Expressions researched:
"train up"
|"trained up"
|"training up"
|"trains up"
Dr. Patel: Not according to his birth and position of money, birth and wealth.
Prabhupāda: And anyone can be trained up to be qualified. That medical science is open to everyone. It is not that "Such and such caste can come here." No, anyone, if you are qualified, that's all. They are accusing me that I am ruining Hinduism, but they have ruined the Hinduism.
Dr. Patel: One man was cast out and he was not taken back, so he converted half of the Bengal into Islam.
Prabhupāda: No. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is: "Doesn't matter what you are. Now you become trained up. Whatever you are, it doesn't matter."
Prabhupāda: But there is no remnants; we sell everything. Generally when there is some remaining copies, the publisher bound it up for future sale, reference. (break) Vedānta-sūtra, that is the topmost philosophy. So that first verse, athāto brahma jijñāsā. In this human form of life there is no other business—simply to inquire about Brahman. This is the fact. If anyone wants to fulfill the human form of life as distinguished from animal life, this is the only business, brahma-jijñāsā. And the whole civilization is on this basis. Therefore first brahmacārī, how to understand Brahman. So the children of human society is trained up, same principle, how to understand Brahman. So yesterday with that gentleman I told, "Where you got the sand?" Our beginning talk was that.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes. Automatically he becomes devotee: "No, we shall become, remain here." This is the secret. Why the woman is liked? Because the woman, if she is trained up to give satisfaction to the tongue, to the belly and the sex, straight line, she becomes favorite immediately. This is woman's business. And people are hankering. The karmīs especially, they are hankering after these three things: palatable dishes, fill up belly, and sex. That's all. If the woman can do it, she conquers over the husband immediately because these three things they want. Take things very practically.
Prabhupāda: Frustrated? Everyone. Whether young or not, everyone is frustrated. He says that the desire in old man... It is expected because he has gone through the gṛhastha life. Gṛhastha life is a concession for sex life. That's all. It is not needed. But those who are unable to avoid it—"All right, have for some time. Then become sannyāsī." This is the process. It is not needed. So in old age, after going through these stages, brahmacārī is learning how to stop this sex life, and then, if one is still unable—"All right, take concession for twenty-five years. Then give up this habit. Then take sannyāsa." So that is the process, one who has gone through the stages, expected that he has no more... āra nārī bapa (?) "I have done..." But generally, those who are not trained up, their desire is not diminished. They have got the... That you see in your country, Western country. Seventy-five, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub.
Prabhupāda: Not artificial. It is a process. We have to give up this sense gratification. Go through a process to trained up. Just like sometimes in the club there is artificial swimming. Is it not? Artificial swimming. That is not swimming. But to practice something.
Prabhupāda: They are trained up. That is the.... Training, that is the real perfection. Our Tripurāri Mahārāja is there, and Viṣṇujana Mahārāja.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And Ādi-keśava Mahārāja is very expert, and Madhudviṣa Swami will be helping them.
Prabhupāda: A devotee's one qualification is dakṣa, dakṣa, expert. Out of the twenty-six qualifications, a devotee is always very expert in dealing. It is not that because they have left anything material, they do not know how to deal with material things. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī did it. Perhaps you know the story. Political.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that means authority. You are teaching him to accept the authority. And you are teaching against authority. Everything contradictory. One side, contraceptive; one side, illicit sex. And the.... But Vedic civilization says, "All right, as soon as woman is widow, let her remain as a saintly woman—no more sex." But "No, you can marry and you can have sex hundred times daily, but use contraceptive." Is that civilization? To train one woman not to have any more sex, this is also contraceptive. And another way that "You can have sex any amount, as many times as you like. Take this contraceptive." Whose civilization better? And you call him to be trained up to accept authority and teach him, "Don't accept any authority." Is that education? Nonsense.
Prabhupāda: How they'll do it? They do not know how to preach, neither they are trained up. That means it is his disqualification. He could not train them how to preach. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was training Haridāsa Ṭhākura, Nityānanda, "Go there. Preach there. Do that." My Guru Mahārāja was doing that. But he has no power. He cannot do it. He simply talks that he is a very confidential devotee. That's all. He cannot preach. Otherwise Prabhupāda developed this Māyāpura, and he could not do anything. That means he has no power.
Prabhupāda: Why not construct a big building for gurukula here? The students will be trained up to come here and sporting, having nice bath and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and build up their character. And in Bombay you will get many children, because there are so many rich men. They are not so much concerned to make their children technologist. If they get good education and character, they will give. Technologists they can purchase. Birla, they are not going to be technologist. They purchase technologist. I have seen in many respectable Marwari house. They don't send their children to school. They don't send.
Prabhupāda: First of all begin. Then we shall think of old. But.... At least when he is older, he will not become a nonsense. That.... We want to save him from becoming a nonsense. That is our duty. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dāntaḥ. When the brahmacārī is residing in gurukula, he must be trained up how to control senses. That is the first education. People are spoiled because they are not trained up to become controller. That is the defect of the modern age. And when one is unable to control senses, he will do all nonsense.
Prabhupāda: No, this is our regulative principle, that first of all you be trained up as brahmacārī. Then you be entered into family life. Then you retire from family life. Then you become a sannyāsī. This is a general procedure, not that you shall stick to one position. So a businessman does not mean he's fallen man. He can become first-class Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Everyone can be devotee.... It is a question to understand that "I am not this body." That is beginning. So a businessman can try to understand, a lawyer can try to understand, or a philosopher can try to under.... Everyone can do that. The real point is, first of all try to understand that you are not this body. So where is the hampering, becoming a businessman or family man or this or that? There is no hampering. We are trained up from the very beginning of our life by our parents. We got the opportunity. And businessman, no businessman, it doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: But still, if one reads the books as it is from authorities, there is chance of understanding. Real thing is training. So our institution is training, not only training, full knowledge, practical and theoretical. That is real scientific. If you give up one side, then you can give up the theoretical side, but practical side you cannot give up. Then you'll never come. The two sides, practical and theoretical.... So that is real scientific knowledge. So two sides are presented in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and they are being thoroughly trained up.
Prabhupāda: No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bāpakā beṭā sepāikā ghoḍā, kucha nehi to thoḍā thoḍā (indistinct), mean "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some, must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history.
Prabhupāda: They're going to become fish. Now they are being trained up how to become fish. So after this body is finished, they'll take a body of fish. When one becomes fish he doesn't know that this is punishment. He says that it is very nice. Concession by māyā, that he's put into suffering, but he'll think that "I am enjoying." This is mercy of māyā. (break)...anesthetic in surgical operation. Surgical operation, that is suffering, but if you apply some anesthetic, you do not perceive. It is like that.
Prabhupāda: That is the danger. But if they at once go to rāsa-līlā, because they are not trained up neither they are liberated, they'll think this rāsa-līlā is just like our young boys, young girls mix together, have sex like that. So it is supported our.... "Why should we restrict to no illicit sex, no this, no rules and regulations? We shall do all nonsense." That's all. And become a gopī. It is very good to aspire to become high-court judge, but how you can become high-court judge without qualification? That they are not thinking. They have no qualification, they have illicit sex, pregnant, going to abortion, and they're high-court judge.
Prabhupāda: Just like a student is being trained up in medical college, and when he becomes practitioner, the same thing. There is no change. There is no change.
Richard: Yes, I think you are talking about specific...
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is.... Take Christian religion. So going to the church, it is practicing how to establish relationship with Christ and God. So after death, if he's perfect, he goes back to home, back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: The institution is already there. We are conducting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if the government cooperates that a certain number of students must be trained up scientifically what is the meaning of God, that will be very much beneficial to the state or to the country. We can give solution for any problem. "We" means Kṛṣṇa. We are simply preaching Kṛṣṇa's message. Kṛṣṇa means God. Kṛṣṇa means black also. Kṛṣṇa, this word, (chuckles) means black also.
Prabhupāda: No, no culture. There is no culture. There is no standard social life. Simply hodgepodge. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to bring everything in proper order. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. So America is the leading nation of the world. If you work on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā and train up your people, it will be ideal state and example for the whole world. At least a certain section of the American population should be ideal. That will also do. Not that..., we cannot expect cent percent will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not needed. But if there is one section of the people ideal, that will be followed. We want to create that section, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Prabhupāda: No, it is the need of the human society. There is no alternative. In the Vedic mantra it is said, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). One must accept this. Otherwise, his human life is spoiled. If you simply trained up to live like an animal, then it is a great harm to the human society.
Prabhupāda: So that is mentioned in this book. So head means first-class intelligent. A class of men.
Kern: How about people who aren't first-class intelligence, people, as you mentioned, the foolish. What message...?
Prabhupāda: No, they should be trained up. The foolish man.... Just like a foolish child can be trained up to be very nicely educated to pass M.A. examination. Child is..., all children are foolish. That is accepted. But by training him, we can make him the first-class intelligent man.
Prabhupāda: Yes, then second class. Second class also required.
Scheverman: Also requires training, yes.
Prabhupāda: Suppose if there is war. So first-class men, they cannot go to fight; they are not trained up. But the second-class man who is trained up.... What is that quality?
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Courage in battle."
Prabhupāda: Courage in battle. Now we have got report that in Vietnam battles, what happened?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. There is plan. Now suppose if I say "Let us create some peaceful man," so who will disagree with this? I don't say everyone will be peaceful, but some of them can be trained up. Some of them can be trained up courageous in battle. We have to select by practical psychology what is the tendency. Similarly we should divide,...
Prabhupāda: Physical fitness, they are, this.... To keep the brain in order, that is also physical thing. So.... And the soldier trained up how to fight, that is also physical. But you cannot ask the high-court judge to go and fight in the field. Both of them are physical, but you cannot ask the high-court judge, "Go and fight in the front." His business is different, his business is different.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am Indian. I was born in Calcutta.
Kern: In Calcutta. And when you were there in Calcutta, did you receive the training?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I..., fortunately I was born in a very good family. So our familywise training was there. Especially in India, every family, it is like that. Trained up.
Kern: And your own schooling, then, in the local schools in Calcutta?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not in the school, but in my family.
Kern: In the family. Any formal?
Prabhupāda: Not family. My mother taught us: if there is one grain on the floor, we shall take it, keep it on the head. It is God-sent.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I was family man. But even one is family man, he's trained up how to become God conscious. So that was the.... That is, practically every Indian, at least in our time, they were trained up how to become God conscious in the family life. Therefore there is classification—the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya. So these four classes, that first-class man, brāhmaṇa, the brain..., taking instruction from the first-class man. And then the third grade, the productive class. So you read there the third class.
Prabhupāda: I shall request that.... There is no question of Eastern, Western. Now people are intermingling. Now I think that we shall have institution, especially in America, to train these first class, second class, third class, and the balance fourth class. Who cannot take up any training, they are fourth class. So how they should be trained up, that indication is there. It is not the question of Eastern and Western. You become peaceful...
Prabhupāda: That's all right; fighting is also required. When there is enemy, we are not discarding fighting. Fighting there will be. So long we are in the material world, there will be disagreement and there will be fight. You cannot stop it; that is not possible. So a class of men, they should be trained up fighting. A class of men, they should be trained up for teaching. A class of men for producing food. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). There are so many things.
Prabhupāda: When people become cats and dogs, dharmasya glāniḥ. Dharmasya glāniḥ means cats and dogs, because in the cats and dog society there is no question of dharma. They simply jump over and enjoy life. Eat, drink, be merry, enjoy eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. So if human life is also trained up in a polished way, the same principles, then where is the difference between cats and dogs? Dog is thinking, "I am this body, hound, greyhound," and barking, "gow, gow." Similarly, if we remain like that, in the bodily concept of life, that "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," then where is the difference between dog and ourself? The human life is meant for understanding that I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor American nor Indian.
Prabhupāda: That is tapasya. First beginning is brahmacarya. Therefore according to Vedic system, brahmacārī first—to teach how to become brahmacārī. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dānto guror hitam. The children should be trained up in such a way that they will be able to control the senses and act only for the benefit of guru. That is brahmacārī. They have no personal interest. So they are collecting daily not less than one lakh of rupees, up to five lakh, these boys. But their expenditure at my direction. Not a single paisa they can spend in their own discretion.
Prabhupāda: No. How they can disarm? They have been trained up like dogs to bark and fight. How there can be disarmament?
Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for who knows how long.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Hari-śauri: They've been talking about disarmament for years and years together. But they're simply increasing. There's no disarmament.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even within the different religions they are fighting amongst each other.
Prabhupāda: No, no. This religion is also bogus. How the dogs can understand religion? It is simply woax.
Prabhupāda: They have got faith that these people treat carefully. One civil surgeon(?) is a Bengali in London. Civil surgeon(?). You have heard this Aurabindo? His father was a medical practitioner in England, and he was born there.
Hari-śauri: His mother was Indian also or...? No. (break)
Prabhupāda: Indian families, they are living for two, three generation. (break) ...teaching them how to make home comfortable, they'll be trained up to become prostitutes. How to kill time.
Prabhupāda: So the neighbors they like it? Neighborhood men?
Kīrtanānanda: Most of them like us. There are a few that don't like us. But they are not violent. They are a little nasty.
Prabhupāda: Nasty they have been trained up to be. (Sanskrit) Once trained up nastily, it is very difficult to...
Kīrtanānanda: The state police in this local area has become very favorable to us. During that quarantine the state police had to stay here. So they even began to come to ārati. They took our books; they were reading. There's been a lot of change in some of the government. Some of the government men are now much favorable, more understanding.
Prabhupāda: Whatever was there, it was due to misunderstanding.
Prabhupāda: If one is trained up to indulge in sex only for begetting nice children, there is already contraceptive method. There is no necessity of unnecessarily producing cats and dogs children. So that requires training, determination. The śāstra says you should not become father if you cannot train up your children to save him from death. Who is the father who's training? To save him from the cycle of birth and death means to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you are not yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, how you can train up your children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? This is determination, that "If I cannot train my children to become Kṛṣṇa conscious and thus avoid the botheration of birth and death, I shall not have sex."
Prabhupāda: "Yes, the capitalist class is required and the working class is also required."
Reporter: "But they are fighting."
Prabhupāda: "Because they are not trained up, they have no common cause. The hand and leg work differently, but the common cause is to maintain the body. So if you find out the common cause for both the capitalists and the workers, then there will be no fighting. But if you do not know the common cause, then there will always be fighting."
Prabhupāda: No, religion, there is no religion for them, but there is no morality. Here we are having so many children, we don't brag that "We cannot maintain these children. Kill them." We never say that. Never mind. Let them be trained up as Kṛṣṇa conscious, live comfortably, take milk. So which is better civilization? Running with motorcar, putputputputputputputput and killing child? Is that civilization?
Prabhupāda: They are also trained, they are not afraid. They are sitting, you go, they are not afraid. They have been trained up that "We are at home." That animals and any birds can be trained. Just like these cows, they know that all of you are friends. Animals can understand. Even if you can make friends with the tigers and lions. Yes. I have seen it. In that New York exhibition, one man was showing me. He was embracing the lion and playing like dog. I've seen it.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends from the beginning of student life, kaumāra ācaret prajño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1), they should be trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends. Now from the very beginning of student life, because there is no education, he is trained up as demon. What can be done? So many things have to be reformed by pushing on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These are Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, whatever is described in the Bhagavad-gītā that is within the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to do all this. Water.
Prabhupāda: "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru." Jijñāsu śreya uttamam. After artha,... Just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church... Four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks... Actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Kṛṣṇa. What is this Kṛṣṇa? That is intelligent.
Prabhupāda: You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some store keeper says "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And the person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service, and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God.
Prabhupāda: Argument? Why do you bring such nonsense argument, waste time? Don't waste time. You are ignorant, you are accepting. Don't remain ignorant. It is common sense. Is it so easy that one can talk with God? If some common man says "Just now I went to Mr. Ford, and talked with him. I'm coming back from him." So any gentleman will believe that? So these are our insufficiency that we believe such things. We are not properly trained up. Simply waste time. That's not good. He may talk nonsense. Why I shall accept nonsense? The same example.
Prabhupāda: That is also tapasya. That is also tapasya. Just like we are prohibiting meat-eating. So in your country this is little troublesome. From the very beginning of his life he is, I mean to say, habituated to eat meat. The mother purchases powdered meat and mix with... I have seen it. And by force. So he has been trained up eating meat, and I say, "Don't eat meat." So therefore that is troublesome. And if he's serious, he must accept the order. That is tapasya.
Prabhupāda: Because actually we want happiness, blissful life. That is not possible in the material world. That is in the spiritual world. That is the aim. So every human being should be given chance. That is real education. That is called saṁskāra. So these saṁskāra, there are dāsa-vidha-saṁskāraḥ... So in this age it is very difficult, but if one chants Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra without any offense, being trained up by the spiritual master, all the saṁskāras automatically become done and he comes to his original spiritual position, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am spirit soul. The Kṛṣṇa is Param Brahman, and I am Brahman."
Prabhupāda: Everyone has mixed-up ideas because nobody is properly trained up. Some ideas they have got, some inquiries they have got. But unless one comes to the right person, he cannot be enlightened. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore one must approach the proper guru.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help.
Devotee (4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but... Everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya.
Prabhupāda: We have got this body, it will be finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehāntara praptir. Then again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So this is going on. This is impure stage of our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required. Tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). The tapasya required. That tapasya has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). That is brahmacārī system, to understand the value of life.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They're badly trained up. Not all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are many good things that they have done.
Prabhupāda: That we already admitted. That I can see ten feet, let me credit, take credit for that. But why shall I say, "I can see the whole universe." What is this nonsense? Speak the truth. "Now we have manufactured machine, and this, I have calculation that..." All talking nonsense. I say it is not possible for you to see beyond ten feet. Why you are claiming that you can see the whole sky? That is our protest.
Prabhupāda: Woman should be expert in cooking. That is their natural tendency. They should be educated how to cook nicely, how to please the husband, how to take care of the children. This is Vedic civilization. In the beginning a woman, childhood, she's trained up by the mother. Then as soon as she is married, formerly, child-marriage, so she's transferred to the care of mother-in-law. There she is trained up. Then she becomes very good housewife, takes care of household affairs, husband, children, and home becomes happy.
Prabhupāda: But just like here is Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, or you are here. So you are not scientists from the very birth. You have been trained up how to become a scientist. Similarly, the birth is there. Whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. But you have to be trained up how to become first-class brain. That is brāhmaṇa. You have to become truthful, you have to become controller of the senses, you have to become fully aware of things, of God, everything, full knowledge, then you become brain. These people give scientists so much importance because there is brain. Brain, in the society, there must be brain.
Prabhupāda: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training. Some section of the people, they should be very intellectuals, brain, just like to maintain this body we require first of all the brain. If the brain is not order, then other parts, they may be there, but they are also useless. So similarly, in the society, some intellectuals should be maintained. They are called brāhmaṇas, and some of the brāhmaṇas, they are sannyāsīs.
Prabhupāda: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are śūdras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as kṣatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not kṣatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post.
Prabhupāda: In this age everyone is a śūdra. So it doesn't matter, everyone is born śūdra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brāhmaṇa, how to become kṣatriya, how to become vaiśya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect.
Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). They should be trained up how to read at the house of the spiritual master. They should be trained up how to control the senses, dānta. Dānta means to practice how to control the senses. That is the difference between human being and animal. Animal cannot be trained up how to control their senses. That is not possible. But a human being can be trained up to control his senses. The yoga practice is meant for controlling the sense. Yoga-indriya-saṁyamī.
Prabhupāda: No. Materially they may be doing some improvement, but that is not spiritually important. Just like I give sometimes this example: just like a dog, animal, is jumping with four legs on the street, and we are going fast with four wheels, so that does not make any difference. The difference is the dog cannot understand about his spiritual identity. A man can understand if he's properly trained up. If the man is denied that facility, then he remains in the ignorance of an animal like cats and dogs.
Prabhupāda: The basic principle is that modern society is neglecting to train up—especially young men, you can see that in spite of so many universities throughout the world—these young men are being trained up how to become women-hunters and debauches. Going to the bars, going to the gambling houses, and they are supposed to be educated people. So real education is how to train up one to have ideal character, to become a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is (why) our gurukula is there. How these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, (indistinct), how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are doing the same thing, offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Very nice. They should be trained up properly. Special care should be taken. That is the idea of my Guru Mahārāja, a Gurukula. Gurukula, we are not going to make some big, big scholars. We don't require scholars. We require ideal men by character, by behavior, by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not by studying grammar. There are many grammarians. Let them study our books nicely, English, little Sanskrit, that's all. Gurukula organize like that. We don't want big, big scholars. Unnecessarily. There are so many scholars in the universities, drinking and woman-hunting, that's all. In the universities, I know, to get the degree, pass the examination, the girls have to adopt prostitution with the teachers, I know that.
Prabhupāda: Just like... These are all discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā, what kind of social arrangement should be. That... It is called varṇāśrama-dharma. A brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha—these are different groups, and if they are favorably trained up then spiritual understanding becomes very easy.
Prabhupāda: No, if... The purpose is to train a person in brahmacārī, not to enter into the entanglement of this material life. That is Vedic system. Basic principle is that don't be entangled with this material energy. So at the early age, up to twenty-five, he's trained up. If he can, he can continue as brahmacārī. He directly can take sannyāsa. But if he's unable, so let him go by step by step.
Prabhupāda: No, if he's trained up. Just like here we have got so many young men. They are trained up. So there is no prohibition that a young man cannot become a sannyāsa. If he's able, he can take sannyāsa from the very beginning. But if he's not able, let him enter into household life and then remain as householder up to fiftieth year, then retire, then take sannyāsa. It is not an enforcement. A gradual process. But the ultimate end is to become free from all material attachment and completely devote life for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the ultimate end. Because human life is meant for that purpose, self-realization or spiritual realization, that opportunity must be given to all human beings.
Prabhupāda: Guror hitam. So, a brahmacārī, a brahmacārī should live in the Gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach, any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated.
Prabhupāda: So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boys or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boys, some department are suitable for the girls. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is Gurukula. And brahmacārī, this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyāsīs are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They were trained up in such a way from the beginning of their life. I have seen small children they give powdered meat mixed with hot water and spoon. Is it now? What can be done? Poor child.
Hari-śauri: They made them eat meat. My nephew used to refuse, so they used to force him to eat it.
Prabhupāda: Just see, by nature refusing, and by force...
Hari-śauri: They they develop a taste. My mother said that I used to refuse as well, but then they made me. Now I got a taste.
Prabhupāda: So in my childhood, when I was one and one-half years old, I suffered from typhoid, and the Dr. Karttika Candra Bose, he said that he, "Please give him chicken juice." So my father refused: "No, no, we cannot." "No, no he has to be given. Now he has become very weak." "No, no, I cannot allow."
Prabhupāda: If they can be trained up, they can become very good preacher, each one of them. And they can make hundreds of devotees. In this way we can expand. Are you realizing that there is no civilization? Actually civilization we are introducing. Except Aryan civilization, Vedic civilization, there is no civilization—animal society. What do you think? Are you convinced about it?
Prabhupāda: But why people do it again and again? Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Those who are kṛpaṇa-kṛpaṇa means not brāhmaṇa—those who are not trained up as a brāhmaṇa, they cannot tolerate this itching sensation. They become victimized and the aftereffect is very, very bad. So either illicit or not illicit... They know it. The modern civilization, they have adopted the means of killing. First of all, they try to stop pregnancy by contraceptive method, and still if it is not stopped, then kill. And if he's still born, then again they put up in a box and go away.
Prabhupāda: We know that. But the father, mother must take care at least. Properly trained up, they should be always engaged. That is brahmacārī gurukula. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). From the very beginning they should be trained up. From the body, they should be trained up how to take bath, how to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or some Vedic mantra, go to the temple, offer obeisances, prayer, then take their lunch... In this way, they should be always engaged. Then they'll be trained up. Simple thing. We don't want to train them as big grammarians.
Prabhupāda: Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply let them be convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is our duty to serve Him, that's all. Huh? (indistinct) What is that? māyār bośe, jāccho bhese' Khāccho hābuḍubu bhāi jīv kṛṣṇa-dās ei biśwās korle to ār duḥkho nāi. So organize. If you have got sufficient place, sufficient scope, let them be trained up very nicely. If some four, five centers like this there are in Europe, the whole face will be changed. Important places like Germany, France, England. Now we are getting place. I like that place, German, on account of this. It has got scope.
Prabhupāda: Because you do not train the boys to be qualified. You train them to become debauch. What can be done? You train them from brahmacārī, then they'll be responsible husbands. Both the girls and the boys should be trained up. Then they'll be responsible husband and wife and live peacefully. In their young days, if you give them freedom, they'll spoil. What can be done? Young, youthful days, if you give them full freedom, they'll be misguided and spoiled.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you remain here for some time. Be trained up. Because every one of us, we have followed the silly jackals. Now we have to follow Kṛṣṇa. Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's advice. First of all, let your personal life be successful, then try to do good to others. The, all over the world, they have simply followed the silly jackals. Now we have to follow Kṛṣṇa. When you are trained up to follow Kṛṣṇa, then our life is successful.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa can give you all guidance. In all respective necessities of life, there is everything complete. We haven't got to follow the silly jackals. So here is a nice place, you stay here and forget the silly jackals and take to Kṛṣṇa alone or His devotees. Then you can start very nicely a center anywhere. That is the duty of everyone. We should open hundreds and thousands of centers all over the world. But one who is going to open, he must be first of all trained up.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that requires the training and guidance of spiritual master. Therefore called spiritual master. You have to... Just like if you want to be an engineer, you must be trained under some engineer. Similarly, if you want to be trained up spiritually, then you must accept a spiritual master. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) must, otherwise not possible. Training. So spiritual master trains with these books, and explanation, practical demonstration. In this way the student makes progress spiritually.
Prabhupāda: This is Bhāgavata communism. If you take more, you'll be punished. (break) ...our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1). The Indians are trained up like that. He is happy in whatever condition of life he is placed. He doesn't protest. Any Indian villager, he'll say "God has given me this position, that's all right." Therefore the modern man is complaining that in India, this God consciousness has made them lethargic. They do not do... They believe on the destiny.
Prabhupāda: And if you are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, God, then you'll get the body like Kṛṣṇa. That will be decided at the time of your death. Because at the time of death you'll be absorbed with thinking which you have done throughout the whole life. Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ (BG 8.6). Just like the whole day you are working with some business, at night also dreaming that, subtle body. So you have to train up yourself within this life how to think of Kṛṣṇa. Then there is chance of thinking of Kṛṣṇa at the time of death and go back to home. It is not difficult. Very easy.
Prabhupāda: ...I.A.S. civil service examination before one man is posted in some responsible office. Similarly, to be recognized by Kṛṣṇa, as He says na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu (BG 18.69), one has to pass examination, severe test of examination. All the big, big devotees we see. Nārada Muni, before becoming Nārada Muni, he had to pass through severe examination, test. That chance is there in the human form of life, to pass the examination, test. But they are passing this human life with ordinary animal propensities. They are not trained up to pass the examination and be recognized by God.
Prabhupāda: Actually there is nothing so extraordinary that one should faint but we see practically that Caitanya Mahāprabhu fainted, "Here is My Lord." It is the question of vision. Premāñjana-cchurita bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). (At this point a tik-tik lizard makes his sound) It is also confirmed. One, that is called (indistinct), one who is trained up to see God, he can see. (indistinct) Premāñjana-cchurita bhakti-vilocanena. Just like sometimes we cannot see properly if there is, what is called...
Prabhupāda: Kleśada āsa dehaḥ. Kleśada, as soon as you get a body, kleśada. May have good doctor friend, but I'll have to suffer. We can get some relief, but suffering is there. Therefore na sādhu manye. It is not good. So people are being trained up to become mad, pramattaḥ. And do anything, bring money. This is the modern civilization. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Things which are forbidden, they are doing that. Why? Indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti, only for sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: That means you are not properly trained up. The thing is, the first business of human being is to inquire about the spiritual subject matter. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the Vedānta philosophy. Now we have got this human form of body, it is your duty to inquire about the spiritual subject matter. But if your guardians, if your parents, if your government does not teach you, then it is our misfortune.
Prabhupāda: Ah, vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So where is rājarṣi? That is the difficulty. Where is that brāhmaṇa, where is that kṣatriya, where is that system? Now anyone can capture the political power by hook and crook, that is another thing. But it is meant for the rājarṣi, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Where is their training? The politician, where he is trained up as ṛṣi? There is no such service.
Prabhupāda: So let us cooperate with him. You take it. And he is there. In the meantime, our men may be trained up.
Jayapatākā: He's invited us to come. He has some festival coming. Then we can just go...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That...
Jayapatākā: ...and keep a good relationship.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Jayapatākā: The main one is in December.
Prabhupāda: Our difficulty is this immigration. If we can manage this, then all such places we can take. There is no question. The only thing is that government is gagging. One has to go and it means ten thousand rupees unnecessarily. If that ten thousand rupees was invested in developing that center, much improvement could be done. But they are gagging. They are dreaming, "CIA."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Their men are being trained up.
Saurabha: That is actually the best.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Saurabha: They will be engaged always like that.
Prabhupāda: They have got marble-polishing machine.
Saurabha: Yes. Last night I spoke with Jayapatākā Mahārāja, and he says that the land requisition will be in about two months or something. So whether we should go ahead with trying to purchase land before we wait till...?
Prabhupāda: Purchase land?
Prabhupāda: That is the speciality. The guru... One should go to guru to serve him as menial servant. That is acceptance of guru. That is required. Nīcavat. Nīca, nīca means menial. Just like menial servant, he does everything. Similarly, to live with guru means to serve him as a menial servant. That is Vedic injunction. Nīcavat. You should not be puffed up, that "I am coming from such royal family, I am coming from such rich family." And that tendency is trained up from the childhood. A child does not know. Just like Pradyumna's son. You can engage him in any menial service. He does not discriminate. He's trained up. So this is gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. Unless one diverts attention to Kṛṣṇa consciousness it is not possible. One must have some business, engagement. Just like in New York as soon as there was electric failure for four hours, so many women became pregnant. Because he has no business in the darkness. But if he was trained up to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, one could utilize the time for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But they have not such training. Nobody has such training. So how they will utilize the time? Come on, let us have... Although he knows...
Prabhupāda: Now in this life he can stop the birth and death. Punar janma jāyate. That is Vedic culture. How to conquer over this process of repetition, birth and death. That is only possible in the human life. A chance is given, and if he misses this chance then again he'll be cycle... Therefore the father and mother's duty is to train up the children in such a way, that this is the last birth. No more birth. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). And that training, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But the things are different. Both the parents and the children, all of them are going again in the cycle of birth and death and wasting the opportunity of getting a human body.
Prabhupāda: So the karmīs, they're advised, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad arpaṇam. "Give me." So these karmīs, somehow or other, by their great fortune, they're giving something to the Lord. Yajñārthe. That money should not be utilized for any other purpose. That is our message. It must be utilized for the purpose to fulfill the mission of the Lord. Mission of the Lord is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). How people can be trained up to give up all these nonsensical type of dharma, and how to become a devotee of Lord. For this purpose this money should be spent. Then it will be all right.
Prabhupāda: They do not know how to eat on the whole. India knows how to eat. (Pause) I have traveled all over the world, and this is my experience. Nobody knows how to eat.
Devotee: Nowhere at all, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Only India. (break) ...every province they have got different dishes. Because the woman, they are trained up how to cook very nice.
Devotee: I even see these boys when I was in Chandigarh, in a dish next door to the temple we were starting there.
Prabhupāda: Woman is meant for that purpose, how to make nice palatable dishes.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. In Bengal there is a ceremony after marriage, bahu-bhāta. (?)The newly married girl, she shall cook, and all the relatives, friends, are invited and they appreciate, "Yes, nice cook." Then she is accepted as member of the whole family. Bahu-bhāta.
Devotee: And if not, Prabhupāda? If her cooking is not...
Prabhupāda: Therefore she is trained up.
Devotee: And if she's not trained up.
Prabhupāda: She must be trained up. Just like Rādhārāṇī, She was trained up in sixty-four arts. Do you think to captivate Kṛṣṇa is easy thing? How much qualified She must have been so that Kṛṣṇa was attracted. (loud laughing in background) What is this?
Prabhupāda: Soldiers, they were not paid. They were given land by the king. "You enjoy this land without any price. But when there is fight you have to come out." Fight is not going every day. It may take place after some years. So they are living peacefully.
Caraṇāravindam: It was similar in old England in the knights' time.
Prabhupāda: That is the whole world history. Now they have made encumbrance. Naturally, a class of men, they became soldiers. They were trained up, and...
Caraṇāravindam: Whenever I visited a village in India, people were always very friendly. "Sit down, take some meal." Or if I walk through a field they will pick something from a tree, some tomatoes, or some vegetables and give it to me.
Prabhupāda: You can grow some tomatoes here. That is a very easy thing.
Prabhupāda: They can. They'll not accept the process. They can. Everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs? Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs. Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat-eating and... But you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī..." They'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method, and naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again.
Prabhupāda: Actually no engagement. The girls are loitering in the street by dressing. It will become more and more problems, city life. So this is the solution, that they must go back to the village. But they are trained up to enjoy the facilities, so-called facilities, of the city. They are not going to village. But if we can introduce this hari-saṅkīrtana, and if they have little taste, that is success. It's a great program. And that taste will come-ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). If he simply becomes little sober that "I want to eat, I have to sleep, I want some sense enjoyment and defense.
Prabhupāda: That was their policy. Because there was one Britisher politician, Lord McCauley. His report was, he studied the whole Indian situation. They were very expert politicians. He reported that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them. They must be trained up in such a way that they would think their own culture as useless; this Western culture is very good. That impression must be there. Otherwise, you cannot rule over them." So the education and everything was going on very silently on this principle.
Prabhupāda: Where this class of literature is now. Yathā sūtyām, in the maternity home or maternity room, Sūtyām. Abhijāta-kovidāḥ. The astrologers who can estimate the newly born child's destiny. Whatever they predicted, according to them, yathā hi sūtyām abhijāta-kovidāḥ samādiśan. They said that "This child will be like this"—exactly he became. Parīkṣid dvija-varya-śikṣayā, and being trained up by first-class brāhmaṇas, and the child came perfectly the king. Where is that king?
Prabhupāda: And he has called Padma-locana. Similarly, this harijana movement is a farce because they remain the Cāmāra and Bhangis, and still they are called harijana. The same thing. No locana, but padma-locana. Everyone has got right. You can become the most advanced devotee. There is no hindrance. But they must be trained up as harijana. Not that artificially you simply rubberstamp harijana. Therefore that movement is failure.
Prabhupāda: This is not caste system. It is natural. There is always an intelligent class of men in the society. So they should be, what is called, listed. They should be trained up properly.
Dr. Kneupper: How do you envision...? Would you envision...?
Prabhupāda: Just like you are a philosopher. So you should not make only theories, "perhaps." But actually, by your philosophy, you establish the existence of God. Then you are philosopher. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya... (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse in the Bhāgavata.
Prabhupāda: Well, that we are doing, but this is the opposition. That our boys are trained up. They are trying to meet the opposition. But my point is that such a nice thing we are giving. Why they should oppose? That means uncivilized. Why good thing should be opposed? They say, "In God We Trust," and we are speaking of God only. We have no other business, and they are opposing. And they write, "In God We Trust." Hypocrisy. "If we believe in God, we trust in God, all right, they are talking of God. Let us hear." That is sense. That Patrick? Patrick? He kidnaps our devotees.
Prabhupāda: Change is no rectification. If somebody is not working he should be trained up. Changing is another... If he is a fool, another fool will come. What will be the difficulty? You see? Change, of course, sometimes required but if you constantly change, the man is not trained up. That practice is not good. If somebody is not doing satisfactorily, then he should be trained up that "You should like this." And if you immediately change another that, that is not actually solution because all our workers, they are not accustomed to certain type of duty. They are devotee, after all.
Prabhupāda: Everyone should remember that we are serving Kṛṣṇa, and everyone should remember, "The other person is serving Kṛṣṇa. And because he is serving Kṛṣṇa, he is not my servant; he is my master." That should be always in view. Therefore we address, prabhu: "You are my master." We never address, "You are my servant." We are trained up to say my brother, that "prabhu," "such and such prabhu." Prabhu means master. Nobody think himself that he is master. He should always think that everyone is his master because he's serving the master. This is our philosophy. So in this way... Now you have got good arrangement and they're all intelligent persons, young persons.
Prabhupāda: So that training... Everyone is under training; then who will be head? If in old age you have to be trained up, then when they will be trained up? So what is the..., to sit down silently? That's all?
Mahāṁśa: We'll send the parties out...
Prabhupāda: Make. Make immediately program, where to go. So why you are not making?
Mahāṁśa: Now? Here?
Prabhupāda: Yes, make program immediately. Write what to do.
Prabhupāda: No, we are trained up, because we belong to Kṛṣṇa family. So this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa worship is our family tradition. Our forefathers, my father, my maternal uncles, we are Vaiṣṇava family. Belonging to the Caitanya-sampradāya.
Mr. Malhotra: But how you entered in business, I mean.
Prabhupāda: Because we were trained up from the very beginning of our life by our father, mother.
Prabhupāda: Yes, our whole family. We have our family Deity, Dāmodara. In my childhood I was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities. And then, fortunately, I got my Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. So this was a good fortune, from the very beginning we were trained up. So in the beginning of our life, I was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and playing with (indistinct). The same thing is being done now. In a larger scale. (laughter) Nitya yukta upāsate. There is no change.
Prabhupāda: Our movement is, either you are Hindu, either you are Muslim, either you are Christian, you kick out all this. Sarva-dharmān parityajya. Simply you become surrendered to Kṛṣṇa or God. This is our... And anyone who can do that, he is first-class religious. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Adhokṣaja, God's name is Adhokṣaja. You cannot see Him beyond your material perception. So if you are trained up to surrender to God, then you are religious. We do not say that you become Hindu or Muslim or Christian or this or that. We do not say so.
Prabhupāda: They have no time to waste time in that way. They must be inclined that "I must prepare something nice so that my husband, my children or my, all friends will be very pleased." That is their policy. I wanted that all our girls, they should be expert. And in America they are doing that. They should learn the art of cooking and prepare very nice foodstuffs, daily change of menu. And the children should be so trained up that no more birth. And that is life.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Soldiers, they forget that "We have to die." They fight for... That is another madness. In Hindi it is called kunchariya.(?)
Setterji: Kunchariya. (Hindi) That is... Ah.
Prabhupāda: Soldiers they do that. It is unnaturally he becomes. They become mad after killing. (Hindi) ...kṣatriya spirit. They must be trained up kṣatriyas. If he is bāniyā, he cannot do it.
Setterji: (Hindi) ...who have challenged us. So "Come on."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) So you are real husband. You gave protection to your wife.
Prabhupāda: What prakṛti? When there is...
Dr. Patel: Mithyaiṣa vyavasāyas te prakṛtis tvāṁ niyokṣyati. The prakṛti drags you down in that world.
Prabhupāda: Because he was trained up as a fighter.
Dr. Patel: Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ.
Prabhupāda: Our, one of the mission is to reestablish the division of the society according to...
Dr. Patel: But, sir, even without redividing them, nature has divided it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, nature has divided, but we are taking the post or some position without qualification. That must be rectified.
Prabhupāda: Just like we accept so many things compulsory, similarly, to give up family attachment after fiftieth year, that is compulsory. We therefore invite all the compulsory, what is called, renouncement. Of course, nobody can go to the forest. That is not possible. They are not trained up as a brahmacārī. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa Land—"Come on." All the vānaprasthas, they can live in this land or Vṛndāvana, Hyderabad, simply for bhagavad-bhajana and no other purpose, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (Brs. 1.1.11), making all other purposes zero. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). Jñāna and karma, these are bondage.
Prabhupāda: That requires education, training. You have become a lawyer not in one day. You have been trained up. Then you are lawyer. Similarly, everyone has to be trained up how to become perfect servant, but he must agree in the beginning that "Now I shall become servant of Kṛṣṇa." Then everything is there. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ tataḥ athāsaktiḥ tato bhavaḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15).
Prabhupāda: Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt: then all these material activities will stop. Because if you are engaged in spiritual act..., where is your time for material activities, for drinking wine and eating meat and going to the restaurant and...? No time. These boys, although they are trained up from childhood how to eat meat, how to drink, but now they have no time. They never ask me, "Swamiji, give me one rupee. I shall go to the cinema." Never. They have no time. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, all anarthas finished. These are the stages. Then his life becomes of devotion.
Prabhupāda: No, we say, "You are embarrassed. You come to us. Live with us. You get your food, and whatever service you can do, that's all right. Come here." That's all. We'll send in one of our farms or in temple. Let him be trained up. And if he is actually serious, then have engagement. There is no difficulty. "And if you want that 'I shall work in this way,' that is not possible. You have to work in our way." Then there is unlimited opportunity.
Prabhupāda: Yes. From Paris or here... In Paris... From Paris you can bring in the farm.
Yogeśvara: Well, at the farm there is not as much of a new bhakta program as in Paris. So the new men are encouraged to stay in Paris to get fixed up first.
Prabhupāda: So new... When they are trained up, they can come, live, especially gṛhasthas. My point is whether the farm is attractive. Not very much.
Yogeśvara: The potential is wonderful.
Prabhupāda: And therefore I'm asking. Potential is wonderful, so why they are not attracted to live in the farm and be self-independent and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? That is our farm project. Our farm project is they should be satisfied with simple living. That is nice living. If you get milk, if you get fruit, if you get grain and open air, it is very healthy life. Why they should not be attracted?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be trained up. And dviṣatsu, envious. Four division. So four divisions you have to treat in different ways. Prema, Lord, prema, love. Maitrī, friendship with devotees. Kṛpā bāliśu, those who are innocent, the kṛpā. Let them learn. And upekṣā. As soon as come to the dviṣat, no cooperation. Keep aloof. So when we try to keep aloof from the envious, that is not our enviousness. That is just to avoid trouble for preaching work. Not that we hate them.
Prabhupāda: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.
He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because kṣatriya. They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be.
Prabhupāda: So all the devotees picked up and they were placed together where Kṛṣṇa is having His pastimes in either of these innumerable universes. He's going on. Just the moving... The sun is moving-little, little, little. So Kṛṣṇa's pastimes go on—this universe, that universe, that universe, that universe. In some universe He's present. In all universes present, that is called nitya-līlā. So those who are advanced, perfect devotees, first of all they are sent there and then, further trained up, they enter. Mām eti. Just like after passing the administration examination he's made one assistant of some magistrate, and then gradually he'll be promoted up to the high-court judge.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. They can be trained up very nice, from the very beginning.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that should be one of their programs here, saṅkīrtana parties with the young gurukula boys when they get to be twelve, thirteen.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, Vṛndāvana also can be done.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are they making devotees there? Not so much.
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana locally you cannot do. Mostly they rogues, the bābājīs. But there is good potential. (door opens and closes)
Hari-śauri: ...system there must be kṣatriya and everything like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: Should we actually start to...
Prabhupāda: Train.
Hari-śauri: ...train up some of our men so they know how to fight?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?
Hari-śauri: 'Cause we have men who know how to use guns. They practice a little. But on the whole, our devotees don't... They're not...
Prabhupāda: They are not trained up.
Hari-śauri: Trained up to be able to defend themselves, and these people are professional guṇḍās.
Prabhupāda: That...? What is that? "Kivat?" They practice self-defense?
Hari-śauri: Karate.
Prabhupāda: Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). We are changing the dress. And so long we are interested with dress of the body, not of the body, so the person who has got this body will remain animal. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). So people are not prepared even to hear about this distinction, that "I am not this body; you are not this body." The modern civilization has trained up, educated people, in such a way that the more you think yourself, "I am this body—'I am American,' 'I am Indian,' 'I am brāhmaṇa,' 'I am this, I am that' "—and you feel and act like that and create trouble like that, then you are called civilized. Is it not? This is the defect of modern civilization.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) (break) People have been trained up not to become sober. Sober. Childish. And Vedic civilization is to teach the youngsters from the very beginning how to become sober-under restriction, under regulation, just to make him very sober. Brahmacārī (sic:) guru-gṛhe vasan dāntaḥ. Dānta means sober. And where is our paṇḍita.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This, the right... So generally, from the very beginning, they are not tame, so even if he is in older age he's the same untrained animal, dog. A dog, old dog or new dog, the same. (laughs) It doesn't mean that a dog has become old, he's now tame, no. Tame, that is another thing. It has to be trained. And that is possible for the human being. You cannot make animal dānta. That is not possible. So if a human being, from the very beginning of his life, he is not trained up to become restrained... There is another word?
Prabhupāda: That means he'll be trained up in his place. Is it not?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Satsvarūpa: And also Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja will retain responsibility for Red China, whatever can be done there.
Prabhupāda: That's very good. (laughter) I asked him to do this last year. Very good.
Satsvarūpa: India was broadly divided, the same as it is now, of Gopāla Kṛṣṇa to do the north and west, Gargamuni Mahārāja to do the east-Calcutta, Māyāpura. And in that connection we resolved that Śatadhanya Mahārāja should take responsibility for being president of Calcutta and Panihati.
Prabhupāda: Why two?
Prabhupāda: You will be invited. You stick to your position and train up your assistants and recruit more and more. We shall come out successful. Write books. You can take. Now yesterday Dr. Dattrey, did he say anything?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He didn't say much, but Dr. Sharma, he was discussing, and he was telling that he will definitely make an arrangement in Bombay Hospital for us to speak. But he was very impressed. And some life members came later on when the greeting of the pandal was finished. And some engineers also. They want to discuss something today also.
Prabhupāda: Recruit them. And speak in such societies. We have now our prestige and preaching. It will be very nice honor everywhere. So Kṛṣṇa has given you some talent. Utilize it. These rascals are misleading. Although the instruction is there, they are misinterpreting in their own way, misleading themselves and misleading others.
Prabhupāda: Then there should not be any scarcity for their comfort. People are trained up to the modern comforts. Therefore I am building so big, big institution. Otherwise, I... That's a fact. Rādhā-Dāmodara temple is sufficient for me. It is not for me I want these big, big buildings. I am accustomed to live anywhere. But those who are educated, scientists, they are accustomed, Europeans, Americans... They must be given proper place. That was my Guru Mahārāja's policy. Not that all of a sudden they should now live on the floor. No, that's not possible. Then they will be disturbed.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I took it so seriously. Every morning walk, I was, "Where is the scientist?" I thought "Here I have got an opportunity to impress that will fructify in fruition." That was my aim. Therefore I was bothering you in so ways.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is your incredible mercy, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Because I cannot use the technical words, and he can do that. So he should be trained up. What is the news of Dr. Rao?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So ask Upendra to come. Let him be trained up.
Bhavānanda: Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha is going to put some of your lectures in English script Bengali so I can give lectures. Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They will be very eager to hear from you Bengali. Yes. Now Kṛṣṇa is giving us so much opportunities. Utilize it. And be steady in your character, in your behavior, in our regulative principles. Then the spiritual strength will be there, and it will be... There is no doubt. Kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nahe nāma-pracāra. You must draw the spiritual substance. That is unlimited. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam (BG 10.10). Immediately. He can make everything possible.
Prabhupāda: Why you are concerned? If you become perfect by one, why you're after so many? Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (BG 18.66). So we have taken that one. That's all. Kṛṣṇa. We are not after zeros. Ask these boys to come after zeros and bribe them millions of dollars. They will refuse: "No, we're after one, Kṛṣṇa." They have been trained up. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. We have written these big, big books, eighty-four books, only on Kṛṣṇa. Now it is recognized that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine, in New York high-court.
Prabhupāda: And if Upendra can do like Bhavānanda, then it is very nice. Let him he trained up. He can do. (discussing cleaning of floor) Now it is black.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is starting to shine.
Prabhupāda: The more we do...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is like shining one's heart.
Prabhupāda: This is, this is marble.
Prabhupāda: So if you can pick up one person from family, then we can do immediately.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually they have a committee, and this land actually is meant for... It is already called, already reserved for temple purposes from the government of Manipur.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they can actually... The members of the committee told me that this was within their power, so whatever they do is final. So that's...
Prabhupāda: Maybe, but for management if we have to send foreigners, there are so many difficulties. But if the local people are trained up to our philosophy and mode of life, then there is no difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Each family...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...to give one family, one member.
Prabhupāda: That's it. Very nice.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually they are very attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So let them be trained up and then go there and follow our instruction and develop. In the meantime you can take it. The Lord Clyde, a crewman in the ship, he developed a British empire in India, organization. He's an insignificant person. He established British empire.
Prabhupāda: We have done it already in foreign countries—enough milk, enough vegetables, enough food grains. They're so happy. They're so happy. This nonsense civilization, attracting to earn money and construct anthill... These skyscraper buildings are as good as the anthill. It has no meaning. But they are constructing. So the change of attraction. Raso vai saḥ. All the rasas, they should be trained up to take it from Kṛṣṇa. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: (CC Madhya 22.42) "I have got the rasa from You. I don't want anything more." This is perfection. Otherwise, for these material rasas, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). That I was discussing last night. They have got sex rasa at home. Still, they're going prostitute-hunting. (break) "Mahatma Gandhi, you have got influence over the Muslims. Why don't you stop cow-killing?" And he said, "Oh, how can I stop it? It is their religion."
Prabhupāda: No, no, in politics, when you deal in politics there is no question... Kṣatriya therefore. These things should be trained up. Some of them should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. Some of them should be trained up as kṣatriya, some of them as vaiśya. They are required. So these things we want to organize. We can give you instruction. We can give you help. Now you have to do it, the leading... But it will be done. If you follow our instruction, it will be done. So the buildings are there. There is no...
Prabhupāda: And spoiling the chance of human life. Nature's law will go on. If somebody becomes next life a dog... There is possibility. These political leaders are like that. They are not trained up. Just like these dogs at night, they are very busy. Nobody has appointed them. But he is thinking, "I am in charge of this, watching." As soon as one dog will bark, all they, "Oh, gow! There is some important duty. Come on. Come on." And "Gow! Gow! Gow!" (laughs) And who has appointed him? They, all the politicians, are like that. Nobody likes... "Oh, oh, give me vote. Give me vote. I shall give you this arrangement." And barking amongst themselves, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" Therefore I said that the United Nations is an assembly of barking dogs. Actually that is. They cannot do anything. What they have achieved, the United Nations?
Prabhupāda: Hm? Stryadhīśa. So after getting that shelter, I began to grow. Everything was very precarious condition-vagabond. I was selling some books. I thought that "This boy will be trained up" when I got that place. He invited me to "Come to my loft." It was very big loft. I was holding class, collecting ten dollars. Then he was not paying rent. He gave me the charge of paying rent. So Kṛṣṇa was giving by collecting. It was on the top. Still, people were coming. Great story. Never mind. Now we... From my part, whatever is possible. Now you take care. That is my request.
Prabhupāda: So become authority. That is... We said that. You become guru, authority. But you learn first of all as celā from the guru. And then you become guru. And without any learning, without any..., how become a guru? That is going on. Everyone is self-made guru. That has to be stopped.
Indian man (5): I feel, in this country at least, the young generation, the present generation, absolutely has got no base, religious base. And...
Prabhupāda: Religious base is there. There is scriptures. But they are not being trained up.
Indian man (5): They are trained, but after some time they...
Prabhupāda: They do not like to be trained up.
Indian man (5): What will happen to this generation after ten, twenty years?
Prabhupāda: No, if the rascals—again we have to say "the rascals"—the rascal leaders mislead them, there is no hope.
Prabhupāda: Very strong management required and vigilant observation. (background whispering, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa and Bhavānanda) So you are foreign...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Beg your pardon?
Prabhupāda: You are foreign trained up. And you also idea how to protect our interest.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I'm always...
Prabhupāda: There is very great undercurrent.
Prabhupāda: If they voluntarily give contribution, that's all right. Otherwise we shall provide. We have got guesthouse. It is very nice. Even they do not pay, we shall pay.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can make scientific propaganda. And we can also do the same thing in Bombay. Bombay will be bigger.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have been trained up, (chuckles) for this purpose. (break)
Girirāja: So we drafted a will, including the trust for the properties of India and some of the other...
Prabhupāda: Will? Will, there will be direction that "Management should be done like this." That's all.
Prabhupāda: So people were inclined to send their children to gurukula. Now they are inclined to send their children to cinema, this, that... A difficult task, to institute. Loafer class, they should be trained up as śūdras, in carpentry, moving(?)... It doesn't, do not require academic education. Simply make a skill. They'll learn.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is... Practically the gurukula was planned for our own children. We have got gṛhastha devotees. They will have children, and they should be trained up. That was the idea of gurukula.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are a lot of boys in the Los Angeles gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Anywhere. There are lots and hundreds and thousands, but you have to collect them and give them proper education, vidvān, bhaktimān. Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁvā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam. So if you don't educate them as vidvān and bhaktimān, it is just like blind eye, kāṇa, with some disease, simply giving trouble. That's all. Pluck it out. The medical treatment is pluck it out. So what is the use of begetting cats and dogs? According to our Bhāgavata philosophy, if one is not able to beget nice children, then he should not become father-mother.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But if I am able to go out and I am ordered not to go out, then I will become mad. This is psychology. So this is the position of the society, very, very bad. And our mission is para-upakāra, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. So if we actually want... This is very good opportunity to train up from the very beginning to create vidvān, bhaktimān, jñānavān. Others also, they may be given opportunity. There is everything in the śāstra. We are presenting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa has given all direction in every field of activity. So let us carry out the orders of Kṛṣṇa as it is, as far as possible. That is our duty. Now these, my programs, they're also taking the concentrating people in the village, government?
Prabhupāda: So these big, big universities, allowing everyone to come and join school, college—simply wasting time and unemployment. Unemployment. This is not required. Only brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, those who are being trained up as brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya, they should be given book education. Otherwise practical. You see how the things are being done. Bas. A weaver, he sees "Kat, kat, kat." He's got it. Does it require M.A., Ph.D.? Simply waste of time. And that is going on. I don't want that, for "Kat, kat, kat," M.A., Ph D. (Bengali) "To kill a mosquito, bring a gun." (laughter) Nonsense education. I don't like that education. All right.
Prabhupāda: They should be trained up in the field, to the weaving practice or something like that. They don't require education.
Akṣayānanda: Intelligent class.
Prabhupāda: Intelligent class. We cannot make them interested. Some of them may come out, but not all. It is not possible.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes wealthy people are afraid that if their sons come to this gurukula, they'll become sādhus.
Prabhupāda: So that I am seeing, how to... That was the problem. They said, "What will be the benefit, satyavādī?" Satya śamo damo titikṣa, jñāna... (Hindi) So culture is lost. That is the difficulty.
Prabhupāda: And they are all intelligent in sense gratification. Quite equal in intelligence, like the man. There is no scarcity of intelligence. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. How to sleep, how to eat, how to enjoy sex, how to protect from danger—they know everything completely. (break) ...he's trained up. And how to enjoy according to the body, place, that complete intelligence is there. Lord Brahmā has got that intelligence, and the small insect, he has got. And Kṛṣṇa is giving everyone facility: "All right, enjoy." Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). Sarva-bhūtāni. Everyone is getting opportunity. According to his karma, he's getting a suitable body.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that was the training in the childhood. This Ratha-yātrā, Rādhā-Govinda sevā, prasāda distribution. Only the new thing I am doing-writing of books by the order of Guru Mahārāja. Otherwise, whatever I have introduced, I was trained up in childhood. I simply imitated. I am simply surprised. Now nowadays, even a low class... Formerly all our maidservant and neighborhood maidservant, they had two business, one prostitute and one maidservant. Otherwise they could not maintain. Simply by becoming maidservant, no sufficient income. We were paying them for not whole time three rupees.
Prabhupāda: ...allowing permanent residence, to suffer for that, that will help us. That will help us. But if they do not do anything, then what is the use of them? What we can expect from them, profit? What we expect? Our real problem is here, that every time, our men has to go out, they kicked out, trained-up men... So if we can at least, as he has asked, submit the names, let us test what they will do. Otherwise what help you expect from them?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only that, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: What help you expect from them? For money's concerned, we are selling our books, publication, everything. They are also profiting. We cannot expect any money from government.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You train up assistants and this will be recognized by government and everyone. You'll do more than Columbus. (laughter) In the Washington, in different compartments, a different explanation of Bhāgavata śloka by dolls will attract millions of people to see. Will it not?
Bhāgavatāśraya: Oh! It will become more than Disneyland.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And you can charge some fees, entrance fee. People will gladly pay. All around, this doll exhibition, and in the medium, a planetarium, small.
Prabhupāda: But you can consider our situation, that such big, big establishment and Deity... Here is a big establishment. In Māyāpura there is Deity also. They are trained up. They are helping me. So kindly... At least we have submitted some list. So give them either permanent residence or citizenship. In America I have got permanent residency, so why not here? If there is no such arrangement, give them citizenship. They have nothing...
Governor: I am meeting the Home Minister tomorrow also. I will also talk to him, Charan Singh. The meeting is. He's mainly going.
Prabhupāda: Because every year I am losing five to six lakhs of rupees for their going, again coming. Just like he's acting my secretary. Now his visa is finished. He has to go, and again he has to come back. And that means ten thousand, more than ten thousand. So in this way so many workers are...
Prabhupāda: Never mind. We have got big establishment and our, these European and American young boys, they have been trained up. Otherwise, how could I manage? We have nothing to do with politics. Rather, we are giving social service. What we'll do, politics? It is not our business. There are so many people. So the government should give us chance to organize a society for the highest benefit of human being. And they can see from our books what is our idea.
| Page Title: | Trained up (Conversations, 1976 - 1977) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Matea |
| Created: | 19 of May, 2010 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=144, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 144 |