Prabhupāda: If you go high, some 25,000, fifty thousand miles up, you'll simply find in the sky nothing manifested. But if you go still higher, higher, higher, you will find some other planets existing. So the part which is nonmanifested is called avyakta, and the part which is manifested, that is called vyakta. So these two souls from Vaikuṇṭha, they are coming into this material world. So they're penetrating the nonmanifested matter. As the matter... Five elements—earth, water, fire, air, ether. And then... These are gross elements. And there are subtle elements: mind, intelligence, ego. And then spiritual. Our body is composed of three things—the spirit soul, and it is covered by subtle body: mind, intelligence ego; and there is gross body: fire, water... earth, water, fire, air, ether. So this universe, this universe is only one universe, but there are millions of universes, and they are covered with the gross and subtle elements. And penetrating that gross and subtle elements, when one comes to the sky, there are innumerable planets. The planets are seen, the suns and stars, like that.
Subtle body (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Almost invisible, yes.
Hayagrīva: Spiritual body.
Prabhupāda: Not spiritual. That is also material.
Hayagrīva: Like ghost bodies? Subtle bodies?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: Excuse me.
Reporter: Okay, thank you. Thank you. (door closes)
Hayagrīva: Their bodies are subtle bodies. They're not like gross bodies.
Prabhupāda: Just like... You try to understand me, that this matter, consisting of five elements, earth, air; earth, water, air...earth, water, fire, air, ether. And then, still subtler than ether is the mind, and then, subtler than the mind is intelligence, and subtler than intelligence is the spirit soul. So before we reach our spiritual platform, there are so many elementary material platforms. So in different planets one of the element is prominent. Just like we can experience in the ocean and sea the water is prominent. In the land earth is prominent. Similarly, in different, just like in the sun planet fire is prominent. So in each and every planet there are particular type of body, particular type of residents. You cannot expect that the same type of body and same type of residents are there.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, we are not manufacturing this idea. That it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ: (BG 14.4) in every species of life, whatever forms are there. And besides that, we take this body as dress. Just like your white shirt is not you. You are different from the white shirt. Similarly, one may have a body white or black, but he, as spirit soul, is different from the body. We are taking account of the person who is possessing the dress—not the dress, but the person. Just like I am talking with you, I am not talking with your shirt. I don't look to your shirt, whether you have put on a white shirt or black shirt. That is not my concern. I am concerned with you as a living being. This is our philosophy. We don't take account of the outward shirt and coat. This body, this gross body is just like coat, and within this gross body there is subtle body—mind, intelligence and ego. Within the subtle body, the spirit soul is there, and we are trying to deliver the spirit soul from these two kinds of entanglement, subtle and gross. That is our aim. The national movement or religious movement, that is more or less on the basis of the outward dress. One is Christian because he is born by a Christian father. Is it not? One is American because he is born on the land of America. We say that you are neither Christian nor American, Hindu, Muslim or Indian. You are servant of God eternally. Try to understand this fact, and make your life in that way. Then your life is successful. This is all. Simple. Now what is your comment on this statement?
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: World is vast. So according to your karma... Just like you have got a particular type of body. You are young man, there is another young man also. Still, his body and your body is not exactly the same. His bodily feature, your bodily feature, his intelligence, your intelligence, they are all different. But a child grows to become young man, that's a fact. You are a child, another child was there. So they have got now different body. Just like you have got a different body from your childhood life. Is it not? But you know that you had a childhood body, although the body is not there. This is transmigration from one body to another. Just like a dream at night. You change this body. You accept another body. And although you're lying down on your bed, you've gone to some other place. Subtle body. Take for... This is a fact that we change our bodies so many ways, but I, the soul, I remain. So therefore, when this body will not exist I'll exist in another body. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). We can experience this, and it is confirmed in the śāstra. After destruction of this body we are not disturbed. I, as living entity, I remain, I accept another body.
Prabhupāda: They'll be happy and they will be peaceful, nice. And above, over and above them, they will have next life very blissful, full of knowledge, and eternal. Yad gatvā na nivarta... These things are all very nicely explained. There is eternal life. There is another nature. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). This is material nature, but there is another, spiritual nature. There everything is permanent. Here everything is non-permanent. Just like my body, your body. It is now getting older. And it will vanquish. This body will be finished. It will never come again back. Never come. This exactly type of this body you'll never get. So we have to accept another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. It is exemplified just like we change our shirt and coat and take another set, similarly, this gross body, material gross body, five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky, and then mind, intelligence, ego, subtle body, within that subtle body the soul is there, and after annihilation of this gross body, the subtle body takes to another gross body. The nature is going on like that. And we are wandering in different species of life, in different planets. But our real purpose is God-realization. That we are missing. That chance is in the human form of life. So if people are not educated to this goal of life, that is not helping the country or the society or the human beings. If we simply engage them in the activities of animal life—how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life, and how to defend, no more—then it is simply advancement of animal civilization.
Prabhupāda: No. We become separated from the physical body, but we remain in the astral body, or subtle body, mind, intelligence... mind, intelligence and ego. That mind, material mind, material intelligence, you give up when you actually remain in your spiritual body. So this is also a great science. But unfortunately, there is no discussion on this point in any university of the world. But this is a science. So actual human civilization means they should study, they should inquire about this science and be well conversant. And that is the human... Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra it is said that human beings should be interested to this science first. Because animals cannot inquire about this science. The animals, they are simply interested how to eat. So similarly, if a man also simply interested in economic development which means how to eat, how to sleep... That is also there in the animal kingdom. They are trying in their own way. But they have no problem. We have created problem. In the morning, we are thinking, "How to get such and such thing?" But a bird, beast, he has no such anxiety. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that you cannot get more or less. That is already destined. So don't spoil your time in getting more. Because... The example is given that nobody wants unhappiness, or some disaster. But the disaster comes, unhappiness comes. We have experience in our life. Nobody tries for that: "Let disaster come upon me. Let there be fire in my house." No. But the fire takes place.
Prabhupāda: That is our Vedic evidence. Whenever we speak something, immediately quote from Vedas. This is our process. If it is accepted by the Vedic process, then it is perfect. Just like in the law court. You are lawyer. You are arguing. When you quote from a judgement, previous judgement, it is accepted. Similarly, when you give authoritative statement support of your talking, then it is perfect. That is the way. Otherwise, what for these books are there? If it is mental speculation what is the use of these books? But as soon as we speak something, we immediately support by quoting from Vedic literature. And that is perfect. And now you have to possess little knowledge. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, how Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Kṛṣṇa is giving example side, by side. Yathā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, as there is the soul, there is the soul, asmin dehe, and he's having different types of bodies, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. He's changing body from childhood, boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, youth-hood to another state. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Where is the illogical presentation? This is scientific. For an intelligent man, this is scientific. And if he's still dull-headed, then what can be done? Kṛṣṇa gives example. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As the soul is changing body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, like that. Similarly, after finishing this body, it may be invisible to you, but the subtle body is there. We have got two kinds of bodies. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4). This material, eight kinds of materials—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego. So when your body of earth, water, fire, air... Now in the... Now here is a medical man. He knows about this body made of earth, water, fire, air.
Prabhupāda: No, not abstract. These are material. You have no eyes to see.
Guest (1): Well, at present, we can, we have got three different methods of studying intelligence starting from six months onward up to the adult.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, you accept. That is my point. Now you are studying, you accept. That means you accept there is intelligence. So besides this material body, gross material body, there is a subtle body. Subtle body. Just like besides your coat, there is a shirt, or there is a ganjee (?). Similarly, the soul is covered by the subtle body and the gross body. What is known as death, that is annihilation of the gross body. The subtle body remains there. And the subtle body carries him as he desires. The subtle body carries him to a place where he can again grow another material body according to the desire of the mind.
Guest (1): You mean the subtle body or the soul, the same thing?
Prabhupāda: No, soul is different. Soul is different. Soul is finer than intelligence. These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. When one misunderstands, he misunderstands everything. One who commits mistake, he can commit mistakes in so many ways. They want to merge into the Absolute. They think that there is no variety, to avoid this variety. Ah? Just like sometimes one is suffering from some disease, they commit suicide. He thinks, "I'm suffering. If I commit suicide, then everything will be stopped." But he does not know that by committing suicide he'll increase another set of varieties of miserable conditions of life. He'll become ghost. And becoming ghost, you cannot enjoy anything grossly. The subtle body will create disturbance. Therefore ghost creates disturbance. He hasn't got gross body to enjoy. They're ghostly haunted; therefore a male ghost haunts over woman, woman ghost haunts over man. You know that? It so happens. Ghostly haunted.
Yaśodānandana: In the New York temple they had a ghost upstairs.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Yaśodānandana: The New York temple in Brooklyn...
Prabhupāda: Aha.
Prabhupāda: Body consciousness is mental speculation.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say. You must go beyond that.
Prabhupāda: Ah. This is the gross body and subtle body. So when these jñānīs, they think that they have become liberated, but they are entrapped by the subtle body. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya...
Dr. Patel: These yogis...
Prabhupāda: Then they are also, the same thing: gross material thing.
Dr. Patel: The yoga means to join yourself. Your self means not body, not even mind, but your soul, to the higher soul of, that means the God. That is real yoga. And that is as good as bhakti. Or you call it yoga, anything. Yoga and bhakti comes to same thing then.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhakti is real yoga. Others are farce. Yoginām api sarveṣām (BG 6.47). The bhakti is real yoga. That is real yoga. And this is farce.
Dr. Patel: Mad-gatenāntarātmanā.
Prabhupāda: Ah. That is real yoga.
Prabhupāda: Subtle body... Just like your body at night is on the bed, but you are carried by the thinking, feeling, intelligence to somewhere else. Is it not? So how are you are carried? You are actually lying on the bed. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is carried by the subtle body. Similarly, death means that this body stops working. But the subtle mind... Exactly in the same way. Just as while you are sleeping this gross body has stopped to work, but the subtle body is working.
Dr. Patel: That is in, I mean, svapna.
Prabhupāda: Svapna, yes.
Dr. Patel: But that does not work in deep sleep.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Patel: In deep sleep it does not work, no?
Prabhupāda: This sleep means temporary. Again the subtle mind, intelligence, come back. So death means no more coming back. It goes elsewhere. That is death. Is it clear? Eh?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Lilavati: The subtle body...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you forget. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jayo. You forget. When you dream, you forget that you have got this gross body and you are the father of such and such or mother of such and such.
Dr. Patel: Because this is all due to mind only.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The mind, mind forgets. The subtle body works. Similarly, we are dying daily. That is also death.
Dr. Patel: Nitya pralaya.
Prabhupāda: Nitya pralaya. But... When... Now, because the body is fit, therefore we come again to enjoy with the body, kṣetra. We come to the kṣetra. Just like you are tilling some land, but when it becomes useless, you cannot till. You have to go elsewhere. Suppose it is overflooded. You cannot work there. Similarly, death means when the mind, intelligence, along with the soul, cannot work in this body, he has to go to some other body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ.
Dr. Patel: That is when the prarabdhaḥ...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be decided by the prarabdhaḥ and everything. So in this way, death means this gross body, no more working. That's all.
Dr. Patel: Subtle body lives always.
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: Till, till it is, I mean, liquidated from the māyā's clutches and...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Till...
Dr. Patel: ...comes into the Goloka with Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The vīta-rāga. When you, when you are completely freed from all attachment of this material world, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9).
Dr. Patel: Mām eti.
Prabhupāda: Mām eti.
Mr. Sar: Yadā sarve prabhur jante kāmāni manaḥ śaśvataḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you do not come again. Mām eti. You go back to home, back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you have not so many experiences. That does not mean these things does not exist. Your experience is not all in all. Don't think like that. So these are existing actually. That is the defect, that you do not accept the authorities. That is the defect. Here Vyāsadeva is describing, who is called Vedavyāsa, full of all knowledge, and Bhāgavata is a mature experience. We are hearing from him. Why you should not believe? I may not have experience. This ghost means the living entity is subtle life without any material body. That is ghost. When one is very sinful, he does not get the material body. He lives in the subtle body: mind, intelligence and ego. That is ghostly life. And they display. Because they have no body, one cannot see, but they display so many mischiefs. That is ghostly life. (break) Seeing or not seeing doesn't matter. Therefore it is enjoined in the Vedānta-sūtra, śāstra cakṣuṣā.
Indian man (1): But it should be proved.
Prabhupāda: It is true because it is spoken by Vyāsadeva. How you say it is false? You cannot say that. That is blasphemy.
Indian man (1): In olden days there used to be the ghosts and all these things, but now that is gradually...
Prabhupāda: But gradually... That does not mean you have improved very much. Because you do not believe in the ghost...
Indian man (1): Our mental condition has improved.
Prabhupāda: That is all... They may think like that, but this is practical thing. Try to understand that in daytime you are illusioned by this gross body, and at night you are illusioned by the subtle body. So both of them are illusion. Therefore if you are intelligent, your inquiry should be "What is my real life?" That is intelligence, "What I am?" That is... Sanātana Gosvāmī placed before... "What I am?" Ke āmi. That "I am simply hovering in illusion, gross and subtle. Then what is my real position? What I am?" That is real philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is called Brahman. When I am Brahman", so that is the beginning: "What I am? What is my position?" That illusion is going on. So the material life means he is in illusion for millions and millions of years. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgya... So out of many such millions and millions living entities, one becomes conscious, that "What is my real life?" That is awakening. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya (CC Madhya 19.151). Then he begins his devotional life: "My real life is this."
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that understanding? His understanding is that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. So let me surrender to Kṛṣṇa as He wants and serve Him." This is life. As soon as he is on this platform, then he is out of illusion. And if he is perfect, then just after giving up this body he goes to Kṛṣṇa. This is the process. If he does not fall from this transcendental service of Kṛṣṇa, then immediately after death he is transferred. Just like we are transferred from this gross body to subtle body, similarly, after death a devotee is transferred immediately to the Kṛṣṇa, where Kṛṣṇa is there, either within this material world or... They are first of all given chance to go to Kṛṣṇa. In any brahmāṇḍa there is Kṛṣṇa. Nitya-līlā is going on. So he is born there. Then actually plays with Kṛṣṇa, dance with Kṛṣṇa, talks with Kṛṣṇa. Apprenticeship. This is also apprenticeship here. So is there any difficulty of perception?
Satsvarūpa: No.
Prabhupāda: Why you said that "I have no perception?" There is perception, every day, every night. How you can say there is no perception? The perception is so strong, sometimes one dreaming some horrible position, he cannot more sleep. The sleep breaks. So why there is no perception? He is so much troubled that breaks. He immediately comes to the safe side of this gross body.
Prabhupāda: So how do you say there is no perception? So this transmigration of soul takes place that... Just like in daytime we are in this body, nighttime we leave this body and work with the subtle body, so transmigration soul takes place—with that subtle body he enters the womb of suitable mother, and this body is left. And there he grows again this gross body and then comes out. Is it difficult to understand? That is not illusion. That's fact. And death means that you left this gross body and the period you do not come out in another gross body, that period is called death. That period is called death.
Satsvarūpa: So you are dead for about seven months.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that may be, according to the body you are getting. There are 8,400,000 species of body. So according to your work you will be allowed to enter into the womb of mother. How can you check it? Where is your scientist? That is nature's law, automatically. Just like if you are infected, you get this disease. That's all. There is no need of mother nature will take personal... No, the rules are so fine that you will get automatically. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). The Kṛṣṇa's energies are so powerful and subtle that it takes everything takes automatically. One set up, then after that, after that, after that, after that—everything is there. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). Everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. You have no control. You are simply under the grip of material nature. Everything, whatever you are doing, immediately it is being recorded automatically. Just like automatic printing press. You simply push the paper, and magazine comes. If you can manufacture some machine, you rascal, then how subtle machine can work on under the supervision of the Supreme?
Prabhupāda: But what is the process?
Satsvarūpa: The subtle body carries the soul.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the main point. The subtle body carries the soul. Just like in dream, we are carried by the subtle body and placed in different condition. But so long this body is capable of working, I come to this body. My dream is over, and I come back to this body. And death means that this body, being useless, instead of coming to this body, I go to another body. This is transmigration. Just like when you vacate an apartment, then you do not come back in that apartment, but you enter another apartment. Is it clear?
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Anybody can understand. I am coming, going, but when it is a question of vacating, I go out of the apartment, but I never come back again. I will enter another apartment. "The soul enters another body" means enters the womb of another mother. And there the suitable body is created and again mother delivers the child. Again new chapter of life begins. Where is the difficulty to understand? But they are so rascal and dull-headed, the simple thing they cannot understand. And still, they are big, big scientists, philosophers, and cheating others. They are unable to understand, themselves, and the same rascal knowledge they are distributing to others and taking Nobel Prize. This is the mūḍhas, the society of the cheaters and the cheated. Where is the difficulty to understand the simple thing, how the soul is transmigrating?
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: If you have studied about the subtle body of living entity?
Psychologist: No.
Prabhupāda: First of all, this, this gross body made of five material elements—earth, water, air, fire, like that. This we can see with our eyes, but we cannot see the mind, intelligence and ego. Although everyone knows there is mind, there is intelligence. So when this body is annihilated, the subtle body—mind, intelligence, ego-carries the soul to another gross body. This is the process of transmigration of the soul. Now, what do you think of this process?
Psychologist: (Spanish)
Hṛdayānanda: She says in her... In the field of psychology also they admit also, they admit the existence of forces beyond the gross elements, and although ordinarily they do not deal with that, she is very interested to know about it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the law. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "The soul is not annihilated after the destruction of the body." You find out that verse, na jāyate na mriyate va kadacit. Read it.
Prabhupāda: Not exactly enters, but he catches the body. But because the ghost has no gross body—he has got his subtle body, mind, intelligence, and ego—you cannot see him, how he has attacked that body. You cannot see the body of mind, intelligence. You know I have got my mind; I know you have got your mind. But you do not see my mind; I do not see your mind. So ghost is within the subtle body: mind, intelligence, and ego. So with that subtle body, he attacks the man, but you cannot see. He does not enter into him. The enter is the soul within the body. Therefore sometimes ghost is walking in the room. We cannot see. But he takes away something. We see that the thing is going away. (laughter) Because you cannot see his gross body. And because he hasn't got gross body, he can move very swiftly. Now he is here; he can go ten miles away immediately. But there is ghost. And they attack specially woman.
Paramahaṁsa: Is that because the women are weaker?
Prabhupāda: No. Woman is attractive for any man, even in ghostly life. The other day, who was telling that a big poet of India, he said that "God's most wonderful creation is woman's body"?
Śrutakīrti: I think Brahmānanda Mahārāja mentioned? Acyutānanda.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (break) ...desert nice watermelon will grow. Yes. Nice dates. So people go there, take the dates and take the watermelon. Kṛṣṇa has provided food even there. (break)
Harikeśa: Would one see gross form on a subtle planet?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Harikeśa: Like the moon planet is heavenly planet. They're supposed to have subtle bodies there. So would there be any gross forms?
Prabhupāda: Why subtle body? That is material body.
Harikeśa: So we would not be able to see any traces of a civilization?
Prabhupāda: There is civilization. You have not gone there, rascal. You are simply imagining. (Devotees laugh) There is civilization. First thing is, you rascal, you did not go. You are talking only nonsense. That's it.
Paramahaṁsa: (break) ...Rahu planet, that's a hellish planet?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They might have gone to that hellish planet. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Siddha-svarūpa: It's often seen that an owner of a dog looks just like that particular dog. They look very much alike, and they have similar personalities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact because the subtle body is doggish and he is going to be a dog next life. Tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ. Because he is always thinking of his dog, always, therefore he is going to be a dog.
Bali-mardana: By association.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Saṅgāt sañjayate kāmaḥ. The desire becomes according to association.
Ambarīṣa: Everybody that's walked by today has had a dog. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Oh, why you are laughing? (break) ...two without association of dog. They have developed that consciousness, dog consciousness. (break)
Bali-mardana: ...thinking when the dog has to pass stool 'cause then they have to take him outside. (break)
Prabhupāda: (break) ...the statistics, how many dogs are there in the United States?
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, there are. There are more dogs than...
Prabhupāda: Than human being?
Prabhupāda: Yes, some. That is also deteriorating. (break) The sattva-guṇa... the Māyāvādī, they are also supposed to be in sattva-guṇa, but mixed with rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Therefore not pure.
Devotee (2): You were saying that when one is in the mode of goodness, that he is on the mental platform?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Devotee (2): Does that mean that he's not... He's experiencing the subtle body inside of the gross body, or what does that mean exactly?
Prabhupāda: Mental platform is mixed sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, not pure. But if you keep always Kṛṣṇa in your mind, then you are purified. The mind has no other opportunity to keep anything else. Kṛṣṇa is sitting there, then guarantee. (break) ...they keep always seeing Viṣṇu form within the heart. Therefore they keep in sattva-guṇa. Similarly, if you keep Kṛṣṇa, then you are in sattva-guṇa. And when that concentration on Kṛṣṇa is not disturbed, then it is śuddha-sattva. That is spiritual platform. (break) ...ekādaśī?
Nitāi: It's Saturday, the 6th.
Devotee (2): What does the yogi perceive when he cuts off the outer senses, he finally reaches the...
Prabhupāda: Perceive?
Devotee (2): What does he experience when he cuts off the outer senses and is able to...
Prabhupāda: Outer senses, what do you mean by outer senses-dead?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are just like machine parts. Parts and parcels, they are helping the whole machine work.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: About Guru dāsa prabhu's point, when the heart transplant, the soul stays in the subtle body. Is that sound?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Soul is always staying in the subtle body, and the subtle body is left when he goes to God or kingdom of God.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: One thing I'm trying to understand is how is it that the soul wants different things and then the material body acts according to the desires of the soul? So there is a cause and thereis an effect. Normally all our cause and effect, we see one material thing causing another material thing to happen. But how is it the spirit causes? What is the connection that spirit causes matter to do so many things? The spirit is manipulating the matter, but how? How is that contact there?
Prabhupāda: Contact? It is already in contact. You are in the material body. It is already in contact.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: But I don't understand how that contact is working.
Prabhupāda: Contact is working under the direction of God. The individual soul desires, and God arranges to fulfill his desire with the help of prakṛti.
Prabhupāda: Immovable in this sense: when he is fixed up in a certain body, then he is immovable from that body. Acalo 'yam sthanuḥ, sthanuḥ. Just like we're speaking of transplanting the heart. That does not mean you move the soul. That is immovable.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, the pure devotee's spirit soul is not trapped by the gross and subtle bodies?
Prabhupāda: Yes, when he is liberated by devotional service. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).
Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, when we try to explain to people that our philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is authoritative and is coming from undisturbed men, learned men, that our spiritual master is not an ordinary man, what does it mean that he is not an ordinary man?
Prabhupāda: He is not moved by the rascal scientist. (laughter) All rascals are moved by the so-called scientists.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda... (laughter)
Prabhupāda: (laughing) The scientist is angry.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The soul is trapped as well as untrapped in the material body...
Prabhupāda: Because he wanted to be trapped.
Prabhupāda: They are directing. Just like in the jail there are different departmental management, similarly, this management is required because you are in the jail. If you don't go to jail, the management may be closed. But you are thinking, "If I do not go to jail, how it will exist?" That is your business, say that "If we all become liberated, how this world will go on?" They say like that, as if it is very necessary.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, is the subtle bodies in the subtle world, are they made up of subtle atoms?
Prabhupāda: Subtle body means subtle atoms. So if we are in subtle body, so whatever there is in the subtle body, everything is there.
Devotee (6): Prabhupāda, sometimes on saṅkīrtana we say that the human form of life is the highest because in this form we can understand God, and they say, "Well, what about the dolphins? You know, they've been doing experiments with the dolphins, and they've been finding out that the dolphins have their own conversations and things like that."
Prabhupāda: So what they have done with the dolphins? They are talking only. What they have done? Simply theorizing. (break)
Prabhupāda: (in car) ...improved anything.
Satsvarūpa: Purport. "Two persons, one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such his bodily and mental activities should be engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The ignorant man forgets that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as Hṛṣīkeśa, or the master of the senses of the material body, for due to his long misuse of the senses in sense gratification, he is factually bewildered by the false ego, which makes him forget his eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: So this is false ego, to think of oneself as free. You are professor of economics?
Mr. Surface: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I think I may remember. There is economist professor, Marshall? Marshall's economics?
Mr. Surface: Yes.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the message, that people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your, this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things, earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements, five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?"
Carol Jarvis: Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording)
Prabhupāda: So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it.
Carol Jarvis: Yes, I know.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you manufacture pilot?
Carol Jarvis: Probably someday they may.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. That is nonsense.
Prabhupāda: It is not my—everyone's. You are in ignorance; you do not know; therefore we are trying to educate you. It is yours also. It is not a personal thing. It is meant for the living entities. That you people, you do not know, that we are all living entities. There is slight description of the evolution by Darwin. But he's also not in perfect knowledge. The real fact is the..., I am not this body, you are not this body. I am living entity within this body. Just like you are within your coat and shirt. The coat and shirt you are not. Similarly, we living entities, we are within this gross and subtle body. The gross body is made of earth, water, air, fire, and the subtle body is made of mind, intelligence, and egotism. So we are within this. So nobody knows; there is no educational system, what is our real constitutional position. We are wrongly accepting this body. And that kind of acceptance is there in the animals. The dog also thinking that "I am this body." So if I am thinking like that, "I am this body," then what is the difference between the dog and me? We are educating from him that point of view, that the living entity is entrapped within this body, and according to his desire, he's changing different types of body and undergoing continually birth and death. So in order to save him from the cycle of birth and death, one has to understand God, or Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means God.
Prabhupāda: The soul is going there. The seer is the same in this gross body or in the subtle bodies. I am in the, walking in this gross body, I'm seeing this ocean, and I will leave my gross body in dream, I go to India. So the seer is the same. That is the proof of transmigration. He's dreaming tiger, and he's crying, "Here is a tiger, tiger, tiger," and another man, who is seer of the body, he says, "Where is tiger?" So this is the difference. One is seeing through this gross body, another seeing through the subtle body, but the seer is the same. Transmigration of the soul means, when he's seeing through.... That is practical. The child, when he's seeing through the childish body, he's talking nonsense. The same soul, when he's talking as an elderly person, he's talking beautiful (indistinct). The seer is the same, simply the glass is changed. Sometimes blue, sometimes red. (break) Seer is the same, medium is different. That you have.... And dead body means the seer is no longer there. It has entered another body. (break)
Pradyumna: ...when someone is sleeping and dreaming, that the seer has left the gross body?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Bharadvāja: How does the.... Life symptoms, how are the life symptoms maintained in the body?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bharadvāja: The life symptoms are maintained in the body still?
Prabhupāda: Death is different. When the car is no more usable, that is death. But we are returning to the car because we know that it is usable. And if we know that it is useless, we don't go to that car. That is death.
Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda. At the time of sleeping, there is a subtle reality that the subtle body enters into?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Reality means as you take this awakening vision as reality, similarly, the dream vision is also real.... Nothing, none of them are reality. They are all temporary.
Yadubara: But that subtle reality is just as real as this gross reality?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll not stay. This reality will not stay.
Hari-śauri: It's all a dreamlike existence.
Prabhupāda: Yes, simply a long duration dream. Do you think this skyscraper building will stay? Nothing will stay. It may stay for five hundred years or five thousand years. But is it not permanent. Anything you take—the trees, this land, nothing; even this ocean. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). It appears again and again disappears, that's all. Everything. The material world means that. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. Vyaktāvyaktam. Sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. This town is manifested, and one big wave of sea, it will be nonmanifested, immediately.
Prabhupāda: One has to realize that he's not this body, he's spirit soul, and the spirit soul is within the body, and after annihilation of this body, the spirit soul is transferred to another body. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of life. And we have to transmigrate to any one of these forms. So today I am in American body or Indian body, very comfortably situated, but at the time of death my particular mentality will transfer me to a particular type of body. Exactly like if a man infects some contagious disease he has to develop that disease. It is very subtle material laws. So similarly, we are composed of gross body and subtle body. The gross body is made of this earth, water, air, fire, ether, like this. And the subtle body is made of mind, intelligence and ego. And the spirit soul is within that outward gross and subtle bodies. When the gross body is annihilated, the subtle body, mind, carries the soul to a similar body as he was thinking at the time of death. It is, example is given... Just like the flavor of a rose garden is carried by the air or the bad odor of a filthy place is also carried by the air, similarly, mind, intelligence carries me to a particular type of body as I was absorbed in thought at the time of death.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The process is that the spirit soul is invisible in our material eyes, very small. So after the destruction of this gross body, there is another body, subtle body—mind, intelligence and ego. So at the time of death, when finishing this body, mind works. So, according to that process, the mind carries the small spirit soul to another body. Just like the air carries the flavor. Nobody can see wherefrom this rose flavor is coming, but it is being carried by the air, very subtle. You cannot see, but it is being done. Similarly, the soul is very subtle. It is being carried by the mind. According to the mind, he enters into the womb of another mother through the semina of the father, and then he develops a particular type of body given by the mother. It may be human being, it may be cat, dog or anything.
Mike Robinson: So we will come back in another body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, that's when the body is developed, he comes out and his work begins.
Mike Robinson: Are you say that we were perhaps something else before we were born as well? And we keep coming back in something else next time?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Mike Robinson: And how long does this go on?
Prabhupāda: This is going on, this is going on, because you are eternal. According to your work, you are simply changing body. Therefore you should be educated how to stop this business, how to remain in our original, spiritual body. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Prabhupāda: No, he's not ignorant. This body, next body is achieved according to the consciousness. At the time of, if you are thinking of something to which you are very much attached, then you get that similar body. If you are thinking of your pet dog, then you get the dog's body. And if you are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, God, then you'll get the body like Kṛṣṇa. That will be decided at the time of your death. Because at the time of death you'll be absorbed with thinking which you have done throughout the whole life. Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ (BG 8.6). Just like the whole day you are working with some business, at night also dreaming that, subtle body. So you have to train up yourself within this life how to think of Kṛṣṇa. Then there is chance of thinking of Kṛṣṇa at the time of death and go back to home. It is not difficult. Very easy.
Ali: So the ultimate goal is not to come back.
Prabhupāda: No, what is the use of coming here to suffer? Who is happy here? Can you find out anybody who is happy here?
Ali: Not that I've seen.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hari-śauri: Not that he has seen. He's not seen anyone.
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom this Christo came. The Greek word. And the Greek got from India, Kṛṣṇa. This is the history. Christian means Krishnian, godly. And Christo, so far I know, the Greek meaning is "decorated," "love." That indicates to Kṛṣṇa. If there is some scholar he can find out that Christian means Krishnian originally. (reads:) "How the soul transmigrates? The process is very subtle. The spirit soul is invisible to our material eye. It is atomic in size. After the destruction of the gross body, which is made up of the senses, blood, bone, fat, and so forth, the subtle body of mind, intelligence, and ego goes on working. So at the time of death this subtle body carries the small spirit soul to another gross body. The process is just like air carrying a fragrance. Nobody can see where this rose fragrance is coming from, but we know that it is being carried by the air. You cannot see how, but it is being done. Similarly, the process of transmigration of the soul is very subtle. According to the conditions of the mind at the time of death the minute spirit soul enters in the womb of particular mother through the semina of the father. And when the soul develops a particular type of body given by the mother it may be a human being, it may be cat, a dog, or anything." So it is brainwash? Hm?
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Rāmeśvara: He doesn't know what to call this state, so he considers it similar to a spiritual body. But anyway, it appears to be a subtle body. He says that "People find themselves when they're out of their physical bodies, that although they may try to communicate to others, no one seems to hear them, that they are also invisible to others, and that they lack solidity. People were walking..." Here's a description of one man who was in a car accident. "People were walking up from all directions to get to the car accident. As they came by, they wouldn't seem to notice me. They would just keep walking with their eyes straight ahead. As they came very close, I would try to get out of their way, but they would walk right through me."
Prabhupāda: Car accident? He is lying down?
Rāmeśvara: His body is lying down, and somehow he experiences that he has left his body.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is...
Hari-śauri: He's observing the whole scene.
Prabhupāda: Who?
Rāmeśvara: The man. The living being.
Prabhupāda: The man who suffered from the car accident?
Prabhupāda: Now, this, this is fact, that when this body is no more working, the subtle body carries the soul to another gross body. That they cannot see, but it acts. This science they do not know. Seeing is always not competent, material eye. Just like the example is given that flavor is carried by the air. It is being carried, but I cannot see. But it is being carried. That is transmigration of the soul. The soul is carried by the subtle body to another particular body, and according to his karma under superior examination, the soul, a very small particle, one ten-thousandth part of the hair, he is put into the semina of the particular father, and he injects. So the soul takes place in the womb of the mother. She supplies the material to develop the next body. This is the process, transmigration. Then, when the body is complete to come out, then another body works. Another chapter begins: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So this is development.
Rāmeśvara: They have a description of how these people experience communication, talking or hearing. He says, "Hearing can only be called so by analogy." Mostly they say that they do not really hear physical voices or sounds. Rather, they seem to pick up the thoughts of the persons around them. As one woman put it, "I could see people all around, and I could understand what they were saying. I did not hear them audibly, as I am hearing you. It was more like knowing what they were thinking, but only in my mind, not in their actual vocabulary. I would catch it the second before they opened their mouth to speak." Like reading minds.
Prabhupāda: Mind is also material. Up to ether. Beyond that, ether, there is soul.
Prabhupāda: They... It cannot die. There is no question of death. Simply changing the body.
Hari-śauri: But they didn't actually get to the point of transferral to another body.
Rāmeśvara: No. What's being described in this journal is that a man leaves his gross body, and then he exists in a very subtle state.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is subtle body.
Rāmeśvara: And then he goes back to the same gross body.
Prabhupāda: Not exactly the same, but another. This body is useless. By accident he loses. Mutilated, it cannot be accepted.
Rāmeśvara: But somehow they revive him. Somehow he is revived.
Prabhupāda: Revived means the body was in order.
Rāmeśvara: Temporarily he left.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, if the body is too much mutilated, it is impossible.
Rāmeśvara: Yes. This is just those rare cases where it is just like almost mutilated completely, but still, it is revived.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many cases. The asuras who had died, Sukrācārya used to bring them again in life, whose body was not mutilated.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So we're desiring one after, one after, one after, one after... The last desire... Because if you become addicted to certain type of desire, that is prominent at the time of death. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6), sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ. So māyā's machine is immediately prepared. That mind—manaḥ buddhiḥ ahaṅkāra. Subtle. You cannot see. You see the body is burned, finished. Rascal, that is not finished. Na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). It is not finished. There is subtle body. The subtle body carries. The example is just like flavor of rose garden carries, similarly, the desire is carried, and he requires a machine to ride on, particular. So there are eighty-four million machines, and he's, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1), by the supervision of māyā, carried to this mother's womb. The soul is injected through the semina of the father, and he enters the womb of the mother, and mother gives the ingredients, develops his body, and as soon as it is complete, comes out. Where is the difficulty to understand this transmigration of the soul? These rascals have no brain. That verse I have explained this morning.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has given all knowledge. Actually nobody has tried to present Bhagavad-gītā like this. That's a fact. And it is acting. (laughs) Now it is acting. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante... (BG 7.15). Make your defense measure consulting all these books, everything. Transmigration, in the morning I...?
Satsvarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Explain.
Satsvarūpa: You explained that whatever a person is thinking, that's his desire. At the time of death the desire is very prominent, so he takes a body according to that desire. And then you described exactly how it happens, that the subtle body carries the soul, just like the air carries the aroma of the flower into the semina of the man to the woman who supplies the ingredients, and the body comes out. In this way he travels from one body to another.
Hari-śauri: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
Prabhupāda: It is condemned. My position is different. Why shall I die? The rascals, they agree to die. We do not agree to die. We want to come to our original position, no more death. This is our motto, because we get information from the Bhagavad-gītā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). I do not die on account of my material body mixed up... "Dust thou art; dust thou beist." This body is made of five elements: earth, water, air, fire, ether. And this is my gross body. The gross body is finished, but my mental, subtle body—mind, intelligence—that is not yet finished. That is carrying me to another body. Just like we have got practical experience. I am sitting here, you are sitting here. Mind carries me to New York, and I am now dreaming or thinking I am sitting in that room and talking with somebody. I have forgotten this, but... It is practical. Although I am sitting here, I have forgotten it, and I am working, thinking myself that I am in New York. Similarly, in dream my body is on the bed. I am thinking I am on the Himalayan top. So as it is possible even in this body, similarly, I get another body, gross body. Then I forget this body. This is transmigration. I have explained it. This is the factual. Everyone can experience. I have got a period of remaining in this body. So as soon as this period is finished I get..., I create another body and enter it. And because the period is not finished, although in dream I am getting another body and going to the Himalaya, top, or I'm going to my New York apartment, still, I have to come back because period is not finished. Simple thing. This is transmigration. Why I shall be put into this condition because my original position is eternal? Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). That we are teaching to the whole world: "Why you are suffering with this body? Get out of the body." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
| Page Title: | Subtle body (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 23 of Sep, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=45, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 45 |