Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that "We have no independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto..." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independent, so-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' "
That is not possible (Conversations 1976)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That will never come. Therefore it is bogus. You cannot...
Indian man (2): In the beginning it is bogus, but the result is...
Prabhupāda: No, no. In the beginning bogus and it is always bogus, because mind cannot be without thought. So why do you propose "without thought"? That is not possible. Therefore it is bogus.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the beauty of having emptiness?
Prabhupāda: That is another.... Emptiness mean he is troubled by so many anxieties; therefore he wants to make it empty.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's simply negative.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍha. Therefore they are all mūḍhas. So we are not going to be misled by the mūḍhas. That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Kṛṣṇa. I think our Svarūpa Dāmodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Kṛṣṇa, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa." He has given this article.
Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not defective like other living beings?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Prabhupāda: Yes, "Govindāya namaḥ." Purify, govindāya namaḥ. Don't take it. Simply immediately throw it in the street. It is obnoxious. Immediately break the whole thing, and, part by part, sell it. But that is not possible. Ask him to first of all get it outside and then leave here. Don't allow this nonsense. (break) ...stand this space. Why? Why should we allow it? Useless.
Jayapatāka: We were thinking about whether we should repair it or not.
Prabhupāda: No. You should not take anything which requires repairing. Don't accept. (break) ...in the meantime. (break) (Bengali) It has not worked for three hundred years. (Bengali) You do not engage them for cleansing?
Bhavānanda: These boys are in charge.
Prabhupāda: That is.... A child can also do that. That is not expert. A child can advance in foolishness without any guidance. If the child touches fire and if somebody says, "This is advancement of knowledge," then imagine what is the position. Similarly, all these rascals, they are endeavoring. Just like Hiranyakasipu. He endeavored all through how to become immortal, which is impossible. But he advanced in that foolishness. Hiranyakasipu was such a big demon, his only idea was that "The devatās, they attack us sometimes. But now I shall attack them and plunder them. But because I am now practically immortal, what they will do? They cannot kill me. So I will go on with my demonic activities, and then they cannot do anything." This is his foolishness. He did not know that he's the greatest foolishness that he was trying to become immortal. When it was said by Brahmā that "No, no, it is not possible," still, he expected that "I shall become immortal." Brahmā flatly said, "No, no, this is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Whatever you wanted, I have given you. You have cheated yourself. You do not know that your knowledge is imperfect. You cannot make it perfect. So that is your folly. But so far I am concerned, whatever you wanted, I said, 'Yes. Yes. Yes.' But I said also that 'In spite of all this, you'll never live.' That is not possible. But, you fool, you did not take care of it. So in spite of cunningness, you remained a fool. You thought that you are very intelligent, cunning. 'I am now fully equipped; nobody can kill me.' But I said that it is not possible. I never cheated you. You cannot say that I have cheated you."
Prabhupāda: Ah. Moghāśā mogha-karmaṇo mogha-jñāna-vicetasaḥ (BG 9.12). (break) .... Kṛṣṇa says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your..." This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is giving good advice. He'll not accept it. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going.... That facility is māyā, his mind and māyā. He is desiring. That mind is also given by māyā, so that he can punish him very severely. So māyā has given us mind: "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility."
Prabhupāda: He is thinking he has become very intelligent that he can deceive God, deceive spiritual master and be happy. He does not know that he can neither deceive God or His representative, guru. That is not possible. But he is thinking like that. And he is being put into suffering condition. Just like ordinary thieves and rogues. They think, "I am deceiving government." But government has got so many agents that he will be arrested. But this sinful government may not be so expert, but how he can deceive the government of Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible.
Harikeśa: There's undercover agents in everybody.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, every direction.
Hariśauri: The land, the sky, the...
Prabhupāda: (break) So then the chance is lost. Repeatedly Kṛṣṇa is saying, "You give up all this habit. Just become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sarva-dharmān..." Nobody will hear. "Why shall I not?" There is a Bengali song, cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo keno dekhbo nā: "If it is gratifying to my eyes, why shall I not see a beautiful woman? Why you are forbidding me?" Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo: "It is pleasing to my eyes. Why you are forbidding me? This is going on. Cakṣe yadi lāge bhālo. If there is little happiness, don't mind it is flickering. It will go on. The Carvaka Muni: ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet: "Some way or other prepare foodstuff with ghee." "I have no money." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā: "Just take. Beg, borrow, steal, bring ghee and prepare nice foodstuff and eat and enjoy life." This is the material world. But śāstra says, "No, no, no. Don't do this. This is the hog's business. Tapo. Just try to go, follow austerity." Even those who are so-called advanced in knowledge, karmī, jñānī, yogī, they are also after sense gratification. Karmī is openly after sense gratification and jñānī is subtly. "No, no. This kind of..." Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. "Now I shall enjoy Brahman. I shall become God." This is another side, the same sense enjoyment. Because I have failed becoming a minister or becoming a king, becoming a leader, becoming—I have failed, now I shall become God. Same sense grati.... They cannot understand that this is also sense gratification. "I am not no more satisfied by becoming a little minister and king and.... No. I shall become God. Why shall I.... By becoming king or minister I beg to the goddess of fortune, 'Mother, give me a little money.' Why shall I beg? I shall enjoy her. I become Nārāyaṇa." Same disease. A yogi also, after mystic power they want to show magic: "I shall make like this and gold will be there. People will worship me as I am God." Do that. People do that. If you play something wonderful they will accept you: "Oh, you are God." But he does not know that he cannot become God. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He had very good wife, young wife, and he became a victim to a prostitute and lost all brahminical culture. So if you create prostitute in the society, where is the hope of brahminical culture? There is a story that a gentleman... Not gentleman, a rascal. He was rich, and he was going to the prostitute. So the wife inquired that "What is wanting in me that you are going to the prostitute?" You know that story? "No, I go there because she dances, sings." So she learned dancing. So in this way, one after another, drinking, dancing, this, that. Still, he was going. The wife learned everything. Then when she said, "Now I have learned whatever you wanted. Still why you are...?" "No, one thing. I cannot express that." "What is that?" "You do not abuse my father and mother. That you cannot do." These prostitutes, they abuse the father and mother. In Bengal it is known, rakta kedara vega.(?) They address like that. Then she said, "All right. Stop. I am no more your wife. I cannot abuse your father and mother. That is not possible. I have learned everything for your satisfaction, but I cannot learn this thing." The prostitute will not only abuse the paramour but his father, mother, family, everything, culture.
Prabhupāda: Electricity also can be temporarily, immediately fixed up. That is not difficult. (break) ...saying that "Our work will go on." If you cheat us in this way, then I will not engage you."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we have ten years' work to do.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But you must finish everything within that period. Plumbing and electricity we shall see. That is not very important. But it must be habitable. So if he thinks that it is possible, then let him go. Otherwise you engage only fifty men. (break) ...he cannot say, "There was no money." That is not possible. If you pay money, he must give the result. (end)
Prabhupāda: It is less than demonic. Demonic qualities, they have some activity and laziness is ignorance, darkness. Therefore too much sleeping is very, very bad. That is another part of laziness. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau **, one has to conquer over this sleeping and laziness. Eating, nidrā, ahāra, vihāra, sense gratification, vihāra means sense gratification. One has to minimize these things up to the point of nil, that is perfect. When there is no more sleeping, no more eating, no more mating, and no more fearing, that is perfection of spiritual life. And that is not possible, but as much as possible. (break) ...they cannot sleep more that the culture (?) is very great gain, profit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And one who follows His instruction, he also perfect. That we are pushing (indistinct) Kṛṣṇa conscious, everything will be all right. Everyone is fallen, I asked this question to Kotofsky. "Sir, you have got a leader, we have got a leader, so where is the difference?" And then I said, "Only you have got a fool leader, we have got intelligent leader." Otherwise you cannot avoid leadership, authority. That is not possible.
Dayānanda: They want to avoid but they... Impersonalists are catering to that desire, they want to avoid authority and so the impersonalists are encouraging that. So they are rascals, the...
Prabhupāda: No, it is not possible to give up authority. That is not possible.
Hṛdayānanda: Your interview, those articles that you had spoken about, against Communism, are very, very brilliant. Actually we were struck with wonder to see the different arguments. Very, very important for South America because there the Communism is popular among the young students.
Prabhupāda: They read it?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, we just published it in our magazine.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So they like that argument?
Prabhupāda: Then what is that life? That is the question. That life is soul. You have to accept. (break) ...car stop. Some machine broken. As soon as the machine is placed, now the motor car is fit for running, but not for the machine, but for the driver. When the driver is not there, you cannot create or purchase a driver. That is not possible. You can repair the machine, but without driver the machine will not run. So why they should be blind about this fact? What is this knowledge, advancement of knowledge? The body is created. If it is accepted-body is created by these material elements—now create another body. Just like dollmakers make a body, you also make a body, very beautiful woman, and give it life. Why they cannot do it?
Prabhupāda: Then what remains? The teeth is dangerous. Yes, how condemned life. And we had to pass through all these. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Nine lakhs of forms in the water. Crocodile is one of these. Just see how accurate is Vedic information. Never says "ten lakhs" or "eight lakhs." Nine lakhs. Now, if you don't believe, count. Go ahead. Count. How this knowledge is there? Nobody can go within the water to count how many forms are there, but how the Vedas gives the knowledge perfectly? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. This is Vedic knowledge. Where you cannot reach and you refer to Vedas, you'll get the knowledge. That is Vedas, perfect knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the example: stool is impure, rejectable. Everyone knows. Veda says, "No, cow dung is pure." And you examine it; you'll find it is pure. That is Vedic knowledge. When you get information from the Vedas, it is perfectly right. So it is easier to take knowledge from the Vedas. Then you'll become perfect in knowledge. There is no question of researching. That is not possible. What you'll research?
Prabhupāda: Life-size or not life-size. Three feet, four feet, that will be...
Haṁsadūta: The old exhibits can be sold to the visiting temples. They can take them back to their...
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible.
Jayapatākā: BBT.... BBT did such nice packing with this modern styrofoam that they could easily move even fragile dolls.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) What is that?
Jayapatākā: They brought the glass light thing, and they didn't break it, with this plastic foam.
Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. That plastic bullet is now in motorcar. Even if you fire, it will not enter, the bullet. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: Father takes care, "My dear child, don't do this. Don't touch fire." But still, he touches; he must suffer. The fire will not excuse because he is child. That is not possible. Nature's law will act.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This idea of freedom and independence, is it possible for anyone theoretically to surrender to Kṛṣṇa at any time?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So let's say someone is in a very degraded condition of life, modes of ignorance, passion. Their mind is always disturbed. Is surrender to Kṛṣṇa.... Is it possible that it can be independent even of the mind?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Madhudviṣa: If the Māyāvādīs don't believe in the difference between the soul and the Supersoul, then how can they... What is their explanation of reincarnation?
Prabhupāda: They say that this is not incarnation, it is māyā. Just like the sky is covered in a pot, and as soon as the pot breaks, the sky mixes with the big sky. That's all. That is their theory.
Madhudviṣa: So therefore they say God is covered.
Prabhupāda: Not God. You are covered.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, you analyze. Just like you take breathing. Breathing is taken as the life, breathing. When the breathing is stopped, then there is no life. So analyze this breathing. What is this breathing? It is air. So when breathing is stopped, then you can take air. There are so many persons here. And by some machine you can put within the heart or somewhere. Let the air go on passing. But that is not possible. Therefore immediately the air is rejected. Then take the bone, the muscle. Everything will be rejected. There is no life. So this is analytical study. And then what remains? That soul. Very common thing.
Dr. Patel: Kiṁ pariśiṣyate... (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: No, no. A devotee never thinks "I am body." "The body is mine, or body is given to me. So this body is given by Kṛṣṇa. Let this body be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service." Then it is all right. Both the prakṛtis, parā-prakṛti and aparā, is Kṛṣṇa's. So even if you say that spiritually you can serve, but this is also Kṛṣṇa's prakṛti. You cannot reject the body and simply take the soul. That is not possible. It is now combination. So the body, karmaṇā manasā vācā. So we are not rejecting this body. Why? This is also Kṛṣṇa's. How can I reject it? Kṛṣṇa's things must be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. This is real philosophy. You cannot say, "This is not Kṛṣṇa's." What is not Kṛṣṇa's? Everything is Kṛṣṇa's.
Prabhupāda: No, no, everyone has to work for Kṛṣṇa. Just like a prisoner in the prison house. He is also working for government, but he is forced to do it. Then nobody can escape Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Right, sir. But the scientist is not forced to do it. He freely does it.
Prabhupāda: No, anyone. Why scientist? Even cats and dogs, they are also doing for Kṛṣṇa. You cannot.... Nobody can say...
Dr. Patel: But scientist willingly does it to unearth the secret. Don't call him a rascal. The scientist does it.
Prabhupāda: No, I don't say. Kṛṣṇa says.
Carol Jarvis: As I just said, they probably will some day.
Prabhupāda: That "probably" again. That is not possible.
Carol Jarvis: Oh, I don't know. I don't know.
Prabhupāda: You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it. You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it. "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal.
Guru-kṛpā: Perhaps they can keep you young.
Carol Jarvis: That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him...
Prabhupāda: Who is.... Who is...
Prabhupāda: You.... You cannot expect any good thing to be taken up by mass of people. That is not possible. In university, when matriculation candidates, there are so many. Then B.A. candidates, so many. And when you come to the M.A., Ph.D., a very few number.
Doug Warvick: Why is that?
Prabhupāda: You cannot expect that everyone should be M.A., Ph.D. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness is like that. It is not meant for ordinary persons. Those who are very intelligent, they can understand it. Ordinary men, they cannot understand even that he's not this body. What he will understand about Kṛṣṇa? Therefore the beginning understanding is that "I am not this body." When you are firmly convinced about this science that you are not this body, then Kṛṣṇa consciousness beginning.
Prabhupāda: There is no argument. "You remain yourself. Let us remain peaceful. You remain peaceful. We are following our mahājana." Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). We have got so many exalted mahājanas. Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Nārada, Asita, Devala, Arjuna, in recent, in the recent years, within two thousand years, all the ācāryas. So we are safe. We don't require your help. Bas. If you are satisfied with whatever you have understood, you remain. (break) ...authorities. And the most exalted of them is Kṛṣṇa, so we have no doubt. You cannot make us doubtful. That is not possible.
Guru-kṛpā: But I think they are doubtful, though.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise why they complain? They're doubtful.
Guru-kṛpā: Asaṁśayaṁ samagram.
Prabhupāda: And they're taking it, highly civilized way of life. Where you are going? You cannot go beyond this earth. You attempted so much to go to the moon planet, you failed. And where you can go, put-put-put-put? You'll have to stay here. But that rascal does not understand. He thinks, "I am going very fast." Where you are going? You are destined to stay here. That he does not understand. Not only this put-put motorcycle, the put-put airplane also. They're also trying to go to this planet around, round. That sputnik, first sputnik, eighteen thousand miles, and they simply rounded over the world in one hour and twenty-five minutes. And where did you go? And when he's tired, then come down again. They cannot understand, these so-called scientists, that we cannot go in this way. There is higher authority. Why it will allow us to go anywhere? Just like the horse running fast, but within the race course. That's all. It cannot go beyond the race course. And similarly, however heroic expedition we may show, you are, what is called, baddha-jīva, conditioned. You cannot cross the condition, that is not possible.
Prabhupāda: They'll think like that, the same way. There is no ex... (break) ...pregnancy, first, second, third, then eighth, and the child will go, take birth and... They are thinking like that. So the modern civilization, we are everyone saying. Because you have forbidden: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. The whole Western world living on these four pillars. Just see our position. And the same conscious way, everyone is thinking, "If this movement goes on, then how all these nightclubs will go on? How all breweries will go on? How all slaughterhouse will go on, cigarette factories will go on?" This is all foolish. So you cannot expect that we will get more, many friends. That is not possible, because the world is full of Kaṁsas, demons. So we have to struggle and... In the face of so many obstacles we have come to this standard that there is one Hare Kṛṣṇa movement; it is very dangerous to the modern way of life.
Prabhupāda: That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure. "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Classless society.
Prabhupāda: They are taking themselves the superior position to make it one.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Yes. That's a fact.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like some of the rascal swamis come here that "There is no teacher of.... No require teacher, no need of books."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why do we need them?
Prabhupāda: And these rascals are writing books, that "There is no need of book."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That happened. One swami said, "Now you.... Meditation means don't think of anything." So then one of our men at the meeting raised his hand and said, "Then why do we need you?" So he got very angry. He said, "If the mind should do nothing, what do we need you for?"
Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious—they are already—that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not.... That is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first-class rascals. Which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die?
Prabhupāda: Simply faith, blind faith we do not endure. And therefore they are becoming godless. And gradually, if we do not understand factually what is God, then the whole human civilization will be godless. To become godless means again animal. That is the difference between animal and man. In the animal society there is no question of religion, faith, God. These things are not there. The human civilization, if it becomes like that, without any faith in God, without any understanding of God, then where is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? They must know God scientifically. That is the actual aim of human life. Suppose the dog is sleeping on the street without any care whether a car is coming and smash it. He's also sleeping sound sleep. And we are sleeping in a very nice apartment. So after all, sleeping. And he is also enjoying sleeping, I am also enjoying sleeping. So do you think to change the, I mean to say, circumstances of the sleeping? I am sleeping in a very nice apartment, he's sleeping on the floor. Does it mean this is advancement of civilization? Sleeping is sleeping. Eating is eating. Sex life—the male dog is enjoying with female dog. The sex pleasure is to him, and we are enjoying with a beautiful lover. The sex pleasure is the same. Therefore, you take some eatable, either on gold fork or an iron fork, the taste is the same. Simply like putting the foodstuff in the golden fork, does it mean the taste has changed? So, the test of eating, sleeping, mating and defending is the same for the human being as well as the animals. What difference, what is the difference between the animals and humans? The animal cannot know God. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: So, there must be father. This is conclusion. So who is sanctioning about the father? The answer is in the Bhagavad-gītā: ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4), "I am father." You cannot denying father; that is not possible. If there is mother, if there is child, there must be father. This is human sense. And animal sense is: "I don't care for father. There may be father, may not be..." That is animal sense. So do you want to keep the human society in such ignorance just like cats and dogs? The dogs do not care who is father. This movement wants to give education to the human society: "Yes, there is father." And that is actual fact. Without father how there is child? Is it possible? Then? For at the present moment, the human society is child playing on the lap of mother, that's all. In big, big motorcars, that's all. Without any knowledge of father.
Prabhupāda: But, he lives on the lap of mother, that's all.
That is child. Child is satisfied on the lap of the mother, that's what I am saying. He doesn't.... The child doesn't care, "I have to know the father." But there is father, that's a fact. That means the present civilization is childish civilization. Does not care to know the father. So, whether the human civilization will remain child, children. They fight amongst themselves. Children, however you can.... "My dear children, live peacefully." So for the time being they may be. Again they will fight, they will cry. That is going on. What the United Nations has done? For the last forty years, they're fighting like children or animals. So you keep..., if you keep them as child or animals, do you think there will be peace? That is not possible. It is to the talking of big, big words for peace. That is not possible. It is futile attempt. They're talking of big, big wars (indistinct), that is not possible. I think in Melbourne I, in my press interview, I said if the United Nations is working.
Prabhupāda: They are imitating. You understand people are very expert in this subject matter. They have come.... Learning everything.
Devotee (1): We can't avoid serving.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible.
Rāmeśvara: That's all there is in life, is service.
Prabhupāda: Now we are sitting, so many gentlemen. He's having some paper, and you are serving God. The service is there. Nobody can say, "No, I don't serve anyone." Is there any man? No. That is not possible. You must serve. Constitutionally, you are meant for service, either you are president of the state or is anything. That is your position. That is the beginning of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). All living entities are eternal servant of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is nicely done?
Prabhupāda: Hmm. (japa) (break) ...that he is not my father, that is not possible.
Rāmeśvara: They say that the atom is the source of everything.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Rāmeśvara: They say that the atom, the little particle, is eternal, original.
Prabhupāda: But you rascal, you are not coming from atom; you are coming from your father. That is my reply. You rascal, you are coming from your father, not from the atom.
Rāmeśvara: And they thought that "If I pull out the electrical plug on this machine, then it will be murder." She was already dead, and the doctors fixed this machine to keep her heart.... Now they were afraid of pull out the plug.
Prabhupāda: Not dead. Not dead. Dead cannot be continued by electricity. That is not possible.
Hari-śauri: Spirit soul was still there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The soul was still there, but not in that condition.
Rāmeśvara: So then there was no movement, no thinking, everything was...
Prabhupāda: Unconscious, that may be.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Terrible karma, like a tree.
Prabhupāda: They have to imitate. Otherwise, they cannot struggle. Just like they have made the 747 airship. But the shape is like a bird. You cannot make other shape. That you cannot do. If you make the shape of the 747 airplane like a man, it will finish. So you have to take knowledge from God's creation. You cannot create independently. That is not possible. Just like ships and boats, they are shaped like fish, the same shape; otherwise, you cannot run on water. That is not possible. The original design is made by God, and you have to follow.
Gopavṛndapāla: We told you yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about the hang-gliders? They hang on wings and then they glide down from the cliffs like birds. To make the gliders they had to study the birds' movements for many, many years just to get the right shape for the wings.
Prabhupāda: Now, if He is ordering to become His devotee, how can I try to become another God, competitor? This is the folly, and for this we are suffering. He asked him, "You become My devotee." And I want to become another God, competitor. And therefore we are suffering. We cannot become another God. That is not possible. But artificially you are trying. Therefore you are suffering. Anything you try artificially, you'll suffer. If you try for a thing artificially, then what is the result? Result will be suffering and disappointment. Therefore śāstra says, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovidaḥ. Don't try for such things... You have tried all through in different forms of life. You have failed. So don't try for that. But try to become servant of God. Then your life will be successful.
Prabhupāda: The yogis can do that. Or if you can walk on the water... The yogis can do it. This is called laghimā-siddhi, to become light, very light. So that... By yoga practice you can do that. So animā, laghimā, siddhi, prāpti, mahimā—there are so many siddhis. So siddhi-kāmī, they are also desiring something. And the jñānīs, they are also desiring something, and karmīs, they are also desiring something. The bhakta, he does not desire anything. Therefore peacefulness is for him, because he does not desire anything. He does not ask God anything. That is śūnyam. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (BRS 1.1.11)—no motive. That "I am becoming a devotee for this purpose"—no, that is not pure devotee. "I am eternal servant of God, so it is my duty to serve Him, that's all." That is peace. And so long he'll desire, then he'll not have any peace. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Four annas. (laughter) For four annas I'll have to try for four hundred years. Why mystic power? To show some jugglery—"How I can fly in the sky, I can walk on the water"—by this mystic power, they create amazement and become imitation God. Imitation God you can become, but you cannot become real God. That is not possible. That is warned. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). That's all. Asamaurdhva: "Nobody equal to Me; nobody better than Me." So why should you waste your time to become God? You cannot become actually. So why should you waste your time? Remain servant. Then you're actually.... Get this light. No, no that, inside. You can give me little pineapple juice. Is it possible?
Hari-śauri: Right now?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: Yes.
Prabhupāda: "All right, let me see how your strength is coming. Now I shall kill you, come on. Let me see (laughs) how your God is coming to save you." This is atheism, challenging. And when He appeared, the Hiraṇyakaśipu became a fly (laughs) in front of.... Eh? Where is such language? Even there are many Sanskrit scholars now, they cannot produce such language. That is not possible. And five thousand years before, Vyāsadeva presented this unique language.
Rāmeśvara: This is the twentieth volume of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam now printed, twentieth volume.
Prabhupāda: Number twenty.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that.... One has to come to this conclusion undoubtedly. And that is education. Her education is now complete, that he (she) has understood, he (she) is trying to explain scientifically that there is life after death. That is complete education. So everyone should try by his education to establish what is already said in the śāstras. That is a fact. When Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one gets another body, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre... (BG 2.20). Kṛṣṇa says there cannot be any mistake. So if scientist, philosopher, establishes the statement of Kṛṣṇa by their scientific knowledge, that is real perfect scientific knowledge. And if he wants to defy the statement of Kṛṣṇa, that is māyā. That is not possible. But he's vainlessly trying to do that. But if one by scientific knowledge establishes what Kṛṣṇa says, that is perfection.
Prabhupāda: Ah, na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam. This prayāsa, endeavor for economic development, na kartavyam, don't do it. Here is a revolution against this modern civilization. They are simply after economic development, and here it is condemned. It is condemned that this kind of endeavor is simply wasting the balance of our life. If one is intelligent, he sees that "I have got, say, ten thousand dollars in the bank balance, now I must utilize it properly so that it may not be spent," that is intelligence. Similarly, we have begun our death from the date of birth. Daily, every moment we are, our balance is being decreased. So therefore we should be intelligent. So long the balance is there, let me utilize it properly by which I can be really benefited. So the ideal of my benefit is that I'm suffering in this material condition of life, to stop this conditional life, to get freedom life. That is the aim of life. And that freedom can be achieved only by going back to home, back to Godhead. Not any other way. You cannot get the freedom of life here in this material.... That is not possible. Although you are trying for it. Everyone is trying to.... (aside:) Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja can come in. Yes. So without endeavor for this purpose, if we are simply trying to develop our economic condition, that is.... What is that? Āyur-vyayaḥ? What is that word?
Prabhupāda: That is not actual fact. Drinking, nobody can be happy by drinking. That is not possible.
Richard: Okay, okay. You said in the purport that tragedies of life—I'm paraphrasing—tragedies of life such as death of even a close relative are mere incidental occurrences. Is...? But you said earlier that death to you was anything but a mere incidental occurrence, that it was the...
Prabhupāda: No, we are not irresponsible to the death. Death, although we have to meet death, we are making provision that after death we become happy. Happy, of course, for us, even in living condition or dead condition, there is happiness, but it will take time to understand. But taking superficially, death is not very pleasing, so after death, that is mentioned in the Bha.... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9), we do not get again a material body. This is final.
Prabhupāda: They do not want to work. Therefore they take advantage of Sunday. Inclination is not to work. But unfortunately that is not possible. If they do not work, they cannot eat. But if we say that "There is a place, without working you can eat, and for example come to us," they will not accept. Then they will say, "You are escaping. You are escaping." (laughs) If you work, that you don't like, and if somebody does not work, he's escaping.
Hari-śauri: Envy.
Prabhupāda: No, there is father, you do not know. You are blind. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (Bg 7.10). Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). God says there that "I am the seed-giving father." Otherwise, how it is possible to beget children? You are experienced that unless the father gives the seed, there is no question of children. So how they can deny the father? You may have seen or not seen, doesn't matter. But there must be father. Just like Jābāla Upaniṣad, Gautama Muni asked that Satyaka, "Who is your father?" First of all said: "Are you brāhmaṇa?" "Sir, I do not know." "Who is your father?" "I do not know." "Go and ask your mother." Mother asked, she said, "I do not remember who is your father." She never denied, that "You had no father; you were automatically born." She never said that. She said only that "I don't remember who is your father." And he wanted.... (aside:) Don't. Want to that service.(?) So the mother said that "I do not remember who is your father." So he said frankly, that "My mother does not remember who is my father." So Gautama Muni accepted him, that "You are so truthful; so you are brāhmaṇa. I will accept you." Nobody would like to say that "My mother does not remember who is my father." But he said that. Therefore he accepted him that "You are so truthful. I'll accept you as my disciple." So the point is, the mother said "I do not remember who is your father." But the mother did not say that "You are born without father." That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to do that. Better make it a doll exhibition. And give them prasāda free. Restaurant in the city, that is all right. Not here. Nobody will come to the restaurant from the city. That is not possible. But we give them free prasāda. (japa) (break)
Makhanlāl: ...Prabhupāda, you mentioned that soon there will not be so much use for automobiles. What will be our means of spreading the saṅkīrtana movement?
Prabhupāda: We shall walk. You'll have good exercise. (laughter)
Makhanlāl: By oxcart also?
Prabhupāda: If possible; if not, walk. What is that?
Prabhupāda: They chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?
Devotee (1): No.
Prabhupāda: Then, that is not possible. (laughter)
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They'll not last.
Devotee (1): But Śrīla Prabhupāda, they mistake us. When we go up and approach them with our books, they think, "Oh, you are this rascal." They know he's a cheater. And it's causing a lot of difficulty with our distribution. I was just wondering what we can do about it.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Hari-śauri: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: You see this black men. They earn sufficient money, but see their home. See their home. You America, you have given them equal rights, they are getting money, but they have no culture. Therefore you may pay them as much as you like, but still poverty-stricken. In Africa also I have seen that they have got their own kingdom, independence, but if we go to the African slums, they are poverty-stricken, wretched. So this civilization will not endure. If there is no culture, simply by money you cannot maintain a standard of civilization. That is not possible. Now the American leaders they are thinking, "Let us have money, then everything..." Of course, by money you are covering all the defects of the social culture. But this will not endure. Day will come and everything will be exposed. Therefore culture required.
Prabhupāda: He is the best.... He could have personally owned this palace and lived very luxuriously. He has got the means. But he did not like that. He gave it to the Vaiṣṇavas. So money cannot solve the problems. That is not possible.
Devotee (1): This is a very logical argument of preaching. When you tell them that the standard of happiness is not material opulence, people are willing to accept, because they see they are not becoming more happy.
Prabhupāda: They think like that, but that is not the solution of problems. So you discuss on this point.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They think like that because of false propaganda. So if we counterattack with the right propaganda, people will hear it.
Prabhupāda: Everyone's body is temporary, either human body or cat's body, dog's body. But the human body is important because in the human body we have developed consciousness by which we can understand what is God. The cats and dogs, they cannot, they haven't got that developed consciousness. Therefore if we do not use this developed consciousness for understanding God and our relationship with Him, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Cats and dogs cannot be educated about God, but a human being can be educated. That is the distinction between animals and man. But modern education is keeping them in ignorance about God, so they are no better than cats and dogs. And how can you bring peace among cats and dogs? Can you bring in peace calling all the dogs of your city and sit down peacefully? No, that is not possible. So if we keep our citizens like cats and dogs, then how we can expect peace?
Kern: I'm thinking of the retarded, the Mongoloid, the encephalitis, those who are born with...
Prabhupāda: Nobody's born intelligent; that is not possible.
Kern: No, I understand. You see, it mentions in there that.... I was thinking what message do you have for the parents of a child...
Prabhupāda: How to train them first class.
Kern: No, this is a retarded...
Scheverman: A child that is born handicapped, intellectually handicapped.
Kern: Cannot walk nor talk.
Prabhupāda: Honesty. So there are so many things. If we want to make the whole human society very peaceful and happy, then we have to divide the society into four classes. Not that everyone will be peaceful. That is not possible. But if we have an ideal class of men who is following austerity, peacefulness, purity, knowledge, people will learn: "Oh, here is the ideal class."
Kern: Mr. Gandhi had a great effect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That training is lacking now.
Scheverman: I think all over the world it is lacking, it is needed, right.
Prabhupāda: That's all right; fighting is also required. When there is enemy, we are not discarding fighting. Fighting there will be. So long we are in the material world, there will be disagreement and there will be fight. You cannot stop it; that is not possible. So a class of men, they should be trained up fighting. A class of men, they should be trained up for teaching. A class of men for producing food. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). There are so many things. If you take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement cooperatively, it will be very, very good for the whole human society. And if your America takes up this call very seriously, others will follow.
Prabhupāda: I was talking of these cars. The dog is running on legs, and they are running on cars. So, (laughs) actually what is the difference? This is advancement of civilization, that the dog is running for nothing, here and there on legs, and human being is running on nice car. Does it mean there is advance in civilization? If we keep the human being like cats and dogs, without any advancement of knowledge, the cats and dogs, they cannot accept any advanced knowledge. That is not possible. Similarly, if human society is kept in darkness without any advanced knowledge, without any knowledge of the aim of life and without any knowledge what is the meaning of human life, they'll remain as cats and dogs. So as cats and dogs, if they are practiced to run here and there, either on legs or on cars, is that advancement of civilization?
Prabhupāda: That's it. And that is the root cause of all problems, that they are missing the father. He is the maintainer. Godless. Is it possible that the mother gives birth to a child without father? Is there any experience in the history of the world, the mother has given birth to a child without connection with the father? They say, "We have not seen father." That does not mean there is no father. A child may not have seen his father. There are many children, but that does not mean that he has no father. There must be father. And so if there is father, no father, how you know it? Suppose you have not seen. You ask the mother, "Mother, am I born without father?" Mother says, "No, you have got your father." Or she can show, "Here is your father." So you cannot understand the father by your research work. You have to take the knowledge from the mother, authority. There is no other way. You cannot make any experiment or research knowledge who is father. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: No, we want to, what is called, reject that society. We cannot become sympathetic with everyone. That is not our policy. Asat-saṅga-tyāga vaiṣṇava ācāra. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was asked what is the general behavior of a Vaiṣṇava, He said that the first thing is that you should give up bad company. So these are bad company. We cannot have any sympathy. We cannot make any compromise with everyone. That is not possible. The modern scientists, they have made quarantine? Quarantine? What is that?
Hari-śauri: Separation.
Prabhupāda: Hah.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I never said that "You have to give up this, you have to do this." Never said. Then gradually ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). When the heart becomes cleansed, then little. There is no hopelessness. So many people have come, and they are coming. Both black, white, everyone is coming. There is no question of (indistinct). But you cannot expect that cent percent people will come; that is not possible. But even, even one-fourth percent people come to this, then it will be successful. Compared to the American population, what percentage we have got? Still they have made some impression, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Literatures are selling, they are appreciating, learned circle.
Prabhupāda: The atheist will suffer. Just like anyone who is outlaw, does not believe in the government's law, he'll suffer. If somebody says, "I don't care for government laws," then he'll suffer. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). He's a rascal. He may say so, like madman, that "I don't care for government and government laws," but naturally he'll be punished. He'll be put into jail and suffer. That he cannot check. He may, with empty words, he can say "I don't care for government," but does it mean that he can escape the government laws? That is not possible. Government will see that "Here is a lunatic rascal. Put him into the jail," that's all. Is it not? Is it not practical?
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, you and me, but we are talking of government laws. Whether you'll be punished, I'll be punished, that is different thing. Anyone will be punished. There is no question, "I" and "you." It is not that I am very favorite and you are not favorite. Anyone who will violate the government's laws will be punished. Who can deny it? It is not the question of "I" and "you." Anyone. How you can become independent of the laws? That is not possible. You have to accept God.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Christians say that God is very merciful.
Prabhupāda: Even in the stool, the worms in the stool, he's also thinking "I have got so much stool to eat." This same mastership. "I am the monarch of all I survey. I have got so much stool." And you just take the worm from the stool, put it here: "No, no, no, here is my enjoyment." This mastership mentality is there in Brahma, and the mastership mentality is there in the worm of the stool. This mentality you have to give up. Then you become liberated. That is liberation. The bondage is that mastership mentality. He's servant, but he's thinking falsely that he's master. Just like your President Nixon. He thought that "Now I have become master of America, I'm president." He forgot that he's servant. As soon as the people wanted, dragged him down. That he forgot, that "I'm servant of the people." So everyone is servant, but falsely thinking "I'm master." That is material disease. The best thing is that if I have to remain servant, why not become servant of Kṛṣṇa? That's all. That is perfection. That is perfect life. Even by becoming a false master of the whole American country, I was not happy, I am now dragged down as a common man, Mr. Nixon, then what is the use of becoming master? It is all false. Let me become servant of Kṛṣṇa; then it is perfect. Instead of becoming a false master of the American country, let me be a real servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is liberty, liberated. Because any stage of my life, to become master is false. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: You cannot please Kṛṣṇa directly. You please your spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. If you want to please directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. That is concoction You cannot please. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. You have to please your spiritual master, then Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Don't jump. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya **. What is that song you daily sing? What is that?
Pradyumna: By the words of the spiritual master our mind becomes conclusive from...
Prabhupāda: Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't concoct. Don't you sing daily? Āra nā koriha mane āśā. Don't manufacture ideas. That is dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu teaches by His example. Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karilā śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu said to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that "My spiritual master saw Me fool number one, so he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read Vedānta; chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' So I'm doing." (motorcycle in background) Just hear. He has come to this turn. This sound is purposefully created? (motorbike going back and forth through much of the tape)
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lāvaṇyam, now you know very well in the Western country. Beauty increases by having long hair. (laughter) I was just trying to recite this verse only, and now see how it is current. Who expected that this foretelling is there in the Bhāgavatam? To increase beauty, have long hair. Is it not? Now just see. How five thousand years this thing was foretold? That is the proof. There was no hippie movement then. (laughs) But Vyāsadeva foretold that in the Kali-yuga if one keeps long hair he will think himself as very beautiful. There are so many things. Ultimately, with the advancement of Kali-yuga you'll have no food. Food means there will be no food grains, there will be no milk, there will be no sugar, like that. No fruits. If you get fruits, there will be no pulp, it is simply seeds. These things are there. You get a mango, but a mango means simply the big seed, that's all. So how can you check it? If nature's way, things are going to happen like that, what the scientists will do? If there is no rice, no wheat, will the scientists...? They can say replace with a pill, but they cannot produce wheat or rice or dahl or milk, sugar. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this... There are two kinds of men already described, daiva asura eva ca. These two kinds of activities will go on. This is material world. You cannot find out cent percent perfect man. That is not possible. There are a class of men, imperfect, will be there. But it is being described who is imperfect and who is perfect. That you have to select. You cannot clear this material world of imperfect persons. That is not possible. There will be remain, but you must know who is perfect and who is imperfect. And make your choice, whether you want to remain imperfect or want to make progress to become perfect. That is up to you.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It seems almost like a contradiction in one sense, that prabhavanti, that they flourish and at the same time, ksayaya.
Prabhupāda: No, that is foolishness. Everyone wants to exist, struggle for existence, but they do not know how to exist. That is foolishness. Everyone wants to exist because actually he is eternal. He doesn't like to be destroyed. That is his natural inclination. But he does not know. We are giving the formula that if you want to exist, then you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are giving the right information. But they want to exist in their wrong way of existing. That is not possible.
Devotee (4): Why is it that the demon, he feels happy if someone else is distressed.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee (4): Why does the demoniac mentality, that they feel happy if they see someone else in distress?
Prabhupāda: They have not done. Has everyone got the president's power? How do they say that you have done. Everyone equal? That is not possible. These are imagination. Mano-rathenasato dhāvato bahiḥ Everything is there in the Bhāgavatam. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. These rascals who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they have no value. They are simply speculating within the mind, mano-rathena, and they'll act all abominable, because they are on the mental platform. I'll say "I think like this," you'll say "I think like this." And nobody, none of us perfect. Then what is the use of your thinking like this or thinking like that? Both of them are imperfect. So if so many rascals sit together, or dogs, they simply bark, that's all. It has no value. So our propaganda is that "Don't remain in the dog platform.
Prabhupāda: Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramātmā understanding little higher. And Bhagavān understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Māyāvādīs, they do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta (SB 10.2.32). Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky... Go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say "so'ham," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky. Will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible.
Prabhupāda: By the arrangement of eternal time, everything is available. The example is given that you do not want something distressful. As it comes upon you, similarly, even if you do not want, the happiness for which you are destined, it will come. Now, Prahlāda Mahārāja says, na tat-prayāsaḥ kartavyam. You should not waste your energy for material happiness. Because you cannot get material happiness more than what you are destined to have. That is not possible. "How shall I believe..." Because you get something distressful condition although you do not want. Who wants? In our country Mahatma Gandhi was killed by his own countrymen. Who did want it? Or why did it come? He was great man, he was protected by so many and.... Still, he was to be killed. Destiny. He was killed. Who can protect you? "So if the distressed condition come compulsory upon me, the other condition, the opposite number, also will come.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Fatalistic in this sense, that the destiny cannot be changed. Just like I have given already the example, that the Mahatma Gandhi, nobody expected that he would be killed by his own countryman. Why it happened? This means destiny cannot change. This is a prominent example, that Mahatma Gandhi, he was in a big meeting. Who expected that Mahatma Gandhi could be killed, and by his own countryman? But it was done. That is destiny. You cannot check it. So our point is that... The whole Vedic civilization is that destiny, a certain amount of happiness in this material world... Nobody is enjoying uninterrupted happiness. That is not possible. A certain amount of so-called happiness and certain amount of so-called distress.
Prabhupāda: Fatalistic... I have given this example also. Just like a man is condemned by the law court to be hanged. Nobody can check it. Nobody can check. Even the same judge who has given this verdict, he cannot check. But if he begs for the mercy of the king, he can check it. He can go all above the law. Therefore, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said that destiny can be changed by Kṛṣṇa for His devotees. Otherwise it is not possible. If one is condemned to death, Kṛṣṇa can check it. Otherwise, it is falsehood when Kṛṣṇa.... Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66)," I shall give you protection from all reaction of sinful activities." Suppose you are to be killed by somebody on account of your sinful activity. Nobody can check it, ordinarily, but Kṛṣṇa can check it. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa's telling false, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi, "I shall give you protection." So therefore our business should be only to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And if you artificially want to be more happy by economic development, that is not possible. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: That is a false attempt. Because more or less, there will be a class of men who are truthful. You cannot abolish. More or less, there will be a class of men who are sinful. So as soon as you want to pick up from a family, then it is mistake, miscalculated. That caste system should be abolished. But real classification... Not caste. It is classification. Intelligent class of men, or truthful class of men, the fighter class of men, that will continue all over the world. You cannot abolish it. Even if you abolish caste system in India, you cannot abolish the class of truthful men. That is not possible. In spite of so much degradation, a class of men will remain truthful, a class of men will remain sinful. More or less. You cannot abolish this. So this is false attempt. And this caste system is also false. It is not based on the right description of caste system.
Prabhupāda: Saṁskāra... The real aim is to bring the rascal to the platform of knowledge. That is called saṁskāra. Janmana jāyate śūdra. By birth everyone is the same, śūdras, means without any knowledge. But the saṁskāra means śūdra, rascal, without any knowledge of spiritual life, to gradually bring him to the spiritual platform. That is called saṁskāra. And saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. That is essential. The human life is the opportunity for understanding what he is and what is the aim of his life. The aim of life is back to home, back to Godhead. We are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are in this material existence. So aim is again come to our spiritual life, spiritual existence, where there is no struggle for existence, blissful, happy life. Because actually we want happiness, blissful life. That is not possible in the material world.
Prabhupāda: So that is not possible in this... Taking consideration of the time, circumstances, it is not possible. There are different kinds of karma-kāṇḍīya-yajña. It is expensive also and there is no expert brāhmaṇa to guide how to perform this yajña. So Kali-yuga, it is not possible to perform yajñas. Kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ (SB 12.3.52). In the Treta-yuga yajñas were possible. Dvāpare paricaryāyāṁ kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt, that in this age of Kali-yuga the real yajña is hari-kīrtana. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Therefore those who are intelligent, having good brain substance, they take to this yajña, saṅkīrtana-yajña. And practically we are experiencing, simply by saṅkīrtana-yajña, even the lowest person in the sinful activities, he is becoming purified. So karma-kāṇḍa is, to revive them in this age is not possible. Neither jñāna-kanda. That is also not possible. People are so fool and rascal that it is impossible. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura said... He has condemned karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa.
Prabhupāda: So unless one comes to the platform of devotional service, one cannot understand. But for general understanding this philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.... That is explained in this verse. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). The living entities are part and parcel of God. So if God is gold, then living entities are also gold. This is equality in quality. But God is great, and we are always subordinate. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. We are protected, we are maintained, we are predominated. That is our position. We cannot attain the position of predominator. That is not possible.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, question 17. "What is the future of Hinduism?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes, that is the process in the Bhagavad-gītā. There are 18 chapters. The whole 18 chapters is the education how to know God. And when Arjuna completely in awareness he accepted, "Kṛṣṇa, You are paraṁ brahma, paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12)," that is understanding. Then surrender, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Unless you know God, how you'll surrender? If some third class man comes, "You surrender unto me." Will you do that? Why shall I surrender to him? You must know, "Now, here is God. I must surrender." The 18th Chapter is described to know God, and then Kṛṣṇa proposes, "Surrender unto Me." Then Arjuna did it, "Yes." So without knowing, how you can surrender? Know God. Then you surrender. Otherwise how, blindly, you can surrender? That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: "Deed should be made in favor of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, Founder-Ācārya, International Society. But it cannot be dedicated to any office-bearer. So I suggest that you become the president on the temple and Upendra become the secretary, and either your brother or your wife can become the treasurer. There is no need of trustees. But in any circumstances, the temple cannot be a private property in the name of ISKCON. That is not possible."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "A private property in the name of ISKCON."
Prabhupāda: "If you want to keep it a private property, then the ISKCON name should not be utilized." Here you have understood that he's trying to utilize ISKCON's name...
Prabhupāda: ...to collect, and he'll be keeper. That should be frankly disclosed, that "This is not possible." So we shall write our Upendra? No, I have already written that he should be the secretary. No?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You mentioned earlier today that he was supposed to be one of the trustees, but now this is different, so...
Prabhupāda: So we are not going to make any trustee.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, no trustee.
Prabhupāda: That is wrong.
Kīrtanānanda: I understand.
Prabhupāda: Is there any purport?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana. This is not possible for neophyte devotees. The word guru-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple. That is the best possible gift the spiritual master has to offer.
Prabhupāda: I am proposing, think over it. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical.
Hari-śauri: That's very good.
Prabhupāda: Instead of the thing being wasted for nothing, let us devise some means, that you are eating, you can eat. And we want the skin, let us give him. What is the wrong there?
Prabhupāda: In Bhagavad-gītā it is said bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: (BG 18.55) "One can understand Me through bhakti." And the Vedic injunction is that "If one knows Me, or knows the Absolute Truth, God, then he knows everything." Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If somehow or other one knows the Absolute Truth, then he knows everything. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. That is the benefit of knowing the Absolute Truth. So a devotee knows everything. How it is possible? That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā,
- teṣām evānukampārtham
- aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ
- nāśayāmy ātma-bhāva-stho
- jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā
- (BG 10.11)
One may challenge, "How a person can know everything?" So Kṛṣṇa immediately replies that "I help him specifically." Teṣām evānukampārtham. "Just to show My personal, especial favor upon him, I light up the torch of knowledge, and he knows everything." So if Kṛṣṇa helps one to know everything, who can check it? That is not possible. This science must be there. We are not all-powerful. Kṛṣṇa is all-powerful means He can do everything.
Prabhupāda: So some other living entity who is prominent in this quality, prominent that, it does not make much difference. So long he is in the material qualities, he's entrapped. So get him out of this condition and put him into the spiritual platform. That is the solution. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. In the material world if you think that the quantity of goodness is now big than the other modes of nature, that does not make a solution. Next moment the passion will be prominent, next moment the ignorance will be prominent. You cannot check it or fix him up in one quality. It is not possible. That is not possible. The best thing is to bring him to the unconditional stage, transcendental stage. Sa guṇān... Keep him engaged in devotional service, he is free from influence of all these qualities. That is wanted.
Prabhupāda: That you do, but the position is like this. Our conclusion is that whatever they are saying, that is imperfect. That is not possible. And that is a fact. Therefore they change, after fifty years, they change. Because it's speculation. Therefore we say totally they are wrong, and they will take totally "From mythology," like that, this is going on.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now one aspect in that, now in Christian group also, some are trying to preach that these things are created by God, but they have a problem there.
Prabhupāda: Sense gratification is never helpful. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Sense gratification is required as far as..., as little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping. Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya, or advancement of spiritual life. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. They're required.
Prabhupāda: All other business subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya, as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding Kṛṣṇa instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyāsadeva writing so exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. (break)
Prabhupāda: So when you engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without (indistinct) spiritually (indistinct) we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Senses (indistinct) it should be purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised, that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema, if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the restaurant, hotel, if we take prasādam, so then you spiritualize your tongue. Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Kṛṣṇa, then it is properly utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: So when you come to the standard of bhakti, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). Unless you come to that stage, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, you will mistake. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). This siddhi means to become liberated from the bodily concept of life. So out of many millions of people, one gets the opportunity of becoming siddha, brahma-bhūtaḥ, and yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ (BG 7.3). And those who are siddhas, liberated, out of many of them, kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ. So how this Mr. Bannerji will understand Kṛṣṇa? He is not a bhakta, he cannot understand. He can talk of the honey within the bottle. He cannot taste it. If he wants to taste, somebody must be able to open the bottle and give him little. Then he'll get. Otherwise, let him lick up the bottle. (laughter) That's all. So those who are licking the bottle, they cannot say what is the taste of the honey. One must actually taste. That is possible, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55), that taste is available by the bhaktas, not by the so-called scholars. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Number? Yes, of course, no. Actually, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). Always to be chanted. But because you cannot do that, therefore you must fix up a number. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka, that "I must chant so many times." That is determination. I have prescribed to my disciples that "You must chant at least sixteen rounds." That is very easy. But there is saṅkhyā. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. The Gosvāmīs, they used to do that. So it is; otherwise, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. The chanting should go on twenty-four hours. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura used to do. He was simply chanting. But that is not possible for ordinary man. Therefore they should have a fixed up, that "I must chant so many times." That will fix up the determination. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. There must be some dṛḍha-vratāḥ, that "I must do it." Then the devotion grows very firm. If we become lenient, "All right, I shall do later on..." No, must be done. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). Dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Everything should be determined. Then spiritual progress will be rapid.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee (2): You cannot buy a devotee.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Devotee (2): You can buy someone to sweep the floor, but you cannot buy a preacher.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. So so long we remain devotees, our movement will go, without any check.
Devotee (2): Devotees should take over the world.
Prabhupāda: Yeah, that is... That is good for the world.
Prabhupāda: No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished, no. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body. But the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. You say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is?
Prabhupāda: Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. Things which are inconceivable, do not try to understand by argument. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. So our process, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to take knowledge from the authority. Unless we take knowledge from the authority, however we may go on arguing, we cannot come to the conclusion. The modern scientists, philosophers, they are arguing, but they do not come to the conclusion. If you want to take conclusion... Just like two lawyers are arguing in the court, but the conclusion is given by the authority, the judge. That one has to accept. So we take authority, the Bhagavad-gītā or Kṛṣṇa. He is accepted authority by all the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in the śāstra also, Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Devala, Asita. So our authority is confirmed. So if we take conclusion from the authority, then we benefit. Otherwise, with our limited knowledge, if we go on arguing, then we cannot understand the conclusion. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fact. We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit, God. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). "All these living entities, they are My part and parcel." Qualitatively, we are one. Just like a small particle of gold is also gold. It is nothing else. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, we have got that godly qualification. God can create. We can also create. That example I have given in my last magazine, that we have created this big 747 airplane, but we cannot create a mosquito. That is also plane, with pilot. That is God's creation. So the creative power, both of us, we have got, but we are limited, and He is unlimited. That is the difference. A drop of seawater contains the same chemicals, but the quantity of Atlantic Ocean and drop of Atlantic Ocean is not the same. So we are just like drop of the Atlantic Ocean, and God is Atlantic Ocean. That is the difference. But chemically test, the whole Atlantic Ocean is salty, we are also salty. Whatever chemical composition is Atlantic Ocean, we are also of the same chemical composition. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we show sometimes activities very wonderful, but still, God's activities are still more wonderful. That we cannot compare. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Of sane man. They are talking like insane man.
Ravīndra-svarūpa(?): But that inspiration is that we can always do something bigger and better than we've done before.
Prabhupāda: But still you cannot do in the final. That is not possible. Because you are finite. You are not infinite. Your knowledge is limited. You can do something up to some extent.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: They agree, they all agree,
Prabhupāda: They are giving bluff: "Yes we shall produce life. Wait for millions of years, wait for millions." This is nonsense. Who will wait for millions of years and see your scientific discovery?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, that is the fact. If you are actually scientist, then prove that there is God. That is your success of education. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito... (SB 1.5.22). Your education has meaning when by your education, by your scientific knowledge, you'll prove that there is God, He is so glorified. Then you are welcome. Then you are really scientist. And if you become a rascal, then you say "Oh, there is no need of God. We are going to manufacture. Just wait for one million years." Is that good proposal, I have to wait for one million years to see your scientific research work? And we shall allow such fools to flourish? That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Generally, the brahmacārī, student life; gṛhastha, married life; vānaprastha, retired life; and sannyāsa, renounced life. So at the end of life one should be renounced from all other responsibilities and completely devote his life for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. In this way, when a person dies in God consciousness, his life is perfect. This is Vedic civilization. Eight divisions, varṇa and āśrama. And if you simply produce śūdras, working class, then you cannot have any happiness. That is not possible. And nowadays democratic, if you send some śūdras to act as kṣatriyas, they cannot do it. You have got practical experience. In Vietnam, what happened?
Prabhupāda: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are śūdras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as kṣatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not kṣatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post. Just like you did not like your President, Mr. Nixon. So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously.
Prabhupāda: When they clear the land, we are going to construct a nice building for the school. As soon as it is done, then we will organize. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān... (SB 7.6.1). From the very beginning of life, this Bhāgavata principle should be trained. That is perfect. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). They should be trained up how to read at the house of the spiritual master. They should be trained up how to control the senses, dānta. Dānta means to practice how to control the senses. That is the difference between human being and animal. Animal cannot be trained up how to control their senses. That is not possible. But a human being can be trained up to control his senses. The yoga practice is meant for controlling the sense. Yoga-indriya-saṁyamī.
Prabhupāda: That is the real yoga practice, not that I indulge in sense gratification as I like, and I become a yogi. This is all bogus. This is not yoga. Yoga means how to control the senses. Then I can concentrate my mind towards God realization and self-realization. If my senses are always disturbing, it is not possible to apply my mind for self-realization. That is not possible. Therefore the yoga practice, preliminary practice, is yama-niyama, controlling, niyama, under regulative principles. They are all described in the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā and other Vedic literature also. And the ultimate end of yoga practice is to think of Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of yoga. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). By meditation, he always thinks... This morning I was walking near the (indistinct) falls, I told, "This is the best place for practicing yoga."
Prabhupāda: Yoga cannot be practiced in a fashionable way in a big city with (indistinct) meditation. That is not possible. He must be free from everything, and in a secluded place, alone, he should meditate on the Supreme Lord. That is real yoga. Controlling all the senses, all disturbances of the mind. Then it is perfect yoga. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1).
Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, how different is this Chapter Six different from the Patañjali's yoga-śāstra and the rāja-yoga?
Prabhupāda: I don't think there is any.
Dr. Sharma: There is no difference.
Prabhupāda: So in the Kali-yuga, this age, so many difficulties, social, political, religious, cultural. So in Kali-yuga the practice of yoga is not possible. It was possible in the Satya-yuga. Kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇum. That is meditation. That was possible in the Satya-yuga. But in Kali-yuga you can do that, the same achievement you can have by hari-kīrtana, by chanting the holy name of the Lord. And factually you'll find our, these disciples, young boys and girls, they are not practicing in a secluded place the yoga system. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. And bring any yogi in the world and talk with them and see the comparison. Because that is fashion only; it has no practical value. And here is practical value. Maybe one or two are successful, but mass of people, yoga practice is not recommended. That is not possible to be executed. But if you take to this hari-kīrtana movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, very soon, kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā śaśvac-chāntiṁ nigacchati. You see practically. They are young boys and girls. At least, they have given up the four principles of sinful life and they are practicing, and they will improve. If they stick to the principles, they will improve.
Prabhupāda: So even in the Vaikuṇṭha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Kṛṣṇa? Why not become Kṛṣṇa?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.
Vipina: Why doesn't Kṛṣṇa protect us from that desire?
Prabhupāda: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this.
Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?
Prabhupāda: That means you lose your independence.
Vipina: We also say that Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Kṛṣṇa, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is māyā it is called. You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.
Vipina: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.
Prabhupāda: No, you wanted to enjoy-enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.
Vipina: Hm, enjoy at your risk. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the fact.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you require spiritual master to guide you.
Guest (3): So I cannot know myself.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Guest (3): And intuition does not help.
Prabhupāda: Intuition is wrong. It is a practice. A thief thinks "I should steal." His intuition says. He's practiced to steal and intuition says "You steal." That is not guide. Intuition means that things which you are practiced, that's all. You are accustomed, that's all.
Guest (3): How does a man find out what his duty is?
Prabhupāda: That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā. What is that? Sa-doṣam api na tyajet (BG 18.48). Even your profession is infected with so many faults, you don't agree, don't give it up. He's giving the example: the fire is so nice, purify, still there is smoke. So in the material world, whatever you do, there will be some fault. If you want faultless action, that is not possible. Therefore we cannot give up your occupational duty even there are some faults. Sa-doṣam api na tyajet.
Prabhupāda: But artificially means that you accept the principle. So therefore we say that here is mother, land, and here is children, the plants, trees, birds, beasts, human beings. They are all coming from the earth. So mother is there, and the children are there. Then where is the father? You cannot say, "No, without father it has come." That is not possible. Then you are talking foolish. There must be father. This is conclusion. So how you can deny God? God is accepted in every religion as the supreme father or something like that, great. And God is there. But they say "Automatically coming" and big, big words. How do they explain? How things are coming from the earth, so many plants?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Never mind if he's born in low-grade family, but he's eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Do you mean to say unless one becomes a first-class brāhmaṇa he can go back to home, back to Godhead? No, that is not possible. So, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ śudhyanti (SB 2.4.18). The purificatory process... Just like these Europeans, Americans, they are being recognized as brāhmaṇas because they are pure devotees. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He says kṛṣṇa-bhajane nāhi jāti-kulādi-vicāra (CC Antya 4.67). Kṛṣṇa-bhajane, if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no such discrimination, even if you make that, because as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become the best brāhmaṇa. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).
So it is a humble attempt to stop their, this suicidal policy. They are practically committing suicide. They do not know what is the value of life and how they are spoiling it, this valuable life. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are trying to adjust things by the arrangement of external energy. That is not possible. Whatever adjustment they are making, so many big, big leaders, politicians, they came. Napoleon, Hitler, Gandhi, this, that, by the waves of material nature everything is driven away. In that way there is no possibility of adjustment. It is not... Kathacaturamanam mali mali javanam(?) How many, caturānana. Caturānana means Brahmā. They come and go, come and go. And there is no permanent life, it is all asat. So they should come to the sat platform, that is perfect. The more you remain strong in your spiritual life, then more it will be impressed, it will act. And if it actually is not spiritual life but theatrical performance, then it will not help.
Prabhupāda: Yes, another. This planet, what you have seen?
Rāmeśvara: That's the point, what we have seen about this planet?
Devotee (1): Could still be here. They found one in, where is that? In Ireland?
Prabhupāda: Cannot be extinct, that is not possible.
Devotee (1): In that lake?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But do you think they were on this planet?
Prabhupāda: No, no, may be on this planet, but it doesn't matter that it is extinct. You have not seen.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's a fact.
Prabhupāda: There is an example. In a water tank you throw one stone. It becomes a circle. And the circle expands, expands, expands unless the circle comes to the shore. Similarly our loving affair begins from personal self to family, from family to society, community, nation, international. But still, it is imperfect unless the circle reaches to the lotus feet of God. Then it is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce (CC Madhya 22.42). Here, any loving affairs, that is more or less lusty. A man or woman love each other with some desire, not without desire. That desire is sense gratification. But actually that is lust not love. Pure love can be exchanged in relationship with God. Here there are temporary... A boy, a girl or a man, a woman in relationship of love but it breaks as soon as the lusty desire is not fulfilled. So here there is no question of love. It is all lusty desire. Real love can be achieved when it is exchanged with Kṛṣṇa or God. Premā pum-artho mahān, that is the recommendation given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is the highest (indistinct) when we come on the loving platform with God, then we are satisfied. Big, big political leaders in our country like Mahatma Gandhi, he loved his country so much. But the result was that he was killed by his own men, by his country men. But this is not possible when the love is exchanged between God.
Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know what is the aim of life. Simply by false hopes they are trying to adjust things with material effects. That will never do that. Durāśayā. Durāśayā means it is useless hope. It cannot be. Just like we practically see that the, here in New York City, American people are very rich and intelligent, but they cannot stop this fire which is unwanted. They cannot stop it. That is not possible. Because they are living very high, 300 feet high or more than that, you are not safe still. You are still in the same danger. Because you are living in big, big skyscraper building, it does not mean that you will not die. Death is there also, birth, death, old age, disease, the real problems of life. It does not mean that because we have advanced in so-called material civilization, you have avoided birth, death. Even big, big scientists who gave us so many big, big inventions, but still they died. They could not invent something which will protect them from death, that at the time of death, give me this pill so that I will not die and I'll go on giving you more scientific advance. That is not possible. What is your question?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. It is more for the most intelligent class of men. So it, this movement, is for the most intelligent class of men.
Interviewer: But amongst the most intelligent classes.
Prabhupāda: Unless one is intelligent class, belonging to the in..., he cannot understand. So we don't expect that everyone is intelligent. Kṛṣṇa ye bhaja se baḍa catura. Unless one is very intelligent, he cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious, because it is a different subject matter. People are engrossed with the bodily concept of life. It is beyond that. So dull brain cannot understand what is beyond this body. So you cannot expect that everyone will understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible, but if some of the leading men, they take it seriously, then others will follow. Just like in our book, your signature is there, "Oh, George Harrison. Yes." They take it without any consideration. Kṛṣṇa book. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). If the leading man does something, then his followers also do. This is the way. So if some of the leading men of the world, they take this movement seriously, then people will be happy. There's no doubt about it. You have come alone, without any associate?
George Harrison: Just on my own.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Prabhupāda: God says like that, that "Anyone who understands Me..." Because one cannot understand God with material speculation; that is not possible. When he comes onto the spiritual platform, then he gets the required brain to understand what is God, and if he understands God, what He is, then he does not get any more this material body, he goes back to home.
Mike Robinson: And then he is with God forever.
Prabhupāda: Then he lives eternally, he lives eternally, no more change of body.
Mike Robinson: I see. Now, we've had two readings from your scriptures. Where did these scriptures comes from? Can you explain that briefly?
Prabhupāda: "I shall fight, give my all best, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied." So that.... Arjuna for his personal, he did not..., decline, but when he saw that "Kṛṣṇa wants it? All right." That is kṛṣṇa-prema. "Never mind I shall be aggrieved by killing my kinsmen, but Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That's all right." This is Kṛṣṇa philosophy. We cannot find this philosophy in the material world that "I shall work, and so many will be satisfied." That is not possible. "If I work, I must be satisfied." So these communists, they will work according to.... Everyone will show that "I have no capacity." So the production will reduce. And they'll have to beg.
Prabhupāda: Within thirty-six years there were two big wars, slaughter. Especially Europe. Nature will create. Pestilence. Somewhere there is pestilence, somewhere there is war, somewhere there is scarcity of food. But you cannot indulge in sinful activities. Then you'll be killed. Then nature's law will act. You may defy, that's your business, but nature will act in her own way. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot surpass. That is not possible. But they are foolish, they are trying to conquer over nature by their so-called scientific knowledge. They are such a rascal. You change the color of this fruit and flower, conquer over nature. So rascal, they talk rascal, "It will take millions of years." We have to wait million. "Yes, from chemical we shall bring life. Wait million of years." This is going on. And for such thing, big building, laboratory, research, scientific research. Big, big signboard. And the students out of disappointment, going to the roof and falling down, committing suicide. I saw it?
Devotee: Prabhupāda said we work for cultivating grains. All living entities to live together peacefully. (projector goes off)
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Bhagavān: You have done something very extraordinary.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I was explaining our ecstasy. (laughter) Who will feel that ecstasy? That is not possible. They can lecture only. No ecstasy. Here is ecstasy, that is the difference. Ecstasy means immediately on the spiritual platform. (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes, I offered him the post of editing.
Bhūgarbha: Now he's sorry. Now he's simply sitting in debt(?).
Prabhupāda: But he did not say no. He wanted to do conveniently. Then I thought, it will not be... (coughs). "When he will return, he'll do it." That is not possible.
Bhūgarbha: He gave me some of his books that he wrote, he gave me some to read. And actually the English in your books is much better than his books, so better he's not editing. It's coming out better.
Prabhupāda: No, he's not a good English scholar.
Bhūgarbha: Actually, he speaks perfect French also. And he got his Ph.D. from the University of Paris.
Prabhupāda: Paris or Dutch as well.
Prabhupāda: "Now, come and let us enjoy," he will give up this good food. He'll go for sex. Because he will think this is better than that. So one pleasure is rejected if one is engaged in better pleasure. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 9.59). So in the spiritual world the service of the Lord is so pleasing, that they can neglect this sex pleasure. That is spiritual world. They have no attachment for sex pleasure. Yadāvadhi mama cetaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhāmānudyata bata nārī-saṅgame bhavati mukha-vikāraḥ suṣṭu. When one spits on the sex pleasure, that means he is elevated in spiritual life. So in the material world that is not possible. But by training, by knowledge, one can be elevated. That is Gurukula. So these are the general principles. Now arrange.
Prabhupāda: That may be, you may be a teacher, but you'll remain only a worker. That is another thing. Just like Dronācārya, he taught, he remained a teacher. So we can become a teacher of a particular subject matter, but that does not mean you should be worker. Still, there are many professors, they are teacher, they are not worker. But if the teachers are available, why you should become a teacher? Let them teach. We have to save our time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupations unnecessarily, to develop economic condition. Is it not? But our philosophy is that you cannot develop your economic condition than you are destined to suffer or enjoy. So one should not waste his time for so-called development of economic condition. He should utilize his time for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which was not possible in any other form of life. When we had cat's and dog's life, tree's life, we could not do that, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now we have got human form of life, we should fully utilize it for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why should we waste our time for economic development? Economic development is not possible. Then every work, every city, they are trying to develop this economic condition, but they're struggling. Why they word it of "struggle for existence" is there? It is not possible. Why there are varieties of social position? Everyone could come on the same standard. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Another chapter begins. So they do not know how these subtle laws of material nature is working to give us opportunity to become master according to our idea, false idea. And we are actually suffering, sometimes as human being, sometimes as animal, sometimes as trees, sometimes as dog. So the mastership cannot be attained. That is not possible. In the false idea to become master we are becoming slaves of the laws of material nature. This is real position, and that is suffering. So when one comes to this understanding, that we are not master, we are servant, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births, if by chance one gets the association of the servant of the Lord, then he understands that he is not master, he's servant of Kṛṣṇa. And then he surrenders. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19).
Prabhupāda: "When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravaṇa and kīrtana (hearing and chanting), the seed will begin to sprout." Purport: "To live with devotees or to live in a temple means to associate with the śravaṇa-kīrtana process. Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution of śravaṇa-kīrtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, who engaged in the śravaṇa-kīrtana process without worshiping the Deity. However, one should not falsely imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura and abandon Deity worship just to try to engage in śravaṇa-kīrtana. This is not possible for neophyte devotees. The word guru-prasāda indicates that the spiritual master is very merciful in bestowing the boon of devotional service upon the disciple.
Prabhupāda: These are happening. But when you talk of that "You learn how to become brahmacārī," that they will refuse. This is the position. The aftereffect is very, very bad, either you get legally or illegally. Legally, we have to raise the children very nicely. Otherwise, they will, unwanted children, create so much trouble. You have to take care for their proper education, of their clothes.(?) We say, "Never mind, you have got children, give them proper education, make them devotees, make their life successful." We cannot say that "You kill them." That we cannot say. That is not possible. Neither we can pack them in the, what is that box?
Hari-śauri: Lockers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not possible for us. We welcome. But we must be well organized to utilize these poor souls for becoming first-class devotees. That should be done. Otherwise, sex life and the by-product, that is always troublesome, either you take this way or that way, it is troublesome. If it is not troublesome, why they are killing their own children? To avoid trouble. This is psychology. They want to avoid trouble. But our process is, if you want to avoid trouble, then don't marry, remain brahmacārī. If you cannot, then, all right, have legal wife, get children and raise them very nicely, make them Vaiṣṇavas, take the responsibility. So we are organizing this society, we welcome. Some way or other we shall arrange for shelter. But to take care of the children, to educate them, that will depend on their parents. Now our Pradyumna was complaining that in the Gurukula, his child was not educated to count one, two, three, four.
Prabhupāda: ...is to approach God. This is the Indian tradition. But, as you have mentioned Aurobindo's name, Aurobindo's idea was to make a better situation of this world. He wanted by yoga practice, a better situation of the world. But our tradition says that is not possible.
Bhūgarbha: He asks what is meant by the situation in this world.
Prabhupāda: The situation is you have to suffer. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). This is a place for suffering, and that also you cannot stay here. Even if you make compromise, "All right, I shall suffer and stay," Kṛṣṇa says no. You suffer, and after you make adjustment, you will be kicked out.
Bhūgarbha: He said do we have to completely leave the world? We cannot stay within the world and sanctify ourselves?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Persia. Do you follow what I say? So this is one of the items, that God is the richest, or He possesses all the wealth. Similarly, He possesses all the strength, He possesses all the beauty, He possesses all knowledge, and He is the renouncer also, the most exalted renouncer. Although He possesses so many things, He is renounced. Just like this universe is the property of God, but He has given to you, all the living entities. "Now you wanted to enjoy, enjoy it to your best capacity." He doesn't interfere. "All right, you go on." And we are trying to enjoy this material world to our best capacity. Just like in Iran, you are trying to enjoy by exploiting the oil. Similarly, somebody is exploiting.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means... There are two things within our experience. Matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, now the body is useless, throw it away. Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Antavanta ime dehā. Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ. So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter.
Prabhupāda: Unless we come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of justice, morality, peace. It is not possible. They may attempt in different ways, by their mental speculative process, but actually it will never come to be true. They are all trying: the scientists, philosophers, politicians, religionists, to make some adjustment, but that is not possible. We must understand the material platform. It is threefold miserable conditions. Just like we are trying to avoid some miserable condition, very insignificant—to get out of the disturbance created by the mosquitoes and the flies. We are trying our best, but still they are disturbing. Is it not? Still they find out some loopholes and go in to the room and disturb you. So you cannot avoid. Similarly, the disturbances of nature: the severe cold, scorching heat, how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Adhyātmic, you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, bit still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice.
Prabhupāda: Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work. You cannot make any adjustments. That's not possible. (If) you have come to the spiritual platform independent of this material body, then there will be everything solved. On every surface (?). They can waste their time for making an adjustment, but that is not possible. I have given some example, that everyone is trying to become free from the material disturbances, but it is not possible. Nobody is free from material disturbance. That is not possible. So if you actually want freedom from material disturbances, you have to come to the spiritual platform and cultivate spiritual knowledge and be fixed up. Then your life is successful.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Is there a relationship, he's asking, between these disturbances and this age, that this time that we are living in...
Prabhupāda: Similarly, the disturbances of nature: the severe cold, scorching heat, how you can counteract it? Is it possible? Not possible. Adhyātmic, you may keep your body quite fit to your best knowledge, bit still there will be some trouble, sometimes coughing, sometimes mental equilibrium is lost, you don't feel nice. So these things will go on. Because we have got this material body, the material conditions must work. You cannot make any adjustments. That's not possible. (If) you have come to the spiritual platform independent of this material body, then there will be everything solved. On every surface (?). They can waste their time for making an adjustment, but that is not possible. I have given some example, that everyone is trying to become free from the material disturbances, but it is not possible. Nobody is free from material disturbance. That is not possible. So if you actually want freedom from material disturbances, you have to come to the spiritual platform and cultivate spiritual knowledge and be fixed up. Then your life is successful.
Prabhupāda: And that is described here, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti (BG 4.9). One has to understand this fundamentally, that so long I'll get this material body, I'll have to suffer. Maybe differences of degrees, but I will have to suffer. So my endeavor should be how to become independent of this material body. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Not to make a distinction of different degrees. Different degrees—one position, one man's food, another man's poison. The same degree. If you think that it is nice, another man will suffer. So suffering will continue. That is not possible (indistinct). It is the nature of material world, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Find out this verse. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. This material world is full of miseries. That they do not understand. Miserable condition they are accepting as pleasing. That is called ignorant.
Prabhupāda: The material world is full of miseries. It may be of different degrees, but it is full of miseries. You cannot avoid by adjustment. That is not possible. Therefore the materialists, they are trying. Just like in this country, Iran, now the Iranians are trying to become as opulent as the Americans. They are trying to build up similar cities and industries, but do you think they will be happy then? No. Are the Americans happy by having big, big cities? No. That is not possible. Now they are trying to imitate, but that is a false attempt. That is not the life. They can see that Americans have got big, big cities, they have big, big organizations, but are they happy actually or not? From practical example. Then why you are attempting again to imitate them? That intelligence is lacking.
Prabhupāda: So everything is described. We have to study thoroughly and apply our brain. The brain must be sharp and finer tissues. Then spiritual understanding will be there. With dull brain, physical brain, we cannot understand. That is not possible. Therefore to spiritualize the brain, the senses, requires a process. Just like to keep a vegetable in frozen condition, it requires a process. Similarly, we have to undergo a process to come to this spiritual platform, to understand the spirit soul, the supreme being, God, and the relationship and the activities. We must adopt the process. And those who are adopting the process, they are making progress. Practical. So it is not impractical. Thousands of these Europeans and Americans, they, say, a few years ago, four, five years ago-say, at most ten years ago—they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa, what is God. But now you ask them, they will explain.
Prabhupāda: The process is meant for human being. Any human being who adopts this process will understand. So ask any one of them, these European, American boys, "Are you sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness sentimentally or understanding?" Ask them. They will explain, "Yes, understanding." Not blindly. Blindly one cannot stick—that is not possible. No, there is God, there is possibility to come in touch with God, there is possibility to serve Him directly, to see Him face to face, if we adopt the process.
Ali: What I'm practicing now is that I'm battling against my nafs—the commanding self, as it's known in dervishism. And it amazes me, the way it acts, so mischievous, so dishonest, so many faces that I can only catch out very few, very few. It's always a bit late, after anger, I recognize the presence of anger.
Prabhupāda: Yes, any process you adopt, it doesn't matter, provided it helps you to the platform of loving God, that is approved. Because without coming to the platform of loving God, you cannot be satisfied. That is not possible. So you can adopt any process, it doesn't matter. If it brings you to the platform of loving God, then you'll be happy. We do not say that this process is bona fide, that process is not bona fide. We say any process you adopt, it doesn't matter, if it helps you to bring to the platform of loving God.
Ali: True, because the road is the same, the goal is the same.
Prabhupāda: Nobody. Do you think your king, Shah, is also happy? No. His sons, daughter, they are happy? No. He is also anxious how to keep his position, exalted position, he has to makes many plans, satisfy so many ministers, so many. He is also full of anxiety. And a small bird eating some grain here, he's attracted for the grain, but he's looking this way, "Oh, here is a man, here is man, he may not do some harm to me." So everyone is full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sadā samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because we have adopted this material life, asad, our mind should always be full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sadā samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahāt. Because we have accepted this temporary body, we have to be full of anxiety. This is law of nature.
Prabhupāda: That is nature's gift. You cannot check it. You have no hand on the administration of the nature. That is not possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). If you have infected some disease, you must suffer from that. This is nature's law. You cannot say, "Although I have infected the smallpox disease, I'll not suffer." No, you have to suffer. Or you have to die of that disease. You cannot check it. So they do not know how nature is going. Declaring independence. That is foolishness. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). And people are kept in ignorance. There is no school, no college, no institution to give instructions about this science. This is the position of modern civilization. People are kept in ignorance. They got the chance of human body to understand the value of life, but they are not given education by the father, by the guardian, by the king, by the guru. Nobody is giving.
Prabhupāda: It's possible. If you take advantage of the highest college, then you become..., there is possibility to becoming highly educated. You cannot become highly educated sitting down in a dark room. That is not possible. Is it possible? You have to associate, take admission in the society where people are actually highly educated. The advantage is there, the possibility is there, but you have to take it.
Mrs. Sahani: From their own religion also.
Prabhupāda: Why you bring in religion? We are talking of knowledge.
Mrs. Sahani: Knowledge is there in all the religions.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that it is only for the fortunate persons. But we must present. Only the fortunate will come forward. We cannot expect that everyone will come. That is not possible.
Jñānagamya: But you said to make everyone fortunate.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is by your preaching. That we have to do. We are doing that. That I have given the example, Nityānanda Prabhu, He faced rebellion, and by His power converted the Jagāi-Mādhāi. By chanting. They injured, Jagāi-Mādhāi injured, and Nityānanda Prabhu said, "Never mind you have injured Me, please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not advertisement, that is personal behavior.
Prabhupāda: And when they are chastised, then God is unjust. This is their position. You cannot deny the proprietorship of God. That is not possible. If you misuse it, then you'll be chastised. You'll be chastised. Even in that park, the park is owned by the government. You cannot pluck any flower without the permission. You can use it. You can go there and sit there, enjoy it, but if it is prohibited that nobody can pluck flower, if you do it, then it is criminal. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God, so you can utilize it, God's favor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, according to His instruction. Suppose there are many persons coming in the park. You cannot prohibit anyone to come into the park. As you have entered, "Yes." But you have made laws like that.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, that kind of interest is felt by the dog. It is not very astonishing thing. In that mentality you cannot bring in unity. That is not possible.
Dayānanda: But they accept that there is some good quality in humanity, they say that that is inherent in humanity, that we need to worship.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that good quality is God consciousness. So unless humanity comes to the position of God consciousness, unless he thinks that everything belongs to God, there is no question of humanity. That is "dognity," doggish mentality. Humanity means that he understands that everything belongs to God, I am servant of God. That is humanity. Otherwise, there is no question of humanity. If you think like dog, where is humanity?
Prabhupāda: This is their accident. Accidentally there is sex desire and something is produced. Still, they cannot say causeless. Because here it is said kāma-haitukam, the lusty desire was there. So therefore the lusty desire is the cause. You cannot say causeless. That is not possible. Aparaspara-sambhūtam, two, man and woman meets, aparaspara-sambhūtam. Para, apara. But kāma-haitukam. So you cannot say causeless. Then you have to search out wherefrom this lusty desire came. That is kāraṇa. Find out one cause after another, another, another. Then you'll find sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1). If you go on searching out, you have to find out this cause. Because you are saying kāma-haitukam, the lusty desire is the cause, nothing else. But if you are a philosopher, then you must find out wherefrom the lusty desire comes.
Prabhupāda: They'll suffer. Go on, continue to suffer. He'll not do it, all right, go on, suffer. Next life if he becomes dog, the ear is there, but he'll not be able to hear what Kṛṣṇa says: finished. That chance is finished. This is going on. The dog has ear, big ear, bigger than me. But he cannot hear what is Kṛṣṇa saying. That is not possible. But this life I've got this ear, I can hear. If I don't take chance, then how much foolish I am. Next life, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), I'll get next life, next birth. Now it is not necessarily that I'll get the next life also same ear. No. The ear may be different. The eyes may be different. The eyes are there, ears are there, nose is, but it is different. So long we have got these eyes, these ears, this nose, utilize it properly. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Janame janame sabe pitā mātā pāya, kṛṣṇa guru nāhi mile bhaja...(?) Every birth you'll get a father, mother. Because without father, mother, there is no question of birth. But not in every birth you'll get Kṛṣṇa and guru. That is in this birth. Birth you can have.
Prabhupāda: No, therefore he has to accept spiritual master to guide him. Just like simply by reading books you do not become educated. You go to school and read before the teacher. Then you'll understand. You cannot become a medical man by purchasing books from the market and reading at home. You must go to the medical college. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Not only reading, but you go to the person who is actually realized. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). Everything is there. You cannot understand individually. That is not possible. If you are extraordinarily intelligent, you can do that. That is exception. But ordinarily it is not possible. Therefore the spiritual master is there. He'll guide you. What is that?
Prabhupāda: Yes, in America we have got forty branches. Our philosophy is simple. We educate people to understand that there is God. This is a godless civilization. So we say that there is God. Try to understand, and love Him, that's all. This is our philosophy. Then you'll be happy. And so long you do not love God, you simply love dog, you'll never be happy. That is our philosophy. You have diverted your loving spirit to the dog. You change it. Instead of loving dog, you love God. Then dog will be loved and everyone will be loved. If you simply love dog, then your love will be simply in dog. But if you love God, then you'll love God and dog also. Just like you are eating. So the eatable is going to the stomach. If you distribute this eatable to the eyes, to the ears, to the nose—there are nine holes—it will be uselessly spoiled. And if you give this foodstuff to the stomach, the energy will be immediately distributed to the ears, to the eyes, to the nose, to the... Similarly, if you have got a propensity to love, you love God, your love will be distributed everywhere. And if you fix your love to the dog, then it is uselessly spoiled. That is going on. They have manufactured love for country, for this, that, so many things. But without love of God. Therefore the disturbance is going on. However big nationalist you may be, you cannot make happy anyone. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Brains, complete whole is pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. That is complete. Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation). That is beginning of Īśopaniṣad. It is already explained, the complete. What is that complete? Complete means complete brain. That is complete. Complete means complete brain. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Because He has complete brain. Anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ, He's complete aware of everything. Therefore there is complete arrangement. This is the definition of complete. Complete in awareness. Therefore there is complete arrangement. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. There is the pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. Complete arrangement comes from the complete, pūrṇāt. There is water. This water has come from a water stock. The arrangement is complete. Wherefrom the water has come? It has come from another water stock. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate. So what you call eternal, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation). It is so complete that if you take out the whole complete, again it is complete. The supply is again complete. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu was requested by one devotee that, "My Lord, You have come, You take all the sinful living beings by Your mercy. And if you think that is not possible, then give all their sinful reactions unto me, I shall suffer. You take them."
Prabhupāda: (break) By practice. We are training them to practice how to become devotees. By superficial seeing the activities of Kṛṣṇa, this is not... One has to practice. Just like we are going to start gurukula. Gurukula means practice. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dāntaḥ (SB 7.12.1). How to become self-controlled, dānta. That is the... So our mission is to awaken the original consciousness, and that can be done by practice. Without practice, it is not possible. It is not by seeing some picture one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is not possible.
Indian man (3): But sir, do we not convey to a larger people...
Prabhupāda: That is being done through books.
Indian man (3): But sir, books are for such people who can read, who can understand.
Gargamuni: It doesn't matter.
Jayapatākā: What do you mean, it doesn't matter? What big bank?
Prabhupāda: Then who is going to deposit five lakhs of rupees with them? That is not possible.
Jayapatākā: Yes, that's all right, but as far as the bank goes...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. We can go on without the business. We cannot deposit.
Jayapatākā: Any banker goes there, they'll want a deposit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why should we deposit five lakhs of rupees? The money value is decreasing daily.
Prabhupāda: So if you worship the demigods, Indra, Candra, Varuṇa-yānti deva-vratā devān—then you can go to the higher planetary system. They are trying to go to the moon planet. In that way it is not possible. You have to be qualified to go there. Not by machine, by force you can go there. That is not possible. Yānti deva-vratā devān. So... And also you can go, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. You can go to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we have to make choice in this human form of life. Actually, the aim should be to go back home, back to Godhead. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). Ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16). Otherwise, within this material world, even if you go to the higher planetary system, then punar āvartinaḥ, you have to come back again. Now the human form of life should be properly utilized. If we think that this life is everything, that is wrong conception of life.
Prabhupāda: So He's Kṛṣṇa Himself. He's neither rascal nor fool. But He represented the rascal and fools that who will read Vedānta. Everyone is after this Veda. No student will come to study Vedānta. That is not possible in this age. You see? Maybe somebody interested, but generally they'll not come. Even if one is born in the brāhmaṇa family, he is no more interested.
Commissioner: May I submit, Swamiji, therefore what we did was, these three hundred people, if they chant, three hundred rupees for a dāna-paṭha,(?) and two hundred rupees for him and a hundred rupees a...
Prabhupāda: No, no, brāhmaṇa, why he will take money?
Commissioner: It is, no, we are giving it as dakṣiṇā.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I said if you keep them dogs, what is the use of United Nations? You cannot make the dogs united. That is not possible.
Commissioner: Yes. Therefore recently in Tirupati we have been thinking of starting a training institute along with Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.
Prabhupāda: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have no idea.
Commissioner: They have no idea. Ramakrishna Mission we asked.
Prabhupāda: They have no idea.
Commissioner: They don't have people. They said, "We don't have men even for our own missions."
Prabhupāda: Free means desire should be purified. That means desires should be to render service to the Lord. That is real purification. The example is given, just like gold. There are impurities. That impurities, you cannot cleanse it simply by washing. You have to put into the fire. When it is melted then automatically all the dirty things are gone. His natural position is part and parcel of God, to render service to God. So unless he takes up that thing, there is no question of desirelessness. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is demanding, "Surrender." And as soon as he surrenders, then material desires become vanquished. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Otherwise, the... He cannot rectify one desire by another desire. That is not possible. Then it will produce another desire.
Bhavānanda: To purify that desire we also have to be put into the fire?
Prabhupāda: So this is the real platform of United Nation. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). At that time samaḥ sarveṣu. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. They have no demand. These boys they are working so hard. They never ask a single paisa from me. It is not possible for me to pay these foreigners as salaried man. That is not possible. They get minimum four thousand rupees minimum. Minimum salary America is $400 dollars. That means four thousand rupees. So and they are getting $800, $1200, $2000. And poverty is unknown in America. They do not know what is poverty. I see here the milk they are standing in block. You can get as much milk as you want anywhere you go, any shop you go you take immediately. Anything. Building materials. You simply order to the suppliers, immediately everything is there.
Pradyumna: "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. (Hindi) What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna-yogis, and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord are called bhakti-yogis. Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed."
Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is not possible for the animal. Therefore to remain happy within yourself, that is a prerogative of the human being. But we are not trying for that purpose. We are trying to be happy by eating, by sleeping, by sex or by defense. This is our platform of happiness. A dog cannot go to the restaurant, but a human being, if he goes to a restaurant and he can eat palatable dishes, he thinks he's happy. But what is that eating? In your standard you feel happiness, whereas on the street you'll find a pig, he's happy by eating stool. One man's food another man's poison. So eating happiness is there but the standard different. Therefore this eating is common affair, and happiness derived from eating is as good by the dog as by the pig and human being.
Prabhupāda: So this must be stopped immediately. We cannot pay more than five thousand. You stop. We cannot pay. (Hindi) My Guru Mahārāja used to say, (Bengali) "Joint mess." This is not possible. That we have to maintain a big bundle of burden. What is this?
Akṣayānanda: But still, we have to welcome anyone who comes.
Prabhupāda: Twenty-five thousand, thirty-thousand per month? What is this? Where is that temple in Vṛndāvana who is spending twenty-five thousand, thirty thousand? Can you say any temple?
Indian man: Not more than five thousand.
Prabhupāda: That's it. So we cannot pay more than five thousand.
Prabhupāda: They can. They'll not accept the process. They can. Everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs? Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs. Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat-eating and... But you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī..." They'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method, and naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. Now you convert your, you divert your attention to Kṛṣṇa. They'll make propaganda. "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacārī. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment? It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sari, nice,—one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally, her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible. And so long one is in the bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this, I am that," and all of them go to the United Nation assembly... So what is the difference when a dog thinks that "I am dog, I am this dog." And an American or Indian thinks "I am a..." Where is the difference? So as American, as Indian, as German, as Chinese, if they go there, they remain animal, and how there can be peace? That is not possible. And the peace formula is given by Kṛṣṇa. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 5.29). When one understands Kṛṣṇa is suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. That is śāntim. So if you keep them as Americans, or Indians, or this or that, how there can be peace?
Prabhupāda: Yes, let me finish, that... We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and it is being accepted all over the world. People are very much, those who are scholars, they say that even Rādhākrishnan and Aurobindo, they presented Bhagavad-gītā making some compromise with Western ideas. But here is presentation of Bhagavad-gītā in India's original traditional way. So they welcome it. And this is our, I mean to say, object also, that we cannot allow Bhagavad-gītā to be understood by anyone's imagination. No. That is not possible. And that is not allowed in the Bhagavad-gītā by the author. Kṛṣṇa says in the Fourth Chapter that as soon as the paramparā system of understanding is lost, then the whole thing is lost. In the Fourth Chapter it is said. Find out Fourth Chapter.
Prabhupāda: So he denied that "I cannot do that. I can help in your business, but I cannot accept your way of life. That is not possible." Then the father saw, "Then he is lost, useless. If he's not adopting our life..." So there, that one father, now the all fathers have combined that "Our children are now lost. They do not come home, what to speak of adopting again our way of life." They cannot accept the way of life, meat-eating and.... That is not possible. That they're finding dangerous. And other movement they join and they come back. They remain what they are. Simply they say that "I belong to this grouping." But our is different. Not only he belongs to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement but a different type of life. (reads something) Mm. Give it. They have taken (indistinct). There are many, many groups like that.
Akśayananda: Yes, that's the trouble. So we have a system in some towns. We find one member who is very much liking us, and we send all the magazines to him, and he goes, sends his, given by hand, to all the other members in that city.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Akśayananda: We are doing that in some cities but we don't have in all cities such a system. That system works.
Prabhupāda: How it is possible? Some are living ten miles from him. It is not possible. No, that is happening in India, not in other countries. In your country the peons are very responsible.
Akśayananda: Yes, the post office is also very good.
Prabhupāda: That is politics.
Surabhi: Yes, but...
Prabhupāda: He was a politician. That you cannot blame. Politics require all these things. A politician cannot be a saintly person. That is not possible. For politics he has to do so many things. That is necessary. Just like Arjuna wanted to be a nonviolent. Immediately it was condemned by Kṛṣṇa, "What is this nonsense? You are a military man. Nonviolent." And similarly, politicians, they require all this. Businessman must deal in black market. It is inevitable. Otherwise he cannot improve. Because the world is bad, you, if you become honest, then you cannot make pros..., cannot become prosperous. Sate sārtham samācaret.(?) Brāhmaṇa's dealing must be very straight and honest.
Prabhupāda: Now, here is intelligence. This boy has got intelligence; therefore he can see, behind this flower there is God. He immediately answered. That is intelligence. He is not seeing God, but he's seeing God. God is not present face to face but it doesn't matter. Just like the prime minister of our country, she may not be present here but that does not mean that she is not there. She is there. So these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" How can you see Him? By intelligence. Just like this fan is running. The powerhouse is not here but intelligent man will understand that there is electric powerhouse from where the electricity energy is supplied and therefore the fan is running. By the running of the fan, one can understand that there is a big powerhouse and there is an electric engineer there who is conducting the business. That is sufficient, to see the running of the fan. That is intelligence. And if somebody says, "No, no, the fan is running automatically," that is not possible.
Prabhupāda: The material knowledge will not help you, but you cannot imagine. You have to accept Vedic knowledge. What is stated in the Vedas, that you have to accept. That's all. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore to understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's activities you have to learn from Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā. You cannot manufacture your knowledge. That is not... Because you are defective—your senses are imperfect—so whatever knowledge you get through your senses, that is all imperfect. You cannot get perfect knowledge by your imperfect senses. That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to learn that transcendental science you have to approach a guru who knows it.
Prabhupāda: Āsakti. Then they will be attached here. Spiritually if you enlighten them, then they'll be attached. They'll voluntarily say they are accepting here. The chanting, chanting, then... This is the beginning, that "You chant and take prasādam." Then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Gradually the heart will be cleansed, and gradually they will be elevated to the platform of āsakti. Then they will not want money, they will not want... Then they will live here, work, just you are doing. That stage, that requires little advancement. Therefore I say this kīrtana program must be continued. Then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. As you make the heart cleansed, they become more and more advanced. And then this stage of āsakti, that "This is... We shall live here." Just like we have given up our hearth and home and wife and children. We have given up that attachment. This attachment, practical... That is... You cannot expect immediately. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Unlimited dimension. Three dimension for you because You cannot see Him. Otherwise He is unlimited. That's it. But you cannot see unlimited. That is His mercy, that He presents Himself before you in three dimension because you have no eyes to see Him in His unlimited dimension. That is not possible. So it is His mercy. But He is not limited with three dimensions.
Guest (4): No, no, I'm not saying He is limited. As a man sees.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he is limited...
Guest (Indian man): Could it be that there may be different interpretations?
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. That is not the process. You cannot interpret Bhagavad-gītā. If you want to preach Bhagavad-gītā, you must preach what Kṛṣṇa has said. If you have got a different philosophy, you can say differently. You don't cheat people that you take Bhagavad-gītā and interpret in your own way and cheat others and be cheated yourself. You cannot do that.
Guest: Well, for example, Tilak Maharaj...
Prabhupāda: Yes, there is no need of speculation. Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself. You take the advantage of Kṛṣṇa's explanation. You understand Kṛṣṇa. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. I am explaining my position. You have to understand as I am explaining. You cannot explain me. That is not possible. There are so many secrets, I do not dis..., if I do not disclose, how you can explain it?
Indian man: Very simple, the way you related mother's. My mind could immediately accept it. But at the point of father's it stopped.
Prabhupāda: Because you are thinking to become father in a particular way. You do not accept...
Indian man: Mother also in particular way...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And, above all, his senses are imperfect. Therefore, from such persons with deficiency, how you can get real knowledge? That is not possible. We have to approach a person who has no deficiency. Then we shall get real knowledge. So Kṛṣṇa and His representative are persons without any deficiencies. So we have to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa or one who represents Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we'll be cheated, because he has got deficiencies.
Guest (1): But that you have said, that one of his colleague or assistant told to Gandhi that "There is danger, and you shouldn't go to the meeting," and in spite of that...
Prabhupāda: No, in India will purchase English magazine, he knows English.
Guest (1): Yes he knows, but the popularity will be much more in the Hindi and Gujarati and Marathi speaking people, Bengali speaking.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is for you, Indians. But you have no time. You are busy with your daughter's marriage, and you simply advise.
Guest (1): I am busy?
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Every Indian is busy with his own affair, he'll come and advise. That's all. Advise gratis. But he will not do himself.
Guest (1): No, but...
Prabhupāda: You'll advise, but you'll never do it. That is going on. (break) ...elephants dance, and we see. This is Indian policy. These white elephants, they'll come and dance, and you'll see. And you are busy with your daughter's marriage. That's all. (break) ...means vairāgya-vidyā. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga (CC Madhya 6.254). Nobody can become a bhakta unless he has disgusted with material life. "I shall do this, I shall do that." And he'll never do bhakti-yoga. That's all. This is not possible. (break) Before leaving my family life I wanted to get my all sons and daughters married, but some of them disagreed, some of them... My wife disagreed. Let them go to hell, I don't care. Time is up. Never mind you are married or not married. Then see your own business. (break) I or you, then who will take care of the marriage of your daughter? Suppose you die immediately? Then who will take care?
Prabhupāda: That's not the fact. Fact is I am living entity. Tathā dehān..., Kṛṣṇa also says tathā dehāntara. Apartment antara. The spirit soul is the same. There is no change. That is spirit always. But according to his karma, he is going from this apartment, or this body, tathā dehān... That is the main point with the modern science and our Vedic knowledge. That is the main difference. They have no idea of the existence of the soul, and therefore say, "We are trying to make, we are trying to make." This rascaldom is going on. You cannot make soul. That is not possible. You cannot do anything. You cannot make even the body, what to speak of the soul. This is...
Dr. Patel: Modern scientists don't say that we can make the soul. Soul is permanent in every man.
Prabhupāda: Māyāpura, yes. So we are giving, as far as possible, comfortable life. Because modern man, he cannot go to the forest and live underneath a tree. That is not possible. Therefore by begging, begging, spending blood, we are getting money all over the world and spend it like this. For me, I can live anywhere. And I can collect one or two ruṭi anywhere. It is not for me. It is for you. I have invited. Come here, stay and preach this cult, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. That I want. People are being cheated all over the world shamelessly.
Indian lady: What about this Guru Grantha Saheb.(?) The philosophy which Guru Grantha Saheb has, what is that about?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But this way, if we have courses Monday to Sunday, we can have one big hall, just keep one hall for yoga class.
Prabhupāda: I mean you cannot give two kinds of classes in one room. That is not possible. That is nonsense. Even if you have got one student, he must be in that particular class. You cannot hold all the classes in one room, no, you have to... No, for seven days you have to give seven rooms, even there is one student.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if it is the same class... It's not going to be a different class.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Different verses we shall explain. It is different class.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They want to be cheated but we cannot cheat. For getting some customer you have to flatter them—that is not possible. And while explaining the ślokas, you have to stress on this point, that this is bona fide; all others are cheating. That requires on your preaching power.
Hari-śauri: Actually I was reading through your purports in this chapter the other day, and everything, every aspect, is completely explained in the purports. If one carefully reads this chapter then there's no problem. You just preach whatever is there.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: What we could do is... I mean you may not like this... Publish a small booklet just based on the Sixth Chapter.
| Page Title: | That is not possible (Conversations 1976) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 02 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=173, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 173 |