Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that "We have no independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto..." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independent, so-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have...? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. (break) ...clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate: (BG 3.27)
Something like... (Conversations 1976 - 1977)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. What is the use of such education?
Indian man: So your education which you gave may be something like..., not like that.
Prabhupāda: Education means to do the right thing, not the wrong thing. That is education. Education means enlightenment, to know what is right, what is wrong. That is education.
Harikeśa: It's 7:15 Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: It's 7:15.
Jayapatāka: (break) ...twenty years, they've never swept the street.
Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand?
Jayapatāka: Something like that. "Are sweeping the street." But only a few thousand of that are actually doing it. There's a big scandal.
Prabhupāda: Dishonest. They are producing only dishonest men. (break) ...get a boat like this? No.
Jayapatāka: Not a dinghy. This is bigger than.... The dinghy is not suitable for rough water.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How big is your boat? As big as that...
Jayapatāka: Forty feet. (break) ...boats in the back about two-thirds that size.
Prabhupāda: So we are not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, neither like Prabhupāda, and we shall have to learn to tolerate. (Bengali) It is clearly written in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta that kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe kṛṣṇa nāma pracāraṇa. Even they have no common sense, what can be done? No, no, this formula, that this is something new in the history of the world, and still they are jealous, what is this? They are finding fault. In Vṛndāvana, Nṛsiṁha-vallabha Gosvāmī, you know? He comes to me. He says, "So many people are jealous upon you." I say that first of all you create something like me. Then you become jealous. (Bengali) First of all let them become like me. Then.... (Bengali) The superior, he will dictate. And yei, equal, they will live like friends. And those who are junior, they should follow and obey. This is the Vaiṣṇava niyama. So those who are neither equal nor higher, how they can dictate? That is their mistake. Either first of all become higher than him—then you dictate—or you be equal with him—then you suggest.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Indian man: They are doing in Haryana and Punjab. They have taken all the land. And there are many big, big gurguras. They have a land hundred acres, fifty acres, something like that. So they have given them.
Prabhupāda: So without government award it will be risky. They can take away.
Indian man: Ten bīghās she extracts.
Prabhupāda: But who is working as farmer? Who is working as farmer? The government is eager to give them land, but who is working? Nobody is working. They are going to the factory. Even whatever land is still available, they are not being worked out.
Prabhupāda: Yes, projector is necessary.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Projector would be big preaching. Our money comes from, for preaching program. There is already a fund for land purchase, whereas there is no such fund for something like this.
Prabhupāda: So it can be purchased...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cost, they say.... It costs today.... A 16 millimeter projector with sound is about ten thousand rupees, new. I have a projector in America but I don't know.... I'm going to bring it, anyway, but it's not at all new. I'm not even sure...
Prabhupāda: So why new? Old is no useful?
Prabhupāda: That everyone says. That is not...
Bhavānanda: We have to build this temple because...
Prabhupāda: So make something like American which is wonderful for the world. So you are Americans. You must do something.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we build this temple with escalators and the people go in the temple and they go up the escalator...
Harikeśa: They'll never come back.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do you think that they're going to then go down the road to go into Śrī Caitanya Maṭha? Why would... What is the point of it after doing something like that? They'll never go.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I became a guest. A gentleman was our tenant, and he gave me introduction letter to his brother-in-law. He was a pleader in Jagannātha Purī. So he received me very well. So he offered me a lunch, and I saw there was something, a small ball-like, in the pot, bowl. So I asked, "What is this?" He said, "It is meat." (laughs) He was eating meat, so he thought it is good reception, the guest is offered nice meat. So I said, "No, you... I never took meat. I never expected..." (break) Then "Never mind." Then I stopped eating there. At that time I was a boy. After appearing in my B.A. examination there was holiday, so I went to Jagannātha Purī in 1920 or something like that. So I was married in 1918. So some of the friends of my wife, they said that "Your husband now gone. He is not coming back." So after returning I understood she was crying. (laughs) So anyway, then I used to purchase prasādam in the market. They were bringing, and I was eating. I stayed for three, four days. That's all.
Acyutānanda: ...when they do something for their sense gratification, but to sacrifice—"Oh, Kṛṣṇa has to tell me. Kṛṣṇa wills it." Then they don't... They say, "Why did Kṛṣṇa create evil?" Then there is a very peculiar question that comes sometimes: "If Kṛṣṇa knows that we were going to fall down, why didn't He save us?" or something like that.
Prabhupāda: He's saving you.
Sudāmā: In the West, that is a very popular question.
Prabhupāda: He's saving.
Sudāmā: Why didn't...
Prabhupāda: He's asking that "You... I'll save you. You surrender to Me."
Prabhupāda: Fifty-three?
Jayapatākā: Yes, I don't..., he..., fifty-three, know why.
Prabhupāda: How many avatāras are there mentioned in the Bhāgavata?
Hari-śauri: About twenty-six or something like that.
Jayapatākā: Twenty-five, twenty-six.
Hari-śauri: Twenty-five or twenty-six. And then all the Viṣṇu expansions.
Jayapatākā: They needed twenty-four Viṣṇu expansions and then the incarnations in the Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: Twenty-six? That is Vaikuṇṭha. Anyway... (break) Yes, planetarium...
Devotee (4): Temple and planetarium.
Pañca-draviḍa: It's more than that, probably.
Madhudviṣa: So the criminal is very much encouraged, because he has only one chance in ten of getting caught whether he robs a bank or steals or rapes or something like that.
Prabhupāda: But for this purpose they are maintaining huge police force, and you are earning money and tax, that's all.
Rāmeśvara: The police all accept bribes.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Rāmeśvara: They all accept bribes or they do some illegal business themselves with the criminals they capture.
Pañca-draviḍa: Eight years. But the thing is, it's difficult for them to assume or take part in Hong Kong because it represents something like several million capitalists, which they have no use for in their country. For thirty years they've been training people in Communism. Their whole culture is centered around that Chinese language. Our books are in English, but their whole culture is...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Our Chinese Gītā is coming out. It should be ready in two weeks.
Prabhupāda: It is not our policy that the whole country will be on our side. That is not.... At least some of them may be interested. That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yaśodānandana Mahārāja says that the Chinese Bhagavad-gītā is ready for publication.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's at the printer. It will be ready in two weeks.
Revatīnandana: Another interesting thing about China is because they have such a huge population, in order to feed the population they've had to turn to production of agricultural products rather than meat.
Prabhupāda: The government can. (break)
Pañcadraviḍa: ...go to beg rice or something, like we were doing for a food program, all the people slam the door in your face. (break)
Pañcadraviḍa: ...went to America, what was your idea of what would be your program when you got there?
Prabhupāda: This idea: I shall speak to don't eat meat, and they'll immediately kick me out. (laughter) That was my program. And I was going to say that "Don't eat meat. No illicit sex," and immediately they will kick me out. "All right." I never thought that you would accept it. That is the idea of my poetry. That is sung, no? You have got that?
Prabhupāda: No, there are many. There are many. Now, you see, near Delhi there is Modi Nagar. That Mr. Modi was not very educated man, but how he has developed?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He is employing something like fifty thousand people.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) Mr. Modi near Delhi.
Dr. Patel: Modinagarawala.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is employing fifty thousand people, without any education.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We had a very big program in Modinagara.
Prabhupāda: His wife received us very nicely.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is sometimes put forward that not everyone will be able to embrace Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully. Therefore it may be better for them to accept some portion, like, for example, taking up vegetarianism or even doing haṭha-yoga, or something like this is better than nothing.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not very essential. Essential is how to think of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. He doesn't say that you become vegetarian.
Dr. Patel: That said, tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara: "You must do everything for Him, even eating."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is vegetarianism.
Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā. Dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi, "Sex life which is not against religious principles, I am that." Not that sex life, as soon as you like, sex. That is not gṛhastha. That is gṛhamedhī. Dharmāviruddha. Dharma-aviruddha means simply for begetting nice child you can have..., not for enjoyment. Putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. This is Vedic principle. Putraḥ-piṇḍa-prayojanam. A bhāryā, wife, is accepted only for having son. Not for any other purpose. Putraḥ-piṇḍa-prayojanam. This is material side, but still, it is religious. First education is brahmacārī, how to train him to avoid sex life. And still if he's not able, then he is allowed to become a gṛhastha, a little concession. Otherwise, the whole Vedic civilization is: how to avoid sex life. Brahmacārī—no sex life. Vānaprastha—no sex life. Sannyāsa—no sex life. Only gṛhastha, under control. That is gṛhastha. Gṛhastha does not mean one who is doing everything whimsically on account of getting this concession. He's not gṛhastha, he's gṛhamedhī. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). Śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam... (SB 2.1.2). Gṛhamedhī means he does not know what is spiritual life. That is gṛhamedhī. And gṛhastha means he knows what is spiritual life, and he lives on that status. That is gṛhastha. Gṛhamedhī's definition is.... Everything is there in the śāstra. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam. They do not know what is the aim of life. It is like something, something like cats and dogs. They do not know. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam (SB 2.1.2). (break) So he'll speak to you. You know English, you can read books.
Prabhupāda: Sadaputa. He has said nicely that "They depend on chance. We depend on God." That's all. (break) Some dress? No, bird (indistinct)
Devotee (2): No, they have some bathing trunks on.
Hari-śauri: Sometimes they wear like a rubber suit. Something like the scales of a fish. It keeps them.... (laughing)
Devotee (2): Aldous Huxley liked to think of the idea that there's no controller, so that he could enjoy without the feeling of guilt.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the whole idea. Thieves and rogues, they think "If there's no government, then we can do whatever we like." Who is there of the thieves and rogues?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When people ask me, "How many members do you have, how many people?" I don't answer any more "Five thousand," or something like that. Now I tell them many millions. Because the thing is when they ask, when you ask someone how many Christians are there in America, of such and such sect, they don't mean priests, they mean also the people who are coming.
Rāmeśvara: Congregation.
Prabhupāda: Congregation.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we should give that number, not as five thousand, but as so and so many millions.
Prabhupāda: That I say, when people ask me that how many followers you have got in India.... They're wholesale.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole country.
Rāmeśvara: The whole country. Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Practical and purified by the activity. Have you noticed that? That these people who are engaged, they're all in the Press, or all day writing, or something like this.
Rāmeśvara: Sometimes sitting and painting.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sitting and painting. The boy who's going out every day, trying to think of how to get the books out, he won't be.... (conversation in background) You have come to the hellish planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to deliver us. That's all there is. It's amazing enough you have made such a gigantic movement, but the fact that you have made it with such mlecchas as us is what is most astounding. It's like building a skyscraper with swabs and straw. Building a big skyscraper with straw and mud.
Rāmeśvara: In the Fifth Canto, you've quoted from Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura that the most sacred place in the whole universe is Śrī Māyāpura-dhāma.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The changing.... When the child is born dead, why he does not grow? (laughter) Therefore they are rascals.
Mahātmā: There was one boy in Berkeley, and he worked for a company that would record facts and figures, and he said every year the Navy would pay this company something like sixty thousand dollars and would give them their theories that they knew were wrong, and this company would supply false facts and figures to coincide with the theories—make up facts that would support their false theories.
Prabhupāda: What is that false theory?
Hṛdayānanda: They want to take money, so they say "We need so many things, you have to give us money from the government to buy new weapons," this, that, so they make up false things for money.
Prabhupāda: Befool.
Prabhupāda: P-form sanctioned by the state government, yes, state government. So it was applied for. It was... No sanction was coming. Then I went to the State Bank of India, the officer Mr. Bhattacari. So he told me: "Swamiji, you are sponsored by private man. So we cannot accept it. If you are invited by some institution, then we could consider, but you are invited by a private man for one month, and, after one month, if you are in difficulty, and there will be so much obstacles and so on." "Well, I have already prepared everything to go." So I said that "You, what you have done?" "No, I have decided not to sanction your P-form." "No, no, don't do this. You better send to your superior. It should not be done like that." So he took my request and he sent the file to Chief Officer of Foreign Exchange, something like that. Anyway, he is the supreme man in the State Bank of India. So I went to see him. So I asked his secretary that "You have got such file? You kindly put to Mr...."—his name was Mr. Rao—"I want to see him." So the secretary agreed, and he put the file and put my slip that I wanted to see him. I was waiting. So Mr. Rao came personally. He said, "Swamiji, I have passed your case. Don't worry." (laughs) In this way.
Arnold Weiss: God, of course, has put this entire human life picture together, and we, of course, cannot really understand His motives or reasons for this. But if there was some understanding that could be imparted to us... Is there? I ask the question, "Is there any understanding that can be imparted to us, to understand some of His motives for this?" Because it seems to me that we suffer a great deal to be able to turn towards Him, and yet in the Bhagavad-gītā He says something like "One million will seek Me, but only one out of that million will find Me."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Arnold Weiss: So your chances are very, very little, and God, of course, understands this.
Rāmeśvara: This is nearby. (break) Today, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the biggest magazine in the West United States is coming to try to get your interview at 10 o'clock, 10:30 this morning, something like that. It's called Los Angeles Magazine. It's for the West United States.
Prabhupāda: (break) And if we don't believe that they have gone to moon planet, they will reject us. They will immediately take as "Oh, these people are crazy." Even if you give sufficient reason or argument, they will not take it. That is their obstinacy.
Rāmeśvara: They're convinced by the photographs.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? That's nice.
Jayādvaita: The only place I found some difficulty is that sometimes if there is some discrepancy in behavior of our students, some petty stealing or something like that, then that is...
Prabhupāda: That you have to train our men so that they may be well behaved.
Jayādvaita: In Laguna Beach we had so many complaints, that they were trying to stop the temple. And their main complaint was that the devotees were taking flowers from people's gardens and without any permission, without any, simply taking. And just on that account they wanted to stop us. Some petty stealing, fifty dollars worth of flowers.
Prabhupāda: Birds of the same feather flock together. (laughter)
Jayādvaita: By Ann Arbor temple there is one squirrel who comes to take prasāda from the devotees. He comes right up to them and takes some laḍḍu or something like that. Very fat squirrel.
Prabhupāda: He knows that they'll not harm.
Jayādvaita: Yes.
Mādhavānanda: The neighbors say that every morning the peacocks wake them up.
Passerby on a boat: Ahoy there!
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Hare Kṛṣṇa!
Mādhavānanda: What does ahoy mean?
Prabhupāda: Let us try honestly, that's all.
Hari-śauri: As long as we can preach very purely, then the effect will be there.
Prabhupāda: So by this time, we shall be in Toronto tomorrow.
Hari-śauri: Yes. 5:45 the plane leaves. So we'll be there by 6;00, 6:40, something like that. They don't have a garden there, though.
Prabhupāda: Time difference the same? No time difference?
Hari-śauri: I don't think so. Oh, we'll have to go through customs though. It's Canada, so we have to travel through customs.
Prabhupāda: We require passport? Visa? You've got?
Prabhupāda: ...wrong yesterday?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, you were right on the mark Prabhupāda, always. The old man, the other night, when you said that, he said, "This is something like elitism."
Prabhupāda: Elitism? What is that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They think it's only for a certain section of people.
Prabhupāda: Gentlemen class. Without first-class man, what is the use of second-class, third-class men. They will ever remain in the darkness.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Christians have a tendency to disbelieve that man can lead man back to God. They think that Christ, or God comes, and then, like this. It doesn't matter what quality of men they are.
Prabhupāda: Now one thing is, that he has given service for the benefit of the society. Very tangible service. He can be in charge of book distribution.
Jagadīśa: Mādhavānanda.
Hari-śauri: Yes, that would be good, if they were co-managers or something like that.
Jagadīśa: Govardhana president?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? You should recognize his service. He induced persons to do some.... That you cannot neglect. (break) Paper men coming?
Hari-śauri: Yes, Jayādvaita's going to talk to them a little first, give them prasāda, just explain the basics of the movement so that they, you know, they may be a little favorable.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee (1): A lynx, a small cat.
Kīrtanānanda: Something like a little wildcat.
Prabhupāda: They eat, they're eaten by the fox?
Kīrtanānanda: They'll eat the fox. They're very rare though.
Prabhupāda: Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam.
Prabhupāda: Potato?
Kīrtanānanda: Potato, broccoli,
Prabhupāda: Broccoli? What is that?
Kīrtanānanda: It is something like cauliflower.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's that green vegetable, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that's like cauliflower.
Prabhupāda: Cabbage?
Kīrtanānanda: Cabbage, peppers.
Prabhupāda: That is nice, so many. Tomato.
Kīrtanānanda: But most things are not yet fructified. This is early in our season. Peas will be ready just shortly. Lettuce is ready.
Prabhupāda: As you can afford. Minimum one cart. Otherwise, three carts. In India the Ratha-yātrā festival is going on, according to rough estimate, for the last two thousand years, and the crowd never diminishes. One secretary of Parliament or something like that.
Hari-śauri: Śrī R. Subramanyam, M.A., Deputy Director Research, Lok Sabha Secretariat, National Parliament, New Delhi. Should I read it? "A strange feature of the modern world is that in spite of vast advances in science and technology and the establishment of a good number of institutions for human welfare, mankind has not found true peace and happiness. Knowledge of material sciences and arts has increased tremendously in recent times, and millions of volumes on each fill the libraries the world over.
Prabhupāda: Not that everything we have to do. No. That will deteriorate. Those who are doing, let it be done by them.
Hari-śauri: It seems like it will be a long time before we can implement something like that.
Prabhupāda: I am proposing, think over it. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical.
Prabhupāda: And people, leaders of India, they are thinking, "Where is this Vedantist?" In foreign countries, what is their position?
Hari-śauri: Somehow or other, they seem to think that the Vedānta is something better than any of the other śāstra. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam doesn't seem to be so popular in India as Vedānta or something like that.
Prabhupāda: It is very popular amongst the Māyāvāda people. You speak also... Now the so-called Vedantists they are speaking on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, distorting. Akhoyananda, Akandananda, Karpatri(?), the rascals. Because they have no subject matter to speak, they are distorting the meaning of Bhāgavata. This boy appears to be nice, this fat boy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kīrtanānanda said he's the only local boy who has taken interest. He's from hereabouts.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) At daytime, witch, and nighttime, tigress. This is her picture. But people know it, and still, they keep one tigress at home. Duniya sab barakhobe gara gara bhag(?)... So that lady spider and lord spider, that is everywhere. But here gradually, and they are immediately. That is the difference. The process is the same. People want to enjoy by sex, by seminal discharge, but what is this? His blood. By fifteen drops of blood, or something like that, one drop of semina is created.
Rūpānuga: Forty drops of blood, one drop of semina.
Prabhupāda: Forty drops. Yes. So one ounce of semina discharge means forty ounce of blood sucked. This is a fact. So he is enjoying his own blood, and he's thinking "I am enjoying." Therefore he's compared with the camel. Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. Camel eats the thorny twigs, and the thorns pricks the tongue and blood comes out. So after twig is mixed with blood, it becomes tasteful, and he thinks thorn is very nice. (laughs) So thorn is not nice; nice is his blood, own blood. But he, because he's animal, he's thinking it is very nice.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That... Prabhupāda said that rice can give scorpions? Something like that, scorpion comes out of rice.
Prabhupāda: Yes, taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya. Taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Where is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it in...?
Prabhupāda: In the Nyāya-śāstra, it is there. Taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya. Taṇḍula means rice, and vṛścika means scorpion. The scorpion coming out of the heaps of rice, so therefore rice is producing scorpion. This logic is wrong.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, so but people then believed like that. So Pasteur, actually he believed strongly in God, and he wanted to disprove that theory, and, in fact, he got prize for doing this experiment from a French academy and, during that year... This flask contains sugar solution and with some yeast to ferment at the beginning. But now the experiment was to completely kill any germs inside the flask by heating, in the beginning, and then cool it down automatically and to keep for some time, about two or three days...
Prabhupāda: Therefore He is God. He's not dog like you, barking only and doing nothing. (Prabhupāda knocks on table or flooring) What is this stone?
Hari-śauri: Marble. It's a type of Italian marble, I think. They call it terrazzo. Something like that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very soft underneath.
Hari-śauri: They often put this on the facings of buildings, big buildings.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Comes off on the fingers, very soft stone.
Hari-śauri: In Detroit temple, that stairway that goes up, this is the same marble, marble steps.
Prabhupāda: Move this.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only a handful they had, something like sixty people. They spent two...
Prabhupāda: And what culture they'll speak? (Hindi) They can speak, "Milk is dangerous and meat is very nutritious. Kill all the cows. Oh yes, it's very scientific." This is the cult(?). "Milk is dangerous." Is it not?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they're saying that, the doctors nowadays.
Rūpānuga: It's true.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I remember one day you retorted that. You said that "Milk is nothing but the blood of the cow transformed. And (sarcastically:) the milk is bad but the blood is good?
Prabhupāda: Everyone is thinking that "I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the difference between the mentalities?
Dr. Sukla: Of course, both, perhaps, are victim of some kind of illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is illusion. That we are trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," or...
Dr. Sukla: Then, perhaps, there is no difference.
Mr. Deyani: So many, when we go to our offices, since we come from India, naturally the very intelligent young boys and girls, they ask various questions to us. And just for the sake of their curiosity, naturally they ask the question about the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we try to explain our ways, whatever we know. What explanation we have got when they put the example of, you know, that sixteen-year-old guru and something like that kind of things? What explanation we have got in that circumstance. In that circumstance, what explanation we have got as an individual for the Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This young boy guru, when they bring up this subject matter to the Indians who have come from India who are working here in America, they feel a little embarrassed, loss for words or explanation what to say, that this is their Indian culture, they feel they don't know how to represent themselves.
Mr. Deyani: How to represent the Kṛṣṇa consciousness? This is my question. How to represent it? What to say to them?
Prabhupāda: What is your question? That means you do not know about him.
Mr. Deyani: I even don't know who is he. (laughter) To tell you the truth, I even don't know. (laughter) My wife, she sometimes, why she watch him on the television. There was a program or something like that, that now we, I don't watch that anymore.
Prabhupāda: It is not important.
Guest (2): Swamiji, you just said about the guru, in the Bhagavad-gītā, again after He is explaining to Arjuna all what He said, then ultimately he comes and he says—which the problem in our practical life comes which I see, I see it with me—he spoke very frankly, cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham (BG 6.34).
Prabhupāda: What is your question?
Vipina: I was talking to Dr. Diksha and I was explaining to him that if he was unable to chant or to become a full-time devotee, that your program for a person in that condition of life, was something like Life Membership Program, whereby he could become a member of the Society, maintain his occupational duty, but become a member and take books and read and try to understand gradually that way. Is that satisfactory, if they can do that much, that would be, some way they would be serving Kṛṣṇa to your satisfaction? (Prabhupāda laughs)
Prabhupāda: Yes, we are taking so much labor in writing books. If somebody reads, certainly that is satisfaction. (laughter)
Rūpānuga: It is to their benefit, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if they read.
Prabhupāda: So, guessing?
Yadubara: Oh, I don't know, two hundred fifty feet? Something like that. Three hundred?
Rūpānuga: That's too big, three hundred. The Washington monument is five hundred fifty feet.
Prabhupāda: Then it is all right.
Yadubara: Maybe two hundred.
Rūpānuga: Maybe a hundred seventy-five. We can check reference book easily. You'll find out today.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is one, some sort of a mental satisfaction. When we work something we thought that by doing this I'll be able to come to a conclusion. But by the same research, by the same result, I found that what I thought was wrong, so from that, that satisfaction is there, so that must be true. Something like that.
Prabhupāda: Here is one, that Sukla, he is also favorable.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, he's a very nice man. I never saw any Indian like that.
Devotee (2): He's favorable, but he won't come to the temple.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. But he has got sympathy.
Devotee (2): Yes, he's very nice, sympathetic. But he didn't come to help us at all. And we approached him for life member, he said he would, but then he never did.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Prabhupāda: You should not be so proud falsely. That is our point. And mislead others that there is no God. Because you are accepted as authority, scientist, if you say that there is no God, they will accept it. Then our back to Godhead movement is stopped. Then we must stop your also nonsense. It is a fight. Because you say there is no God, and we say you are all nonsense. We must say it. You are challenging, we must challenge. But you accept God, then we have nothing... I think Sir Isaac Newton said like that: "The vast knowledge, we have simply gathered a few grains of sand on the beach of knowledge," something like that. That is good.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, humble.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. From Bhaktivedanta publisher. Yes, that's all right. Can do something like that, there is no harm. But this world is a problem, but we want solution of the problem but we do not know how to solve it. Is it not? Do the scientists know?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are trying. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Not a single problem they have solved. Can you cite that this big problem they have solved?
Rūpānuga: In fact you have said that they are creating a new problem each time.
Prabhupāda: But artificially means that you accept the principle. So therefore we say that here is mother, land, and here is children, the plants, trees, birds, beasts, human beings. They are all coming from the earth. So mother is there, and the children are there. Then where is the father? You cannot say, "No, without father it has come." That is not possible. Then you are talking foolish. There must be father. This is conclusion. So how you can deny God? God is accepted in every religion as the supreme father or something like that, great. And God is there. But they say "Automatically coming" and big, big words. How do they explain? How things are coming from the earth, so many plants?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is by chance.
Bali-mardana: Fifty-ninth Street.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a good location. This building is for sale.
Prabhupāda: This is that Vedic om or something like that?
Hari-śauri: I think so. It says "Om eternal."
Bali-mardana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The om word is used in English?
Bali-mardana: Om is very popular in English language for a long time. When they think of mystical things, they think of om. The English, originally because they were in India, they thought to imitate some Indian words.
Prabhupāda: Many Indian words have been introduced in dictionary. And many English words is also introduced. That is natural. (break)
Bali-mardana: ...introduced Kṛṣṇa in the Western world.
Prabhupāda: No, it was in the dictionary.
Prabhupāda: What is the usual price?
Devotee (5): $7.95 which would be like too many, eighty rupees or something like that. It would be very expensive for India for one volume.
Prabhupāda: So you have reduced the price?
Devotee (5): To forty-five rupees. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa made it very, very reasonable for them that they can partake.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. They are taking the book. That is wanted. We don't want much profit.
Devotee (5): Many, many reviewers also from those big Sanskrits, the largest in the world (indistinct) professors here they also read the reviews and very much appreciate the books. All of the different parts we visited, from north to south, east to west.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But our people are all free from all that drug disease.
Rāmeśvara: He is saying that he has simply met devotees at airports and other places where they approach him to maybe ask for some contribution, to see if he's interested, and they say that they are representing some drug center, something like that. So what's the question?
Interviewer: Well, and they think how to sell literature and... Is that the way to God consciousness, by selling and soliciting? Is that...?
Prabhupāda: No, no, if you are...
Interviewer: How does that fit in?
Prabhupāda: If you are God conscious, naturally you give up all intoxication habit.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A few. But no place is perfect within the material world. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the fourth floor we're going to have doll projects. Doll exhibits. So there's an open balcony up there and I want to do something like that, see up there with the glass, the balcony?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I want to do that. Because there's an open balcony right on the street side, enclose it with glass, it would be very popular. After going to see the doll exhibits people can sit there comfortably take, you know, rest on the bench. And it can be seen from outside so it will be indirectly an advertisement. You'll see that there are people sitting there. (break)
Rāmeśvara: ...artists that work on your books, they have to train many devotees to paint because one day in all the government buildings there will be paintings of Kṛṣṇa. Just like now they have all these paintings of so-called...
Prabhupāda: No, no, they wanted to compromise with the Westerners. They did not come to teach, but they wanted to be victimized by the Western people. They had no strength to save themselves. They have no strength. They have no determination. Hodgepodge, that's all. Therefore it was not successful. Not a single man became Kṛṣṇa conscious. Even nowadays. Now Vivekananda is famous in India that "He preached in America, all Americans have become Vedantists," something like that. Now, practically, you have gone in Vṛndāvana?
Interviewer: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Recently?
Interviewer: No, not recently.
Gurudāsa: No, day before, night before.
George Harrison: Do they bring food as well?
Gurudāsa: They bring grains or something like that.
Prabhupāda: We had a very gorgeous Ratha-yātrā ceremony in New York last Sunday.
George Harrison: Hm?
Prabhupāda: Sunday, eighteenth.
Pusta Kṛṣṇa: A week ago yesterday.
Prabhupāda: Give...
Mike Robinson: And you're basically just concerned to tell them that there's a spiritual dimension to life. And if they then were to find that spiritual dimension in something like the Anglican Church, that would not worry you.
Prabhupāda: I do not know what is Anglican Church...
Mike Robinson: Sorry, the English Church.
Prabhupāda: ...but we are concerned with the educational propaganda, that "You are not this body. Body is your covering, shirt and coat. Within the body you are living, and as you are spirit soul, you have got so many things to know."
Mike Robinson: Sorry, could I just change the tape? Perhaps if we can pick up where we were, if you could just carry on. Perhaps if I can carry on from where I was, that what I'm trying to understand is the difference it makes, a person being a member...
Prabhupāda: You try to understand this, that as you have got experience of change of body.... Have you got or not?
Mike Robinson: Oh, I see. So if I gain Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I wouldn't have to have the threat of coming back as a dog or something like that.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Mike Robinson: Can you tell...
Prabhupāda: Read that, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9).
Harikeśa:
- janma karma ca me divyam
- evam yo vetti tattvataḥ
- tyaktva dehaṁ punar janma
- naiti mām eti so 'rjuna
- (BG 4.9)
"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."
Hari-śauri: Well, we have one or two places that are just developing, like Miami.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Hari-śauri: That's fifteen, fifteen acres? Something like that. No, more.
Prabhupāda: Miami climate is like this.
Hari-śauri: Oh, very nice. They have a mango orchard.
Prabhupāda: Oh, also coconut.
Hari-śauri: Oh, yes, very good dobs there. Detroit was also very nice.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Detroit. (break) ...Mālatī?
Bhagavān: Mālatī? She was there.
Prabhupāda: The idea is, suppose I am in France. I do not know French language, but there is fire in my room, and I have to call my neighbors. So somehow or other I call and take their help. (laughter)
Yogeśvara: Professor Chenique wishes to know whether we cannot do one very small pocketbook edition that will sell very inexpensively. Something like I think in India they have done.
Hari-śauri: Like the abridged version in America they did?
Yogeśvara: No, something like this, very small.
Prabhupāda: I have no objection. It is nice proposal.
Hari-śauri: Like that Chinese one? First six chapters.
Prabhupāda: Where is that Chinese?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The rent now it is twelve hundred dollars. But of course everything is now much more expensive. So I was negotiating in New York for better arrangements, because in Iran price is going up and up and up. And I told my company that they should buy one house. And they have agreed. So there is going to be that house, we will buy something like this for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: This is very nice.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And also we have saved some money, we'll buy a temple also in addition to that.
Prabhupāda: No, this is very nice. Dayānanda, do you like it?
Dayānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is very nice place, private, everything is so nice. In winter, what is the temperature?
Peter: Yes. (pause)
Prabhupāda: It is something like gum? (?)
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Does it require change? No.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Change? Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, I have got it filled in my (indistinct).
Atreya Ṛṣi: No, it's finished. After a while. Just twenty minutes.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Then I shall (indistinct). Dependence for twenty minutes. That is my dependence, for twenty minutes or twenty years or twenty millions of years. There are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty minutes. And there are many animals, they depend on the body for twenty years. And there are many animals who depend on the body for twenty millions of years. It is a question of proportion. But actually the spirit soul is not dependent on any type of body twenty minutes or twenty years and twenty millions of years. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Find out this.
Prabhupāda: Why you are spoiling your nails? It may come to a boil and then you'll understand. It is very dangerous habit. If there is little (indistinct) then it will become a boil.
Pradyumna: Jñānagamya said that on Mars they found something like a crater with a house. Looked like a... Or a bombed-out thing. This Jñānagamya was working with a, he works with some information service, U.S. Information Service. So he was in charge of designing something here for Fourth of July. Some program. So he got this information from this U.S. Information Service which generally..., sometimes it isn't made public. It's just in their U.S. service. They'd seen some kind of a crater with...
Parivrājakācārya: Roads in it as well.
Pradyumna: Yes, something with roads in it or something.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Harikeśa: I can't live on a farm.
Prabhupāda: That does not make you, what is called, unfit. You can do something like that.
Harikeśa: I mean I was born in a city, raised in a city, and feel very good when I'm in a city, but when I'm on a farm, I'm very disturbed.
Prabhupāda: Rājasika, you have got rājasika. So that means your mode of nature is rājasika. There are three kinds of-sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika.
Harikeśa: But what are we going to do with all these kind of people?
Prabhupāda: That is already there, three kinds of propensities. Sāttvika, rājasika, tāmasika. So you belong to the rājasika, that's all. So it can be conquered by sāttvika.
Prabhupāda: Fifty percent for expanding temples and fifty percent for reprinting books.
Interviewer (4): Do you have any other source, like donations or something like that for your movement?
Prabhupāda: Very small. Mostly we have got a few cases of donation of land and house. Not very large sum or money, never.
Interviewer (4): But I thought Henry Ford has given some... I thought the Ford family has given some huge donation.
Prabhupāda: Ford, he has given us two, three houses, not donation. But we have purchased two, three houses by the money of Mr. Ford, Alfred Ford, he's my disciple.
Krishna Modi: No. Yesterday. Because yesterday I was to come here. But I was called by Mr. Brahmānanda and he told me that you have come here (indistinct) so that I want to know something (indistinct). One question was put up in Rājya-sabhā and he's (indistinct) there. I told him that he's full of (indistinct). There are some gentlemen of er..., labor minister and from (indistinct) Andhra Pradesh. They were also there. (indistinct) Mr. D. D. Desai is also there. (indistinct) And we have discussed at length. And we have told them and there is no restriction (indistinct) the size and to everybody. And you see then it is in Indian history, it is first time that something has been done. All people are saying that they have done in America, they have done in so many centers all over the world and then we are, something like that, it is shameful.
Prabhupāda: It is Indian culture.
Prabhupāda: And he was old. So he had to agree. Otherwise, the whole thing was catastrophe. So the king said, "Yes. She's not married. If you like I can offer my daughter to you." Then everything was settled up. But the daughter was young, and he was like her grand, great-grandfather. Match was not at all suitable, but he had to offer. So this girl also took it seriously, and she was serving the old husband very faithfully like honest, chaste wife. Never mind. Then, some days after, the same saintly person was visited by two heavenly physicians, aśvinī-kumāras. The aśvinī-kumāras, they had some difficulty. They were not allowed in the society of the demigods while drinking soma-rasa. They had some defects, something like that. So when the physician came to see Cyavana Muni he said that "If you can give me young age, beautiful, you can make me by your treatment beautiful young man, which is very pleasing to young girls, then I shall give you the facility of drinking soma-rasa in the society of demigods." "Yes." So he made him very nice beautiful-looking young man by taking him to a certain lake, and they dipped down and all of them became fresh young men, beautiful, very beautiful. So his chaste wife, she could not recognize, "Who is my husband?" They look all very beautiful young men.
Prabhupāda: But He never claimed that "I am avatāra." But we understand from the śāstric evidence. He never claimed. Rather when He was addressed as Kṛṣṇa He blocked His ears, "You don't say like that." He never claimed. He fully displayed Himself as a devotee. Not Bhagavān. Therefore Gaurāṅgavāda is illegal. Gaurāṅga-nāgarī. That is illegal. Moha-vāda or something like that.
Pradyumna: Gaurāṅga-nāgarī, mentioning Lord Caitanya in the role of Kṛṣṇa dancing with the...
Prabhupāda: In this way, find out the faulty statement and give him proof. He can claim... Hm.
Pradyumna: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
Prabhupāda: No encouragement. They are simply staying somehow or other in their original culture, but there is no encouragement by the leaders. But the leaders have lost. This is the position. Just like Jawaharlal Nehru, he was a complete rascal about Indian culture. He did not think that Indian culture has any value. Therefore he wrote the book, "Discovery of India." You know that? He has... It is little popular. "Discovery of India." So long India was not discovered by opiate or something like, as the Russians say. Now it is now discovered. And that its leaders have to become Anglicized or Europeanized. Industry, the Western way of living, eating, and everything. Pollution. Everything.
Prabhupāda: One boy, he was coming to me. In that hundred, about one hundred seventy-first street, all my things were stolen. My tape recorder, typewriter. Fortunately they did not touch my manuscript that I was typing, typing my books. So some money was stolen. Then one boy, he was coming to me, he told me, "Please come to my place." A loft. Bowery Street. I did not know the Bowery Street was not a good quarter. All bums and drunks. When I see there, one Jewish friend, he had electrical shop, he told me, "Swamiji, you have gone to Bowery Street? Oh, it is not your place." I did not know that it is full of drunkards. But they were lying down in front of my door, but they were very respectful. When I'd go, these drunkards comes and they respectfully give me ways. And they would lie down on urine and something like that, on water. Then the boy who took me there... He was Murray. His last title was Murray. And he was taking LSD. So since I went there he did not go to work.
Prabhupāda: Indian and American, all learned scholars, they have spoken. Where is that statement? And Doctor Saligram, he has spoken very nice. Where is that? Doctor Saligram, Indian Professor, anthropology or something like that. So now better to see the movement from behind, who is that man behind it? (laughter)
Haṁsadūta: Now they're looking for you.
Prabhupāda: That British government said, "Gandhi in jail is more dangerous than he is free." (laughter)
Hari-śauri: These are the statements.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Dr. Saligram?
Hari-śauri: Yeah, Dr. Saligram Sukla.
Prabhupāda: Oh, hm. (break) ...just in front of our house, attached to our house. That means the house belonged to one of our relatives and her son, stepson, he sold the whole house to a Marwari without the knowledge of this, my, she was in relation grandmother. So when the house was sold in those days, about say about 100 years ago, not 100 years, about 90 years. In Mahatma Gandhi road, most important, that Mullik's house you have seen? That was one of the Mullik's house, for 12,000 rupees. One bighā of land and grand building. So it was unknown to the stepmother, the stepson sold it. Then she appealed to the high-court that, "I belong to a respectable family and this my spoiled stepson has sold the house without my knowledge, then where shall I go?" The high-court considered that, "The drunkard son has sold at a cheap price, and she's belongs to a respectable family, where she'll go?" And the high-court order was, "The half of the house shall be used by this lady. During her lifetime, you cannot take possession," the Marwari who purchased. So under that grandmother, we used to live. Therefore this half portion of the house was a Marwari school. So it is just like our temple and this. So my father first admitted me in that Marwari school. So I learned this devanāgarī there, for a few days I was going. I was the only Bengali student there. Because I was little, my father thought that instead of going outside the house, within the house there is a school, get him admitted. The school name was Visuddhana(?) Marwari Vijnala(?), something like that, and later on they constructed huge building Visuddhana(?). Then the house was vacated. So in the beginning I was admitted in a Marwari school and I learned a little Hindi there, that's all.
Prabhupāda: But early in the morning they should have some, at least munch of sweetmeat, something like that.
Bhagatji: Like chewra.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bhagatji: Like chewra and curds, they can take. After taking bath at one o'clock they should take little prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Early in the morning, just after maṅgala-ārati, they can take something. They must take something. They are taking bathing at what time?
Jagadīśa: In the morning?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kneupper: I think it's something like this, that... I've learned it from other of your devotees, or devotees of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, we have got our books. You are philosopher. You can read. You can understand the whole thing. There is no question of "This devotee, that devotee." We are giving in writing. So we cannot deny that.
Dr. Kneupper: The question though is that there seems to be an advo..., that you advocate that there be a kind of Vedic society, that you are...
Prabhupāda: No, Vedic means knowledge, intelligent society. Why do you understand Vedic? Veda means knowledge. Vetti veda-vido jñānena. This Veda word coming from knowledge. When I say that "Here is a man of knowledge," so what is the objection? Is there any objection? If I say that "Here is Mr. such and such, a man of knowledge," so is there any objection?
Prabhupāda: Oh, his daughter came there.
Akṣayānanda: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Daughter or granddaughter.
Akṣayānanda: Something like that, yes. He was talking about...
Prabhupāda: When I first came in Vṛndāvana I stayed in the Keśī-ghāṭa. That is very palatial building. My room was as big as this. Yes, as big. Plus one side room, plus one entrance room. I was paying fifteen rupees. And I could see whole Vṛndāvana, Yamunā, from the top my house. It is very nice, very palatial.
Hari-śauri: That's in the big building on the, right on the side of the ghāṭa?
Prabhupāda: Which gate?
Hari-śauri: That's in the big building right on the side of Keśī-ghāṭa?
Prabhupāda: No, there are fire, just like there is fire in the sun, but it is covered with ice. Therefore it is cooling.
Devotee (2): You mean ice is covering the fire?
Prabhupāda: Yes, surrounding, cold atmosphere. Something like... But it is fiery. And how they say that sun reflects some dust? Eh? How people believe it? (break) ...to be given in charge some plot of land to develop it.
Mahāṁśa: One problem that could arise by giving them a fixed place, especially giving these labor people, if we give them a fixed place, then tomorrow they may... If they break the principles we may want to remove them.
Prabhupāda: No, you should change every month.
Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, if were going to have a permanent pandal for visitors, why don't we build some simple kīrtana hall where the people can also take prasādam, something like they built in Māyāpura but not...
Prabhupāda: Do it... Do it gradually. For the time being have a pandal. Yes.
Haṁsadūta: That could be used for kīrtana and prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mahāṁśa: That you told me just now, at that site where we have the permanent temple.
Prabhupāda: That, tomorrow morning we shall see and make a...
Mahāṁśa: A design.
Prabhupāda: Blind person, he should hear. He should hear.
Indian man: But a blind person wants to see. What is milk, it will be complicated if we keep on teaching him it is white or something like that. We have to give eyes. And then he can see.
Prabhupāda: Therefore eyes... What do you give? What you mean by giving eyes? Knowledge.
Indian man: Knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Now where you get the knowledge?
Indian man: From the learned one.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So who can be learned more than Kṛṣṇa?
Hari-śauri: If they wear those big robes... Sometimes I see... It's a one-piece thing. It comes down to their ankles. If they wear something like that, it's all right.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they want to do something different. They want to see different things. If we give them a pajama and kurtā, we'll still make them do bhakti-yoga, but it's...
Prabhupāda: Bhakti-yoga, chanting, dancing there will be. They can join.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but...
Prabhupāda: But they cannot practice. They cannot sit down like this, the women. They'll be tired. This is real practice.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think even the men...
Prabhupāda: Yogāsana. Yogāsana, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, āsana.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: It was said that the man who was judge, was his classmate in Cambridge, Oxford, or something like that.
Prabhupāda: Maybe.
Dr. Patel: C.R. Das made a very good speech. I have read all about what he practicing yoga in jail when he was himself written when he came to the minister's court. He felt that everywhere was Kṛṣṇa. Everyone was... He was seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere. That was his feeling. So he would not be punished by anybody. But God is everywhere. His brother was transported to the... He was to be hanged and then he was transported to (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: (indistinct). (break) This is the fact that yato mata tato patha? Whatever path you accept, that is all right? He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam, and he approves anything.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Vinoda Bhave is also... He has issued some statement.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said "What Prabhupāda has done, no one has done," something like that.
CID Chief: Otherwise, how can the West would have come to know about Kṛṣṇa?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These are all books by Prabhupāda, all. I was telling our book sales...
Prabhupāda: Where is that telegram we have received yesterday?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was telling him our book sales are eight to ten lakh rupees a day. All by Gurujī, all. Can you imagine, Śrīla Prabhupāda writes one book a month. (break) One lakh seventy thousand big books. 90,737 medium books. 63,322 small books, and 437,420..., that is, four lakhs of Back to Godhead. Total in one week: seven lakhs and 9,236 books. In one week...
CID Chief: There won't be such a big...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda produces one book a month still.
Prabhupāda: Every house. Even there are Muhammadan house, they observe Janmāṣṭamī. I know that. One professor in Allahabad, Kavi or something like... I went to his place. He's a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's one big movie star... Not very big. Sanjaya Khan. He's Muslim, but he wears a pendant of Kṛṣṇa always. He's our member. He's promised us a donation of ten thousand rupees after his picture is released. Many Muslims we have members now.
Prabhupāda: No, he's Indian Muslim. We have got Iranian Muslims. They are our devotees, many there.
CID Chief: Well, sir, I would like to remain here, but now I have to go to my office.
Prabhupāda: So give prasāda. Bring prasāda.
Prabhupāda: No, New Vrindaban, whole thing. That is called Bahulaban or something like that? So the cows are free moving. They're very happy. You have seen it?
Jagadīśa: The original farm I haven't seen for some time.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Last time you were not... I had been there. The cows are moving freely. They're very friendly, even to the children, just like family members. Yes. Kṛṣṇa... You'll find in India one boy taking care of twenty-five cows.
Jagadīśa: With just a stick.
Prabhupāda: Yes, with a stick. (chuckles) They are so submissive. The cow is going this side, "Raa-raa!"—immediately. (Jagadīśa laughs) When in Bible they say, "The animal is given to the care of man," like that... There is. This is care of, not that "Because we care of, we shall kill them." What is this interpretation? How demonic this Western civilization. "Because Jesus Christ, the God, has given the animals to our care, therefore we shall kill and eat."
D. D. Desai: She herself is highly... The amount of respect she has got for Indian culture is terrific, to an extent of almost aggression if somebody puts a foot down or something about these things. Even Panditji, with all said and done, he had a feeling, and he was one with Mahatma Gandhi, that a day will come when India, by solving its problems, will take away the existing world from the present Western culture to a new culture, which will be of a superior level. That day would be the day when India has made good its ultimate destiny. Something like that they had feeling. So Panditji also was dreaming, but he was not an executive type of person. So Panditji had left his thing, all the dreams, but Mrs. Gandhi seems to be translating some of the dreams, or at least she feels she's translating some of the dreams into reality. The difficulty with her is that she has not proper guidance at times, and to that extent she feels she falls into certain pits of difficulties. Basically a good soul, but a soul with certain waywardness could become at times little...
Prabhupāda: So if you think that Mrs. Gandhi is religious and is for Indian culture, why not ask her to take the guidance of Kṛṣṇa? Who can give better guidance than Kṛṣṇa?
Dr. Patel: What is that conspiracy, sir, in America?
Prabhupāda: They are planning how to stop this movement in so many ways.
Dr. Patel: By some sort of physical force or something like...
Prabhupāda: Not physical, but... What is the idea?
Jagadīśa: Propaganda.
Prabhupāda: Propaganda.
Dr. Patel: The Americans, I mean, always doing like that. There are lot of bad persons.
Prabhupāda: Well, there are good and bad every place. Most of them are... Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). This is Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Oh. He's there in Delhi?
Devotee (1): Yes. He just came back yesterday. He'll be coming here soon.
Gurudāsa: Now, previously the budget... I figured it out with the ones who are cooking. You wanted puris and halavā and subji, something like that. But we didn't have enough before. So I was going to make puṣpanna. Is that all right? Or would you rather... Now, with the ten thousand rupees...
Prabhupāda: Puṣpanna for visitors also? No, they will have objection to take anna. They'll take puri, śāk, halavā.
Gurudāsa: What do you want?
Prabhupāda: Purī, śāk, halavā is... It can be distributed to anyone. Puṣpanna, some may take, some may not take.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Shaven-headed. These Buddhist monks, they are shaven-headed.
Hari-śauri: Even in the West they shave their heads. And they look something like that.
Prabhupāda: Well, there was some income tax office pleader. So I have given the idea that "The fifty percent, that is promotion expenditure." So he accept..., "Yes, it can be done." Where is the profit? Whatever is profit is promotion expenditure. We give to ISKCON commission, or some way or other, it is spent. So he admitted, "Yes, it can be done." And last night I was suggesting, "For promotion spend." Even if we open a temple, that is promotion.
Jagadīśa: Profit means that people are putting money in their pocket and enjoying. And we don't.
Prabhupāda: But we're not. No. If we open a center, that is propaganda center. Why do you say "temple"? But this is the way of propaganda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our victory, when there is opposition, and that is our victory. In spite of opposition, we are selling our books in large quantity. Yes. Large quantity. What is the one week sale that? Eighteen lakhs or something like...
Girirāja: In one week, the books, total of books, was seven lakhs books in one week.
Indian man: In one week? That would be hundred thousand dollars.
Prabhupāda: No, no. More than. Eh? Seven lakhs?
Guest (11) (Indian man): But mostly they are in America. Also in that number in Japan?
Prabhupāda: No, America. And opposition is also in America. No, Europe and America, they are taking.
Prabhupāda: Explanation also not very much required because the explanation is already there, and we are not so intelligent that we can explain. But we take it, the words of the Bhagavad-gītā, that Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). If we see that one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he comes to this group: duṣkṛtina, narādhamāḥ and mūḍha. That's all. This is our conclusion. We are fools and rascal. We take the words of Kṛṣṇa. He cannot surrender to Kṛṣṇa on account of duṣkṛtina. Kṛti means he's doing something meritorious—but for bad purpose, duṣkṛtina. He is taxing his brain to do something, but against the will of Bhagavad-gītā. That is called duṣkṛtina. The purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God. But if you are deviating them to become atheists, narādhamāḥ, then what is Bhagavad-gītā preaching? You preach Bhagavad-gītā as it is. So they take the Bhagavad-gītā for serving their purpose. Somebody was telling me that Dr. Radhakrishnan said that "If you take Bhagavad-gītā as..., Kṛṣṇa as God...," something like that, that they deny that Kṛṣṇa is God. This is Bhagavad-gītā preaching. God is speaking Himself-bhagavān uvāca. Vyāsadeva (Hindi). Vyāsadeva... Who can be better scholar than Vyāsadeva?
Prabhupāda: Living nicely on the street. They have no nice place even. What is that? Lions? Go pay one dollar and live there?
Jagadīśa: YMCA.
Prabhupāda: Something like that. They have no place to live. At night... Whole day they lie down on the street and beg and drink, and at night they pay one dollar and live.
Rāmeśvara: That's a very small minority of the people.
Prabhupāda: Well, there is? Why? You are so rich country, why? Why it is happening? Not small minority.
Rāmeśvara: And we have our vacations. We can travel anywhere in the world and visit, sightsee.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) So our book-selling appreciated all over the world.
Brahmānanda: Yes. And this is an Indian, he's a Hindu, so he knows Vedic culture, but still he liked your books very much. He said, "I've never read something like this."
Prabhupāda: Our presentation is simplified. That is the beauty.
Brahmānanda: Yes. That's what he appreciated.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not make the things cumbersome.
Rāmeśvara: So that no one understands.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also dealing with the gopīs. Dehi pada-palavam udaram. So these things are not ordinary things. You should understand that. If you make, propagate, then the people... I have seen one book one rascal Bhaṭṭācārya has written. And the United Nation or something like that supported, gave him, them money. And in the cover of the book he has given a picture of Rādhārāṇī sitting naked. This is going on.
Guest (1): No, sir, the pictures you were having, this rasa līlā, this is also these very things. We have seen those pictures.
Prabhupāda: No, but... No, that's all right. That picture is in the book. That book is... We are translating Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And what...
Prabhupāda: No, mother.
Gargamuni: No, his mother came here. She worked as a nurse in Bombay.
Hari-śauri: Oh. That was it.
Prabhupāda: Mother Theresa or something like that.
Hari-śauri: No, no. She has nothing to do with...
Gargamuni: No.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Gargamuni: She worked in some hospital for a few years in Bombay.
Hari-śauri: She was a relief worker. Was it his mother or his wife?
Prabhupāda: Mother Theresa, no?
Satsvarūpa: Yeah, some Greek name.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Fishlington or something like that.
Satsvarūpa: Mitralanti(?) or something.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So he was taking every fortnightly 150 dollars by telephone, and Rāyarāma, he was paying. He took about five hundred, six hundred dollars and did not do anything, simply extending the date. The lawyers will plunder. The government men will plunder. The physician will plunder. Ordinary dealing, they will plunder. The shopkeepers will plunder. The... And bank will say that "You take money. You pay your bills. We'll give you loan, we'll charge interest. And when you get your salary, then you have to deposit it in the bank." And they'll adjust. And again you are penniless. Again you take loan. The social arrangement is so made that you simply depend on loan. And to earn this money you'll have to go five hundred miles away from your home, early in the morning, in the car.
Prabhupāda: No.
Gargamuni: He wants... What is it? Five thousand per bighā. Something like that.
Prabhupāda: We can pay, utmost, one thousand five hundred, as we have paid.
Gargamuni: Well, land prices have gone up since then. I think now they're running eighteen hundred. That was in '71 we were paying fifteen hundred. But now we have to expect to pay, say, eighteen hundred. This land is valuable because it produces so much. That is why it is most costly. You get very good crops from our, this land.
Prabhupāda: No, that land I shall use, if I take it, for another gate, in and out. That is my idea.
Gargamuni: Oh, I see
Gurukṛpā: We are putting a road in front of this new building. There's a road in front of the new building.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Pṛthu-putra: ...to show me. They were telling me that "You are going to see the representative of God." And when I came to that vision, I saw the person. At that time I didn't know who (it) was. But I had some doubts in my mind, and I was thinking, "Oh, that's probably another kind of propaganda." This was all in the dream. But when I came to that person sitting on the elevated seat in that forest, surrounded by many, many devotees, that person looked at me and proved to me that he was the representative of God. But after, I forgot. Maybe one year or something like this. One or two years after...
Prabhupāda: So there is no doubt about it that I am the representative of God.
Pṛthu-putra: Yes. But when I was...
Prabhupāda: Either you dream or not dream, I claim.
Prabhupāda: He has written thirteen books?
Hari-śauri: Something like that.
Bhāgavata: At the end of his book he said, "When you're finished reading it, throw it away."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Bhāgavata: When you're finished reading this book you should throw it away.
Hari-śauri: 'Cause you don't actually need it.
Satsvarūpa: And that philosopher of this philosophy, Camus, he said, "Don't try to lead me because I may not want to follow you, and don't follow me because I am not capable of leading you. Just walk beside me and be my friend." So he said by writing his books he was not trying to lead other people but just trying to free them from following falsely any absolute philosophy.
Prabhupāda: So why shall I take the trouble? I throw it immediately. (laughter)
Hari-śauri: I got the book, and I... There was one chapter called, "Does God Exist?" something like that. So I turned to that one first. And after I read the first paragraph, I threw the book out, (laughs) because he was saying, "Well, God exists if you believe He exists. And if you don't believe He exists, then He doesn't exist."
Prabhupāda: So it depends on me. God's existence depends on me.
Hari-śauri: Yeah. So I thought, "Well, if he's leaving it up to me to decide..." I was buying the book to try and find some information. So what was the...? So I couldn't see the value in the thing. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...all the clubs, they...
Prabhupāda: He was also astronomer?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think he was from Germany. He knew something about Sanskrit, but translation was just like to criticize those Indian, old Indian astronomers. Something like, very..., not even using even respectful words, but offensive sometimes, so we didn't bother to go through those books.
Pradyumna: There's copy of Sūrya-siddhānta by Bhaktisiddhānta in London at India Office Library. They have a copy in Bengali.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Bengali?
Pradyumna: Yes, they have original, these. But they do not let... They have a funny... You cannot copy the whole book with a xerox there. You only can see it and copy by hand. They won't let you do it. But there's a copy there, Samadhi Press.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayapatākā: This municipal executive we didn't meet. He's just appointed by the government. He might have just suggested something like "Let's see if they'll do the work without us being very firmly obligated," Just testing us. Exactly what... But we can't do anything like that. But maybe that Gargamuni didn't understand their English very well, or they didn't...
Prabhupāda: So tomorrow you'll go to see whom?
Jayapatākā: I was thinking to go Monday because tomorrow is Sunday.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: So you reply this, that "You come. I shall train you. You will guide. We are prepared to guide you, but it is not possible to, bring men outside to guide you. You come to us. I shall train you how to guide." This is the reply. And that is wanted. This Bon Mahārāja failed. Why? He wanted... Guru Mahārāja wanted that you start one temple in London. But he was thinking of bringing, taking men from India. Actually he had no.... (break) That is the fact. Therefore he failed. Instead of serving Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, he wanted to serve Vivekananda. To become like Vivekananda and "I shall be very much eulogized in my country, second Vivekananda." That was his ambition. He never wished to defy Vivekananda and elevate Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has introduced in his Oriental Institute, Gandhi philosophy, Vivekananda philosophy. Just see his position. He's appreciating... We are simply condemning Gandhi philosophy, and he's appreciating Gandhi. We are simply depreciating Vivekananda, and he's introducing Vivekananda. This is his position. He cannot understand even that where is philosophy in Vivekananda and Gandhi? Gandhi is nationalist. Again problem with your finger. Twenty-four hours, finger problem or nose problem. That I am observing. No attention. So where is philosophy in Vivekananda or Gandhi? He was nationalist. Nationalist means dehātma-buddhi. Dehātma-buddhi means sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13), cows and asses. He worked throughout his whole life for Indian people. In Africa also, he wasted twenty years, and India, thirty years. Fifty years. He lived for seventy-eight years. So twenty-seven years was for his education or something like that and fifty years wasted.
Prabhupāda: Boil? Something?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something like a boil. So he was sitting most of the time.
Prabhupāda: Now I have advised the books in the schools, colleges, our Hindi, Bengali, English, we can push in every school. I was instructing...
Devotee: Māyāpura town?
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, all over the world. It will be a revolution from godlessness to understanding of God. That is wanted. Otherwise the whole human society is suffering. Harāv abhaktasya kuto. This advancement of so-called education has no value. It is very risky. They do not know how the nature's law is working. Rascals. They are taking this short duration of life, māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43), making big, big plans, forgetting they're completely under the control of nature. A very risky civilization.
Prabhupāda: They're bogus.
Brahmānanda: They were trying to decide what to call the name of this group, something like "Concerned Citizens for the Protection of Hare Kṛṣṇa Devotees," something like that. So some of our own...
Prabhupāda: No, no. "To protect the Human Rights." Keep this name. What is human right? That we can explain. The human right is: here is an opportunity to understand God. So this society is giving that knowledge. If you don't give the human being the right of understanding God, then he's animal. You keep him as animal. The animal doesn't require, neither it is capable of understanding what is God, what is his relationship with God, what is his duty. He cannot understand. It is the only human being who can understand.
Brahmānanda: This is a group of scholars and intelligent people who want to help Hare Kṛṣṇa, in other words, friends of Hare Kṛṣṇa. So actually it was some of our devotees, they suggested that the name of this group should not say Hare Kṛṣṇa. It should say, "Friends of God conscious people," or something like that, because they thought the word Hare Kṛṣṇa makes some negative...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Reaction.
Prabhupāda: But Hare Kṛṣṇa is religion.
Brahmānanda: So one of the big scholars, he said that "I will not join any organization if Kṛṣṇa's name is not there..."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Because I want to fight..."
Brahmānanda: "I want to fight for Hare Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: Their terms do not expire. Anyway, he has got Ph.D. in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, but he does not know Caitanya philosophy. Otherwise how he said that Jagabandhu is incarnation of Gaura-Nitāi? Or something like that, he said. He does not know. One who does not know what is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, how he gets his doctorate title on that philosophy? Even if he has got by some means, but where is the authority to prove that Jagabandhu is the combination of Gaura-Nitāi? No ācārya has said like that—Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura or Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, Viśvanātha Cakravartī. Where he got this bogus idea? Do you believe in that?
Prabhupāda: No. Side by side, you can go on. Kṛṣṇa is eternal. His business is also eternal. It will never finish.
Pañcadraviḍa: This standing orders to individuals, is that something like life membership program?
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many educated, enlightened men. They will take.
Tripurāri: So we should pick out certain individuals, then, to approach, not just go door to door.
Prabhupāda: This is Melbourne.
Bali-mardana: Melbourne temple.
Prabhupāda: Gaura-Nitāi is wonderful, Melbourne. Eh?
Prabhupāda: Ask everyone visiting, "Please take prasādam."
Pañcadraviḍa: Each person will get twenty grams of gur and peanuts, a preparation like nakaldana, something like nakaldana, in their hand.
Prabhupāda: Nakaldana? Not khicuṛi?
Pañcadraviḍa: Peanuts coated with gur. Gur is cooked, and the peanuts...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what kind of prasādam would you...
Prabhupāda: Khicuṛi.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Khicuṛi.
Pañcadraviḍa: But for khicuṛi it would be difficult to feed one lakh of people.
Prabhupāda: So where he will be best.
Girirāja: Yes. So what I was thinking is that he could stop here for a few minutes and meet you. Actually his term expires on March 31st.
Prabhupāda: When the chief minister or something like that?
Girirāja: Chief minister is coming on Tuesday, on Rāma-navamī.
Prabhupāda: But I am going to Juhu on Monday, is it not?
Girirāja: Well, we were originally thinking you could go on Wednesday, but...
Prabhupāda: Oh. If they have arranged. I do not know what is your arrangement.
Girirāja: Oh, I'll find out. (long pause)
Prabhupāda: When you'll call Tamāla Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The democratic campaign. But from our point of view, these are not the solution. Temporary. Temporary relief. Daṇḍya jane rāja yena nadīte cubāya.(?) You know this? Daṇḍya jane rāja yena nadīte cubāya. I have spoken several times in... Formerly, the criminal was taken in the middle of the river and he was drowned. And when he was suffocating, he's held up. Then he, ahhh (takes deep breath). This relief is like that. That means as soon as he takes little strength, again, put again. Then daṇḍya jane rāja yena nadīte cubāya.(?) These rascals are like that. For the time being there is little relief: "Oh, we are now free from the leaders." And there is another hand is being created. Bābājī or something like that. Then again they shall put his... This is going on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is his exact position?
Girirāja: He is a member of parliament from Bombay South, which is the most prestigious district, from Kalabha up to (indistinct), something like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He formerly helped us?
Girirāja: Yes. When Mattrey was, did that demolition attempt, so he was one of the leaders in the corporation. So he fought for us. In fact today also he asked if there was any trouble, because he still is also maintaining his position in the municipal corporation. So I think when he gets back from Delhi in a week, I might bring up some of our little problems.
Prabhupāda: That plan sentence.(?)
Girirāja: Yeah. And that road, that ten feet.
Prabhupāda: What benefit they will get?
Prabhupāda: Punjab Mail goes up to border of Kashmir.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So something like that. I mean we could fix that up.
Prabhupāda: No, as many books you can carry without any difficulty, you can take.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the plane. Okay. Maybe Guru dāsa should wait there for awhile. If Guru dāsa and I go together as a preaching team, we can conquer anywhere.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean we will bring everyone that you want to see.
Prabhupāda: If you send a report, tell him that "You stay; we are coming."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should send a telegram. But his letter is coming. So I think we should wait for his letter and then reply it. Yeah, because in the afternoons there is no problem for me to go out for a few hours preaching with him, you know, if need be.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Girirāja: He was a famous singer, and his father was also... So now he has become something like a guru. And he has a temple in Poona called the Hare Krishna Temple. And the main Deity is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Of course, he's bogus, more or less, but he... One thing is he was just praising you for hours almost, in front of all of his disciples.
Prabhupāda: How old is he? As old as I am?
Girirāja: He is seventy-five. He was saying that... He's written some sentimental books about Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's flute and this and that. But anyway, he was just saying that he couldn't imagine how you could do so much. You know, he said, unless you were empowered by God, you could not have done this. He said with great difficulty he had published one book in America, and you'd published so many books, sales, and making devotees, and establishing centers. He wasn't feeling well, but he said he would really like to come here and offer...
Prabhupāda: Bombay?
Girirāja: This also you said many years ago.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I talked with one professor, Norman Brown or something like that. He does not know Sanskrit. He is in charge of the Sanskrit...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amogha-līlā Prabhu has arranged a press conference today.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Talk with them scientifically.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That is at three o'clock.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. Where it will be?
Girirāja: In the city, at... It's a vegetarian restaurant.
Prabhupāda: Never mind. Talk with them.
Girirāja: It's a popular place for press conferences.
Prabhupāda: So they know that the scientific...?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How long it takes from Gwalior to there by car?
Mr. Dwivedi: About three hours or two hours and half, something like that. Seventy-five miles.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of road is it?
Mr. Dwivedi: Pardon?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of road?
Mr. Dwivedi: Road?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of road? Good road?
Mr. Dwivedi: Car road.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Car road.
Mr. Dwivedi: Yes, throughout.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Winding? No.
Mr. Dwivedi: No. That, little winding.
Prabhupāda: So why not go by train to Jhansi?
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Now, how they have become Kṛṣṇa conscious? And our men? They are dragged, somebody, to this conscious, that conscious, that conscious. Take this steady instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Try to implement. Everyone will be happy, everyone, undoubtedly. Take this seriously. It is not that, because we are pushing Kṛṣṇa ... We are not pushing something new, manufactured. It is already there. It is already there. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So what do you think? Is it possible to push Kṛṣṇa consciousness on this line, strictly on Bhagavad-gītā? What do you think? It is not difficult, but we have made it difficult. Recently I had been to Vinoba Bhave's aśrama. And there is no Kṛṣṇa, and he is writing Bhagavad-gītā pravacana or something like that. Even in Gandhi's āśrama, Wardha(?), the Gandhi's lantern is being worshiped. And where is Kṛṣṇa? So the Bhagavad-gītā's instruction is mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and they are worshiping Gandhi's lantern. You had been with me?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...been seeing this one person there by the name of Bhagavan Shringari Das, Bhagavan Shringari. He's the pūjārī of Lord Jagannātha. So he's claiming that when anyone goes to a holy place like Jagannātha Purī that they have to get initiated by a tīrtha-guru. So these foolish disciples, they're going and they're accepting initiation from him, and he gives them some mantra, and then he... Naturally there's an exchange of money. They have to promise to send money regularly for Lord... He says it's for Lord Jagannātha. Obviously Lord Jagannātha will never see the money. He also gets them to write a letter. The letter reads something like that "I came to India blind, but now Bhagavan Shringari Das has opened my eyes." Doesn't even mention Your Divine Grace. And this boy, he was telling me this... When he asked about the holy places... This devotee, who..., he's doing a little assistance for me, he refused to have anything..., take any initiation 'cause he said that he could understand that something was wrong. He asked him, "What about Māyāpura?" He said, "Oh, Māyāpura is nothing. That is not the dhāma." Then he said, "Dhāma means...," and he named the four dhāmas. So in this way some of the devotees are... Apparently they're even going back to America and they're encouraging others to send money to this cheater. This man is a big cheater. (name withheld), she took this initiation, and some other people, he mentioned... When he was there, there were already four devotees there, some householder devotee from Los Angeles, (name withheld)... He sells them things like the flag from the top of the temple for a hundred rupees. You know, different types of thing he sells them. So I said, "So why didn't you ask him, 'Now that we're your disciple and you're our guru, now take us into the temple'? "
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Girirāja: Going to try to phone Mr. Rajda. And considering that the Prime Minister may not have that much time... We had discussed that he should come here to meet you, but suppose if we fix up, say, a minimum time if he can't come here, say at least a half hour undisturbed, something like that, is it possible to fix in the city or we should just insist that...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's suggesting that if the Prime Minister can't give that much time, whether you would go to see him? Actually, if you give the idea that Prabhupāda wants to see him in the morning hours...
Girirāja: Yeah, I'm going to.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, if he says that that's not possible...
Prabhupāda: That is not respectful.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You told them in that meeting we had in Warda. You were very bold. You said, "Unless you surrender to Kṛṣṇa and understand Kṛṣṇa, it's all useless." There is one very great yogic teacher in India like Maharishi Yogi called Brahmacari Virendra or something like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dhirendra Brahma... Prabhupāda was reading about him this morning in the newspaper.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, you were? Oh, with that case...?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has been following.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Dhirendra Brahmacari.
Trivikrama: Who was caught with the woman.
Prabhupāda: Just like every one of us. I know, you know, that "This is my body. This is my finger. This is my leg." So the body is called kṣetra. We have been allotted a kṣetra. Just like the government distributes the land to a certain person, that "This is your land. You till it and grow your food," thirty bighās or something like that. This body is like that. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He is there within the body, and He is giving us this kṣetra. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). So I have got this body. You have got that body. The dog has got body. The cat has got body. So He's everywhere. So according to his karma or desire, he gets a body. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 18.61). And he works. Therefore the body is the kṣetra, the field, and the individual soul is the worker. So he is working and getting the fruitive result, but at the same time, God is also with him. But He is everywhere. I am not everywhere.
Indian man (1): I think all the educational institutions are closed for summer vacation. Therefore many students and these people may have come, and they this cause, or something like that. I'm not sure, but that is what I guess.
Prabhupāda: They have also manufactured. (laughter) This is going on. So Vedic injunction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Guru is required to understand tad-vijñānam, transcendental science, not for any material understanding. Material understanding, there are so many chemists, (sic:) physists and many other department of... When we speak of guru, it means beyond this material world. For that purpose we require guru. So... Just like now it is being very much advertised that "You execute meditation. Your mind will be strong. Your health will be strong." That means from material point. But keeping your health strong, the medical science is there and so many other thing. But people are taking advantage of this yoga system. The śāstra says that dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). He is yogi who is meditating and mind is fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise it is material. Material things does not require... Maybe a gymnastic, muṣṭika.
Prabhupāda: No, he can, but he has no such plan. If he imposes his power as president, he can do that. But he's afraid. He cannot make any disciples... That is...
Jayapatākā: Saman Mahārāja. As ācārya, I think he makes disciple. He cannot any administrative... Administrative is Govinda Mahārāja. Something like that.
Prabhupāda: That means both of them are being conducted by higher authority. Anyway, if the local men, they pass resolution like that, that is very good.
Jayapatākā: They're thoroughly disgusted. They can see all of these things. When I told them of your losing... They're very determined.
Prabhupāda: If they... And if they call, we shall immediately...
Jayapatākā: The situation there is precarious. There are vast majority of Muhammadans. Constantly the Hindus are being..., not have any chance to worship or to have any strength or spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we saw something like that in Hrishikesh. Just recently we went to Hrishikesh, and in one āśrama they have doll exhibits of all the avatāras. Oh, it was very... Of all kṛṣṇa-līlā. And each doll exhibit is within a little temple, dome-shaped temple. People go and look, and there's a plaque that describes what it is. Very nice.
Rāmeśvara: We'll have more than a plaque.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, that whole thing costs a thousand dollars, not a quarter of a million.
Prabhupāda: Doll exhibition you can have in this temple also. People will come to see.
Prabhupāda: What is that oil? Petrol?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's crude... It's something like crude oil, I think. I'm not sure, Prabhupāda. They just call it oil.
Prabhupāda: Not vegetable oil.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. It's a crude type of oil, brown.
Prabhupāda: Grease.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's a grease. It's for burning, though. Eight thousand dollars a month, nine thousand dollars... And that elevator, three thousand dollars.
Prabhupāda: Eleven?
Prabhupāda: And book selling?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Book selling... We sell at least, say, I would say, something like about four hundred dollars worth of books every Sunday at the temple. Most of the people who came, they came because they bought your book, and we gave them an invitation to the feast. Everyone who has joined has bought your book first. That is their introduction to Kṛṣṇa consciousness—a book. Very few people come first to a temple. First thing they take and read your book. Then they become interested. The book goes into their home. (break) They can put these. Oh, yeah... Because they're libraries. I mean, they can buy the books. They can buy the books. The theology, arts... Nothing wrong with their buying, but probably they... From what I know, the general system is that you don't send salesmen into these communist countries. You send a brochure, and they buy through their agents. And this is unheard of, that someone sneaks into a country with all these books and preaches. He said sometimes his life is threatened.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Prabhupāda: So that you cannot do.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those people don't need that education so much.
Prabhupāda: They should be trained up in the field, to the weaving practice or something like that. They don't require education.
Akṣayānanda: Intelligent class.
Prabhupāda: Intelligent class. We cannot make them interested. Some of them may come out, but not all. It is not possible.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes wealthy people are afraid that if their sons come to this gurukula, they'll become sādhus.
Prabhupāda: What is the purport?
Upendra: This material world is called the world of death. Every living being, beginning from Brahmā, whose duration of life is some thousands of millions of years, down to the germs who live for a few seconds only, is struggling for existence. Therefore, this life is a sort of fight with material nature, which imposes death upon all. In the human form of life, a living being is competent enough to come to an understanding of this great struggle for existence, but being too attached to family members, society, country, etc., he wants to win over the invincible material nature by the aid of bodily strength, children, wife, relatives, etc. Although he is sufficiently experienced in the matter by dint of past experience and previous examples of his deceased predecessors, he does not see that the so-called fighting soldiers like the children, relatives, society members and countrymen are all fallible in the great struggle. One should examine the fact that his father or his father's father has already died, and that he himself is therefore also sure to die, and similarly, his children, who are the would-be fathers of their children, will also die in due course. No one will survive in this struggle with material nature. The history of human society definitely proves it, yet the foolish people still suggest that in the future they will be able to live perpetually, with the help of material science. This poor fund of knowledge exhibited by human society is certainly misleading, and it is all due to ignoring the constitution of the living soul. This material world exists only as a dream, due to our attachment to it. Otherwise, the living soul is always different from the material nature. The great ocean of material nature is tossing with the waves of time, and the so-called living conditions are something like foaming bubbles, which appear before us as bodily self, wife, children, society, countrymen, etc.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Mr. Myer: We need in this country very much, in every city, in every town. For twenty years I was searching for something like this, and I think something exactly what I have dreamt of. And I think there are some very few problems that might come up, because most of the people are sannyāsīs. They are doing lot of preaching work. They aren't necessarily bothered with lot of administrative work. And if their administrative work is done by some other people, then they can concentrate more on preaching, which is very necessary.
Prabhupāda: Yes, sannyāsī, brahmacārī, means preaching. They are not meant for material management. They have dedicated their life for spiritual-although this material service is also spiritual—but they are doing on such a strength. You cannot expect a very expertly management and... But they act. Simply ask them to do the needful.
Prabhupāda: I think that Maharishi is therefore in Hrishikesh. He's afraid of being arrested or something like that.
Śatadhanya: He's hiding.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here that "The Moon people expect to discontinue street sales of candy and other items in three years, hoping to have become totally reliant upon businesses by then." See, we go out, and we distribute our books, and we use, you know, things like candy or incense as a...
Prabhupāda: Introduction.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...introduction. So we were imitated by all the other groups. But the only difference is that's all they have is the introduction. They don't come with the book at the end. All they do is sell candy and the incense to get money. So groups like the Moonies, they want to discontinue this. In place, they want to make big businesses just like the Christians have. And nobody will be on the street anymore.
Prabhupāda: Even gambling.
Prabhupāda: No, no. From Calcutta to here. Ticket, what is?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something like about... The ticket's about fifty-six...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...the modern kīrtana. Kīrtanāt... (break) "We shall improve our economic condition for more and more sense gratification." And that is the mistake. People are trying for that. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā (SB 1.2.10). Yāvad artha-prayojanam. Whatever money is required for maintaining, that's all. And as soon as we increase the so-called standard of happiness by sense gratification, then there is trouble. That is going on all over the world. They want money. They're not satis... "More money. More money. More money." Why more money? If you can live comfortably with certain amount of money, be satisfied in that way. Why more?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unnecessary.
Prabhupāda: Unnecessary, and increase anxiety.
Prabhupāda: Whatever indication, I like this. You cannot check my liking. Just like an Indian dresses like a European, or a European dresses like Indian. Does it mean that he has become Indian or he's American? He likes it. That's all. Can you object if a girl dresses like Indian with ladies' sari? Can you object? It is something like that. "Oh, why you have become Indian-like? Why you are imitating?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say, "Well, no, you can wear your Santa Claus suit, but you'll have to wear a Hare Kṛṣṇa button."
Prabhupāda: That we can do. Never mind. But that is not under your dictation. If I like.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They actually made us in New York, the court.
Prabhupāda: No, then there is no objection. But you cannot dictate...
Prabhupāda: That is the Orissa government's principle.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is our answer to that? Our reply?
Prabhupāda: What you can reply if you conclude something like... They have no idea of spiritual life. This is disrupting, na dhanaṁ na janam. We don't want this. And they want it. So how you can reply? Everyone wants this, and we say, "We don't want." How you can make compromise? Therefore they say "emasculated." In your country also. "Why? What is the wrong, illicit sex? What is the wrong, intoxication?" They say, "Brainwash. Why not?" Is it not? It is very difficult to push on this movement. Still, we are going. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. (pause)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will you try to translate this afternoon, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: And everywhere, how they were well dressed, well fed, and rich in milk products. When called, people, the brāhmaṇas give in charity cows, not at all poor.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were reading that one king gave fourteen lakhs' elephants covered in gold, and another king was giving something like 21,000 cows to each brāhmaṇa. Who could imagine? Now the only kind of cows anyone will give you is those that don't give milk.
Prabhupāda: The cows were decorated with cloth, gold necklace, and heaps of grains.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cow horns were sometimes with gold on the end.
Prabhupāda: That means gold and silver and jewels and cloth sump..., more than... Milk products, grains. This was richness.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. So there is one member of Parliament in Gujarat who belongs to the party of the Home Minister. He was the chairman of party Lok Dal. It was Charan Singh's party. And he... I met him, and I explained to him that we wanted some citizenship for some devotees or something like that, and he mentioned it to Charan Singh when he came back from Delhi. And Charan Singh said that if it was... There's discussion, then definitely... I mean if there's no legal hitch, he will certainly help. Then I said but they want to come and meet you also. So he said, "Yes, you can bring them." So tomorrow... I came this week, and tomorrow the member says that we can meet him. Now I just heard that there was some news yesterday? So that... We will have to make two applications, one to clear up that incident...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the member will come here to Vṛndāvana to see Prabhupāda?
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes, if I bring him he'll come.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Not bad.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Haṁsadūta: Yes, that would be very good there because it's also a very ideal climate. Everything grows there very easily because there's plenty of rain, fertile soil, and there's only one city—that's Colombo. And it's a very small city. People are all agriculturalists. The government is also giving land free to encourage agriculture. Simply that it has to be cleared. It's jungle land; it has to be cleared. Shall we try for something like that?
Prabhupāda: What you can do it easily...
Haṁsadūta: Do.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This Dr. Kovoor affair has given you some position.
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No taste.
Hari-śauri: No taste. But at least it may give some strength back.
Prabhupāda: How it can if it cannot enter into the system?
Hari-śauri: It's not being digested? If you were to take something like soup, that may be more easily digestible, just the liquids. But that would have much of the goodness...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Hari-śauri: Things like soup and vegetable juices?
Prabhupāda: Cannot take. No taste.
Hari-śauri: At least with the chanting, that gives a higher taste.
Prabhupāda: Hm. What is the time now?
Hṛdayānanda: Always more or less warm. Tropical, subtropical. Always nice fruits. Perhaps some day, in a Kṛṣṇa conscious world, we'll have to bring many people there, because there's so much unused land, all very green, lots of rivers, very nice, warm, and no one lives there. Thousands of miles of very nice land, and no one is using it. We are sending a few devotees back to Argentina, and we're going to try and see what can be done there. We are hopeful that even though our movement was kicked out there, still, there are many, many people who are chanting sixteen rounds or building altars in their homes and offering their food to Kṛṣṇa. And even since the government's kicked out all the different groups, including ourselves, just by your books circulating, many people are becoming devotees and leaving the country to go to other temples. So actually we're still making devotees there just from the books that were distributed. And now we're investigating to try to again get legal permission, also perhaps establish something like some type of restaurant or farm community there. (break)
Prabhupāda: What news?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We're trying to fix a debate in Delhi on October 27th among different scientists and ourselves.
Prabhupāda: 27th October?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It's already a cultural center. Just like the Gītā Conference is coming next month, I was told? They would like to hold here. Something like that, we can always get some engagements. Also we can get some...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What do you think, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No, whatever you think is approved.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Whatever you think is approved.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. We can discuss...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also that will add attractions to the outsiders, if we have these nice places. Everybody who came here, those few scientists... About fifty-five, I think, all came. Most of them told me that they never knew that such thing existed in Vṛndāvana. It's such a nice place, and very peaceful and... They never expected that these things existed in Vṛndāvana. And they were very impressed. Even our incomplete building and with all our incomplete arrangements, they were very amazed that such thing existed. And one... Actually a few of them from Agra told me that "Next time, if you hold a conference," he said, "I will take all responsibility to bring all the scientists from around Agra, Delhi, and everything." He said he didn't know that such things might exist.
Prabhupāda: Yes his name was Kashiram. So he was howling, howling. So we took him to the hospital, and so many student doctors surrounded. They diagnosed something, strangulation or something like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Strangulation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then they were prepared to surgical operation. Then another experienced doctor came. He said, "Let us wait today." So he was kept in the hospital, and we came back. That Kashiram... Another friend, servant of the neighborhood, and so he said, "Bābājī, he has drunk this."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He got a little drunk.
Prabhupāda: So I said, "Don't delay. So many doctors..." And next morning he came back and said, "The doctor said, 'You are all right, you can go.' "
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right, Svarūpa Dāmodara?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, something like that, very vague. Complete misunderstanding.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was his point in the conference?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was saying there is nothing like table. He was sitting on a table. So it is just an imagination. There's nothing like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Says it's illusion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he said it's illusion.
Prabhupāda: But he quotes from the Ramakrishna.
Vrindavan De: Cash? At present? Only ten thousand, eight thousand or nine thousand, something like that.
Prabhupāda: So arrange to give him that 47,000.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's 43,200. But I mean...
Vrindavan De: No, you'll get the money back by 10th or 15th April.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's not the point. The problem is that how we can get... I don't know if this... I mean I'll do it, but I'm thinking that we're jeopardizing our position as a... I mean this money is not a privately owned money.
Prabhupāda: No, no, the Society cannot.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can the Society give money to a private business? It's not done.
Vrindavan De: No, it is just a temporary... (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: What is in my private account?
Prabhupāda: And that is Māyāvāda. (break) ...superficially Caitanya Mahāprabhu also a Māyāvādī.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That was confirmed when He was talking like that. Just like Carl Jung... He's a psychologist. He says that matter is a concept, some sort of imagination that one has in his mind, something like that idea that these Māyāvādīs... They think this is not real.
Prabhupāda: It is not real in this sense: because the spirit is there, therefore it is there. Because there is consciousness, there is ignorance, covering. And if you stop this ignorance, then consciousness is there, pure.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the consciousness is undeveloped, looks like dead body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (break)
Prabhupāda: Why they suppose?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I personally don't feel at this point... Frankly speaking, I don't think that this reply on his part is very good. I don't think it's proper. He's speaking about a settlement. First of all there is no settlement. The whole legal way in which he's worded this letter indicates to me that he's not taking things in a very... Seems to me he has some motives. He has no reason to doubt this scheme. That's my point. And if he's thinking that he has some kind of rights... (break) ...offices. They're very pleased. And they were especially pleased to get these fixed deposits. Immediately we gave them this six lakhs' fixed deposits, they were very happy with this. They've got about something like 350 accounts already from outsiders within a month or two. They're very, very pleased. They feel that this will become a full branch very quickly, and they have a great amount of space, and they're not at all sorry about the price that they're paying. And it's a good income for our temple.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
| Page Title: | Something like... (Conversations 1976 - 1977) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 31 of Oct, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=138, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 138 |