Therefore it is said, śrī-bhagavān uvāca. Bhagavān means who is full with six kinds of opulence, aiśvarya: the richest, the most famous, the most learned, the most beautiful, the most strong, and the most renouncer. He's Bhagavān. So Bhagavān is the ultimate understanding of the Absolute Truth. Just like when you feel temperature... Just like we feel temperature from the sunshine, heat. And light. The sun is giving heat and light. We enjoy the light and heat. But if you trace wherefrom this heat and light is coming, then you go to the sun planet. That is localized. That is not impersonal. And again, if you enter into the sun planet, then you will see the sun-god, Vivasvan. So we should not conclude final simply by heat and light. So Brahman understanding, impersonal understanding of the Absolute Truth, is imperfect understanding, partial understanding. It is not full understanding. Full understanding is Bhagavān. Therefore it is stated here, śrī-bhagavān uvāca. There cannot be any mistake. That is final.
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
When the pitcher is broken, the small sky within the pitcher mixes with the big sky. The Vaiṣṇava philosopher says that the small sky is individual. It mixes with the big sky, but it keeps its individuality. The example is given in this connection: just like a green bird entering a green tree. So when the bird enters the tree, nobody can find out where is the bird because the leaves of the tree are green and the bird is also green. Nobody can trace out. But that does not mean the bird has lost its individuality. The individuality is there. Just like you see one airplane is flying in the air, and when it goes too far, it appears that it has disappeared. It seems to us that there is no more that airplane. It has mixed with the sky. But actually it is not. It is still there, individual existence. It is my ignorance that I see that it is no more separate, it has mixed with the sky. Just like in the daytime we don't find any star in the sky.
They cannot observe what is that thing which is gone now. They cannot say that. Neither it is possible for them to say. But their theory that combination of matter makes symptoms of life possible, they should prove it by experiment. Then it is complete science. Observation and experiment. But there is no such experiment till now. You trace out the history of the human society. Of course, in the modern world they cannot trace out chronological history more than three thousand years. That's all. But we can give account for many millions and millions of years. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "I spoke this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god". Now just imagine how many years, millions of years. So the modern theory that ten thousand years ago there was no human civilization, how we can adjust things? The Battle of Kurukṣetra was fought five thousand years ago. Before that, hundreds of thousands year ago there was another battle which is called fight between Rāma and Rāvaṇa. And there are so many instances in the Vedic literature. We can offer history of the world, of the universe, from millions and millions of years ago. But these people with petty knowledge for three thousand years or four thousand years, they are thinking they have advanced.
So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā is not a literature like that. Can you give any evidence, any book written five thousand years ago is still being read with still greater veneration, with greater respect, with greater attention. Is there any book in the world? Find out. Not a single book you'll find. You cannot trace out of any book written, say, thousand years or two thousand years ago. But here is a book which was spoken five thousand years ago; still, all over the world... It is not that Bhagavad-gītā is supposed to be Hindu literature, Vedic literature, it is read simply by the Hindus. Now the number of Hindus has minimized. Practically, in some portion of that India there are few Hindus only, actually speaking. So what is the number of Hindus? That is the, what is called, minority in the whole world. If you take calculation of other religion... I have seen the other day in the World Almanac the Hindus, the Hindus are the lowest. So how many Hindus are reading? In India not that 90% people are illiterate. So what they will read? And who is reading Bhagavad-gītā? It is all over the world. Still, you'll find in Germany Bhagavad-gītā is being read. In England you'll find. Even in Muhammadan countries you'll find, and what to speak of your country. There are so many editions of Bhagavad-gītā. I mean to say that see the importance of real literature.
One who has made his vow that "This worldly live, eat, drink, be merry and enjoy, this is all in all," for them, there is no question of spiritual life. We have to decide it that spiritual life and material life, they are different angles of vision. If we give more stress to the material life, material way of life, then it is not possible to have any spiritual realization or spiritual emancipation. Those things... Because the whole idea is, as we are discussing for several weeks, that I am spirit, pure consciousness. I have been put to this material contact somehow or other. Without tracing the history and how I have put into it... (break) But the fact is that I am put into these material circumstances, and therefore, due to my material condition of life, I am undergoing miseries, so many miseries. So the whole idea is that I have to get out of this material contact and reinstate myself in the pure spiritual life so that I shall not, I shall be free from all miseries. Because spirit soul, as it is, in its pure form, it is sac-cid-ānanda. It is eternal, it is blissful, and it is full of knowledge.
Yes. Just like this example that personalities like Brahmā and Śiva, they also sometimes become victims of māyā. So our, I mean to say, potency of falling down is always there, potency. And because we are part and parcel of God and because we are now in the material world, it is to be understood that we have fallen down. But you cannot trace out the history when you have fallen down. That is impossible. But our position is marginal. At any moment, we can fall down. That tendency is there. Therefore we are called marginal. But one... Just like it is very simple to understand. Everyone is prone to fall diseased. Is it not? Now when you are diseased, there is no necessity of finding out the history when you became diseased. You are diseased, make your treatment, that's all. Similarly, we are in the material condition of life. Just go on treating it, and as soon as you are cured, be careful not to fall down again. But there is chance of falling down, again becoming diseased. Not that because you once become cured, there is no chance of becoming diseased again. There is chance. Therefore we shall be very much careful. Yes.
Pradyumna: Bhagavad-gītā, chapter number four, "Transcendental Knowledge."
One: "The Blessed Lord said, I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god Vivasvān, and Vivasvān instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind. And Manu in turn instructed it to Ikṣvāku." Purport: "Herein we find the history of the Bhagavad-gītā traced from a remote time when it was delivered to the kings of all planets. The royal order is especially dedicated to the protection of the inhabitants, and as such, its members should also understand the science of the Bhagavad-gītā in order to rule the citizens and protect them from the onslaught of material bondage to lust. Human life is meant for cultivation of spiritual knowledge, an eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the executive heads of all states and all planets are obliged to impart this lesson to the citizens by education, culture, and devotion."
Prabhupāda: Hm. Stop. So in this verse the exact Sanskrit word is
- imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
- proktavān aham avyayam
- vivasvān manave prāha
- manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
- (BG 4.1)
- evaṁ paramparā-prāptam
- imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ
- sa kāleneha (mahatā)
- yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa
- (BG 4.2)
So this Bhagavad-gītā, science of Bhagavad-gītā, is not a new presentation. Just from this verse we can understand that it was instructed to the sun-god. Sun-god, apart from what is the duration of age of sun-god, but from the Manu, because the next statement is vivasvān manave prāha... Vivasvān. The sun-god's name is Vivasvān. Just like your, the chief executive head is called the president, similarly, there is a chief executive head also in the sun planet, president. And the present president's name is... Just like your present president's name is Mr. Nixon, similarly, the present predominating deity in the sun planet is known as Vivasvān. So everything is in detail.
Madhudviṣa: Purport. "Herein we find the history of the Bhagavad-gītā traced from a remote time when it was delivered to the kings or all planets. The royal order is especially dedicated to the protection of the inhabitants, and as such, its members could also understand the science of the Bhagavad-gītā in order to rule the citizens and to protect them from the onslaught of material bondage to lust. Human life is meant for the cultivation of spiritual knowledge in eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the executive heads of all states and all planets are obliged to impart this lesson to the citizens by education, culture, and devotion. In other words, the executive heads of all states are intended to spread the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that people may take advantage of this great science and pursue a successful path, utilizing the opportunity of the human form of life."
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated... (babies making noises) Oh, you should remove, yes.
Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). This knowledge, this transcendental knowledge, was imparted formerly to the kings because the kings were very responsible for the welfare of the citizens. When the kings were not responsible, then gradually the government by the people was introduced. Otherwise, formerly, the kings were very responsible, especially for the advancement of transcendental knowledge of the citizens. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayaḥ. Rājarṣayaḥ means "the sages among the kings." Although they were in royal order, they were very saintly persons. There are many examples, just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Mahārāja Parīkṣit. They were emperor of the world, but still, so pious, so religious, and so advanced in transcendent knowledge that there is no comparison. So especially meant that this was taught to the kings, to the royal order who were very pious and advanced in spiritual knowledge.
Of course, if you say, "What is the reason why the water is liquid?" it is very difficult to answer. "Why water is liquid? What is the reason?" if you ask like that, it is very difficult to answer why water is liquid, why fire is hot. This is the natural sequence. Whenever there is water, it is liquid. Nature is like that. Whenever there is fire, it is hot. And if you ask, "Why fire is hot?" oh, it is a very difficult question to answer. We have to trace out the whole natural course, why water, fire has become hot. Similarly, every living being is a servant. That is the natural sequence. How it has become, that will take some time to understand. It is not very difficult to understand. Because the small is meant for rendering service to the great. If God is great, and we are part and parcel of the Supreme, so our natural sequence, natural life, is to render service. That is our nature.
You are not proprietor. How you can be proprietor? Suppose before you came to America from Europe... The land was there. And suppose sometimes you leave this land. Oh, the land will remain there. Or suppose I take my birth in America. So before my birth the land was there. And after my death, the land will be there. If you trace out history, go on tracing. When the land was not there, you'll never find. Therefore the land is God's. Why do you claim that "This is my land"? The earth belongs to God. Everything belongs to God. This consciousness should be changed if you at all want peace. If you encroach upon God's property and take it as your own thing and try to utilize for your sense gratification, you cannot expect any peace, cannot expect any peace. Suppose you have stolen something from somebody else and if you want to enjoy, you'll be always in trouble because the police search will be there, and as soon as you are caught, you'll be in trouble. Similarly, the nature is the police agent of God. As soon as you want to gratify your sense by utilizing the property of God, then you'll be in trouble. The nature will inflict miseries upon you. This is the law of nature.
Now just see. Take any common man. Not yourself, not myself. Any common man. If you ask him that, "What you are?", he'll say... His conception is that I am this body. Everyone will say. He'll give you some description that, "I am Christian." "I am Hindu." "I am Mr. Such and Such." "I am Mrs. Such and Such." Everything, whatever he or she will say, that is all due to this body. All due to this body. Everyone. When you say, "You are American," that means this is the body. Because by accident, by something, by some reason, you were born in this land of America. That is also another artificial name. The land is neither America nor India. The land is land. But we give some designation, "This is America." We make some boundary. This is United States of America. This is Canada. This is Europe, and this is Asia. This is India. So this is our name, but actually was there any history that the land is American, or the land...? Say, four hundred years before, or five hundred years before, was this land was known as America? You have named it, America. Say, some thousands of years before was this, this, the continent which is known as, I mean, Europe, can you trace out history, that it was known as Europe? They are all designations.
So how can I deride on Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man? Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā I will find it is said that avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ: (BG 9.11) "Those who are fools, rascals, they think of Me as ordinary man." Yes. But He is not ordinary man. Exactly this word is used, you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā, mūḍha. Mūḍha means the fools, rascals. They think of Kṛṣṇa just like ordinary man. But He is different. He is different from everything of this world because everything of this world is born. You will trace out the history, the birthdate. But you cannot.
Prabhupāda: Now explain.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So this material world is a perverted reflection of the transcendental spiritual world. Everything that we find here can somehow..., we can trace its origins to the spiritual world. Just like we have...
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, ūrdhva-mūlam. Mūlam means root. Just like from the root the tree grows and becomes expanded. So now, this experience, the mūla is upside and the tree is expanding in this way... Ūrdhva-mūlam. Adhah-śākham (BG 15.1). The branches are down. Here we have got experience, all these trees, the root is down and the branches are spread up. But here is, experience is... That means this material is created not from this matter. From spiritual world.
So if it is so nice... Bhāgavata says yad-anudhyāsinā. Simply by following this procedure, yad-anudhyāsinā yuktāḥ, being engaged, karma-granthi-nibandhanam, the spool of the result of our activities one after another, chindanti, is cut off. Kovidāḥ, if an intelligent man is there, tasya ko na kuryāt kathā-ratim. Why an intelligent man should not engage himself in hearing about the topics of Kṛṣṇa? Is there any difficulty? If by this simple process you can cut off the eternal... Not eternal. Without any tracing of history... When my, this spool of fruitive activities has begun, we do not know. The result is that I'm simply transmigrating from one body to another. If this is stopped now, now if I get in my next body my eternal life, eternal knowledge and eternal bliss, why I shall not accept this? Kovida. Any intelligent man, why he shall not accept this process?
Nitya-baddha. This word is also technical. Nitya-baddha means ever-conditioned. There are nitya-muktas. Nitya-mukta means ever-liberated. In the spiritual world, there are also innumerable living entities. The... This material world is only one-fourth manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's energy, God's energy. And the three-fourths energy is manifested in the spiritual world. So we can just imagine that in one-fourth manifestation of energy of the Lord, we are so many living entities which is impossible to count. Now you can imagine how many more living entities are there. But here we are conditioned and they are liberated. Those who are conditioned, they are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. Nitya-baddha means we do not know when our, this conditional stage has begun. It is impossible to trace out the history. But we are conditioned. There is no doubt about it. Conditioned means no freedom. No freedom. As spirit soul we are free. Sarva-ga, we can go everywhere, anywhere. Even those who get some mystic powers by perfection of yoga practice, they can also exhibit some powers. So why? As we become free from material conditions, our original freedom comes.
Just like, according to Hindu civilization... Now, in this country, so the boys and girls who are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, previous to this, they were meat-eater. They were so many things which, according to brahminical religion, these are abominable condition. But see the practical. Even they were fallen this abominable condition some way or other, but because in the their last life they had some advancement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately they are taking up. So those who are joining in this movement, in this country, they were supposed to be previously Kṛṣṇa conscious. Somehow or other, they could not execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness in full. So although they are born in a country where there is no trace of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no, I mean to, even purity of life, still, they are taking up. So where is the loss? There is no loss. Nārada Muni wants to point out that anywhere... Bhagavad-gītā also confirms it, that one who has once taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, anywhere he is in the next birth, he will again take it up. This is natural.
So the Kali had to face so many difficulties to find out such place, because there was no place where illicit sex was going on, there was no place where unnecessarily animals are killed, there was no place where wines and intoxication used. So Kali found it difficult where to go. At the present moment we say the Kali-yuga is strong because everywhere you'll find these four sinful activities. Everywhere. That has become part and parcel of modern civilization. But up to the time of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, these sinful activities, nobody could trace out where it is. Therefore every nature's resources were supplied. Because after all, supply is being made by Kṛṣṇa through the agency of material nature. Material nature is not independent. Independent. Therefore we find... In your country there is no mango. Mango is supposed to be the king of all fruits. So in India there is sufficient supply. But in some year there is so much supply, enormous, and some year there is no supply. Similarly, grains also; in some year there is sufficient supply, and some year there is no... There is scarcity, famine. Then after all, you will have to depend on nature. You cannot produce in your factory these things which are received through these phalanty oṣadhayaḥ sarvāḥ. That depends on nature's gift. And the nature is working not independently. Nature is working by the order of Kṛṣṇa.
Karandhara: "As a person thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualifications, similarly, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the shadow of the moon. Similarly the crying child of the Lord is given over to the shadow of the material world to lord it over as a karmī and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history when the living entity desired this, but the fact is that as soon as he desired such, he was put under the control of ātma-māyā by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is 'mine' and this is 'I.' The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as 'I' or falsely thinks that he is the lord and that everything in connection with the material body is 'mine.' Thus in dream only the misconception of 'I and mine' persist life after life. This continues life after life as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord. In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream. And in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love."
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Devotees: All glories to you Śrīla Prabhupāda. (offer obeisances)
Trivikrama: Śrīla Prabhupāda? You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read...
Prabhupāda: The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am thinking, "Oh, tiger is there." It is simply dreaming condition.
So some way or other, originally, we are all Kṛṣṇa conscious, pure, svaccha. Svacchatvam avikāritvam. Now vikurvāṇāt, now, being transformed or agitated somehow or other... Anādi karama-phale, paḍi' bhavārṇava-jale. We cannot ascertain when this transformation took place. There is no necessity of making research how we fell in this material contamination or envelopment. But we should be intelligent enough to understand that we are fallen now. That is... How we fell—you can trace out the history, but it is very difficult because anādi karama-phale, nobody can ascertain. Just like when a man is diseased he goes to doctor. So when he goes to the doctor, the doctor gives him medicine according to the symptoms and the diagnosis. There is no necessity of find out the history, how he fell diseased. There is history, but that is not possible to trace out. Therefore it is said, anādi karama-phale. Anādi. Anādi means... Ādi means the creation. Creation... Before creation, I contaminated this desire, icchā-dveṣa samutthena (BG 7.27). I became revolting to the desires. Kṛṣṇa says... Every one of us revolting now also. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), but we are revolting, "Why? Why shall I surrender to You? This is too much You are demanding." This is going on. This is going on. This is the disease. And to cure the disease Kṛṣṇa Himself comes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmi (BG 4.7). But we are so stubborn that we won't, do not like to be cured.
Now, the question may be that the Indians or the followers of the Vedas... Now it has become so. Actually, the followers of Vedas are everyone. Every human being is the followers of Veda because the history of all other religions, they are all recent—one thousand year, two thousand years, three thousand years—but you cannot trace out the history of the Vedic religion. So from historical point of view, suppose one religion is current for the last three thousand years. Then what was their condition before three thousand years? So the natural conclusion is: as there was no such religion three thousand years and the Vedic religion has no history—it is coming from time immemorial—that was the religion. Take for example in India. Twenty years before there was no Pakistan, but now there is Pakistan. Under certain circumstances, the religious principle has changed, but originally every human being on this planet were following the Vedic religion. And another sense, everyone is following the Vedic religion if it is religion.
Whatever one may be in his past, that's all right. As soon as he is situated in pure devotee, devotional state, that's all. One hasn't got to inquire, "from the beginning" or "from the end." There is no need of such inquiry. As soon as he is situated in his original position, hitvā anyathā-rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6), gives up nondevotional activities, but is situated in devotional service, immediately he is all right, pure devotee. Doesn't matter whether he was in the beginning. Because even a person, ordinary person, ordinarily, he is not contaminated. He lives aloof from this material existence. But for sometimes, even if he is influenced, that doesn't matter. As soon as he comes to his real position, he is a pure devotee. There is no question of tracing his past history. There is no question. You be situated in pure devotional service; you are pure devotee. That's all. There is no question of inquiring what he was in the past. That doesn't matter. Is it clear? Yes. Just like Ajāmila. In the past history he, simply sinful, Jagāi-Mādhāi, simply sinful, but as soon as they come to the position of pure devotional life, he is pure. That's all.
So we Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees, we try to understand the Absolute Truth by the grace of the Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: (BG 7.7) "I am the Supreme." Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). In this way, if we try to understand Kṛṣṇa as He is speaking, as they are stated in the śāstra, as it is accepted by the ācāryas, then we can have some trace of the Absolute Truth. Just like Kṛṣṇa says,
- athavā bahunaitena
- kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna
- viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam
- ekāṁśena sthito jagat
- (BG 10.42)
The expansion of the Absolute Truth how it is working, so Kṛṣṇa summarized before Arjuna that this material world, material world... Ekāṁśena sthito jagat, this material world. What is that material world? This material world, we see only one universe to our vision. Similarly, there are millions of universes. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jadad-aṇḍa koṭi (Bs. 5.40). Jagad-aṇḍa means one universe. And in each universe, koṭiṣu aśeṣa. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭisv aśeṣu vibhūti-bhinnam (Bs. 5.40). There are millions of planets and each planet is different from here. That is God's creation. So all this together, ekāṁśena sthito jagat, this material world is one-fourth part exhibition of God's creation. And three-fourths' part is in the Vaikuṇṭhaloka, spiritual world. So by speculation, by our research, it is impossible, but we can get a glimpse of knowledge of the Absolute Truth when we receive it through the Absolute Truth, Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
So Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has taught us that how we shall preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Don't be disheartened because the police is obstructing, because the people are complaining. They will do that. Just like... Why this police and public? This poor, innocent boy, five years old, because he was chanting, his father became his enemy. His father, what to speak of others. So it is such a thing. In any... You try to trace out the history of the world, you'll find always persons who are for Kṛṣṇa or God, they have been persecuted. Lord Jesus Christ was crucified, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was caned in twenty-two market places, Prahlāda Mahārāja was tortured by his father. So there may be such things. Of course, Kṛṣṇa will protect us. So don't be afraid. Don't be afraid if somebody tortures us, somebody teases us. We must go on with Kṛṣṇa consciousness without any hesitation, and Kṛṣṇa will give us protect. If you are more tortured, then Kṛṣṇa will appear as Nṛsiṁha-deva and give you all protection. You are all Prahlāda, representative of Prahlāda. You keep your confidence in Kṛṣṇa, and He will give you protection, and go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "From that great lotus flower from which Brahmā is generated, certainly Brahmā could not see anything else except the big lotus flower. Therefore Lord Brahmā, diving within the water, executed austerity and penance for one hundred years but still could not get any trace of You. The reason is that when a seed is fructified, the original seed cannot be seen."
- tat-sambhavaḥ kavir ato 'nyad apaśyamānas
- tvāṁ bījam ātmāni tataṁ sa bahir vicintya
- nāvindad abda-śatam apsu nimajjamānaḥ
- jāte 'ṅkure katham uhopalabheta bījam
- (SB 7.9.34)
So from the beginning of the creation the same illusion is continued. Brahma, when he was born, created, he was created not by ordinary father and mother, but he was created on a lotus flower stem which grew from the navel of Maha Viṣṇu, er, yes, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Therefore Brahmā's another name is Aja. He's not born like ordinary human being. Svayambhū. He's also known as Svayambhū. Everyone is born by father and mother, but he was born... Of course, father was there, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, but he did not come through the womb of mother.
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
He's not imitating, or he's speaking falsely. He feels like that. A mahā-bhāgavata feels like that, that "I am the lowest." Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung, āmāra jīvana sada pāpe rata nāhika puṇyera leśa (?). He says like that, that "My life is always engaged in sinful activities. I've not a trace of pious activity." Āmāra jīvana sada ape rata nāhika puṇyera leśa. "I have given so much distress to all other living entities." He's representing common man. But he's feeling like that. It is not that artificially speaking. He's feeling like that. Just like Rādhārāṇī. She thinks always Herself as the lowest of the devotees. She thinks always. She sees always that the gopīs, other gopīs, they are better qualified to serve Kṛṣṇa. And She is not qualified, so much qualified. Therefore in Vṛndāvana, you'll find, the devotees approach Rādhārāṇī. "Jaya Rādhe." Because if Rādhārāṇī advocates for him to Kṛṣṇa, it is very easily accepted. And Rādhārāṇī says... If Rādhārāṇī's pleased, then She represents the devotee's case that "Here is a devotee. He's better than Me. Kindly accept his service, Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa cannot deny. So mahā-bhāva. Rādhārāṇī is mahā-bhāva.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
Nitya means eternal. Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, appearance and dis..., disappearance, is continuous and eternal. There is no stoppage. Lord Caitanya says, bujhite nā pāre līlā kemane 'nitya' haya. Ordinary persons, common men, cannot understand how kṛṣṇa-līlā, Kṛṣṇa's appearance and disappearance, can be eternal. Generally, we think that Kṛṣṇa appeared five thousand years before; now He's no longer. So either He's dead or gone. Just like ordinary man takes his birth and stay here for some time and then he goes away—no more, no trace of that particular man's activities. He's lost in the whirlpool of this material ocean. Neither exactly in a similar body, that particular living entity will again come back. Once. This form which you have got, material form, it is just like a bubble in the ocean. It is formed somehow or other according to our past actions and reactions, and it will stay for hundred years at most. Then it will disappear. And there will be no trace where that particular individual soul has gone. Of course, there is account in the books of Supreme Personality of Godhead. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26).
Yesterday we have been discussing two kinds of living entities. One class, nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, they never come to this material world. They are eternally liberated. And another class, just like we are, conditioned. We are eternally conditioned. Eternally conditioned means we do not know when we have been conditioned like this. It is not possible to trace out the history. Because living entity, by nature, he is not conditioned. But actually we see that we are conditioned, and there is no possibility to trace out the history. Many, many Brahmā's life... Not only one Brahmā's, there are so many Brahmās changed, and we are conditioned. So therefore we are called eternally conditioned.
So if you take history of any religious or any cultural program within this world, no religion, no cultural program is older than 2,000 years or 2,500 years. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, even according to history, it is five thousand years old, the older than any principles of religion or culture. And if you go above historical references, then it is coming down from millions and millions of years past, because it was first instructed, as we understand from the Bhagavad-gītā, that it was first instructed to Sūrya. Imaṁ vivasvate proktam: "I first of all spoke this science to Vivasvān, Sūrya." Sūrya means sun-god. So nobody can trace out history when sun-god took the lessons, but we can have little information from Manu-saṁhitā, because Manu's age, Vivasvān... This age is called Vaivasvata Manu. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that first of all this initiation was given by Kṛṣṇa to Vaivasvata, and he instructed his son, whose name is Vaivasvata Manu.
So many empires, they flourish sometimes. All fail. The Britishers, they were, two hundred years ago, they were planning to rule over this vast land of America. George Washington declared independence; their plan failed. Similarly, in India they were planning to exploit. Now Gandhi's movement made it fail. So this is bigger plan. Similarly smaller plan also. There are many... Individually, we make so many plans that "I shall be happy in this way, in that way, in that way." So this plan-making business is māyā, because that will never be successful. Trace out the history of the whole world. Nobody has become happy. Hitler made a plan, so great a plan. You see? He was frustrated. So the sane man, intelligent man... Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says that a person who is actually intelligent, wise... How a man becomes wise? After being baffled or frustrated many, many times, he can understand this is not the process. And the Vedānta-sūtra also places the first, athāto brahma jijñāsā. When one is frustrated in all plan-making business, for him, the Vedānta-sūtra gives him the opportunity, "Now your all plans have failed. Come here." Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now try to understand what is Brahman." This is the first aphorism of Vedānta-sūtra. Just try to understand Brahman.
Our awareness is there. You love somebody. But you are meant to love Kṛṣṇa, that you have forgotten. So forgetfulness is also our nature. Sometimes we forget. And especially because we are very small, minute, therefore even I cannot remember exactly what I was doing last night at this time. So forgetfulness is not unnatural for us. And again, if somebody revives our memory, to accept that, that is also not unnatural. So our loving object is Kṛṣṇa. Somehow or other, we have forgotten Him. We don't trace the history when we forgot. That is useless labor. But we have forgotten, that is a fact. Now revive it. Here is reminder. So take opportunity. Don't try to history why you have forgotten and what was the date of my forgetfulness. Even if you know, what is the use? You have forgotten. Take it. Just like if you go to a physician, he'll never ask you how you got this disease, what is the history of this disease, at what date, at what time you were infected.
So the Vedas instruct that there is a supreme leader. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). This (is) very important mantra in Kaṭha Upaniṣad. You have heard the names of Upaniṣad. They are Vedic literatures. Originally, the Veda was one, Sāma Veda. Then it was divided into four, Sāma Veda, Atharva Veda, Ṛg Veda, Yajur Veda. Then the Vedas verses were explained in Upaniṣads. There are 108 Upaniṣads. Then the whole conclusion was made shortened, cream. That is called Vedānta-sūtra. And again, this Vedic knowledge was, I mean to say, compiled in simple way for understanding of less intelligent class of men. That is called Mahābhārata. And in the Mahābhārata there is one chapter which is called Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is only a chapter of the great history of India, Mahābhārata. And then Vedānta-sūtra is described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Vedic literature is very old. Nobody can trace out the history. So far we understand, it is not man-made. It is coming out from transcendental world by disciplic succession.
This is the greatest drawback of material civilization, which is external manifestation of the soul. They are enamored by the glimmering manifestation of the cosmic body or the individual body, but they do not try to understand the basic principles of this glimmering situation. The body looks very beautiful working with full energy and exhibiting great traits of talent and wonderful brain work. But as soon as the soul is away from the body, all this glimmering situation of the body becomes useless. Even the great scientists who have discovered many wonderful scientific contributions could not trace out about the personal self, which is the cause of such wonderful discoveries. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement basically is trying to reach this science of the soul—not in any dogmatic way, but in complete scientific and philosophical understanding.
Just like this is material nature. He says, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ, bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20). Anya means another. "There is another nature, which is sanātana." Sanātana means eternal. There is no history of its beginning, or there is no end—that is called sanātana, eternal. Eternal means which has no end, no beginning. Nobody knows where it has begun and where it has ended. Nobody knows. Just like the Vedic religion is called sanātana-dharma because nobody can trace out when this Vedic religion begun. Therefore it is called sanātana-dharma. Every religion in our present experience, it has got a history. Your Christian religion, it has got a history, two thousand years old. Buddhist religion, it has got a history, 2600 years. Muhammadan religion, it has got a history, one thousand years. But if you trace out Vedic religion, you cannot find out the history, date. There is no date. You cannot find out. No historian can give. So therefore it is called sanātana-dharma. And in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says that "There is another nature, which is sanātana." Sanātana means there is no history of its creation or... But this material creation, as you know... We say, "God created."
So we all, conditioned souls, we are practically living in a place after paradise lost. We should understand this. So here the specific instruction is that deha-bhājām. Deha-bhājām means we have voluntarily or willingly we have accepted this material body. Actually, we are spirit soul. We should not have accepted this material body. But when we have accepted, how we have accepted, there cannot be any tracing of history. It is not possible. Anādi karama. Anādi karama. Nobody can trace out the history when we, the conditioned soul, accepted this material body. And deha-bhājām means that anyone who has accepted this material body... Not very big. There are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. Nine hundred thousand species of living entities in the water. Similarly, two millions species of life in the plants and vegetables. In this way, on the total, there are 8,400,000's of species of life. Unfortunately, this Vedic knowledge is not instructed in any university, but these are fact.
Similarly, Śrīmad-Bhāgavata says also, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā. Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā (SB 1.2.18). One has to cleanse all the inauspicious things within our hearts. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says also the same thing, that ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). We have to cleanse the dirty things accumulated in our heart since time immemorial. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said, anādi-karama-phale, pori' bhavārṇava-jale. We do not know when we have begun this conditioned life in this material world. You cannot trace. That is impossible, because this life is not only in this creation, but it is coming from another creation. Suṣupti. Now the creation is going on since the birth of Lord Brahmā, and it will continue for so many millions of years. Again it will be annihilated. As you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). This creation takes place exactly like your body, my body. The creation of this body takes place at a certain date.
They were direct disciple of Lord Caitanya. There are thousands of disciples of Lord Caitanya, but they are prominent, who gave very prominent service to the Lord by executing the mission of Lord Caitanya. By the order of Lord Caitanya they went to Vṛndāvana, and the present city of Vṛndāvana is the contribution of the Gosvāmīs. First of all Sanātana Gosvāmī went there, then Rūpa Gosvāmī. In this way the city was excavated. It was formerly, five hundred years ago, there was no trace where and how Kṛṣṇa līlā was performed in that tract of land. But when Caitanya Mahāprabhu went there, He first of all discovered Rādhā Kuṇḍa, the lake in which Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī used to take bath and Kṛṣṇa used to come. There is Śyāma Kuṇḍa also. The Śyāma Kuṇḍa, Rādhā Kuṇḍa, two lakes are still existing. Hundreds, thousands of people, devotees, go to see that lake every day.
Which one next? This is the original problem. Even the greatest scientist, one who wants to discover something... It is not that somebody wishes to do something, to discover—it immediately comes out. No. He finds it difficult; therefore he makes researches how to do it. So when he is very keen and persistent, then from within, the Paramātmā, when He sees that "This man wants to do it," so He gives him direction, "Yes, you do like that." He is not actually inventor or discoverer. He is not. He tried. "Man proposes; God disposes." Here is the Brahmā's problem is also. If Brahmā is self-sufficient to create, why he is in perplexity? He is in perplexity. Lord Brahmā, the first spiritual master, supreme being, supreme—he is supreme—could not trace out the source of his lotus... He could not trace out wherefrom he is born, and what to speak of other things. This is our intelligence. We do not know wherefrom we have come and where we have to go and why we are suffering. And we are proclaiming ourself M.A., Ph.D., D.A.C. and so on. But we do not know wherefrom we have come. Anyone, a scientist, any scientist, big scientist, M.A., Ph.D., D.A.C., ask him that "Wherefrom you have come and where you will go?" He cannot answer. He will think that "I have come from the womb of my mother. That's all." "Wherefrom you came to the womb of your mother?" "The father injected." "Where your father got you?" These answers he will give.
So this is the problem. Nobody is self-independent. Everyone is dependent on Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). Everything. Aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2), in Bhagavad-gītā: "I am the origin of all the demigods." The Brahmā is also demigod. Brahmā is born out of the lotus stem which is grown from the abdomen of Viṣṇu. So he has to find out the source of his birth. That is stated here. "Could not trace out the source of his lotus seat. And while thinking of creating the material..." Now, he was to create. He was born, he was given birth, just to assist Viṣṇu to create. Then he could not understand the proper direction how to create. These are the actual problems. Everyone is trying to create. The creative energy is there in every living entity because he is part and parcel of the original creator. But he cannot create independently. These rascals, they do not... They will say, "accident," "necessity..." What is that rascal? He has written book.
Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing Immanuel Kant. Basically, his philosophy seeks to trace the relationship between a priori ideas, or those ideas of the mind which are independent of sense experience, and the a posteriori ideas, or sense impressions. He wants to unify these two positions. So he wrote The Critique of Pure Reason, in which he asks the fundamental question, "How are a priori synthetic judgments possible?" In other words, how can we decide anything, judge anything? Where does this facility come from? What is the source of knowledge?
Prabhupāda: Intelligence. The source of knowledge is intelligence. Intelligence acts through mind, and then some conclusion comes. Man is mortal, so here is a man, intelligence; he must be mortal. This a priori idea means "I know man is mortal; therefore here is a man, he must be mortal." A priori means before. And what is the other?
Prabhupāda: That is in the relative world because here everything is relative. We cannot understand what is father unless he has got a son, and he cannot understand a son unless he has got a father. So similarly this world is like that. You cannot understand what is white unless there is black. And you cannot understand black unless there is white. So this is relative world, this is not absolute world. In the absolute world the black, white, everything is one.
Śyāmasundara: Well he says you can find out that absolute world by tracing out all of these black-white relationships in the material world. Eventually you come to the point of understanding the absolute.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Bhagavad-gītā says: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births when actually one comes to the understanding of the Absolute, he surrenders unto Me because I am the Absolute. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching to approach the Absolute. That is our...
Prabhupāda: That is, that is, I have explained in Bhagavad-gītā that a yogī remembers in due course, past activities, and again he begins. Where he left it, from that point again he begins. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yogo bhraṣṭo sañjāyate (BG 6.41). He is given the chance.
Kīrtanānanda: So all ideas can be traced back to the original substance which is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8). Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Everything from Me." Therefore if you get Kṛṣṇa, then you get all the substance. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). That is the Vedic statement. If you simply understand God, then you understand everything.
Śyāmasundara: So you say that form precedes idea.
Śyāmasundara: Form precedes idea, not idea precedes form.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we accept that. Form precedes idea.
Prabhupāda: That is not the question. Suppose if you have got life, I can kill you with a knife. But the question is, "Wherefrom this life came?" I can change, merely with a knife, your life. That is not very important thing, changing. The thing is to find out the origin, wherefrom the genes came.
Śyāmasundara: He has a book called The Origin of Species, and he traces back...
Prabhupāda: First of all, you are testing his knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: I'm trying to explain. You want to know what he thinks is the origin; so they trace back through geological excavation to the most simplest forms of life, and they see that in the...
Prabhupāda: What is the simplest form of life?
Śyāmasundara: They find at the lowest bottom of the soil layers which have built up through the years, they find small one-celled animal forms, sea shells, like that.
Prabhupāda: So how is it forming?
Śyāmasundara: Gradually, through the ages, they have become more and more complex to this age when...
Prabhupāda: What is the beginning?
Śyāmasundara: In the beginning they have found only the one-celled animals.
Śyāmasundara: There is also some scientific evidence that where there is land now, it was once water, and where there is water now, it was once land. That the oceans reversed...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we accept.
Śyāmasundara: ...so it's quite possible that if there were great civilizations existing, that they are all, all remains are swallowed. There's no trace.
Prabhupāda: That is, everyday you see. One day we walk on the beaches, and the next day it is covered with water. That is not very difficult to understand. But when the covered with water portion you cannot experiment, how you can say what is there within? Has Darwin gone within the sea, layers, studied the bottom of the sea?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. Where it has become land. And you find that there are sea shells, sea animals, in the layer, in the next layer up more complex forms, in the next layer more complex forms...
Prabhupāda: I mean to say, but there is already sea. Has he gone down the sea and excavated the level of the sea, gone down?
Karandhara: Even if they discount...
Prabhupāda: That you do not know. That you do not know. Not that he knows. Because we cannot accept that. Nobody has said that they have excavated down the bottom of the sea. But you also said that bottom may be opened at one, some time. So unless it is opened, your experiment is insufficient.
Hayagrīva: James writes of the characteristics of a sādhu in this way. He says, "There is a certain composite photograph of universal saintliness, the same in all religions, of which the features can easily be traced. They are these." And he numbers, "Number one: a feeling of being in a wider life than that of this world's selfish little interests; in a conviction not memerly intellectual, but as it were sensible of the existence of an ideal power. In Christian, saintliness this power is always personified as God." So that's the one characteristic of a sādhu.
Hayagrīva: A feeling of being in a wider life than that of this world's selfish little interest.
Prabhupāda: Yes. God, the definition of God is there in the Vedic literature, that God is the great. The Christian idea is also that. That greatness, that if we soberly think what is the greatness, the greatness in six opulences, that God is the richest, God is the strongest, and God is the famous, and God is the wisest, and God is the most beautiful, and God is the perfect renounced. He has got so many states, sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), but still He is not very much interested within this material world. He is in spiritual world along with associates. Therefore our proposition is, let us go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: So these things are very nicely described in Vedānta-sūtra, and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the right commentary on Vedānta-sūtra. Just like it is also philosophy, that what is the actual aim of life, or what is the Absolute Truth. So the Vedānta-sūtra is so nicely made, the answer is also there. The Absolute Truth must be that thing which is the origin of everything. Now Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam discusses what is the nature of that origin. This requires philosophical as well as authentic proof. Now, that origin, first of all the origin is conscious or not conscious. Origin, just like these some philosophers, they are tracing life from bones, tracing life. So now one should be intelligent enough to understand whether actually life can begin from bones and stones or life begins from life, actual life. So if the origin of everything, you can say the original source of creation or the creator, if you take it as creator, that we have to take. But creation does not take automatically. There is no proof. There is no proof. From matter, automatically creation takes place, that is not very perfect philosophy, neither one can support this view in the long run. Therefore Śrīmad-Bhāgavata says that the origin of everything must be conscious. And that consciousness, also, existence, existing eternally. Not that consciousness has developed under certain conditions. In this way Bhāgavata has explained, Vedānta-sūtra has explained the origin very logically and sensibly. So these answers are there in the Bhāgavata and Vedānta-sūtra.
Prabhupāda: That is natural, and everyone knows that's not a very (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: So he says that the cure for many of our present conflicts is to try to recall these painful experiences and analyze them and try to correct them.
Śyāmasundara: Just like for instance a person may have a hatred toward a member of the opposite sex. Why is this hatred? By tracing back in his childhood we may find that there was some horrible experience with his father or with his mother which caused him to hate that particular sex.
Prabhupāda: Just like if some woman does not like to give birth to a child...
Śyāmasundara: Because she was repressed when she was a child, or beaten by her father...
Prabhupāda: Not only that. A person does not like to bear children; therefore this contraceptive method is there. It is botheration, painful. It is called pain. (indistinct) (indistinct) means pain. So nature is prohibiting that, (indistinct), child delivery, so the man is also given so much trouble. The woman is also given so much trouble. So why is the trouble there? The (indistinct) for everything is don't be implicated in this sex life. If you simply tolerating a little itching sensation, then you will not have so much pain. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). These ordinary men who are attached to the materialistic way of life, their only happiness is this sexual intercourse.
Śyāmasundara: We have scientific reasons
Devotee: But there are aspects of Freud's philosophy and psychology which they feel have proven beneficial for mankind. So many cases of, say, someone is paralyzed and they can't find any direct physical reason why a person can't walk, and through analysis they are able to trace down that it is due to some repressed trauma, what they call trauma.
Prabhupāda: What is?
Devotee: And therefore the person reacts on a physical level and they can't (indistinct) psychoanalyzing him and having him recall that event, then he is free...
Prabhupāda: Therefore our prescription is that in the beginning of life, teach him brahmācārya restraint, and when he is grown up, he is above twenty, get him married. In the beginning he will learn how to restrain. If you teach your child to become saintly, he retains his semina, his brain becomes strong, he can understand things, because wasting your semina means less intelligence. So from the beginning, if he is brahmacārī, if he stops misuse of semina, then he becomes intelligent and strong and fully grown. For want of education, everything is being stunted-brain, bodily growth, and everything. So after he is trained as a brahmacārī, if he thinks that still he will have sex enjoyment, all right, he can be married. But because he will have strength of body and brain, he will beget a child, immediately there will be male child. This is practical remedy. And because he has been trained from boyhood to renounce this material way of enjoyment, when he is fifty years old, naturally his first-born child must be twenty-five years old, so he can retire from sex life. (indistinct), because household life means a license for sex life. That is all.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...I become afraid. Just like in that hospital, it was so nice, everything was so nice, but because I was thinking, "Oh, I cannot go out, I cannot walk," it was giving me too much trouble—that very thought that I cannot go out.
Devotee: (indistinct) sometimes they can't trace out the history of a particular case. The idea is that if they can find out from this person remembering back when they were young that he had been locked in a room, then (indistinct) the person was able to understand the significance of that incident, that it was really very small. Then it loses its importance in his life. He has been unable to resolve it because he has repressed it.
Prabhupāda: But I don't think when a man's brain is already deranged he can be rectified by finding out the cause.
Devotee: It's not that the trauma makes him crazy so that he cannot function in society. He could be a business executive who has claustrophobia; he can't stand getting in an elevator. He is leading a normal life in society but he has a problem which causes him a great deal...
Prabhupāda: So why not divert his attention to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) in support of our movement.
Devotee: According to our philosophy, everyone in this material world is under the spell of the material nature, māyā, "that which is not." So Freud observed that not only in crazy people, but in so-called normal people, everybody's lives are based on some types of illusion. So his psychoanalytic therapy is to trace out how I have come to this illusion or that illusion, that due to some childhood experience with my mother and father or my mouth or my genitals, something like that, all of these experiences are contributing to my unreal perception of the world. But the point which you made is that although he may have worked out what is one particular illusion, who is to prevent that there will not be another illusion? So our process is not to bother tracing out each and every illusion that we have, but to become free from the whole process of being controlled by illusory energy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our position: not to be affected by any more illusion.
Devotee: He was analyzing the details of the particular illusion, but we are becoming free from the whole influence of māyā.
Devotee (2): (indistinct) the fire is extinguished.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) taken him out of the fire, then he is ...
Devotee: But his one point is that Freud's theory underwent many changes. In the beginning...
Prabhupāda: Then (indistinct) because that is imperfect.
Śyāmasundara: These psychologists say that quite often the unconscious is acting through the conscious, only we don't know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I say. The subconsciousness is there, but they are not manifest. But sometimes they are manifest. All of a sudden coming. There is no connection. Just like a bubble in the pond. All of a sudden a bubble comes up. You see. So the coming out of the bubble, the energy was there within, all of a sudden it comes out, "Pup!" Yes. And even you trace out why it came, but the, it is to be supposed that it was in the subconscious state; all of a sudden it has manifested.
Devotee (3): The bubble coming up is a sort of a proof that there is a subconscious which is holding that bubble and then it's released it, but where it's parted by these psychologists is that the subconscious nature is moving subconsciously. What it means is that we're not conscious of it; it's acting in a subconscious plane.
Śyāmasundara: Called a shadow.
Devotee (3): And so our consciousness can be modified by our subconsciousness without our being consciously aware of it.
Prabhupāda: Not necessarily.
Śyāmasundara: One of Jung's favorite techniques for improving a person's personality is to force that person to bring up the demonic force in himself and treat it as another person. If the demon within me is not really me, it's another personality which causes...
Prabhupāda: That is not very important, how one becomes affected by some disease. But when the disease is there, the treatment must be there. That is natural. Instead of tracing out the history, what is the use? That the disease is there, make treatment and be cured, that's all.
Śyāmasundara: But this demon that haunts me, that is another personality besides my real personality.
Prabhupāda: That is not a... Personality, I am. Just like delirium, the same personality, but he's talking nonsense in delirium. If you remove the delirium condition, then he becomes again the original person. Delirium is not person.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.
Indian man: (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: When we say that a person is ghostly haunted, does that mean there is another personality which is inhabiting his...
Śyāmasundara: He says that "Material in itself is nonconscious, inert, fixed, opaque, uncreated, devoid of potency, lacking becoming, and without any reason for existing; therefore it is superfluous." In other words, existence doesn't have any meaning.
Prabhupāda: So what is the substance?
Śyāmasundara: Well, there is no meaning to anything. It's just here. There is no tracing out. It's not created; it's just here.
Prabhupāda: This kind of philosophy is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā as asuric philosophy, demonic philosophy, because the demons, they do not believe in any superior cause. They everything take as accidental. Just like a man and woman unite accidentally and a child is born. It is like that. There is no actually purpose. The Śaṅkara philosophy, atheistic Śaṅkara philosophy is also like that. Prakṛti and puruṣa meets. All of a sudden there is lust and they meet, and there is some product; otherwise there is no other cause. This sort of theory is called asuric.
Śyāmasundara: He says that these things have no reason for existing. There is no purpose.
Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. Everything has its purpose. Without purpose, nothing is created. And there is a supreme cause. So they have no brain to go farther. That is their defect. So what they superficially see, they take it. They do not find out the farther cause. That is less intelligent. Many modern scientists also say that simply explain "It is nature, nature." But we do not believe in such theory. We understand that the background of nature is God. Nature is not independent. Nature is phenomena; but the noumena is God, Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: They trace back... Their so-called evidence is just mostly see that geological calculations. They see that at a certain period... They go further down into the earth's surface.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Śyāmasundara: All kinds of life disappear and there is simply rock. And they say the beginning was merely rock and water; then organic life came out.
Prabhupāda: No. That is not organic life. The soul appears in different ways. One of the ways is by fermentation, perspiration. So rock and water, when it is decomposed there is fermentation and there is possibility of soul taking advantage and come out with a body. In any case, from matter life never comes. It is compared with... Taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya. A vṛścika, a scorpion, is coming out from rice. Actually, a scorpion down lays eggs within the heaps of rice, and by fermentation of the rice, heating, the egg, I mean to say, produces a small scorpion, and it comes out from the rice. So foolish people, they think that the heaps of rice is the cause of producing a scorpion. So many things come like that, but that does not mean the matter is producing life. If matter is producing life, the modern science, so much advanced, so let them prove in the laboratory, mixing some matter, life is coming. That fermentation, that is accepted in the Vedic language. By fermentation living creatures come out.
Hayagrīva: And that he needs only meet with some stimulus in order for these tendencies to be manifest?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when the, a dog, cat, is born it has no eyes, and it searches out the nipples of the mother. So although his eyes are all closed—you have seen the dogs—but because in his previous life as dog he had the experience where to find out the food, so even though it cannot see, it traces out where is the food. That is past experience and that is the proof of the continuation of the soul eternally. Just like I am living in this room and, say, for ten years I am absent from this room, but after ten years when I come here, immediately I remember where is the toilet, where is my sitting place, everything. So that remembrance comes from the last visit. So a living entity is passing through different species of form. That is his material life. So in some previous life, millions of years, when he was a dog, he knew where to find out his food, so immediately in the dog's body again, he remembers.