Prabhupāda: Therefore it is to be understood that the Absolute has energy. He has got different energies. By His energies He is acting, and that is confirmed in the Vedic sūtra, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). The Supreme Absolute Truth has multi-energies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate, multi-energies. And svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca, and by His energies he's working in such a nice way that it appears that it is being automatically done. Just like this tape recorder is working. How it is working? The electric energy is there. By the electric energy the machine is so nicely working that when it is replayed exactly I am speaking. So energy is working. I am speaking, my speaking energy is acting, electric energy is helping. This machine energy is accepting and a nice thing is coming. Similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation is the manifestation of the energies. The rascals, they do not understand. And when it is stated that everything is Brahman, that is to be understood that everything is working under the energy of the Supreme Brahman. That is real meaning. But this is simultaneously one and different. When this tape recorder will play, it will play exactly I am speaking to you. There will be no difference of voice. If somebody hears from other room, he'll understand that Swamiji's speaking, but still, that speaking is different from me. Because my energy is working there. Similarly, there are two kinds of energies. Just like when I am speaking, this is my real energy, and when this tape recorder will speak, that is also my energy, but that is separated energy. Similarly, this material manifestation is separated energy, and there is direct energy. The direct... This material energy, separated energy, is the reflection of the direct energy. Just like when this tape recorder will be replayed it is the reflection of my original speech. Similarly, this material manifestation is a reflection of the original energy, internal energy. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated that perverted reflection. ūrdhva-mūlam adhah-śākham (BG 15.1), perverted, a tree. This cosmic manifestation is compared just like a tree with root upwards. That means perverted. Have you seen a tree upwards, root?
Simultaneously one and different (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"nondifferent and different simultaneously"
|"one and different"
|"one with and different"
|"oneness and difference"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa.
Allen Ginsberg: If He's not apprehensible by senses...
Prabhupāda: No. Why not senses? This is Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa. But at the same time... This is the philosophy of Lord Caitanya. Acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different. That is very easy... Suppose this is gold. But this gold is not the gold mine. There is a difference. It is gold. Similarly, everything is Kṛṣṇa, but still is different from Kṛṣṇa. That is explained in Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ sarvedam akhilaṁ jagat. Eka-sthānī sthitasyajñer jyotsnā vistāriṇī yathā, parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ sarvedam akhilaṁ jagat. The same example, that the sun. The sun is, sun-god is situated one place, but it is fiery. Blazing fire. Its heat and light is expanded. You see practically, the heat and light. So whatever this material existence is the sunlight, sunshine. Everything existing on sunshine. It is scientific. Your electricity, your this, that, whatever you take it is all sunshine. All these planets are moving, rotating on the sunshine. Heat. If heat is taken away immediately whole thing spoiled. Therefore everything is resting on the energy of the sunshine, but if you say that "Then let me find out the sun-god in the sunshine," that you will have to go there.
Hayagrīva: The Christians, I think they say, God is more than His creation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly. This creation is only a part of manifestation of His energy. Insignificant. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya.
Revatīnandana: The distinction between the soul and the body?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything. We distinguish matter and spirit. That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya bhedābheda tattva, inconceivable one and different, simultaneously.
Śyāmasundara: When you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a living entity with a small body. Each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: It takes a small body made out of matter.
Prabhupāda: But that body means ignorance. Śarīra avidyā jāla. This body is nothing but a network of ignorance.
Śyāmasundara: So then myself, I organize all these smaller cells. I organize them into my big body.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, when you are covered, that is material. You try to understand. Covered by something. The same example. The sunshine is there, it is covered now. That covering also creation of the sunshine. So therefore the covering has no separate existence. Originally, the sunshine is everything. Is it clear?
Śyāmasundara: So how do I create matter that is my body? How do I create...
Prabhupāda: It has stopped, but maybe just like the fan is stopped, but still moving. Like that.
Revatīnandana: So there are many different manifestations of energies. It is the oneness that they're all Kṛṣṇa's energies. But there is also diversities.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say acintya bhedābheda. You cannot clearly distinguish. It is one and different, at the same time. It is spirit and not spirit. You have to take it like that.
Śyāmasundara: Somehow or other, we create our own ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Everything is like that. Everything is spirit but at the same time, not spirit. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4), "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." How is that everything is in Kṛṣṇa? How Kṛṣṇa is not there? He says like that.
Revatīnandana: Yes. He says because you can't see Him there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Kṛṣṇa, that is matter.
Śyāmasundara: I want to clear this up. Just like this table. It is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one...
Prabhupāda: Atom. Millions of atoms. But Kṛṣṇa says, "I am within the atom." So how you can say Kṛṣṇa is not there?
Revatīnandana: Now you were also telling me that Kṛṣṇa is in the atom as the jīva expansion.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is also... Everything is there. But actually, it is Kṛṣṇa, but we cannot see. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. The whole cosmic manifestation is Kṛṣṇa but it appears it is different from Kṛṣṇa. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. This is acintya-bhedābheda. So unless we accept the thesis or philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different... Inconceivable. For us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable, acintya. But from theoretical or by logical conclusion, everything is one: Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair I am. I am the hair, but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like that. This is called acintya-bhedābheda, inconceivable.
Revatīnandana: A related question also: just like there is at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction, then, between the spirit...
Prabhupāda: That distinction you cannot make clear.
Revatīnandana: I know. But still it's, not clear, but clear, there is some distinction, where a distinction...
Prabhupāda: Distinction, there is distinction, there is no distinction.
Revatīnandana: Yes, simultaneously.
Prabhupāda: Simultaneous. Now, which one will we accept? Therefore inconceivable.
Śyāmasundara: You can't accept one or the other; you have to accept them both.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But God means He's above mistake,
Dr. Weir: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...above the illusion, above cheating, above imperfection. This is God.
Śyāmasundara: There's a central premise that everything is simultaneously one and different. Just like flowers—there are many flowers, roses, but within the flowers there is variety.
Mensa Member: But still it raises the danger of another (indistinct), it really does. This is a very (indistinct) you're trying to make but it's impossible to talk about physics in the language of chemistry. It's impossible, so when...
Śyāmasundara: So when he says there's a gradation, that we see gradation, that the soul is higher than the body, this is also (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Soul is higher than the body, mind and intelligence.
Dr. Weir: Yes. But that is only because we've learned, I think, when we were small to look up to higher people...
Mensa Member: (indistinct) on each side of them and in the middle, on the other side, before and after...
Dr. Weir: This is the..., you see, unconsciously you grow up with all these sort of prejudices, which are necessary. You've got to have some sort of time scale, you've got to have some sort of measuring scale and therefore you tend to look up and therefore you think highly of more important (indistinct), you talk about high position, you don't think of chaps sitting on the fence...
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: So what is the significance of this energy being separated from Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Separated means this is made out of the body of the cow, but is is not cow. That is separation.
Bob: So this earth and all is made out of Kṛṣṇa, but is not Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: It is not Kṛṣṇa. Or you can say, Kṛṣṇa and not Kṛṣṇa simultaneously. That is our philosophy. One and different. You cannot say different because these things without Kṛṣṇa has no existence. At the same time you cannot say, "Then let me worship water. Why Kṛṣṇa?" That the pantheists, they say, that "Because everything is God, so whatever I take, that is God worship." The Rama-Krishna Mission says like that. But that's wrong.
Bob: The Rama-Krishna Mission says that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the Māyāvādīs. "Because everything is made of God, therefore everything is God." That is their... But our philosophy is everything is God, but not God also.
Bob: So what on earth is God? Is there anything on earth that is God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is made out of the energy of God. (pause) But (that) does not mean that anything you worship, you worship God.
Bob: So what is on earth, though, is not māyā. It is...
Prabhupāda: māyā means energy.
Bob: It means energy.
Prabhupāda: Same. That is acintya-bhedābheda philosophy. That everything is one and different simultaneously.
Bob: Now, if I may ask another question on this?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: The soul may be, I have considered, somewhat a part of God. But my soul I do not feel, but at times I think I feel God. It's... I'm here maybe, and you may say God is here. If the soul is inside me, then should I be able to feel God inside me? Not all of God I mean, but a...
Prabhupāda: Part of God.
Bob: Yeah. Not to mean to say that I feel I am God, but to mean to say I feel that I am God...
Prabhupāda: (Speaks to someone in Bengali) (break)
Bob: I was asking Prabhupāda the meaning of the soul being part of God but I don't feel my soul, God in me. But God may be here, separate, separate from me. But should I be able to feel God inside me because my soul is a part of God?
Prabhupāda: Yes, God is inside also.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Just like the sunshine. That is also sun. Is it not? But you cannot say when the sunshine is in the room, you cannot say, "The sun is my room." This is called acintya-bhedābheda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Acintya bheda...?
Prabhupāda: Acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.
Paramahaṁsa: But still you said one can see Kṛṣṇa within the stone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?
Paramahaṁsa: And one can worship Him within the stone or within everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We worship everything. We worship everything, see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. We don't see the tree. We see Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore the tree's also worshipable because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy both are worshipable. Therefore we say Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare means Kṛṣṇa's energy. We worship everything. In our childhood we are taught by our parents, if there is small grain and if it is strut (?) on the feet, we shall pick it up and touch on the forehead. We are taught like this, how to see everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We cannot therefore see anything wasted, anything misused. Why you are preaching? Why we are after so many rascals? That his life is being misused. Let us give him some enlightenment. This is our mission. Or let him go to hell. Just like Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they're engaged in meditation or in the Himalayas, but we have come to Los Angeles. Why? This is our mission. Oh, these things, these people are being misused under māyā, let him gain some enlightenment. This is our mission. We are teaching that, how to utilize everything for Kṛṣṇa. How to understand Kṛṣṇa in everything. That is our mission. See Kṛṣṇa in everything. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra. Everything is there in Bhagavad-gītā, why don't you read? Sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati, yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra, "Anyone who sees Me everywhere and sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati... and everything in Me, he's perfect."
Prabhupāda: My relationship is just like father and the son. The son is not different from the father; at the same time, he is different from the father.
Mr. Wadell: Yes...
Prabhupāda: The same relationship. We are all sons of God. Therefore, simultaneously, we are one and different. As son, the ingredient, the same. But he is father, we are son, we are different. This is called the philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda. Bheda means different, and abheda means one. So simultaneously one and different.
Mr. Wadell: May I ask you another question, which is, I have a mortal father, a man, who you know my parents, father and mother. Do you think that my father is in any way different in his parentage of me from God in His parentage of me.
Prabhupāda: No, everyone. Not only your father, your grandfather, your, or grandson, the same relationship: simultaneously one and different... Because we are spirit soul and God is the supreme soul. All the souls have come, emanated from Him. He is the supreme soul and Paramātmā. The exact word used in the Vedic language, Paramātmā, Parabrahma, Parameśvara. This word param. Param means supreme.
Mr. Wadell: I accept that without any trouble. There's no...
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, no. That, Vedas does not say. Veda is not so nonsense.
Dr. Patel: Then it is (indistinct) very differently I understand it.
Prabhupāda: No, no. How you can say everything is the sa...? There is varieties. This is called acintya-bhedābheda-tattva philosophy. Simultaneously one and different. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy. Acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: That is a philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like my the same example: the water is matter, and this is also matter. As matter, they're one, but as water, it is different; as land, it is different. This is simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: Bheda?
Guest (3): Bheda abheda. (break
Prabhupāda: (laughs) ...thinking abheda. You are simply thinking that... That is your deficiency.
Dr. Patel: No, no. I will try to understand your bheda also. But abheda is more important for the present for me.
Prabhupāda: No. That means you are less.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind become the least. Why less?
Prabhupāda: That is...
Dr. Patel: Māyāvāda! Māyāvāda, no?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Māyāvāda. (chuckles.) Acintya-bheda... This is right philosophy. Acintya-bhedābheda. At the present moment we cannot think of how one thing is simultaneously one and different. Therefore it is acintya.
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...to eleven. Why not give me.
Dr. Patel: No, I have given all contribution. And we start with you when you are here.
Prabhupāda: Then Bhāgavata is compared to the body of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa worships begins from the feet.
Dr. Patel: I started and come up to His mouth.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is avidhi-pūrvakam.
Dr. Patel: Avidhi... Then let me do it for avidhi-pūrvak, then I'll do it, vidhi-pūrvakam.
Prabhupāda: Then you'll never understand. Yes, you'll never understand.
Bhāgavata: Like you were saying last night, Prabhupāda... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...in the body, so we have to behave duality. (laughter) You cannot say oneness. When you are liberated from the body, that is another thing. For practical purposes... This philosophy was discussed by the mother of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu when He was a child, this philosophy. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was given very nice sweetmeats to eat. So instead of eating the sweetmeat, He was eating the dirt. So mother said, "My dear child, why You are eating dirt? I have given You sandeśa." "Mother, what is the difference between this dirt and sandeśa? It is all Brahman." You see? So His mother said, "My dear child, You are all right. Just like this is earth, and there is earthen pot. So if you want to keep water, you cannot throw the water on the ground. You have to take the earthen pot." So this philosophy of oneness and difference was already discussed when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a child. Simultaneously one and different. Yes. Earthen pot and earth, actually, from the material point of view, they're the same thing. But if you want to keep water you cannot keep it on the ground. You have to take to the jug. (Hindi) (break)
Dr. Patel: I promise you I won't. Because you are trying to choke me.
Prabhupāda: No, I am not... We should have discussion. That is nice.
Dr. Patel: Shall we?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Under your command?
Prabhupāda: This is the difference between Vaiṣṇava school and Māyāvādī school. Advaita-vāda and dvaita-vāda. They become very strong, at the same time, remain servant.
Dr. Patel: These śuddhādvaita-vādīs, their upper garment and lower garment the same as... (break) ...you call Māyāvādīs, they say that this is all humbug and nothing and nonexistence. They... (break) ...both are one and both are right and both are existent and both are... There is no illusion, as you say. The same thing.
Prabhupāda: Simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: That is a little (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So unless you accept this difference, then it is Māyāvāda. Simply oneness is Māyāvāda.
Dr. Patel: That's right. You may... You accept one and the same, separate both or another explana..., another, only Kṛṣṇa knows and nobody knows.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, why Kṛṣṇa knows? One who is Kṛṣṇa's devotee, he knows also.
Dr. Patel: All are Vaiṣṇava devotees, aren't they?
Prabhupāda: No, no. This is Māyāvāda. Not all of.
Dr. Patel: Ācchā. Vallabhācārya's devotees, Vaiṣṇavas are not...?
Prabhupāda: Vallabhācārya is a sampradāya.
Dr. Patel: But are they not Vaiṣṇavas?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different. (break) ...covering of the universe. There are seven coverings. Each covering is ten times bigger than the one. Again, the seven elements...
Girirāja: So at night when we look up, everything that we see is within this universe.
Prabhupāda: Yes, within this universe, yes. And there are innumerable universes.
Girirāja: "And beyond that non-manifested matter there is the spiritual kingdom. That kingdom is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as supreme and eternal. It is never annihilated. This material nature is subjected..." (break)
Acyutānanda: ...living entities in not non-manifested matter? Are there any living entities in non-mani...
Prabhupāda: No, therefore it is non-manifested. There is no living entities. It is simply covering.
Acyutānanda: So the living entities only appear within the universe, not outside the universes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, in the spiritual world there are living entities.
Acyutānanda: But in the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, in the covering, in the...
Acyutānanda: Is there some part of Lord Śiva that is there in between?
Prabhupāda: Not in between. That is also after that. Sadā-ṣiva. Just on the border, on the border.
Bhāgavata: On the border. Before you reach earth, the element of earth.
Prabhupāda: Yes. On the border between spiritual world and material world.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is everything; again Kṛṣṇa is... That is... What is the verse? mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā: "I am spread all over the universe in My impersonal feature." Jagad avyakta-mūrti..., mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). "Everything is in Me." Nāhaṁ te..., "But I am not there." This is called simultaneously one and different. Acintya-bheda, that one has to understand. Where there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is different from Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, everything is Kṛṣṇa.
Bhagavān: The other religions do not give any...
Prabhupāda: We are not talking of religions. We are talking of science.
Bhagavān: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So don't bring in any religion. A type of religion is made, "Believe something blindly." So that is not our concern. We are talking of the science. If I say that stone is also Kṛṣṇa, is not that the science?
Bhagavān: It's the science of how God's energies are working.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if I say heat is also fire. Is there any wrong?
Bhagavān: No.
Prabhupāda: Is there any wrong?
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Ultimately, just like the government is imperson, but ultimately the president is person. The government is going on under the order of the president. Therefore impersonal government is not so important as the personal president is important. Another example: just like the sun, and the sunshine, and the sun-god, three things. The sunshine is impersonal, and the sun globe is localized, and within the sun globe there is sun-god. So in one sense they are all one, means heat and light, but the sunshine is different from the sun globe. When... Just like here is sunshine in this room, but that is not sun globe. Therefore, simultaneously, they are one and different. Is it clear? Any question about this?
Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He says that if God is a person, how can we understand, as there's a common saying that God is and also is not?
Prabhupāda: God is person. That I have already explained, that the government is impersonal, the president is person, but the president is more important than the whole government. Just like a man in the court of the government is condemned to die. So there is no law in the government which can save him. But if the president shows him mercy, he can save him. Therefore, the president is more powerful than all the laws in the government. Therefore he is important. What does he say?
Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He said there are many examples where the laws of the government are superior to the president. For example, in America where Nixon was pulled down by the laws.
Prabhupāda: All of them. That's all right, but comparatively, the sun-god is the source of everything. Therefore he is important. Therefore God is expanded by His energy. And God is the energetic. But comparatively, although there is no difference between the energy and the energetic, the energetic is more important than the energy. When there is sunshine, it is to be understood that sun globe is there and the sun-god is there. But in this sense the sun-god, the sun globe and the sunshine, they are not different, one, because every one of them has the same quality, heat and light. But still, here is the sunshine. It does not mean the sun-god or the sun globe is here. The sun globe is 93,000,000 miles away from us. So therefore, it is to be understood, they are simultaneously one and different. This is the philosophy.
Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He said that you have said that God expands, but this implies that God modifies Himself or changes.
Prabhupāda: No. That is God. He can expand unlimitedly; still, He remains as He is. That is, means, unlimited. Just like if you have got hundred dollars in your pocket, then if it is spent, one dollar, one dollar, one dollar, then ultimately you become zero. But about God it is said, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam eva avaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation). That means you take hundred dollars. Still, the hundred dollar is there. Similarly, God as He is, He can expand Himself in millions and millions separately; still, He is the same million. That is called God. If we take God in our conception, that "I have got hundred dollars. I spend hundred dollars. It is zero," but God is not like that. God can expand Himself as God unlimitedly; still, He remains the same. There is another nice example. Just like you take one candle and you lit up another candle, you lit up another candle, another candle and millions of candle, but this candle remains the same powerful, and all the candles lit up, they are also same power. But for our understanding, we take the original candle as first candle, the next as second candle, the third, fourth, fifth, millions. But each candle is equally powerful, and the original candle is still there. So by this expansion, God does not diminishes. That is the meaning of God, and that is the meaning of unlimited.
Prabhupāda: Evolution? No, there is no evolution. The part is part eternally, and the whole is whole eternally.
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): So she's asking does that mean that one does not integrate himself with the whole when he becomes evolved?
Prabhupāda: No, you are already in the whole. What is that?
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She says, "Therefore we're all one."
Prabhupāda: One and different, that is our philosophy. Just like the one small screw is in the machine. So the whole is one, but the small screw is not equal to the whole machine. But the screw cannot be called the whole machine.
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She said, "We are part of this whole."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is, that is. We also. Mamaivāṁśo jīvabhūtaḥ jīva-loka sanātanaḥ. Find out.
Hṛdayānanda:
- mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke
- jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ
- manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi
- prakṛti-sthāni karṣati
- (BG 15.7)
- (reads translation in Spanish)
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She said they admit the same thing. They want to know if...
Prabhupāda: No, no, try to understand. Just like here is a son, and here is a father. So there is no difference because the son is the expansion of the body of the father. So how the body and expansion of the body can be different? They are one. But still, in relationship, son is son, father is father. In relationship... Just like the mother is there, and her relationship with husband is different from her relationship with her son. In that sense, the son and the father, different, but in quality they are one because son is the expansion of the father's body. Therefore, simultaneously, they are one and different. That is real understanding. So if the son sometimes says, "I am one with the father," there is no controversy because he is one in quality.
Guest (3): This tradition of the names was a tradition that was developed for two thousand years, beginning with the monks, and which most Christians are really not aware of, that through this japa a man can come to consciousness of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, when one comes to God consciousness. And the relationship is "God is great; we are subordinate." Just like the father is the maintainer, and the son is maintained. Although the father and the son of the same quality, still, the relationship is the father is the maintainer, and the son is maintained.
Guest (5): That's, of course, not the orthodox Christian interpretation, that's supposed to be. It's very clear by the time the decrees were worked out that Jesus is not a creature. He's incarnate God.
Guest (6): You say that we are creatures, and we are subordinate to God, and I can understand that. Christ was not created.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that means God is different from you; otherwise how you can surrender to Him?
Ānanda-mārga woman: Right. When I am out, off in the world, when my mind is working, then I'm separate from God. I have made myself separate from God by the senses, by my mind, thinking. But then, when I...
Prabhupāda: Then you have to accept that you are one and different from God simultaneously. That is the conclusion, that you say sometimes that you are one, and at the same time you say different, therefore the philosophy comes to this point, that you are simultaneously one and different from God.
Ānanda-mārga woman: The whole thing is that the God is inside of me...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ānanda-mārga woman: ...and for me to realize it, to become one with it, to realize it, not to be away from it, I have it...
Prabhupāda: Then who will realize? You are different to realize. You say the God is within you. Therefore God is different from you, but He is within you. You require to realize. Therefore you are different from God. Otherwise there is no question of realization.
Prabhupāda: That I can understand, that sometimes you realize that you are one, and sometimes you realize that you are different. That means simultaneously you are one and different from God. This is the conclusion. Acintya-bhedābheda. This is the philosophy, acintya, inconceivable, one and different, one because we are one in quality, and different in quantity. That is our position. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānṁ. The Vedic information is like that, that He is the Supreme Being amongst all beings. He is also being, we are also being, but He is the Supreme Being. So as being, we are one, but as Supreme and subordinate, we are different. This is the conclusion. As being, living being, we are one. That is not very difficult. Just like in your country the king, the Shah, he is also a being and you are also a being. But he is the supreme being in this country. Although as human being you are equal, but so far his power, his position is concerned, he is different. Similarly, as being, we are one with God, but so far the power and position is concerned, He is too big, the great. We are subordinate. This is our position. That is the right conclusion.
Dr. Movebhed: Is that really the right conclusion?
Prabhupāda: Yes, two bodies, just like two dresses. You are differently dressed, I am differently dressed, but that does not mean that we are one. We are one as ātmā. Just like you are Australian, I am Indian, but as human being we are one. But as Australian, as Indian, we are different. Therefore we are one and different at the same time.
Kim: Is the ātman...
Prabhupāda: Ātmā as spirit soul is one.
Kim: Is one.
Prabhupāda: But as individual soul they are different.
Kim: And the ātman is just with respect to consciousness, or can we talk about...
Prabhupāda: No.
Kim: ...an ātman without consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Consciousness is the symptom of ātmā. Because the ātmā is within your body, therefore your consciousness is there. Now, because the ātmā is within the body, if I pinch or if you pinch my body, I feel pains and pleasures. As soon as the ātmā is not there, it will be cut with a chopper, there is no protest. So, that ātmā is present within this body, that is understood by the presence of consciousness. Just like we are here in this room, but this light is the reflection of the sunshine. We understand there is sun in the sky. The light and heat we are feeling, that means the sun is in the sky. Similarly, our consciousness and knowledge, etc., are there, that means that the ātmā is there. The same ātmā, when it will go out of this body, there will be no more consciousness, no more knowledge, no more feelings of pains and pleasures.
Prabhupāda: Not imitation, actually we have got. Just like, another example, gold and a particle of gold, a small fragmentary, that will be called gold, but not the gold equal to the mine.
Jesuit: No.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the philosophy is acintya-bhedābheda, inconceivable one and different simultaneously. One in quality, but different in quantity. God's power... I have got some creative power, and God has got creative power. So the creative power is there. But God has created millions of the planets that floating in the air and we have created a 747 airplane, we want to take more credit than God. That is our foolishness.
Jesuit: Oh, I say that is man's sin, if you like, is that he prides himself on his achievements.
Prabhupāda: That is false pride. The scientist, the modern scientists, they are taking false pride that there is no need of God, we are now creating...
Jesuit: Some of them are, not all...
Prabhupāda: Some of the fools, not all fools, but some of the fools declaring themselves as scientists, "There is no God." We can (indistinct).
Jesuit: Let me see if I can understand what you mean by God.
Prabhupāda: God means all-powerful, the great. You say also, "The great."
Jesuit: I'd say all-powerful, omnipotent, the great, yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like I have got so many branches, hundred branches. So everyone knows that I am something, but that does not mean I am present everywhere. My student(?) has got this tape..., hundreds of thousands of tape recorders to record my speech and then you speak the same thing that I am speaking, but I am not there. And that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.
- mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ
- jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
- mat sthāni sarva bhūtāni
- na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ
- (BG 9.4)
Hm? Find out. Everything is God but God is not everything. He is simultaneously one and different. We therefore say that everything is God but not that everything is..., not that God is everywhere. But because everything is God, everything, with everything you can realize God.
Prof. Hopkins: So that the...
Brahmānanda:
- mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ
- jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
- mat sthāni sarva bhūtāni
- na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ
- (BG 9.4)
"By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All things are in Me but I am not in them."
Prof. Hopkins: So the failure is a failure to go beyond.
Prabhupāda: No, by nature, he is not mixed up with these material things, but he is entrapped by his free will. Just like we are staying here. We are not bound to stay here, but we have come here. Nobody has forced us to come here.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So is that philosophy, simultaneously one and different...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...that acintya-bhedābheda is also applicable in the case of...
Prabhupāda: No, soul never mixes with the matter. Now I have come here, I am not mixed up with this jungle.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it looks like it...
Prabhupāda: It looks like. That is another thing. Asaṅgo 'yaṁ puruṣaḥ. The Vedic injunction is" "The puruṣa, the soul, is never complicated or mixed up with this." Because just like oil and water, it never mixes. The oil keeps its separate identity in water.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. But if you put in a body, though they cannot be mixed, but they can stay together. Like in a chemical laboratory we take a test tube. In the test tube I can mix two solutions like, for example, mercury and water and oil. They will not mix, but they will stay in the same test tube. But a man who knows about the art of separating those three mixtures can do it very nicely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śiva is next to God. Just like yogurt, dahi. You know dahi? What is this dahi? Milk. But it is not milk. Dahi is not anything but milk, but it is not milk. Similarly, Lord Śiva is nothing but Viṣṇu, but it is not Viṣṇu. Is it clear now? You can say, "Well, dahi is nothing but milk." Yes. But it is not milk. If instead of milk you take dahi, the result will be different. And if you take milk instead of dahi, that is..., that will be different, although the milk and dahi is the same thing, same ingredients. So you have to understand in that way. Lord Śiva is nondifferent from the Supreme Lord. Everyone is nondifferent from Supreme Lord, but he's still different. This is the perfect philosophy, acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.
Indian man (7): Swamijī, in all the temples in Mauritius, the supreme deity...
Prabhupāda: Supreme Deity is Viṣṇu.
Indian man (7): But we consider Lord Śiva to be the supreme deity because we...
Prabhupāda: But that is your lack of knowledge. I have already explained that, that yogurt is not different from milk. It is milk but still, it is not milk. You have to understand like that. Lord Śiva is not different from Viṣṇu, but he's still not Viṣṇu.
Indian man (7): No, but do we offer the prayer first to Śiva...?
Prabhupāda: That you do. There is no harm. Lord Śiva is also called Mahādeva. Amongst the demigods, he is the chief. So if you worship Lord Śiva... We also worship Śiva. It is not that we disrespect Śiva. We offer our utmost respect to Lord Śiva. But that does not mean that he is the Supreme Lord.
Indian man (7): The difference that is there, Swamijī...
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Acyutānanda: So we are one.
Prabhupāda: Why one? You are one and different, bhedābheda, acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, simultaneously one and different. Just like this. This is one and different. The children have come from the body—that is one—but still, they are different. Even in the hogs and pigs the acintya-bhedābheda-tattva is there. (break) The word should be nābheda sanātana.
Acyutānanda: (break) It is different only during the manifestation of prakṛti, but actually it is not...
Prabhupāda: Just like in Vṛndāvana. They are one, but still, there are trees, there are flowers, there are water, there are calves, there are cows, there are gopīs, but they are all one. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ (Bs. 5.37). All of them are ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Nirviśeṣavādīs..., it is not nirviśeṣavāda. Sa-viśeṣa. What is this? (break) Just see, it is already "Hare Kṛṣṇa," known.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Foundation was laid in December '74, but no work has been done since then.
Prabhupāda: So why not let us have this land? We can develop.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very nice land, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The moon.
Gurudāsa: Acintya-bhedābheda-tattva.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Gurudāsa: It seems to be one and different simultaneously.
Prabhupāda: No, no, not like that point. (laughs)
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, are the planets shaped liked balls or more like plates? Because it's, it's hard to understand, 'cause they're called dvīpas, "islands." Their roundness is the roundness of a plate or like a ball?
Prabhupāda: Which one?
Satsvarūpa: The earth planet?
Prabhupāda: If it is like a tree, then these things can be as dvīpa, island.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. You know...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The scientists are getting smashed to bits by your statements, Śrīla Prabhupāda. This destroys their whole theory. Orbs, round spheres. I think that this Māyāpur building, we must build a big planetarium in it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that I am going to do, Vedic planetarium.
Prabhupāda: ...production of is external. Bahir-aṅga-śakti. But the śakti, the energy, is coming from the Supreme. Just like here we find this place is shadow and that place is sunshine. Both these places are due to the sun. When there is no sun there is no such distinction that "This is shining, sunny, and this is shadow." So this distinction is there so long we do not know the real source. But if we know the real source, we can understand that this distinction is temporary. Actually the energy is coming from the Supreme. So shadow has come from Supreme, and light has also come from the Supreme. So there is no distinction, ultimately. Just like earring, golden, manufactured from gold, and gold which is not manufactured. So this distinction-manufactured or not manufactured, secondary. But really the earring is also gold, and the lump of gold is also gold. So why should we say that earring is false? It is also gold. In relationship with the supreme source, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), there is no such distinction. In another place, while Vyāsadeva was instructed by Nārada, he said, idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaro. This viśva, the virāṭ-rūpa, is also Bhagavān, but it appears different from Him. Just like the shadow appears different from the sunshine, but actually, taking the central point of emanation, it is different manifestation. That's all. Tree—there are so many varieties. One is trunk, one is branch, one is twig, one is leaf, one is.... So the varieties are there, but the tree is one, the root. So ultimately there is no variety, only one. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. The difference is the Māyāvādīs, they abruptly say everything is one. Not everything is one. The trunk is not one with the leaf, but ultimately because the root is the cause, so there is no difference between the trunk and the leaf. This is acintya-bhedābheda philosophy, simultaneously one and different. On the whole, everything is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dvaita and advaita. This is the process of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, to bring all the dvaitas and advaitas in one platform. To understand that he is essentially servant of God. The Advaitas, they are wrongly thinking that he is God himself. That is wrong, or not the proper way of thinking. How you can become God? God is ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam, full with six opulences, all-powerful, all-strength, all-beauty, all opulent. So this is artificial, to think to become God. And... This is Advaita. And Dvaitas, they think that one is different from God, God is separate from the living entity. But actually, from the Bhagavad-gītā we understand that God is always the Supreme and the living entities, they are subordinate. And in the Vedas also it is said, nityo nityānaṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Both of them are living entities, but God is the chief. The difference between the two, that God maintains other living entities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That is a fact. We are maintained and God is the maintainer. We are predominated, we are not independent, and God is predominator. But because the predominated living entities, they are part and parcel of God, therefore in quality they are one. This is acintya-bhedābheda, one and different. The living entity is one in the sense because he is part and parcel of God. So if God is gold, the living entity is also gold. That is one in quality. But god is great and we are minute, small. In that way we are different. Now, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has enunciated acintya-bhedābheda, inconceivable, simultaneously one and different. That is real philosophy. So on this philosophy everyone can come if they are reasonable. If they remain unreasonably stuck up in their own concocted philosophy, then it is difficult. Otherwise this is the fact, that the living entity is eternally part and parcel of God. Sanātana. What is that verse? Find out. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātana (BG 15.7). Fifteenth chapter.
Prabhupāda: What is called? Arādhyo bhagavān vrajeṣa-tanāya tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that first of all Kṛṣṇa, Vrajendra-nandana, the son of Nanada Mahārāja, He is arādhya. Tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. And His dhāma, His abode, Vṛndāvana, is also worshipable. They are equal. Vṛndāvana-dhāma and Kṛṣṇa, they are equal. So these are higher standard of understanding. Unless one is devotee, purified, he cannot understand that to become one with God is not the sublime idea. In Vṛndāvana one who wants to become the father or mother of God, to control God, that these Māyāvādīs cannot understand, Advaitavādīs. This is to be understood by the pure devotion, devotees. What is the benefit to become equal with God? Just become.... equal.... Other Vaiṣṇava philosophies they could not explain our relationship with God. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained the higher relationship with God. That is called vatsalya-rasa and madhurya-rasa. Especially madhurya-rasa. Anarpita carīṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatirṇaḥ kalau samarpayitum unnatojvala-rasāṁ sva bhakti śriyam. Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave information of the madhurya-rasa, that our relationship can be with Kṛṣṇa in conjugal love. So unless one comes to the platform of devotional service, one cannot understand. But for general understanding this philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda, simultaneously one and different.... That is explained in this verse. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). The living entities are part and parcel of God. So if God is gold, then living entities are also gold. This is equality in quality. But God is great, and we are always subordinate. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. We are protected, we are maintained, we are predominated. That is our position. We cannot attain the position of predominator. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Therefore God and you are different. That is dvaita-vāda. You are different...
Mr. Malhotra: Why at all this started? Why at all, say millions, trillions years back, how it started that God created this world? Then all are one and different.
Prabhupāda: Who created?
Mr. Malhotra: God.
Prabhupāda: So God is there. So God, you are created or you are subordinate to God? You are also there. So nitya, you are also existing eternally, and God is also eternally existing. But the difference between you and God is that God is maintaining everything and you are being maintained. That is the difference. You are one of the items which is maintained by God.
Mr. Malhotra: As long as I continue my identity that "I am so and so, I am this body," or "I am a person, or ātmā seated in this body, or dwelling in this body," when I dislodge my body from ātmā, then what is the position?
Prabhupāda: You are different from the body. You are different from the body. You are soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The body is temporary, you are eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You are nityaḥ śāśvata. You are never killed even after the destruction of the body. That should... That is real understanding, that I am not this body. After annihilation of this body, I shall continue. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). You should know that you are eternal part and parcel of God. God is eternal. Just like gold and a small particle of gold, both of them are gold. A small particle of gold, it is also gold, but not equal to the gold mine. That is real understanding. And because you are little gold...
| Page Title: | Simultaneously one and different (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 18 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=33, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 33 |