Prabhupāda: Ah, jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). There is no God, it has come automatically by interaction. But even it is so, how the interaction is taking place? That is intelligence. Interaction, just like acid and alkali. Just like oil and caustic soda. These are two chemicals and mixing them, interaction, the result is soap. Accepting this principle, but there must be a mixer, a person who is mixing. Otherwise, how the soap and oil is being mixed? The soap is there and the oil is there and the caustic soda is also there, that is material ingredient. But they are not coming together automatically. That is not possible. Where is the evidence? There are so many soap factories, and let them keep oil and caustic soda and there is no question of labor, let them become soap. Where is that evidence?
That is not possible (Conversations 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: It is not automatically. Here the other typewriter it is stroken and there is electric arrangement and it is striking. So you have to understand like... That is sura. And asura, they will say, "No, there is no God. It is taking automatically, it is going on," This is foolishness. The asura means foolish, first-class foolish, that's all. Why it has become so? That is explained here. That they do not know how to behave, nāpi cācāraḥ. Na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate, neither they know what is the actual truth. They are defective themself and they are explaining in the defective way that so many rascal chemists they say that the chemical evolution is the cause of life. What is this nonsense? Chemical evolution, you get the chemicals and make a experiment and produce life. Then your proposal is all right that by chemical evolution there is life. No, that is not possible. You have got all the chemicals. Why don't you revive a dead man by injecting chemicals again into life, where is your power? So why do you talk foolishly like that? This should be challenged that "You are foolish number one." Actually it so happened in California. One big chemist he came there to lecture the chemical evolution, by mixing of chemical life has come into existence.
Prabhupāda: How they can? He is not pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. How he can do? Kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nāhe nāma pracāra: "Without being empowered by Kṛṣṇa nobody can turn a person to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa." It is not... Artificially, you cannot make. He may make show of gold manufacturing, but he cannot make a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible.
Jayatīrtha: So the purpose of having the Society is to show the devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according to your instruction.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that a fool's paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC. They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise. At least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes, then he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then it is fool's paradise. So somehow or other, we have got now a position. People likes us. So we should not spoil by personal sense gratification.
Rūpānuga: The scientists are trying to be the hero. Kṛṣṇa is the hero. He has done everything first, and the scientist wants to be the hero.
Prabhupāda: So you have to present like this, that "What is the credit? Suppose by chemical composition you can manufacture one ant. That is not possible. Be assured you will never be able. That we are assured. But even if you are able, then what is your credit? The credit is the man has learned how to bark like a dog. That's all, this much credit."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, if they are able to make life, then they are going to say that there's no God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but first of all you produce. Then say. Why you are anticipating that you will be able to...?
Prabhupāda: That's all. Therefore God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The human society should be divided into four classes of men: the most intelligent class, brāhmaṇa; the next intelligent class, kṣatriya; then next intelligent class, vaiśyas; and the fourth-class men, who cannot become brāhmaṇa, neither kṣatriya, nor vaiśya, they are called śūdra. Śūdra is meant for giving service to the others. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). So in this age, 99% people are engaged as śūdra, working for others. No independence. Otherwise brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they are independent. They are nobody's servant. But at the present moment, education means how to become expert servant. That means śūdra. So we cannot expect any good things from śūdra. That is not possible. Formerly there was monarchy, and the kings were called rājarṣis, saintly king. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). These instruction are meant for the rājarṣis, not for the śūdras.
Prabhupāda: Maybe, even if you manipulate, then what you have done? You cannot create the soul, that is not possible. If you manipulate life then give the dead body again energy to rise up. Then we shall (admit) that you can manipulate. Otherwise it is false. If you are so expert in manipulation, then give the dead body life again. That is my request. If depend on others and you manipulating, this false knowledge will not help.
Guest (1): Swamiji, what actually I was coming to, most humbly, cannot spread to the (indistinct) science go together. It's not...
Prabhupāda: No, if science is really science, that is helpful. If science is based on wrong theory, then what is the use of that. Everything is wrong. So many mathematical calculation, if there is any item wrong, then whole thing is wrong.
Guest (1): So we are all moving in the darkness, ignorance, to begin with.
Prabhupāda: This nonsense thing has created all problems. Therefore Vedic civilization is—first teaching is brahmacārī—how to learn to avoid sex life. If one can continue without sex life he is praised, naiṣṭhika-brahmacārī. If one cannot, all right you become a perfect gṛhastha. So many rules and regulations. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāma, that is all right, but if you use sex life for sense gratification and becomes implicated in so many sinful activities, then how he'll be happy? A sinful man cannot become happy, that is not possible. All our sinful activities, the so-called scientists are helping, "Yes, you can do this." And the church is sanctioning. This is going on. The Christian religion says, "Thou shalt not kill," and they are now teaching, "yes, you can kill the child. You have killed cows and so many things, that is all right. Again you kill your child."
Prabhupāda: And this is not civilization, to get the necessities of life, sense gratification, and work like hog and dog. That is condemned. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭan kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This human life is not meant for working so hard for sense gratification which are done by the dogs and hogs. Human life is meant: tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). Human life is for tapasya. Why tapasya? Yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed: their existence will be purified. Then you will get unlimited pleasure. Yato brahma-saukhyam anantam. We are seeking after unlimited pleasure. So that is not possible in this material life. And we are thinking, "By working very hard, like hogs and dogs, we will get happiness." This is... The dogs and hogs, they work day and night for searching out where is stool, and as soon as he gets stool, he becomes very strong and stout. Then sex. Never mind, the mother, sister, daughter. This is hog life. Therefore this particular animal has been... Kaṣṭan kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1).
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (1): Is going to take over the world eventually some time during the Kali-yuga, in this Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible, because only the fortunate persons will take.
Devotee (1): I mean, but will the power of the kṣatriyas will be in the hands of the Kṛṣṇa conscious persons sometime during this Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Provided you become very expert to preach. Unless you preach, how they will take? (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Towards the end of the Kali-yuga isn't there a description in the Bhāgavatam that one will not be able to see the sun or the moon?
Prabhupāda: During the end of Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation.
Prabhupāda: Society, friendship, love—all sacrificed: "We shall go to Kṛṣṇa." This is kṛṣṇa-bhakti. That is the highest perfection of life, to sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa. "Only Kṛṣṇa should be satisfied." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that is not very easy job. But one can do if he likes, everything for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says also, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Gopīs did not care for social, for religious or family and nothing. Sarva-dharmān parityajya. They went: "Kṛṣṇa now is calling. Let us go." This is the typical example of sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ. So, of course, it is not possible to become on the standard of gopīs. That is not possible. But at least we shall try to follow these devotees. Arjuna is there, gopīs are there, Uddhavas are there—many devotees. Lord Brahmā is there. Lord Śiva is there. Kapiladeva is there. The four Kumāras are there. Bhīṣmadeva is there. Prahlāda Mahārāja is there. Janaka Mahārāja is there. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is there. So mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). If we simply follow these big, big devotees, then our life is successful.
Prabhupāda: No, they are also God's creature, but covered by the body. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Those who are spiritually advanced, they see equally because they know that within the body the spirit soul is there. The spirit soul is part and parcel of God. He is encaged somehow or other in a particular type of body. So a devotee of God is very kind to everyone. Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na ka..., samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). Samaḥ sarveṣu..., mad-bhakti labhate param. That is the stage of making advance in devotional life—equality. That equality is possible when we are on the platform of spiritual understanding. Otherwise not possible. The United Nation will never be able to unite the nation. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Senses are imperfect. Just like we are very proud of our eyes to see, but you cannot see what is beyond the wall. Therefore it is conditioned. You cannot see without light. That, how you can be sure that your eyes are perfectly seeing? That is not possible, because the eyes can see under certain condition. So if it is conditioned, then it is not perfect. But the conditioned sight can be purified. Just like one is suffering from cataract. By surgical operation the cataract can be removed and he can see. Similarly, our senses are imperfect. If we purify the senses, then it will be possible to see God twenty-four hours. That purification process is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the right conclusion, that God is also Supreme Being and we are also being, so as being, we are one, but as Supreme, He is different. That is the right conclusion. You are not Supreme Being. You are being controlled by the Supreme Being. You cannot say that you are independent. Therefore you are not Supreme. You are dependent on Him. Eko hi yasya vidadhāti kāmān, bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He maintains. Just like this coconut. God has given us this coconut fruit to enjoy or to live upon it. But I cannot create this coconut. It is not possible. Therefore, for my maintenance He has sent this coconut. So He is maintainer; I am maintained, although He is being; I am also being. He is maintainer being; I am maintained being. This is the right conclusion. No scientist... He can talk so many things about this coconut, but unfortunately he cannot manufacture this coconut. That is not possible. He can manufacture something subordinate-chairs, table—but not this coconut. Not possible.
Prabhupāda: Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Then this anartha. Anartha means unwanted things. Just like illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, these are unwanted things. It is not necessary. People have learned them by bad association. When one has got his wife, why he should indulge in illicit sex? This is sinful. When we have got so many things to eat, why shall I go to kill an animal, eat it? So these are anartha. Anartha means "without any meaning." So these things become vanquished. If one is actually engaged in devotional service, the first symptom will be that he is not interested in things which are unwanted, artificial. These are the stages. Then niṣṭhā. Niṣṭhā means firm conviction. Then ruciḥ, taste. Then āsaktiḥ, attachment. Then bhāva, and then prema. So as a student is serious, he gets promotion to next higher class, higher class, higher class, higher class, gradually to the M.A. class. That is natural. But if in the beginning he is not serious, no enthusiasm, then what is the reason that he will be promoted to the higher section? That is not possible.
Atreya Ṛṣi: What they don't have really, is the practice of devotional service. They don't have...
Prabhupāda: That is finished, I think. Their propaganda is already finished. Nobody cares for them. How they are...? You can cheat all people for some time, and some people for all time, (laughter) but not all people for all time. That is not possible. This is their policy. Some fruits are there?
Devotee: Yes, Prabhupāda. Some juice also.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Shall we make some fresh juice?
Prabhupāda: No, no. That's all right. (end)
Prabhupāda: That is speculation. If you want to study me, so you can do so either by approaching me or through one of my confidential servant. How one can understand me from outside by speculating? Why do they come to see me? Let them remain far away and speculate. But that is not possible in ordinary common sense also. So how they speculate about God? If you cannot understand even a common man, maybe very big in the society, you cannot understand a common man by hearsay, by speculation...
Prajāpati: Practically all the theologians are aligned with one denomination or another, and they're like company men to the big churches, and they're afraid of admitting they do not know about God because they're afraid somebody will leave their camp and come to ours. We say we know about God.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: But they are seeing us... They don't accept that, though. If somebody was calling themselves Christians...
Prabhupāda: That... It is not possible that everyone will accept you. That is not possible.
Pañcadraviḍa: They... The Christians on the street, they don't accept because they say, "You have not accepted Christ." I say, "I am following all Christ's teachings." They say, "Well, you haven't been baptized. If you're following all the principles, why not be baptized?"
Ravīndra-svarūpa: I was baptized.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Satsvarūpa: If a large section of the people don't want spiritual life, that's their...
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot force. That is not possible, because he has got independence. You cannot force. You can simply give him knowledge. Therefore to distribute knowledge is the best welfare activities, not this material so-called happiness, daridra-nārāyaṇa-seva and this... They have got that. That will not make them happy. If you give them knowledge, then they will be really benefited. Otherwise not.
Brahmānanda: How do we give knowledge to the common masses of people?
Prabhupāda: If you alone live in this field eternally, that is not bliss. That is punishment. You see? So that is nature. We want ānanda, blissfulness. Therefore those who are... Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). After severe austerities they rise up to the Brahmān effulgence, but on account of his original nature of ānanda, he cannot remain there. He again falls down. "Oh, it was better, family life. What is this nonsense? Eternally sit up in this field? What is this? Let me go to the town and work there." You see? That is your nature. Therefore these impersonalists who want to merge, they can merge, but there they cannot remain. They will again come. These so-called sannyāsīs, they give up everything—brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā—Vivekananda or this Karpatri. Again they come to these material activities. Somebody takes social work, somebody takes political work. But if it is mithyā, if it is false, why...? (break) But they have... (break) Again come, open hospital, do political work. They cannot stick up. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Everything means whatever his guru knows, he should know, that much. Not like God, everything. Within his limit, that's all. If he tries to understand whatever his guru has said, that much is "everything." Otherwise, "everything" does not mean that we know everything, like God, like Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. If he regularly chants and follow the regulative principles, follows the orders of guru, then he knows everything. That's all. Not very much... Knows everything, then what is the use of reading books when he knows everything? (break) ...everything—except Kṛṣṇa. Aham... Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo (BG 15.15). He knows past, present, future, everything. You cannot expect anyone to know like Kṛṣṇa, everything.
Prabhupāda: What is this?" Because that is the price only to purchase Kṛṣṇa. To mad after Him. Where is Kṛṣṇa? He rādhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ. Where You are? Where You are? Śrī-govardhana pādapa-tale kālindī-vane kutaḥ. Are You under the valley of Govardhana Hill or on the bank of the Yamunā? Where you are? Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato vraja-pure. That was their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simply wondering where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa, where is Kṛṣṇa. Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato pure khedair mahā-vihvalau. Madlike, vihvalau. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-go... This is, this price one takes, then you can get Kṛṣṇa, you can understand Kṛṣṇa. It is not so cheap, that anyone can comment on Kṛṣṇa, whimsically, and he becomes a devotee. That is not possible. That is going on. I can interpret in my own way. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. (indistinct) Somebody is taking Kṛṣṇa is black, somebody is taking Kṛṣṇa as something else. Who says Kṛṣṇa is black? Who told me?
Prabhupāda: No, varṇāśrama. Vānaprastha, just like we have got this building. Now, if somebody retires and engages himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are welcome. They can take prasādam and stay here. It is not possible at the present moment that gentleman will live in the forest. That is not possible. Then here is a place, Vṛndāvana, holy place. We have constructed this building, and people should take vānaprastha, or retirement, and may come here and live peacefully and cultivate spiritual knowledge.
Brahmānanda: I think the governor was asking about the varṇāśrama college.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Varnāśrama college, that training factual brāhmaṇa. And the government should be, as I explained to you, that if one is proclaiming himself as a brāhmaṇa, he must act as a brāhmaṇa. If one is proclaiming as a kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Otherwise, there will be no restriction, and a śūdra will claim to be brāhmaṇa. That will create a disturbing situation. In Pṛthu Mahārāja's time it was strictly prohibited that... That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Adhi-yajña. When we divide the word, then the first noun form is used. Sanskrit grammar is very difficult. It requires twelve years to learn simply Sanskrit grammar. So, that is not possible. So whatever is there, you understand that. Sanskrit grammar is very, very difficult. At least twelve years it requires. And if you understand Sanskrit grammar, then you can read all the Vedic literature without any translation. Simply by studying. Therefore the Sanskrit scholars are first of all taught grammar. And when one is expert in reading grammar properly, then all Vedic literature becomes very simplified.
Amogha: The Supersoul, does He... I remember in one place it describes that the Lord is so small that He can enter even into the heart of the individual soul, and...
Prabhupāda: Even into the atom. So where is the difficulty?
Prabhupāda: Just like one's father is playing on the stage, but because he is playing in a different role, or dressing in a different role, even the son cannot understand. So what is the difficulty? Hmm? Difficulty is mind; otherwise there is no difficulty. I am foolish, therefore... Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is visible to everyone. We have got two kinds of experience, within and without. He is present within and without, but still we cannot see Kṛṣṇa. That is my foolishness, that is my imperfection. We have to become perfect, then we will see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That is morning sādhana, spiritual consciousness, advancement. The more we advance in spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa we'll realize more and more. Svayam eva sphuraty adhaḥ: you cannot see Kṛṣṇa, but as soon as you become purified, He reveals Himself. It is not due to you that you can see. When Kṛṣṇa allows Himself to be seen by you, then you can see. So you have to become qualified to see Him; otherwise He is everywhere present, we can't see Him. And without being qualified, if you want to see Him, that is not possible. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). Find out this verse.
Prabhupāda: No. Yes, when there is politics, that is necessary. I am speaking of politics, not of love. You cannot create love by violence. That is another thing. But if you want kingdom, there must be violence. By violence you cannot force a woman, agree to love you. That is not possible. Then there must be love. The business must be done accordingly. But when there is politics, there must be violence. Otherwise you cannot come out victorious. (break) ...in a friendly way. "Might is right." So Gandhi did this foolishness and he died of violence. (laughs) He praised the philosophy of nonviolence, but he was himself killed by violence. That was his foolishness.
Paramahaṁsa: But we have seen Lord Buddha, he conquered all of India with ahiṁsā, nonviolence, Lord Buddha.
Prabhupāda: Ātmā is not coming into being, it is already there. But at the present moment it is accepting different types of bodies. Just like your this dress is available in the market. And you are also there, so you purchase the dress and put on. Similarly, the different types of bodies are already there. You according to your desire accept one type of body, and you appear in that body. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and you have to accept one of them. According to desire. According to your work. You are working. Everyone is working. Now, according to the work and association, he is creating his body. Just like if you infect some type of disease, then you'll have to accept that disease. So we are working ways—we are individuals—and according to that work we are creating our next body. If you are working in a godly way, then you'll get your body next as god, and if you are working in a dogly way, then you'll get your body as dog. So, by nature's way, evolution, we come through 800 millions of forms of life, then nature gives us a chance to accept this human form of body. In this body, our consciousness being advanced, if we try we can understand what is the problem of life, why we have accepted birth, death, old age and disease, how to get out of these, how to revive our original nature of body and again become eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. This is the chance of the human body. Therefore you are a philosopher because you are in the human body, but a dog cannot be a philosopher. He may be a very big dog, can bark very loudly, he has got very good strength, can create big disturbance, but he cannot understand philosophy. That is not possible. But a human being can understand. Therefore he should be given chance to understand the philosophy of life. And that is Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Yes, He is big in everything, but you should not imitate, because you are not as big as Kṛṣṇa. Tejīyasāṁ na doṣāya (SB 10.33.29). He is very powerful. Before His power, everything becomes vāṇīshed. He remains powerful. But you cannot do that. "Kṛṣṇa is biggest cheater; therefore I shall become a cheater." That is not good policy. Then you will be finished. Just like the example is given that Lord Śiva drank the ocean of poison, and if you drink a drop, you will die. You cannot imitate the most powerful. That is not possible.
Jayadharma: You told Madhudviṣa Swami once in Sydney a few years ago that actually you're the biggest cheater because you're stealing away all our māyā.
Prabhupāda: What is that? I am...
Prabhupāda: So when it touches the ground, it may become impure. It doesn't water (matter). But the water is pure. Water is coming. You cannot take water from the sea and moisten the ground with... That is not possible. But if pure water comes down from the rain, it is utilized.
Justin Murphy: But a lot of the water that is in our dams and the water that we use for irrigation south of here, which is the basis for the dairy produce of Perth, is becoming slowly, because of its contact with the ground and its travel through the soil and its seepage out into streams and into underground areas, that water is slowly becoming in many respects almost as salty as the sea.
Prabhupāda: But first of all, you want water. If the water is reserved on the top of the hill, then it gradually comes down. That is nature's, God's, arrangement: Let river fall down, and you can use that water. That is the nature's arrangement. Just like you keep your water on the tank, and by pipe you get down. But there is nature's arrangement.
Prabhupāda: No, enjoyment in this way of life more sense enjoyment, you will never be able to enjoy or happiness. That is not possible. That is the nature's way. (Aside:) You can close the door. If you simply want to enjoy, you can enjoy. But you will create more miseries. So this is one way of life, that you enjoy your senses and create more miseries. This is one way of life. And if you want to decrease your miseries, then there is another life, which is called simple life. Simple life means you produce your food and you produce your cloth so you dress yourself nicely, you eat, yourself, nicely, keep yourself fit and glorify the Lord. This is one way of life. And the other way of life, that "We don't care for the Lord. Let us enjoy the senses to the topmost capacity and be happy..." So this way of life will never make you happy. You will simply go on struggling. This is one way of life. Another way of life, that the human life is meant for God realization...
Prabhupāda: ...if there is government laws, if you do not know it and you act independently, then you are making your life risky. So this is the case of the government law, and what to speak of God's law, nature's law, how strict it is. You can avoid government's law, but you cannot avoid nature's law. That is not possible. So that is the defect of the modern civilization: they do not know how nature is working, and they are keeping themself in ignorance, and they are suffering, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one body after another. And if he becomes a tree, stand up for five thousand years. And we have to pass through all these stages. He has come to the human form of body. Still he neglects. He continues suffering. They are mad after sense enjoyment; and accepting different material bodies, that means suffering. As soon as you accept a material body, this is suffering. But the suffering of the trees is more suffering. In a forlorn place he stand up for five thousand years and tolerate all the blast, wind, scorching heat, water.
Prabhupāda: You have, all right. My point is that you have so many things, but the suffering is going on. That is my point. You increase your means of diminishing suffering, but they are coming in a different way. So the sufferings cannot be stopped. That is not possible. This is the conclusion.
Śrutakīrti: But we're learning how to enjoy even the suffering, make the best of it.
Paramahaṁsa: Best use of a bad bargain.
Prabhupāda: That is another bluff. That is another bluff. But then don't say that "We shall stop suffering." You can say that...
Amogha: No, we don't say we can stop it, but we can almost stop it.
Śrutakīrti: Minimize.
Prabhupāda: Latin, yes. People's vote. The people may be asses, but still, their votes will be taken, the vox populi. The fourth-class, fifth-class men, and they are giving vote. And the mistake is detected. Just like this Nixon was voted and the mistake was detected. But still, they follow the same process, vox populi. What is the value of the votes of the fourth-class, fifth-class men? Better one intelligent man, if he knows things, if he is liberated, if he says, "This is right," that should be taken. That is Vedic civilization. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa. We are not accepting the vox populi. One person, the Supreme, that's all. This is our process. We don't accept vox populi. All these Vedic literature are accepted not on the people's vote, but who is presenting? Vyāsadeva is presenting, Kṛṣṇa is presenting. Parāśara Muni is presenting. Therefore they are accepted. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. So what is the value of their votes if they are not intelligent?
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to believe only. You have to accept what Bhāgavata says. That is your business. Not to try to make an experiment. That is not possible. It is already experimented, and the mature knowledge is stated there. You have to accept, that's all. Śruti-pramāṇa. Śruti means Vedas. Evidence... Vedic literature there are three kinds of evidences. The most powerful evidence is śruti. If it is stated in the Vedas, that is first-class evidence. Therefore whatever we say, immediately quote some Vedic version, that is the way of understanding. Kṛṣṇa says, Vyāsadeva says, Parāśara says, that's all. We don't require much proof. This is the first-class proof, when you find the statement corroborated by the Vedas. And śruti, smṛti. Smṛti means literature written according to the Vedic version. Śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi (Brs. 1.2.101). Purāṇādi is itihāsa, history. And another pramāṇa is anumāna. And anumāna means "by right person." Thinking that it may be like this, anumāna. That is called anumāna.
Prabhupāda: They generally think so, but that is not possible.
Śrutakīrti: That is not the fact.
Prabhupāda: In Paris very, very old men, seventy-five years, eighty years old, they are going to the nightclub, paying $50 entrance fee, then they spend money for woman, wine. And few hours they stay there and come back. They are all old men. It is very difficult job, but still by Kṛṣṇa's grace you are accepting this principle. That is great mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is very, very difficult. One old man, I told you that Marquis of Zetland? In London? So he proposed one of my Godbrothers went, "Can you make me brāhmaṇa?" "Oh, yes. You give up this habit." "Oh, that is impossible. That is impossible. This is our life." So in the Western countries that is the life, to have illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, and gambling. There are organized clubs, brothels, hotels, only for this. People are accepting this principle, young boys like you, it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy on us. Otherwise it is impossible.
Prabhupāda: ...plans. They had to work very hard to find out, "What is this? What is this?" So that is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kliśyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. "Working hard simply to know." Kliśyanti. Kliśyanti means working very hard, labor. Kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Simply to understand. But they are not kliśyanti to understand God. Kliśyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. This kind of knowledge is compared with beating the bush. That's all. After taking away the paddy grains, only the skin remains. And if you again beat the skin to get grains, that is not possible.
Devotee 1: Beating the husk.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is like that. Kliśyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. (break)
Devotee 2: Prabhupāda, I have seen in New Zealand that the diary farmers they cut the tails off the cows.
Madhudviṣa: The question was, Prabhupāda, is it possible for a person to return to the spiritual world without taking initiation from a bona fide spiritual master?
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī said, ā dau gurv-āśrayam. First business is to accept spiritual master. Ā dau gurv-āśrayam. Who will train him? He is already fool, rascal. He must be trained up. So he must be trained up by the representative of Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee 9: Is second initiation necessary, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Second or first only.
Devotee 9: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what are you saying? You said before there's no necessary for a spiritual master and now you...
Devotee 1: He said in the spiritual world there is no necessity.
Devotee 9: Oh, in the spiritual world.
Devotee 1: Everyone is in full knowledge. In the material world everyone is in darkness.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Because there are different grades. But at least one class of men should remain in the society as ideal, God conscious. Just like for our usual life we require lawyers, we require engineer, we require medical practitioner, we require so many, similarly, in the society there must be a class of men who are fully God conscious and ideal. That is necessary. Just like in your body you have got hands, legs, belly, but the head must be there. If your head is cut off, then, despite you have got hands, legs, and belly, it is useless. So this attempt, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is an attempt to keep at least one class of men, ideal devotee, ideal character. At least, people will see, "Oh, here is an ideal character." That is required. That is described in the Śrīmad-..., Bhagavad-gītā, how to create a first-class man. Just like we have got educational institution for giving instruction on law or medical science or engineering, similarly, there must be an institution to make first-class devotee, ideal man.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not ideal and neither it is possible. Not that everyone is going to be lawyer. Even though everyone has got the ambition to become a first-class lawyer and earn like anything, but that is not possible. So therefore it requires selection, who will become a lawyer, who will become a scientist, who will become a medical man...
Guest 2: In our society you are taught in school that if you try hard enough, you can become prime minister.
Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no harm. You become prime minister. But I say that not everyone is capable to become prime minister. That has to be. If one man is not capable and if he takes education to become, he will waste his time.
Prabhupāda: ...bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking by material adjustment they will be happy. That is not possible. But they are so fools, they do not think over it, that "Where is the solution? You have given me the chance to live in a skyscraper building, but is that solution of the problems?" They have no brain to ask this. Is it...? Does it mean that if you live in a skyscraper building there will be no death, no disease, no old age? Then where is the solution? But real problem is going on. Everyone is trying to save himself from disease, from old age, from death. Why do they go to the physician as soon as there is some disease? "That I may not die." The attempt is to save from the death, but ultimately they are dying. They have no brain to think of it. Why do they go to the physician as soon as one is diseased? Why do they go?
Amogha: They want to be well.
Prabhupāda: Life enters into the matter. Then it comes out with a particular type of body. The soul enters in the womb of the mother and the mother gives the body. The soul comes through the semina of the father, and then the mother's ovum and father's semina mix together, creates a situation for developing a body. This is the science. Without that living entity there is no question of pregnant. Simply a mixture of matter. No, that is not possible. (Boys heckling in background.)
Boys: Rascals! Cheater!
Guru kṛpā: The all-American family. If the moon is illuminating the earth at night, then how come you have brought back dull pieces of rock. They should have also been shining.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a common sense.
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is foolishness, that... They have no future. So it is useless, "Keep out." Imagination, concoction, foolishness—this is the basic principle of material civilization. Mūḍhā, that's all. "I am asking to keep out; I do not know how long I shall live here." That he does not think. "I am asking others, keep out." If somebody asks him, "You are asking others to keep out, but when you will be asked to keep out, who will protect you? Is there any protection? Will your sons and grandsons and wife will protect you?"... That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, pramatto tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati, dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣu ātmaśainyeṣu (SB 2.1.4). He is thinking that "These, my wife, children, and relatives and friends, will protect me not to be thrown out." But that is not possible. He will be thrown out. He will have to be kept out. And that is not by accident.
Prabhupāda: Mahā. Mahā means very great. So unless one has very big understanding, he cannot understand God. God is unlimited. So you have (to) come to that platform to understand. Those who are limited, they cannot understand God. That is not possible. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Siddha. Siddha means one who has become unlimited, Brahman, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, Brahman realization. So Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu: "Out of many millions of person," kaścid yatati siddhaye, "somebody is trying to become unlimited." And yatatām api siddhānāṁ: (BG 7.3) "Those who have become unlimited, out of millions of them, one can understand Me, Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa understanding, God understanding.... When I say Kṛṣṇa, God. God understanding is for the perfect unlimited, not for common man. Common man should accept the ācāryas.
Prabhupāda: No, what he will prove, psychological...? Psychological means mental plane. How he will understand soul from the mental platform? That is not possible.
Bali-mardana: What they want to know is the effect of the, the effect on the mind of the soul.
Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. As soon as one is on the platform of the soul, the intelligence, mind, body, everything will be good.
Bali-mardana: That is what they are studying.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing. Just like if you get millions of dollars, ten dollars is already there. You haven't got to endeavor for ten dollars. Similarly, if one who is on the platform of soul... Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you understand the platform of soul, then you understand the other platforms: the intellectual platform, mental platform, bodily platform. And platform of knowledge, pratyakṣa, parakṣa, aparakṣa, adhokṣaja, aprakṛta. So aprakṛta is this platform of the soul.
Prabhupāda: ...the animals. Take, for example, the cows. If the master is Kṛṣṇa conscious they are not killed. And if the master is a rogue, they are killed. They have no knowledge how to protect themself. They take shelter of a master. So if the master is good, then their life is safe. And if the master is rogue, then they are killed. So it requires the leader. Formerly the kings were saintly, rājarṣi. Therefore there was peace. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. They are generally in darkness. They believe that "Somebody, this man, will give us protection." But the man is treacherous. He sits down on the post of giving protection, but he kills. This is going on. Therefore if the leaders become nice, Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be all right. (break) These rogues, by force, by device, they all occupy the government post.
Prabhupāda: War? The war will be for a few days only.
Bali-mardana: Then the presses can go on.
Prabhupāda: This war will not prolong. That is not possible.
Harikeśa: So this is not the big one.
Prabhupāda: No, it is big war, but it will be finished within short time.
Bali-mardana: Drop their bombs, everything's finished.
Upendra: But the argument is that these bombs will create more disturbance than just the blowing up. They create what's called radio-active fallout.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that will do. But the war will stop because the party which will be able to drop the bomb first, he will be victorious.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is the fact. And Chinese Communism will be perfect if they take little instruction from us. We are also Communist, Kṛṣṇa Communist. We want that everyone should be happy. The Communistic philosophy is also like that. They want to see everyone happy. But they have made a materialistic center. That will not help. People are attracted to these bad habits of materialistic civilization. The most important is that sex and intoxication and meat-eating and gambling. So their attraction has to be changed. Otherwise, although these Chinese, they are pushing in the village, that village also will be a brothel. They must have some attraction. So where is that attraction? Just like the hippies. They do not like this civilization, but the attraction for the sex and intoxication they could not give up. So they remain the nasty again in a different way. The process should be mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. That attraction. Mayy āsakta. "The attraction which you..., should be changed to Me." This yoga should be practiced. Then it will be all right. The same example: if you keep the dogs as dog, there is no possibility of making a peaceful dog society. That is not possible. You have to change their doggish quality. Then there will be peace. How you can expect peaceful society amongst the dogs?
Prabhupāda: Bahya means external, and abhyāntara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyābhyāntaraṁ śuciḥ. Śuciḥ means purified, brāhmaṇa. And who is not purified, he is muciḥ. (break) We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. (break) ...not expect everyone to become brāhmaṇa. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Kṛṣṇa consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). One can get perfection, even becoming a śūdra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brāhmaṇas can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. No. The śūdras also can become, provided he is guided by the brāhmaṇa. (break) At the present moment the whole human society is full of śūdras. There is no brāhmaṇas. So you have to train real brāhmaṇas. (break) ...how respectfully received that Sudāmā Vipra, not that because he was a caste brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: That kicking out will convince them. Otherwise, they will not be convinced. So long they are in the post, they will never be convinced. But when they are kicked out, when they are street dog, then they will be... (break) Otherwise, you can pass resolution, the senators. When the senators come for vote, you tell them, "First of all dismiss all these things. Then we shall give you vote. Otherwise no more vote." Then they will be also. And vote has become cheap. Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. That example I was giving, that small animals and big animal. The lion is a big animal, and he is afraid of by the small animals, jackals, cats and dogs. So out of fear, they are giving vote. But giving vote to whom? To an animal. So how they can be happy? A small animal is giving vote to the big animal. But suppose a big animal, a lion, he is very powerful. Does it mean he is human being? He is animal. So the small animals may be afraid of that big animal, but the human being knows that he is animal. That's all. He doesn't care for this animal. The animal may be very strong, but that does not mean he will be given any credit of human being. No. That is not possible. So in this animal civilization there are many strong, big animals. So they are voted by the small animals, but we are not going to vote that he is very important figure. No. We immediately reject. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). "One who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is useless." That's all. We are not going to echo the small animals. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: It is... Very simple answer is: when the mother certifies, "He is your father," that's all. You don't have to make research. That is futile. By research, you cannot understand who is your real father. You can understand your real father only by the certificate of your mother. That's all. Therefore our Vedic mantra says that religion and God cannot be manufactured by speculation. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkena yojayet. Just like this example, father. Father was existing before my birth. So after my birth, with limited knowledge I make research who is my father—you will never find your father. But if you take the certificate of your mother, that is there. Similarly, acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā, things which are beyond our conception, that cannot be established simply by argument, logic, so-called science and philosophy, that is not possible. The same example: by argument, logic, science, philosophy you cannot ascertain who is your father.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayatīrtha: So it's a different thing now.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot stop war between bad elements. Make them good. Then you can avoid. You cannot stop fighting between the dogs. That is not possible. If you try to make the dogs stop fighting, it is not possible. Is it possible? Then it is useless attempt. You keep the human being as dogs, and you want stop fighting. That is not possible, impractical.
Peter: Must a person believe in Kṛṣṇa in order to chant?
Prabhupāda: You must believe somebody. You believe in God or not?
Peter: Do I believe in God?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. We have to work.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. One of the important things about taking prasādam is that all the devotees sit together. It is actually a very spiritual activity. Just like in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, the feasts...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is recommended, that we are following. But now it is not following?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I have to say frankly, I have seen now that in many... I don't want to get into mentioning any names, but some devotees are preaching this.
Prabhupāda: Preaching? Who is that nonsense, preaching.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Revatīnandana Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Your position is very minute. So you can desire up to that limit, not that you can desire "I become complete, universal." That is the defect of the Māyāvāda. "Because I am equal... So 'ham. Because I am qualitatively one, therefore I am one in every respect." A drop of ocean water, if he desires, "I become ocean," that is not possible. But a drop of ocean water contains the same ingredients as the big Pacific Ocean. So in your quantitative proportion, if you desire, that is your perfection.
Brahmānanda: Understanding one's position.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: That's sensible. (break)
Devotee (1): Like in the Tenth Chapter it's talking about...
Prabhupāda: Hm, not come very near. Yes?
Prabhupāda: So there is no question of here and there. You can become advanced in spiritual life anywhere if you follow the principles. That we are teaching. We are opening centers all over the world. You take the advantage of our teaching, our books, our center. Then it will be all right. They are following, these Europeans and American boys. They are young boys. They are giving up meat-eating. Do you give up meat-eating? Why Indians, you should learn meat-eating? They are giving up, and you are learning to eat meat. This is the lesson, that these foreigners, they were accustomed to eat meat from the childhood, they are giving up, and you are eating meat. This is the instruction. Indians are drinking. They are giving up drinking. The lessons are already there. There is no question why. The lessons are already there, books are already there, the centers are already there. You learn and make your life purified. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. When we say, "No meat-eating," it is meant for everyone. Anyone who wants to become first-class man, it is necessary for him. And there is no question of Indian, European, American. You are committing so many sinful lives, and you want to become happy—that is not possible. Now this paper Time is puzzled: "Crime and What to Do?" But they do not know... (break)
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is not possible. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). You have to cleanse the mirror of your consciousness, then the reflection will be properly viewed. If you keep it dirty, then it is not possible. Therefore we require first-class men to understand this philosophy, not the fourth-class man. If you keep him fourth-class man, it is not possible.
Devotee (2): We are giving these books to so many common men. Then the books will attract them to perhaps chanting and following the regulative principles.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if they read. Even if they touch. That is the difference between this book and ordinary book. Even they touch and they read one line and says, "Oh, it is very nice," he makes a step forward. If he simply says this word, "Oh, it is very nice," that is sufficient to bring him. Therefore I am trying to push. He has paid some money. He will then say, "What these nonsense have written. Let me see." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: And the most miserable condition is explained as janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi: (BG 13.9) birth, death, old age and disease. So we living entities, we are eternal, part and parcel of God. God is eternal and we are also eternal. Just like gold and little portion of gold. Both of them are gold, but the big gold and the small gold, that is different. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, qualitatively we are one; quantitatively we are different. Although we are different, still, in the spiritual world we can enjoy the same facilities in cooperation with God. We are trying to be happy in this material world. That is not possible. Because here there are four principles of miserable condition, which we cannot avoid. They are birth, death, old age and disease. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as birth, death, old age, and disease.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. At least in America, I know, they pay man for sex pleasure. Is it not a fact? Eh?
Jagadīśa: I didn't hear, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes woman pays man for sex pleasure.
Jagadīśa: Sometimes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is one lady. She would like to come and see you. She is the mother of one of our devotees. But she is coming wearing tilaka and a bead bag.
Prabhupāda: Very good. (pause) But I am not speaking of my experience. When we speak, we speak from the śāstra. So this woman's dependence is described in Manu-saṁhitā. And there are many instances. Just like Kuntī. Kuntī was not ordinary woman. She was very learned, exalted woman.
Prabhupāda: She can become equal with man. Spiritually advanced man and woman, they are equal. So long one is materially encaged, this is not possible. (pause)
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Winnipeg there is one very pious east Indian man who for many years has been worshiping somewhat, worshiping Lord Śiva. And his wife is also a very quite chaste woman and sincere follower—and so were her parents—of Lord Śiva. And he is reading your Bhagavad-gītā. He visits our temple. And I have given him the first volume of Canto Four which discusses Lord Śiva a great deal. And he has read in one of your purports that Kṛṣṇa is more pleased when you worship His devotee than when you worship Him directly. And Lord Śiva is a very great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So he has now interpreted that to mean that if he worships Lord Śiva so nicely, then actually he is pleasing Kṛṣṇa more. So he is experiencing some difficulty because of this and I'm not quite sure how to instruct him that actually...
Prabhupāda: Difficulty?
Prabhupāda: Anyway, it is not possible that he has seen all the bones. That is not possible. So taking it that he has studied by seeing the bones, but I can say very easily that it is not possible for a person like you to see all the bones. That is my challenge. How you can say that you have seen all the bones? You say, "Millions and millions of years ago..." You live for fifty years. How you have seen all the bones? That is imperfect. You are a limited person. How it is possible that you have seen all the bones? What is the answer?
Satsvarūpa: They say they haven't found all the bones, but what they've found is conclusive evidence.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still, you cannot say that you have seen all the skulls. That is not possible.
Devotee: They will say they have not even found one skull from the Vedic culture.
Prabhupāda: Oh. No, Vedic culture do not keep skull, they burn it. Therefore there is no opportunity for you to see the Vedic culture. Then you become defective. Because you cannot see the skulls of Vedic culture. We burn it. So therefore your conclusion is defective.
Harikeśa: So the only bones they find are the bones of the fifth, sixth, seventh-class men.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Has he gone down the water? Then what is the...? simply speculation.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Factual scientific study would mean to study all 8,400,000 species?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is scientific study. But that is not possible. Therefore your theory is always imperfect because you cannot say that "I have studied all." You simply guess, "There is some gap, millions of years." So this is not study.
Brahmānanda: They say even there's a missing link, a part that they cannot explain. So they admit...
Prabhupāda: So that is not science.
Harikeśa: It's the most important part too.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say they are rascals. And rascals will believe.
Prabhupāda: So these things are uncivilized way of life, and what they will understand God? That is not possible.
Sandy Nixon: I'm asking these questions for others, of course, a field(?) that is not understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: To understand God means one must be first-class civilized man. Just like university is meant for first-class student, similarly, God consciousness means meant for the first-class human being.
Sandy Nixon: O.K. This question's a hard one for me to ask because it shows ignorance on my part. But I'm not asking it in ignorance. I want your answer on tape, O.K.? Does all desire ultimately have to go, including the desire to attain Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will have simply rubbish desires. And when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you desire rightly.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate. The first thing is that people become religious. Just like in your Christian religion they go to the church to get some material profit. "Oh God, give us our daily bread." This is material profit. Similarly, Hindus or Muslims, they become religious, dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90), the material activities. Those who are actually advanced... Those who are not even human beings, their philosophy is different. Those who are human beings, their dharma, religion. Then artha, economic development, and then kāma, sense gratification, and then mokṣa, liberation. These four things are taken as general activities. So Bhāgavata says your dharma... Religious principle means the ultimate goal is how to become liberated, not artha. Artha means economic development. So then question may be if you do not, if we are not economically developed then how we shall live? The Bhāgavata says that you can make economic development as far as it maintains your body and soul together. Not that making whole life economic development and real purpose of life forget. This is foolishness. So dharma, artha. Dharma means, religious advancement means how to get out of this material condition. Not that I go to temple and chant, "God, give me millions of dollars, and this, and that." This is not possible. It is good that one has gone to God to ask some help, that much credit is there. You have found out the verse?
Prabhupāda: No, we disagree with the whole system because he is trying to understand the Absolute Truth by his own effort. That is not possible.
Prof. Hopkins: So you would say then that no matter... He may have the right idea, but he has not, he has not...
Prabhupāda: He may be a great thoughtful man but (indistinct) ...a realized man.
Prof. Hopkins: Not realized. I'm sorry I raised the question right at the last minute but it occurred to me and I was interested in your answer. So, thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: You have given him prasāda?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then why he has become man? Why not animal? Therefore the śāstra says, "One who is engaged in these animal activities, he is animal. He is not man." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma idya-dhīḥ (SB 10.84.13). Actually, man is doing like that. In the jungle the similar animals, they flock together. This nationalism is like that. It is nothing better than that. So our defending, that "We are Americans," "We are Indians," "We are Germans"—the same thing. Because they are animals, they have this United Nations. The animals will fight, so they are trying to compromise, "Let us live peacefully." That is not possible because they are animals, all failure. (break)
Paramahaṁsa: Under the threat of nuclear warfare wouldn't Kṛṣṇa consciousness be more easy to spread?
Prabhupāda: That could be, but some... Just like somebody was saying that there are many planets unknown. They might have gone to some... Just like there are many parts of the world you have never seen. Even on this planet, you cannot say that you have seen all the parts of the world. That is not possible. (break)
Paramahaṁsa: As far as these unidentified flying objects that Werner Von Braun was recently mentioning, he says that previously they've had many sightings. They've seen these and filmed these, but they're afraid to release them or the government is afraid to acknowledge them because they're afraid it would cause a panic amongst the world.
Prabhupāda: What is that panic?
Paramahaṁsa: A panic that everyone would be frightened with the fact that there is people from other planets.
Prabhupāda: But everyone wants sunshine. Why in one place denied, and one place there is sunshine? You are not free. Even though you want sunshine, there is no sunshine. So how you feel free? You bring sunshine. But that is not happening. There is superior arrangement. So to accept that superior arrangement, that is real business, not to declare freedom falsely. That is not possible. If I say, "I am free from the law-abiding process, law given by government; I am free from the law of the government," that is not possible. If you become outlaw, then you will be arrested and put into jail. So what is the use of declaring that "I am free from the government laws"? There is no freedom. Whatever little freedom is given to us, if you utilize it properly, that is very nice. If we unnecessarily declare that "I am free from any obligation," that is madman's proposal. That is the mistake of the modern man, that, especially in the Western countries, unnecessarily they are declaring freedom in so many ways. Unnecessarily. He is not free, but he is declaring.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is truth. Without Kṛṣṇa, everything is untruth. Truth is one. Just like zero is zero. And it is added with one, then it is ten. It is truth. So zero is zero always. Hundred million times zero—it is zero. But when there is one, immediately value increases. So without Kṛṣṇa, all this material advancement, they are all zeros. But if you bring Kṛṣṇa, then it... that increases value-ten, hundred, thousand, tens of thousands, like that, million, billions. Because the one is there. So bring Kṛṣṇa, and then everything will be value. Otherwise, all zero. You may be proud of so-called material advancement. It is zero, because it will not save you, because tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) you have to change your body. So you have earned so much millions and billions of money. That's all right. But you have to go empty-handed. The money will remain here. You cannot take that money within the tomb. That is not possible. Then it is zero.
Prabhupāda: So that is described, how to make civilization perfect, who is going to hear and take it. Cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). If you can adjust things, you can utilize things, then everything will be useful. And if you do not know how to utilize things, then everything will be useless. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā and make everything useful. Then the human society will be perfect. Otherwise you'll go on manufacturing ideas, you'll never be successful. Because nature's law is working, you cannot interfere with the nature's law. That is not possible. You may think yourself very much advanced in science, but nature's law, you cannot interfere. Just like now there is movement, man and woman, equal.
Nityānanda: Women's liberation.
Prabhupāda: So you have to study first of all what is nature's law. You cannot surpass the nature's law. That is not possible. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Nature's law will go on. Best thing is, let the hand... the hand can typewrite, but if you say "No, the leg will typewrite," that is not possible. Take hand's business, take leg's business, and combine them cooperatively. Then the body will be nice. If the leg says "Why hand will type? I shall type," that's not possible. "Legs, all right, you walk, and hands that you type." Then combine together. Then it will be nice. You cannot change the different capacities. There is God's law, nature's law. Let the man and woman combine together, live peacefully. The woman takes charge of the household affairs, the man may take charge of bringing money, and they meet together, have Deity at home, together chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difficulty? That is unity. Combine together, working differently but for the same purpose, for pleasing Kṛṣṇa, then you will become happy. That is equality. Unity in variety. That is wanted. Variety is enjoyment. Variety is not disturbing. Just like Kṛṣṇa gave, all of them fruits, but variety.
Prabhupāda: It is not duty? This is the main duty. This is the main duty. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām (BG 18.66). We have taken responsibility for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are doing. Why we are traveling all over the world thrice in a year? We have taken the responsibility. Otherwise, who is, an old man, he'll take such responsibility? That is a greater responsibility. When you become a big officer of the government, it means you overburdened with responsibility, not this flickering resp... Here the material respons... means it has no use. You are simply wasting time. And here is real responsibility and real life. That I explained to that lady, that "Even if you take respons... what can you do? You cannot do anything." The example I gave, that "You have taken responsibility for your son's disease. He is suffering. You have brought good physician, you have brought good medicine, everything, but what can you do? In spite of your all responsibility, your son dies. Then where is the value of your responsibility?" Do you think simply by bringing a nice physician and nice medicine you can save your son? Then where is your responsibility? Actually you cannot do anything, so what is the use of saying that "I am responsible"? You cannot do anything. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If one blind man says, "I'll take responsibility. You all blind men follow me," so what is the use of this responsibility? He will die and others will die. So what is the meaning of this responsibility? Even if you take as very responsible man, you cannot do anything. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. (laughter) That is also replied, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā dura... (BG 7.14). "You cannot do that, my dear sir. You rascal, you are thinking like that. That is not possible."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they say they've already made so much progress.
Prabhupāda: You go on making progress but you will never come to the ultimate goal. You can go on foolishly. That's all right. Just like they made progress, United Nations. What progress they have made?
Harikeśa: They made a nice building.
Prabhupāda: That's right. (laughs) There are so many buildings.
Indian man (1): But they've been going to be assassinated.
Prabhupāda: No, intellectual level you can. That is definition of God. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇa. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya... Parāśara Muni has given. That is God just like you try to understand one thing. We have got some experience that there is a rich man, but that rich man cannot say that "I am the richest man in the world." That he cannot say. So this richness is one opulence, but you cannot find anyone who can say that "I am the richest man." That is not possible. But if you find somebody who can say like that, and if he proves, then he is God. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya. That Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram: (BG 5.29) "I am the proprietor of everything," that Kṛṣṇa says. And He proved when He was present. He proved it. So therefore He is God.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible in one day.
Dr. Patel: Thirty cannot come, but a few should come.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Few that... They are... Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate (SB 5.18.12). If they have got unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru, that is all qualification.
Dr. Patel: That is a fact.
Prabhupāda: That is all qualification. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcan sarvair guṇaiḥ. All these qualities are already there.
Dr. Patel: But for that you see, he has to withdraw his mind and all the senses from...
Prabhupāda: Even he does not withdraw, even it is sudurācāra, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva saḥ (BG 9.30).
Prabhupāda: Yes, ananya-bhāk, they are doing that.
Dr. Patel: Without severing his mind, anywhere he goes...
Prabhupāda: No. They are fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. That is a fact. You cannot bribe them to take from this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible. They may commit some mistake, but they are fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. That is bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. You cannot deviate them. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). So this qualification they have, and for this qualification they will be triumphant, without anything else. We shall return now?
Dr. Patel: Those thirty qualifications do come naturally, as you say, but they come slowly. But (Hindi) we must teach them this in the kṛṣṇa-bhakti, the qualities of a real sādhu.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is must. It is must. But you cannot force in the beginning. That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: But they have to be explained of it.
Prabhupāda: But if they fix up their mind in Kṛṣṇa, the vidhi-niṣedha automatically will come. That process I adopted. When they came to me I never said that "You don't do this, don't do that, don't do that." No. "You simply come here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." These are... Old students learned. I never said that "You have to follow these rules, these regulations, then you can come..." Because if chanting is properly done, then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12)—the mind will be cleansed of all dirty things. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathā kṛṣṇa puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). Simply by hearing and chanting, they will be pious. Hṛdy antaḥ 'stho hy abhadrāṇi vidhunoti suhṛt satām. Kṛṣṇa is there. As soon as He sees one devotee is sincerely chanting, He'll help, cleansing the heart. Vidhunoti... You will read Ajāmila upākhyāna. Simply by chanting Nārāyaṇa...
Prabhupāda: And because it is not contaminated, therefore it is not ordinary body. Therefore anyone who thinks of Kṛṣṇa as possessing ordinary body, he is described as mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ (BG 9.11). In the ordinary human, this material body, nobody can be controller of the laws of nature. That is not possible. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Unless one has got spiritual body, it is not possible to be unaffected by this material world. Kṛṣṇa never became old although He lived for a 125 years. He never became old. Now, how you can say...?
Dr. Patel: He was the controller of māyā but we are being controlled by the māyā.
Prabhupāda: No, no, anyway, a 125-years-old and looking like a young man of twenty years old. How it is possible in a material body?
Prabhupāda: (break) ...create another danger. Just like airplane. It is comfortable. You can quickly go from one place to another. But as soon as on the plane, immediately your life is at risk. There is no certainty. So this is the way of material world. You create some comfort and you create some greater danger also. Side by side. It cannot be unhampered comfort. That is not possible. You create a motorcar—the same thing—you drive very speedy and you meet accident. Railway, the accident. There was no need. You produce your food locally and produce your milk. Then eat, drink, and live comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Make your life successful. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). And if you have got education, then describe the glories of the Lord by your scientific and educational qualification. (break) The rain is coming. We can go this way. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). (break)
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Indian man 3: Still there is a desire to become desireless. (break) ...nice example for Mr. Seller, a murghee(?). He thinks the rains are getting under and then cutting his slack.
Prabhupāda: Expensive. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was one of those men over there. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One of the men over there made that sound, Prabhupāda.
Cyavana: They just came out of that dancing club.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: No. That you are failure. You have got so many machines. You go on, keeping the heart going on. That is not possible.
Harikeśa: Finally they just pull out the plug. The doctor kicks the plug one day.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Brahmānanda: At the present moment, I was reading, there is one girl in America, New Jersey, teenage girl. And for some unknown reason she went to sleep one night, and in the morning she did not wake up. So they then rushed her to the hospital, and they have an artificial machine that is keeping her alive, and this has been going on for one month. All of her bodily functions are becoming more and more diminished, but still, by this machine, she is alive. Now this has gone on for one month. So now they don't know what to do with her. Should they keep her like this, just running on the machine, or should they stop the machine and then she will die? This is a big legal problem. They don't know what... If they stop the machine, they'll be accused of manslaughter.
Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. You have already given good medicine, good physician. And why he is dying? You cannot do anything. That is your position. You may try to do, but that is futile. Ultimate is different.
Cyavana: So by giving him medicine, maybe I can give him a better chance...
Prabhupāda: "Maybe" can be, but it is not guaranteed. You cannot do anything.
Cyavana: But at least I should try.
Prabhupāda: Try. Foolishly you try whatever you like. That is another thing. But it is not under your control. You can try. That is your... Of course, you must try as a dutiful father, but you should know that you cannot take any guarantee or do anything, good or bad. That you have already said, "the destiny." That is prominent. That is prominent, not you.
Prabhupāda: You can do the best to train your child to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is in your power. That you can do. That is the best service, not anything else. That is not possible. If you become yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, and if you try to make your son Kṛṣṇa conscious, that you can do. And that is the duty, real duty. Other things, you cannot do anything. That is destiny. And if you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, then destiny can also be changed. This is the concession of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Destiny also can be changed. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). One who comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his karma is also changed.
Cyavana: Is that karma dovetailed?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No question of creating. They have destroyed themselves. Save yourself from destruction. Then you talk of destruction. You destroy. That's all right. But you will be destroyed by some other greater power. What you are going to do that? What you have done for that purpose? You destroy. That is going on, nature's way. I am killing somebody, somebody is killing me. That is nature's way. So what is your special credit? There is no credit. There is no credit. You save yourself not to be destroyed by others. "I can destroy others but nobody can destroy me"—that Hiraṇyakaśipu tried. But that is not possible. Ultimately he was destroyed. That's all.
Devotee (2): They don't seem to care too much about the future.
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Therefore we call them rascals. Therefore we have given this position, rascal, that's all. Talk too much, do nothing—that is rascal. (bugles sound in background) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Hm?
Prabhupāda: You enjoy, but where is your enjoyment? Why don't you see to this? Therefore this is not the way of enjoyment. We say there is enjoyment. Just like a diseased person, he wants enjoyment. How he can enjoy? He is diseased person. It is not possible for the diseased person to enjoy. First of all he has to cure his disease. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam (SB 5.5.1). First of all, your existence should be purified by tapasya. Be cured of the disease. Then you'll enjoy. Enjoyment is your right. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). That is your right, but you are now diseased. Why don't you see to this? You are dying therefore. You are becoming old therefore. This is your disease. That they will not admit. In the diseased condition they want to enjoy. Then tuberculosis. If a tuberculosis person, suffering from tuberculosis, he wants to enjoy sex, that means he will die very soon. His life is finished. But he wants that, that "I shall suffer from tuberculosis, at the same time enjoy." Then all right, go to hell. What can be done? Enjoyment is the life, but when you are diseased, you must first of all "Heal thyself," then enjoy. That enjoyment will be nice. This is the instruction of śāstra, that you are working so hard day and night like hogs and dogs, but where is your enjoyment? First of all cure your disease. Then you will be happy. Simply working hard like hogs and dogs, you are thinking that you will enjoy. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Then how we can accept that? Drug is a material thing, chemical composition, and how it can help one, God realization? That is not possible. This is a kind of intoxication and hallucination, but it is not God realization.
Faill: Do you think that the great mystics down the ages have actually seen this spark? This is what...
Prabhupāda: What do you mean by mystic?
Faill: Well, there seem to be chaps who've had some very odd experience and always remembered it and found it very difficult to put it down in words.
Prabhupāda: Mystic means something jugglery? What do you mean by mystic?
Faill: Well, it's just the name they seem to give people who've had an experience of another level of reality.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot change. What is the answer for that? Nobody has been able to change the situation. Who has been able to change the situation? Apart from birth and death, where is the change of situation that there is no more disease? So advanced in science... So why the change of situation is not there? Why people are suffering? You are creating hospital. That's all right. But where is the process that no more disease? Where is the change of situation? That is called punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānam (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed. They cannot change the situation and trying again and again, hope against hope. This is their foolishness. Nobody is able to change the situation. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā dura... (BG 7.14). That is not possible, but they will not take it. "Yes, we are trying. Yes, we are trying." Dog's obstinacy. What you are trying? In the history there is no such instance that you have been able to change. It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot fix anything. You can simply think that "I am now fixed up." That is not possible. Even if you fix up one type of suffering, another type of suffering will come. So suffering must be there. The body means suffering. One should understand this, that asann api kleṣada asa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Na sādhu manye yato ātmano 'yam asannapi kleṣada asa dehaḥ. You are trying to adjust things, threefold miserable condition, but you should understand that as soon as you get this material body, it will be suffering only. Therefore whole Vedic civilization is a culture how to stop this material body. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they are also trying. The Buddhists, they are also trying. But they are thinking that "There is no soul. Finish this body." This is Buddhist theory. But they know that this is suffering. Similarly, the Māyāvādī, they also know this body is suffering, so they want to come out of the body and merge into the existence of God. The senses are already there, either Buddhist or Māyāvādī. And Vaiṣṇava philosophy is "Not only come out of this miserable condition of life, but enter into Kṛṣṇa's family and live peacefully." But so far the body is bad, it is accepted by all philosophies. Any kind of Indian philosophy, they will accept that body is bad.
Prabhupāda: So unless one agrees you cannot turn him. It is not possible. Five-years'-old boy, staunch devotee, and the powerful Hiraṇyakaśipu, father, who is threatening with his life and so many ways he tried that "You become atheist, godless. Otherwise I shall kill you." He did not agree. And similarly, the son also solicited the father that "You have got so much power by the grace of God. Why you are becoming atheist?" Both of them could not turn to their side. Prahlāda remained Prahlāda, and Hiraṇyakaśipu remained Hiraṇyakaśipu. (break) ...can expect that without agreeing, conceding, one can be reformed. No, that is not possible. Impossible.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not simply by rubber stamp.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. He must agree, "Yes." Therefore guru is required. Guru means, accept guru means, "Whatever you say, I will accept." That is guru. Otherwise friendly talk. Friendly talk will not do. To accept guru means "Now I accept you, guru, my instructor, without any argument," and that is acceptance. "Whatever you say, I shall do." That is agreement. Then he can be reformed. Śiṣyas te 'ha śādhi mā prapannam: "I surrender unto you. I become your disciple. Now you train me." Then he can be reformed. Otherwise not possible. (break)
Devotee: When we were at school we accept a teacher and he teaches us mathematics or something like this, but when it comes to spiritual life and we accept a guru, people criticize by saying, "Oh, you're not thinking for yourself anymore."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This understanding, that soul is different from the body, it is meant for the dhīra, not for the adhīra. There are two classes men, dhīra and adhīra. So adhīra
means busy fool, and dhīra means lazy intelligent. But our, this movement is meant both for the dhīra and adhīra. Adhīra. We can make them really human beings. Never mind he is dhīra or adhīra. It is so nice movement. Dhīrādhīra. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra priyau. It is very pleasing both for the dhīras and adhīras. Why not? What we are doing? We invite people, "Please come here. Chant, dance, and take prasāda." So both the dhīras and adhīras, they will be attracted. Dhīrādhīra priya. (break) You cannot make everyone dhīra; that is not possible. There is necessity of adhīra also. That is also... But it should be guided by the dhīra.
Indian man (1): Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra.
Prabhupāda: This is right answer, that you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. You must serve the stomach. Otherwise your position is very precarious. That is the answer. If the finger thinks that "I shall remain independent and be happy," that is not possible. The stomach must be supplied food, and then all the parts of the body, they'll be happy. That is the point. So you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the central enjoyer. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the center. Just like ordinarily this African state, if you do not satisfy the state or the president, then you cannot remain happy. Independently you cannot be happy. We require in every step sta... We have come to this park because state is cooperating. In the morning we shall come, and they have prepared it nicely. We are not going to the jungle.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is not possible. Any question about this? Just like these African women. They are going to work. There is no question of no work. They must. Otherwise they cannot eat. Anyone, if by working his livelihood is going on, how he can non-cooperate? This is not possible.
Brahmānanda: The thief is also eating.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's grace, just like the government gives the prisoners also to eat. But they are condemned. And government's grace that government provides all necessities. If a prisoner is sick, he is given the hospital facility. But he is restricted free movement, that much. Otherwise government gives the same facilities within the prison house and without the... The standard may be little different. Eko yo bahūnāṁ (yo) vidadhāti kamān. He satis... Why this human being prisoner? Even He is giving food to the animals, to the birds, beasts, everyone. Noncooperation cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says, bijo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (Bg 7.10). Now, you have to grow trees, plants and vegetables for your eating. So that you cannot have without cooperation with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives all the seeds. Bijo 'ham. You cannot manufacture the seed. He gives the seed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These people can be brought under control by bribing. There is no problem. They have no moral strength, and poor. They will accept bribe. I think by bribing it is still going on. Otherwise how they can stop this bribing? That is not possible.
Cyavana: No. This is their major problem, the immigration authorities. Once the people come here and start to make their exploitation, they cannot get them out. So they make all kinds of artificial regulations. You have to have so much money. You have to have this, and that, your ticket, so many things, to try to stop people from coming here, because once they're here, they just pay their way, and then they get anything they want.
Prabhupāda: You do not know; therefore you have to learn. If you want to remain rascal, fool, and still you want to know, that is not possible. You have to know from the real source. Then you'll know. But if you keep yourself in the rascal platform, then how you will know? Just like you have to go to a school to learn things. So how you can learn at home? Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You have to go in order to understand that science. So how do you argue, keeping yourself in darkness? In darkness you cannot see anything. "Oh, I do not see anything; therefore there is nothing." Is that very good reason? You are blind, you cannot see the darkness. That is another thing. But things are there. You make your eyes operated and manifest your vision. Then you'll see.
Prabhupāda: Unless he is perfect, he cannot remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. That is not possible. That is theory only. He must be perfect. Somehow or other, he fallen, so Kṛṣṇa gives him the chance. That is special concession for devotee. Some way or other, you become devotee. Even if you cannot finish the whole job, if you fall down, still, there is guarantee that you get your birth in a very good society. That is the prerogative.
Jñāna: What about like Mahārāja Bhārata?
Prabhupāda: That was also. If Mahārāja Bhārata... It was punishment and reward also. Mahārāja Bhārata, although he became a deer, he remembered that he was such and such exalted position but "I became attached to the deer and I forgot my regular duties." Mahārāja Bhārata, he became so much attached to the deer, he forgot his regular duties.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are keeping them cats and dogs by education, culture, and they want to be happy. How it is possible? First of all let them come to the standard of human being. Then there is question of peace and happiness. They are kept as cats and dogs, and how there can be peace? You cannot make any peace in the dog society. That is not possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So that consciousness can come only when one is spiritually educated. If he is simply engaged for satisfying the senses, material, then he remains a cat and dog. You cannot expect any peace.
Dr. Patel: I think the greatest damage done to this civilization of Aryans of India was by MacCauley, who introduced the British system of education.
Prabhupāda: But why you accepted that? (laughter) Why you accepted? Then why don't you accept? You should have refused.
Prabhupāda: No, there cannot be uniformity. On the bodily concept of life there cannot be any uniformity. That is a... When uniformity comes? Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. When? Brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Then uniformity. You have no knowledge of Brahman. You are living like cats and dogs. How there can be uniformity? That is not possible. (break) Practically you see uniformity. Somebody is coming from Europe; somebody, American; somebody, African; somebody, Canada; somebody, Hindu; somebody, Muslim; somebody, Christian. How they are becoming uniform? Because on the Brahman platform. And if you remain in this bodily concept of life, there is no question of uniformity. Para... (break) ...nirmatśarāṇāṁ. This uniformity means "I am envious of you; you are envious of me." This is our position. Bhāgavata says that this... Bhāgavata culture is meant for paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2).
Prabhupāda: Therefore we are constructing temples. At least you will think, "We are constructing Kṛṣṇa's temple." Because you are habituated to work, work for Kṛṣṇa. Go to sell books. Print books. Type for Kṛṣṇa. This is also the same thing. Because you are accustomed to all these things, so nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandha. When it is connected with Kṛṣṇa it is as good as chanting. Therefore we are so much eager. Otherwise there is no need of temple; we can chant anywhere. But that stage is not so easy, like Haridāsa Ṭhākura we can sit down and chant anywhere. That is not possible. Then you'll sleep. Therefore these things are required. Everyone, we are working for this temple. Every one of us, we know that "This temple not for my sense gratification: This is for Kṛṣṇa." So that is important. The police commissioner is thinking, "It is nuisance." Huh? Police commissioner is thinking it is nuisance. But we are not thinking it is nuisance. We are not so fool. The politicians, the police commissioner, they'll think of, "He is my enemy; he is my friend." That is their occupation. They'll never think of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So you can... Difficult to do, you can count ever... It is very difficult to count this sand. Can you count? It is very difficult. But you can waste your time in counting. (laughter) You are rascal; you can go on: "I shall count how many." But it is not possible. So that is rascaldom. Which is not possible, that we'll get. Now it is... Everyone knows there are some particles. Now you go on counting. Don't eat. Don't sleep. Go on counting. And śāstra says, ""Even if you are able to count this, you'll not be able to know God, even if you are able." This is not possible to count, but even if you become so expert that you can count one day, still it will be acintya tattva. That is... There is a verse that even one day you become the rolled sky... The sky is so big. You can roll it just like you roll up your bedding. And even if you can, all the atoms constituted, still you'll not be possible to know, understand God.
Prabhupāda: Time is eternity, but your formation is not eternity. Your formation is temporary. Time is eternity. (aside:) Thank you. No. Time is eternity, that's a fact, but your formation... Asann api klesada asa deha. It is temporary. That's all right. You know, I know, everyone. But it will simply give you pains, although it is asat. That you do not know. Time is... Body is temporary, but so long the body is there, you have to suffer. That body may be a ant's body or Brahma's body. So as soon as you get a material body, you have to suffer and go on examining urine and stool. (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...and that is good wealth. And take some urine and find out, "Here is life." That's all. They are examining very scientifically. Why don't you...? The dead man's urine, if you examine and find out some injection and give it in life. Life is gone away, soul, and they are finding out life from the urine. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...but it is very reasonable. They are finding out out so many atoms, particles, but in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said that all these atoms are aparā, inferior. Find out the parā, the superior atom. That is life. (Hindi question and answer) But you cannot bring in life by so-called mantras. That is not possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: You take decision or not, he will be killed. That you cannot say. You are becoming very much moralist, whether to kill, but it will be killed. You cannot save him. That is not possible.
Harikeśa: So, they should just keep the machines going?
Prabhupāda: No, they should stop this nonsense and save money. That's all. Therefore they are called rascals. It will not be persisting. It is temporary. So why should you spend money? That is intelligence.
Saurabha: They have examined those people, and they say they have the same symptoms as plant life.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They come in the paramparā system, through guru. Tad-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Therefore you have to go to guru to understand. You cannot understand personally. That is not possible. Therefore our system is to see through the guru and śāstra, not by these naked eyes. That is misleading.
Devotee (3): Then the key would be to recognize and appreciate the importance of the guru.
Prabhupāda: Parampara. Guru is also not authority by himself. He is authority by his guru, paramparā. If he is coming in the paramparā system, then he is guru. Otherwise he's not guru. Just like what we are doing? We are simply repeating the Kṛṣṇa's word. That's all. Therefore guru. And as soon as I make addition or alteration, I am goru
Harikeśa: Goru means?
Prabhupāda: No, no, so many dates have been quoted there. Which is correct? That is our question. So many dates they have discussed. And which one is correct? Either everyone is correct or everyone is incorrect. This is the... There cannot be many dates; that is not possible. Date must be one. So which one is correct? Who will answer this?
Brahmānanda: Everyone has a different opinion.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Devotee (2): Recently they had a big questioning in the... (too faint) ...newspapers what the outcome would be.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Yaśomatīnandana: It seems that it is better that he did not preach Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaśomatīnandana: With his understanding.
Prabhupāda: Of course, one cannot preach Bhagavad-gītā unless he is empowered by Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nahe nāma pracaraṇa. It is not possible. (end)
Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes... That is obstinacy.
Dr. Patel: That... Obstinacy or no obstinacy, that is their way. That's all. Truth has to be understood.
Prabhupāda: You cannot understand God in your own way. That is not possible. Everyone is...
Dr. Patel: "Those also come to Me," avidhi-pūrvakam. Avidhi-pūrvakam.
Prabhupāda: Avidhi means rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: You may call them rascal or rogue or...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Avidhi, avidhi...
Dr. Patel: But they are going to the same place.
Dr. Patel: Aren't there multiple ways of approaching the same truth? One may be more straight. Bhakti may be more straight, according to us, but...
Prabhupāda: No, no. But we are... Truth is one. Truth is one. You cannot say that "I have got my own way of understanding truth." That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Well, then I honestly have a little difference, and that is that truth is one point and we want to approach it. You go staight, directly. Yours is the shortest cut. I may be a fool, or a what you call, mūḍha...
Prabhupāda: So how you can remain...? If you are fool, how you can become a scientist?
Dr. Patel: But our science is taught to us, that's all. You may say anything about it, but that is what...
Prabhupāda: They are all anātha-jīvita. Yes. Everyone is independence and anātha. There is nātha, but he'll not recognize. Anātha-jīvita. Bhavantam eva caran nirāntaraṁ prasanta... So we are educating people how to become sanātha-jīvitam. Live on your master's... Everyone is living at the cost of master, but foolishly. Ahāṅkara-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). They are living at the cost of the master, but they will not accept. This is the disease. (break) ...natural life, sanātha-jīvitam. From the birth the child is sanātha, parents. Where is the possibility of living independently? That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Yamunācārya was śiṣya or guru of Rāmānujācārya?
Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya.
Dr. Patel: Rāmānujācārya was guru or śiṣya?
Prabhupāda: Yes, guru.
Prabhupāda: Again rascaldom, "chance." Who is making this chance? Can I make you by chance a dog? That is not possible. There is no such chance. It is by karma-phala. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ. The chance is that you are rascal, fool; you do not know what chance will make me what. Just like you infect some disease; you suffer from that disease. So this happens to the rascal. One who is intelligent, he does not infect. He is always cautious. Therefore this chance of infection is not there. Actually you cannot say "chance." It is your ignorance. You create chance. Because you do not know what will happen after something, on account of ignorance it is chance. But if you are fully aware, there is no question of chance. An intelligent student, he does not think, "By chance I may be passed." He reads properly. He appears in the examination, give the proper answer. It is not chance. And if he thinks, "All right, by chance I will be passing the..." Is it very intelligent? These rascals are talking like that. There is no question of chance.
Prabhupāda: (smiling, touch of irony) Yes. That also is difficult.
Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. (laughing)
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, Haridāsa Ṭhākura was chanting 300,000. So, That is not possible. You should not imitate, but whatever you fix up you must do.
Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted.
Akṣayānanda Swami: Yes. I was told in the beginning you asked the first disciples to chant 64 rounds?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I asked them to chant 32?
Prabhupāda: (grinning) Hm.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that you can say when you are yourself brahma bhūta (SB 4.30.20). But if you are not brahma bhuta, that is not possible. They are trying to unite everyone in the United Nations, all cats and dogs. They are simply barking. There is no possibility of unity. That is not possible. They'll simply go on barking. And it is an association of dogs barking. That's all. So if you keep them dogs, there is no question of unity. If you bring them to brahman consciousness, aha brahmāsmi, then there will be unity.
Dr. Patel: That is that sama sarveṣu bhūteṣu.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And then when you are in that stage, then you can become qualified to serve God. Mad-bhakti labhate parām. So bhakti is not so easy. Manuṣyāṇā sahareṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye.
Dr. Patel: It is more difficult than...
Prabhupāda: And this culture cannot be maintained unless one is God conscious. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). There cannot be any culture for a godless person. That is not possible. And, yasyāsti-bhaktir bhagavaty-akiñcanā. Just like this European and American boy is offering obeisances to the guru, this is culture. Why he has learned this culture? Because he has become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā, sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. If you make one devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then all culture will automatically come. One thing. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: So all devotees are cultured?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Theirs is really culture. Prahlāda Mahārāja says, tam manye' dhitam uttamam, śravanaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu-smaraṇam pāda-sevanam arcanam. Tam manye' dhityam uttamam, he is first-class educated. This is recommendation by Prahlāda Mahārāja. And Kṛṣṇa says, "If one is not God-conscious: duṣkṛtino, mūḍhā, narādhamā, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā." Where is their qualification? Duṣkṛtina, mūḍha. Where is culture? Suppose you steal by tricks, by, I mean to say, by legal tricks, does it mean it is culture? But that is going on.
Prabhupāda: If you manufacture your own knowledge, then you'll never be able to understand. (everyone laughs) Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) compulsory. You cannot understand; that is not possible. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that the honey, huh? Honey, honey, if somebody says, "Take this honey," the bottle, and he began to lick up the bottle: "It is not sweet. Why it is not sweet?" You go to a person who can open the bottle. (laughter) Then you'll see. You cannot taste the sweetness of honey by licking up the bottle. It must be... There must be some expert who can open it, and then you can taste. So they are trying to taste the honey in the bottle by their own imagination and licking up the bottle. Where is the taste?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is their imperfect knowledge. They do not know. What is thesis, what is antithesis, and the synthesis, they do not know. As philosophers, they have found out the three things. But so far the solution of the problem of human society.... You cannot solve the problems of animals' society. That is not possible. So this thesis can be understood by human beings. The animals cannot understand it, that within this body the soul is there. On account of presence of the soul, everything is going on, bodily affair. This thesis cannot be understood by the animals. So if you cannot understand, then you are also animal, although you are two-legged. So what is the value of your thesis, antithesis? You are animal.
Prabhupāda: God is proprietor. King is the representative of God. He knows.... He gives you some land, that "You take this land, produce your livelihood, utilizing this land, and whatever you produce, one fourth give me." Not a fixed tax. "If you produce, one fourth is mine. If you don't produce, there is no tax." This was the system. And that includes all tax. No botheration. So people were God-fearing, honest, simple-dealing. So "I have produced a hundred mounds of rice. The king, you can take twenty-five mounds. That is my obligation." And king is also satisfied. By distributing that grain, he maintains the whole government. The real difficulty is all these rascals, they are not sufficiently educated. They are mūḍhas. And they are trying to solve the problems. That is not possible. That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are bound up. They're making adjustment, but.... Just like Gandhi. For making adjustment, all of a sudden a man came, (makes sound like gun) khat. Finished. Kennedy was making some adjustment.
| Page Title: | That is not possible (Conversations 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 02 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=114, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 114 |