There are many doctors. They are observing when a man dies, observing, feeling the pulse, taking pulse beating, offering oxygen gas, trying to save him. All of a sudden the man dies, and he is sure to die, but they cannot simply observe the symptoms. They cannot observe what is that thing which is gone now. They cannot say that. Neither it is possible for them to say. But their theory that combination of matter makes symptoms of life possible, they should prove it by experiment. Then it is complete science. Observation and experiment. But there is no such experiment till now. You trace out the history of the human society. Of course, in the modern world they cannot trace out chronological history more than three thousand years. That's all. But we can give account for many millions and millions of years. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, :imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "I spoke this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god. Now just imagine how many years, millions of years. So the modern theory that ten thousand years ago there was no human civilization, how we can adjust things?
Trace out the history of...
Bhagavad-gita As It Is
BG Chapters 1 - 6
In the Mahābhārata (Śānti-parva 348.51-52) we can trace out the history of the Gītā as follows:
- tretā-yugādau ca tato
- vivasvān manave dadau
- manuś ca loka-bhṛty-arthaṁ
- sutāyekṣvākave dadau
- ikṣvākuṇā ca kathito
- vyāpya lokān avasthitaḥ
"In the beginning of the millennium known as Tretā-yuga this science of the relationship with the Supreme was delivered by Vivasvān to Manu. Manu, being the father of mankind, gave it to his son Mahārāja Ikṣvāku, the king of this earth planet and forefather of the Raghu dynasty, in which Lord Rāmacandra appeared." Therefore, Bhagavad-gītā existed in human society from the time of Mahārāja Ikṣvāku.
BG Chapters 7 - 12
The conditioned soul is therefore called nitya-baddha, or eternally conditioned. No one can trace out the history of his becoming conditioned at a certain date in material history. Consequently, his release from the clutches of material nature is very difficult, even though that material nature is an inferior energy, because material energy is ultimately conducted by the supreme will, which the living entity cannot overcome.
BG Chapters 13 - 18
There is no specific date at which the jīva was born. Nor can anyone trace out the history of the jīvātmā's manifestation from the Supreme Lord. Therefore it is beginningless. The Vedic literature confirms this: :na jāyate mriyate vā vipaścit (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.18). The knower of the body is never born and never dies, and he is full of knowledge.
Srimad-Bhagavatam
SB Canto 2
Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forget his factual life and thus dream of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother, and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the reflection of the moon. Similarly, the crying child of the Lord is given over to the reflection, the material world, to lord it over as karmī and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this. But the fact is that as soon as he desired it, he was put under the control of ātma-māyā by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is "mine" and this is "I."
SB Canto 3
The material creation exists for the conditioned soul who wanted to become a false lord for sense enjoyment. One cannot trace out the history of when the conditioned soul first desired to lord it over material nature, but in Vedic literature we always find that the material creation is meant for the sense enjoyment of the conditioned soul.
SB Canto 4
Brahmā is not the creator or author of the Vedas. He is also one of the living beings in this material world; therefore he does not have the power to write or speak the Vedas independently. Every living entity within this material world is subject to four deficiencies: he commits mistakes, he accepts one thing for another, he cheats, and he has imperfect senses. The Vedas, however, are not written by any living creature within this material world. Therefore they are said to be apauruṣeya. No one can trace out the history of the Vedas. Of course, modern human civilization has no chronological history of the world or the universe, and it cannot present actual historical facts older than three thousand years. But no one has traced out when the Vedas were written, because they were never written by any living being within this material world.
In the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is established, tene brahma hṛdā: the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, instructed Brahmā in the Vedic knowledge through his heart. Therefore the evidence that Vedic knowledge is free from the defects of mistakes, illusions, cheating and imperfection is that it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Janārdana, and has thus been followed from time immemorial, beginning from Brahmā. The Vedic religion or the principles of the Vedas have been followed by the highly cultured population of India since time immemorial; no one can trace out the history of Vedic religion.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta
CC Madhya-lila
The word veda means "knowledge." Supreme knowledge consists of understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead and our relationship with Him and acting according to that relationship. Action in accordance with the Vedic principles is called religion. Religion means following the orders of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Vedic principles are the injunctions given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Āryans are civilized human beings who have been following the Vedic principles since time immemorial. No one can trace out the history of the Vedic principles set forth so that man might understand the Supreme Being.
Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
Devotee: It is said that once you achieve the Godhead, once you go back to Kṛṣṇa, that you don't fall down. But it is also said that we come from there originally. If we came from there, how did we fall if we were already there?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this example that personalities like Brahmā and Śiva, they also sometimes become victims of māyā. So our, I mean to say, potency of falling down is always there, potency. And because we are part and parcel of God and because we are now in the material world, it is to be understood that we have fallen down. But you cannot trace out the history when you have fallen down. That is impossible. But our position is marginal. At any moment, we can fall down. That tendency is there. Therefore we are called marginal. But one... Just like it is very simple to understand. Everyone is prone to fall diseased. Is it not? Now when you are diseased, there is no necessity of finding out the history when you became diseased. You are diseased, make your treatment, that's all.
You are not proprietor. How you can be proprietor? Suppose before you came to America from Europe... The land was there. And suppose sometimes you leave this land. Oh, the land will remain there. Or suppose I take my birth in America. So before my birth the land was there. And after my death, the land will be there. If you trace out history, go on tracing. When the land was not there, you'll never find. Therefore the land is God's. Why do you claim that "This is my land"? The earth belongs to God. Everything belongs to God. This consciousness should be changed if you at all want peace.
When you say, "You are American," that means this is the body. Because by accident, by something, by some reason, you were born in this land of America. That is also another artificial name. The land is neither America nor India. The land is land. But we give some designation, "This is America." We make some boundary. This is United States of America. This is Canada. This is Europe, and this is Asia. This is India. So this is our name, but actually was there any history that the land is American, or the land...? Say, four hundred years before, or five hundred years before, was this land was known as America? You have named it, America. Say, some thousands of years before was this, this, the continent which is known as, I mean, Europe, can you trace out history, that it was known as Europe? They are all designations.
But here in this world, even extraordinary person, he is also born. He is born. The President Johnson is born. So you are also born. Everyone. Even Brahmā is born. But He is not born. So how can I deride on Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man? Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā I will find it is said that avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ: (BG 9.11) "Those who are fools, rascals, they think of Me as ordinary man." Yes. But He is not ordinary man. Exactly this word is used, you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā, mūḍha. Mūḍha means the fools, rascals. They think of Kṛṣṇa just like ordinary man. But He is different. He is different from everything of this world because everything of this world is born. You will trace out the history, the birthdate. But you cannot.
Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures
This material world is only one-fourth manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy, God's energy. And the three-fourths energy is manifested in the spiritual world. So we can just imagine that in one-fourth manifestation of energy of the Lord, we are so many living entities which is impossible to count. Now you can imagine how many more living entities are there. But here we are conditioned and they are liberated. Those who are conditioned, they are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. Nitya-baddha means we do not know when our, this conditional stage has begun. It is impossible to trace out the history. But we are conditioned. There is no doubt about it. Conditioned means no freedom. No freedom. As spirit soul we are free. Sarva-ga, we can go everywhere, anywhere. Even those who get some mystic powers by perfection of yoga practice, they can also exhibit some powers. So why? As we become free from material conditions, our original freedom comes.
The child cries to have the moon from the mother and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the shadow of the moon. Similarly the crying child of the Lord is given over to the shadow of the material world to lord it over as a karmī and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history when the living entity desired this, but the fact is that as soon as he desired such, he was put under the control of ātma-māyā by the direction of the Lord.
There is no necessity of making research how we fell in this material contamination or envelopment. But we should be intelligent enough to understand that we are fallen now. That is... How we fell—you can trace out the history, but it is very difficult because anādi karama-phale, nobody can ascertain. Just like when a man is diseased he goes to doctor. So when he goes to the doctor, the doctor gives him medicine according to the symptoms and the diagnosis. There is no necessity of find out the history, how he fell diseased. There is history, but that is not possible to trace out.
Every human being is the followers of Veda because the history of all other religions, they are all recent—one thousand year, two thousand years, three thousand years—but you cannot trace out the history of the Vedic religion. So from historical point of view, suppose one religion is current for the last three thousand years. Then what was their condition before three thousand years? So the natural conclusion is: as there was no such religion three thousand years and the Vedic religion has no history—it is coming from time immemorial—that was the religion.
You try to trace out the history of the world, you'll find always persons who are for Kṛṣṇa or God, they have been persecuted. Lord Jesus Christ was crucified, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was caned in twenty-two market places, Prahlāda Mahārāja was tortured by his father. So there may be such things. Of course, Kṛṣṇa will protect us. So don't be afraid. Don't be afraid if somebody tortures us, somebody teases us. We must go on with Kṛṣṇa consciousness without any hesitation, and Kṛṣṇa will give us protect. If you are more tortured, then Kṛṣṇa will appear as Nṛsiṁhadeva and give you all protection. You are all Prahlāda, representative of Prahlāda. You keep your confidence in Kṛṣṇa, and He will give you protection, and go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
Verse:
- 'nitya-mukta'-nitya kṛṣṇa-caraṇe unmukha
- 'kṛṣṇa-pāriṣada' nāma, bhuñje sevā-sukha
Yesterday we have been discussing two kinds of living entities. One class, nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, they never come to this material world. They are eternally liberated. And another class, just like we are, conditioned. We are eternally conditioned. Eternally conditioned means we do not know when we have been conditioned like this. It is not possible to trace out the history. Because living entity, by nature, he is not conditioned. But actually we see that we are conditioned, and there is no possibility to trace out the history. Many, many Brahmā's life... Not only one Brahmā's, there are so many Brahmās changed, and we are conditioned. So therefore we are called eternally conditioned.
Initiation Lectures
So if you take history of any religious or any cultural program within this world, no religion, no cultural program is older than 2,000 years or 2,500 years. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, even according to history, it is five thousand years old, the older than any principles of religion or culture. And if you go above historical references, then it is coming down from millions and millions of years past, because it was first instructed, as we understand from the Bhagavad-gītā, that it was first instructed to Sūrya. :Imaṁ vivasvate proktam: "I first of all spoke this science to Vivasvān, Sūrya." Sūrya means sun-god. So nobody can trace out history when sun-god took the lessons, but we can have little information from Manu-saṁhitā, because Manu's age, Vivasvān... This age is called Vaivasvata Manu. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that first of all this initiation was given by Kṛṣṇa to Vaivasvata, and he instructed his son, whose name is Vaivasvata Manu. So Vaivasvata Manu, by calculation we can understand forty millions of years ago... So this is not a new system that we are introducing or manufacturing by our concocted imagination, but it is authorized, coming down by disciplic succession from time immemorial.
What is that māyā? Māyā means to plan how to become materially happy. This is māyā. All the people of the world, they are simply making plan how they will be happy within this material world. That's all. This is māyā. The history of the whole world studied, it is experience that the Roman Empire planned, the British Empire planned, the... So many empires, they flourish sometimes. All fail. The Britishers, they were, two hundred years ago, they were planning to rule over this vast land of America. George Washington declared independence; their plan failed. Similarly, in India they were planning to exploit. Now Gandhi's movement made it fail. So this is bigger plan. Similarly smaller plan also. There are many... Individually, we make so many plans that "I shall be happy in this way, in that way, in that way." So this plan-making business is māyā, because that will never be successful. Trace out the history of the whole world. Nobody has become happy.
General Lectures
Originally, the Veda was one, Sāma Veda. Then it was divided into four, Sāma Veda, Atharva Veda, Ṛg Veda, Yajur Veda. Then the Vedas verses were explained in Upaniṣads. There are 108 Upaniṣads. Then the whole conclusion was made shortened, cream. That is called Vedānta-sūtra. And again, this Vedic knowledge was, I mean to say, compiled in simple way for understanding of less intelligent class of men. That is called Mahābhārata. And in the Mahābhārata there is one chapter which is called Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is only a chapter of the great history of India, Mahābhārata. And then Vedānta-sūtra is described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Vedic literature is very old. Nobody can trace out the history. So far we understand, it is not man-made. It is coming out from transcendental world by disciplic succession.
So we all, conditioned souls, we are practically living in a place after paradise lost. We should understand this. So here the specific instruction is that deha-bhājām. Deha-bhājām means we have voluntarily or willingly we have accepted this material body. Actually, we are spirit soul. We should not have accepted this material body. But when we have accepted, how we have accepted, there cannot be any tracing of history. It is not possible. Anādi karama. Anādi karama. Nobody can trace out the history when we, the conditioned soul, accepted this material body.
Philosophy Discussions
Prabhupāda: That is not very important, how one becomes affected by some disease. But when the disease is there, the treatment must be there. That is natural. Instead of tracing out the history, what is the use? That the disease is there, make treatment and be cured, that's all.
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So we should be careful not being infected. And that how you can become free from infection? These four rules. "Don't have this, don't have this, don't have this, don't have this." Then you are free from infection. So you should be careful from being infected. There is no use tracing out the history when you become infected. You should not be infected. That should be your business. And as you are now infected, you try to avoid the causes of infection and take the medicine; you become cured.
Interviewer: Would you describe where Kṛṣṇa consciousness started and why you have come to the Western world?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is a very popular and old literature, Vedic literature, known all over the world. But so far the history of this Bhagavad-gītā is concerned, there are difference of opinions, but factually even if we take it as it is, it is at least five thousand years old. And in the Bhagavad-gītā we learn that five thousand years ago it was spoken on the battlefield of Kurukṣetra. But before that, some millions of years ago, the same Bhagavad-gītā was spoken long, long ago. So actually the human effort cannot trace out the history of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but taking consideration of the present history, it is at least as old as five thousand years.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So far we are concerned, this Bhagavad-gītā... It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, :cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Now, this Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago, and in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "This system of Bhagavad-gītā was first spoken by Me to the sun-god." So if you take estimation of that period, it comes forty millions of years. So whether the European scholars can trace out the history of at least for five thousand years together, not to speak of forty millions?
Prabhupāda: Canakya Paṇḍita, although he was prime minister, he maintained his brahminical spirit. He was not accepting any salary, yes, because for brāhmaṇas to accept salary, it is understood that he becomes a dog. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. He can advise, but he cannot accept. So he was living in a cottage, but he was prime minister. So this brahminical culture, the brahminical brain, is the standard of Vedic civilization. Just like Manu-smṛti. Manu-smṛti... You do not know. You cannot trace out the history, when Manu-smṛti was written. But Manu-smṛti is considered so perfect that it is the Hindu law. The Hindus are governed by Manu-smṛti. There was no need of passing daily a new law by the legislative assembly to adjust this social order. You see? The law given by Manu was so perfect that it can be applicable for all the time. This is perfect. Tri-kāla-jñāḥ. The word is there, tri-kāla-jñāḥ, past, present, future.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Veda means not religion, Veda means knowledge. So if you can trace out the history of knowledge, then you can trace out what is the date of Veda. Can you trace out? When...? Which is the date when knowledge began. Can you trace out?
David Lawrence: I wouldn't think they could.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
David Lawrence: I wouldn't think they could.
Prabhupāda: So how you can trace out the history of Vedas? Vedas means knowledge. Vedas means knowledge. So first of all find out from which date knowledge began. Then you find out the date of the Vedas.
David Lawrence: Yes, it seemed to me, I tried to read certainly, A.L. Basham...
Prabhupāda: Those who know Sanskrit, they know what is the meaning of Veda. Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda-vid jñāne. Jñāna means knowledge. That means the history of Veda means from the date of creation of this material world. Now find out the date of creation of the material world. Approximately, nobody can give what is the date of. We can, we cannot... Date of Brahmā, he got the, first of all, the Vedic knowledge. Now, one day of Brahmā you cannot calculate. One day of Brahmā. And the... When Brahmā's night is there, there is devastation up to some extent. So again in the daytime of Brahmā, that creation takes place. There are two kinds of devastation. One devastation is at the night of Brahmā and one final devastation is the whole cosmic manifestation finished. So these teeny people, they are after the dates of Vedas, and that is ludicrous, that is...(laughs) Just like there are many microbes, they grow in the evening and die just in the day beginning. So whole night is their span of life. So our life is like that. What history you can write? Therefore, we receive Vedic knowledge from the authorities. And what is the value of these dates?
David Lawrence: (laughs) Indeed. I mean it's the sort of thing that Western scholars excel in, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: Suppose if you try to trace out when the human being began calling "mother." Can you trace out the history?
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So far Kṛṣṇa consciousness is concerned, you can take it: since five thousand years, when Kṛṣṇa was present, He gave this instruction. But it existed before Kṛṣṇa's instruction. About forty millions of years ago He gave this instruction to the sun-god. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā:
- imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
- proktavān aham avyayam
- vivasvān manave prāha
- manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
- (BG 4.1)
So if we take up the statement of Bhagavad-gītā, then five thousand years ago this was spoken for the second time, and first time it was spoken forty millions of years ago. Therefore it is permanent, not that something new. It is existing eternally. Sometimes we are missing, and sometimes we are accepting, but it is existing eternally. You cannot trace out the history. Our calculation of history means we are trying to make the eternal time relatively limited with our life. But the time is eternal.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: You have got some independence. As soon as we misuse that independence, immediately we are criminal, go to prison house. :Daivī hy eṣa guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot cheat material nature. Immediately she captures. :Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pasate māyā tare japati 'dhare. That beginning is possible at any moment. You haven't got to trace out the history. Event if you are very honest, you can become subjected to these criminal law at any moment. You are prone to that. So there is no use wasting time how it was begun. You are criminal. Now make your treatment that you may not become criminal again.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Everything will be shortage. That is nature's arrangement. Daivī hy eṣā :guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). They cannot make any plan successful without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long they'll insist upon this point, that "Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness we shall do everything successfully..." That is durāśā. As long as they persist on this, they'll remain rascals. Every plan will be failure. Durāśā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī. Nature, material nature, is against them. No plan will be allowed to be... Just trace out the history. Every plan has been unsuccessful, either Eastern, Western. Napoleon made plan, Hitler made plan, Gandhi made plan. So many rascals, they made plan. Everyone's plan, impersonalist, they are unsuccessful at the end. Gandhi was killed, Napoleon was dishonored, Mussolini was killed, Hitler nowhere...
Correspondence
1968 Correspondence
You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent.
1976 Correspondence
So it is a long process how Indians, especially educated Indians, have become victimized by the slowly deteriorating position of Indian culture, but there is no use tracing out the history but generally we have lost our own culture and our leaders are not very serious to revive our own culture to the point. But still the mass of people, not being very much advanced in education, stick to the Indian culture. For example, lakhs of people still visit Jagannatha Puri during the Rathayatra Festival, lakhs still visit the Kumbha mela, and lakhs still visit the holy places of India, but there is no encouragement by the leaders. It is only a continuation of the original culture.
| Page Title: | Trace out the history of... |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Douglas t |
| Created: | 27 of Jun, 2010 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=3, SB=4, CC=1, OB=0, Lec=16, Con=8, Let=2 |
| No. of Quotes: | 34 |