Prabhupāda: Religious idea without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental speculation. They should be combined. Religious idea supported by philosophy. Then it is correct. And philosophy without religious idea is simply mental speculation. They should be combined. That combination of religious idea and philosophy, you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā, provided you accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. If you interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way, then you'll miss the point. Just like in our country, in India, Bhagavad-gītā has been interpreted in so different ways that people are now bewildered. They do not know what is actually Bhagavad-gītā. Take, for example... Just like in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). I think you know Sanskrit. Samavetā yuyutsavaḥ māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva kim akurvata sañjaya (BG 1.1). Even a great leader, political leader, he has interpreted kurukṣetra as this body. So where is the dictionary where kurukṣetra means this body? But because he's a big political leader that gītā is going on. Kurukṣetra means this body. Pāṇḍava means the five senses. In this way (break) ...they cannot (indistinct) I may tell you frankly. Just like Mahatma Gandhi, he wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and how he can prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā? Then he has to drag some interpretation out of his own way. But because he's a big leader the people are misled. Similarly, all... at present moment in India the Bhagavad-gītā has becoming a plaything that anyone can interpret in his own way and do all nonsense. But I'll request you, because you are so much interested, and you have already approved Bhagavad-gītā, you have translated. Amongst the leading personalities, you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is and spread it, it will have immediate effect. That is already experimented. Just like in western countries, before me, hundreds and thousands, swamis and yogis went there. But not a single person could understand what is Bhagavad-gītā, and what is Kṛṣṇa. Now hundreds and thousands of these boys in Europe, America, Canada, Africa, everywhere, Australia, everywhere, they are now become devotees... So they're intelligent persons, they're coming from rich family. Why they have taken seriously? Because they have understood Bhagavad-gītā nicely. So I request that God is neither Indonesian, neither Indian, neither African, God is God. And He claims that all living entities, in any form... The form is superficial. The form is taken as dress. Just like you are dressed in a different way, I am dressed in a different way. But we are not talking to the dress, we are talking to the man who is putting on the dress. Similarly, this bodily distinction is material. But spiritually we are all one. There is no question of becoming Indian or Indonesian or African or Asian or this or that.
There is no question (Conversations 1973)
Expressions researched:
"no question"
|"there can be no question"
|"there could be no question"
|"there is no question"
|"there was no question"
|"there will be no question"
|"without any question"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Scholar: I think it's also according to the society. First we have to learn and after we come to the stage of sannyāsī, only then we are...
Prabhupāda: It is no question of sannyāsa, sannyāsa you take or not take, you must be in knowledge what is your next life.
Scholar: But if the...?
Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say we shall keep ourself in darkness about our next life? Is that your philosophy?
Scholar: Well I think we have to start from... We give a child educations and then gṛhastha, and vānaprastha,...
Prabhupāda: That is all right, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, that is a, different stages. But the real education is that you have to die. You have to accept another body. What kind of body you are going to accept? If you do not know that what is this meaning of gṛhastha, and vānaprastha, and sannyāsa? It is all rascal. If you do not... You miss this real point, then what is the meaning of this? There's no meaning. Simply by dressing in white cloth one becomes gṛhastha? And simply by dressing one, in this saffron cloth, he becomes sannyāsī? By changing dress he becomes everything? He must know, that what is the aim of life. Everyone should know what is the ultimate of life.
Prabhupāda: Now if they do not offer, obey the orders of the sannyāsī, then naturally... But that thing should be brought to the notice of higher or some official, president. Then steps should be taken, that if you cannot follow the rules and regulations, then you must leave. It is plain thing. There is no question of fighting. First thing is that a sannyāsī, leader, they should behave themselves according to the rules and regulations. And then ask others to follow. The others who do not follow, once, twice excused, three times please... Like that.
Śyāmasundara: If, if he follows strictly the principles, then he'll be automatically respected.
Acyutānanda: Now I wanted to ask somebody to leave, but how does he leave? We have to buy him his ticket or something. There was a boy, one...
Prabhupāda: Leave means he can go to other center.
Acyutānanda: I wanted to ask him to leave but where would he go? Who will pay for his way out?
Prabhupāda: Then one thing is, that this ultimate, we are canvassing, we are preaching to bring men. To get them out is not our business. That is not our business that, but if he is incorrigible, he is not, then he must leave. That is... We are making so much preaching work to bring men, not to ask them to go. If for some paltry reason we ask, that is not...
Devotee: (softly) This was not a paltry reason.
Prabhupāda: Now, such camps, because you are not established, so, under the circumstances, what is to be done? To reduce our devotees?
Śyāmasundara: We have our base in Calcutta, we have our base in Bombay, those two places.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Śyāmasundara: Those are important cities in the world.
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we are minimized. So therefore automatically there is no question of negotiating (indistinct).
Devotees: No, no.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (2): Because not everyone is going to want to be, uh, you know, it's really, if the temple's not there where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2): Then they'll not want to maintain any standard themselves. They just fall back immediately into their old habits, naturally.
Śyāmasundara: Of course if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available.
Devotee (2): I don't think we need to worry about that.
Śyāmasundara: We have to be careful not to...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Śyāmasundara: ...not to offend these people the...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Spiritual leaders.
Prabhupāda: So, not offense (?). There is no question of making. We should behave ourself very nicely. Offending or pleasing that is (indistinct). You cannot offend everyone, neither you can please everyone. That is not possible. You keep to your standard. You keep to your standard. Then everything, everybody will see, "Oh, that is nice." Offending, you cannot please everybody. That is not possible. Even if you hear very nicely. Caitanya Mahāprabhu could not please everyone. He had to start civil disobedience. Even Gandhi was killed. That is not possible. You cannot please everybody. But you must stick to your own principle, and behave nicely. That's all. All right. (end)
Prabhupāda: There is such proposition that He should exist, He should not exist. Then there must be some authority to give such order. That is answered in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says: mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10), "Under My superintendence, nature is working." Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He also says that the species are not created independently. They say it is descended from, one after another.
Prabhupāda: So, if there is no question of independence, then how, abruptly, he can begin from a certain species? You must explain wherefrom this species came into existence. Harer nāma harer nāma...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are so many books on Darwin's theory. Goes... In the library, if one goes there are hundreds of volumes of books on Darwin's theory.
Prabhupāda: They have accepted or protested?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mostly they accept and there are some who are also very critical, what they're, what he's saying is really (indistinct) But those are very few. Mostly, most books are supporting.
Karandhara: Recently, there was an issue that some people wanted that the theory that God created the earth and the species to be taught in schools along with Darwin's theory.
Prabhupāda: No, because there is consciousness, therefore the living being can create. Because I am conscious, I am thinking of marrying, begetting children. Because I am conscious. And because there is no consciousness, therefore this wood cannot think that he'll beget. The original consciousness, in the Vedas, it is said: eko bahu syām. God says: "I'll become many," so because there is consciousness, therefore He's saying that: "I shall become many." Without consciousness, there is no question of by-products. (Pause) Now they are supplying water to these green trees. Why they do not supply to that wood, and get it green?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: 'Cause from experience they know that it is not going to grow.
Prabhupāda: That means nonsense, that there is something else. Because the same tree, now it is growing, watering, but when it will be dead, you pour water... The medicine is the same. Why it is not doing now, and why it was doing formerly? Then what is the thing that is lacking in it?
Brahmānanda: Similarly, if there's a dead body and they just add some chemicals, that doesn't necessarily mean it will come alive again.
Prabhupāda: No. No. Chemicals are already there. If you say that the chemical is the cause of life, that chemicals are there. Because other lifes are coming. How do you say the chemical is wanting.
Brahmānanda: Don't they say that when death means chemicals are gone...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.
Karandhara: They do not know how that life energy comes or goes.
Prabhupāda: No. Life energy comes or... There is no question of coming and going.
Karandhara: Well coming into a body and leaving a body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means that is individual. That individual person is missing. He has left it.
Karandhara: Generally they conclude that it's an electro-chemical energy in the heart and that...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. That individual person has left. Other things are intact. Otherwise, how the living entities are coming out?
Karandhara: They don't think that if it's simply a chemical, why cannot they just get a chemical that's a person.
Prabhupāda: No. We refute that. The chemicals are already there. Otherwise how living entities are coming out? We don't say that chemical is missing. Because the same theory: conservation of energy. The chemicals, the energy-producing, that is already there. It may be in different form, but the life-producing-energy is there. Otherwise how the other living entities are coming out?
Karandhara: In a living, in a living entity in the living body, there are so many things, personality...
Prabhupāda: They have got personality, all the living entities coming out, the microbes. They have got their personality. If they're moving in this way, you stop. They'll move in this way.
Prabhupāda: Ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh... That's all. They're thinking: "Oh, we're talking very nicely." The result is the snake, they find out here is a (unclear). Pop. Finish. So this ca ca canh, scientists, means when death comes, oh, everything's finished. That's all. All their ca ca canh, scientific investigation, finished. And he becomes a dog, cat and something like that. That's all. Therefore mūḍhāḥ. They do not know that "I have got this valuable life, human form of life, advanced intelligence. I'll have to take lesson from Kṛṣṇa, and make my life successful." They do not know that. Ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh. And then die, and become again. When he dies, there is no question of science and talking nonsense. That is under the grip of nature. "Yes, come on. Enter this body. Finished." Just like the rascal rogue. He's very much proud of his strength. And the police comes arrest: "Come on. Enter this custody. Finished." It is like that.
Devotee: We should go back, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Break) All these scientists, they discover so many things. Why they did not discover something that he would not die? He would not become old? Where is that discovery? They will say: "Yes, in future." One man is kicking on your face, and you are saying: "Yes, in future, when I shall become strong, I shall kick him." But you are, my dear sir, being kicked now. What you are doing now? "Yes, I'm getting strength by your kicking." So you all write very strongly, vehemently. Even it is little offensive, still these rascals should be taught good lesson. Yes. They're misleading. Godlessness. As soon as you say "God created", immediately they become arrogant. That is our protest. If they accept God, then we give them all credit. That's all right. Otherwise zero. We don't deprecate their intention of advancement in knowledge. But we simply protest against their defying the authority of God. That is our point.
Prabhupāda: Religion, religion is the source of moral and ethics. Because religion means to come to the perfectional point. So as soon as there is perfection, moral and ethics are already there. So called moral ethics, that is artificial. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. If one is not a devotee of the Lord, his morality has no value. That is artificial. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Mahad-guṇāḥ, high qualities, moral, ethics, they are high qualities. So Bhāgavata says that unless one is devotee of God, he cannot have high qualities. That is artificial.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So without God consciousness, there's no question of morality.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of morality. First of all, define what is morality? What is the definition of morality?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The value of life in its proper perspective.
Prabhupāda: Value of life, everyone has got his own value of life. a drunkard, he has got his value of life. That "When I drink, it is value." Is that morality?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the morality of the drunkard.
Prabhupāda: Therefore everyone has got his own morality. Then what is the standard morality?
Brahmānanda: Yeah. There must be a standard for everyone.
Prabhupāda: That is Ramakrishna mission's morality: yata mata tata patha. Whatever you think, that is your way. Yata mata tata patha.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot enjoy anything. You have to accept everything as prasādam. First of all you take sanction from the proprietor. Then you he will give... That is your business. Just like if I want to use this land, I have to take permission from the government, that "I want this land. Give me permission." So when government gives you permission you can use. Otherwise you will be criminal. You cannot say, "Oh, there are so much land, let me encircle it with my fence and I live there." No. Immediately criminal. You cannot do anything as you like with this ocean. Can you do? No you have to take permission from the government. Just like the fishing boats, they have got government permission. Otherwise they cannot. Therefore in the Īśopaniṣad it is said, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthāḥ (ISO 1). Tena tyaktena. "When it is sanctioned, when it is given to you, then you enjoy." Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam. "Do not touch anyone's property." This is Vedic injunction. So if everything belongs to God, how you can touch it without His permission? But they are rascals. They do not know who is God, where is God, how to take permission. They do not know. Therefore they become criminals. They are suffering. Encroaching upon God's property and therefore they are suffering. All these things are stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Everything belongs to God, and because we are sons of God, we can use the father's property. But not more than what I require. Just like in a family everything is father's property, and if you eat more, all the good things in the family, that is not allowed. You must take what the mother or the father gives you. That is your business. Similarly everything is God's property. Everyone, even the birds, beasts, everyone has right to use the father's property. Just like the birds. They will use. Just like they are picking up the small fishes. So as much they require, they are allowed, "Take it." But they are not making any stock for speculation. Man does that. As soon as there is some good harvest, ah, immediately they... (break)... problem. If everyone only takes as much he requires, there is no problem in the world. But he wants to take more. Just like you Americans, you have covered so many thousands of miles. And you don't allow anyone. "No, you cannot enter. Here is gun." What is this nonsense? It is God's property. Why do you disallow others. Let them come. So there is no question of over-population.
Prabhupāda: Suppose he knows the cause of cancer. What is the benefit? Neither he can stop cancer, neither a man suffering from cancer, if it is cured, he will live forever. That is not possible. Cancer or no cancer, a man has to die. He cannot check death. The death may be caused, if not cancer, simply by accident you can die. The real scientific research should be how to stop death. That is real scientific. That we are giving. To find out some medicine for some disease, that is not triumph. Real triumph is how to stop disease. That they cannot. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā puts before you the real trouble is this birth, death, old age and disease. That process we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). After giving up this body, no more acceptance of material body. This is real science. (break) ...suffer from cancer. (laughter) They don't suffer from cancer. So they are in better position than the so-called human society. They are creating causes of cancer disease and then making research and taking Nobel Prize. How foolish society it is, this. Why you create the cause of cancer disease? You accept these four principles of life—no meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex—there will be no cancer. There will be no cancer. You find out, those who are strictly on this line, they never suffer from cancer or any disease. Now take for example, me. I have come here in this country for the last seven years, 1965, and it is 1973, eight years. How many times I have gone to doctor? That once that heart attack. That is serious; that is another thing. Otherwise generally how many times I have gone to? I don't pay any bill of doctors. So if we live very hygienic life, regulated life, there is no question of cancer or any disease.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The disease is created...
Prabhupāda: No, there is no evolution because there is no birth.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, in the material world.
Prabhupāda: Material world, there is evolution because there is birth. But in the spiritual world there is no birth. Birth, death, old age, disease, these things are not there. There is no question of evolution. Evolution means to transmigrate from one body to another. But there is no such thing. Everyone is eternal. There is no death, there is no transmigration. This is botheration. Therefore spiritual world means all the varieties of the material world, less botheration, minus botheration.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in the Vaikuṇṭha planets...
Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa had so many girlfriends. There are so many nice descriptions of embracing, kissing, but there is no pregnancy or abortion. There is no description of such things. And that is spiritual world. The attraction for young boy, young girl is there also. They are also enjoying their company. Everything is there. But there is no such thing as pregnancy and abortion. Here people do not want that, pregnancy and abortion. But they are forced to do it because there are so many inebrieties here. That thing is minus in the spiritual world. They are also attracted by the bodily features of the women. There is attraction, but they are more attracted by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Therefore this bodily attraction of woman does not affect them. Just like if you have got better attraction, you don't care for the lower attraction. The attractions are there. The body of the woman is very beautiful. But men are not so much attracted with the body of the woman. They are more attracted to Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. These are described in the Bhāgavata. Here also, practically we see, those who are attracted by the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, they are not very much attracted with the bodily features of the women. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: They know. Because they have full knowledge, "He knows here is God. Although he is four-handed, I am four-handed, but here is God." Because there is full knowledge. That is the difference. Here we are selecting some rascal as God, because we have no full knowledge. There, in the Vaikuṇṭha planets, although the common citizens and God is of the same feature of the bodily, but they know, "Here is God, the Supreme." He has got special signs in the... Yes, that's all. Just like the king or the president, we may make mistake. We may accept somebody as "Here is president." No. But the associates of the president, he knows. They know that "Here is president." Similarly, there is no question of mistake there. Four kinds of defects of material life—to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat, and imperfection of the senses—these things are not there. Everyone's senses are perfect. When he sees God, he sees perfectly. He does not mistake. He is not illusioned. And there is no cheating and there is no imperfection of the senses. There is no mistake. These are spiritual life.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So all the living entities are completely satisfied.
Prabhupāda: Certainly. Because they are in the spiritual life. That is real life. Here it is covered. There is no such season as winter season, as summer season. Always spring. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12), simply ānanda, blissful life of knowledge. What do they know, the scientists, about the spiritual life?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is no...,
Prabhupāda: No information, no research. That kūpa-maṇḍūka, this frog in the well. That's all. They have no information of the Pacific Ocean. They are researching within the well. That's all. They have no information even of this material world. What do they know about the so many planets, so many, huge outer space? What do they know?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Almost nothing.
Prabhupāda: Already there. Therefore they are missing the clue. Coming, beginning from here. They are rascals. It is already there. God is eternal and everything is eternal. His energy is eternal. Matter and spirit, everything is there. I am born, I think that this is the beginning of the world. Nonsense, the world was there long ago. Everything was there existing. Just like you get heat from fire. So does it mean heat is beginning? Whenever there is fire, there is heat. But I think, "Now there is fire, heat will come." Heat will not come. It is already there. You will experience. Similarly, heat and light is... Everything is there in fire. If the fire is there, heat and light is there. There is no question of beginning. What do they say? The heat and light, there was beginning? About the...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a source for heat and light.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So source is already there. Therefore heat and light is already there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the varieties of living entities that we find in the material world, can we explain because of the desire of the living entities, to make..., to live in different houses?
Prabhupāda: They are advanced in consciousness. They are advanced in consciousness. Suppose you are advanced in consciousness. So you are not going to get the dog's body or cat's body. You get another human body. Yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate. Yoga-bhraṣṭaḥ is not ordinary man. He is practicing yoga, but somehow or another could not fulfill. Therefore he gets again human body. He does not get the cat's body, dog's body. So he directly comes to the human body. There is no question of evolution. Same example. The apartments are already there. If you can pay more, "Come on, this apartment is ready for you." Not that you have to come from the lower platform, lower animal apartments. Daiva-netreṇa. The judgement will be done by the higher authorities. They do not know that.
Karandhara: Prabhupāda, we should start going back.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Your work, and supervision-higher authorities.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is completely in contradiction with Darwin's theory.
Prabhupāda: Darwin is a rascal. What is his theory? We kick on your face. That's all. That is our philosophy. The more we kick on Darwin's face, the more advanced in spiritual consciousness. He has killed the whole civilization, rascal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even all the scientists now, the present scientists, their arguments are based on Darwin's early theories.
Prabhupāda: What they are...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their folly, foolishness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the scientific terminology the eternality of the soul can be compared with the conservation of energy?
Prabhupāda: There is no question of conservation. It is energy. It is always existing. If you say that is conservation of energy then...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. The definition of the conservation of energy is the energy cannot be created nor destroyed. That means that it is eternal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that we admit. Original energy of Kṛṣṇa, that is existing with Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is eternal. Therefore all His energies are eternal.
Karandhara: So the living entity is also eternal.
Prabhupāda: Just like the sun. Sun, the energy heat and light. If sun is eternal, heat and light (are) eternal. Hmm. What is that?
Karandhara: They say energy cannot be created or destroyed, then life cannot be created or destroyed.
Prabhupāda: We say that. Life is eternal. It is not created nor destroyed. It is covered only for the time. Just like, I'm eternal, but last night I was covered by dreaming, sleeping. So I say "yesterday" and "today." This is my position. I'm eternal, but because last night I was covered by dreaming, therefore I say "yesterday" and "today."
Umāpati: Father, how is it that we can enjoy this energy we are in, Kṛṣṇa's energy now, and we acknowledge it as Kṛṣṇa's in the neophyte stage. A pure devotee realizes it as Kṛṣṇa's energy, but as a neophyte, how do we enjoy material energy in this aspect, the fresh air and the morning walk.
Prabhupāda: A neophyte or anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. There is no question of enjoyment. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. But he takes the suffering as enjoyment. That is māyā. That is māyā. Just like in your country, they are working day and night. Just like from the morning, gugugugugugugugugu (makes noise of machine that is on nearby) They are suffering, but the people are coming, enjoying golf. That is suffering only. From the morning, going here, is it not suffering? (laughter) But he's thinking, "I am enjoying." This is māyā.
Umāpati: Just like the doctor's...
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is māyā. He is suffering, but he's thinking I am enjoying. So any conditioned soul, he doesn't enjoy anything. He simply suffers. But he thinks that he is enjoying. Therefore the camel, camel example is given. Camel example. Camel, he is eating his own blood, eating thorns, and the thorns cutting the tongue, and from the tongue, blood is oozing out. So when the blood is mixed up with the thorny twigs, it becomes little tasteful, and he is thinking "Oh, it is very nice." Similarly, all these gṛhasthas, enjoying sex life, he is discharging his own blood, he's becoming weaker and weaker, he is thinking, "I am enjoying." He is thinking, "I am enjoying." And if he uses more, then he becomes diseased, tuberculosis. He is dying by that process, but he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore it is example for the camel. He is enjoying his own blood by discharging. One drop of semen is made out of so many drops of blood. Do you know?
Prabhupāda: Yes. How a human being can kill another human being or another animal unnecessarily? And if you kill, there is law, life for life. But they have made laws for human beings. When an animal is killed, he's not criminal. But in the God laws you cannot avoid that. If you have killed an ant, you must be shot. That is God's law. You can avoid man-made law, but you cannot avoid God-made law. That you cannot do. You must be responsible. If you kill an ant even without knowledge, you are responsible. Such subtle laws are there. So we must know our responsibility. Without knowledge, if we kill, we are responsible. And with knowledge, there is no question. Where is that culture? They advertise, "Live and let live." What is that? Do they do that? Actually? They want to live at the expense of others. Why not let live others? Where is that culture?
Śyāmasundara: Now there is a famous cinema being shown called "Live and Let Die."
Prabhupāda: That is good culture. Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Favorite. Everyone likes it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let others die; you live.
David Wynne: And yet, Arjuna had to fight in the war, didn't he?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
David Wynne: In the Bhagavad-gītā, he still had to... But it didn't matter him killing if it was Kṛṣṇa's responsibility?
Prabhupāda: No. Fighting or killing, when it is done for, under the guidance of Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing.
David Wynne: Yeah, I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. What is the benefit? If I am blind and if there are hundreds of blind men, "All right, come on, I shall..."
Mr. Wadell: I think we are all partially blind.
Prabhupāda: No, then there is no question of knowledge. Somebody must be with eyes. He can give knowledge. That is our proposition. As soon as you say blind, there must be somebody with eyes. It is a relative term. It is a relative term. You cannot say, "all are blind." Then there is no question of blind and with men eyes. As soon as you accept blind man, you must accept the other side, man with eyes.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, I see. You mean just as you distinguish from white, black because it is different...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is relative world.
Mr. Wadell: I agree, but I am using this in, as an example, not as an absolute description. I think my view—may I explain this—of the whole of which I am, as I say, I think, an imperfect part, a part which is trying to learn something which I am not even quite sure what it is that I am trying to learn...
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is... You are perfect gentleman, means that you say that "I am imperfect." That is nice. But our point is that from imperfect man, imperfect knowledge is received. We cannot expect perfect knowledge from imperfect man.
Prabhupāda: That suspicion will continue unless you take the right process.
Mr. Wadell: But there are, I do not think that this God gave me my mind with my eyes and my sight, hearing, all these factors of the senses, and the intellect and the soul, if we are correctly speaking when we speak of it as something independently existing...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Mr. Wadell: He did not expect me, I'm sure, not... to reject questions. In my religion, my, must be just as much a part of me as all that my intellect tells me. There must be no question which my religion cannot stand up to.
Prabhupāda: First of all you say that God has given you the intellect. He can withdraw it also.
Mr. Wadell: Well, we say not, because...
Prabhupāda: Why not? If He has given, He can withdraw also.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, I don't... Well, we have a rather strange view of God...
Prabhupāda: No, you may have strange view. We are arguing. As soon as you say God has given you intellect, He can withdraw also your intellect.
Mr. Wadell: But you see, what we have also to explain—why all men are not good. Now, if God chose, He could force all men to be good, but that is not the way.
Prabhupāda: No, God has given you intellect to become good, but because you disobey God, you have become bad.
Mr. Wadell: But if God is all-powerful and He cared to use His power...
Prabhupāda: No, He does not interfere with your little independence.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle. I simply present that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing. Not seriously. Although in the śāstra it is said,
- harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam
- kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
- (CC Adi 17.21)
- kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann
- asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ
- kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya
- mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet
- (SB 12.3.51)
They'll not take to it. So they purposefully remain ignorant, or by their misfortune, they remain ignorant. But those who are innocent, they take it, and they get the result. That's all. Fire is fire. Either you take it by understanding or not understanding, it is fire. It will act. And that is their advantage, that these European and American boys and girls, they have taken, accepted what I have said, and they follow. They're making progress. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha... (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). These are the different stages. The śraddhā stage means faith. That faith is explained in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Faith, the Indian vernacular is viśvāsa. So Caitanya-caritāmṛta author says, "Faith means viśvāsa sudṛdha-niścaya." Faith, this is faith. When one believes firmly, sudṛdha-niś..., and with confidence. What is that? Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya: "If one becomes devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then all perfection comes." If one believes in this, that is the faith. Ādau śraddhā, with this faith one has to begin. Then the faith has to be increased by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with a devotee. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). Then actually executing the devotional service. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Then all misgivings will go away. Tato niṣṭhā. Then he becomes fixed-up. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ. Then attraction. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ athāsaktiḥ. Then he cannot leave. Āsaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ. Then ecstasy. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet... These are the different stages of sādhaka, of a devotee, how to make progress. So in the beginning they're faithless. Faith is that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva... Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). When he captures this slogan, that "Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, I shall be all-successful," this is the beginning of faith. Bhagavad-gītā creates this faith. But one who does not take even this faith, how he'll make progress. Progress means the progress of the same faith, up to the love of Godhead. That is perfection of faith. So these are the stages. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). These are the stages. So this institution is meant for training people from different stages, and beginning with this faith, that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta... "Simply by becoming devotee of Kṛṣṇa, my life will be perfect." This faith is the basic principle. So unless one comes to this basic principle of faith, there is no question of progress.
Prabhupāda: Then if there is question of "Why?" then you do not come to us. You can ask somebody else. Because Kṛṣṇa is accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all the yogis, all the saintly persons, therefore... There is no question of "Why?" Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That is the decision of the Vedic literature. All the ācāryas. We have to follow, mahājano yena gataḥ, big personalities. Now in India, the big personalities in the modern age, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya, all of them accept kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Formerly, five thousand years ago, Vyāsadeva, before that, Nārada—everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So there is no question about Kṛṣṇa's being the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why? Why? Because these people accept, the śāstra says, the Vedas says, therefore He is the Supreme Personality.
Student (1): I don't follow at all...
Prabhupāda: Then you'll never be able to follow.
Revatīnandana: Now, just see, the revealed scriptures...
Prabhupāda: No, no revealed scripture... Just like why do you accept the queen as the supreme? Why?
Students: We don't.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then, then you are not very sane.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of belief. Now let us quest... We believe that "If I see, that is all right," but what is the value of your seeing? You cannot see beyond this wall. Does it mean there is nothing? So what is the value of your seeing? First of all you consider. You are questioning that "I cannot see," but what is the value of your seeing?
Student (3): My seeing the electric lamp tells me that it is...
Prabhupāda: Now, now, now, but you are seeing the electric lamp, but why do you believe so much on your seeing power? You cannot see so many things, even though you have got the eyes.
Student (3): I have no reason not to believe.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not good. If you say, "I cannot see beyond this wall. There is nothing," nobody will take your words.
Student (3): Well, I don't know about that. I can see the wall.
Prabhupāda: You can say you don't know, but you cannot say that because you do not see, therefore it is nothing. You cannot say that.
Student (2): We don't deny that Kṛṣṇa exists, but, well, you know...
Paramahaṁsa: Well, for example, even in animal society, there is more animals, there's more insects, there's more birds than human society. But there's no question... They have no starvation. They have no nuclear warfare. Because they live as they're, as Kṛṣṇa has meant them to be, as their karma dictates. But in our situation we are meant to understand Kṛṣṇa. This, the goal of human life, is to use our developed consciousness to serve God. But unfortunately, since we misuse this for selfish motives, therefore we have descended lower than animals. Therefore we have not even the simple harmony that animal life has. Therefore we have mass warfare. Therefore we have greed, economic distress and pollution. All these things are caused simply because we have not used our human life for understanding Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: I think what you are saying, in a sense, is that generally the people are innocent. They grow up... And the goals of life are forced upon them, sort of, and actually that is not, the real goal is still missing.
Malcolm: They would say, yes, that there is... The number is too many.
Śyāmasundara: The number of goals?
Malcolm: No, the number of people to support a system of return.
Śyāmasundara: Return to the real goal.
Malcolm: To the real goal. They feel oppressed into supporting the number system because it's...
Śyāmasundara: Due to a larger number of people, is it possible to return all these people to the real goal?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As there is medicine for certain disease, if, in that particular disease, the prescribed medicine is given, then the disease will be cured. Is it not? Medical science, they have discovered medicine for a certain type of disease. So if the diseased man takes that medicine, particular, then he'll be cured. Similarly, if people take what is the actual goal of life by philosophy and logic, then their goal of life will be one. He must agree to take it just like the diseased man must agree to take the medicine. Then he's cured.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of rejecting or accepting to understand the goal of life. The goal of life is meant for everyone. Maybe a family man or without family. It doesn't matter. Just like eating. Eating is for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's a family man or not family man. It is his essential. Similarly, the goal of life is also essential to know for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's family man or not family man. It doesn't matter.
Malcolm: Is the medicine in the seeking?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Malcolm: Is the medicine in the seeking?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Some are seeking, but the medicine is there.
Śyāmasundara: Is looking for the medicine part of the medicine?
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no necessity of looking for it. The medicine's already there, goal of life. So we have to take information from authorities, what is the goal of life. Just like this child. The child, he knows that "My father is goal of life," or "My mother is goal of life." He may walk all over the room, but he knows that "Ultimately, my father is goal." Similarly our goal of life is the Supreme Father. Now, if this child is taken away from this room, he'll cry. He'll not be able to express that he wants the goal of his life, his father and mother. He'll simply cry, missing. Similarly, our goal of life is the Supreme Father. But because we are missing, we are crying here, throughout the universe, throughout the creation. We are simply crying. This is called struggle for existence. But the real goal of life is...(Aside) There is fire. Don't allow him to go there. There is fire. (Noise of child in background) Now, he doesn't remain there; he comes to the mother, the goal of life. Similarly, we have got our goal of life, a supreme father. We are missing that. Simply one has to know that "This is our goal of life. We were searching in vain for so many other goals of life." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31).
Śyāmasundara: What do we mean by renunciation?
Prabhupāda: Renunciation, practically, there is no question of renunciation. According to our philosophy... Just like father and the son. So son cannot renounce father's protection or the property. Some way or other, he has to take advantage of it. But... Therefore renunciation means that as every son has got a right on the property of the father, similarly, every living entity has got right to live at the cost of God. But they should not encroach upon others' right. That is renunciation.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But at the present moment, they are encroaching upon others' right. And that is sinful, and he's punishable. Just like every living entity has got the right to live at the cost of God. But the human being is interfering with the rights of living of the animals. They have got the right. As human being has got the right to live...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. I agree.
Prabhupāda: ...why not they? National. National means a living entity born in particular country. So at the present moment, the national means only human being. The animals are not nationals. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. So this kind of sinful activities are going on. Therefore renunciation means to give up these sinful activities. That is real renunciation. Otherwise, you cannot renounce anything. You have to live. And that is allowed at the cost of God. Everything belongs to God. You are son of God. So you live. But don't encroach... Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam. That is the instruction of Īśopaniṣad. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. So you have got the right to enjoy what is allotted for you. Don't encroach upon others' right. This is renunciation. But they are encroaching upon others' right. Especially the human society. And that is the cause of all troubles. Because they have no God consciousness, they have no sense about God, and there is no sense about next life... What is your opinion about life after death?
Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Candragupta. So he was honorary Prime Minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction, who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that: mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat. "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street, you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. So mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualifications, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestations: treating all women as mother; treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society. So how we can expect purification unless we accept these principles? You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is already there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, described.
David Lawrence: Yes. If you like, the later manifestation isn't it. Of the avatāra.
Prabhupāda: We are simply trying to present them, that's all. It is not we have manufactured something, no. There is no question of concoction, manufacturing.
David Lawrence: No. Just passing on what has already been there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is already there. When we speak of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is already there. When we speak of Vṛndāvana, Vṛndāvana is already there. It is not that we have manufactured some picture, imagination, no. They take it like that. The rascals take it like that, that it is a kind of imagination of the poet. The Māyāvādī philosophers also take like that. But that's not the fact. It is actually presentation of the spiritual facts and as the spiritual activities are quite different from material activities, they misunderstand. They misunderstand.
David Lawrence: Yes. It's one of the interesting features was, of this little bit about Lord Caitanya was in fact that he claimed Him to be pathological.
Prabhupāda: Just like...
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there is no use of writing. You can do it. We can immediately submit some of the names. And you can give us.
Ambassador: Of course, from Sweden, I mean, it depends upon the nationality. People can go for three months without any visa.
Prabhupāda: No, that is different thing. But missionary visa. From missionary... When there's missionary, there is no question of any particular country, because we have got men from different countries. Our men, ISKCON representatives, they should be given missionary visa when they want to go. That is my... That much help I want.
Ambassador: Who is the representative in India? Of this...? In Delhi, of your organization? In Delhi?
Prabhupāda: In Delhi?
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, there is. Tejas.
Paramahaṁsa: Tejas dāsa.
Ambassador: He should meet someone fairly senior in the home ministry.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Ambassador: I can write to him, and he can also meet. I think...
Prabhupāda: So you can, you can give some introductory...
Prabhupāda: No. Believe... There is no question of believe. Suppose you are hungry. I give you some food. I say: "You are hungry. Take this food." So when you take this food, you'll believe that: "Yes, my hunger is now satisfied. I'm getting strength." That is belief. So you are hungry, and if I give you some food, if you don't eat, then how you can believe that your hunger is now satisfied? You must eat. So we say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." So why not chant? Where is the loss? If there is any gain, let me take it. That is belief. If I say: "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." so you have got tongue, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you chant, you'll believe me, because the result will be there. There is no difficulty. But if you say: "No, I shall not chant," then, then you suffer. What can be done? Anyone can chant. The child chants. If you say: "I don't believe in it. I cannot chant it." So many words. And Hare Kṛṣṇa, two words. You take so much trouble. "I cannot chant. I don't believe in it." And Hare Kṛṣṇa, two words. So it is whose fault? I say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." If you say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," immediately, the belief begins. And if you say: "No, no, I cannot chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. I don't believe in it." What can be done? That, that will be taken as misfortune. He's being requested to chant two words. Instead of two words, he'll repeat twenty words. But due to his misfortune, he'll not chant these two words. That is a misfortune.
Prabhupāda: These are the processes to become perfect. Tapasā. First thing is tapasya. And nobody's prepared to undergo tapasya. And human life is made for tapasya. Therefore in Vedic civilization, you'll find tapasya. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they were all engaged in tapasya. Rājarṣi, devarṣi. Bharata Mahārāja, under whose name this planet is called Bhāratavarṣa, at the age of twenty-four years, he gave up his young wife, children, and went for tapasya. Tapasya is the life of the human being. Not to live like cats and dogs. That is not human life. Restrained. Tapasya. But here there is no, at the present moment, there is no question of tapasya. Even one is ninety years old, he's still engaged in these material activities. Even a person like Gandhi, unless he was killed, he would not give up politics. The material activities are so palatable for the materialists, that even up to the point of death... In Bengal, there was a big zamindar. So his father, er, his sons asked him at the time of death, "Father, what we can do for you, last desires?" So he expressed that "That man is my enemy. If you can bring him here and beat him with shoes, I'll be very much satisfied." This is material world. Even at the time of death, he's thinking enmity with others. And he will, he wanted to be happy that "If you bring that man and beat him with shoes, I'll be very happy." The other day somebody said that one man was cut into two, and he was asked, "What do you want?" He said, "Give me a cigarette." (laughter) This is the position.
Guest (2): And he was cut into two.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was going to die, still he was asking, "Give me a cigarette." He does not know anything else. Therefore one has to practice. Ante nārāyaṇa-smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). At the time of death, if you can remember Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful.
Guest (3): Can a person become Kṛṣṇa conscious only by renouncing, or can he do both, continue his life and also become Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Prabhupāda: What we have renounced?
Guest (3): Well, you are not conducting any business. You are conducting the business of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So in Kṛṣṇa's business, there is no question of renouncement.
Guest (3): No, but that is not a specific thing. But if somebody's carrying out a particular duty, does he have to renounce that...
Prabhupāda: That particular duty, you cannot manufacture. That particular duty is, as Kṛṣṇa says, if you cannot... Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ... (BG 4.13). (end)
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Every sane man should appreciate. When European and American young men, who are after material sense gratification, they're taking sannyāsa, it is not joke. They should appreciate it. In an age where material sense enjoyment is very prominent, and they give up everything for Kṛṣṇa, and they're going far away from their comfortable position... Just like Brahmānanda has gone to Africa. So what for? Unless they appreciate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how they take up this job? This is practical. There is no question of theoretical.
Brahmānanda: You said that last night when you spoke that about we are actually siddhas.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: We are not...
Prabhupāda: That I wanted to prove... (laughs)
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...that these boys are siddhas. Others, they do not know what is siddhi.
Brahmānanda: They have not even left family connection, you said.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That I... That Mr. Kokoor...
Brahmānanda: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: ...talking high talks. Simply high words will not do.
Prabhupāda: No, no, laws of nature if you want. If you want to be condemned, then laws of nature is there. Otherwise laws of nature is teaching you how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Just like police. Police business is to make you lawful. If you become lawful, there is no question of police. There is no question of police law. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Māyā is kicking you one after another so that you may come to sense that "This life is not good." But we are so foolish that we say, "No, it is good." Yan maithunādi. "There is sex life. Oh, it is very good." This is the position.
Devotee: You give the analogy in the Bhagavad-gītā that it's like pouring gas onto a fire you're trying to put out.
Hṛdayānanda: He said like putting gas on the fire.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So increase the fire. Yes. But because we have got this body, we have to utilize it to make the best use of a bad bargain. Therefore marriage is allowed, gṛhastha life is allowed, not for increasing sex life, but to finish it as soon as possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even in the very lower forms of life, there are some species, they reproduce without any sex? It's called asexual reproduction.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Oh yes. These bugs, bedbugs, they produce by this blood. You kill...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We cannot check reproduction.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Yaśomatīnandana: Even if they go to heavenly planets by following Vedas, still they will be able to live longer, but by their mundane efforts they will not be able to increase...
Prabhupāda: No, nobody... In the material world there is no question of living forever. That is not possible. That is in the spiritual world.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the scientists explain why there are so many varieties of living entities, they have an explanation.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say, "At the time of evolution, the cells, the genes, sometimes..." Normally the gene is perfectly copied for the next generation, but sometimes there is a mistake in copying. Just like in the printing press sometimes we do some mistakes. Just like that, there are some mistakes along the path of evolution. So those mistakes, sometimes they just, according to the circumstances, they can stand, and they form a different living entity because of the difference of the genes.
Prabhupāda: But the mistake is continuing forever, because you'll find the varieties of living entities ever-existing. Therefore the mistake is permanent. So when it is permanent, it is not mistake. It is intelligence.
Prabhupāda: For some time he'll get away. You can get away from the police custody, but you cannot get away from māyā's custody. That is not possible.
Karandhara: But because in all material examples there are exceptions, they say. In all material examples there are exceptions, so they try to find that exception.
Prabhupāda: Many exceptions are there, mām eva ye prapadyante. Those who are devotee, they are not under māyā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you do not violate the laws of God... (break) ...there is no question of being... (break)...by māyā. If you surrender... (break) ...ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). (break) ...if the government protects everyone who is surrendered to the laws of the God, government. The government will give all protection. If he is a law-abiding citizen, he must be given protection, all protection.
Hṛdayānanda: You're too intelligent for the atheists, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: You're too intelligent for the atheists.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Atheist means criminal, they're punishable, that's all. And the more people becoming godless, they're being punished by nature.
Devotee (2): Actually by the law of conservation of energy reincarnation can be explained.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2): By their own law.
Prabhupāda: They cannot show you, that is another stupidity. (indistinct) anything. Who can deny that Kṛṣṇa says that avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sar..., there is a thing within the body which is eternal? And what is that thing which is spreading consciousness? And you show what is that thing which is spreading consciousness. Then I shall accept you as scientist.
Karandhara: They would say, "How can we believe Kṛṣṇa?"
Prabhupāda: No, you don't believe, that here is a fact! That there is something within the body which is spreading consciousness. That is eternal. There's no question of believing. It is a fact. Now you show, what is that fact? Where is that fact?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say it's just biochemical reactions.
Prabhupāda: Biochemical... You simply do it, rascal. You cannot do it. (Hṛdayānanda laughs) You rascal, simply speak, but you cannot do it. That is our contention.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are rascal. You speak something which is beyond your power.
Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda solves...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore it is simply cheating people. And we, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we want to stop these cheating, any way...
Karandhara: They'd say we also cannot prove the soul is eternal.
Prabhupāda: No.
Umāpati: So no one will accept any kind of superior philosophy. It's very difficult to discuss these things among them.
Prabhupāda: No, then everyone, if becomes superior, then where is the question of philosophy? If everyone is superior himself, then there is no question of philosophy. Is there any necessity? You are superior, I am superior; then where is the question of discussing philosophy?
Umāpati: That is trying to be God. He's trying... Then we are always God.
Prabhupāda: Then philosophy becomes null and void. As soon as everyone becomes his own authority, then philosophy becomes null and void. There is no necessity of philosophy.
Umāpati: That is the difficulty of our age.
Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals. Mūḍhāḥ. If you do not accept philosophy, you do not accept authority, that means all rascals.
Hṛdayānanda: You said, "alpa-medhasaḥ..."
Prabhupāda: Outlaws, they are called outlaws. Just the outlaws, they do not accept any authority, government authority, or authority of the law, they're called outlaws. Rejected.
Umāpati: Yeah, well, this is a nation of outlaws.
Prabhupāda: Eh. You are inferior. You are being kicked every moment by the laws of nature. How do you claim that you are superior? Why you are covering? Because you are kicked by the laws of material nature.
Umāpati: There's no complex.
Prabhupāda: There is no question... You have to cover yourself.
Bali Mardana: They say that...
Prabhupāda: How do you say you are superior? You are inferior. As soon as you cover your body, you are inferior.
Karandhara: They say, "Well, we, I made this hat. So whatever inferiorities I have, I can conquer them by my intelligence."
Prabhupāda: But that intelligence, superior intelligence will never come to you. You'll always remain inferior.
Hṛdayānanda: What about death?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are always inferior.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will prolong death.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will prolong death. They're trying to prolong.
Prabhupāda: "They're trying."
Hṛdayānanda: Because you're right, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. We must have some relationship with God.
Karandhara: Their point is that they can only have faith in God. Their reason tells them there is no God.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of faith, it must be. Faith may be false. There must be. Because we have got relationship with everything, therefore ultimately everything is created by God.
Satsvarūpa: That requires faith.
Prabhupāda: It is not faith; it is fact. Faith may be wrong. Faith may be right or wrong, but fact is fact.
Karandhara: Well, when they say fact, they mean what they can perceive through their senses grossly.
Prabhupāda: Yes, with senses, senses. That is... Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that we have got relationship with God and senses, our senses. That is hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). When the senses are engaged with the Supreme, in relationship, that is called bhakti. It is a question of senses. It is not vague. We apply everything, we go with our senses. Just like the leg, we go, take our legs to the temple. We use our tongue for glorifying, for eating the prasādam. Every senses. That is bhakti. It is not sensuous, but engaging the senses in the service of the proprietor of the senses.
Karandhara: But they say that's a faith.
Prabhupāda: That's not faith, that's fact.
Prabhupāda: No, atheists, kick them on their face. Atheists, they are... Those who are reasonable, that everything see, that somebody has made. So this sand is also made by somebody, the water is also made by somebody, the sky is also made by somebody. Now you find out who is that somebody. That is knowledge.
Dr. Wolfe: They do not want to transcend the limits. They do not want to transcend the limits.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of transcending, practical. Everything you see, it is made by somebody. The stick is made by somebody. The cloth is made by somebody. So this must be made by somebody.
Dr. Wolfe: But they would say, "Present me the somebody so that I..." They would say, "Present to me the somebody so that I can see him."
Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll present you. So you have to take training from me. You have to make your eyes to see Him.
Dr. Wolfe: We want to.
Prabhupāda: That is the... Yes. But if you refuse to be treated, if you don't go to the physician, then how you'll be? You are blind now. There is cataract. Now you have to treat in a surgical operation. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This is the injunction.
Karandhara: You see, that step requires faith.
Prabhupāda: Not faith, practical.
Karandhara: Initially it must be, there must be faith in the guru.
Prabhupāda: This is the proof. This is the proof. You see. But if you close your eyes... Just like if somebody says, "Now there is sunrise, light." And if he is in darkness, he says, "Where is the proof there is light?" So, "You please come out and see." So you read it and there will be proof.
Karandhara: Even if you don't accept it's five thousand years old, that doesn't diminish the value of the books.
Prabhupāda: Simply read it. There is no question of five thousand, ten thousand, old or new. Just see what is the knowledge there. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām (SB 1.7.6). Because they are fools, for them this literature is made. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. (break) ...accept Bhāgavata, then their Darwin's theory is finished. Darwin's theory is finished.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, if they accept that there is a spirit soul, then Darwin's theory is also finished.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Spirit soul, they don't like to accept it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Prajāpati: The theologians are saying that if we say man is simply soul, he is not his body, we are not accepting the whole man. The whole man means soul and body together.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we say, body, same...
Karandhara: Body, mind and soul.
Prabhupāda: It is not that God consciousness, just like our Gaurasundara, to go to a solitary place, and do all rascals and rascaldom. Sell the temple and go to the solitary place. This kind of God-trust, rascaldom, hooliganism, is no trust. You see? This is all hooliganism, nonsense.
Prajāpati: There is no trust without obedience.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. There is no... There is no question of trust. Yes. That is, that is the first requirement in the Bhagavad-gītā. "You surrender unto Me." That means: "You trust." I cannot surrender unto you if I do not trust you. That is trust. I don't believe you; how can I trust you? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is full trust. "Yes, I must surrender to Kṛṣṇa. He, He..." Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings,
- mānasa deha geha jo kichu mora
- arpilūṅ tuwā pade nanda-kiśora
Nanda-kiśora, Kṛṣṇa, now I fully surrender unto You. And what I have got? I have got my mind, I have got my body, and I have got my family. So everything I surrender unto You. Deha, geha everything." This is our possession. Otherwise... I cannot say, "I possess this universe." But I can say, "I possess this body. I have got some mind. And I have got some little family. So everything I surrender unto You." Mānasa deha geha jo kichu..., arpilūṅ tuwā pade nanda-kiśora. Now what kind of surrender? Mārobi rākhobi, jo icchā tohārā. "Now I have surrendered. If you want, you can kill me. And if You want, You can keep me." This is surrender. This is trust. "If You like, you can kill me. And if You like, you can save me." Jo icchā tohārā. "That depends on Your free will because You are completely independent." This is surrender. This is trust. Then activities begins. Then he will act according to the order of Kṛṣṇa. When he has surrendered, he'll do as Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Just like our students are doing. They have surrendered unto me. I am dictating, "You do this. You worship like this." They are doing. This is surrender. They are doing. "You chant like this You live like this. You worship like this." This is surrender. So, without any consideration, whether this chanting... Of course, there must be consideration. Otherwise, how they are doing? But this obedience is there. That is called surrender. Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. Where to go?
Prabhupāda: Oh, oil drilling. So you are theologician. You start this movement, plus our Hare Kṛṣṇa party. And leaders, the propaganda should be that the, at least the priests, who are conducting religious activities, they, the priests and the leaders and the administrators, they must be sinless. Or... Sinless means they should not indulge in these four prohibited principles. Others may do. But the leaders, the political executive, administrators, and the priests who are conducting the church, they must be free from sinful life. Otherwise, there is no question of peace in the society.
Prajāpati: These leaders, they must be above suspicion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." If the leaders, the priests and the executive heads are all rascal rogues, thieves, and within suspicion, then how there can be, I mean to say, peace in the world? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement,... War was declared against Arjuna because he's, he was sinful. Therefore Kṛṣṇa declared war, "You must kill them. You must kill them, Arjuna." Arjuna was declined, "Oh, let them go. They are my brothers." "No, you must kill them. Don't talk nonsense." That is Kṛṣṇa's idea. That is Bhagavad-gītā. The whole Bhagavad-gītā was spoken just to induce Arjuna to kill the godless, the sinful. That is Bhagavad-gītā.
Prajāpati: Actually, it's very good for them to be killed by a devotee.
Prabhupāda: No, that free will is not to be given. It is already there. Rather, Kṛṣṇa says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words." Sarva-guhyatamam. "You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." There is also free will. When you come to the Kṛṣṇa platform you serve Kṛṣṇa with free will, not that you become a stone. There is free will. Just like our devotees they are dressing Kṛṣṇa nicely, is there no free will? They are cooking for Kṛṣṇa. Is there no free will? The free will is there. The Māyāvādī philosopher says, the Buddha philosopher says, that "Stop this free will, and then you become happy." But our proposition is not to stop free will but purify free will. Purify. Not stop these eyes. Just if it is suffering from cataract, cure that cataract. Keep the eyes. And their proposition, "Get out these eyes and throw it. Then there will be no more seeing what is right and wrong." That is their proposition. Nirviśeṣa-vādī. Nirviśeṣa means no speciality, no varieties. That is nirviśeṣa. And śūnya, zero. When it is zero, then there is no question of right and wrong. So our philosophy is not that. There is no zero, and there is no varieties. We don't say. There is, but it's purified varieties. Tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Nirmalam means purified. So our process is to purify everything. We don't want to stop. That is not our proposition. They cannot find out any solution. Therefore they want to make stop: "Stop this business." Suppose a business is not going very nicely. It is going at loss. Somebody says, "Close it." But one experienced man comes: "Why should you close? All right, I shall do it properly.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Māyāvādī means those who are in māyā, those who are thinking Kṛṣṇa as one of the human beings, for them, to delude them, He left the body. But actually He departed in His own body. There is no question of... Here is another... But just like this is also, this material world... This is also Kṛṣṇa's body. But this is interesting to the Māyāvādīs, the so-called scientists, so-called philosophers. But it is not interesting to the devotees. They are thinking, "This is all." Is not that? The scientists, the philosophers, they are thinking, "This is all. There is nothing beyond this." This is illusion. This is only reflection of the reality.
Viśvareta: Scientists, they have their mental process, but what is our process to understand this knowledge?
Prabhupāda: Ascending. Ah, descending, not ascending. We have to take knowledge from superior. We should not try ourself to know. That will be imperfect. Avaroha-patha. Just like we're receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. We are not researching. Those who are researching, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They understand Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being, maybe little learned. That's all. The Dr. Frog's calculation of Atlantic Ocean. That's all. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). (break) ...automatically. You see? But he does not know that behind this automation there is brain. He'll see, "Oh, how nice." That's all. Similarly, child-like scientist, they will say, "Everything is going on automatically." (break) ...but there is brain behind that.
Prabhupāda: So because you are not God conscious you are doing all this nonsense. You do not know who is father. Therefore you cut throat, your brother. (break) ...that those who are eating vegetables, they are also killing. That's a fact. But God says that "You can eat this." God says... By nature... Just like the animal. They will eat these leaves, the grass. Nature. But they will not eat meat. Tena tyaktena. Whatever God dictates, "Now you eat this," He is eating. But you give him meat. No, he will not take it. So whatever you are allotted, you should eat. That is God's law, that after all, one has to eat. So what you will eat? Everything is living. Therefore allotted. You are allotted, "These things is allotted for you. You eat." We God conscious people therefore eat... Without going into the details, we eat anything what God eats. That's all. There is no question of discriminating what we shall eat. We eat prasādam. That's all. So we are safe.
Devotee: They will say that Jesus Christ ate meat.
Prabhupāda: All right, Jesus Christ took meat, but Jesus Christ never said that you maintain slaughterhouse. Is there any Bible, anything?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupāda: Then you eat meat. All right. You kill and meat. Why you are maintaining slaughterhouse? Is that Jesus Christ's instruction, rascal? Thousands of slaughterhouse you are maintaining under the order of Jesus Christ? So they are rascals. You eat meat, all right. Jesus Christ, meat... Of course, once, twice he might have because he was a... (end)
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then there is no question of philosophy. Finish. Everything one. That... This philosophy was discussed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His mother. He was eating dirt, and mother gave Him sandeśa. So He did not care to take sandeśa. He was eating dirt. Then mother came, "My dear boy, why you are eating dirt? Here is sandeśa. I have given you." "Mother, what is the difference between sandeśa and dirt? They are all the same. (laughing) They are all the same." "Yes, my dear boy, You are impersonalist philosopher. But it is required. Just like the water jug is also earth, made of earth. It is earth. And this ground is also earth. But when you have to keep water you require this water jug, not this earth." That is relativity. If you have to take work, then you cannot say, "Well, this is also earth, this is also... Why...? The pot is not required. Put water here." Then you will suffer, no water. So this kind of philosophy was discussed when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a child. (break) ...and the tree is the same thing. But when I walk, I require the stick, not this tree. (break) ...The dogs must be on lash (leash). If somebody does not do that, he is criminal. So if he pleads in the court, "There is no difference, dogs on the lash or without lash. Why you are punishing me?" But will that be accepted?
Karandhara: Well, the judge says, "There is no difference whether I put you in jail or not."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it. Then he has to accept jail. He should not defend himself. "Never mind. I go to jail." Why he appoints a lawyer to defend himself?
Prabhupāda: This Subhash Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers... They were great politicians. They saw, "Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be." Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see? They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia, and the Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that "For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army." Actually, they were expanding their empire. Africa, Burma. And when they saw that "India is lost," voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back... Back to home, back to Godhead. (devotees laugh) So in politics this is nonsense, non-violence. It is nonsense, cowardism. In politics in sweet words you cannot get. There must be fight, arms. That is army. "If you don't agree, then fist." That is politics. There must be violence. Otherwise you cannot control. When there is educated good men, then you can argue. But when people are ruffians, there is no question of good... Argumentum vaculum, I told you the other day... (break) ...in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devāsura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there. French revolution was there. In England, Cromwell? Cromwell? Cromwell Revolution?
Prabhupāda: No. I am not talking of any government. We are not in politics. We are talking of preaching. Why? Why this government should you try to change. Where is the better replacement? First of all find out the better replacement. Then you talk of changing. Where is the better replacement? To replace one rascal with another, that is not... Now democratic government, if the people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then naturally their leader will be Kṛṣṇa conscious. So automatically it will change. There is no question of violence. What is the use? Now, suppose by violence you become the president of the United States. Will you be able to do something?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: No.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use? Because under democratic government, your order is not final. So if the people are demons, then what you will do? You cannot do anything. Therefore the people's mentality, consciousness, should be changed by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. When they become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will select Kṛṣṇa conscious president. Then everything finished. Formerly people used to accept the king as the final authority, but at this present moment, that is not accepted. People must accept. Now it is people's government. So unless people are God conscious, you cannot find good government. In comparison to other governments, your government is far better. People here (are) not starving.
| Page Title: | There is no question (Conversations 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 17 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=53, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 53 |