Prabhupāda: We are making this preaching work of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If somebody comes he's Kṛṣṇa's, he's not mine. These boys serving me, not for my sense gratification, for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Similarly, if he goes to serve a master, he serves the master for the sense gratification of the particular person. Therefore he pays him. So he does not serve that master. He serves that payment. And what is that payment? For his sense gratification. Therefore he serves his sense gratification. The karma is serving one's sense gratification. And bhakti is serving Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied in this way. We work in that way. So it is not karma. And as soon as they'll work: "Oh, I'll get this money and satisfy my senses." That is karma. So I become subject to the result. It may be good or bad. But when you work for Kṛṣṇa it is all good. There is no question of bad. And all good goes to the All Good. I'm simply His eternal servant. That's all. Another example: this finger takes some foodstuff and gives to the stomach. So when the stomach is satisfied, the finger is satisfied automatically. It does not require to take separately any food. But the karmis are trying to enjoy themselves just like the finger. If it takes a nice cake and if he thinks that why shall I give it to the stomach? So it cannot eat. It simply spoils. That's all. So we are spoiling our energy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Sense gratification (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Expressions researched:
"gratification of the senses"
|"gratifying his senses"
|"gratifying me senses"
|"gratifying my senses"
|"gratifying our senses"
|"gratifying senses"
|"gratifying the senses"
|"gratifying their senses"
|"gratifying your senses"
|"sense gratification"
|"sensual gratification"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Guru means not exactly teacher. Guru, the word, means heavy. Heavy. H-e-a-v-y, heavy.
Interviewer: Is guru and swami the same thing?
Prabhupāda: Swami means practically the same idea. Swami means the master of the senses. One who has not control over senses, he cannot become guru. The renounced order means he's strictly away from all kinds of sense gratification, especially sex life. Therefore, he's called swami. Swami means the master. One who has become the master of the senses, he can become the spiritual master of the society. That is the idea.
Interviewer: The swami... Now did I understand you to say the swami has no sex life?
Prabhupāda: No, certainly not.
Interviewer: Certainly not. All right, now when you...
Prabhupāda: Well, actually sex life is allowed only to the householders. According to Vedic culture, sex life is restricted. There are four divisions of society. The brahmacārī is strictly forbidden for sex life. The vānaprastha, they are also forbidden for sex life, and the sannyāsī, they are also forbidden for sex life. So out of four divisions, three divisions are strictly forbidden for sex life. Only the householders they can have restricted sex life with married wife simply for begetting children. That is the Vedic culture.
Pradyumna: What is that type of pleasure that is material pleasure, that a person feels engaged in material pursuit. He feel some kind of pleasure. It's not very much pleasure, but it's some pleasure. What is that pleasure made of? Because if he is enjoying sense gratification...
Prabhupāda: That is pleasure. That is material pleasure. Material pleasure means sex pleasure. That's all. The end of material pleasure, the topmost material pleasure, is sex pleasure. So all these materialists, they are trying to get pleasure from the sex life. In this way, that way, that way, that way, that way. That's all. Because they have no other information. Material pleasure means sex pleasure. Sex pleasure, tongue pleasure. They have manufactured so many things. That gentleman was sitting and asking "Can I smoke?" The tongue is agitating for... "Please, please give me one cigarette. One cigarette." He became disturbed. And we said, "No. You cannot smoke." This is material pleasure. You train up your senses in such a way that it becomes addicted. It cannot get out of the entanglement. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness will save you. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). They are all explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The material pleasure means sexual intercourse. That's all. That is the sum and substance of pleasure. That's all.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: But it is the mission of human life to come to that point. So at least there must be some center or institution who may give them this idea. It is not that everyone will come. Just like there are many educational department. I know in Calcutta in our boyhood age, at that time Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee was vice-president. So he opened some classes in the university. In each class there were four or five professors, and at that time the professors' salary was 1300 dollar, 1400 dollar. And the fees were collected, at most thirty-six dollar per month. You see? But still the classes were to be maintained because the ideal must be there. So our mission is the intelligent persons of the world may know that this is not, simply seeking after sense gratification is not the aim of human life. Human life is meant by... Just like Bhāgavata says, jīvasya tattva-jijnasa. Vedānta says, athāto brahma jijñāsā. The same thing. Bhāgavata is nothing but explanation of Vedānta. So Vedānta says that this human form of life is meant for inquiring about Brahman. Atha ataḥ. Now. Atha means now. Atha, hereafter. That means after passing through all animalistic way of life, when a man comes to the stage of civilized life, perfect civilized life, at that time his business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth, what is the Absolute Truth. That is the whole Vedānta philosophy, "What is that Absolute Truth?" The same thing is explained in Bhāgavata, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsa. Jīvasya means all living entities. The main business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. So people, by education they are misled. Instead of getting them to the highest topmost stage, to the platform of inquiring about the Absolute, they are giving facilities how you can satisfy your senses nicely.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: ...not sentimental. There is no religion, and still, they are professing, "I profess this religion," Where is your religion? If actually there was religion in the human society, why there are so many problems? There should not have been so many problems. The problems are in the animal society. Why there should be problem in human society? Because they have given up the real principles. They are simply animals. Therefore there are so many problems. Actually there is no problem. Even they are not animal. Less than animal. In animal society there is no problem. There is problem, but not so acute. They are free. Just like the ducks, the pigeons, they fly from one country to another. They have no problem of immigration department, passport, or visa. They have no problem. These rascals should understand that they have created problem on account of their animalistic, less than animalistic civilization. There is no limit of sense gratification. The sense gratification, homosex, they are supporting. Just see. Just see. At least, in animal society there is no homosex. They have created homosex, and that is being passed by the priest, the religious heads. You know that?
Prabhupāda: The conclusion comes in this way, that to remain animals, scientific animals, that's all. The propensities are the same, sense gratification, but the man is trying to make it scientific. That means to remain animal but become scientific, that's all, scientific animal.
Dr. Weir: But at the same time he's a spiritual animal. It's interesting to find that in this twentieth century, science is rather replacing the spirituality. You know people in the past gave religion an enormous importance and science was practically unknown. Now they're going the other way around.
Prabhupāda: That scientific spirituality, that is advancement more than the animals. Otherwise if you simply remain on the (indistinct) eating, sleeping, mating and defending scientifically, you remain animal. But when that scientific research goes to the spiritual thing that is special prerogative of the human.
Prabhupāda: One noise makes liberation. One noise makes bondage. Noise must be there.
Dr. Weir: But we do have in this modern world a neurotic desire for noise and novelty. The two things together...
Śyāmasundara: There again, novelty and noise, they're sense gratification (indistinct) gratify the senses.
Dr. Weir: Well, don't you think it's also possible to, mind you, that you only have to have novelty because you are not being satisfied.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Dr. Weir: In other words, what's happening is, you're not satisfied so you have to have something to do.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. The senses can never be gratified but always the drive is there to gratify them.
Dr. Weir: If you go to a good play or see a good film or hear some good music you feel satisfied and you don't have to flash back next night because you've seen it before. You have a feeling that, you know...
Śyāmasundara: Even that, a good play or a good music is not very long lasting. When you come out of the theater you're hungry. When your hunger is satisfied then you want some sex life. Then you want to drive home fast. There's always something there to agitate the material senses.
Dr. Weir: The trouble is, aren't you going to lead yourself into this difficulty: if you are spiritually satisfied you would sit down and do nothing and if everybody were doing that we should be rather back to where we started rather than have enough food or music or transport.
Prabhupāda: That is for the voidist, not for the spiritualist. The spiritual life there is enough activity for even scientists. That they do not know. They mean spiritual life is void. That is negation of the present activities only, negative idea. But actually when you stop material activities your real activity begins. That is spiritual life. The spirit, spirit soul is active. You cannot stop it. You cannot stop it. Now it is acting through the coverings of material, matter, therefore it is imperfect activities. But if the activity is uncovered by material things that is real activity.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Bob: That is what?
Prabhupāda: But if he takes money from other and utilizes for his sense gratification, then he goes to hell. Then it is finished. Then he's a cheater. Actually, he is criminal. You cannot take money, a farthing from anyone. (break)
Bob: I think of people I know who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means God.
Bob: Oh, yeah. Are not very, are just slightly God conscious, but still these people are honest to the extent they don't take, they don't take from other people at all and they try to be honest with other people. Will these...
Prabhupāda: But he does not take from other people, but he takes from God.
Prabhupāda: What is that? I could not...
Bhūrijana: The advancement of civilization is leading to just sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Material civilization means sense gratification. That's all.
Bhūrijana: So the hippies have this sense gratification and all the people who are working so hard, they are envious of them, and they use that for their advertising.
Prabhupāda: We say in our śāstras that this sense gratification facility is there to the hogs and dogs, better sense gratification. If you have to enjoy sex life, you'll have to find out some room. Either you go to a hotel or have your own apartment, otherwise you cannot have sex life on the street, although you are too much lusty. But you have to arrange for it. But the dogs and hogs, they have no such restriction. Immediately "Come on. Let us enjoy." So they are better, in better position for sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Because the United States, they are our best customer. A businessman goes to a place... Just like you have come here. Why you have come here? Wherever there is best possibility of doing your business, there you must go. I went to United States because I know these people are not poverty-stricken. And our Indian people, they are now, they have been trained to think like that—they are poverty-stricken. Actually, they are not poverty-stricken, but the leaders have educated them that, "You are all poverty-stricken." This is India's position. So far I knew that it would not be successful in India. The government will not help. The public is educated in a different way. They are after technology. So and "familiarity breeds contempt." They say, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? It is known to us since a long time. What effect it will have?" Many Indian students in foreign countries, they say, "Swamiji, what will this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement benefit us? We want technology." So that is the mentality of the Indians at the present moment. They have lost everything and therefore they are beggars. They have lost their own culture and therefore they are beggars. So I thought it wise that I shall go to a country where there is no poverty. They will learn. They have enough. For material enjoyment, they have got enough. The material enjoyment means money and woman. That is, in America, it is lying on the street. As much as you like, you can take. But they are disgusted with this material enjoyment. Therefore they are coming as hippies. They are coming from very rich family. Their fathers, their grandfathers, are very rich. At least they belong to the richest nation. But they are not satisfied. They are not satisfied. That is the natural sequence. The Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsā. When one has satisfied his senses sufficiently, he is no longer interested in sense gratification.
Śyāmasundara: The whole secret of life has been lost when this civilization was lost. Every knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you try to give them, these foolish men. They are after dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90). Therefore, Bhāgavata begins, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra: (SB 1.1.2) all this cheating, rascaldom, is thrown away. Dharma artha kāma mokṣa. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra. Śrīdhara Swami explains, kaitavaḥ, these are all cheating. The so-called religion, so-called economic development, so-called sense gratification, so-called liberation, they're all cheating.
Śyāmasundara: Because they promise something they don't deliver?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Even if you get it, what do you get? You go to... Supposed you go to church: "God, give us our daily bread." God is giving, then what do you get? Bread is given to the animals also. Why you are going to the church? That is the Communist say, that "We shall give you bread. Why you waste your time with so-called religions?" The politician says that "You want to be happy, there is technology. Why you are going to pray to God? This is all nonsense." They are thinking that. But prayer is not meant for that purpose. Prayer... Just like we are praying, but our prayer is "Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me in Your service," Hare Kṛṣṇa. "O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, O the Lord Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." This is our prayer. We are not going to prayer, "O God, give us our daily bread." And if you get bread, then what do you gain?
Prabhupāda: That's it. Even you get bread, what do you get? Bread is already given even to the animals. That they do not know. Therefore, they take religion for material gain. Dharma artha. And Bhāgavata says, arthasya dharmaikāntasya kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ. When you get money, it is not for satisfaction of your senses. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). And when it is the question of kāma, desire, that does not mean sense gratification. Lābho jīveta yāvatā. Simply you have to accept thing for living. It is not that you shall not eat. You eat, live. Then what for living? Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Your working so hard is not that to develop your material condition of life. You live peacefully without any disturbance of hunger, but your life should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, asking about Kṛṣṇa. That is life. So we don't want to stop all the activities. But they are busy always, they have no time for... Ask all these men, they are obstructing: "What these people are doing?" There is no end of their sense gratification. First of all get one motorcar is required, "All right." As soon as he gets money, "I'll purchase another one for my son, another for my daughter, another for my wife." Going on, going on. And he has to maintain four motorcars, then work hard, hard, hard. So indriya-prītiḥ: "Oh, I have got a car, why not my son?"
Prabhupāda: So the Indians who are outside India, they have got a special duty. So far our economic condition is concerned, as I explained yesterday, that one is destined to certain material comforts and discomforts, according to his body—already he has got. So either you stay in India or you stay in America, the bodily comforts or sense gratification, that will be achieved either in India or America. What you are destined to achieve, you will have it because as soon as your body is manufactured, your standard of comfort and discomfort is also manufactured. In Bengal there is a proverb that yethā deoyā bhange, kapāla yābe saṅge(?): "Wherever you go, your fortune will go with you." Fortune and misfortune, that will also go with you. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said one thing, that "Any Indian, any man who has taken birth on the soil of Bhāratavarṣa, India, he has got a special duty. And that duty is to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness."
Prabhupāda: The aim is that you must get free from your diseased condition. That should be the aim. It is not the way of life. You must get free yourself from the diseased condition. It is not a way of life; that is a must. If you want to be free from diseased condition, you must treat yourself properly. The treating is... Treatment is you surrender unto God and take to His service. This is simple. You are suffering, that's a fact. Everyone knows. Anyone who has got this material body, he is suffering. Nobody can say, "No, I am not suffering." Is there anybody? The body is meant for suffering, this material body. But because they do not approach the real physician, they think that they have got a material body, and that material body means there are senses, the sense gratification will give him satisfaction. Therefore he's simply after sense gratification, that's all. That is not treatment. That is still more complication.
Prabhupāda: That's all. People after sense gratification. A diseased man, who cannot digest, if he thinks that "I shall eat this, I shall eat that, I shall eat that," but actually he cannot digest. Eating this or that, how it will help him? (laughs) If you have lost your digesting power, then if you change, "I eat this, I shall eat that," that will not help you. So the modern civilized man, he has lost the point how he can be happy. He is simply changing the program of sense gratification. That's all.
Ian Polsen: Becoming more and more desperate.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. He has no other idea. Just like here in this material world the highest pleasure is sex life, so they are changing, different types of sex life, that's all. (break)
(break) We want to see that you are lover of God. God is one. God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. So we want to see that you love God, that is all. That is our mission.
Prabhupāda: Anything which can be engaged in the service of the Lord should not be given up. This is our philosophy. Should not be given up. We do not say, "Oh, money is material. I do not touch. My hand becomes turned up." No. We don't say all these nonsense philosophy. (laughs) We know that money, lakṣmī, is Kṛṣṇa's property, so it should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Why money should not be touched? Money is Kṛṣṇa's. It must be touched and used for Kṛṣṇa. We don't try to (indistinct) that pseudo renouncement. What I have got that I shall renouncement? Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Our renouncement means we renounce our personal sense gratification, that's all. That is renouncement. Materialism means personal sense gratification, and spiritual life means no personal sense gratification, all Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. That's all. The same teaching by Bhagavad-gītā. Arjuna was thinking in terms of personal sense gratification: "I shall not fight. It is not good to kill my kinsmen, my brother." That was personal sense gratification. From ordinary point of view people will say, "How Kṛṣṇa is..., Arjuna is nice, that he's giving up his claim, and nonviolent." But this philosophy Kṛṣṇa immediately kicked out. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam. "Oh, why you are talking nonsense like this?" That was His answer. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: And all my assistants, they are also working in that capacity. If I would have been proprietor, then they would not have been interested.
Devotee: Hm.
Prabhupāda: I would have collected the money and used for my sense gratification. Then nobody would help me.
Devotee: I think the English milk is better than American milk, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: I think so. It is from Holland.
Devotee: Oh. There's some famous islands between England and Holland called the Jersey Islands. There's special milk that comes from Jersey. Jersey milk is best.
Prabhupāda: No. These Europeans, Americans, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll be more happy. That is assured. From all angles of vision-their family life, their political life, their social life, their cultural life, their religious life, their philosophical life, their scientific life—everything will be perfect. Now you have to teach them. I can give you the ideas how they'll be happy. The rascals, they do not know why, what is your specialness, and just to teach you this. My only ambition is that you are... (aside:) Oh, there is no water. You are supposed to be the most intelligent persons. (Prabhupāda drinks) So if you take, others will take. That is going on. So I have no distinction between East and West. They're thinking that East is conquering West by culture. That is their enviousness. (laughter)
Guest (2): Does it mean that we should leave the work and we should not work and...
Prabhupāda: No. That I have explained. You work for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is called "Don't see to the result." Kṛpaṇa, kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ. Kṛpaṇa. There are two classes of men. One is kṛpaṇa, and one is brāhmaṇa. Kṛpaṇa, they want his sense satisfaction, and brāhmaṇa, they want Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. Satisfaction must be there but when you want your satisfaction, that is kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ. He wants to enjoy the result. That is the whole world. Material world means everyone wants his sense satisfaction, but the same way, when you'll satisfy Kṛṣṇa's senses, then you become brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava. The result must be there. If you work, there must be some result, bad or good. But if you want to enjoy, yourself, then you are kṛpaṇa. And if the result is enjoyed by Kṛṣṇa, then you are brāhmaṇa. Result must be there. Any work you do, there must be some result, and that is also described in the... Yajñārthāt karma. Yajña means Viṣṇu. For His sake one should work. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you work not for yajña, for your sense gratification, then you become bound up by the result of the karma, good or bad. So if we work for Kṛṣṇa, if the result is given to Kṛṣṇa, that is our perfection. Otherwise, kṛpaṇāḥ phala-hetavaḥ—we remain kṛpaṇa.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Well, we have got many faults. He can find out. But generally, if I direct nicely, others will follow. That is the principle. I may have some fault, you may have some, that you are not liberated from. We are all trying to preach. So generally we should behave very nicely according to the rules and regulations, chanting sixteen rounds, rising early in the morning. Particularly maybe there is some (indistinct). So generally with our, general rules are (indistinct). First of all rising early in the morning, he cleans and (indistinct) performances. So these things are followed, chants sixteen rounds, then everything is there.
Pañcadraviḍa: In your lectures you emphasized two aspects must be there, jñāna and renunciation. So some knowledge is there, but that part of the difficulty is that with most of the devotees in every temple in India, is that they have not renounced these dirty things completely. They still are attached to sense gratification even on gross levels. So whether a sannyāsī or anybody interferes with their sense gratification, they tend to not oblige because they are attached to doing things the way they want. And they think because they are in a foreign country here, a long way from America where the standards are very rigid, that they can do any manner of nonsense and nobody will check them. And if you try to correct them, then they will only do it behind your back. We have seen this, with the sweet shops, with rising early, anything that interferes with them doing as, exactly as they please, they don't want to oblige. And this is in Calcutta, this is in Bombay, and it's happening here in Vṛndāvana. It's not something that's isolated here to the palace, but the devotees all over, they are just behaving on the level of sense gratification, and that's why there is so much rajas guṇa in the temples. So much rajas guṇa.
Prabhupāda: This is a fact. So how to correct it. If you do not correct yourself, how you can correct?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just knowing the law.
Prabhupāda: That, that is sense gratification. That is sense gratification. Teṣāṁ kleśo vaśiṣyate. For that sense gratification, he's working so hard, spending so much money, but the result is that, taking labor is their business. That's all. No benefit, no other benefit. Teṣāṁ kleśa eva vaśiṣyate. Nānyat, yathā sthūla tuṣa-khaṇḍana.(?) Just like you have taken the rice from the paddy. So now it is only skin. And if you try to employ that machine, Deki(?), what is called?
Devotee: Thresher.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Deki(?) What you'll gain?
Prabhupāda: Deki, yes. Simply dag da dag da dag dak. (sound imitation) But the rice is already taken away. So their labor is being spoiled in that way. They, pleasure... For the pleasure's sake, they are spoiling the human facilities. This is their intelligence. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says: jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava tomāra bhajane bādhā, anitya saṁsāre moha janamiyā jībake karaye gādhā. This jaḍa-vidyā, this material science, is simply a hindrance to our progress of spiritual life. All these rascal scientists, they'll deny God. That is their business. Just like you said yesterday that somebody was accepting God, and the other scientists, they thought: "No, it is insult." So already they are in oblivion. They cannot understand what is God. And these rascals are making them more and more rascals. "There is no God."
Brahmānanda: Desire.
Prabhupāda: Activities of sense gratification. He's becoming entangled.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the modern scientific research means to increase the demands of the body, the bodily demands.
Prabhupāda: Yes, what they can do? Because they're rascal, foolish, just like children, they'll simply make their body dirty. That's all. He does not know anything. If you bring a small children, what they will do? They'll take this... You see. he does not know anything. He's a rascal. Similarly you scientists, you are all rascals. You do not know anything. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed, making research. What research you can do? You do not know anything. What research you can do? And Vedic injunction is: yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you know the Absolute Truth, then all other things become known. But you do not know what is Absolute Truth. Therefore you are in ignorance. If you know one thing, then you... Just like you are talking. We are not official scientists or philosopher or anything. But why you are challenging, you are talking so boldly? Because we know one thing, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we can say so boldly and challenge anyone. I'm not a D.A.C. like you. How I can challenge you? I'm challenging you. How? Because I know Kṛṣṇa. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Real knowledge is to be given to the younger section. Older section, it is not possible. They will have to forget first of all, what they have learned. That they cannot. Therefore it is impossible. Therefore knowledge begins from the school children, not from the man who is going to die. (laughing) That is not... Impractical. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja said kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān: (SB 7.6.1) "Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be taught from the very childhood." Not that at the time of death. That is not possible. Therefore our students, they are all young generation, they capture. These rascals, they cannot. Old fools, they cannot. There was a practical examination. One father and one daughter, both appeared for BA examination in India. The daughter passed and the father failed. It was in the newspaper. In old age they cannot take any lessons. They forget.
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: Because of sense gratification or mind...
Prabhupāda: Anyway, they say all... Yes. The bodily functions, intelligence...,
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Blunt, intelligence becomes blunt.
Prabhupāda: Yes, blunt. When the knife is sharp, it can cut, but if it is become blunt, then you cannot cut.
Paramahaṁsa: Or worn by age.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have all been described as māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ: (BG 7.15) "Their real knowledge is taken away by māyā." Therefore we don't give any credit to all these rascals. Although we are very small, but we don't give any credit. We frankly say, "These are rascals, fools."
Umāpati: Sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Violating.
Paramahaṁsa: They have lost respect as well.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Violating the laws. So how they can go on with the business?
Umāpati: Somehow they think they have an answer.
Prabhupāda: They have no answer. As soon as I asked this question... Yesterday also, last, that television, he also asked the same question. He has purchased all our books. So "Why this Christian religion is declined?" And "Why it will not? Why you are violating?" He could not answer. He could not answer. He will violate... All, many Christian priests ask me this question, and as soon as they put this question, they stop. They stop. They cannot answer. "Why you are killing? The first order is 'Thou shalt not kill,' and why you are killing?" They cannot answer. I asked them two questions. "Why unlimited God shall have only one son? And why you are killing?" They cannot answer. Or you answer?
Umāpati: No.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation for a few sentences) Dharmaṁ tu sākṣad bhagavat-praṇītam: (SB 6.3.19) "Religion is given by God." (Hindi) sarva-dharmān parityajya, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So this is religion. (Hindi) They are not religion. They are cheating. Bhāgavata says dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). "The cheating type of religion is kicked out." So we are following the same principle. We are kicking out all these cheating type of religion. It is explained any religion which does not recognize or do not understand the principles of religion, so that is cheating religion. Why religion? Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). This is religion. That is first-class religion, which teaches bhakti. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, to the Supreme, which is beyond our perception. Akṣaja. Akṣaja means within material perception. Beginning from "a" to "kṣa", whatever experience we have got... Or akṣa means eyes, senses. So within sense perception, whatever is there... God is beyond sense perception. Therefore God's name is Adhokṣaja. Yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. That is first-class religion. Otherwise, there are so many religions, pseudo religions. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as kaitava. And Śrīdhara Svāmī gives his comments on this kaitava: chala-dharma. Chala-dharma means cheating. And he says particularly, mokṣa-vāñchāpi nirastam. That desire of merging into the Brahman effulgence, that is called mokṣa. Dharma-artha-kāma-mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90). Generally, people understand these four principles: religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and then merge into the effulgence, mokṣa, liberation. So Śrīdhara Svāmī says, up to mokṣa-vāñchā is cheating, kaitava. Up to mokṣa-vāñchā. Mokṣa-vāñchāpy atra nirastam, kevala bhagavad-upāsanā. That is dharma. That is real dharma.
Buddhist Monk (1): Yeah. Well, I've been asking in all these universities, high schools, and all those, all those audiences, "What is the purpose of this so-called modern education? What is the purpose? If so, kindly define this purpose. Have people thought on this?" I just gave a broadcast at Southampton day before yesterday. Nobody, not many people appear to have seriously considered this question. Is it to fly to the moon? Is it to be a food taster or a noise lover? Or is it to build dreams and castles in the air? Or to soak one's self in the whirlpools of kāma, sensuality? What is this meant for? What is our education for? No one appeared... Very, very few people have appeared to ...
Prabhupāda: No, there is no aim of the education. Their only aim is economic development.
Buddhist Monk (1): That's right.
Prabhupāda: And that means a higher standard of sense gratification.
Buddhist Monk (1): The more material doubts people can produce, that's supposed to be the educated person.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Arjuna. He was a kṣatriya, a warrior, but he acted on account of Kṛṣṇa. We are acting, but we are acting at the present moment for our sense gratification. Everyone is thinking that "If I do like this, it will give me great satisfaction." That is my sense gratification. I am acting for my satisfaction, not for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. So when we act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is the perfection. Then we save the material pollution. This is the secret. Arjuna is a good example. Before fighting, he was thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. But when he understood Bhagavad-gītā and he agreed to act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then he became perfect. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that we do not say immediately to stop. Just like "Cars, Profits and Pollution," the very nice description of these three things. But there is no suggestion of remedy. That he does not know. If he suggested remedy, "Now stop all cars driving," or "Stop this nonsense business," that is impossible. That is craziness. So we do not say that you stop it. But we say, purify it. Just like there is pollution. So pollution is there. You cannot stop manufacturing cars or driving cars. That is not possible. But you can purify the pollution. That is possible.
Guest (1): I shall read them.
Prabhupāda: So, in this way, as soon as we understand or become convinced that I am not this body, then spiritual education begins. (If) I am different, then the next question will be, then what for I am working? Naturally at the present moment we are working for this body, maintenance of the body. For eating, sleeping, having facility for sex life or sense gratification and to protect this body from being harmed. This is our business. But if I am not this body, then, I am spirit soul, then the next question will be, what I am doing for the spirit soul? When actually I am working for this body because I, spirit soul, is within this body. Just like we are keeping this room fit for habitation because I am living here. Three months or four months ago we are not in possession of this room. So we were not anxious about this room. Because we were not living. So actually I am keeping my body fit, nice, just to live within this body. Therefore actually I do not love this body, I love myself. And to keep myself in a nice position, I love this room or this house. My main business is to get me, as I am, comfortable. Not that it is my business to keep this house neat and clean only. No. No, my business is to keep myself fit. So actually I love my soul. Then if you analyze, studying your soul, what is the constitution, you'll find the soul is part and parcel of God. Then you come to the platform that you love the soul because you love God. The ultimate issue is God. As you love this body because you love the soul, similarly you love the soul because you love God. And that is now lost. We are embarrassed in the affairs of loving this body. The background we have forgotten. This is our present stage. Therefore we are in confusion. There is no satisfaction.
Prabhupāda: You are teacher?
Guest: No, not anymore. It's not very transcendental.
Śrutakīrti: He's asking if his business is transcendental.
Prabhupāda: No, if it is used for Kṛṣṇa, then it is transcendental. If it is used for your sense gratification, then it is material. That is the difference.
Guest: Yes. And how do you know whether you're using it for Kṛṣṇa or not?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That requires training from the Kṛṣṇa's representative, guru. Just like these boys are being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it requires little training. Just like you are mathematician. To make another student mathematician, you have to train him. You have to teach him how to calculate two plus two equal to four. It will never be five. If somebody says, "No, my calculation is two plus two equal to five." Will it be accepted?
Guest: I'm afraid sometimes it can be true. (laughs)
Devotees: Rich birth, to be born in a rich family.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. But there is facility. Because people are harassed for getting food and shelter. Everyone is working so hard where to get nice food, where to get nice shelter. Rich man means he has already got. So if he's sane, if he's good, has got good association, direction, then he can think, that "I have no anxiety for my food, shelter and other necessities of life. So how I shall utilize my time?" And if he gets good guru, then he can utilize very nicely, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is a chance. He hasn't got to work. Because people are very much perplexed how to get shelter, how to get food. But he has got the chance. He hasn't got to endeavor for food and shelter and other necessities of the body. Ample he has got. He can save time for spiritual advancement. That is an advantage. It is not necessary. It is almost disadvantage. But actually it is advantage. Unfortunately, those who are born in rich family, they take advantage of it that "I have got so much money, let me enjoy sense gratification." Māyā dictates, "Oh, you have got so much money. Utilize for wine-woman." That's all.
Prabhupāda: All these things are, they are simply māyā. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). "These rascals, they are working so hard, making gorgeous arrangement. For what? For illusory sense gratification." That sense gratification is also false. Real sense gratification is in Kṛṣṇa and kṛṣṇa-dhāma. Hlādinī, sandhinī, saṁvit. Perverted in this material life. Āhlāda-tapa-kārī miśrayate tair na guṇa-varjite (?). Here āhlāda, pleasure and tapa-kārī, pain, and mixture of āhlāda. This is the position. Tair na guṇa-varjite (?). This kind of pleasure is not in Kṛṣṇa, guṇa-varjite, because He is free from the material condition. So anyway, the human life is only meant for... This is our mission, to teach that "You are simply wasting your time. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is his only business. And next business is, those who cannot directly take to, then those, they should be helping this movement. Therefore we go door-to-door, to connect them, to be linked up with this movement, life member, this member, that member... They are misunderstanding, "They have no other good business. Transcendental fraud, giving us some book and taking money and eating and sleeping. They have got..." They are thinking like that.
Prabhupāda: So those who will act as brain, they must possess these qualities. But who is being taught these qualities? This modern civilization is teaching people how to steal, how to cheat, how to satisfy your own sense gratification. You see? No tolerance, no complete knowledge. All fools and rascals, no knowledge. Knowledge means they must know what is the aim of life, what is God, what we are, what is this material world, why we have come here. So many things. This is called God consciousness. There is no such educational institution all over the world. Is there any institution where it is being especially taught what is God, what I am. Is there any institution?
Banker: Well, there are metaphysics departments in almost every university.
Prabhupāda: Metaphysics department is there. I was also a student of philosophy. That is theories only. Of course, they are trying, psychology, metaphysics, ethics. You were also a student of philosophy?
Umāpati: Yes. It comes from a time when we admire swashbuckling and being free, so-called, in the material sense.
Prabhupāda: That is reaction. The rich man is trying to become a poor man. "Let me see what is the advantage of the poor man." That's right. Your country does not require to lie down like that. You have got enough arrangement. But it is a fashion. That's all. So fashion is not austerity. That is sense gratification. It appears like austerity, but it is sense gratification. Real austerity is not to make any sense gratification, simply to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is real austerity.
Umāpati: So if Kṛṣṇa required us to sleep on the beach, then...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Umāpati: ...that would not be... if Kṛṣṇa required us to sleep on the beach, that would not be sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: No. And why Kṛṣṇa will require like that? Do you mean to say Kṛṣṇa is a madman?
Umāpati: No.
Prabhupāda: What is that meditation?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, they meditate for fifteen, twenty minutes... (indistinct) ...I think. You have to pay some money for that.
Hṛdayānanda: They say, they say it will increase your sense gratification, make more money.
Bali Mardana: But they don't, they do not claim any spiritual benefit. It is only material benefit that they claim.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: They why "Transcendental"?
Bali Mardana: Well, it's just a catchy name.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have so many scientific tests like blood tests, the blood, circulation of the blood is improved, the mental condition is improved.
Prabhupāda: That is all material. That has nothing to do with spiritual. Blood is not spiritual. It is material.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal means that however kick him on his face, still, he'll insist. That is rascal. Rascal means that. They'll never take good lesson. That is rascal. And sensible means he takes good lesson. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). And why they remain rascal? Because they are duṣkṛtinaḥ, very, very sinful. Very, very sinful. Don't you see? They are maintaining slaughterhouse. They are maintaining brothel. They are ruining everyone's life by sense gratification. These are all sinful activities. Therefore they remain rascal forever. They cannot improve. Because they are so sinful, they have to suffer, go to the darkest region. They'll have to become worms of the stool. That is awaiting them. But they do not know how things are going on. They are thinking, "We are now safe. We are safe." That is foolishness. That is rascaldom. So you are now feeling all right?
Paramahaṁsa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you very much.
Prajāpati: Today the only time they use the word God is when they are swearing and they are calling on God to damn someone else. Why is such language there? Why are they doing like that?
Prabhupāda: No. Why ordinary men? Even those who are going to church, they are also praying God, "God, give us our daily bread." These rascals, they have made God as agent for their sense gratification. This is their philosophy. Even from the priest down to the rogues, they have made God as the agent of their sense gratification. That is materialism." God must supply whatever I want. That is God. Otherwise I don't care for God." This is their philosophy.
Prajāpati: But sometimes they might hit their thumb with a hammer or something and they will start swearing, calling on God's name, but in a very bad way.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. God's name. God's... In every respect, these materialists, they want to use God for their sense gratification. That is the prime fact. Our philosophy is that "God is not agent for your sense gratification, but you are agent for God's satisfaction." That is our philosophy, just the opposite. Even so-called religionists, they also take God as the agent of their sense gratification. They go to church to order God, "Supply our bread." Actually, He is doing. God is supplying bread. But they go for ordering, that "Give us our..." The rascal does not know, God is already supplying. Why should we go to church for ordering Him to supply bread? He is already supplying, even to the cats and dogs. They do not now what is the purpose of going to the church. That is going on. That is the disease, material disease. "I want to satisfy my senses, and anyone who will help me in my sense gratification, I shall worship him. If he does not, then I shall not." Everywhere. This Nixon became president because he promised that "I shall satisfy your senses." Now he is not doing so, so "Get out." This is the whole formula, material world." You satisfy my senses, you are my friend. And as soon as stop, then you are not my friend." That's it. (break) ...are considered the most authoritative because they give sense gratification. "You are sick. Now you are unable to gratify your senses. I give you some medicine so you become strong and go on your sense gratification." Therefore doctor is very good man.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even I wanted to become a doctor. When I started...
Prabhupāda: Oh, whatever you want to become, the basic principle is sense gratification. Either you become scientist or doctor or engineer, the main thing is "Bring money." That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some doctors think that they are doing humanitarian work.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so long he will pay. That's all. "Hospital." In your country especially. "Hospital" means "to receive." But there also you pay, then it is hospital. Otherwise "Get out." It is no longer hospital.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I find doctors are most rascals here. They are greatest demons.
Prabhupāda: Why not the scientists?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think scientists are better than doctors.
Prabhupāda: Better rascals. (laughter) Scientists are better rascals. (laughing)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Locana: And they keep their telephone numbers secret so that on Sunday their patients may not disturb their sense gratification with their medical difficulties.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is a very big business here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, medical profession. They have this American Medical Association. They control the whole business. Even government cannot interfere. So they choose students, and they keep the supply so low that the demand is always high. That is why the price always increases. It's terrible.
Karandhara: To stay in a hospital now costs about $150 a day.
Prabhupāda: That is a sort of punishment of sinful activities. When you fall sick, it is due to sinful activity. So you are punished.
Hṛdayānanda: It's true, Prabhupāda. They are in darkness because they cannot check their material activities by seeing the light. They go on with sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Light. We have go so many lights. What is the benefit of seeing the light?
Jayatīrtha: They only call us so that we'll arrange to bring some prasādam.
Prabhupāda: They do not supply prasādam, these rascals? (break) Everyone can see. So if Guru Maharaji is light, then why everybody does not follow? If he is light, light can be seen by everyone. Just like sunlight, moonlight, we can see. Everyone can see.
Hṛdayānanda: They argue that he only will reveal himself to those who surrender to him.
Prabhupāda: But those who have surrendered, they cannot speak anything. They are in darkness. When we talk with your disciple who has surrendered, they cannot argue with us. They are in darkness. So what kind of light he has seen?
Prabhupāda: But in happiness they forget. (aside:) Don't keep so near.
Prajāpati: Without knowledge their sentiment is just worthless.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda: That's a fact. In American history, whenever there was economic prosperity, always increase in sense gratification. Historically speaking, in America, whenever there was increase in prosperity, there was a trend towards irreligion and sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: That is everywhere. Luxury leads to poverty. (break) ...a living man, but if you are actually interested, why don't you do it, organized way. Sentiment, it is good, but if you do not understand the science, sentiment may be for the time being. Sentiment is sentiment. That will not act. They are admitting sinful activities?
Prajāpati: Yes, they are admitting that... They are an abyss of moral decay.
Prabhupāda: So let them know what are the sinful activities. These are the sinful activities. Close all the slaughterhouses. Close all these illicit sex brothel houses, and close the liquor houses.
Guest (1): And that rāsa-līlā is also not taken in that moral sense. It is more of a sex exploitation. That is how they...
Prabhupāda: No. Why one should go to the rāsa-līlā? It is in the Tenth Canto. And in the thirty-fifth chapter. So what is the purpose?
Guest (1): No. That is being misrepresented. That has also been taken as an enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): It has been taken more as sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). So Karandhara Prabhu, this time is nice.
Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: We get full sunshine. Yes.
Guest (1): Prabhupāda, what is the meaning of the word Śrīla?
Prabhupāda: Śrīla is... just like we say "Śrī" to the ordinary person. And Śrīla to very respectable person.
Prabhupāda: Now, if you analyze the present human society, you will find there is not a single human being. All animals. All animals. Not a single human being. (Bengali) What is time now?
Bahulāśva: Nine o'clock, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So let us go. (break) People, they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the difficulty.
Viṣṇujana: Yes. From childhood they are taught sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: That's all. They do not know that for sense gratification, enough facility is there in the animal kingdom. So if you want to give facility for sense gratification, does it mean that you want to become more than or less than animal? Not more than.
Viṣṇujana: They want dog's life. They think dog's life is good life. They have to work hard and the dog stays at home all day and enjoys in their nice big house. So they think, "I would be better to be the dog."
Prabhupāda: So they have become. But when he becomes street dog? That means he has to depend on good master. Big apartment for dog means he belongs to the master. So he has to find out a good master. But if he fails to find out a good master, then he's street dog. Dog's life is good, provided he gets a good master. So therefore we have decided to become dog of Kṛṣṇa, (laughter) the best master. And the master says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: (BG 18.66) "I will give you protection." So why not become dog of Kṛṣṇa?
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bali Mardana: They say that a man walking in the street does not feel so big, but once he gets behind the wheel of the motorcar he becomes very puffed up.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is natural. He thinks, "I am motorcar." He identifies. (japa)
Satsvarūpa: We say sense gratification is available for everyone, but they don't agree. They think, "If I don't have this nice apartment it's not the same as sleeping in a bad condition."
Prabhupāda: Bad condition, good condition, that is another thing. But you get it. You get it. Bad condition, good condition, that is my consideration, but things are available. Even the best apartment in India, that is not a good apartment for America. This is simply my mental concoction: "This is good; that is bad." I am thinking, "It is the best;" another may think, "Oh, it is lowest." The hog is thinking stool is very nice food, and I am thinking, "What is this nonsense thing?" So "best" and "good", it is simply mental concoction, it has no value. Just like these western people, what is their ultimate standard of best, nobody knows. Nobody knows. Just like hundred years before, there was no skyscraper building, but now even best skyscraper building is not best. So where is the standard of best and... It is all mental concoction.
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Very clear.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is asking, "Please help me to get this burden on my head." Everyone is asking. (break) Kṛṣṇa mantra means asking nothing from Kṛṣṇa, but only praying, "Please engage me in Your service." This is Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now let him engage, whatever service He likes. I don't dictate that "Give me this service." That is also sense gratification. As soon as I'll say that "Engage me in this type of service," that is also sense gratification. When one surrenders fully that "Engage me in Your service in whatever way You like," that is pure devotion. You cannot dictate Kṛṣṇa. Because He wants, sarva-dharmān... "First of all surrender, then I will give you. I will allot what kind of service you can do." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva... (BG 18.66). But if I dictate, then Kṛṣṇa will be..., "All right, you take this." Then you again become unhappy. Don't dictate Kṛṣṇa. Be dictated. That is happiness. But everyone is dictating, "Please give me this. Give me this. Give me that. Give me that. Give me this." Why should you dictate Kṛṣṇa? As soon as I dictate, that is my sense gratification. That is not pure devotion. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Make zero all your desires. It doesn't matter, this desire or that desire. Any kind of desire. Whatever you desire, that is material. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (CC Madhya 19.167). That is pure devotee.
Prabhupāda: For Your service.
Guest (1): For your service.
Prabhupāda: But for my sense gratification, I cannot do that.
Guest (1): Very good answer.
Prabhupāda: In a, in the Western countries, I had to sometimes do something which I should not have done. But I've done it to bring so many souls to Kṛṣṇa.
Brahmānanda: The preaching necessitates that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if there is no other alternative, what can I do? In the beginning I had no disciples. So I was cooking myself. So one gentleman, he... Later on, he became my disciple. He gave me some place. I was cooking. And in the refrigerator, I saw there was meat. (laughs) So I asked: "What is this?" He said, "It is for cats. I don't take meat." "All right. (laughter) I'll do (?)." So of course, I stayed there for three, four days. And if I cry, "Oh, I have violated my rules and regulations..." Rules and regulations can be violated when there is urgent necessity of service, not whimsically or for one's sense gratification. And that is, of course, in our present..., with the permission of the spiritual master, not one should think, "Oh, I have become so much great devotee, I can violate all the rules and regulations." No, you cannot. If there is need of violating rules and regulations, you must take permission. Now we have no temple. Under the circumstances, we are doing that.
Guest (1): Yes. I know that, that story.
Prabhupāda: So for the satisfaction of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we sometimes do that. But we collect money from them not for our sense gratification, but constructing this temple.
Guest (1): For the general public and...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): ...country and...
Prabhupāda: And unless we have got temple like this, nobody would come. If I sit down here, "Bhaktivedanta Swami is sitting here," nobody will come. (laughter)
Guest (1): But people, like poor people, like come to the...
Prabhupāda: But Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God. He can attract any man. But I am not God. I have to attract people by some opulence.
Devotee: It seems that people are so attached to sense gratification, if we tell them we want to stop all these facilities for drinking, cinema, women, like that, they become angry.
Prabhupāda: So that, that is natural. If you give good instruction to a rascal, he'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). Mūrkha, a rascal, if you give him good instruction... But give him practical. "Come here. Sit down. Take prasādam. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And help me by doing this." In this way you have to... Just like a child. Child does not want to go to school, but some, by... Find out some means so that he'll be induced. That is intelligence. He'll be angry, naturally. He's a rascal. He'll be angry. That is not unnatural. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). Just like a snake. You feed the snake with milk. It will increase the poison. That's all. Practically attract. Practically attract. That is the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will practically attract the people. If the world affairs are adjusted according to our Kṛṣṇa conscious plan, there will be no difficulty for all the nations, all the countries. They will be happy. So we have to educate people gradually. And by our example, living example, we'll have to attract. (pause)
Prabhupāda: There are many things like that. So you should try to understand it fully. Why should you understand it haphazardly? You must try to understand fully. (break)
Harikeśa: ...position to criticize his Godbrothers, no matter what?
Prabhupāda: You can criticize, if you are right. You cannot criticize wrongly. (break)
Devotee: ...instructions rather than our sense gratification? (break)
Prabhupāda: It is not right that he says that. Sense gratification is wrong. You cannot gratify your senses. You have to enjoy your senses in the service of the Lord. That is perfection. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). That is our only business. (break)
Devotee (lady): Thank you. I'm leaving. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...hot.
Devotee (lady): Yes. I'm just to make very hot. (break)
Harikeśa: ...to increase as we become more and more pure?
Prabhupāda: Everyone has got that intelligence, to understand and ... (end)
Guest (1): He won't be satisfied.
Prabhupāda: No. They'll never be satisfied. Kāmādi... But this service is service to my kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya. I am giving service to my wife because she satisfies me by sense gratification. Therefore I'm not giving service to my wife, but I'm giving service to my senses. So ultimately, we are servant of the senses. We are nobody's servants. This is our material position. Yes. Ultimately, we are servant of our senses.
Guest (1): Or we are the servant of our ego.
Prabhupāda: So the position is constitutionally I am servant, but at the present moment, being conditioned by the material nature, I am giving service to my senses. Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if I give service to the master of the senses, Hṛṣīkeśa... Because senses, they are not independent. They are also dependent. Suppose I am now moving my hands, but if the master of my hand, Kṛṣṇa, paralyzes it, no more moving. Neither I can renovate the moving capacity of my hand. Therefore I am not master. Although I am claiming I am master of my hand, master of my leg, but actually I am not. The master is different. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Therefore the service should be transferred. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). We have engaged our senses for different purposes, but when we engage our senses for the service of the master of the senses, that is called bhakti. Bhakti is also service, but it is not service to the senses, but it is service to the master of the senses. This is bhakti. So constitutionally I am servant. I cannot become master. I have to serve. So if I don't serve the master of the senses, then I will have to serve the senses. This is our position.
Dr. Patel: Girirāja, how you are earning fifty thousand rupees a month?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Fifty-thousand. Because fifty members. Fifty members, eleven hundred rupees. He makes at least two, three members. If some day absent, average fifty. Fifty thousand. Not a single fifty n.p. he keeps. There are many. All, all of them. Not that everyone is earning fifty thousand, but even fifty hundred or fifty payasā, everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is tam abhyarcya. And if you divide partially, "Some percentage for Kṛṣṇa, some percentage for my sense gratification," then Kṛṣṇa says, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Proportionately. If you have spent cent percent of your energy for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is cent percent for you. And if you have spent one percent for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is one percent for you. Responsive cooperation. (laughter) Yes. This institution has advanced so much all over the world because we have got these boys who have dedicated everything for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it has so quickly advanced all over the world. They do not think of anything of personal. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Kṛṣṇa is also... Huh?
Guest (1): What is that saṁsiddhi noun?
Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhi means perfection. Saṁsiddhiḥ paramaṁ gataḥ.
Prabhupāda: I am repeatedly saying that God does not create anything. Just like the same example.
Guest (5): He has created this universe.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. You created. Why do you blame?
Guest (5): How I was created, I created this universe?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So you were created to serve God, but you do not serve God. You want sense gratification. That is your fault.
Guest (5): He's self-sufficient. He doesn't need service.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are repeating that question like a fool? (laughter) I have answered this. If you disturb in that way, don't question. I have already, that you created everything.
Guest (5): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian (1): He died about thirty-nine.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thirty-two. (break) ...never think what is the truth of life. Everyone. So somebody is taking sense gratification as truth of life. Somebody is taking mental speculation as truth of life. So many ways. But Bhāgavata says, satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). We worship the Supreme Truth. Namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. The Supreme Truth. (break) ...say Brahmā, oṁ. Not Rāma, Kṛṣṇa. No, they'll never say. Sometimes they say, "Nārāyaṇa." That is, means thinking himself as Nārāyaṇa. (laughter) Daridra-nārāyaṇa, this nārāyaṇa, that nārāyaṇa, Swami Nārāyaṇa.
Devotee: Then they want to serve Nārāyaṇa.
Passerby: Jaya Rāmji. Jaya Rāmji. Jaya Rāmji.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee: Then they, then they take the philosophy, "I want to serve Nārāyaṇa."
Prabhupāda: "No, I want to become Nārāyaṇa."
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...prasannātmā. Brahma-bhūta. That is called brahma-bhūta stage. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. This happiness and distress is the cause of śocati and kāṅkṣati. Kāṅkṣati means desiring to have something. This is distress. And lamenting for something, that is also distress. Actually, this is the material position. When we haven't got the things, we desire it. That is also distress. And when it is lost, that is also distress. But by illusion, they take it. When they get it, they think that it is happiness. This is māyā. Actually, to get the things, he has to undergo so much hard... A man is given credit... Suppose he was a poor man. He has now become multi-millionaire. He is given credit. But he does not see that he has simply passed through distress. But he... By illusion, he's thinking that he's happy. He's also thinking, and others also thinking, that "He has become happy." But actually it is distress. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (chants japa) (break) ...people become religious not for attaining the transcendental stage, but for material benefit, dharma, the artha. Artha means material opulence, that. They... These four things: dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90). And why they want artha? To satisfy their senses. Dharma artha kāma... And when they're again baffled, they want mukti, to become one with the Supreme. These are the four different tastes of the material. All, all of them are baffling and illusory. The so-called religiosity with a view to get some material profit... That comes everywhere. Just (as) in Christianity, the religion means, "O God, give us our daily bread." Material profit, similarly, in anywhere, they go for material benefit. Therefore this kind of religion, it is also good, but it not first-class. The first-class religion is sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6), when one is awakened to the devotional service of the Lord, ahaitukī apratihatā, without any cause, and without being impeded. So ahaitukī apratihatā... That is, that stage is required. Not that "My sense gratification is not done here. Oh, let us give up this company." That is sense gratification. (laughs)
Girirāja: (reading) "...should see to the peace and comfort of his fellow man and the animals. The development of religious principles, economic development, and sense gratification can then be achieved without difficulty."
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...stress on Kṛṣṇa. And they have written so many commentaries on the Bhagavad-gītā. And this is the first time, we have given.
Indian Man (1): Yes, very good. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...spoken. If somebody writes an ordinary book, one studies his life, his characters and everything, the authors. And these rascal will not study Kṛṣṇa. And they will comment upon Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Nobody is interested about the life of Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...the author, there is short sketch of life. But nobody writes Kṛṣṇa's life. You see? Nobody writes.
Girirāja: "But it's said in all authentic, revealed scriptures, wherein it is declared that the purpose of civilized human life is to live together in peace and harmony so that everyone can advance progressively in spiritual life." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...purpose of life. But they do not know what is the purpose of life. They have taken the idea of cats and dogs, simply sense gratification. Now, where, how there will be good government. (break) ...all leniency to the Mohammedans to get vote. That's a fact. (break) Mahābhārata, anywhere, or Rāmāyaṇa, you'll never find a woman is elected on the topmost post.
Dr. Patel: And that was widow.
Prabhupāda: No, woman is never, was made a king. That was... Now it has become a fashion.
Dr. Patel: And the widow with all her virtues.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...days greatest politician. Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca. So our present head of the state is both woman and diplomat. That's all.
Mahāṁsa: ...persons serving, taking people who are serving Kṛṣṇa into serving their sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Engage them. māyā... It is not actually māyā's fault, this māyā's business that all living entities who are within this material world, they have come to enjoy. Enjoy means sense gratification. So māyā is kind enough to give them all facilities. That is māyā's business. māyā has a machine, these three qualities, and as I want to enjoy, so there are departmental arrangements, "Give him facilities like this." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).
Satsvarūpa: But the facility turns out to be slaps.
Prabhupāda: Slaps... We will go on the street?
Mahāṁsa: It's not very... It's all right.
Prabhupāda: Let us see. (break) Just like children, they are given some facilities. They must work according to that plan. Otherwise sometimes there is slap, "Huh, why you are doing like that?" like that. (break) ...your country. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrā-bhaumya idya-dhīḥ (SB 10.84.13). Bhaumya means bhūmi. Bhūmi, the land, idya-dhīḥ: "This is my duty: to serve my country, to serve my land." This is māyā. The rascal, he is engaged to "Do your duty to your country," and what is the country? Suppose if I do my duty and I may be driven away from my country next life, because there is no guarantee that I will have to take my birth... Just like one astrologer has explained that Jawaharlal Nehru has become a dog in Scandinavia. (laughs) There is chance. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You will have to change your body. Now, where it will be changed, how it will be changed, what kind of body you will get—that is not in your hands. That is not in your hands. You cannot say, "Oh, I am Prime Minister. I must get such and such body." That is not going to be accepted. But these foolish rascal people, they do not understand it. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). I am acting under certain infection. So I am infecting, say, some venereal disease. So I must suffer for it.
Satsvarūpa: Someone might say, "But if one is surrendered why should Kṛṣṇa give him trouble?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is because he is always free. Why do you make Kṛṣṇa dependent on your so-called goodwill, that "Kṛṣṇa must give me always pleasure"? This is sense gratification. This is sense gratification that you approach Kṛṣṇa for your comfort, sense gratification. That is not bhakti. That is sense gratification. Prahlāda Mahārāja was given suffering by his father so harshly, but he never said, "Oh, I am devotee and Kṛṣṇa giving me so much trouble? Oh! Give it up." He never said that. Neither he asked Kṛṣṇa to come and save him. That is Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. The Pāṇḍavas. The Pāṇḍavas, they were always with Kṛṣṇa and they were suffering. They never asked Kṛṣṇa that "You are the Supreme, and why we are suffering?" Never said. Never said. That is Kṛṣṇa-bhakti.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Atreya Ṛṣi: And it attracts...
Richard Webster: Who?
Atreya Ṛṣi: Sense gratification, sensual living.
Richard Webster: Oh, sense gratification.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. So it's attracting undisciplined senses.
Richard Webster: Well, I don't call it sense gratification. To me there's no gratification in city life.
Atreya Ṛṣi: That's because you're wise.
Prabhupāda: On the whole, as I began, that there is no guiding men. The brain is lacking.
Richard Webster: Well, perhaps I should go now. I've taken too much time. Excuse me. Thank you very much and...
Prabhupāda: Give him some... Give him some... Just wait.
Yogeśvara: Kṛṣṇa has black hair, too.
Prabhupāda: Why do you bring Kṛṣṇa here? This is all sense gratification. (laughter) But that is very good that even in talking this material, you remembered Kṛṣṇa. That is very good. You remember Kṛṣṇa. When childish playing, if you remember Kṛṣṇa's childhood, that is very good. That is very good. Some way or other, if you get the chance of remembering Kṛṣṇa, that is advancement.
Satsvarūpa: Even if the example is not so clear or good.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. You remember Kṛṣṇa some way or other. Kṛṣṇa does not belong to this abominable material world, but it is benefit for you because you remembered Kṛṣṇa.
Yogeśvara: The manager of a large factory comes to us and says, "Well, here is my problem. My workers are striking for higher pay and no one is satisfied So what can I do?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Nitāi: That is just like the example you gave the other day about the man sitting under the tree. Someone comes up to him and says, "Come, work hard. You will enjoy." The hippies, their only business is trying to enjoy. They are just absorbed in sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The hippies' philosophy is that "After all, we have to enjoy sense. So we are getting free, freedom. We can have sense enjoyment, sex life on the street. Why shall I work for the same purpose? We have already got it. You civilized man, you so-called civilized, advanced civilized man, for your sex life, you have to go to the skyscraper building, and we can do it on the street, on the park. We have got better facilities. Why shall I accept your philosophy." They will say, they say like that. (break) ...agree to the fact that they have no knowledge. Everything they are doing whimsically without any purpose. (break) ...from their side. You have to find out, make research.
Yogeśvara: Well, they say "You are distributing food, and we are also distributing food. You are opening schools, and we are also opening schools."
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are opening school for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore the rascals, they cannot understand what is bhakti and what is karma. Bhakti looks like karma, but it's not karma. It is bhakti. They cannot understand what is bhakti. Bhakti means the same karma, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is bhakti. Just like the same fight, battlefield, but because it was done for Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna is accepted, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: (BG 4.3) "You are My devotee. You are My very dear." But what did he do? His business was to fight. He fought, that's all. But fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is the secret. He did not change his fighting capacity as a warrior. But he changed his mentality. His mentality was that "Why shall I kill my kinsmen?" But Kṛṣṇa wanted, "Oh, that's all right." So therefore service is for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Not for his sense gratification. Karmī means sense gratification, and bhakta means Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. That is the difference. Sense gratification is there. When you do it for your personal sense grati..., it is karma. And you do it for Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification, it is bhakti. So therefore they look similar, but the quality is different. Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Dhare prema nāma. The gopīs, they acted like prostitutes, but the center was Kṛṣṇa.
Satsvarūpa: Here it's getting more and more moist, dew. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...friend, but what is my business? My business is to serve the senses, that's all. Kāmādīnām, kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya, mada, the six kinds of sense gratification I am doing. This is actual... Just like this man, he is thinking he is very big man, but he's servant of his dog. Is it not? But he is thinking that he is very big man. He does not think that "What is my business? To serve this dog in the morning." He has no sense. Because he has no prescribed duty to serve Kṛṣṇa... He must serve, and therefore he must serve dog. That is his position. But still, he's thinking, "Why these foolish people are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? I am serving the dog. I am very big man." He has become very big man by serving the dog, and we are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa. We...
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: ...even though it is covered by smoke.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That verse.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That even though one's activities in the material world are covered by faults, still one should perform his activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In India there is a Hindi proverb, bekase begar achar (?)... (end)
Guru-gaurāṅga: Their nice standard of living will be lost.
Prabhupāda: No, why? The standard of living should be one: plain living and God consciousness. That is the disease. Everyone wants to enjoy this material world to his best capacity. Therefore we divide. They don't want to live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Material consciousness. Enjoyment of the senses. And that is the cause of their suffering. Only on account of this sense gratification, they're creating different mentality, and, after death, they're getting different body. That they do not know. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. One is trying to associate with the goodness, brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa qualification, he'll be promoted, and one who is trying to imitate, "I shall be as powerful as the tiger," he'll be degraded. It is nature's law.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one person asked the other day that "You say that we have a choice, that either we can surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or we can remain under the control of the external energy."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But human life is meant for austere and patience. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). Austerity, penance, that is human life. Otherwise, it is animal life. Simply animal civilization. It is not human civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (car is in gas station, conversation in car about how much gas to get, etc.) (break) ...progressing, they stand their own position, as they are made by nature. Therefore there is no criminality. They are under full control of nature. We are also under full control of nature, but we have been given little concession: to cultivate spiritual knowledge. So that intelligence, extra intelligence, what we have got, instead of cultivating spiritual knowledge, we are using in the same process of sense gratification like the animals. And this, this business, this, means animalistic business in a polished way, is going on as civilization. Actually, it is animalistic. But it is little decorated or polished, and they have accepted, "This is civilization." In other words, they do not know what is human civilization. They do not know. They're animals. They do not know. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (about getting gas:) For this service, they do charge anything? No.
Prabhupāda: They have been cheated by some cheaters that this practice, gymnastic practice, is yoga. That's all. They do not know what is yoga. Yoga-indriya-saṁyama. Even... All yoga systems, Patañjali's system. So indriya... Where is indriya-saṁyama? They are gratifying their senses to the fullest extent. And what is their yoga? That is described... You do not read the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you explain them that, that "You are yogi... You not yogi. You only making some farce. Where is your yogi? Are you going to a solitary place? Are you practicing alone, sitting on your seat like as they are described, and looking on the point of the nose? Are you doing that? You are not yogi. You are simply a caricature. You are not yogi." Don't accept them as yogis. If one is yogi... That, that, that gentleman, that yogi came there. He appreciated very much.
Prabhupāda: Hm. And people are starving for want of. There was a cartoon that some public came to some minister: "Sir, we are starving. Give us our food." So the reply was: "Of course, that's a problem, food problem. But I can assure you that from next week you'll have television." (laughter) These rascals are like that. "Next, from next week, you'll have television, atom bomb. Never mind. Starve." (laughter) So that is also becoming fool's paradise. Jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava. In this way, the more we increase sense, sense gratification by advancement of material..., the more we forget Kṛṣṇa. And more we forget Kṛṣṇa, we are more fools. (aside:) Don't come so near.
Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...samudvigna, always full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Intelligence is always absorbed: "Enemy may not come. Let me discover this, discover this atom bomb. This will save me. This will save me." This is their position. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Why this anxiety? Because they have accepted something false as truth. Asad-grahāt. They have accepted sense gratification is the truth. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. Indriyāṇi means senses. Parā, supreme. This is supreme. And then, if somebody is little advanced, indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. Then the mental speculators, psychologists, philosophers, another, better class of rascals... This is the third-class rascal, and they are second-class rascal. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ, manasas tu parā buddhiḥ (BG 3.42). Then the intelligent class.
Satsvarūpa:
- kāmasya nendriya-prītir
- lābho jīveta yāvatā
- jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā
- nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ
- (SB 1.2.10)
"Translation: Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses. One should desire to live only because human life enables one to inquire about the Absolute Truth. This should be the goal of all works." (German)
Prabhupāda: Te, what is that? Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā, inquiring about the Absolute Truth, that is the only business of human being.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science cannot conquer the laws of nature. That is why they try to think only about the body, the bodily concept. To give them comfort to the body by...
Prabhupāda: Sense gratification. That's all. Everything ending in sense gratification. That's all. (japa)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's like it is a fashion to try to violate the laws of nature. It is becoming very popular.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is childish. That a child says, "No, no." Mother says, "Sit down." "No, no." (laughter) One! "Ahhhh." (laughter) Mother is the nature, and child is trying to violate the orders of mother. This is the position. So who will take them very seriously?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why they suffer the result.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Suffer is suffered(?). Tayā sammohito jīva ātmānam tri-guṇātmakam. Yayā sammohito... There is a verse. Yaya sammohito jīva ātmanam tri-guṇātmakam, manute anartham... (SB 1.7.5).
Prabhupāda: They do not know.
Devotee: They think it is necessary to gratify the senses.
Prabhupāda: They think that, that by gratifying senses... Therefore they are having the same sex at home, again going to the naked dance. They think, "This thing will be able to give me happiness." But that is not giving, actually. Then they become mad.
Brahmānanda: Chewing the chewed.
Prabhupāda: Chewing the chewed, that's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). They do not know. That is the mistake of the whole civilization. They do not know what is the necessity. They are manufacturing, durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ. By adjustment of this external energy they are trying. You'll see the whole world, especially in the western world, they do not know what is the necessity. Here at least there are śāstras, there are gurus, people at least taking, still, although it is dead now. But in the western world they do not know at all. Their only happiness is this sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). Itching. Itching sensation. More and more itching and the itches are increasing. Kaṇḍūyanena... They examples are given very nice. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. Karayoḥ means hands. There is itching sensation, like this, like this, like this. And the itching disease is increasing.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Jayatīrtha: So the purpose of having the Society is to show the devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according to your instruction.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that a fool's paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC. They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise. At least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes, then he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then it is fool's paradise. So somehow or other, we have got now a position. People likes us. So we should not spoil by personal sense gratification. That is my request. If we can maintain this institution rigidly according to the order, then many people will be benefited. By seeing our behavior, by character, they will become. Apani ācāri prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. The leader should be ideal.
Hṛdayānanda: (Spanish) He says that the goal of life is to achieve the transcendence.
Prabhupāda: Yes, right. The goal of life is realization of transcendence. So, that they are forgetting. They have made their goal of life as sense gratification. (translated into Spanish by Hṛdayānanda)
Professor: What kind of transcendence would that be?
Prabhupāda: Transcendence means the Absolute Truth. What do you mean by transcendence?
Professor: By transcendence, I understand it, the universal consciousness. The search for God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, right you are. This life, human life, is distinguished from animal life because the animal cannot inquire about transcendence. The human life, if it is not interested in transcendence, then he is animal. If simply he is interested with the bodily demands of life, namely eating, sleeping, sex and defense, these are bodily demands of life. So if we think that "Dog is eating on the street, and we are eating very palatable dishes, nicely made, very tasteful. That is advancement of civilization," that is not advancement of civilization because it is, after all, eating.
- anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ
- jñānakarmādy-anāvṛtam
- ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-
- śilānaṁ bhaktir uttama
- (Brs. 1.1.11)
This is the definition of pure devotee. "If God satisfies me in my sense gratification, then I love God. Otherwise I have no connection with Him." That is not devotion; that is business. So business-type devotion is not devotion. It is devotion—it may be accepted as a pious activity, not devotion. Devotion is transcendental to pious and impious activity. Just like Arjuna was thinking to fight with his cousin-brothers and kill them is impious. But when he understood, "Kṛṣṇa wants this fight," he transcended the impious activity, and by the order of Kṛṣṇa he killed his relative. Therefore this devotion is above the position of pious and impious activity. Therefore it is called transcendental.
Prabhupāda: But what is the necessity of preaching void? Void is void, that's all.
Rūpānuga: There's nothing to say about that. But because they're saying that, the people think that at the time of death there's nothing, so they want sense gratification. So the scientists are selling them their gadgets. They're selling them cars and things to keep them in sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: We can see when a man is in coma, he cries, he suffers. Before death when a man is in coma sometimes tears come. Now why he says there is nothing? Imperfect knowledge, that's all. Misguiding people.
Rūpānuga: The last chapter's the nicest.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The last chapter is—that Śrīla Prabhupāda suggested—that was "The Original Idea is Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: India? No, I'm not speaking of India.
Satsvarūpa: Kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, kāma, yes. Read it.
Satsvarūpa: "Life's desires should never be aimed at gratifying the senses."
Prabhupāda: Read the verses.
Satsvarūpa:
- kāmasya nendriya-prītir
- lābho jīveta yāvatā
- jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā
- nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ
- (SB 1.2.10)
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the meaning that kāmasya, we have got some demands of the body. That does not mean it is meant for sense gratification. We require something, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam, these four things are the demands of the body. We must eat something, we must sleep for some time, we must have sex life also, we must defend. That is all right but not for sense gratification. That a child is required, progeny is required, for that sex life is good, but they are using sex life for pleasure and killing the child. And implicated in sinful activities and therefore suffering. And scientists encouraging them, "Yes, you can kill child."Why should you create child and kill him? That nonsense, they cannot understand.
Prabhupāda: "Late"?
Indian man: The one which is recognized and the one which is not recognized by the society. That is the (Sanskrit).
Prabhupāda: So society recognizes the sense gratification, whether it is bhidheya or abhidheya?
Indian man: What is bhideya or abhidheya?
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā says, sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriya grāhyam (BG 6.21). Bliss which is supreme, that is to be appreciated by atīndriya. Atīndriya means beyond the senses. So those who are indulging in senses, the Tantra indulges in senses. Is that spiritual? That is not spiritual. That is material.
Indian man: You have to use the material, all the potential...
Prabhupāda: No. Atīndriya. You haven't got to use this material (break) ...enjoy the spiritual senses, one has to not only stop, but undergo tapasya, tapo divyam. Just like a man is diseased, he wants to eat, but due to the disease he cannot eat. So first of all, you have to cure the disease, then your eating will be a pleasure. And if you want to eat in the diseased condition, then the taste will not be proper; you cannot eat. A man suffering from jaundice, if you give him sugar candy, he will taste it bitter. The same man, when he is cured, he will taste the sugar candy as very sweet. Tapo divyaṁ yena putrakā śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1). You have to purify your existence by tapasya. And tapasya means stops material sense gratification. (Hindi) (Someone enters room) Ah, thank you. So you have translated in Parsi?
Dr. Movebhed: Yes.
Santoṣa: Control means protect. (break)
Prabhupāda: Suffering for all these sinful activities, always throbbing. See the newspaper. The newspaper is full of news—one side, everyone is restless condition, throbbing, and another news, sense gratification. That's all.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it necessary for people to leave the cities and live in our varṇāśrama situations in order to become happy?
Prabhupāda: You haven't got to leave anything, provided you understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not after leaving or accepting. We are not after this. We are after understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What... What shall I leave? Suppose if I leave city—I come here—still it is God's property. So what, what I leave? What I have got that I have to leave? Everything God's property. If you have something, then you can leave. But if you have nothing, what you will leave? It is another bogus. This is Māyāvādī theory. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Why jagan mithyā? If Brahman is satya, jagan is also satya. (break) ...means they are trying to possess, and the jñānīs are trying to leave—both of them rascals. Where is the question of possessing? Stealing. You... I want to possess, but that thing does not belong to me. Therefore it is stealing. And the jñānīs are trying to give up living. That is also not truth. But you haven't got anything, so what you are going to leave? So both are in ignorance, the karmīs and jñānīs, the yogis. Simply Kṛṣṇa conscious persons, they are in knowledge. Before your birth the land was there, the world was there. Everything is there. Now you came. Then how do you possess? Before your birth, things were there. How do you possess unless you steal and cheat? Hm? What is the answer?
Prabhupāda: ...seeking the necessities of the body, but kāṣṭān, with great labor. This is civilization. Kāṣṭān karma. The ultimate end is sense gratification, which the dogs and hogs also enjoy without any hard labor, and they think that after working very, very hard, twenty-four hours, and driving the motorcars in three hundred miles speed, this is civilization. The end is the same—sex, that's all, which the cats and dogs enjoy in the street. And they have made this civilization, you see. Working very hard, and enjoy the sex. Is it not?
Satsvarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What else they are getting?
Satsvarūpa: Well, they say that civilization is more than that. It's...
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Satsvarūpa: Well, culture...
Prabhupāda: What is that culture? Your culture is the same—sex. As soon as there was no light, immediately there was pregnancy. That is the statistic record.
Brahmānanda: Why can't we have sense gratification and God also at the same time?
Prabhupāda: That is Bhagavad-gītā, that aviruddho-kāmo 'smi. "Sense gratification which is not against religious principles, that sense gratification I am," Kṛṣṇa says. We do not stop sense gratification, but we want to regulate sense gratification like a gentleman, not like hogs and dogs. That is human civilization. Sense gratification like hogs and dogs, not required. Sense gratification... People are following that. Although they are so degraded, still, they have not sanctioned as yet to have openly sense gratification on the street like hogs and dogs. That is regulated. That's still going on. But because the civilization is gliding down to animalism, they don't want this restriction. That is the hippies' protest, that, "Why this convention required? Let us enjoy like hogs and dogs." That is advancement.
Viṣṇujana: The scientists are helping them to do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pañcadraviḍa: What shall we... Why should we enjoy sense gratification like gentlemen?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: Why should a person...
Prabhupāda: Why do you do it? That is the, already there. Why don't you have sense gratification on the street?
Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they're already having. People are already having.
Prabhupāda: Not having very freely, not very freely.
Brahmānanda: It's against the law.
Prabhupāda: Ah, against the law.
Prabhupāda: That Rāmacandra knows. You go there. (break)
Tripurāri: "...enjoyment comes from the fact that he thinks he's saving the world. He's out preaching. Your enjoyment is simply subtle sense gratification."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tripurāri: They say that our enjoyment is subtle sense gratification. We feel we're saving the world. Therefore we get some pleasure from that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you say sense gratification, senses are there, and senses want satisfaction, but you can know the proper way of satisfaction. That we are teaching. We do not say that "Make your senses blunt." But you enjoy properly. That is stated, tapo divyaṁ yena śuddhyet sattva hy asmad brahma-saukhyam anantam (SB 5.5.1). You are wanting sense gratification, but it is being checked up on account of your diseased condition of life. Therefore you purify yourself. Then you enjoy senses perpetually. This is the injunction. We are not stopping sense gratification. But you are trying to gratify senses in your diseased condition. Just like if you are feverish, you cannot enjoy to eat a rasagullā. It will be not tasteful. So cure yourself and enjoy rasagullā. That is our program.
Trivikrama: Double-talk. Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Why did God arrange for the pleasures of sense gratification if He wants us to go back to home, back to Godhead? Prabhupāda: Yes, senses are meant for enjoyment. But if you want to enjoy your senses in diseased condition, that is your misfortune. You have to cure your disease, then you will enjoy. Just like the tongue, in diseased condition, even if you are given rasagullā, you will not taste it. Senses, we are not the Māyāvādīs, they finish the senses, make, become impersonal. That is not our program. We want to purify the senses. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Purīfy. The diseased man, he cannot see. He has got some glaucoma disease. Cure it, and he will see very nicely. That is our program. The Māyāvādī program is that if this eye is giving trouble, I cannot see, pluck it out. We are not doing that, we are trying to cure the disease and see. So senses should be cured, and then you will be able to enjoy. That is our program. We are not stopping sense enjoyment; we are trying to give you real sense enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: That's said. And that is much. These rascals are chewing the chewed. One thing one has chewed, and throwing it, and again another person trying to chew it—if there is any mellow, if there is any sweetness. This is going on. Just like our Indian leaders, they are going to chewing the chewed. They are seeing the effect of material civilization in the Western countries, and they are going to imitate it, thinking that they will be happy with that. They are giving up their own culture, and they are going to accept another culture which is already failed (?) andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31).
- matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā
- mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām
- adānta gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ
- punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām
- (SB 7.5.30)
Adānta gobhir. Real disease is adānta go, uncontrolled senses. Viśatāṁ tamisram, entering into the darkest region of material existence. Punaḥ punaś carvita carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed, again and again, the same sense gratification. Sometimes as a human being, sometimes as a hog, sometimes as a dog, sometimes as a demigod. But the business is the same: punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30).
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you take the proper way it can be increased.
Satsvarūpa: Is that just up to our preaching?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That will depend on your purified preaching activities. If you again become materially victimized, then you cannot do it. If you remain on the spiritual platform, if you try, then it will increase. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. It will increase. As soon as there is any contemplation of sense gratification, then the spirit will be lost. Then instead of Christianity, it will be "Churchianity," officially going to the church, doing nothing, and gradually nobody will go.
Rūpānuga: Like the Christians.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Christians... Now who are coming here, in so many temples? Nobody is coming. They have made it a business, "Oh, the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's birthday, you come here." And somebody will come, collect some money, and then there is no business—go away.
Prabhupāda: Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī (BG 6.1). Anāśritaḥ kar... Everyone is expecting some good result for his sense gratification. That is āśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ. He has taken the shelter of good result. But one who does not take shelter of the result of activities... It is my duty. Karyam. Karyam means "It is my duty. Doesn't matter what is the result. I must do it sincerely to my best capacity. Then I don't care for the result. Result is in Kṛṣṇa's hand." Karyam: "It is my duty. My Guru Mahārāja said it, so it is my duty. It doesn't matter whether it is successful or not successful. That depends on Kṛṣṇa." In this way, anyone, if he works, then he is a sannyāsī. Not the dress, but the attitude of working. Yes, that is sannyāsa. Karyam: "It is my duty." Sa sannyāsī ca yogī ca. He is yogi, first-class yogi. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna officially, he did not take sannyāsa. He was a gṛhastha, soldier. But when he took it very seriously, karyam—"Kṛṣṇa wants this fight. Never mind I have to kill my relatives. I must do it"—that is sannyāsa. First of all he argued with Kṛṣṇa that "This kind of fighting is not good, family killing...," and so on, so on, so on. He argued. But after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, when he understood that "It is my duty. Kṛṣṇa wants me to do it." Karyam. So in spite of his becoming a householder, a soldier, he's a sannyāsī. He took it-karyam. Karyam means "It is my duty." That is real sannyāsa. "Kṛṣṇa wants that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must be spread. So this is my karyam. This is my duty. And the direction is my spiritual master. So I must do it." This is sannyāsa. This is sannyāsa, sannyāsa mentality. But there is formality. That should... That may be accepted.
Prabhupāda: Love means that I want to eat something, and if I love somebody, then I will see that my beloved also eats. If you take something from your beloved, naturally the lovers present things. Just a boy loves a girl. He presents something to the girl. So, if you accept presentation by others, we should give him also something. And, if I have got some confidential thing, I must disclose it to the lover, and the lover is also expected, he should not keep anything confidential. He should disclose it. These are the six reciprocal exchanges between the lover and the beloved. If I love you, because you are beautiful, for my sense gratification, but I keep everything secret, that is not love. That is sense gratification. Lust. These are the signs of love.
- dadāti pratigṛhṇāti
- bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva
- guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati
- ca ṣaḍ-vidhaṁ prīti-lakṣaṇam
Prīti means love. These are the symptoms. Give and take, eat and give to eat, open you mind, and know the other party's mind also. This is love. The more you increase the six kinds of exchange, there is increase in the love.
Prabhupāda: They are this part of Indian, the Fiji Indians. They have learned the art of divorce.
Amogha: They are very Western, westernized.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can the position be reconciled if in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one of the two, the husband or the wife, wants to enjoy sense gratification, but the other does not? Should there be separation then?
Prabhupāda: No... They should be trained up. Sense enjoyment means not advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as one is advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his sense enjoyment spirit will be reduced. That is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (SB 11.2.42). The test is, how you are advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the proportionate diminishing of sense enjoyment. That is the test. Just like cure of the disease means diminishing the fever, temperature. This is the test.
Prabhupāda: This world is full of problems. I have said. If you go this way, sense gratification, then you will have only problem. And if you go this way, towards God, there will be no problem. Because nature will put forward so many obstacles if you go. Because this is not the way of life, human life. Animal life, that is another thing. But they do not know. But human life, he is given the opportunity to go towards God, but he does not take this opportunity. He goes towards animal. Then there will be problem. Nature will not excuse. "So you are given the opportunity, and you are again becoming animal? You must suffer." This is nature's way. Therefore they are suffering problems. So many directors, so many government, the problem cannot be solved. That is nature's way. These foolish persons, they should know how nature is working. Find out this verse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). They are thinking, "I am director," "I am minister," "I am this, I am..."
Prabhupāda: That we are loving. We are giving Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is loving, real loving. We are giving him eternal life, eternal bliss. Unless we love them, why we are taking so much trouble? The preacher must love the people. Otherwise why he is taking? He can do it for himself at home. Why he is taking so much trouble? Why in eighty years old I have come here if I do not love? So who can love better than a preacher? He loves even the animals. Therefore they are preaching, "Don't take meat." Do they love the animals, rascals? They are eating, and they love their country, that's all. Nobody loves. It is simply sense gratification. If somebody loves, he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. All rascals. They are after their own sense gratification, and they will put a signboard, "I love everyone." This is their business. And fools are accepting, "Oh, this man is very philanthropic." He does not love any man. He loves only senses. That's all. The servant of the senses, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Then it will be regular. It is nature's punishment. You may not care what is sinful life, but that is recorded. That is foolishness. "I don't care for God, don't care for what is going to happen." That is foolishness. People, lower planetary system, they are like that. In this planet also. In Western countries there are many places. "Don't care for anything, what is sinful life, what is going to happen. Let us enjoy, that's all." This is their philosophy. "Let us enjoy, that's all." Materialistic point of view is like that. They do not know that we are eternal and we are responsible for our activities. That is knowledge. But they have no knowledge. They simply want to enjoy. They do not care for death also. Simply sense gratification. That's all. This is called dānava, dānava life. The scientist explain for so many varieties. They accept there are varieties. Why there are so many varieties of life?
Hari-śauri: They were simply approximating. They said from recent discoveries and examination of fossils and like this...
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Devotee 4: What is the advantage of going...
Prabhupāda: To get impetus to go back to home, back to Godhead. To come to Australia we get impetus to go to hell. (laughter) (break) Hell means anywhere where material happiness is given more importance. Mahat-sevāṁ dvā r a m āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi... In the western countries and..., they are simply busy in sense gratification. So that is the way of hell. (break)
Devotee 5: ...said that "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God."
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Devotee 5: You have said, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God." Well, um, what I want to know is, is not God eternal, therefore how was there a beginning? And if the beginning was the word, who was it spoken by or how was it spoken if it was the beginning?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? In the beginning there was word. So what is the difficulty to understand?
Devotee 1:. He's saying if everything is eternal, then how was there a beginning?
Prabhupāda: Beginning of this material world. This material world has beginning and end. Just like this material season, it has beginning and end. Hm. This is troublesome.
Prabhupāda: That's what the Communists say. They do not believe in God. So?
Harikeśa: Believing in God makes it all worthwhile. It makes you feel better while you're working hard.
Prabhupāda: Those who are atheists, they are also working hard. They are feeling nice by drinking. Why shall I believe in God? Let me drink.
Harikeśa: Because they're being satisfied by sense gratification, but in...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Why shall I believe in God? Sense gratification is there. Why shall I believe in God?
Upendra: There has to be a certain amount of self-respect that the Christians give the people...
Prabhupāda: Nobody respects. Nowadays, if somebody is religious, he is thought of as a fool. He's not...
Siddha-svarūpa: Actually, because what you're saying is right, people are going away from religion. There is no use for it anymore.
Prabhupāda: No religion. No, they do not know what is the meaning of religion. Therefore they create some religious system. They create: "Let me create something. After all, it is bluffing. So if I can..." Just like this, from India there are so many come. Here also there are many. They create some. It is... After all, it is bluffing. "So let me create something." Real business is to bluff and take money.
Prabhupāda: I have seen in the Hawaii University, all hippies.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. In Hawaii it's very loose. For instance, even the high schools, they're mostly very loose. But when, after it gets too loose, then the students go so much into sense gratification that then there becomes... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...solution, they will not take it.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, because it would mean they would have... (break)
Prabhupāda: He is very intelligent.
Siddha-svarūpa: He speaks straight from his heart so you can... (break) ...that Yogi Bhajan's philosophy though. He wants everybody to come to the... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...is responsible for the mistake of the followers.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is helping us. Take advantage of it. (break) Vyāsadeva compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam for this purpose. Anartha upasamam sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaja. These lokasya ajānataḥ, people are suffering on account of ignorance, so to give them proper knowledge, he made this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (break) Who can become more learned than Vyāsadeva? Therefore he is known as vidvān, the most, supreme learned. He made this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam to help these rascals who are spoiling their life only in sense gratification. (break) Life is meant for tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). They do not know that our existentional condition is impure. The question does not arise that "I do not wish to die. Why there is death?" They are so dull-headed, this question does not... They are trying to solve so many question, but this question does not arise in their mind, that "I don't wish to die. Why death is forced upon me?" Inquire. Come on, all philosophers and scientists, come and make an inquiry commission, that "I don't want to die. The death is forced upon me. I don't want to become old man, and it is forced upon me. What is the reason?" Therefore they are rascals. The prime problem, they have set aside. Big, big scientists... That Professor Einstein and other, other, they are big, big scientists. They do not consider this question, that "I am a big scientist. So I am also going to die. So why it is?" That question, they have set aside. And they manufacture atom bomb to make dead very easy, not to stop death, but death-making very easily available. This is scientific. Hmm? Is that scientific?
Dr. Gerson: Oh, it is unsuccessful. Yes. I meet many people in the course of my work that are very unhappy because of the frustrations that they experience.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this place is for unhappiness. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find this place, the material world, has been described as duḥkhālayam. Duḥkhālayam means the place of miseries. So how you... If the place is made for miseries, how you can make this place as full of pleasure, if God made like that? Just like if you are put into the prison house and if you want to live very comfortably, is it possible? Prison house is meant for giving you trouble so that you may be rectified, no more stealing, not to become criminal. It is meant for punishment. Similarly, this whole material world is meant for punishing these criminals who wanted to enjoy independently God's property. They are all criminals. We are worshiping the best nationalist, who is thinking in terms that "This place is mine," philanthropist or political leader. But actually, he is a thief because he is claiming God's property as his own. He is a criminal. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram: "I am the proprietor of all the planets, all the universes." Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: (BG 5.29) "I am the friend of all living entities." But these people, they are claiming that... The leader is claiming, "I am the friend," and he is claiming, "I am the proprietor." They are, therefore, criminal. He is not friend. Just like your president. He is not friend of the countrymen. So this is the position of the most exalted man, and what to speak of the ordinary man? Nobody is friend. All enemies. Therefore I am envious of you, you are envious of me. There is no question of becoming friend because everyone is selfish. He wants his personal benefit, so how he can become other's friend? This is false. By false pretension, he is occupying big, big post and taking money for his sense gratification. That's all.
Bahulāśva: Not just reading the books but there also must be chanting and following the regulative principles.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you will turn your America as Vaikuṇṭha. And that is your duty, to save your countrymen. I think the America is... The people were pious in their past life. They have got this opulent position. Now they should use this opulent position. They have no poverty. They haven't got to work so hard, and they take advantage of this knowledge. Other countries, they are poor. They are busy how to earn their livelihood. But your country, because you are favored on account of your previous pious activities, you should utilize this position. People are embarrassed for improving their economic condition in other countries. Of course, if one is cultured, he is not embarrassed in any condition of life. But without Kṛṣṇa culture, poverty-stricken people, they are very much hampered. So you have no such problem. Therefore you can utilize your position, this opulent position, for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As a learned scholar you should advocate this cause. Why should you waste your time in sense gratification? That is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs. Why this life? That is also... We have described in the Fifth Canto, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). For simply to satisfy the senses, why you should make such a gorgeous program for working? The sense gratification is enjoyed even by the hogs, the stool-eater. This particular animal is mentioned because they are gratifying senses without any discrimination. You will find the hogs eating stool, and they are with mothers and sister and have sex life, that's all. They have no discrimination. So this kind of sense gratification is there in the hog's life. So are the human beings to imitate the hog's life? This is the question.
Prabhupāda: Indriyāṇi parāṇy ahuḥ. Para. You better come here.
Jayatīrtha:
- indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
- indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
- manasas tu parā buddhir
- yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ
- (BG 3.42)
Translation: The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he (the soul) is even higher than the intelligence.
Purport: The senses are different outlets for the activities of lust. Lust is reserved within the body, but it is given vent through the senses. Therefore, the senses are superior to the body as a whole. These outlets are not in use when there is superior consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness the soul makes direct connection with the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore the bodily functions, as described here, ultimately end in the Supreme Soul. Bodily action means the functions of the senses, and stopping the senses means stopping all bodily actions. But since the mind is active, then, even though the body may be silent and at rest, the mind will act—as it does during dreaming. But, above the mind there is the determination of the intelligence, and above the intelligence is the soul proper. If, therefore, the soul is directly engaged with the Supreme, naturally all other subordinates, namely, the intelligence, mind and the senses, will be automatically engaged. In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad there is a passage in which it is said that the objects of sense gratification are superior to the senses, and mind is superior to the sense objects. If, therefore, the mind is directly engaged in the service of the Lord constantly, then there is no chance of the senses becoming engaged in other ways. This mental attitude has already been explained. If the mind is engaged in the transcendental service of the Lord, there is no chance of its being engaged in the lower propensities. In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad the soul has been described as mahān, the great. Therefore the soul is above all-namely, the sense objects, the senses, the mind and the intelligence. Therefore, directly understanding the constitutional position of the soul is the solution of the whole problem.
With intelligence one has to seek out the constitutional position of the soul and then engage the mind always in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That solves the whole problem. A neophyte spiritualist is generally advised to keep aloof from the objects of senses. One has to strengthen the mind by use of intelligence. If by intelligence one engages one's mind in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, by complete surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then, automatically, the mind becomes stronger, and even though the senses are very strong, like serpents, they will be no more effective than serpents with broken fangs. But even though the soul is the master of intelligence and mind, and the senses also, still, unless it is strengthened by association with Kṛṣṇa in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is every chance of falling down due to the agitated mind.
Prabhupāda: Hm. The yogic process is to control the mind. Our process is: immediately engage the mind in Kṛṣṇa, thinking of Kṛṣṇa, feeling for Kṛṣṇa, willing to act for Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right. Then everything will be all right. If the mind is immediately engaged in the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then this side and that side, everything will be all right. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). Padāravindayoḥ, in the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa mind is engaged. So this is our process, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma...," engaging the mind, meditation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate. The first thing is that people become religious. Just like in your Christian religion they go to the church to get some material profit. "Oh God, give us our daily bread." This is material profit. Similarly, Hindus or Muslims, they become religious, dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90), the material activities. Those who are actually advanced... Those who are not even human beings, their philosophy is different. Those who are human beings, their dharma, religion. Then artha, economic development, and then kāma, sense gratification, and then mokṣa, liberation. These four things are taken as general activities. So Bhāgavata says your dharma... Religious principle means the ultimate goal is how to become liberated, not artha. Artha means economic development. So then question may be if you do not, if we are not economically developed then how we shall live? The Bhāgavata says that you can make economic development as far as it maintains your body and soul together. Not that making whole life economic development and real purpose of life forget. This is foolishness. So dharma, artha. Dharma means, religious advancement means how to get out of this material condition. Not that I go to temple and chant, "God, give me millions of dollars, and this, and that." This is not possible. It is good that one has gone to God to ask some help, that much credit is there. You have found out the verse?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya. Read it.
Brahmānanda:
- dharmasya hy āpavargyasya
- nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate
- nārthasya dharmaikāntasya
- kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ
- (SB 1.2.9)
"All occupational engagements are certainly meant for ultimate liberation. They should never be performed for material gain. Furthermore, one who is engaged in the ultimate occupational service should never use material gain to cultivate sense gratification."
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Brahmānanda: We have already discussed that pure devotional service to the Lord is automatically followed by perfect knowledge and detachment from material existence. But there are others who consider that all kinds of different occupational engagements, including those of religion, are meant for material gain. The general tendency of any ordinary man in any part of the world is to gain some material profit in exchange for religious or any other occupational service. Even in the Vedic literatures, for all sorts of religious performances an allurement of material gain is offered, and most people are attracted by such allurements or blessings of religiosity. Why are such so-called men of religion allured by material gain? Because material gain can enable one to fulfill desires, which in turn satisfy sense gratification. This cycle of occupational engagements includes so-called religiosity followed by material gain and material gain followed by fulfillment of desires. Sense gratification is the general way for all sorts of fully occupied men. But in the statement of Sūta Gosvāmī, as per the verdict of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, this is nullified by the present śloka.
One should not engage himself in any sort of occupational service for material gain only. Nor should material gain be utilized for sense gratification. How material gain should be utilized is described as follows.
Prabhupāda: People are after material gain. They have no spiritual information even, what is spirit, what is the need of spiritual realization, they do not know. Therefore they have been described as mūḍhas: fools and rascals. Those who are after material way of...
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Satsvarūpa: Purport. "Two persons, one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such his bodily and mental activities should be engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The ignorant man forgets that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as Hṛṣīkeśa, or the master of the senses of the material body, for due to his long misuse of the senses in sense gratification, he is factually bewildered by the false ego, which makes him forget his eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: So this is false ego, to think of oneself as free. You are professor of economics?
Mr. Surface: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I think I may remember. There is economist professor, Marshall? Marshall's economics?
Mr. Surface: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Nature's arrangement... In this material world you cannot eat without working. Even if you are lion-lion is considered to be the most powerful animal—he has to capture one animal. He cannot think that "Let me sleep, and the animal will come automatically in my mouth." It is not possible. You have to work; this is the material world. So that work is simple work. If you have got land... Everyone has got land. You just work little, and it will produce your food grains. And the food grains will give food to the animal and man. The animal, cow, he will eat the grass, and you will take the grains. Why should you kill the animal? You haven't got to arrange for his food. You produce paddy. The plant, when it is dried, it is good for animals, and you take the grains. Why should you kill him? And he will deliver you. If you protect his life, he will give you nice milk. So you keep animal, cows, and grow food grain; then your food problem is solved. So if your food problem is solved and your cloth problems is solved, then where is your economic necessity? Then you save time and cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So real business will be how to cultivate, how to become advanced in God consciousness. That the animal cannot do. You are claiming more intelligence than the animals, so use your intelligence in this way. Don't spoil day and night for your economic development. So-called economic development means as soon as you become stout and strong, then sense gratification. Then you cultivate the culture of nudism. That Los Angeles beach, "Beach for nudies." Is not written there?
Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Etaj jñānam. The items prescribed by Kṛṣṇa, that is knowledge. And everything is no knowledge. Translation, you read.
Satsvarūpa: "Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity, approaching a bona fide spiritual master, cleanliness, steadiness and self-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification, absence of false ego, the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease; nonattachment to children, wife, home and the rest, and evenmindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me, resorting to solitary places, detachment from the general mass of people, accepting the importance of self-realization, and philosophical search for the Absolute Truth—all these I thus declare to be knowledge,..."
Prabhupāda: This is knowledge, path of knowledge.
Satsvarūpa: "... and what is contrary to these is ignorance."
Prabhupāda: That's it. There are eighteen or twenty items of knowledge. The human society is not interested with those eighteen items, and they are simply interested in so-called economic development, technology, mental speculation. That is ignorance. That is not knowledge. They do not know what is knowledge. Just like the first item is... What is that? Amānitvam.
Prabhupāda: Let people be engaged. Machine means one man or two man working... That will mean unemployment. Machine means unemployment. The principle should be that everyone is employed. Either brāhmaṇa, either kṣatriya, either vaiśya or śūdra. Nobody should become idle and gossiping, and sleeping, then utilize... This should be principle. Everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then life is successful. And self-sufficient. If we have got spoiling living program, these are necessities. Growing, cultivating, producing, there will be not possibility of, and we don't want more than the necessity. If by God's grace we get more then you can make sale, we are not going to work for selling purpose. Then money will be there. How to get money, how to get money? And as soon as you get money, more than necessity, then sense gratification, then this, that, this, that, then you become implicated. Ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta... ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). As soon as you become implicated with material want, gṛha, kṣetra, vittair, ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta, children, wife, friendship, then the false ego, "I am this body and this is my property," will increase. For that is material world. People do not know the end of life, or the aim of life. They are misguided, hence the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to give them an ideal way of life. So this is very nice place. We have got small lakes also. Natural we have?
Nityānanda: No, you can make them.
Prabhupāda: How? How low is the water?
Nityānanda: Ten feet.
Prabhupāda: Well then go and marry there. If the state of California allows that, then they all can go to California.
Nityānanda: The general public objects to that... It's very...
Prabhupāda: Public we don't care. We... What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub... What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don't give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that's all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Mūḍhas, they have been described, mūḍhas. You know the meaning of mūḍha?
Devotee (1): Ass.
Prabhupāda: Ass. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramaṁ mama.
Nityānanda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food independently?
Prabhupāda: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Community means work everything for the community.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal. This is a rascal civilization. Rascal civilization: one side, they say contraceptive; another side, they will encourage woman to marry three times a week. This is their civilization. If you want stop population why you are inducing "Indulge in sex life"? Stop sex life—brahmacārī. Everything is contradictory. And it is all sense gratification, based on sense gratification.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If a person is not satisfying his senses they think he is crazy.
Prabhupāda: But where is your sense satisfied? You are crazy. You are repeatedly being kicked by nature, that your senses will never be satisfied. Still, you are trying for that. Even the old man of eighty years old, he is going to the nightclub. Where is sense satis... When his senses will be satisfied? (aside) Jaya. Relaxation. If somebody is relaxing, chanting, they will induce, "Oh, you are escaping."
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: So, your instructions in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam can stop their lust? It can stop... By hearing from Vedic authorities, their lust can be dissolved? Or do they have to just simply be frustrated in their attempts to enjoy sense gratification?
Prabhupāda: They are being frustrated. Who is successful in the material world? Have you got any instance that he is successful? (pause) Then?
Vāsughoṣa: In every field someone is miserable. Just in America there was one lady, very famous etiquette expert, Amy Vanderbilt. So she jumped out of her window. She was sixty-nine years old.
Prabhupāda: There are many. I saw in Detroit, I think. The bridge is covered?
Brahmānanda: San Francisco. The Golden Gate Bridge they have put...
Prabhupāda: Not Golden Gate. That San Diego, I think. We crossed one bridge to go to the...
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes, San Diego also. They have these fences so when people jump off they are caught by the fences. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: And I think in Berkeley? The tower?
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. In the college university they have a big clock tower...
Prabhupāda: These are the signs how they are disappointed. They are always ready to commit suicide. So where is success?
Vāsughoṣa: They are practically committing suicide by their activities.
Prabhupāda: No other way.
Cyavana: They have no other way to learn, unless they will accept Veda, which they won't accept. (break) ...sense gratification. They enjoy making so many theories.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Mano-ratha: "Chariot of mind."
Cyavana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. By his chariot of the mind he will be driven to this material consciousness. (break) ...spiritual knowledge. Therefore, we see, big, big scientists, they are thinking that combination of matter can produce life. In spite of so much advanced learning, they do not know what is life. They cannot create life; still, they will theorize. How foolish they are. And as soon as you catch his throat, "Produce life." "No, we shall do it in future." Just see.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes people ask that "If God is so great, then why doesn't He just come and destroy all the evil?"
Prabhupāda: Because you have to suffer. You are rascal. You must suffer. Therefore evil must be there.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Although it says in the Bible even that one should praise the Lord's name with cymbals and drums...
Prabhupāda: They have no concern with Bible and God and everything. They are simply after sense gratification. What is the use of quoting about Bible? They don't care for Bible. The Europeans, Americans, they have rejected, thrown away, kicked out Bible because (it is) unscientific. Actually they do not accept. Although they call themselves Christian, they do not accept anything of Bible. That is... Bible is finished. There is no meaning of Bible. Simply for their sectarian prestige, they say "Bible." But actually they have nothing to do with Bible. What do you think?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's true.
Prabhupāda: They do not go to the church, but they come to us for arguing with Bible. Just see. What is the meaning? Their churches have closed, nobody goes, and they come to argue with us with Bible. That means "The Devil cites scripture." They are devils, and they are quoting from Bible.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's mercy. You have accepted Kṛṣṇa's mercy. This is the... (break) This empirical policy was very good, provided it would have been done for Kṛṣṇa. Then they could unite the whole world.
Brahmānanda: They had very good managing talent.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. But the whole thing was planned for their own sense gratification.
Brahmānanda: Exploitation.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If we ever had any kind of power like that and tried to do something like that, they would accuse that this is like the Crusades.
Prabhupāda: Now, Crusades, even... If they could expand the ideas of Christian, love of Godhead, that was nice. But that was not the purpose. It is exploitation.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the śāstra. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Patram means vegetable, leaves; puṣpam, flower. In this way, whatever He says, you collect and offer to Him and take prasādam. Then you are not responsible. And if you collect for yourself even patram without offering to Kṛṣṇa, if you take, you are responsible for killing. It doesn't matter whether you kill a big animal or a small plant. You are responsible. Just like a soldier. He kills hundreds and thousands of men and he is given gold medal. And as soon as he kills one man for his sense gratification he is hanged. Eh? Is it not? He can say, "I have killed so many men. At that time I was not hanged. I was given gold medal. How is that? (laughter) I have killed only one man. I am going to be hanged?" That is law. You cannot do anything on your own account, sense gratification. Then you are responsible. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'ya karma-bandhanaḥ. Everything is stated. Read Bhagavad-gītā very thoroughly and try to understand. Then everything will be clear, how to live, how to organize society. We have to live. The same thing: we are also working, we are also eating, we are sleeping, we are also marrying—but according to Kṛṣṇa's direction. Then it is Kṛṣṇa conscious life and perfect life.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Indian Ocean.
Prabhupāda: Africa, one side Atlantic, one side Indian. (break) ...is growing on the sand, and they say there is no life in the sand. (break—windy beach) ...Bhoga. Bhoga means sense gratification, and aiśvarya, opulence. Bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām: (BG 2.44) "Those who are lost of consciousness, such persons become attached to sense gratification and material opulence," bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayāpahṛta-cetasām, "and not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ: "How to become spiritually liberated, they do not care for it." These things do not interest them.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We're finding that most of our devotees, though, are coming from America. America is the most opulent place.
Prabhupāda: No, no, not most coming. Some coming. The American population is very great. If most would have come, then things would have been different.
Devotee (3): Of Nepal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You know that? (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Whatever the leaders do, then the other people will follow.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...India also there is such tendency towards sense gratification?
Prabhupāda: Everywhere. India... Why do you speak India or America? That is the tendency everywhere.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because when the British came, the Indians took up so many of the habits of the British.
Prabhupāda: No, no, before that also. But that habit was controlled by Indian culture.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I see.
Prabhupāda: That is the specific position of Vedic culture. The habit, that tendency is there, but by Indian Vedic culture these base tendencies are checked and they are made, I mean to say, given opportunity to advance. That is brahminical culture. The brāhmaṇas voluntarily rejected all these. That is ideal, that "Here is an idea!" But here at the present moment there is no such idea! Everyone is after material enjoyment. There is no ideal that "Here is a person who doesn't care for anything. Still he is so exalted." That is wanted. That ideal is not now. Therefore I am trying to create such ideal men.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It is happening actually by this movement.
Prabhupāda: We are not for material opulence. We are for ideal character. That is wanted. But they have no idea that there can be a class of men, ideal character, ideal knowledge, ideal advancement. They have no such idea. "Simply bring money and enjoy sense gratification," that's all. In that way they will never be happy, but foolish person, they have no leader to give them ideal and neither by nature they are not inclined. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). Who is giving them ideal that "Come to God, and you will be satisfied"? Nobody is giving. They are simply durāśayā. They are thinking by material opulence they will be happy. This is their ignorance. Therefore so much struggle all over the world. It is not the question of India or America. It is the material way of life.
Faill: Well, it's just the name they seem to give people who've had an experience of another level of reality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So yes, that... We don't say mystic. Our reality is God realization. There are different stages. I mean to say, direct perception, then receiving knowledge from authority, then personal experience between the two, then above that transcendental, and then, I mean to say, spiritual. In this way we have to go, step by step. We have to come to the point, to the spiritual platform. So, so long we are on the bodily concept of life, our understanding is sense gratification because body means the senses. And then, if we go still up, then we can see that mind is the center of sense activities. We take the mind as the final, and that is mental platform. Then, from mental platform, we come to the intellectual platform. Then, from intellectual platform, we come to the transcendental platform.
Prabhupāda: Primitive, yes. But primitive meat-eating is continued. That is not to be stopped, primitive drinking and meat-eating.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like a tissue, Srila Prabhupada? A tissue?
Prabhupāda: No. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: … it is misdirected and simply based on sense gratification, has no purpose. So people may question us that we are putting forward a civilization which India had practiced for thousands of years.
Prabhupāda: Why you speak of India?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, because when we speak of Vedic culture, at least contemporarily speaking, people think of India. Even few hundred years ago, all the ācāryas…
Prabhupāda: All right, India. Then?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then the point is that they criticize that how we can preach such a civilization to the Western countries if even it's not working in India today. Although theoretically it's perfect, practically it's not working.
Prabhupāda: No. Practically, because you have preached your culture in India; therefore they have lost their own culture. The Western, the Britishers were for two hundred years and they preached. Their policy was to kill the Indian culture. Because that report of Lord McCauley, after studying Indian situation, the report was to the Parliament that "If you keep India as Indian, then you will not be able to rule over them," so therefore there was regular policy to kill Indian civilization. And because they were on the governing power, they could do it. Therefore India lost its own culture and victimized by the Western culture. This is the position.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Actually our theory, even taken as a theory, that the soul is there and enters the body, and when the soul leaves, the body is finished, it's very palatable, very palatable. Very few people argue with it. It's simply that they've been miseducated. Therefore they are cheated. They accept.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difficulty, that, wholesale people have been miseducated. That is our protest. And this miseducated is ruling the whole world, all rascals (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...cheated in some business transaction, they become very mad, angry, so much so sometimes they want to kill the opposing party. But when they are cheated in this way they don't mind so much, because their sense gratification, either way, is there. So only people who are serious about understanding the truth will accept these things.
Prabhupāda: We therefore submit our statement as it is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. You cannot say that we are cheating, because we are presenting something authorized, which is accepted. That's all. So we are not cheater. You may accept or not accept; that is your business. But we are presenting something standard. That's all.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is, though, that everyone has to work because they have to feed themselves and they have to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are working. We are not sitting idle. Now, for our food, if we just get some food by plowing some land for the animal, cows, and for me, and the cow is giving me milk, the tree are giving me fruit, why shall I work so hard? The business of dogs and hogs, whole day and night simply working for getting food and sense gratification? That is not civilization. Live peacefully, get your nice food, and save time to advance in spiritual life. This is civilization. And simply for little comfort for a few years I have wasted my time in so many humbug comforts. Actually that is... What is this comfort of the skyscraper building? I think it is a mechanical prison.
Prabhupāda: This is right answer, that you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. You must serve the stomach. Otherwise your position is very precarious. That is the answer. If the finger thinks that "I shall remain independent and be happy," that is not possible. The stomach must be supplied food, and then all the parts of the body, they'll be happy. That is the point. So you cannot non-cooperate with the stomach. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the central enjoyer. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the center. Just like ordinarily this African state, if you do not satisfy the state or the president, then you cannot remain happy. Independently you cannot be happy. We require in every step sta... We have come to this park because state is cooperating. In the morning we shall come, and they have prepared it nicely. We are not going to the jungle. So if we actually want happiness we must cooperate with the state. This is crude example. Similarly, if our ultimate aim is to become happy, then we must cooperate with Kṛṣṇa. This is obligatory. You cannot escape it. Then you'll be unhappy. This is the... Stomach. Pranopaharac ca yathendriyanam. Therefore the natural process is you pick up... A child even. He picks up some something, but he does not put anywhere—immediately in the mouth. Why he does not bring it in the ear? Why? The child immediately takes it. He does not know what is what. But the nature is that as soon as he captures something, even he does not know... Because his position is eating, he knows this much, sense gratification. Other senses are not yet developed. So the child, he knows taste with tongue and eats. That he knows.
Prabhupāda: Mind is disturbed.
Devotee (3): Then the mind will take over.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If the mind is not controlled by intelligence, then it will disturb. Then the senses will be disturbed, agitated. Then you are bound up by karma. Unrestricted sense gratification means karma-bandhana, bound up by the laws of karma. And bound up by the laws of karma means repetition of birth and death in different species. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantor dehopapatti (SB 3.31.1). Different bodies means resultant action of karma. So if you want to save yourself from this resultant action of karma, then the first thing is to control the mind. That is yoga system, to control the mind. But one who has got intelligence, he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the mind is automatically controlled. Yogīnām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatāntarātmanā (BG 6.47).
Prabhupāda: Therefore we are constructing temples. At least you will think, "We are constructing Kṛṣṇa's temple." Because you are habituated to work, work for Kṛṣṇa. Go to sell books. Print books. Type for Kṛṣṇa. This is also the same thing. Because you are accustomed to all these things, so nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandha. When it is connected with Kṛṣṇa it is as good as chanting. Therefore we are so much eager. Otherwise there is no need of temple; we can chant anywhere. But that stage is not so easy, like Haridāsa Ṭhākura we can sit down and chant anywhere. That is not possible. Then you'll sleep. Therefore these things are required. Everyone, we are working for this temple. Every one of us, we know that "This temple not for my sense gratification: This is for Kṛṣṇa." So that is important. The police commissioner is thinking, "It is nuisance." Huh? Police commissioner is thinking it is nuisance. But we are not thinking it is nuisance. We are not so fool. The politicians, the police commissioner, they'll think of, "He is my enemy; he is my friend." That is their occupation. They'll never think of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: If the modern politicians of the world follow the teaching of even Mahābhārata and śanti-parva, there will be śanti all over. What is your opinion, sir? That is sufficient if they don't go ahead further.
Prabhupāda: Śānti means to become devotee. Otherwise there is no question of. Jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. That is wanted. If one does not know Kṛṣṇa, where is śanti? Kuto śanty ayuktasya. Even Dhruva Mahārāja, he was... He became too much restless, being insulted by stepmother. He went to the forest, but there was no śanti. He was always restless. Nārada Muni came, advised him that "You are a child. Why you are so much agitated by so-called insult, family talks?" And "No, I don't want your advice." He refused. Then Nārada Muni gave him initiation, that "This boy is very strong." But actually, when he realized God, then he became svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yace: (CC Madhya 22.42) "My dear Lord, now I am fully satisfied. I have no desire." This is śanti. Even mokṣa-vaṁcha is not śanti because there is demand: "I want mokṣa." The karmīs, they want sense gratification; the jñānīs, they want liberation; the yogis, they want mystic power, aṣṭa-siddhi. Only the devotee, he doesn't want. He wants only to serve Kṛṣṇa. (plane flying over) It is going so low.
Dr. Patel: ...have something else in Gujarati. Indriya nila... (Gujarati) "The work that you do for satisfaction of the indriyas, (Gujarati)..." That is the bhakti, when you do same action for (Gujarati) God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between kāma and prema. Kāma means worldly attachment, and prema means attachment for God. That's all. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, atmendriya-tṛpti-vañcha tara nāma kāma: "When one desires his own sense gratification, that is called kāma." And kṛṣṇendriya-tṛpti-vañcha dhare prema nāma.
Dr. Patel: That is prema.
Prabhupāda: That is prema. "When one wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa's senses, that is prema."
Dr. Patel: That is called lust and love.
Prabhupāda: This is the difference between lust and love. Just like gopīs. It looks like kāma but it is prema.
Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that gopīs really, they are kāma-toṣa, and when they touched the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa their whole thing was turned into the sacred prema.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Evidence is there. Still, you are so rascal. Evidence is you were a child. That is the evidence. Where is that body? A very simple evidence, but these rascals are so dull, they cannot understand.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They accept what is good for their sense gratification, and what is not good, they won't accept.
Prabhupāda: And where is sense gratification? (break)
Harikeśa: Everything is unmanifest in the beginning, manifest in the middle, and unmanifest at the end. So why should I care for anything in this lifetime?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: If it's all unmanifest in the beginning, it's only manifest in the middle, and it's unmanifest again at the end, why should I care about anything this life?
Prabhupāda: Then why you are making so much arrangement for sense gratification?
Harikeśa: Well, I can enjoy while I've got it.
Prabhupāda: But why... If it is not manifested, what is the enjoyment?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Harikeśa?
Prabhupāda: You know Bengali?
Devotee (4): No, Subhaga has spoken to me, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Dr. Patel: Why mūḍha, sir. Mudhatamaḥ!
Prabhupāda: Yes, vimūḍha. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says not only mūḍha but vimūḍha; viśeṣa-mūḍha especifical. Prahlādah Mahārāja says the same thing: tato vimūkha-cetasā. Vimūkha cetasā means one who does not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. Tato vimukha-cetasa soce, and simply thinking of desires. Who are this? Those who are nondevotees, one who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Tato vimukha-cetasa. So why you are searching? Māy-sukhāya: simply for so-called sense gratification for a few days, bhāram udvahato vimūḍhān, making big, big plans. I am thinking of these rascals. What for they are making big, big plans? They will stay here for a few days, and forgetting Kṛṣṇa consciousness they are busy in making plans. This is Prahlāda Mahārāja. And Kṛṣṇa says they are mūḍha, vimūḍha. As soon as you find one, not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's immediately mūḍha, vimūḍha. Na mā duṣkṛtino mūḍh prapdyante narādhamāḥ.
Dr. Patel: That knowledge is, I mean, perished by māyā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyā will help you. If you want to forget Kṛṣṇa, Māyā will help you, how you can more and more forget.
Dr. Patel: Now these human beings they get educated from animals.
Prabhupāda: No, no. This is not education. This jara avidya, material education, is no education. It doesn't require any education. This education for eating, sleeping, education, that is not education, that is cats and dogs they also know how to do it without education. Real education is brahma-vidyā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā—this is education. So that is now given up throughout the whole world. Nobody is interested in Brahman; they are simply interested in sense gratification.
Dr. Patel: Because I think, sir, the method of education the world over is absolutely different...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not education. The education for eating, sleeping, that is not education.
Dr. Patel: The way we were educating, our forefathers are educating their children, by this method of sending them to a guru in an āśrama...
Prabhupāda: That is real education.
Dr. Patel: And then they are prepared right from the brahmacārī āśrama for the highest goal, till they become a sannyāsī. Here he, he's neither this nor there.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no education. Real education is not there. Just like Cānakya Paṇḍita, he was not a spiritual man, but he was a prime minister. Still, he gave the standard of becoming educated.
| Page Title: | Sense gratification (Conversations 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 20 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=133, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 133 |