There, there are many instances. Just like gopīs. At dead of night, when Kṛṣṇa's flute was there, they left their husband, left their father, left their brothers, children, everything, and they went away. Now, according to our Vedic system, young girls, young women, leaving the protection of father, brother or superiors, and going in the forest for another boy—oḥ, it is very sinful. Socially, it is sinful. And Kṛṣṇa instructed them, "What you have done? You go back immediately." And they began to cry. That, this description is there. So now, from the social point of view, this is sin. This is sin when the gopīs went to Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, Prahlāda Mahārāja was standing without any protest and his father is being killed. Now can any sane man see that his father is being killed, and he's standing silently, without any protest? And Bali Mahārāja, he rejected his spiritual master. When Śukrācārya said that "Don't promise. He's Viṣṇu. He'll take everything of your. Don't promise anything," the Bali Mahārāja said, "He is Viṣṇu? And you are asking me not to promise to Him? Oh, I don't want such spiritual master. I reject him." To reject spiritual master is a great sin. So these are, from social point of view, from religious point of view, these are irreligious, sinful activities, to reject one's spiritual master; to see one's father being killed in one's presence; one woman is going to another boy, dead of night. Superficially they are sinful activities. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū-vargeṇa yā kalpitā. There is no upāsanā, method of worship, as it was conceived by the gopīs. First class.
Point of view (Lectures, Other)
Expressions researched:
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Lectures
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
Festival Lectures
So every year He was taking part in this car festival of Jagannātha. This Jagannātha Deity was established by one King Indradyumna about more than three thousand years ago. This temple is very old. Even in some literatures of your Christian religion I find that Lord Jesus Christ also went to this Jagannātha temple and lived there for sometimes. Of course, how far it is true, that is to be judged by you, but I have read this information in a Christian book, Aquarian Gospel. So if we take this incidence that Lord Jesus Christ also went to Jagannātha temple, then from historical point of view it is two thousand years old. But it is, according to our calculation, it is more than three thousand years old. So this Indradyumna king, he asked Viśvakarma to carve the deity of Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma and Subhadra. And there was a time limit. Viśvakarma made an agreement that "Unless I finish the deity's carving very nicely, you cannot see me." So door was closed, and the king was very much anxious to see the temple is established very soon. So he forcibly opened the door, and he saw that the deities were half finished. The Deity Jagannātha as you see, it appears half finished. The king decided, "Never mind it is half finished. I shall install these deities in the temple." Since then, the three deities Jagannātha, Balarāma and Subhadra are being worshiped in India, Jagannātha Purī. Perhaps you know. And the car festival takes place every year, and millions of people go there to participate in that cart, car festival.
en everything will be neutralized." This is all right. Suppose on Sunday you become free from all contamination of your sinful activities. And Monday you again do the same thing. So you become again contaminated. And, say, on Tuesday if you die, then you are dying with sins. Is it not? Then what is your condition? If the God or Christ excused you of your sinful life, that's all right. But when you come back, you don't commit again sin. Then you are all right. But we have taken it as a business that we go to Sunday, neutralize our sins, and come back again and do the same thing. So from logical point of view, suppose you do the same sinful activities, and if you die immediately, then you die with sinful activities, go to hell. What benefit you derive by confessing in the church? This business is going on. "Now I have seen Jagannātha. My liberation is guaranteed. Now I can do anything." That's all. This mentality. This mentality will not give you liberation. You have seen Jagannātha, your sinful activities are now neutralized, but don't commit again. Now make progress. Then your liberation is guaranteed. Is it clear?
So spiritually, appearance and disappearance, there is no difference. Just like in material point of view, if a person takes birth... Suppose you get a son born, you become very happy. The same son, when passes away, you become very unhappy. This is material. And spiritually, there is no such difference, appearance or disappearance. So although this is the disappearance day of Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, so there is nothing to be lamented. Although we feel separation, that feeling is there, but spiritually, there is no difference between appearance and disappearance. There is a song, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's song, ye anilo prema-dhana. Do you know, any one of you? Can you sing that song anyone? Oh. Ye anilo prema-dhana, karuṇā pracura, heno prabhu kothā gelo. I don't remember exactly the whole song. That is our lamentation, that Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura brought this message to distribute all over... Of course, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu expressed His desire, that
- pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma
- sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma
- (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126)
He predicted that "All over the world, as many towns and villages are there, everywhere My name will be known." Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name.
So anyway, it was Kṛṣṇa's grace. I would not go, but their point of view was that unless I certify that sādhu, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, he'll not be accepted. Therefore he dragged me. So I went to see Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura on that day. On the first meeting, just we offer our obeisances. It is the practice. So immediately he began his talking that "You are all educated young men. Why don't you take up Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult and preach all over the English knowing public? Why don't you take up this matter?" So I argued with him in so many... At that time I was nationalist. So I told that "Who will accept our message? We are dependent nation. Nobody will care." In this way, in my own way, in these younger days... But we belonged to the Vaiṣṇava family, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nityānanda, Rādhā-Govinda. That is our worshipable Deity. So I was very glad that "Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa cult, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's cult, this sādhu is trying to preach. It is very nice."
That is not advancement of civili... That is increasing their anxiety. There is no solution of the anxiety. There is... Formerly that... I was speaking. There was no university. The university was in the cottage-Vyāsadeva. Vyāsadeva was writing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and all the Purāṇas in a cottage. The university was there. Who can produce such literature as Vyāsadeva has given? From any angle of vision, from literary point of view, from philosophical point of view—everything, so perfect, every literature, Mahābhārata, Purāṇas, and Vedānta. Veda-vyāsa, he has given. So there was no need of university. It required clear brain. That was to be done by the brahminical qualifications, śamo damo titikṣā ārjava, jñānaṁ-vijñānam āstikyam brahma-karma svabhāva... Where is that education? This education, technical education, how you can very nicely hammer, this will not solve the problem. So if we want real solution of the problems, then our duty is first of all to take the shelter of nitāi-pada-kamala. Then we'll be happy, and we'll get moonshine, and our all fatigueness will be subsided.
Then, after disappearance of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura in 1914... Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura organized this Kṛṣṇa Caitanya's movement in pure form from Māyāpur. He published many books and papers, Sajjana-toṣaṇī. When he passed away in 1914, at that time, he entrusted the matter to Siddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, that "I am going, my work unfinished, about this Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. You take charge of it." So he took very seriously the word of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So since 1914 to '18, he was simply thinking that "How I can expand this movement?" So in 1918 he started this movement with the help of some disciples. Kṛṣṇa sent him. So one of the disciples, he is now Tīrtha Mahārāja. Perhaps he is... He belonged to Rama Krishna Mission Society. So he is very ambitious. So he took the opportunity of starting this movement, finding out the saintly person. So apart from that point of view, with his help this Gauḍīya Mission was started, and gradually it developed. So in Calcutta Guru Mahārāja started in 1918. And, I think, in 1922, when I was young man, one of my friends, he took me to Guru Mahārāja. That was my first meeting. And, of course, he was speaking to everyone, but he found me as something. So immediately after my meeting, he said this, that "Why don't you preach this Caitanya's cult in the Western countries?" That is a memorable day. Of course, I did not know that I will have to do it. You see?
One-hundred-third birth anniversary. So this is formal, one-hundred-third or, or, or -second. It is eternal. It is eternal. Just like Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has described, nitya-līlā. Nitya-līlā means it is going on. Just like just now it is eleven o'clock. This eleven o'clock, and when it becomes twelve o'clock noon, it does not mean that eleven o'clock is passed. Eleven o'clock is existing somewhere. In India it is eleven o'clock, somewhere else it is ten o'clock, and when in India it will be twelve o'clock that eleven o'clock will be somewhere else. Therefore one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, you take, that is going on. It is not that one is finished. That is material calculation. Material calculation, this body we have got. When this body will be finished it is finished forever. It will never come. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as finished. Nitya-līlā. Nitya-mukta. We have to understand that. In the material world, one minute's lost, it is lost forever. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has given us instruction from the material point of view,
- āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi
- na labhyaḥ svarṇa-koṭibhiḥ
- sacen nirārthakaṁ nītaḥ
- kā ca hānis tato 'dhikaḥ
Āyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi. Suppose I shall live fifty years or hundred years maximum. So out of them, one moment lost, it will be never returned. From our birth, when a child is born we ask the parents when the child is born. The parents say, "This child was born in the morning, ten o'clock." So if the child is born at ten o'clock and I am asking at eleven o'clock, the one hour life of the child lost. Eleven o'clock means child has already died one hour out of his one hundred years.
Arrival Addresses and Talks
"That is the success of the movement, because younger generation, they are the flowers, the future hope of the country, of the world. If they take this movement seriously then the whole world will be happy." Vedic civilization desires that everyone be happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. Vedic civilization is not animal civilization, exploiting others... Giving something to others. Sometimes the people, they think that India comes to the foreign country to take qualification for earning livelihood. Actually they come here when... One of my Godbrothers long ago, he came to England Lady Willingdon challenged the preacher that "In your country the people come here, they take some degree and go to back to their country and become big man. So what you have got to teach us?" Actually, from materialistic point of view we haven't got to teach to the Western country anything. That's a fact. Because your science, your machine, (is) far advanced. But still there is a great treasure house in India, which is spiritual knowledge. You have to take from India.
So I do not wish to take much of your time, but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spiritual movement; therefore sometimes it is misunderstood from the material stand, material point of view. But if we associate with the persons who are propagating this movement, there is process how to understand. The process is very simple: this saṅkīrtana movement. Just like we chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. If we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, it is not very difficult task. There are only sixteen words: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare... Actually, there are three words—Hare, Kṛṣṇa and Rāma—but they have been adjusted in such a way, they are composition sixteen words. So we are simply requesting the people in general that "You chant this mantra. It is not very difficult. And if you chant this mantra, then gradually your heart will be cleansed."
Initiation Lectures
So in our association we welcome this sort of marriage between trained brahmacārī and brahmacāriṇī so that we can welcome nice children for future Kṛṣṇa conscious generation. That is our viewpoint. So... And initiation... Initiation means to begin spiritual life. According to Vedic culture, there are two births. One birth is from the gṛhastha parents, father and mother, and the other birth is between the spiritual master and Vedas. The Vedic knowledge is considered mother, and the spiritual master is considered the father. And by the help of the spiritual master, when one gets into transcendental knowledge, that is called second birth. So janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ: "Everyone is born śūdra." Śūdra means without any culture. They are called śūdras.
So either Christian, Muhammadan or Hindus or anyone, they were constructing temple, churches, mosques. But that mentality is gone. You see? They will spend lots of money for a skyscraper building to get income, and temple is called nonproductive building. You see? They do not wish to engage their money in nonproductive thing because they have become economic. But that is wrong theory. You see? That economic means forgetting God. And that means, I mean to say, animal life. If by becoming a human being, he becomes an animal, if he thinks that he has become economical, that is not very sane conclusion. So godless means animal. The animals, they do not know how to create a church or temple or mosque. The mosque or temple or church, they are done in the human society. So when the human society forgets this responsibility from economic point of view, that means they degrade to the animal life.
That is the thing. One should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. We have got in our society... Just like I am sannyāsī, Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is sannyāsī. So we are renounced order. But there are many gṛhasthas, just like Hayagrīva dāsa adhikārī and others. So there is no such distinction that one has to take the path of the renounced order of life. The real essence of our life should be how much we are Kṛṣṇa conscious.
So keeping this point of view, if we follow the regulative principles, then... The real point is that we must be satisfied—we should not be disturbed—and execute peacefully, happily, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so that in our next life we may be transferred to Kṛṣṇaloka. We cannot go to any other planet even within this material world by this mechanical way. No. Everyone has to prepare. Because we are conditioned. We have to get out of the conditional stage; then it is possible we can transfer to any planet we like.
Wedding Ceremonies
So apart from that argumental point of view, our presentation is that this conjugal love between man and woman is not unnatural. It is quite natural because it is in the Absolute Truth, as we find from Vedic description, that the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead, is engaged in conjugal loving affairs, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. But the same Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa love matter has permeated through matter. Therefore it is perverted reflection. Here in this material world, the so-called love is not actual love. It is lust. Here the male and female are attracted not by love but by lust. So in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness society, because we are trying to approach the Absolute Truth, the lust propensity has to be converted into pure love. That is the proposal.
General Lectures
So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very simple. Very simple. It is inaugurated by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu especially, although it is very old, in the Vedic scripture, but still, taking from the historical point of view, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is since Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared on the surface of this planet five thousand years ago, and later on, Lord Caitanya, five hundred years ago, He expanded that movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. His mission, Lord Caitanya's mission, is ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayaḥ. If you want to love or if you want to be subordinate... Everyone is subordinate. This is false. Everyone wants to be independent, but nobody is independent. Everyone is subordinate. Nobody can say that "I am independent." Can you say, any one of you, that you are independent? Is there anybody? No. Everyone is subordinate willingly. Not by force everyone becomes subordinate. A girl says a boy, "I want to become your subordinate," willingly.
Otherwise it will overripe, it will decompose, it will fall down, and finish. That is material. But spiritual is not like that. It is not finished. If you once come to the stage of mature stage of love, then that perfectional stage continues eternally, and your life is successful. Premā pum-artho mahān. There are many different types of perfection in this material world. Somebody is thinking, "This is perfection of life." Materialists, they are thinking, "If I can enjoy my senses very nicely, that is perfection of life." That is their point of view. And when they are frustrated, they find out, or try to find out, something better. So if he's not guided, something better means the same—sex and intoxication. That's all. Simply becomes irresponsible. That's all. Because there is no guide. He's finding out, searching out something better, but because there is no guide, he comes to the same sense or sex and intoxication—to forget. A businessman, when he's failure, so much disturbance. He tries to forget him by drinking. But this is artificial way. This is not actually the remedy. How long you can forget? Sleep—how long you can sleep? Again wake up, again you are in the same position. That is not the way. But if you come to the stage of love of Godhead, then naturally you forget all this nonsense. Naturally. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). If you find out something more palatable, more relishable, you give up nonsense things which is not so nice to taste.
Now, now, who gave him this lifetime duration, this movement? Just like Śrīman Gaurasundara began his speech, that without pushing on, without being moved by somebody else, nothing can move. So He is also moving. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Therefore He is there.(?) We must know how He is acting. Simply by understanding the word "Kṛṣṇa," you do not... We must know thoroughly how Kṛṣṇa is acting. That is all explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. If we study Bhagavad-gītā very carefully, as it is, we can understand. Tasmin vijñāte sarvam eva vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you can simply understand the Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa philosophy, then you understand everything. It is so perfect. (break) ...question you can put. (break) Now, modern-days people are very much attracted by scientific knowledge. Oh, there is complete scientific knowledge in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if you want to understand, even from scientific point of view, these boys will be able to answer you. (break) ...question, then chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
So God is not created by such artificial meditation. God is God. Just like chemically you cannot produce gold. Gold is gold. Iron is iron. Law of identification. So His opulence, His strength, His reputation... His reputation, taking Kṛṣṇa as a great personality, I don't think any personality in this world is existing who is so reputed as Kṛṣṇa from historical point of view, five thousand years past. You may... "Kṛṣṇa was Indian. He is famous in India." No. Kṛṣṇa is famous in every country all over the world for His Bhagavad-gītā. You'll find Kṛṣṇa's name in the dictionary also. So in reputation nobody can compete, in wealth nobody can compete, in strength nobody can compete, in wisdom... Take Bhagavad-gītā. Such a book of wisdom, knowledge. There is no comparison in the world. Take it philosophically or religiously or any way, there is no comparison. And renunciation. When Kṛṣṇa was present, His Yadu dynasty consisted of many hundreds of thousands members. And before His departure He finished them and went away. Renunciation.
What is that? Oh. More pleasurement? Oh. There is no question of pleasure or distress. Pleasure must be there always, but it is the question of curing. Just like when you are under the treatment of an expert physician, he says that "You shall eat like this. You shall sleep like this. You shall mate like this. You shall do like this," so it may not be pleasure, but if I want to cure myself, we have to accept the physician's direction. It is pleasure because the physician is taking him to the healthy state of life. So as soon as he gets that he is getting healthy or he is getting out of the diseased condition, that becomes pleasurable—"Oh, yes, I am being cured. I am being cured." So apart from that point of view, it is not the question of whether it is pleasurable or nonpleasurable, but (if) you want to cure yourself from the disease, you have to follow the directions. That is the process. Yes.
My dear boys and girls, I thank you very much for your coming here and participating with this saṅkīrtana function. The saṅkīrtana function, or... It is called saṅkīrtana-yajña, sacrifice. There is a statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that saṅkīrtanair yajñaiḥ prayair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). In this age... As poet Ginsberg has explained to you, this is called Kali-yuga, or very degraded age. From the spiritual point of view, from material point of view also, people are reducing their duration of life and their merciful tendency, their strength, their stature. If you study scrutinizingly, you will see that your stature is reducing, your memory is reducing, your duration of life is also reducing in this Kali-yuga. There are many symptoms. So Bhāgavata recommends, "For self-realization in this age, simply by performing this sacrifice of saṅkīrtana..." The saṅkīrtana-yajña is so nice that at once you get transcendental ecstasy, and from spiritual consciousness, you try to join.
So these feelings will be enlightened. We cannot be enlightened unless we come to the real point of God, or Kṛṣṇa. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. It is not a new movement, because as I told you that this is based on the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, and Bhagavad-gītā is not new. At least from historical point of view, it is five thousand years old. And beyond history, pre—history, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Fourth Chapter, it is said, Kṛṣṇa said,
- imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ
- proktavān aham avyayam
- vivasvān manave prāhur
- manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt
- (BG 4.1)
That means "I first of all spoke to the sun-god." Now if you take that duration, it will be some millions of years before it was spoken. These things are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So apart from that statement, from historical point of view, since the days of Mahābhārata, yes, Battle of Kurukṣetra... Bhagavad-gītā was spoken in the Battle of Kurukṣetra. From historical point of view, it is five thousand years old. So this Bhagavad-gītā teaching is coming from, at least, from five thousand, since five thousand years. So it is older than any other scripture in the world.
Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everything. The bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ kham... (BG 7.4). Kṛṣṇa says, "My energy." As you cannot separate energy and the energetic, Kṛṣṇa is everything. So Kṛṣṇa can accept your service through everything. Don't consider that "This is metal." The metal is also Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we should know bhūmi..., bhūmi... Metal, what is metal? Metal means earth. Kṛṣṇa says, first of all says, bhūmir āpo analo vāyuḥ: "They are My all energies." So from argument's point of view, Kṛṣṇa is everything. Therefore Kṛṣṇa can accept service through everything. So this Deity, vigraha, either made of wood, made of stone or earth or metal or painting, they are not different from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has got the potency to accept your service through this medium. So they are not pictures or they are not ordinary idols. You should never... Similarly, a sound vibration. Kṛṣṇa is present through sound vibration because the five elements, ākāśa, the sky... Sky, within sky, there is sound. So from argumentative point of view also, nobody can deny that this chanting of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa is not identical. It is identical. Because identical... Everything is identical.
So as soon as you approach the Deity or the name, you should know fully well that Kṛṣṇa is present. Kṛṣṇa is... Therefore we should worship the Deity with great attention, as much as Kṛṣṇa is present. And similarly, we should worship the holy name with great attention. We should not be inattentive. Suppose Kṛṣṇa personally comes, personally He is here. Suppose personally, as you think of personally, personally comes. If you do not become respectful, is that all right? No. You should be very much respectful. Even a respectable person, ordinary person, a big man or a rich man or a king comes, we become so much respectful. And what about Kṛṣṇa when He's present as arcā-mūrti or as the holy name? These are the realization point of view: Kṛṣṇa, His name, His form, His quality, His pastimes. When you hear about Kṛṣṇa, that is also Kṛṣṇa. Actually, when you are reading Kṛṣṇa book, Kṛṣṇa is fighting with demons, that is also His pastime. So Kṛṣṇa is present. So you should be very attentive and worship this hearing. Unless we come to this point, there is lack of realization what is Kṛṣṇa.
So apart from this historical point of view, try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means pure consciousness. Just like water, when it falls down from the cloud, it is pure, and as soon as it drops or mixes with the muddy earth, it becomes muddy. It is not more clear. Similarly, we, as spirit soul, our consciousness is as pure as Kṛṣṇa is pure. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Gradually, as we contact the material contamination, we become different conscious. Just like we are sitting, so many ladies and gentleman here. Some of us thinking that "I am American," some of them are thinking that "We are Indian," some of them are thinking "German," or this or that—"I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am white," "I am black." In so many way we are. Our consciousness are polluted.
The Vedas, they confirm it. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then everything will be understood. Because Kṛṣṇa is everything, God is everything. To understand Kṛṣṇa, simply this attachment... Mayy āsakta-manāḥ. Āsakti means attachment. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is... We are teaching people, our students especially, how to increase attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Why this temple? They are feeling that "We are sitting in Kṛṣṇa's presence. Kṛṣṇa is so nicely dressed. I am dressing." Otherwise, from atheistic point of view, you see that "Why these people are bothering like this? They have taken a brass idol and wasting time after it?" They can say like that. Because they have no love for Kṛṣṇa. But one who has love for Kṛṣṇa, he sees, "Kṛṣṇa is so kind. He's accepting my dressing. I am crowning. I am garlanding." That is a feeling.
There are innumerable Vedic scriptures. So we cannot come to the conclusion what is right or wrong, because sometimes you will find contradiction from one... Of course, there is no contradiction, but because we are not advanced in knowledge, sometimes we will find contradiction. Just like in India there are two classes of transcendentalists: the impersonalist and the personalist. That is not contradiction. The Absolute Truth is both impersonal and personal, but somebody is stressing on the impersonal point of view and somebody is stressing on the personal point of view. But we Vaiṣṇava, we know what is the meaning of impersonalism and what is the meaning of personalism. We take it for understanding, as it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The Absolute Truth is simultaneously Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. It is simply different stages of understanding. In the first stage, it is Brahman realization. In the second stage, it is Paramātmā realization. And at the last stage, it is Bhagavān realization.
This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a new movement. It is the oldest. From historical point of view, at least five thousand years old. When Kṛṣṇa introduced this consciousness, that is, in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra which took place at least five thousand years ago. And if we believe śāstras, then it is not only four or five thousand years but it is older than forty millions of years. Not forty, four hundred millions of years. Because Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). In the beginning, He told this yoga system of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god. And the sun-god transmitted this message to his son, vivasvān manave prāha, to his son, Manu, Vaivasvata Manu. The age of Vaivasvata Manu calculating, it is about four hundred millions of years ago. Then manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt. Manu, he explained this yoga system to Mahārāja Ikṣvāku. Mahārāja Ikṣvāku happened to be the forefathers of the kṣatriya family in which Lord Rāmacandra appeared. So Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). The system of Bhagavad-gītā, the yoga system explained in the Bhagavad-gītā was understood by the paramparā system.
Indian guest: No, I fully agree with your interpretation of Bhāgavata, but the comparison between Darwin's discoveries and what is mentioned in Bhāgavata, I don't agree with that. It is already mentioned in Bhāgavata, but Swamijī, you are from a different point of view. So...
Prabhupāda: No, that is a wrong theory. Therefore we say. That is a wrong theory. Darwin is studying this body. He does not know. He has no information of the soul; therefore his knowledge is imperfect. His theory is imperfect. It is a long subject matter. If you want to discuss, you come. We shall discuss. It is a wrong theory. That is not scientific advancement. Science means it must be correct. That is science. If science is theory, that is not science. So Darwin is advocating his theory, "May be like this, perhaps like this." This "perhaps," "maybe," is not science. This is only suggestion. We have to deal with the facts. That is science.
So in different planets you have got different standard of living, you have different standard of duration of life. Just like there is so many distinctions even on this planet. Our standard of living and the standard of living of Europeans and Americans are different. Practically, a common man, when he goes to the Western country, from the materialistic point of view, one sees, "Oh, this is heaven. So many nice motorcars, so many nice roads, so many nice skyscraper building, standard of living so nice, earning money, facility, material happiness." So it may be taken as heaven, although it is a, the same planet. So we can very easily imagine that, from the description of the śāstra, that there are different types of planets and different types of standard of living, different types of knowledge, not different types, advancement of knowledge. In this way, the, you go higher and higher. There are higher planetary systems. This is called Bhūrloka. Above this, there is Bhuvarloka. Above that, there is Svargaloka. Above that, there is Janaloka. Above that, there is Mahar, Maharloka, Satyaloka, and Brahmaloka.
Of course, we are very much pleased because we are now able to accommodate Kṛṣṇa here, install the Deity and conduct the temple worship. That way we are happy. But not from material point of view: "Now we have got nice house." No. We can lie down on the street. So na kāṅkṣati. But Kṛṣṇa sends for the facility of our business. Kṛṣṇa gives us all facilities, that's a fact. Although we did not endeavor for constructing this house or so many other houses, but Kṛṣṇa sends us money, Kṛṣṇa sends us the means how to have nice house, how to accommodate the devotees nicely, how to have nice cars also, nice food, everything. There is no scarcity. Don't think that Kṛṣṇa conscious people... We have no business. We are not professional men. Still, we are living better than any ordinary man. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. Kṛṣṇa says, teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ (BG 10.10), yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. He knows, just like a father knows the innocent child's needs. A small child, innocent child, simply dependent on the father or mother. The father, mother knows what this child requires now for his comfort. So father, mother supplies.
So yuktāhāra-vihārasya yoga bhavati siddhitaḥ. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said if you want to be a yogi or spiritualist, you should not take more than what you can digest, what can you eat. Yuktāhāra. You can satisfy your hunger, but according to yogic principle. Or from health point of view, even if you can eat so much, you can understand that "I can eat so much," you should not eat the whole thing. You should eat half. And one fourth you shall fill up with water, and one fourth you should leave vacant so that there may be ventilation, your digestion will be easily done. This is Āyurvedic law. Even if you think that you can eat so much, you should not voluntarily eat so much. You should eat half, and one-fourth you should fill up with water, and one-fourth you keep vacant for air ventilation. Then there will be no disease. It is hygienic principle. And as soon as you eat more than what you can digest, you become diseased. That means you are punished. Similarly, in every action you can have your portion as you need, but don't take more. Then it is helpful to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yuktāhāra vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhi.
Yogeśvara: His first question was do we use machines and modern methods on our āśramas and farms.
Prabhupāda: We have no objection. We want to be self-sufficient. That is our point of view. We have no objection with... It is not that we don't touch machine. We don't say like that. But we want to be self-sufficient. That is our point. We have not taken a vow that we shall not touch any machine. No, no. We're not like that.
Guest (6): Well, I think it's an admirable objective. Certainly it can be realized in small rural communities which acquire the necessary surface to have each member in the community to be self-sufficient. Like in the Middle Ages in this country the monks were more or less self-sufficient within the frame of their land. But outside this, the peasants were really always hungry.
Guru-gaurāṅga: He says that on a small level that may be valid like the monks who have their monastery and they made food enough, but for most people, especially where the climate is so unfavorable... He said that the Swiss people, they could not even stay on the land in the past, but they had to go away to find food because of the climate. So on the whole he does not see the practicality.
Prabhupāda: Well, after all, this is material world. The miserable conditions are there. But as far as possible, try to minimize. Our only aim is how to save time for spiritual cultivation. That is our main aim. So we have to find out the opportunity according to the time, circumstances. We, we do not reject anything. Whatever is favorable, we accept.
So the devotee, he doesn't require to acquire any mystic power. What mystic power Prahlāda could attain? He was only five years old. So there was no opportunity of acquiring any mystic power. But he was being protected by the supreme mystic, Kṛṣṇa. That should be a devotee's point of view. Don't waste your time for acquiring so-called mystic power. Just devote yourself to remain a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and you become the supreme mystic. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā:
- yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
- mad-gatenāntarātmanā
- śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
- sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
- (BG 6.47)
There are many yogis, mystics, but Kṛṣṇa confirms that "Of all the yogis, of all the mystics, a person who is always thinking of Me," śraddhāvān bhajate yo mām, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā, "always thinking Me, Kṛṣṇa, within himself: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare...," so Kṛṣṇa said, "he is the best yogi." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. Sarveṣam means "of all." "Of all kinds of yogis, the best yogi is who is always thinking of Me." That is Kṛṣṇa's philosophy, He is teaching in the Bhagavad-gītā. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65).
So we have to save ourself from this misconception of life. Then we can make progress in the matter of understanding what is God. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without any deviation, and people are appreciating. Our, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is is being accepted by big, big scholars and professors. We have got innumerable certificates or their opinion, and it is being well received. And from monetary point of view also, you'll be surprised that we are selling millions of copies of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. So we have come to your city to say something about Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. If respectable persons of this city will come and attend this meeting, I shall try to explain more and more so long I am present here. Now, if you have got any question on the subject matter I have spoken, you can make. I shall try to answer. (pause) So there is no question, I think. Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Now a kīrtana.
Paris. So in the Western countries Ratha-yātrā is being introduced one after another, and Jagannātha Swami is attracting the attention of the Western people. (someone talking in background) What is that? So people will come in your Jagannātha Purī now from all parts of the world. That is beneficial from various point of view. From the point of tourist program, the government will benefit. And when they're attracted to see Jagannātha Purī, Jagannātha Swami... Unfortunately, you do not allow these foreigners to enter the temple. How it can be adjusted? This stumbling block should be dissolved. If you want Jagannātha Swami to pack up within your home, and you do not expand the mercy of Jagannātha... He is Jagannātha. He's not only this Purī-nātha, or Oriya-nātha; He's Jagannātha. Kṛṣṇa declares in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). That is the definition of Jagannātha, sarva-loka-maheśvaram. So why you should deny the inhabitants of Sarva-loka the darśana of Jagannātha? That is not... Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu never approved such thing.
Philosophy Discussions
Śyāmasundara: Leibnitz, his point of view is that he accepts the conditions of this material world as being all right. They are the best we can hope for, the best of a bad bargain.
Prabhupāda: But Bhagavad-gītā says that it is the place for miseries only. Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It is a place simply for suffering, and that also we cannot stay for a long time. Even if you agree to stay in this uncomfortable situation of life, still you will not be allowed; you have to change this place, change this body, that may go higher or lower. Therefore this life, the material life, is on the whole miserable. There is no question of any happiness.
Hayagrīva: He appears opposed...
Prabhupāda: Two things: that this world is experienced, nobody is happy, unless he is an animal. Animal, they do not know what is happiness or distress. In any condition they remain satisfied. But a man, he feels pain. Just like our Hari-śauri was speaking that there were reports that because the children cry, sometimes parents kill them. This is the world. And actually there have been many cases. So from practical point of view, this world is not happy. That is a fact. Now if there is a happy world, why one should not try for that?
Hayagrīva: He says the sooner we arrive at that divine being—the sooner we arrive at God—so much the better.
Prabhupāda: We become God?
Hayagrīva: No. In the search for God...
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Hayagrīva: ...the sooner we find God, the better. He says when you go one step beyond the mundane system, you only excite an inquisitive humor, which it is impossible ever to satisfy.
Prabhupāda: What..., I do not follow what you mean. What is the meaning of this?
Prabhupāda: What is that reason? How can he prove? He must have proved by his experience. Thus his experience proving that things are... The man who is talking of this nonsense can he prove that he is born without his father? How is that? How his existing is there? How his material body came into existence? It was caused by his father. Then how can he deny the cause? His very existence is depending upon some cause.
Śyāmasundara: So according to one point of view, Hume's point of view, cause and effect are not necessarily related, that they are habitually connected.
Prabhupāda: The scientist, he'll say that the father begets the child. Why it is not related? It is simply lunacy not to believe this. Where is the instance that without father some child has taken birth? Where is such instance? He himself is talking such nonsense. He is born by his father. The cause is his father. Similarly, his father is also the effect of his father. Therefore there is supreme father, father of this cosmic manifestation. How you can deny it? That is the defect of the speculators: they contradict themselves.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. The, normally, what they call the age determination, or how old a species is, they normally find out from this so-called (indistinct). They find some bone or something which contains normally carbonate. And normally they get this age of the elements or age of these findings by so-called Carbon 14 method. Carbon 14 is an isotope of normal carbon, it is called Carbon 12. Carbon 14 is radioactive. It's one in which they put in the radioactive testing, and they find out because it follows the normal chemical laws or physical laws. This is governed by the Lord Himself, by Kṛṣṇa Himself. They're finding the chemical lowest form, and from that chemical lowest they normally try to reduce the, how old the sample is, and that method is very limited, it is not applicable to all findings also, and a test, a very reliable test (indistinct) to about five thousand, six thousand years old but beyond that it is very doubtful whether the findings are really true or not. (break) It is empiric so we cannot fully convince that such-and-such species lives such-and-such long just from that finding. You need more evidence to prove it (indistinct) was existing and it disappeared from such-and-such time but it gives a relative value from so-called modern scientific point of view.
Prabhupāda: But evolution we accept. Evolution we accept but it is not that there was no existence of human being. That we do not accept. Evolution we accept. Just like my childhood manifestation is extinct but there are many other child. Same time. So our point is all the species of life, they are existing simultaneously. Evolution there is, we accept that but it is not that one is missing, one has gone away, and another is come, ten million, thirty millions there was no human being. This is all nonsense. He cannot find in the layer, that is not evidence.
Śyāmasundara: It seems like these two philosophers have two different viewpoints. The first one, Huxley thinks that man can take nature into his own hands and mold his own evolution.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense.
Śyāmasundara: Whereas this philosopher thinks that we should just..., that the vital force is guiding everyone and is creating its own evolution, that we should just drift in the course of things and the vital force will determine history or will determine our future.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vital force will determine. That is somewhat...
Śyāmasundara: Without our doing—without anything of our own doing.
Prabhupāda: No. Vital force must know how to make progress, how to do it. Then he'll be... If he does not know how to do it, how it will be possible? Can you do anything... Suppose you are learning some mechanical business, can you do it without direction? You have to learn. You must get a teacher. So, without teacher, that is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Individual, he is always individual. Perpetually.
Hayagrīva: Yes. Concerning the creation, Bergson speaks of impulsion and attraction, and he says, "The causal relation between God and the world is seen as an attraction when regarded from below, as an impulsion or a contact when regarded from above. Therefore we perceive God as an efficient, that is a beginning, cause or as a final cause, according to the point of view." That is, we can see things either..., the creation coming from God or moving toward God, depending on our viewpoint.
Prabhupāda: No. Creation is..., God is always there. Before the creation and when the creation is finished, there is God. So God is not one of the creation. In the creation there are so many things coming out, so God is not one of the products of creation because He is created. He was before creation and He will exist to continue after annihilation. This is the Vedic knowledge.
Hayagrīva: Yes. This is, this is what he is saying.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Hayagrīva: That God is the alpha, the beginning, and the omega, the end, depending on our point of view. He also says in the middle.
Prabhupāda: Not, not of the point of view. It is always there.
Hayagrīva: Well, this can be taken from the individual point of view or from the idea that God is the architect of the universe. But according to the system of yugas, there is a greater harmony in the beginning, and as the universe winds down, this harmony disintegrates-Tretā-, Dvāpara-, and Kali-yuga. Yet there's a plan.
Prabhupāda: That's, what is called, that is the nature. First, first of all something is created, then it develops, it stays for some time, then it becomes old, dwindling, and then finished. This is called six changes of sarvika (?), of anything material. But a spirit soul is not material. He is not subjected to all these changes. This is our practical experience. The body is changing but spirit soul is the same. He remembers that "I had this body, a child's body. I have this young boy's body." He remembers; therefore he is eternal. The change is taking place of the body, so therefore the soul has nothing to do with the bodily changes. He has got his perpetual duty, perpetual activity—that is devotional service. So he has to be trained up in that perpetual duty, then he will stop this process of bodily changes, he will remain in his eternal body, spiritual body. That is going back to home, back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Dissatisfaction is a good thing if it is for better advancement. That is wanted. Dissatisfaction. Just like the karmīs, they are also dissatisfied with 100,000 of dollars. That means they want to make one million thousands of dollars. So that kind of dissatisfaction for the karmī is good, because he can increase further assets. Similarly, if I am dissatisfied spiritually or I am not making advance, I am still on the material platform. That is good. That dissatisfaction is... Socrates also. Yes. And ass, cats, dogs, they are satisfied with a morsel of grass, that's all. You see? A little stool, what is the value of that satisfaction? What is the value of that? That is our philosophy. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu is dissatisfied. What is that? Kadā tava-nāma-grahaṇe bhaviṣyate.
- yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa
- cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam
- śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ
- govinda-viraheṇa me
Nayanaṁ galad-aśru-dhārayā, cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam. What is that verse? Nayanaṁ galad-aśru-dhārayā? Pulakair nicitaṁ vapuḥ. Gadgada-girā. Kadā tava-nāma-grahaṇe bhaviṣyati. There is dissatisfaction, that "When My heart will be throbbing? When torrents of rain will come out from My eyes? When My speech will be faltering? When that day will come?" That means this ordinary way He's not satisfied. That is the ecstatic summit: one becomes like a madman, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So He is expecting, "When that stage will come?" This stage comes when one is in the summit of chanting, this stage, aṣṭa-śakti-vidhā, eight kinds of transformation. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu is putting forward that "When that stage will come?" Dissatisfaction. This is dissatisfaction. He says, "I have not a pinch of devotion to Kṛṣṇa." Even after crying, even coming to that stage of crying, He says, "No, it is not the stage. I am crying just to make a show that I am a great devotee. I do not love Kṛṣṇa. The evidence is that I am still living. Without Kṛṣṇa and still I'm living. That is My imperfection. If I would have been really lover of Kṛṣṇa, without Kṛṣṇa I would have long, long ago died. But that I have not done. I am still living." So who can show dissatisfaction like this? He says that "I am still living. This is the evidence that I do not love Kṛṣṇa." Even coming to the crying stage, first of all He said, "When I shall cry incessantly for want of Kṛṣṇa?" And again coming to that stage, He is still dissatisfied. He says, "I am simply crying just to make a show. I do not love Kṛṣṇa. If there was pinch of love for Kṛṣṇa, then I would have died long, long ago without Kṛṣṇa." This is dissatisfaction. Who can show such kind of dissatisfaction? And who can feel such dissatisfaction? So the best utility is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, from any philosophical point of view.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that in this way by everyone being free to compete, the best ones will come out.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is not freedom; that is competition.
Śyāmasundara: Competition. But in order to compete, there has to be freedom.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another thing. But nobody is independent. That is our point of view. Everyone is dependent. Somebody is voluntarily dependent on Kṛṣṇa and somebody is by force dependent on māyā. That's all. But he must be dependent.
Śyāmasundara: He says in this way that society should be organized so that there is freedom of belief, freedom to unite, freedom of taste, freedom of competition. But one individual's freedom should not encroach upon another individual's freedom.
Prabhupāda: Then why they are killing? The freedom of the poor animals, why they encroach on the freedom of others? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam (ISO 1). Do not encroach upon others' freedom. That is Vedic injunction. That is nice. But why these people are encroaching upon the freedom of these animals? The birds, they are flying, freedom, the ducks. Why they kill? Encroaching upon other's freedom. Without any harm, the birds are flying, without... If you kill an aggressor then you are right. Suppose somebody is coming to kill you, then you kill first. That is good. But if somebody's not doing anything harm to you, and if you kill, then what is this philosophy? What is this philosophy? Give him some bad name, because I have to kill him. "Oh, he has no soul." You can attack, he has no consciousness, you have no soul. You can attack him. Why you are killing? Let him kill you. So far this philosophy of religion, he says that God is good, but that he is involved in a world which is not his own making. That God didn't create the world, but that he is involved with it. Then we should be judged by Mill. God is good, but not as good as he thinks he is. That is his opinion about God.
Śyāmasundara: He sees that there are two basic or fundamental philosophical temperaments. The one he calls tendermindedness, which is exemplified by the rationalist, the idealist, the optimist, the religionist, and the dogmatist; and toughmindedness, or the empiricist, the materialist, the pessimist, the irreligious, the fatalist and the skeptic. He says that philosophers are of two types: tender minded and tough minded.
Prabhupāda: So this depends upon one's education. If one is educated, in one way he may become tender, and another man, if he is educated in a different way, he may be hard. But our proposition is that originally the soul is good. This tenderness and hardness, they are developed later on. But they are not standard. When you come to the platform of soul, there everything is good. In that platform, either tenderness or hardness, both of them are in the absolute. So our philosophy is that, as we understand from Bhagavad-gītā, that every living entity is part and parcel of God. So God is good, pavitra. Just like Arjuna accepts, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12). Pavitra means pure. But because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we are pure. The impurities are acquired by our contamination with this material world. So either you become tender or hard—that is impurity of this material world. So we don't give any credit to any person, either he is tender or hard. These are all material qualifications. When he is spiritually placed, then we give him, that he is now liberated, either from tenderness or from hardness. These are all material qualifications. One is hard, one is tender. So that is our material quality. Just like a disease. One is suffering from headache, one is suffering from indigestion, or one is suffering from fever. So one who is suffering from headache, he is thinking, "Instead of having a headache, if I would have suffered from indigestion it was better." You see? And the man who is suffering from indigestion, passing stool every three minutes, he is thinking that "If I would have suffered from headache instead of this nasty disease, I would have been all right." So these rascaldom, either tenderness or something, it is the same thing. It is our mental concoction that he thinks this is a better disease. It is not better. It is bad. Therefore it is explained by Caitanya-caritāmṛta, 'dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali saman, ei bhalo ei manda sab more ghara. 'Dvaite: when you are contaminated, diseased... I will give you one... I heard from one of my medical practitioners friend. So he told me that when he was a student in Calcutta there was a big professor, Colonel Megha, English professor. He was lecturing, and with in talking he said that in our country that seventy-eight percent of the students are infected with syphilis. Yes. So the doctor said as soon as he heard from Professor Megha, he said, "Horrible." And the doctor said, "Why you are saying horrible? In your country ninety-nine percent are suffering from malaria. So as a doctor you should take the disease. Why do you think that this is a horrible and this is not horrible? You are thinking that malaria is not horrible; syphilis is horrible. But in our country we think syphilis is not horrible and malaria is horrible. So as a medical practitioner you should consider the disease, not the aftereffects. Aftereffects of all diseases is suffering, either it is malaria or it is syphilis." So we should be concerned that this soul, pure soul, is affected by these sattva, rajas, tamaguṇa, material modes of nature, and he is suffering. So he should be given relief from this suffering, not that because one is contaminated by this sattva-guṇa, one is a brāhmaṇa, very nice brāhmaṇa, therefore that is, from a material point of view, the brāhmaṇa is better than a śūdra. But from the spiritual platform, either a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra, they are contaminated by this material nature, so they are suffering. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brāhmaṇa is thinking, "Oh, I am so pure. I am learned." So that is, thinking "I am so, I am so, I am so..." he is not thinking that he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, or God. Similarly, others are also thinking. So the fact is, so long as one is affected by these material modes of nature, his position is the same.
Prabhupāda: One side he says nirvāṇa, and other side is that it is continued. When he could not understand the Indian philosophy, he is trying to address in his own way.
Hayagrīva: He speaks of Bhagavad-gītā. He says, "Kṛṣṇa thus raises the mind of His young pupil Arjuna. When seized with compunction at the sight of the arrayed host armies, he loses heart and desires to give up the battle in order to avert the death of so many thousands. Kṛṣṇa leads him to this point of view, and the death of those thousands can no longer restrain him. He gives the sign of battle." But was it actually Kṛṣṇa's assurance of immortality that brought Arjuna to fight?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Immortality. So what is his philosophy of the immortal living being? As he is immortal, his willing business is also immortal. If he accepts the living being as immortal, how he can stop-nirvāṇa—his willing?
Hayagrīva: He seems to have no other solution other than the suppression of willing.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Suppression willing, that is not possible. He has to change the quality of willing; then he will be happy. And that is bhakti. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). The process of willing should be purified. Then he will be happy. And the process of purifying the willing is bhakti, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), chanting and hearing of the pastimes, all about the Lord. That will purify him. He is missing the point that he is individual, accepting that life is eternal, and still he wants, prefers this nirvāṇa. But he does not know what is nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa means this kind of whimsical willing is troublesome. He has to stop this whimsical willing. He has to come to the standard willing. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Hayagrīva: The... He speaks of the sannyāsī, who lives without a dwelling and entirely without property, who is advised not to lay down often under the same tree least he should acquire a preference or inclination for it above other trees. The Christian mystic and the teacher of the Vedānta philosophy agree in this respect also, that they both regard all outward works and religious exercises as superfluous for him who has attained to perfection. Isn't this the viewpoint of the Māyāvādī, and doesn't Kṛṣṇa recommend the lighting of the sacrificial fire even after one has attained perfection?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā na tyājam. Because if he gives up this ritualistic ceremony, then there is chance of falling down. So even though he is liberated, to keep his position secure he should continue these three things: sacrifice, charity, and austerity.
Hayagrīva: There's a lot of sort of interesting points here.
Prabhupāda: Hm. (break)
Hayagrīva: He points out that there's a paradox surrounding death. "On the one hand, from the point of view of the ego," or what we call the false ego, "death is a horrible catastrophe, a fearful piece of brutality. On the other hand, from the point of view of the psyche, the soul, death is a joyful event, in the life of eternity it is a wedding."
Prabhupāda: Yes. In all cases it is eternal, but it is, death is horrible for the person who is going to accept a lower grade of life, and it is pleasure for the devotee, that he is going back to home, back to God. That is the difference.
Hayagrīva: So it's not always a joyful event for the soul.
Prabhupāda: No.
Hayagrīva: This is continuation of Jung. Jung noted that there are five types of rebirths, not he that particularly ascribed to them, but that he noted that in religions that there are five types of rebirth. One is called metempsychosis. He says, "According to this view, one's life is prolonged in time by passing through different bodily existences, or from another point of view it is a life sequence interrupted by different reincarnations. It is by no means certain whether continuity of personality is guaranteed or not. There may only be a continuity of karma." So this is like a transmigration of souls.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the technical name?
Hayagrīva: But... He called, its metempsychosis.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning?
Hayagrīva: It means transmigration of souls...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: Well, he says, "Existentialism isn't so atheistic that it wears itself out showing God doesn't exist. Rather, it declares that even if God did exist, that would change nothing. There you've got our point of view."
Prabhupāda: No, if you exist as others exist, then what is the fault there? God also exists. He exists. Others also existing. So if there is God, what is the fault if He exists? Why he is denying the existence of God? Let them all exist.
Hayagrīva: First of all, he feels that God does not exist.
Prabhupāda: Why? If you exist, if others exist, why God will not exist?
Hayagrīva: That is his position as an atheist.
Prabhupāda: No, atheist, that is there should be reasonable proposal. If you speak something nonsense, that "I exist," why he, does he bring the word God, if God does not exist? God is there, but He denies the existence. That is atheism. Otherwise, why bringing the word God? If God does not exist, why he is bringing the word God?
Śyāmasundara: Another difficulty with Bertrand Russell is that his philosophy changed. Many times throughout his life he changed his viewpoint.
Prabhupāda: That means he does not know what is philosophy. Philosophy cannot be changed. Just like āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam—the four principles of life—eating, sleeping, mating... (aside:) Sit down here.
Devotee: I was watching the (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: All right. So they are eating—where is the change of philosophy? Eating philosophy is there. Sleeping philosophy is there. Why it should change? What is fact, there is no need of changing. Imperfect knowledge changes. Perfect knowledge never changes. So he changes philosophy means his knowledge is imperfect.
Śyāmasundara: But it's relative. He says it's relative, good and bad.
Prabhupāda: Then he was a madman. (laughter)
Śyāmasundara: From his point of view, he said it was good that he went to jail.
Prabhupāda: Madman always thinks like that. (laughter)
Śyāmasundara: He said that values like good and bad lie outside the domain of knowledge, that they are simply venting of emotions.
Prabhupāda: That outside means it depends on the verdict of somebody further up. Is it not? He does not come to that point?
Śyāmasundara: No. He doesn't come to that point. No. He says it's all relative, good and bad.
Prabhupāda: No. He says... What does he say?
Śyāmasundara: He says that values like good and bad lie outside the domain of knowledge, that they are simply emotional.
Prabhupāda: Outside the domain of knowledge, so that means it depends on the verdict of God. If God says, "This is good," then it is good. If God says, "This is bad," then it is bad. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So if you surrender unto Him, that is religion. And any religion which does not teach to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is not religion. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa can say sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66)? Any religion which does not preach to surrender to the Supreme, that is not religion.
Śyāmasundara: It seems like these two philosophers have two different viewpoints. The first one, Huxley, said man can take nature into his own hand and mold his own evolution.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense.
Śyāmasundara: Whereas this philosopher thinks that we should just..., that the vital force is guiding everyone and creating its own evolution, that we should just drift in the course of things and the vital force will determine history or will determine our future.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vital force will determine. That is somewhat...
Śyāmasundara: Without our doing, without anything of our doing.
Prabhupāda: No. Vital force must know how to make progress how to do it. Then he'll be... If he does not know how to do it, how it will be possible? Can you do anything? Suppose you are learning some mechanical business, can you do it without direction? You have to learn. You must get a teacher. So without teacher, that is not possible.
Hayagrīva: Now Aristotle would say that the flower is real because it has its basis in the ultimate reality, God.
Prabhupāda: That..., how God can be not in knowledge? He is full in knowledge. That is God.
Hayagrīva: Plato would say that the flower is a shadow of reality, a perverted reflection of reality. So which point of view would be...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is... When the flower is in the material world..., material world is perverted reflection of the spiritual world. That's a fact. We have got experience that material things are created, but in the spiritual world things are not created; they are already there, everlasting. So it appears Aristotle has no knowledge of the spiritual world.
Hayagrīva: Aristotle defines God as pure form and pure act and purely nonmaterial. He is absolute spirit and is the unmoved mover.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is absolute spirit, there is no doubt upon it, but why He should come to know Himself through material world? That is defective.
Hayagrīva: But...
Prabhupāda: His energy, you cannot say nothing. Energy exhibited.
Hayagrīva: That energy is eternally existing with Him.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes.
Hayagrīva: So, that's different, that's a different viewpoint.
Prabhupāda: Not viewpoint. Energy must be there. God, if He hasn't got energy, then how He is God? Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport), He has got multi-energies. So this is one of the energy exhibited. So you cannot say from nothing. God is everything.
Hayagrīva: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Hayagrīva: (indistinct) Again, like Augustine, Aquinas believed that sin and man go together due to Adam's, the first man's original sin. All men require salvation. Salvation can only be attained through God's grace. The individual living entity has to assent by his free will in order for God's grace to function.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is bhakti. Bhakti is devotional service. So you, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Brs. 1.2.234), and bhakti is our eternal engagement. So salvation means when you are engaged in our eternal activities, that is called salvation, or liberation. When you are engaged in false activities, that is called māyā. Muktir hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. Muktiḥ means to remain in one's own constitutional position. In the material world we are also engaged in different types of activities, but they are with reference to the particular body. In the spiritual world spirit, as he is, is engaged in the service of the Lord. That is liberation.
Prabhupāda: So he is..., he does not believe..., there is no belief in God is there? There is no question of? No. But our point of view is different: that God is the ultimate decider of everything. That is called daiva-netreṇa. He may be acting through different agents, but ultimate decision is given by Him. And He is sitting in everyone's heart. He is observing the activities of the individual soul as witness, giving permission. Without God's permission, nobody can act. So He is giving intelligence also, and He is the cause of forgetting. Two things are there, remembering and forgetting. Both these things are coming from God. If He keeps him in forgetfulness, then he cannot remember, and if He gives him the power to remember, he can remember for long, long past activities. So ultimately God is the final director. That is our conception. Man cannot remain independent. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Everything is being done, impelled by the three material modes of nature, and the ultimate dictator is the Supersoul, or the Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect, situated everywhere in the heart of the living entity, or even within the atom He is there, and His is the supreme director.
Hayagrīva: He draws a distinction between atheism and positivism. He says, "Atheism, even from the intellectual point of view, is a very imperfect form of emancipation, for its tendency is to prolong the metaphysical stage indefinitely by continuing to seek for new solutions of theological problems instead of setting aside all inaccessible researches on the grounds of their utter inutility. In a word, atheism is still concerned with studying the 'why' instead of the 'how,' and positivism, true positivism, is concerned with the 'how' instead of the 'why.' " In other words, he felt that religion quo religion, religion as religion, had best be set aside because religious questions are basically childish. They can never be answered. So atheism is rejected because atheists "occupy themselves with theological problems and yet reject the only appropriate method of handling them." And for him the only appropriate method is to forget the whole thing.
Prabhupāda: So how can he forget? Atheism will help anyone to improve his position? Just like death. Atheist, if he does not believe in God and God sends him death, how he can counteract it? He has no power to counteract it. We understand from Bhagavad-gītā that death is God for the atheist. Atheists do not believe in God, but God comes to him as death to convince him that "Here I am." So how the atheist can avoid? How it will improve his present situation by atheistic speculation? So how the atheist can become independent? That is not possible.
| Page Title: | Point of view (Lectures, Other) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 10 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=57, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 57 |