There is no question (Conversations 1976 Jul - Dec)

Prabhupāda: I may not show, but as I give you example, that you have manufactured 747 and God has manufactured mosquito. You do that. We are... I am layman, but I see there is another, better manufacturer than you. I may be layman, but I can see that you cannot do it. If you say you can do it, then you are rascal. I must say that you are rascal. First of all do, then speak. You take your credit, as much as you have done. But if you want to take the place of God, then we must slap you right and left. (laughter) We cannot give better credit than God to anyone. That is our business. Asamordhva. There is nobody equal to God, nobody is greater than God. This is our preaching. So you cannot claim equal to God. No question of becoming greater than God. You cannot become even equal to God. You are always under. You admit it, then we have no quarrel with you. You admit that "Yes, we are under God," then we are friends.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: And as soon as you say that you are equal or greater, then you are rascal. We must expose you, that you are a rascal. This is our business. Because we are servants of God. We cannot see anything blasphemy against God. That is not our business. We must chastise immediately.

Rūpānuga: In that way we can help the people in general.

Prabhupāda: Woman should be expert in cooking. That is their natural tendency. They should be educated how to cook nicely, how to please the husband, how to take care of the children. This is Vedic civilization. In the beginning a woman, childhood, she's trained up by the mother. Then as soon as she is married, formerly, child-marriage, so she's transferred to the care of mother-in-law. There she is trained up. Then she becomes very good housewife, takes care of household affairs, husband, children, and home becomes happy. What is this nonsense, divorce? There is no such thing in the Vedic civilization, divorce. You must accept whatever God has given you as husband or wife, you must. They had no thinking even, idea of divorce. One may not agree with the husband. That is natural. Sometimes we do not agree. But there is no question of divorce. When this divorce system was introduced?

Rūpānuga: Comparatively recent. Because for many years the Catholic Church forbade it. When did it begin?

Pradyumna: Henry the Eighth, the King of England.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he's the rascal.

Pradyumna: He had many wives, he wanted to divorce his wife and he could not under Catholic Church, so he started his own church, Church of England.

Prabhupāda: Because many wives were not allowed?

Hari-śauri: No, they had a system, one wife, but he got fed up with them. He chopped off the heads of two of them and then... It was considered a bit outrageous. So then he wanted to divorce and have another wife after the third or fourth one.

Prabhupāda: So he used to cut them, the head?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Rūpānuga: Treated nicely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not that because he is born of a dāsī no care should be taken. No, equal. But he cannot inherit the throne, that's all. There was no question. Even Muhammadans, they used to marry more than one wife. Two hundred years ago, one Muslim Nawab of Lucknow, Wazel Dusayet(?), he had hundred and sixty wives. The palaces are still there, Lucknow, hundred and sixty palaces. Why the Nawab? Our Kṛṣṇa, not hundred sixty but another zero, another, hundred sixty thousand, two zeros. Hundred sixty plus two zeros. They were not neglected. But He is God, He expanded Himself also, sixteen thousand forms, so that no wife would feel separation. So if one husband can maintain properly more than one wife, he's allowed. But the wife must be taken care of properly. Not that because I have got more than one wife, one is neglected, one is... No. She must be taken care of.

Vṛṣākapi: We were talking the other day, not in our society though.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Vṛṣākapi: Not in the ISKCON society, though.

Prabhupāda: Then the answer is the chicken is better than you. He can give you life within seven days. Dr. Chicken is better... They are shameless. Not ordinary, because ordinary a human being will become shameful to speak something nonsense. But they are shameless. In that Bengali, duḥkhānvita(?) One man, one ear was cut off. So in order to hide his cut-off ear he was keeping this side to the river side and this side to the habitation side. So then again his two ears were cut out. Then there is no question of hiding. Both of them were cut out. So these people are duḥkhānvita. When both the ears cut out, there is no shame. They will go on talking all nonsense. Because they are accepted. So many millions of years have passed in the history, nobody could do that, and they are giving hope that life will come after millions of years. Why million? Here is a chicken, he can give life within five days. What credit you'll get after millions of years? But they are duḥkhānvita.(?)So shameless they can speak such nonsense and still pass on as scientists. Tibocham,(?) I think. Duḥkhānvita. No shame, you do not feel that why you are talking nonsense. Am I right or wrong? Here is a chicken, insignificant animal, he is giving life within five days, and we are talking of millions of years, and still we are scientist, Dr. Frog.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are going to use that example in our preaching.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that these persons, they are holding the... Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). A blind man, he has no eyes, and still, he's leader of other blind men. Is it possible? A blind man, he is blind man, he has no knowledge, and still, he's leading other blind men. This is a very dangerous position. He has no actual knowledge, simply speculating, putting theories and formulas, and they are leaders of the society.

Rūpānuga: We have to stop this.

Prabhupāda: We think, according to our philosophy, everything is the property of the Supreme Lord, and we are all sons. So everyone has the right to use the property of the father. So that consciousness should be spread. This barrier of nationalism is against Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why there should be? Actually everything belongs to God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). The sky, the land, the water, they are all creation of God, God's property. But we should not take more than what is allotted to us. That is real life. Otherwise, I have practically studied that there is enough land. Just like in your country, in America, there is enough land, not utilized. They can be properly utilized, and if food grains are produced, there is no question of scarcity of food all over the world. Not only in America—in Africa, in Australia. (break) If we get nourishing food, every one of us, so there is no economic problem.

Mr. Boyd: How do we handle these people who don't seem to want to carry their own weight, though, Prabhupāda? The ones who don't want to work and help produce this food?

Prabhupāda: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training. Some section of the people, they should be very intellectuals, brain, just like to maintain this body we require first of all the brain. If the brain is not order, then other parts, they may be there, but they are also useless. So similarly, in the society, some intellectuals should be maintained. They are called brāhmaṇas, and some of the brāhmaṇas, they are sannyāsīs. They are simply meant for giving good instruction. They should personally become very good and intellectual, and they should give instruction to other people what is the value of life, how to live. This is one section. They should be free from the anxiety of maintaining themselves. The society should treat them as children and give them all necessities, bare necessities, not they are meant for living very luxuriously. No. Simple living. Then the next class, kṣatriyas, the politicians, administrators, they are also required to give protection to the people from injury. Kṣatriya, kṣat means injury, and trāyate, "one who saves people from injury." It is kṣatriya's duty. So kṣatriya should protect all the living entities, including the animals. They are also subjects. So the first, intellectual brāhmaṇas, then kṣatriya. Then vaiśyas, their business is to produce food. Food production you can do by agriculture, kṛṣi, and by giving protection to the cows.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of developing any particular qualification. Whatever qualification you are, if you agree to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the best qualification. It doesn't matter what material qualification you have. It doesn't matter. You simply acquire this qualification, that "From this day I fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa." That everyone can do. Is there any difficulty? Simply he must agree, this qualification. That depends on him, agree or not agree. If you agree, then you become qualified. If you don't agree, you remain disqualified. So that is intelligence. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of struggle, one who is fully in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān. Not the foolish. Foolish person cannot. But vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). You can become immediately mahātmā by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. That is intelligence. Why shall I wait for many many births to become a mahātmā? Let me surrender immediately and become a mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ bhajanty ananya-manasaḥ (BG 9.13)—chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, become a mahātmā. It is not very difficult. You can become mahātmā immediately, within a second. But the disease is that you'll not agree to Kṛṣṇa. That is the dangerous disease.

Dr. Sharma: When you say surrender, it means surrender of fruits of the action?

Prabhupāda: No, surrender your life. That includes surrender of fruits and everything. Surrender your life.

Prabhupāda: Legally or illegally, there must be some father.

Mr. Boyd: I realize that.

Prabhupāda: Illegally or legally, without connection with the father there is no question of children.

Mr. Boyd: But even this is being done artificially nowadays.

Prabhupāda: But artificially means that you accept the principle. So therefore we say that here is mother, land, and here is children, the plants, trees, birds, beasts, human beings. They are all coming from the earth. So mother is there, and the children are there. Then where is the father? You cannot say, "No, without father it has come." That is not possible. Then you are talking foolish. There must be father. This is conclusion. So how you can deny God? God is accepted in every religion as the supreme father or something like that, great. And God is there. But they say "Automatically coming" and big, big words. How do they explain? How things are coming from the earth, so many plants?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is by chance.

Prabhupāda: "By chance," just see. Is that explanation? Hmm? If one head is bald-headed, why by chance it does not come again, hair? And these plants and creepers are coming by chance, just see. We have to accept this explanation? (aside:) You sit down. That is for the outsider. So this is explanation by the scientist, "By chance." Just see. How fools they are.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Chance is their instrument of explanation.

Room Conversation -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: Just see how they are befooling persons. The law is cause and effect. Nothing is chance. There is cause, and there is effect. It is saying the same thing, that "This girl has produced a child by chance." It is not possible. Any sane man knows that she had connection with man, either legally or illegally. It is not chance. So there can... Nothing can happen as chance. That is imperfect knowledge. Wash out. But we know,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

a nādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(Bs. 5.1)

There is no question of chance. There is cause. So all right, thank you very much. (end)

Prabhupāda: Sthāne sthitāḥ... That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You remain your place, but engage your body, tanu, vāk, your words, and mind. Tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. Engage all these things for Kṛṣṇa. So tanu means senses. You hear about Kṛṣṇa and act for Kṛṣṇa. Then vāk, automatically, words, and mind also. If you hear of Kṛṣṇa, you'll think of Him. In this way there is no need of changing the place, Sthāne sthitāḥ. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi: "My Lord, You are Ajita, nobody can conquer You. But this person who has engaged his body, mind and words for Your service, he can conquer You." Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This was spoken by Lord Brahmā, that there is no question of changing position. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never says so, neither śāstras. But in a regulative way there are steps, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But on the transcendental platform these things are useless. Simply engage in the service of the Lord. That is mukti.

Dr. Sharma: I am thinking that when the Institute is formed, I shall perform all the services, whatever are needed to help.

Prabhupāda: Kindly do that.

Dr. Sharma: I'll be doing that. I'll be writing now, and...

Prabhupāda: Your family is also here?

Dr. Sharma: Yes, I will be married very soon, in about a month.

Evening Darsana -- July 13, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary... A boy, a girl or a man, a woman in relationship of love but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa or God. Premā pum-artho mahān, that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest (indistinct) when we come on the loving platform with God, then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the result was that he was killed by his own men, by his country men. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31), a little love for God can save you from the greatest danger of life. That is real love. So if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you can love with everyone. Just like we are spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is out of love for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we would have sat down at home and love Kṛṣṇa. Why you are trying to spread this love exchange to others? Because I know or we know that here in this material world, the so-called love exchange is frustrating, and people are being frustrated. So let him love Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be successful. This is our mission. Everyone has got loving propensity. So this child has now love for his mother, for the mother has got... But as soon as the child will grow, the love is finished, he will love somebody else. When he becomes young man, his love is transferred to somebody else. So here the so-called love is not permanent, but when you love Kṛṣṇa it is permanent exchange of loving humor or mellow. So that is required. Sai this called sai-eva. Sai(?) means permanent it will never end. You'll relish loving mellows eternal.

Interview with Newsweek -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: No, why you are curious about this? Whether I am retiring or not, that is...

Interviewer: What's the reason I'm curious? Ah, because we're trying to, at Newsweek, develop and try to understand what the trends are in religion, all types of religion, whether it be Christianity, Catholicism, Evangelicism...

Prabhupāda: Spiritual life is never retired. It is eternal. There is no question of retire.

Interviewer: I was wondering whether perhaps you would personally take a less active role.

Prabhupāda: No, I am not taking any very great active part. They are doing. I am simply reading.

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda is saying that the disciples are working so hard.

Interviewer: Oh, I see.

Rāmeśvara: But I was explaining to her that you are traveling all over the world, visiting your centers, and at the same time writing so many books.

Prabhupāda: That may be lessened. That may be lessened, but that does not mean retirement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He may not travel as much, but that doesn't mean retiring from spiritual life, because spiritual life goes on continuously at all times...

Interviewer: I didn't mean that he was retiring from spiritual life.

Hari-śauri: From management.

Bali-mardana: His main work is his books, so he'll continue that.

Interview with Newsweek -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: No, first of all about death.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The translation is, "For the soul there is never birth nor death nor having once been does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."

Prabhupāda: So there is no question of death for a spiritually realized person.

Interviewer: Is there any method for dissent within your movement? Or change?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Reform, you mean? Changing the teaching perhaps, to fit the times?

Rāmeśvara: Just like in the church, as the public mood is changed, they have compromised on certain issues like abortion, homosexuality, priests getting married. So she wants to know if in our movement there will be this arrangement also. (laughter)

Interviewer: Well, I didn't necessarily mean the specifics.

Bali-mardana: In other words the purity is maintained by... The system is perfect to begin with so it remains perfect by being unchanged. If the system is imperfect, you may always be questioning.

Interview with Newsweek -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Yes. When the system is imperfect, then it has to be changed according to time and circumstance. But if the system is itself perfect, there is no question of... Just like the perfect system: the sun rises from the eastern side. So for millions and trillions of years the system is going on because the system is perfect. It doesn't require change, neither you can change. You cannot ask the sun to rise from the western side. So if the soul is eternal, it does not die or it is slain after the body is finished. But that is eternal fact. Destined in the past present and future, everything.

Interviewer: How important is your physical environment to you? If this room is very lovely—it has light and space and air and flowers—is this important at all or would it be the same to you to be sitting out on the street?

Prabhupāda: No, why shall I sit if I can sit down on the open space anywhere, on the bank of the river, on the bank of the ocean. There are so many open spaces. You can sit down there.

Bali-mardana: Her question was, "Is your physical place important, surroundings"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So long I have got this physical body, I have to give some physical facility. Yukta-vairāgya. If I can write my books in a comfortable place, why shall I voluntarily go to a dark place? Material facilities, either dark place or lighted place, it is the same thing, but I'll have to accept which is favorable for me.

Interview with Newsday Newspaper -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: No, I say...

Interviewer: To the ability to speak. Now, how is your path or your way different from (or) better than others?

Prabhupāda: No, but there is no question of "better than others." It is the only thing.

Interviewer: It is the only way?

Prabhupāda: Only thing. It is not the question of better or superior. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness means God consciousness. So either you are Chinese or English or American, there is consciousness. When that consciousness is purified, that is God consciousness.

Interviewer: Yes. But is your way the only way?

Prabhupāda: No, that is only way. Because God is one and God consciousness is one, so when you are Chinese consciousness, that is foreign. Or either American consciousness, it is foreign.

Interviewer: Okay, I was speaking in an analogical way. There are different way to express oneself or different languages one can learn. Similarly, I would think there would be different ways to get to consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Different ways may be, but if you actually come to that consciousness, that different way is approved. Otherwise it is bogus.

Room Conversation -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: That's...

Indian man: And I do complete ārati and everything because I want your blessings. I wish that I have a guru like you every birth after birth. But one of the problem, Prabhupāda, personally, I have found among the Indian people is that because we are used to so many demigods, they still don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are so many arguments I get that like...

Prabhupāda: There is no question of argument. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, but if they do not accept Bhagavad-gītā as the authority, then they are fools.

Indian man: Yes, they are.

Prabhupāda: So fools cannot be enlightened. That is the difficulty. If they do not accept the authority, then they are fools.

Indian man: Yes. After I teach Gītā and I try to tell them to please sing...

Prabhupāda: That is not their fault. Even the big, big leaders of India, even Gandhi, they do not know actually. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. The Bhagavad-gītā has been misinterpreted, misused by the leaders, by the politicians, by the so-called philosophers. Everyone has misused.

Indian man: I'll tell you one thing, that Swami Chinmayananda...

Prabhupāda: He's a great...

Indian man: He's great, but I'll tell you what happened.

Prabhupāda: "Great" means great fool.

Room Conversation -- July 18, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Good determination.

Bali-mardana: They say that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa is very convincing. When he wants to persuade someone, the person must do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, just it would give... There are so many good... Of course, everywhere there are good devotees, but here there are so many strong preachers that if you stay here on the basis that they had to increase their preaching, we would double and triple our preaching. There's no question. We would throw out all considerations of inconvenience to ourselves and simply preach day and night.

Bali-mardana: Especially New York, the people are ready for it. Like today, they have taken part very nicely. Even the policemen.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they're so favorable. Rāmeśvara was commenting. He said he never saw... The climate of the people of New York is unique in America. They are very favorable.

Prabhupāda: So where is that man? Where he has gone? 7-UP can be had anywhere.

Hari-śauri: Well, it's Sunday evening. It's a bit difficult. He has to drive around in a car till he finds somewhere.

Bali-mardana: 7-UP? You want 7-UP? I can get it.

Hari-śauri: I sent Śravaṇānanda out to get it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the Bloopie's they can get it. Rādhāvallabha got it.

Bali-mardana: Not a can, though, just in a cup.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But how do they get it into the cup? Buy the whole bottle.

Morning Walk -- July 19, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Oh. And there was no sound, cutcutcutcutcut.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, because we put it very far away. In India that would be a nuisance, the sound of the...

Prabhupāda: So where is Ambarīṣa?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was not in the parade.

Bali-mardana: He is going back to..., I spoke to him for a little while. He's going back to Boston right after the parade, I think, with Aja? I spoke to him; he seemed to be a nice boy. I asked him, because we were meeting with reporters. So they like to ask who is giving you big donations. I wasn't sure whether he wanted his name to be used or not, but he said, "Oh, yes, you can use it without any question. I do not mind at all." (pause)

Prabhupāda: All right, go take rest, you have worked so hard.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we didn't. (end)

Interview with Religion Editor of The Observer -- July 23, 1976, London:

Cline Cross: I mean, what is your attitude towards Christianity?

Prabhupāda: Don't come to Christianity. I'm talking on religion, the science of religion. The religion... When we speak of religion, there is no question of Christianity or Muslim or Hindu. Just like when they speak of gold, gold is gold everywhere. Gold cannot be Muslim gold or Hindu gold or Christian gold. We are concerned with gold, not the country where the gold is produced. That is not very important thing. Whether it is gold, that is our business.

Cline Cross: I mean, would you count Jesus Christ as gold?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? He's speaking about the supreme controller, God, so why should we not? Anyone who is speaking about God... (break) Religion without science or philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. So they must be combined together. So far the controller is concerned, this is scientific understanding. Just like the father... We consider... Why we? Everyone. Either he is Christian or Muhammadan or Hindu, the conception of God is generally accepted as the supreme father.

Cline Cross: I mean, it is a fact.

Prabhupāda: It is fact.

Cline Cross: Yes.

Radio Interview -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mike Robinson: But are you saying that if we live a good life we in some way determine our future as well?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mike Robinson: So we are free to choose in so far as what we believe important. I mean religion is important, because if we believe in God and live a good life...

Prabhupāda: There is no question of believe. Don't bring this question-belief. It is law. Just like there is government, you believe or not believe, who cares for you? That is government. Similarly, you believe or not believe, there is God. If you don't believe in God and do independently whatever you like, then you'll be punishable.

Mike Robinson: I see. Does it matter what religion you believe? Does it matter which religion you believe? Would it matter if one was a devotee of Hare Kṛṣṇa...?

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of which religion, it is a question of science, that what is your position. You are a spiritual being, you are under the laws of nature. So you may believe.... Just like you may believe in Christian religion, I may believe in Hindu religion, but it does not mean that a Christian child is not going to become a boy. We are talking of the science, that the child become a boy. This is natural law. It is not that because you are Christian you are becoming a boy, or because I am Hindu I am becoming.... Everyone becomes a boy. So similarly, the laws of nature is applicable to everyone. You believe this religion or that religion, it doesn't matter.

Mike Robinson: So you're saying there's only one God.

Radio Interview -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. One God, one God's law, nature's law, and we are all under that nature's law, under the control of the Supreme. So if we think that we are free, we can do independently, that is our foolishness.

Mike Robinson: I see. Can you explain to me then what difference it makes being a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa movement means one who is serious to understand this science-he's member of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. There's no question of he belongs to some group, anyone, student. Just like in a college, students can be admitted. He may be a Christian, he may be a Hindu, he may be Muhammadan, it doesn't matter. It is a science to understand.

Mike Robinson: And what difference would it make to him, being taught what the Hare Kṛṣṇa people...

Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of education, that you are a spirit soul. Because you are spirit soul you are changing bodies. This is the understanding, beginning A-B-C-D. So when the body is finished, annihilated, you are not finished—you get another body. Just like you have got this coat and shirt. If you change tomorrow, you come to me in another shirt or another coat, that means you are not finished. This science has to be understood. Then one can make progress about the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

Mike Robinson: I'm beginning to understand. What I'm finding difficult is, for instance, we see on Oxford Street a lot of people who are handing out Hare Kṛṣṇa literature. Now...

Radio Interview -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. If the cow-eaters can come and take it free of charge. (laughter)

Mike Robinson: Well, let me know, you know.

Prabhupāda: You can get the skin free of charges. In India still, there is a class, they, when the cow dies, they are called, they are called chamar. So he comes, take away the animal, dead animal, and they eat the flesh and take the skin, make shoes. They get all, everything free. There is no question of going to the butcher's place to purchase. So this much patience they have got, that "We want to eat this cow. All right, let us wait till her death." No, immediately. Just see, what a civilization. And cow is giving milk, she is mother. Killing the mother. Do you think it is civilization? Mother who has given you milk in your childhood, and maintained your life, and because she is old, cutting throat. Is that good civilization?

Mike Robinson: Seems silly, doesn't it. Umm, I think are you keeping cows here?

Jayatīrtha: Yes. We have about twelve cows here.

Prabhupāda: We have got many farms all over the world. They are living very happy. Have you got some pictures?

Jayatīrtha: Of the cows?

Prabhupāda: No, of our farms, farmland. Leading very simple life, in your country, in, I mean to say, America, Europe. Very simple life. Food grains and milk. You can prepare hundreds of nice preparations, full of vitamins, nutritious. And they do not know how to live civilized life.

Jayatīrtha: Here are some nice pictures here. Some of our cows, you see this small one. And here's one of our farms in West Virginia in America. There's over a hundred and fifty cows in this farm.

Room Conversation -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: Just like George. What is his value? He's artist, that's all. From educational point of view, from things other view, he does not know anything. But he has got some money on account of his artistic play on it(?), and he's big man, that's all. Somehow or other get money, you become a big man. There is no question of culture or anything. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. The money will be the criterion—no family, culture, education. These things will not be taken into account. If you have got money, then you are big man. Never mind what you are. Therefore people are after money. Who is going to be brāhmaṇa? If you become a perfect brāhmaṇa, who will care for you? Nobody is interested to become a brāhmaṇa. "Why we shall become brāhmaṇa? Starve? For starvation?" Nowadays the colleges, they're not interested in art, philosophy, English literature. No, they.... Nobody.... They go for technical, how they will get more money. They do not want. Some of the doctor, professor, they came to request us to give our student. They are not getting student. And after few years they'll be all dismissed. Who will pay them? Hayagriva told me. He's not getting any job. There is another, Mr., Dr. Henderson. He's also not getting any job. He's selling insurance. And Bon Mahārāja, his institute is suffering from the very beginning till now, simply begging, begging and paying, paying the professor. No student. First of all he started Vaiṣṇava philosophy, so doctorate, Ph.D. So especially in India, who is going to take Ph.D. in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and starve? So this is failure. It is already failure, but he is persistent.

Bhagavān: Therefore people are very surprised we are not starving.

Prabhupāda: Why we shall starve?

Bhagavān: We are not starving.

Room Conversation -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: So the communist teaching that "You love Lenin," and the capitalist teaching that "You love Washington," so nobody's satisfied. Unless the love comes to Kṛṣṇa, there is no question of satisfied.

Jayatīrtha: There's no reciprocation.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, there must be defect because the love is reposed in some defective or imperfect personality. It may be Lenin or it may be Washington. It doesn't matter. He's imperfect. Love is there. Otherwise why so many people are working? But because it is misplaced, they are not satisfied. Therefore it is stated, yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Adhokṣaje, this word, is used. God.... They may say that "Where is God?" And therefore the word is adhokṣaje: "beyond your sense perception." Everything is within sense perception. So therefore this very word is used, that "You cannot see, you cannot perceive, but still, you have to love Him." Adhokṣaje. They say, therefore, that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is some ideal, imagination, Kṛṣṇa. They think.... They say, I have an imaginary form of Kṛṣṇa, a stone, and "Unnecessarily they are wasting their time, loving Kṛṣṇa." What is their theory? You know that?

Harikeśa: Some people think.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are some. They are not all. Even they criticize that "You cannot see Kṛṣṇa." So similar argument can be, "You do not see Lenin. Why you are worshiping?" That's it. "Is Lenin present before you? So why you are worshiping?" You'll see. You have got, in Moscow got, every street corner a big picture.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Bhūgarbha: So he's changing smārta, now he's turned different.

Prabhupāda: No, he has no training in bhakti.

Bhūgarbha: He said one nice thing. He said that without Jīva Gosvāmī's Ṣaṭ-sandarbhas there's no question of understanding Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhūgarbha: He made that statement.

Prabhupāda: I met him when he was in Delhi once.

Bhūgarbha: We were very inspired in Delhi, that almost every college we went to, they already had your three books, and the librarians, they would remember. We would ask them "When did you get these books?" They'd think, "Well, about ten, twelve years ago, some sannyāsī came. We purchased."

Prabhupāda: So they remembered.

Bhūgarbha: They were (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: So now they took others?

Room Conversation -- August 2, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Hari-śauri: Seems everything is devolving at a phenomenal rate. Every decade that passes, everything breaks down twice as fast. Just in the last twenty years or thirty years everything has become so much degraded and...

Prabhupāda: No, I have got experience. I am Calcutta born. What Calcutta was in our childhood days and what is now, I know everything. How we were happy during British days and what is now position, I can speak from my personal experience. We do not belong to the richest class nor to the poor class-middle class. So we have got practical experience. My father's income was not more than 250 rupees. How opulent we were. At least, there was no question of need. We were receiving daily four, five guests, and my father was functioning so many festivals and he was asking... My father gave in marriage four daughters. There was no difficulty. The income was not more than 250 rupees. Of course, that 250 rupees at least ten times now. But still, there was no needy. Not very opulent, but there was no need. The first necessity is to feed and to clothe. So there was no such scarcity. May not be very luxurious life, but there was no scarcity for food and shelter or cloth. There was no scarcity. Happy. That is wanted. Happiness in whatever circumstance. Not that because we did not possess a motorcar, therefore unhappy. I purchased one motor car in 1925, Buick car. Not for personal use, but for using it as a taxi. My one nephew, he was a good driver, so my father, "Why don't you give him? He can do that, we can use it our own car also taxi." So I took it, Buick car, I think I paid eight thousand rupees.

Hari-śauri: Buick?

Prabhupāda: Buick, yes, very strong car. At that time, Ford, Chevrolet and Buick, these cars were very popular in India. Ford for the poorer class and Buick for the first class.

Hari-śauri: Your nephew was a taxi driver.

Room Conversation -- August 2, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Penang also I visited. I stayed with one Indian gentleman. His wife made very nice kacuri.

Hari-śauri: It doesn't matter wherever you go around the world...

Prabhupāda: They asked, "What you want to eat?" "If you can, you make first-class kacuri." That is from my childhood. My friends also did it. They'd make the first-class kacuris in my youthhood. I am fond of kacuri. Kacuri is made first class in Mathurā. Agra and Mathurā. Very, very nice. The kacuri is being made, hundreds of customers waiting. At shops, there was many shops, waiting for purchasing. And as soon as it comes out of the pan, immediately sold. There is no question of waiting. They make spice nicest. That is India's craftsmanship. Nobody will starve. If you have no business, you prepare something palatable, and people will purchase, all over India.

Hari-śauri: There's so many people on the railway station selling.

Prabhupāda: There's no question of starvation for want of money. Anywhere sit down and do something palatable, and people will purchase. So your livelihood will go on. Pakorā, kacuri, jalebi, anything. You make some palatable, people are fond of eating some palatable things. That is their hobby. In Allahabad, there was a brāhmaṇa. I had my business, and he was neighborhood, he was living. So in the morning, the husband and wife would go to take bath in the Ganges. They would very nicely take bath, and while coming they will purchase some ingredients and then come home. The husband will perform pūjā, etc., and the wife will prepare many nice preparations-baḍā, pakori, puskar (?), this, that. Then he'll take his meals, rest awhile, and in the evening he will sit down, he was sitting just in front of my shop, about four or five o'clock. All the preparations his wife had made whole day, and the small shop. And the university students will come up to night, ten o'clock, he'll finish. Nothing will remain. Everything will be... And he'll make at least ten rupees profit, minimum. In those days, 1925, in those days ten rupees means nowadays at least fifty rupees. So, and living very happy. Living humbly as a brāhmaṇa, he was having his pūjā, going to the Ganges, taking bath, husband and wife, in the morning, and the wife's business is to prepare and his business was to sell. So they'll make at least ten, fifteen rupees profit daily, very prosperous. Living peacefully, husband and wife. There are many such families. The... If wife is very good, then his home is very nice. They cannot be unhappy at any circumstances. Dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ.(?) Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. When there is full agreement between husband and wife, cooperation, then the goddess of fortune comes there without application. You haven't got to ask goddess of fortune, "Please come and help me." She'll come automatically. This is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction.

Room Conversation -- August 3, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not possible for us. We welcome. But we must be well organized to utilize these poor souls for becoming first-class devotees. That should be done. Otherwise, sex life and the by-product, that is always troublesome, either you take this way or that way, it is troublesome. If it is not troublesome, why they are killing their own children? To avoid trouble. This is psychology. They want to avoid trouble. But our process is, if you want to avoid trouble, then don't marry, remain brahmacārī. If you cannot, then, all right, have legal wife, get children and raise them very nicely, make them Vaiṣṇavas, take the responsibility. So we are organizing this society, we welcome. Some way or other we shall arrange for shelter. But to take care of the children, to educate them, that will depend on their parents. Now our Pradyumna was complaining that in the Gurukula, his child was not educated to count one, two, three, four. So I have told him that "You educate your child. Let the mother educate in English, and you educate him in Sanskrit." Who can take care? So similarly every father, mother should take care that in future they may not be a batch of unwanted children. We can welcome hundreds and thousands of children. There is no question of economic problem. We know that. But the father, mother must take care at least. Properly trained up, they should be always engaged. That is brahmacārī gurukula. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). From the very beginning they should be trained up. From the body, they should be trained up how to take bath, how to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or some Vedic mantra, go to the temple, offer obeisances, prayer, then take their lunch... In this way, they should be always engaged. Then they'll be trained up. Simple thing. We don't want to train them as big grammarians. No. That is not wanted. That anyone, if he has got some inclination, he can do it personally. There is no harm. General training is that he must be a devotee, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That should be introduced. Otherwise, the gurukula will be... Otherwise Jyotirmayī was suggesting the biology. What they'll do with biology? Don't introduce unnecessary nonsense things. Simple life. Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply let them be convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is our duty to serve Him, that's all. Huh? (indistinct) What is that? māyār bośe, jāccho bhese' Khāccho hābuḍubu bhāi jīv kṛṣṇa-dās ei biśwās korle to ār duḥkho nāi. So organize. If you have got sufficient place, sufficient scope, let them be trained up very nicely. If some four, five centers like this there are in Europe, the whole face will be changed. Important places like Germany, France, England. Now we are getting place. I like that place, German, on account of this. It has got scope.

Meeting with Italian Printer -- August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Why difficult? Obstinacy. It is not difficult, it is obstinacy. "I'll not take," obstinacy. It is not difficult, it is obstinacy. A child can take.

Translator: He says for a child it is actually simple because he's pure and can accept everything we present to him. But he says for us who are older and already engaged in so many contaminated activities...

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question. It is apratihatā. It cannot be checked by old age or any material condition. He can accept.

Translator: (translating) It's not up to me, though.

Prabhupāda: Apratihatā.

Translator: He says we're always forcing him to take prasādam. This is not freedom. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes, this child has to be forced to do something. For his interest.

Bhagavān: Prabhupāda once gave the analogy sometimes when the horse is sick, the doctor takes the pill in the hand, he puts it down the throat.

Prabhupāda: No, we are prepared. Just like horse is not prepared to take the medicine. But four men force him to take the medicine. Nobody was crying for this edition of Bhāgavata, but we are forcing, "You must read. You must take." We are printing and forcing everyone. French edition, Bhāgavata's edition, they were not dying for this book, but this is our force.

Room Conversation with Professor Francois Chenique -- August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Oh. The definition of religion is just like law. Law can be given by the government. You cannot make law. If you make at home some law, nobody will touch it. It is not obligatory. But if government says "Keep to the right," it is obligatory. This is law. So religion, you cannot manufacture religion. Religion means the word of God. And if yearly or quarterly you change the words, that is not religion. That is not religion. That is mental concoction. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. No change. Others, they are interpreting in their own way. That is not Bhagavad-gītā. That is something else. (to devotee:) Keep it there. He will take. In the words of God there is no question of changing. You cannot change. As soon as you make a change, immediately it is material; it has nothing to do with spiritual world. The same example, the law of government is one, and if you make change, that is not law. Government says "Keep to the right," you have to keep to the right. You cannot make "Keep to the left," no. That is nowadays happening—which edition of Christianity? There are so many. Therefore it is, the purport of Christianity is lost. That is lost. You have, what that verse I wanted?

Hari-śauri: They couldn't find the book.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means... There are two things within our experience. Matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, now the body is useless, throw it away. Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Antavanta ime dehā. Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ. So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter.

Pradyumna:

antavanta ime dehā

nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ

anāśino 'prameyasya

tasmād yudhyasva bhārata

(BG 2.18)

"Translation: Only the material body of the indestructible, immeasureable and eternal living entity is subject to destruction; therefore, fight, O descendant of Bharata."

Prabhupāda: Only the material body is subject to destruction.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the body's destructible, but the spirit soul is not destructible. When you understand this point, then we understand what is spirit, and then spiritual culture begins. Without being convinced of this spirit soul, there is no question of spiritual culture. So the spirit soul is described as eternal. And the proof is given, eternity. Just like there are so many children. They'll grow up from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood. The body is changing. This is very practical. But the spirit soul is there, the same spirit soul which was within the womb of the mother in a small body. Then coming out of the mother's womb, the same spirit soul is there, but the body is different. In this way, the body is being situated in different status, but we know that the proprietor of the body is the same. Is there any difficulty to understand? Anyone? The body is changing, that's a fact. You are young man. You'll have to become an old man like me. That means body will change. But so far you are concerned, you are the same. So, the body changes and the spirit soul remains the same. This is to be understood first of all. What is the difficulty? First of all, you must distinguish what is spirit, what is matter. Material culture means this body is there, it requires some necessities. The body must be given something to eat. Is it not? Eating? Then the body must be given some rest, sleeping, for which we require some apartment, some place. Not we, but also even the animals, birds, they have got their nest, or the animal has got some hole or something. So eating, sleeping, and some sense gratification, sex. These are bodily necessities. But when you understand what is spirit, then we must try to find out what the spiritual necessity is. That is spiritual culture. You cannot go on with the bodily culture as spiritual culture. That is a mistake. Spiritual culture is different from the bodily culture. And when we understand it, then there is no question of Iranian spiritual culture or Indian spiritual culture. Spiritual culture is one. As bodily culture is also one. It does not mean that only Indians eat and the Iranians do not eat. The Iranians also eat, because they're bodily necessities. Similarly, spiritual culture also, there is some necessities which is equally needed by the Iranians, by Americans, by Indians. It is not... Just like when we say that the child grows to become a boy. This is not applicable only to the Indians or Iranians. It is applicable everywhere. Child grows everywhere. You cannot say this is Indian or Iranian. It is everywhere. So if we understand what is spiritual culture and what is material culture, then there is no question of Iranian or Indian or English or American. Spiritual culture is the same everywhere. So any question on this point?

Prabhupāda: No, rituals, this will come later on. First of all, let us understand what is matter, what is spirit. Unless we understand what is matter and what is spirit, there is no question of spiritual culture. Therefore you'll be misguided. By material culture, you will pass on as spiritual culture. And that is going on.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the goal once one understands what is spirit and what is matter, what is the goal past that?

Prabhupāda: Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like, you can go immediately, but this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move. Because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities, eating, sleeping and sex and defense, then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human beings. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand. This is spiritual side, this is material side. The spiritual side is important. Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side. They can take care of the material side.

Prabhupāda: In the material world there cannot be any peace, justice, morality. It is not possible. You may try to make some adjustment, but it will never be possible. So, by their concocted imagination, they are thinking, "This way will be beneficial," but unless they come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of peace, prosperity, justice. It is not possible.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param

(BG 18.54)

Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying: the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists, to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform. It is threefold miserable conditions. Just like we are trying to avoid some miserable condition, very insignificant—to get out of the disturbance created by the mosquitoes and the flies. We are trying our best, but still they are disturbing. Is it not? Still they find out some loopholes and go in to the room and disturb you. So you cannot avoid. Similarly, the disturbances of nature: the severe cold, scorching heat, how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Adhyātmic, you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, bit still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice. So these things will go on. Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Now unless you enter into the kingdom of God, you'll not feel full satisfaction. Even if you go to the moon planet or Mars planet, there is no question of satisfaction.

Atreya Ṛṣi: So your question is whether one can enter this kingdom of God with this body.

Prabhupāda: No, that is already explained—tyaktvā dehaṁ. Giving up this body, one can enter in the spiritual world. Viśate tad-anantaram—after death. By bhakti, when he's mature and he gives up this body, then he enters into the spiritual world. Tyaktvā deham, giving up this body. You cannot enter, although by devotional service the material activities of the body will stop, but you have to wait for the moment when this material body is no more existing, then with spiritual body you can enter. Tyaktvā deham, mām eti. Viśate tad-anantaram. Tad-anantaram after death. And if you have got little pinch of material attachment, then you'll have to accept another material body. So we have (to) come to the point that no more I want anything material. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). I am no more anyone's servant. I am neither American nor Iranian nor Indian nor Hindu nor Muslim, not this, not that, I'm simply servant of... That is my position. And so long I shall keep attachment for this designation, temporary... What is this Iranian, American, Indian? Say for few years. Because you have to change this body. Tyaktvā deham. Tathā dehāntaram. So after giving up this body, you have to accept another body. If I am in the next body I become a sparrow, then where is my conception of Iranian, Indian and Hindu, and Muslim? I am a sparrow. Jumping like sparrow, that's all. So these are designations, temporary designations. So one has to become free from these temporary designations. Then he's liberated. That is bhakti.

Prabhupāda: So this life should be utilized for purifying ourself from this designation. If you keep the designation then there is no possibility of purification. You'll get another designation. Now we are Indian or Iranian, next a sparrow or a crow or a tree or a demigod. Another designation. Just like the same, the child, a baby, on the lap of the mother, a baby, and another designation, boy, another designation young man, another designation, old man. But the spirit soul is the same. He's simply changing designations. So freedom means freedom from all these designations. I am spirit, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. I am spirit soul, my business is spiritual activity. So long we want to keep designation, you'll have to accept material body and suffer. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to educate people how to become free from designations. Therefore we accept from any group. If I think that he is under designation... But our business is to make him free from the designation. We therefore welcome anyone. He may come with designation, but if he lives with us, he follows our rules and regulations, he becomes free from designation. And this so-called designated religious system will not help us. If we keep ourself on the designated platform—I am American, I am Indian, I am Iranian, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian, I am Buddhist—then we have to continue in that designation. There is no question of freedom. That requires tapasya. That designationless status is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. And the opposite of brahma-bhūtaḥ is jīva-bhutaḥ. Jīva-bhutaḥ, there are so many jīvas, living entities. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." And the bird is thinking, "I am bird." The man is thinking, "I am Hindu, I am Muslim." So this designation, you may be a dog designation or Hindu designation, or Muslim, they are the same. There is no difference. Maybe some degrees. But one has to become designationless. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then bhakti. When one is designationless. If he wants to keep his designation, then there is no question of bhakti. The bhakti line is so nice that if you take to bhakti line, automatically you'll be designationless. Now you have to decide whether you want to keep designation or become free from designation.

Evening Darsana -- August 9, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: There are so many examples. There are so many examples. The beginning stage and the perfect stage. Perfect stage, designationless. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, in the beginning api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ: (BG 9.30) even he's not completely a devotee, still, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. You must accept him as a devotee. Why? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. He has taken to the process completely. So there may be some designations always on account of past habit, but because he has taken to the process of becoming designationless, he is sādhu. If he sticks to the principles, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati, very soon he'll become a perfect devotee and he'll get peace-śaśvac-chānti-kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). These things are there. So one has to take the line of Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, then everything automatically will appear. There is no.... That is called utsāhān dhairyāt, dhairyāt, patience. Niścayād; "I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness exactly as Kṛṣṇa wants, then I'll surely be perfect." That is niścayād. There is no doubt about it. If I am following the direction of Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of spiritual master, be sure that you'll be successful. There is no question of becoming unsuccessful. Niścayād. But if I am deviating, that is my (indistinct). But if you follow, then you'll be sure to be successful.

Jñānagamya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that what Lord Caitanya is trying to teach Haridāsa Ṭhākura when he says, "Put away your excess humility."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: That training is given here, spiritual training.

Ali: And therefore, how am I to understand?

Prabhupāda: To understand, you have to take the training, spiritual training. You have to understand the words which God wants to let you know about Him. These are spiritual training. Spiritual training means first of all you must have little faith that "I shall be intimately related with God." Unless you have got this faith, there is no question of spiritual training. If you simply remain satisfied, "God is great, let Him remain at His home, let me remain at my home," that is not love. You must be eager to know God more and more intimately. Then the next stage is how to know about God unless you associate with persons who are simply busy in God's business. They have no other business. Just like we are training people, they are simply meant for God's business. They have no other business. How people will understand about God, how they will be benefited, they are simply planning in so many ways. So we have to associate with such persons who are convinced about God and trying to spread His knowledge throughout the world. You have to mix with, associate with them. First of all, you must have faith that, "In this life I shall understand thoroughly about God." Then associate with persons who are busy with God's business. Then you act as they are acting. Then your misconception of material life will be finished. Then you'll have attachment. Then you'll have taste. In this way you'll develop love of God.

Ali: I already have the faith.

Prabhupāda: That you have to increase. Simply the preliminary faith, that is very good, but unless that faith is increased more and more, then there is no progress.

Evening Darsana -- August 9, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ali: But I'm also aware that I'm very ignorant.

Prabhupāda: No, if you are aware of that thoroughly, then there is no question of ignorance.

Ali: But I feel the presence of the spirit is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that everyone knows the distinction.

Ali: But, uh, the relativity...

Prabhupāda: Yes, so that requires the training and guidance of spiritual master. Therefore called spiritual master. You have to... Just like if you want to be an engineer, you must be trained under some engineer. Similarly, if you want to be trained up spiritually, then you must accept a spiritual master. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) must, otherwise not possible. Training. So spiritual master trains with these books, and explanation, practical demonstration. In this way the student makes progress spiritually.

Ali: I am a Muslim and I practice dervishism.

Prabhupāda: That, that... This is also a misunderstanding. You are thinking you are a Muslim. Why?

Ali: It's just by normal definition.

Evening Darsana -- August 9, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Yes, name means authorized. Name means authorized. Not fictitious. If you chant fictitious name, that will not be effective. But if you chant real name of God, then you'll be purified. So if you have got name of God, chanting, there is no question of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. You chant. If you have got the name, real name of God, chant it. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ. God is unlimited, therefore He must have unlimited names also. But the name must be God's name; then you chant, you'll be purified. So there is no question of sectarianism in this movement. We are recommending that you chant the holy name of the Lord. Do it. Is there any objection? Suppose you say that you are Muhammadan. If I say you chant the holy name of God, have you got any objection?

Ali: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have got objection?

Ali: Oh, no, no, chanting, I do chant myself.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all. We are preaching this. We don't say that you become one of us. You chant the holy name of the Lord, that's all.

Ali: There's no such thing as "one of us," "one of you," anyway, because the thing is the same. If one is true (indistinct) there is no difference.

Prabhupāda: You have got independence to misuse your independence. That independence you have got. You have been given intelligence. Now you have got, because you have got intelligence, little independence, you can misuse that. Just like you are all my secretaries. So I give you some independence. You can misuse it. So that misuse is wrong. Then you'll become unhappy. Kṛṣṇa says that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Says. He doesn't force you—you must do it. You do it. That means independence. Now it is your choice. You have got independence of misusing it. So independence is a quality inherent in living beings, because he's part and parcel of God. The quality of the father is inherited by the son, even physically. Similarly, you have..., God is fully independent, you have got little touch of independence. Now that independence is properly utilized when you carry out the order of God. That is proper. Ordinarily, every country is independent. Does it mean that he is cent percent independent? No. Then why there is police department? Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. We have got little independence. But if we misuse it, then we shall be punished. So there is no question of independence. Independence, little. That is interdependence, not independence. Why they declare independence? That is their foolishness.

Hari-śauri: It's always very relative.

Prabhupāda: Not absolute. Absolute independence, God. Even if you have got little independence it is relative, under condition.

Prabhupāda: He's not... Just like the same question, a criminal, if you say, "In the beginning, how he became criminal," is that very intelligent question? What do you think? A prisoner, criminal, is living in the prison house since a long time, and if you raise this question, "In the beginning, how he became a criminal," is that very intelligent question?

Atreya Ṛṣi: No, but not everyone is prisoner.

Prabhupāda: No, this question. Anyone can become criminal, any moment. There is no question of beginning. At any moment you can begin. You are honest gentleman, very good. You are working in a nice spot. At any time, any moment, you can become a criminal and go to prison house. That is... You are prone to... As soon as you misuse your little independence, you become a criminal. That is the difficulty. You have got some independence. As soon as we misuse that independence, immediately we are criminal, go to prison house. Daivī hy eṣa guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot cheat material nature. Immediately she captures. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare pasate māyā tare japati 'dhare. That beginning is possible at any moment. You haven't got to trace out the history. Even if you are very honest, you can become subjected to these criminal law at any moment. You are prone to that. So there is no use wasting time how it was begun. You are criminal. Now make your treatment that you may not become criminal again. If you go to a doctor, you have got some sickness, and if the doctor inquires, "How it began?" How it began? What business? Now I have got sickness, you treat me. That's all. What is the use of wasting time how it began? Some way or other, it has begun. Now I've come to you, make treatment. That's all. Why should we waste our time to find out the history how it began? That beginning can be possible at any moment. As soon as we misuse our little independence, immediately the beginning is there. A criminal means one who has violated the laws of the state. That is a fact. So when that violation began, so that is not very important thing. You have violated, you are in the prison house. That's all. That is important thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Religion is now misunderstood. Religion is described in the dictionary, "a faith." So faith..., your faith may be something, my faith may be something, that is not religion. Religion is described in the Vedic literature, "the law given by God." That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). So, just like law means the order given by the state, similarly, religion means the order given by God. So if you do not know what is God, what is His order, then what is your religion? Do you believe it or not? If you do not know what is God, if you do not know what is His word or what is His order, then where is your religion? If you do not know what is the government and if you do not know what is the government's order, then where is the question of law-abiding? Religion means, according to Vedic description.... Just like Kṛṣṇa said, mām ekām śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is religion. Sarva-dharmān parityajya: (BG 18.66) "Give up all this nonsense. Surrender unto Me." So what is the objection? Religion is one, surrender to God. So where is the objection? And God says that "You surrender to Me." So where is the objection? Religion cannot be two. Religion is one, surrender to God. If I say, "You are Muslim, you surrender to God, " do you have any objection? If I say to Christian, "You surrender to God," will he have any objection? Therefore religion is one; there cannot be two religions. Why you are bringing other religions? There is no question of other religions. Religion is one. You accept it?

Mrs. Sahani: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Eh? You cannot, if you have own design, don't touch Bhagavad-gītā. You make your own design and preach otherwise. Why you take advantage of the Bhagavad-gītā? This is criminal. If you have got a different philosophy, you preach. Everyone has got the right. But why you misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā? When you take advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gītā and you speak nonsense, that is not good. That has murdered the whole thing. And practically we see that. Bhagavad-gītā as it is, you try to understand, you get the benefit and you life is successful. Besides that, interpretation when it is required. When things are understood directly, there is no question of interpretation. The law of interpretation is like this: when the things are not distinct, then you can interpret in your own way, I can interpret in my own way, but when the things are distinct, there is no question of interpretation.

Mrs. Sahani: If that's so, then we don't understand because we don't want to understand.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the folly. You don't want to understand.

Mrs. Sahani: Because we have so many desire, we don't want to surrender.

Prabhupāda: We want to become bigger than Kṛṣṇa, than Arjuna. This is our folly. But the process is, as recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). You have to understand from the higher authorities.