Prison (Conversations)

Expressions researched:
"prison" |"prisoned" |"prisons"

Notes from the compiler: VedaBase query: prison or prisoned or prisons not "prison house" not "prisonhouse"

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Radio Interview -- March 12, 1968, San Francisco:

Gargamuni: Why is this human form of life, why is this human life in such a diseased condition with war, pestilence, and famine?

Prabhupāda: These are miserable conditions inflicted by material nature just to remind the conditioned soul that this conditioned life in the material nature is not for you. There is another place where you can live very peacefully. Just like in the prison life there is always infliction of miseries. If in the prison life one is comfortably situated, then he'll never go out, he'll try to live there. So these material inflictions of miseries reminds us that this place is not suitable for us. It is not our place. Our place is back to Godhead, back to home. Therefore these are the reminders that you must leave this place.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- August 14, 1971, London:

Guest (2) Gentlemen: Have you been harassed in London at all?

Prabhupāda: I don't think, but they are Londoners. They know better than me.

Devotee: Yes, we have been harassed many times. We have been arrested and left from the prison about twelve o'clock, one o'clock in the night, and then we were far from that place to here.

Devotee: When was that?

Revatīnandana: The last time was a week ago. (laughs)

Guest (2): Would you say that the Americans are generally less tolerant than Londoners to you or more tolerant?

Revatīnandana: America or here?

Guest (2): Yes. Which is the worse and which is the better?

Prabhupāda: America is more tolerant, I think.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are (indistinct), it is better to surrender and be peaceful. (break) ...here, there, here, there, here. Kṛṣṇa says, "No. That surrender will not help you. Just surrender to Me, you will be happy." So intelligent person will feel that "If I have to surrender, why not to Kṛṣṇa? Why surrender to some foolish man? Let me surrender to Kṛṣṇa. If my business is to surrender, I cannot do without surrender." That is intelligence. That Kṛṣṇa says,

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

(BG 7.19)

Therefore who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, he is mahātmā. It is very rare mahātmā, su-durlabhaḥ. So anyone who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they are mahātmā. They are not ordinary men. So mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ.

Reporter: Sir... (break)

Prabhupāda: We have to surrender, that's a fact. But we refuse to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is our disease. He is not free, just like in a state, just like in Mahatma Gandhi's time, so many started civil disobedience, but the government brought them all into prison, and they obliged them to obey. Similarly, our position is that... (end)

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Interview with the New York Times -- September 2, 1972, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: We are not preaching our own words; we are preaching God's words. Now it is up to you to make your choice. God says to give up all engagements and just surrender unto Him. God says:

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam

ātmānaṁ mat-parāyaṇaḥ

(BG 18.65)

"Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me." I am a member of the political party and am always thinking of Mr. Such and such, my leader. I become a staunch follower of that leader, worship him and offer obeisances to him. So many people are sacrificing their lives simply by following a political leader, and for party superiority they are doing so many things, always thinking of party's activities, always offering obeisances and worshiping the party's principles. If all these things are transferred to God, they become good. God says, "Think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer obeisances unto Me." If we transfer these activities to God, we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is what we are teaching. We advise that what you are doing for some nonsense, do it for God. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not difficult. But if I want to love a dog and become a dog in my next life, instead of loving God and becoming like God in the next life, that is my choice. The prison and university are open to everyone, and by making our choice, we can make our future destiny. These boys and girls are worshiping God, and people criticize them, but when a man worships a dog, he is not criticized. In this way society has progressed. When one worships God, he is criticized, and when he worships dog, he is considered a gentleman. So it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Mr. Wadell: Oh yes, I'm not claiming... I haven't any claim to goodness. You must understand that.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, any living entity, any living entity who is originally part and parcel of God, God is all-good, therefore the part and parcel of God is also all-good. But as soon as comes to the material world, he (break) As exactly like the same, that as soon as one is put into the prison wall, within, he is a criminal. Now he has to undergo the criminal laws. Similarly, because we have come to this material world, we have to undergo the material tribulations. We cannot avoid.

Mr. Wadell: Well this is a very long... We are now on a topic on which I should have to require or ask, if I put it more politely, much more time than I have. Now, I am a person with responsibility to my boys. I must go now and say our prayers in the Christian way, which...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice.

Mr. Wadell: ...Well, we profess up there, which not all believe, but some do, and they must be given their chance. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, that is nice.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Karandhara: Well, then they'll say, "Well, if you see somebody suffering, then why do anything about it, if it just what they..."

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are doing everything to stop his suffering.

Karandhara: They will say, "Why? If that's what they deserve, why try to stop it?"

Prabhupāda: No, because he has come here to suffer. You cannot expect in the prison life a very comfortable life. You must suffer. But if somebody goes there, that "Don't commit stealing anymore. Come out and don't come here again," so that is required.

Rūpānuga: Just because a man goes in the prisonhouse doesn't mean his thieving is cured. He will come out a thief unless he is actually rectified.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Otherwise again he will commit the same thing and again he will come. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Therefore he requires instruction, good instruction. Sometimes government invites. We were invited that Ahmedabad jail. You remember?

Śrutakīrti: Yes.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Demons are known as sura-dviṣām, sura-dviṣām, those who are envious of the demigods, sura-dvisa. Sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). This word is used in the Bhāgavata: "just to cheat the demons," sammohāya sura-dviṣām. (break) That is the instruction of Nārada. You see? Then?

Girirāja: "Within the prison, shackled in iron chains, Vasudeva and Devakī gave birth to a male child year after year. Kaṁsa, thinking each of the babies to be the incarnation of Viṣṇu, killed them one after another."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He killed his brother. He was merciful upon the father only, kept him in the prison. Otherwise he killed the whole family—brother, brother's son and everyone. (break) ...present kings, such incidences are very many in the history, killing everyone. There is another story that Pana, Pana?

Yaśomatīnandana: Panavada.(?)

Prabhupāda: Yes. The child was to be killed and the...

Yaśomatīnandana: Sarvan sevya.(?)

Prabhupāda: Yes, Hare Kṛṣṇa. The maidservant, she changed her own son and kept the real royal family, defended him. Her child was killed.

Room Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: There are two things. We recommend two things. For the mass of people, this prayer, kīrtana, a prayer. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma. So this is prayer. Hare means appealing to the energy of God, and Kṛṣṇa is God. "O the energy of God, O God, please engage me in your service." This is the sum and substance of the Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare: "O the energy of God, 'Kṛṣṇa,' O the Lord, please engage me in Your service." Because we are now engaged in the service of Satan, māyā. I think... Māyā. So therefore we are suffering. Service we have to render. Because we are meant for rendering service. But when you forget God, then you render service to māyā. Therefore it is the prayer to God that "Please pick me from this service and engage me to Your service." That's all. Service is my occupation. I cannot become master. That is not possible. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they sometimes say that "We are now in māyā. As soon as we are out in māyā, then we become master." We do not agree to this philosophy. We remain servant even after liberation. We are servant here and we are servant always. Just like a citizen and government. The government is always master. If you do not accept the laws of government, then you are put into prison. There also you are subjected to the laws of God, or the government. Similarly, either in māyā or liberated, we are always servant, eternal servant. But when we are servant in liberation, giving service to God, that is our real life or real happiness. But when we give service to the māyā, that is our miserable condition. So in Moscow I have been. I had a long talk with Professor Kotofsky, the Indologist.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: And his question was that those in the mode of passion and ignorance, do they have any choice?

Prabhupāda: Everyone has choice. Everyone has choice. Choice, but under the control. Exactly like that. By your choice, you go to the prison house. By your choice, you go to the university. There is supreme control, government. But it is your choice, whether you want to live in the prison or in the university. that is your choice. Government does not say that "Oh, this man will come to the university, and this man will go to the prison house." No. You make your choice, you work according to that, and government sends you either to the prison or to the university. You cannot say... One man is condemned to be killed for murdering, another man is rewarded some prize, you cannot say government is partial. You have made your choice, and government is giving you the result. (pause) Once you make your choice to steal, then you are under prison house. Immediately.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Choice to...?

Prabhupāda: To steal.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Steal.

Prabhupāda: Then immediately you are under prison. It will take some time only. Just like if you infect some disease, It will take some time to manifest, but it will be manifested. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ. So in the, in the... Ordinarily, you can steal and hide yourself, but in the eyes of God, you cannot steal and hide yourself. That is not possible. You have stolen; you must suffer. (end)

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas:

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying stealing is relative. Some people steal because they watch television, some people steal because they're hungry or they need things...

Prabhupāda: Well, in the eyes of the law, when you go to the court, if somebody has stolen some diamond and if somebody has stolen some insignificant thing, in the court the six month prison is there. The man who has stolen an insignificant thing, the judge does not make any concession for him. "You have stolen, you must go to the jail." And the man who has stolen the diamond, he also takes the same term. So stealing is stealing. Either you steal diamond or a little fruit, it doesn't matter. The punishment is the same for the diamond-stealer and anything-insignificant-stealer. That is the law.

Morning Walk -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Jayadharma: Even when a man commits first-degree murder he only gets ten years' jail. There are cases of people committing cold-blooded murder and only getting ten years' jail. And then after that, getting out again and doing the same thing.

Paramahaṁsa: They think that "This poor man was psychologically disturbed and killed someone." So they give him ten years in jail, then they say, "Now he is rehabilitated, he has been very nice, and in the prison he was acting very nicely, so we want him to be happy. So we'll let him out on parole as long as he's good." Then they let him out.

Amogha: That's why we take your books to the prisons. Sometimes we have a contest to see who can distribute the most books in three days. When they were deciding who would go with Madhudviṣa Swami to India, they had a contest to see who could distribute the most books and get the most laxmī at the same time. So they would collect much laxmī, then they would go out and give away books to the prisons and jails and hospitals. Cases of books. They put them in the libraries too. They agreed; otherwise they didn't get. They would ask them if they would use it, and they said yes. So in three days they distributed very, very many books.

Prabhupāda: Free?

Amogha: Yes. First they collected the money elsewhere, then they gave it away to the hospitals and prisons. One boy he collected in one day, he won the contest, he collected seven hundred and fifty dollars in one day. Australian dollars. That's almost one thousand U.S. dollars. I don't remember how many books, very, very many books he gave away also. Big books, hardbound books, Kṛṣṇa books, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: So, you are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is very good. These rascals are in ignorance and you are trying to enlighten them. Very good service. (break) After reading a book does anybody come and ask questions? Do they receive regularly letters and enquiries?

Morning Walk -- May 15, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: Nice nurse.

Prabhupāda: So you become patient and go to the hospital.

Śrutakīrti: Just like in our prisons, sometimes the prisoners, they don't want to leave because they don't have to work and they're getting food. They have a bed...

Paramahaṁsa: We can teach people how to live with their problems and at the same time learn how to minimize them through technology.

Prabhupāda: No, because you have got so many facilities to teach people that "You become patient, you become criminal, and you live comfortably." That is very nice, "You become criminal, go to the jail and live very comfortably." "You become diseased, go to the hospital and live comfortably." That is very easy.

Paramahaṁsa: But see, they can't cause any trouble in the jail. That is the advantage. Therefore everyone is comfortable because they see that the murderers are locked up and they can't do any harm. Therefore everyone is feeling safe. And in a hospital people, similarly, they have some disease. They can't... Like in India, the beggars on the street, they should all be in hospitals, whereas in the foreign countries all those type of people are all in hospitals, taken care of.

Prabhupāda: Then why hippies are lying on the street?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, that is voluntary.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Devotee: Blasphemy.

Jayatīrtha: Recently we got a conviction against him. He got six months in prison. In Los Angeles we got to convict him for this kind of activity. So he is being stopped.

Guest (Indian man): Also he can't come to Canada any more, can't cross the border.

Jayatīrtha: Oh, he's been barred.

Guest: He is barred from coming to Canada.

Brahmānanda: He was put into the Denver county jail also when we were in Denver. He's out on bail now.

Mrs. Wax: Not only kidnapping devotees, Kṛṣṇa devotees, but all religious movements. He can't stand them.

Prabhupāda: And the parents are taking help from him.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is the difficulty.

Mrs. Wax: I've noticed that there are different dates given to when the Vedas began, the beginnings of the Vedas. Some historians and authorities say one thing and I've seen many different figures. What is the accurate time they were spoken.

Prabhupāda: If you can find out what is the accurate time of this cosmic creation, then you will find the date of Vedas. Can you find out when it was created? Have you got any statistics?

Mrs. Wax: No, none. I was hoping you did. (laughs)

Mr. Wax: How old is the Hare Kṛṣṇa chant.

Prabhupāda: As old as this creation.

Morning Walk -- July 14, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: Then that you have to admit that you are conditioned by some authority. When you are put into jail, you cannot act independently. You have to act according to the jail superintendent's order.

Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, is our desire to be eternal, blissful and full of knowledge...

Prabhupāda: Now let me finish. You will never be able to understand if you jump over like that. Let one thing be understood.

Devotee (4): So he admits he's conditioned, but still, there's no free will. He says, "Yeah, so I'm in the prison. I'm imprisoned. I'm conditioned."

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Free will... Just like a man commits theft by his free will. But when he is put into jail, then no more free will. He has to act according to the jail superintendent. But his beginning of jail life is free will. Nobody asked him that "You go to jail." But why he has come? He knows also that "When I am put into jail, I will lose all my freedom." He knows that. Still, he comes. Why does he come? He knows that. That is called ajñāna. Mūḍha. That is called mūḍha. He knows; still, he does.

Morning Walk -- September 29, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Indian man (5): Continues delusion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has imposed death, that "You may make your plan as free man, but you'll not be allowed to stay. I'll kick you out." These poor men, they did not think of it, that "I am making so nice plan, but at any moment I'll be kicked out. So where is my freedom?" Dull brain does not think of it. A prisoner, if he thinks that he is free to act, is it not foolishness? A prisoner, in prison, and if he thinks that he is free to act, is it not foolishness? So that they do not think. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has grouped them: mūḍha, these rascals, mūḍha. They conduct freedom movement. Just like in our country also, before this British Empire or this Mohammedan Empire there was no knowledge about this freedom. Indian people never thought of freedom. They know that "We are not free. Where is the question of freedom?" These things have come from the foreign countries, freedom movement. What is freedom? Where are you free? You are completely under the laws of nature. Where is your freedom? So they were thinking of greater freedom, to get out of the clutches of the laws of nature. That is real freedom. What is this freedom? From frying pan to the fire? (chuckles) Now we have freedom means from frying pan to the fire. Formerly there was one viceroy. Now in each state three dozen viceroys, and you have to maintain that. So many legislators, so many secretaries, so many ministers. All, they are sucking our poor blood. That's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you approach them for some grievances, "All right, give me application," and, after six months, "No." So we are maintaining for this purpose? Yes. "I say no." That's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...ing of freedom, but we have no freedom even to stay in this body.

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Brahmānanda: They say from those three colors they can make actually thousands of different colors.

Prabhupāda: Therefore three modes of material nature by mixture-8,400,000's of species of life, by different mixture. And when you come to the original color, then the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya... And then you transcend the color; you come to the spiritual life. (break)

Bhārgava: ...prison. And then when he gets out of prison he has the memory of his punishment, and that acts as a deterrent to him committing the crime again. But if someone is sinful... (break)

Prabhupāda: It is tamo-guṇa. He knows everything; still, he is forced to act criminally. That is tamo-guṇa. Everyone knows that he will be punished. He has seen that criminal is punished. Still, he acts criminally. That is called ignorance. Heart is unclean. Therefore our first process is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), to cleanse the heart.

Morning Walk -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: He is more dangerous than Buddha. What is that big building?

Cyavana: They are building now a prison on the point there, a new prison. I tried to walk there one morning, and they stopped me because they are afraid someone may go in there and make some tunnel or some place where they can escape before they finish it.

Brahmānanda: It looks like a hotel.

Cyavana: Yes. It will be very luxurious.

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break)

Devotee 2: ...Vyāsadeva and Nara-Nārāyaṇa, they are still in the Himalayas meditating, why don't they come and join our parties and help this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by their...?

Prabhupāda: They are giving you chance to preach. They have given their books. Is it not sufficient?

Devotee 2: Yes, it's great help. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...bones or what?

Cyavana: Yes. It's coral. It's from coral.

Prabhupāda: An animal.

Room Conversation -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: But you... You... Because you are rascal number one, you don't worry, but that is the psychology. This is the example.

Harikeśa: But I want to enjoy right now.

Prabhupāda: Suppose that you enjoy this woman for few minutes. Then you will be shot down. Then will you be able to enjoy?

Brahmānanda: Actually they do that. When some man is to be executed in the prison they give him one woman the night before as a special consolation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They finish him off completely. They ruin him. (laughing)

Cyavana: But death is very far away from me. I am only thirty years old. I don't have to worry about death.

Prabhupāda: What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? What is the guarantee that you will live thirty-one years? There is no guarantee.

Room Conversation -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: This argument we have talked many times. Everyone knows that out of prisonhouse freedom is there. Why he goes to the prisonhouse? Everyone knows it. Why does he go to the prisonhouse?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not by choice. He is placed there.

Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa is the supreme controller. If He wanted to check us from going there, He could check us from going into the prison, from offending.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa has given you independence. So you are.... By mentality, you have to suffer. Suppose if a child wants to do something, play, if you check it, check it, then he will go mad. Just like mother Yasoda was showing stick to Kṛṣṇa, and when Kṛṣṇa became so much afraid, he (she) became immediately anxious: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has too much anxiety. He may fall sick." So immediately throw away. So this is father-mother's affection.

Cyavana: So actually it is Kṛṣṇa's mercy that He allows us to come here, free ourselves from...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has given you little freedom. He doesn't want to take your freedom.

Morning Walk -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The argument is, though, that everyone has to work because they have to feed themselves and they have to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are working. We are not sitting idle. Now, for our food, if we just get some food by plowing some land for the animal, cows, and for me, and the cow is giving me milk, the tree are giving me fruit, why shall I work so hard? The business of dogs and hogs, whole day and night simply working for getting food and sense gratification? That is not civilization. Live peacefully, get your nice food, and save time to advance in spiritual life. This is civilization. And simply for little comfort for a few years I have wasted my time in so many humbug comforts. Actually that is... What is this comfort of the skyscraper building? I think it is a mechanical prison.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Matchbox also.

Prabhupāda: Matchbox.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You said last night that without electricity it would be hell.

Prabhupāda: It is hell. And we are creating this hell.

Morning Walk -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That is the incentive, then.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): Some of them steal. Instead of working, they steal their food.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Steal... When he is arrested, then he has to work in the prison. That's all.

Harikeśa: Chopping rocks.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise whipping. In Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended that instead of keeping yourself lazy without working, better to steal. Better to steal.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How is that?

Prabhupāda: Huh? That is there. Stealing is bad work, bad work. It is also working, but bad work. So Kṛṣṇa recommends that instead of keeping yourself lazy, better do bad work.

Harikeśa: "Action is better than inaction."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Yes.

Morning Walk -- November 26, 1975, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: You know Bengali?

Devotee (4): No, Subhaga has spoken to me, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Harikeśa: Well, it's better to enjoy than to suffer.

Prabhupāda: And where is enjoyment? The thief also thinks like that: "Let me enjoy by stealing." Then, when he goes to the prison, then his enjoyment finished. If somebody gives you so many rasagullā, that "You take this rasagullā, and after finishing, I shall beat you with shoes," then will you take? (laughter) This is enjoyment. No sane man will like to enjoy like that. "Take this rasagullā, and after this, I will beat you with shoes, as many rasagullā you have taken." Will you take it?

Harikeśa: Yes, but I eat rasagullās every day and nobody beats me with shoes.

Prabhupāda: Why the other day you told me, "I am now not... I cannot see. My brain is..."? Is it not beating with shoes? (laughter) Eh? Don't you agree?

Indian man (5): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Huh? Everyone, but they are so rascal.

Morning Walk -- December 7, 1975, Vrndavana:

Alanath: There's some countries in Europe where they have absolute laws against selling books in the street. In these countries do we have to make something secret to sell your books?

Prabhupāda: Secret? Why?

Alanath: Because otherwise they would immediately put you in prison.

Prabhupāda: Where? Here in India?

Alanath: No. In Europe, like in Switzerland. But when we go there for selling books people take them like anything, but you have to hide before the police very carefully.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why don't you take permission from the court?

Alanath: No. It's not possible.

Akṣayānanda: Have you applied?

Alanath: They have very strict laws. It's also been applied for.

Prabhupāda: No, you have to prove: "This is very important book of knowledge, so allow us a special."

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 3, 1976, Nellore:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot, he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said, "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hm? Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you're always dependent.

Prabhupāda: You'll be put into further sufferings as soon as you violate the rules and regulation of the jail. You'll be put to a further term of suffering. Just like they are independently trying to avoid pregnancy, and the same man who has killed his own child, or same mother, he is being killed within the womb. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). Nature will not tolerate this. In India still these things are not happening because they are not so advanced to use all these contraceptive method. But in Europe, America, it has become a common affair to kill the child within the womb.

Conversation with News Reporters -- March 25, 1976, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Māyā is a diseased condition.

Reporter (2): Māyā is a diseased condition or many other ailments under who the human beings are affected.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter (2): Are these bad conditions or ailments not part and parcel of God?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you are suffering. You should admit. Just like a prison department is part and parcel of the government. But who is in the prison, he is suffering.

Reporter (2): That's a very good answer. That's a wonderful answer.

Reporter (3): Your Divine Grace, would your message be exactly the same for, say, a starving man in India and a Westerner who's got everything that a person needs?

Prabhupāda: We say that not only in India, everyone, you'll starve, because you are rebellious to God consciousness. You must starve. That is the punishment. Just like anyone who is a criminal, he must be punished. That is the law of nature.

Reporter (3): So by that, I suppose one would presume that people in India have been most rebellious to God.

Prabhupāda: Why India? Everywhere. Why you speak India?

Reporter (3): Because...

Prabhupāda: When you speak of God, don't take India, or America or Europe. Everywhere.

Conversation with News Reporters -- March 25, 1976, Delhi:

Reporter (1): No, but could there be any clear-cut criterion, for example, to say that I have committed sin or I have not committed sin? What is sin?

Prabhupāda: Clear-cut criterion is that we living entity, being part and parcel, we are as good as God. But when we are under the control of the material nature, that is our diseased condition. Same example. Just like you, as a good citizen, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. You are Indian; you have got all the rights. But if you become criminal, you put into the prison. So we are in the.... Conditioned state means no freedom. It is not clear?

Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted you to tell me some yardstick from which one could...

Prabhupāda: But because you are suffering, that is the sign of impurity.

Reporter (1): Beg your pardon?

Prabhupāda: Because you are suffering.... Do you admit that you are suffering? Do you know this?

Reporter (1): Suffering means that there is some impurity.

Prabhupāda: No, are you not suffering?

Reporter (1): Yes, everybody is.

Prabhupāda: That is diseased condition. Just like diseased.... When you have got fever—you are suffering—that is diseased condition. So long you are suffering, you must be aware of the fact that you are in diseased condition. Because you are part and parcel, there is no question of suffering.

Room Conversation -- May 7, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Because Russia was afraid of another revolution. People were preparing. So much pressure, intolerance, after all they are Europeans, so there was a chance of revolution.

Hari-śauri: Especially after Stalin. So many people were killed and sent to prison camps. That was the way that they enforced...

Prabhupāda: Stalin is calculated to be greatest criminal in the world. He has killed so many men. All rogues. We were taken through the neighborhood of all aristocratic men who were killed in the revolution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While reading about China, one of the books I was reading also described Cambodia, Vietnam and Korea. And the recent histories of these countries are so horrible, that the... Mostly in that part of the world now they have become totally anti-American. They are very, very anti-American because of what the Ameri... The Americans have simply gone there and...

Guru-kṛpā: Not Korea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh?

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: North Koreans don't love Americans.

Morning Walk -- May 29, 1976, Honolulu:

Hari-śauri: In the West they experience that. That many of the men that go out of prison, they immediately commit some crime so that they can go straight back in...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They think it is very nice. Yes. This is called māyā. He's into suffering, but he thinks this is very nice. It is called prakri badni dasuni (indistinct). (Sanskrit) It is covered. Stool, worm. You take the stool worm from the stool and kick it aside, again it will go.... (laughing) "This is enjoyment. Why you are taking from me?" (laughing)

Hari-śauri: Like the cockroaches. If you make everything clean, they go away.

Devotee (3): In Washington all of the drunks, they go in there and stay in the prison, and it was costing the government a great amount of money. So they passed the law that they were not going to put the drunks in jail any more because it was costing them such a big expense. They all want to go to jail.

Hari-śauri: What about when someone goes to the hellish regions though? He actually suffers there?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Of course. But he thinks that "I am enjoying."

Hari-śauri: Oh. 'Cause after reading the descriptions in the Bhāgavatam, it seems it's pretty horrific.

Prabhupāda: Well, when one is accustomed, then he thinks it is enjoyment.

Garden Conversation -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Arnold Weiss: Yes, but why are we in the prison house?

Prabhupāda: This is the cause: because you are criminal, you are put into the prison house, but the relationship continues.

Arnold Weiss: What have we done to make ourselves criminals?

Prabhupāda: What you have done, you are put into prison?

Arnold Weiss: No, but what have we done to make ourselves criminals? What criminal acts have we performed?

Prabhupāda: That you might have forgotten. Because your nature is to forget, you cannot immediately remember what you are doing exactly this time yesterday. That is your... You have forgotten, but suppose you, without any knowledge, you do something criminal. So you must be punished. You may not know. You cannot say in the court that "I did not know by committing this act I'll be punished." So you know or not know. You have done it; you must be punished. You may not know what you have done, but that does not mean you can avoid punishment.

Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla -- July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's called durācara, misbehavior. So atonement, according to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real intelligence. That intelligence, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one.... He knows that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's athāto brahma jijñāsā. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self-interest, become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Devotee: It is explained that the intelligence is the next door neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: So what is his question?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very close to the soul.

Guest: (indistinct) the relationship between the intelligence, working in the soul.

Prabhupāda: Soul is above intelligence. This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul.

Interview with Religious Editor Of the Associated Press -- July 16, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Why we are bringing Hindu and Muslim view?

Interviewer: Well, O.K., I take that back then. I take that back. Anyway, what you're saying is that this life is a jail and that really the goal is another life.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Interviewer: Right? I mean that this life is an evil prison.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, now you have understood. This is not a desirable life, to live in the jail, conditioned.

Interviewer: Well in other words, in a sense that is to reject or at least to repudiate this life, this world.

Prabhupāda: Not repudiate, to understand.

Interviewer: That it is not a good life.

Prabhupāda: It is not a good life, and the whole material world is false identification with myself.

Interviewer: Well is it important to try to improve this life so that it won't be a prison?

Prabhupāda: Yes, improve, improve, to understand that I am not a person of the jail. I am a person of freedom. Long living in the jail one who identifies that "Without jail I cannot live."

Interview with Religious Editor Of the Associated Press -- July 16, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Just like a man has gone to jail, he's giving education to the prisoners, "My dear brother prisoners, this life is not good, you become honest, don't come to the jail." So other prisoners, they are working hard, they are hammering on the bricks, they think that "This man is not hammering on the bricks, he's talking only."

Interviewer: I didn't gather that.

Bali-mardana: In the prison the people are, their work is, say, to hammer on bricks. So when, if someone comes into the jail and tells the prisoners, "You shouldn't be doing this, actually you should become honest and go out of the jail and be free." Now if the persons in the jail... Because... They will then become envious that "this person, instead of working hard like us, he's simply talking." They cannot understand the benefit that he's giving them and they become envious, that "Because he's not working like us he is nonsense." So do you understand the analogy? It's an analogy. Just like we are coming in the world and telling people to get out of this world, to understand the spiritual world, spiritual side of life. But because we're not working like them, sometimes they misunderstand what is our purpose.

Interviewer: In other words you think people should get away from what they're doing in the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, that is real life.

Conversation After Interview with Religious Editor, Associated Press -- July 16, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Because they are accustomed to the business of hammering the bricks from time immemorial, they think "This is the business. How is that this man is not engaged in this business?"

Hari-śauri: Even after he'd understood the analogy that the man was in the prison and hammering bricks, he was still thinking that "Well, shouldn't he still be hammering bricks?" He was asking that. He was still thinking like that. It's amazing.

Rādhāvallabha: He couldn't understand any of the analogies.

Prabhupāda: That is the karmīs. Even the Orissa politicians, they accused Caitanya Mahāprabhu, because the Orissa politician, it is a fact the Mahārāja Pratāparudra, the King of Orissa during the time of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he was politically very strong. At that time the Muhammadans were conquering different parts of India, but they could not enter Orissa or the southern India. They were very strong. So this Mahārāja Pratāparudra politically was very strong. So the modern politicians of Orissa, they accuse Caitanya Mahāprabhu that, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to Orissa and Mahārāja Pratāparudra became influenced by Him, Orissa fell down. They accuse sometimes that Orissa's political position became weakened on account of Caitanya Mahāprabhu's influence on Mahārāja Pratāparudra. They say. The modern politicians of Orissa, they also do not like Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement.

Radio Interview -- July 27, 1976, London:

Hari-śauri: Like that man from the Associated Press. You forced him to stay on those two analogies until he understood. For ten minutes you explained that, the car and the driver, until it finally got through to him. Then when he finally had some realization of it, then you again gave him another analogy about breaking the bricks in the prison. And again you forced him to stay on the same subject matter. And he..., you do it in such a way that they think that they're asking very good questions from their own intelligence. Actually, you've already captured them.

Harikeśa: It's like taming wild animals. The perfect animal trainer. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: He said that breaking the bricks is the business. I said the sooner you give up this, then you are happy. Karmīs, the karmīs want this, breaking the bricks. They think this is civilization. Brick, more brick, and bring more bricks and break it. That is civilization.

Hari-śauri: And then when we tell them that this is not your business, they ask us, "Why aren't you breaking bricks?"

Prabhupāda: You are punished. You are being punished in this way. Actually, I saw in New York, big, big building, they are breaking, again, another skyscraper. "No, I have business. Breaking the bricks," that's all. They think this is very good business. Once constructed, again break it. As child, children, they make a sand house and break it again. This is the occupation.

Meeting With Member of Parliament, Mr. Krishna Modi -- August 31, 1976, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have good propaganda.

Prabhupāda: And people are not happy. They are terrorized.

Krishna Modi: That is correct. That is correct. In Parliament we are telling that they are a first-class prisoner. First-class prison.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First-class prisoners. Not first-class, third-class. (laughter)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But I was told, because a lot of people in Russia who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa also. It's very... There's a lot of corruption. Even the taxi drivers are corrupt. They'll park their taxi a bit away then come and approach you when you are standing in a line and say, "Okay, I'll take you there," but he'll tell you three times the price because everyone's waiting in such a long line for a taxi.

Prabhupāda: Black market.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And one friend of ours told us what they do because all the cars belong to the state, a lot of taxis, the people...

Krishna Modi: The taxis are not independent.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they all belong to the state. But the driver, if he makes extra money, that goes in his pocket and they have tipping also.

Prabhupāda: And they are always anxious to get extra. Buses are not very good. Third-class buses.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: We have got our psychologists.

Rāmeśvara: These psychologists say that if there is a lack of sleep, then the mind becomes very susceptible to another person's ideas. You can get control of him by depriving him of sleep. Just like they say... There was a war once in the country of Korea between America and China, and the prisoners, the Americans, were captured and put into these prison camps, and the Chinese tried to convert them to Communism by lack of sleep and lack of food, torture. In this way, they say, this is widely accepted that if a person has too little sleep or too little food, then you can break his will and change his life by force.

Prabhupāda: So that is all right. Then you break. Now he's quite fit for your conversion. He's now weak. You convert him to your ideas. (laughter) We have made the ground.

Rāmeśvara: That's what they want! They want us...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you kidnap? You say.

Rāmeśvara: They want us to give the devotees to them, and then they will deprive them of food and sleep and deprogram him.

Jagadīśa: But we're already depriving him of food and sleep.

Prabhupāda: But they are open to everyone. Why do you kidnap? Why do you steal like a thief?

Rāmeśvara: For his own good.

Morning Walk -- January 24, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Protect the animal? This is not protecting. This is another slaughterhouse.

Hari-śauri: This is slow slaughter.

Prabhupāda: Slow slaughter. They have no independence. (laughs) This is not protection.

Hari-śauri: This is prison.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is prison.

Bhāgavata: There's cottages here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, where you can live right on the lake. Very beautiful place.

Prabhupāda: How many days? Three days?

Bhāgavata: Up to seven days, I think.

Prabhupāda: Seven days.

Bhāgavata: And this is very large birds, bird sanctuary.

Prabhupāda: Crane. (break) ...in the forest. In the park.

Room Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda (Member of Parliament) -- March 27, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Jail?

Mr. Rajda: Yes. In that emergency, you know, and about 150,000, patriotic people were in jails, J. K. Prakash, Morarji and all Hindu leaders and all of the workers. So I was kept at Central Prison for nineteen months. Then they released me, and after this election period, just I would order to fight the elections from Bombay South. And with her blessings I have won it with a very comfortable margin, 65,000. Just now we were at Shivaji Pack. And when Girirājajī told me that you were here, I told him definitely I would like to ask for darśana.

Prabhupāda: The material adjustment... Just like we felt little danger under the regime of Indira Gandhi. Now we have another feeling. This is material adjustment. Material adjustment may be temporary beneficial, but that is not permanent beneficial.

Mr. Rajda: Unless there is adhyātmika adjustment, there cannot be lasting benefit.

Prabhupāda: The difficulty is... That we do not know. Just like you take a fish from the water and put it on the land. It will never become happy. Again you throw him in the water, he will feel happy. So the living entity is different from prakṛti. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim. These material elements, earth, water, air, fire, ether, mind, intelligence, ego, these are gross and subtle material elements. And the living being, jīva-bhūta, is superior than the inferior material elements. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām. Parā-prakṛti, it is part and parcel of God. Unless we understand this fact, which is very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, this material adjustment will never make us happy.

Room Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda (Member of Parliament) -- March 27, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is not a sectarian. It is full of... Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). So it is practically proved, how they are taking Bhagavad-gītā. So it is science. It is actually life. So why not practice in India? It is not that everyone will be able, but there must be an exemplary sect. People may see that there is ideal. That we can do. India it is easier, because those who are born in India, constitutionally they have got that tendency. Simply we have to channelize. Then everything will be... So there is a good chance. Now the government has changed. They are after something very good, and the direction is there. If you take it seriously, there will be no difficulty.

Mr. Rajda: No, definitely we shall take it up seriously, very seriously. We have no chance in the sense we are ourselves in prison after I met you last. Immediately we were taken in. And this all hullabaloo came about, reactions and all this. It is only now that we get the breathing time.

Prabhupāda: So there is some Kṛṣṇa's purpose that you were elected.

Mr. Rajda: It is through His blessings.

Prabhupāda: Take advantage of His blessings. Do some service. Your full name?

Mr. Rajda: Ratan Singh Rajda.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Morning Talk -- April 25, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's a real good challenge. I mean, I feel it's a nice challenge.

Prabhupāda: Now the... We can see practically how the system of civilization is bad, that this Indira Gandhi, rākṣasī, she became exalted in the topmost rank, and she thought... A person who is equally good or more than her, he was imprisoned. Then how the system is bad, that a rogue comes to the topmost post and a good man is put into the prison? Is not the system defective? Imperfect? Some way or other, you can become very important, and the actually important man you can cut down.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Envious system.

Prabhupāda: Animal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Animals are envious also.

Prabhupāda: Envious is everywhere. So the whole civilization is so defective. Somehow or other, you come to the power, and you do whatever you like, and the people in general will have to depend on such leaders for their welfare. How they can be happy? If the whole system is defective, how they can be happy? The same man, in one day he's very important, in the next day he's the most degraded. And the most degraded man, previously he was praised by millions of people and next day he's condemned. That means who elevated her to the post, they're all rascals.

Room Conversation -- May 2, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...the mess. He has paid only one hundred rupees from his pocket, and he's everything, and he has squandered so much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who?

Prabhupāda: The Sanjay Gandhi.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That, I haven't read that yet. Is he going to be put in prison for...?

Prabhupāda: I think so.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about her?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about his mother?

Prabhupāda: Well, mother, personally what did she do, I do not know.

Room Conversation -- November 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Don't try for China.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had said that before a few times also. They are completely restricted in every respect. Whereas in other..., East European countries and in Russia, the professors may read various types of literature, in China they're not allowed to do that. And if they are ever caught doing that, they immediately are sentenced to prison and they lose everything. The difference in China as opposed to Russia is that in China every few years all the professors are made to be farmers. And also the workers in the factories and the farmers are the predominate controllers of the universities. They are not at all interested in culture or in higher education. Their whole purpose even for the universities is to train up loyal Chinese citizens. Everything is for that end. So no cultural interest would ever be tolerated on the part of the authorities there. And the people are so much controlled by these authorities that they would lose everything.

Prabhupāda: Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). (pause)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? You said before that you..., that it is said that you were poisoned?

Prabhupāda: No. These kind of symptoms are seen when a man is poisoned. He said like that, not that I am poisoned.