be there.

Prabhupāda: What treatment?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we were thinking that this Vanamali Prabhu, he has made this medicine. So why not find out what is this medicine from him and you can take that in the meantime. He's made this medicine, Vanamali.

Room Conversation -- October 28, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Give me... Straight.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Make Prabhupāda straight. He wants to be up straight. Lift that leg up on the pillow. Okay, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Lift him from the center. It's not so much from here; it's there. That's it. (to Vrindavan:) So the certificates are lying with the bank, and I've written them a letter that they should take collection, the bank should take collection from the post office directly, and that after taking collection, the full amount of money should be transferred to your account, Vrinda Book Company, care of United Bank. We're making the payment to his company, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: The account number?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He didn't have the account number, but he has the name of the account and the ledger page and the bank and the address of the bank, which I think is sufficient.

Vrindavan De: That is enough, I think.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually, even without the account number, if you have the name of the account it sufficient.

Vrindavan De: Name, "Number 11," that's enough for account.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, then I've also informed them in the letter that the proprietor of the company—and I mentioned your name—that we have given you the counterfoil identity slips and also that we have given you the receipt for the safe custody. These certificates were kept in safe custody, so we're giving you the receipt, because it says that in order for these... Of course the bank can do everything, but you can deliver these identity slips and the safe custody receipt to the bank.

Vrindavan De: To my banker?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, not to your banker. To Prabhupāda's bank, the Bank of Baroda. Then I also mentioned that I am enclosing a copy of the power of attorney, that "Prabhupāda has been ill so he has difficulty in signing and he has duly empowered the following two persons." And that power of attorney will also be sent to them. So I'm also going to write a letter to Chandra requesting him to give Vrindavan help, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So he will carry all these letters.

Room Conversation -- October 30, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Where is podda? (?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your sister. I'm just calling right now. (break) (long pause-Śrīla Prabhupāda is sleeping) ...of the different businesses of Vrindavan? Well, first of all he was getting money for traveling expenses. So I have written a letter to Mr. Bekkar, the manager of the Central Bank of India at Camac Street, informing him that henceforward the interest from the fixed deposits in the name of BBT should be stopped from giving it to Vrinda Book Company, and instead the money should be transferred by mail transfer to the Central Bank of India, Gwalior Tank Road, to BBT account. I gave all the details. That's one letter. Then furthermore, I also addressed a letter to the Punjab National Bank, Brabourn Road, informing them that the Rs. 500 should be stopped from being given to Shrimati Radharani De, because... I didn't mention this, but the reason is that she'll be getting one thousand rupees from Indian Overseas Bank. And I'm sending that letter...

Prabhupāda: Oh... Has Indian Overseas arranged?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Let me explain what I was going to say. The letter to Punjab Bank I have not sent to the bank. Rather, I have sent it to Girirāja and informed him that when the Indian Overseas Bank sends their first transfer of Rs. 1000, then he may send the letter to Punjab Bank regarding Radharani De. In other words, when we first get it confirmed...

Prabhupāda: Why not Punjab National Bank, as they are sending, let them send and ask Overseas five hundred?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, because we've already given them a scheme which accounts for everybody.

Room Conversation -- October 30, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So how she will get?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rs. 1000 per month.

Prabhupāda: How?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A transfer from Indian Overseas Bank to her account in Bank of..., I think it's in United Bank of India, direct into her account. Her account is joint signature of herself and Vrindavan-candra.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So she is informed?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. All of them are informed. Then I've also sent a letter to the Central Bank of India—again I'm not sending it to Central Bank; I've given it to Girirāja—that when they start to get the 250 rupees a month from Indian Overseas, then we will stop sending the 250 from Central Bank of India. In other words, everything will be done from one bank, right on our land. It's a lot easier to deal with this way. It's much cleaner. Then... Let me see what else. I also sent a letter to M.M. De today. I requested him to please tell me what his bank account number is. I also... He's dealing with most of the business of Panchashil flat. According to Vrindavan-candra, M.M. deals with these matters. Apparently he has a little more legal mind. Probably he's more intelligent. Anyway...

Prabhupāda: No, who?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: M.M. De.

Room Conversation -- October 30, 1977, Vrndavana:

Bhavānanda: Navadvīpa is good banks.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Navadvīpa. And give the standing instruction at that time to Parliament Street bank to transfer every month the interest. That was my idea. But for the time being we have to tell them what to do with the interest. So I thought instead of going to the botheration of opening new accounts at the Punjab Bank at Parliament Street, let them go on transferring it to your accounts here. And then, when we open the Charity Trust account, then I'll give them a fresh instruction.

Prabhupāda: What...? The... In the Punjab National Bank, fixed deposits in the name of?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fixed deposits are in the name of... Five lakhs are in the name of Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Temple Maintenance account, and five lakhs, sixty thousand in the name of Māyāpur-Vṛndāvana Trust.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So where they will kept?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The interest or the fixed deposits? The fixed deposits are in Delhi, and the interest, for now, for the next few months, I am instructing the bank to continue to transfer to the accounts here in Vṛndāvana that it's always been given to. Then when the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust account is opened, I will issue a fresh instruction to the Parliament Street bank that the interest money should be transferred to that account in Navadvīpa or wherever we open the account. My idea was simply that since the money is to be spent in Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi, then when we write checks out, etcetera, from that account, it's much easier to encash it rather than having to go to Delhi for encashment.

Prabhupāda: No, why Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi? Whenever needed...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you said that the purpose of the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust was for development of Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi. That was your original... At least that's what you initially told us.

Prabhupāda: Mm. Which is better? Which is better?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That it should be just for Gauḍa-maṇḍala-bhūmi or general?

Room Conversation -- November 7, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya bhūmi Trust.

Jayapatākā: Mr. Chowdury tried, but now he's been transferred from the development commissioner. Now he's the transport commissioner. So now all he can do is give us a free... He gives us, tax free, vehicles. But he can't give us the land anymore.

Prabhupāda: Tax free?

Jayapatākā: Our vehicles in Bengal, we don't pay any road tax. He's the transport commissioner, but he's no longer development commissioner. And if the government gives us some land on acquisition, we'll take. But I don't think they'll give a big amount, neither we should wait for that.