Prabhupāda: So if you are not this body, how he is your son? In this way you go on. As soon as you study nicely that you are not this body, you will find that you belong to none of these. You are free. You see? This is called Brahman realization, spiritual realization, this stage, when you understand that "I am not this body. I do not belong to this country. I do not belong to this family. I do not belong to this society." This is negative. Some philosophers are trying to make these things void. But actually I am existing. I am existing in misunderstanding. But that does not mean I am not existing. I am not void. Just like I am existing within this apartment. But instead of knowing myself, I have identified this apartment: "myself." So to simply to understand that "I am not this apartment" is not perfect knowledge. Then what is my position? What I am actually? When we come to that consciousness... At the present moment, I am conscious of this body, of this country, of this society, of the family. But when I perfectly understand that I am not any of these things, then my consciousness also changes because at the present moment my consciousness is absorbed with all these things.
Perfect knowledge (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"perfect knowledge"
|"perfected knowledge"
|"perfection of acquiring knowledge"
|"perfection of knowledge"
|"perfection of our knowledge"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: ...Personality of Godhead, who stops our struggle for existence and raises to the platform of eternal life, bliss, and knowledge. To be more clear, everyone is trying to get eternal life. The whole human society is trying to get the highest perfection of knowledge, and they are trying also, by so many methods, to become happy, blissful. But they are being confused and baffled. Therefore if we take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, these things will be easily achieved.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (1): Accept, I accept everyone. That is no question of accepting or...
Prabhupāda: No, no, your... I have summarized that first of all you have come to inquire from us that our standard of knowledge is Kṛṣṇa. If you accept Kṛṣṇa as the standard of perfection of knowledge, then there is possibility of our talking. Otherwise simply waste of time. Why shall we waste our time? Our standard is Kṛṣṇa. If you are agreeable to accept the standard of Kṛṣṇa, then there is possibility. Just like here is a lawyer. He goes to the lawyer. He speaks, he pleads, on the standard of the lawbooks. If somebody comes, "No, no, I don't accept this," then there is no question of argument. Both the lawyers are arguing. The central point is the lawbook. So you must have a central point on which we shall talk. If you have no central point...
Guest (1): Central point of happiness is there now.
Prabhupāda: But, generally, if I'm not in perfect knowledge, if I guide you, that is, according to Vedic version that is cheating. You must be confident of the knowledge perfectly. Then if you deliver the knowledge that is right. Just like our position is that we say what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa is God. So we say what Kṛṣṇa says. We don't say anything which does not Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa does not say. Therefore you are confident that we are delivering the right message. We don't manufacture our own philosophy or words. We simply say, "Kṛṣṇa says, 'sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66).' " Kṛṣṇa, God, says that you simply surrender unto Me, I take charge of you. We are preaching the same philosophy. That you surrender to God and you'll become happy because God takes charge of you. We don't manufacture our word. That is not cheating.
Prabhupāda: So your student has to follow your instruction. That means accepts authority.
Dr. Weir: But even so, even if he's working something out for himself, it has that same..., to some people it comes terribly easily.
Prabhupāda: No. No. To accept authority does not mean one should be blind. But the real source of knowledge comes from authority.
Dr. Weir: You then reject the idea of a fear of God.
Prabhupāda: No, I don't reject. The thing is that perfect knowledge is received from the authority which… beyond the material defects.
Dr. Weir: No, what I mean is, fear is not necessary for learning from an authoritarian source.
Prabhupāda: No, authority must be perfect. Then otherwise the knowledge is not perfect.
Prabhupāda: The significance..., there is no significance. These professional Bhāgavata readers, they make money from the public because public wants to hear all these things. Just like we read a novel-a woman is embracing a man, or kissing or having sex. They like it. Therefore they go the Bhāgavata Tenth Canto immediately. Their Bhāgavata reading is professional, not understanding of Kṛṣṇa. If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then go step by step, one by one. First of all read Bhagavad-gītā, try to understand, and you surrender to Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa says, then you enter. Just like after passing entrance examination you enter into the college. Similarly, when you are qualified in accepting Kṛṣṇa as all in all, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66), then you enter into Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata is the graduate study, not ordinary study. But these professionals, they take advantage of the weakness of the people, and they make profession and earn some money. That's all. When we speak of Bhāgavata we speak from First Canto, Second Canto, Third Canto..., the nine cantos to understand Kṛṣṇa. Just like in First Canto the beginning, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, janmādy asya yataḥ. This is Vedānta-sūtra verse. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa for perfect knowledge, then you'll understand what is kṛṣṇa-līlā. (end)
Prabhupāda: Answer? Any one other?
Devotee (2): Perfect knowledge cannot be received with imperfect senses. Only through perfect senses can perfect knowledge be received.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it should be concluded that the so-called scientists, astronomers, they are all imperfect, and they are passing off the scientists as learned. So you can challenge them, "What is the guarantee that your knowledge is perfect?" Actually it is not. They do not know how the stars are moving. They are always imperfect. Simply putting some theories. They say all this, Darwin's theory and this theory, that theory. They are simply speculating on imperfect senses, and therefore they're cheating, because the conditioned soul has got a tendency to cheat others. If one can cheat others, he thinks himself as very intelligent. The conditioned souls, they commit mistake, they are illusioned, they cheat, and their senses are imperfect. This is the, the four condition. Therefore, if we receive knowledge from the conditioned soul, there is no possibility of getting perfect knowledge. If by nature you are cheater, then how I can expect fair dealings? It is to be understood that we cannot have any fair dealings with this conditioned soul. And he'll protest.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Because He knows everything. A scientist means one who knows a subject matter thoroughly. He's scientist. Kṛṣṇa, He knows everything.
Bob: You said... I told you I teach science. You had said something about teaching, or teaching of science.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Teaching, unless you have got perfect knowledge how you can teach? That is our proposition.
Bob: Without perfect knowledge, though, you can teach what knowledge you have.
Prabhupāda: No, that is cheating. That is not teaching, that is cheating. Just like the scientists said, "There was a chunk, and the creation took place, perhaps..." What is this? Simply cheating. It is not teaching, it is cheating.
Prabhupāda: That is stated by Kuntī.
Bob: Without perfect knowledge, can I not teach some things? For example, I may...
Prabhupāda: You can teach up to that, which point you know.
Bob: But should not claim to teach more than I know.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is cheating.
Yaśodānandana: In other words, you can't teach the truth...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Yaśodānandana: ...you can't teach the truth with partial knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not possible by any human being. Because any human being, his senses are imperfect. So how he can teach perfect knowledge? Just like you see the sun like a disc. You have no means to approach the sun. If you say, "We can see the sun by telescope and this and that," that is also made by you. And you are imperfect, your instrument is imperfect. Because that telescope you can say that you are seeing, but that machine is made by you, and you are imperfect. How your machine can be perfect? Therefore your knowledge of the sun is imperfect. So you don't teach about sun unless you have got perfect. That is cheating.
Bob: But when you have some knowledge of God, then life is not so miserable.
Prabhupāda: No, some knowledge will not do. You must have perfect knowledge. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Tattvataḥ means perfect. That perfect knowledge is being taught in the Bhagavad-gītā. So, we are giving chance to the human society to learn Bhagavad-gītā as it is and make his life perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What your science says about the transmigration of the soul?
Bob: I think that science cannot deny it, by scientific methods cannot deny it, or does scientific method show it. Science does not know of it.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, imperfect science.
Bob: Science may, though, say something. It is said in science that energy is never destroyed. It is just changed.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but how the energy is working in future, that science does not know.
Bob: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Goodness means you can understand things. Knowledge. You can know that there is God, that this world is created by Him, and so on, so on, so many things, actual things. The sun is this, the moon is this, perfect knowledge. Even not perfect, he has got some knowledge. That is goodness. And passion means he identifies with this material body. And he tries to gratify his senses only. That is passion. And ignorance means animal life. He does not know what is God, how to become happy, "why I am in this world." Just like you are taking one animal to the slaughterhouse, it will go. But a man will protest. So this is ignorance. The goat, it is to be killed after five minutes, but if you give him a morsel of grass he's happy, he's eating. Just like a child. You are planning to kill her or kill him, he is happy, he's laughing, because innocent. That is ignorance.
Guru dāsa: If I was the Western government and you handed the most perfect knowledge to me, I would knight you also, in the name of myself. Certainly I would knight you.
Prabhupāda: So Rādhā-kuṇḍa Mukerjee, he has supported cow slaughter. He was given a post, made a parliament member first of all. So this poor man, five hundred rupees per month, he accepted. Then he induced that "You take more money, write like this." So if you pay money... British government's whole policy was that if the Indians are kept strict Hindus, it is next to impossible to govern them. So therefore they adopted this policy. They changed the whole policy how the Hindu will think everything mentioned in the śāstra is nonsense. They have trained up, and Nehru is the first-class trainee. Everything mentioned in the śāstra, the Arya-samaj, they also wrote Saptartha (indistinct), so many. And Dr. Radhakrishnan also. All the scholars, they would never mention any śāstra more than once within one thousand years. That means...
Dr. Kapoor: Otherwise they would not be scholars.
Prabhupāda: No. Otherwise they will not be scholars.
Prabhupāda: Perfect knowledge.
Devotee: Perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Is it not?
Martin: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: You do not know what is the meaning of science?
Martin: No, I don't.
Prabhupāda: Then why you call science? How do you call "This is scientific"?
Martin: I can only give you my definition of science. Science is that endeavor of human beings by which they attempt to find out why things happen and how they happen.
Prabhupāda: That means perfect knowledge. Ah, I am seeing that this rose flower is growing, but I do not know how it is growing. If I know perfectly how it is growing, that is science. We know that, how it is growing. Bījaṁ māṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 7.10). The seed of this rose tree is Kṛṣṇa. All kinds of seeds are Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, from one seed you find a tree is growing from which a perfect rose of yellow color is coming. And another tree, a perfect rose of red color is coming or variety of color is coming. The seed is different. Otherwise the earth is the one, the water is the one, but because the seed is different, therefore different plants are coming and different results are coming. But the seeds are Kṛṣṇa. This is our observation. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create in your laboratory the seed of... What is that tree?
Prabhupāda: That, that we'll have to find, find later on. First of all the principle should be accepted that unless we hear from the perfect person, our knowledge is imperfect. First of all you have to agree to this point. Therefore you are going to your schools, colleges, universities, because at home who could learn everything? So why you are going to school, colleges and universities? That is not possible. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that in order to know that perfect knowledge, one has to approach the proper person, who is know as guru.
Guest (1): That's what I was getting at.
Guest (2): (aside) Could I ask a couple of questions now?
Devotee: Please. Yes.
Guest (2): Swami, please, I don't want to interrupt. I want to try and ask you a few questions (indistinct). I'm with (indistinct). Swami, what do you think accounts for the..., your popularity, popularity of the..., the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement sweeping America?
Prabhupāda: Because it is not due to my personality. I am presenting the truth as it is. It will appeal. Just like if you prepare some foodstuff with nice ingredients, it will be appealing to everyone, and if you prepare something obnoxious, it may be appealing to a certain section, not to all.
Prabhupāda: When we speak of Kṛṣṇa, we mean God. Everyone has some vague idea of God, but no clear idea. Therefore God descends to show what He is. If we speculate on God, someone will think one thing and another person will think another. This is the result of speculation. But if God Himself comes and shows Himself as He is and speaks about Himself, that is perfect knowledge. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading that message. God Himself is speaking about Himself: "I am like this; I am like this; My form is like this; My activities are like this; My address is this and that—if you like you can come back to Me. This is the situation. Everyone can come to Me." All this information is there in Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. In Bhagavad-gītā God speaks about Himself and presents Himself as He is. We have simply to take that information; then we can understand God. As soon as we understand God, we can go home immediately.
Prabhupāda: Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, the same. Kṛṣṇa means Viṣṇu-tattva. So Viṣṇu-tattva has many forms. So any Viṣṇu form will do.
- rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan
- nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu
- kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo
- govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
- (Bs. 5.39)
Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu. He has got different forms, Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, many other forms, Govinda, Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa. So rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā niyamena tiṣṭhan nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu, kṛṣṇaḥ svayam (Bs. 5.39). Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). These are the Vedic statements. And Kṛṣṇa also said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore to become wise after many, many births of struggling or cultivating knowledge, when one comes to perfection of knowledge he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That's all. (indistinct) beyond the sky there is another sky (indistinct) and we are trying to go there according to the perfect knowledge (indistinct). (break) ...of knowledge is misunderstanding, so how they can get perfect knowledge? If you begin from mistake, misconception, then where is your perfect knowledge? The beginning is this body. Beyond this body, they have no knowledge. Their rascal knowledge..., this rascal knowledge, how they can help you? Anything, suppose any mathematical calculation, if the beginning is wrong, then how you will come to the right conclusion? What do you think?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, when the...
Jayatīrtha: In logic, if the hypothesis is wrong then the conclusion is wrong.
Prabhupāda: The hypothesis is always wrong.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If the starting point is wrong, then there is nothing...
Prabhupāda: Then there cannot be any perfect knowledge. So the modern so-called scientists, philosophers, their starting point is wrong. Just like a great scientist... Darwin is a scientist?
Prabhupāda: It is a fact. Just like this child is transmigrating from one body, one kind of body to another body. So in the same way, when I give up this body I transmigrate to another body. This is the science. Unfortunately, there is no university, no education, no culture of this great science. Therefore according to Bhāgavatam, the knowledge is imperfect. The knowledge which are imparting from universities, they are not perfect knowledge. And this human form of body is the opportunity to understand the position of the soul and how he is transmigrating from one body to another, what is happening next. In this way, in this human form of body, we can understand this science, science of soul. Unfortunately, no education is there to understand this science. So in other words, it may be taken that the modern civilization is killing the prerogative of the human being. He has got a chance to understand himself and to stop. He can stop this repetition of birth and death. He can remain in a spiritual form in the spiritual kingdom or with God, but these things are unknown to him, because there is no discussion in any university or any institution of knowledge. Although the Vedic literature gives us ample information of this—in the the Bhagavad-gītā, that is the preliminary study of all Vedic literature—but there is no chance for the people to understand.
Prabhupāda: Once I was invited to speak in that institution, MIT. So I questioned, "Where is your department of technology to understand the difference between dead body and living body?" So I spoke on this. So the students appreciated. After my lecture, they gathered around me. How do you explain? What is that technology, why the man is dead? Science is simply based on this bodily concept. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13).
Indian man: But about body also they don't know anything.
Prabhupāda: That also they have no perfect knowledge.
Indian man: About matter they say... (indistinct) has written a book in which... (end)
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Therefore in another place, it is stated, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), "After many, many births, when actually becomes wise, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate, he surrenders unto Me." That is the perfection of knowledge. So this is... The Bhagavad-gītā is the only source of scientific knowledge of God and our relationship with God. I am very glad that you are already very serious about understanding Bhagavad-gītā. But I request you only that try to... and understand Bhagavad-gītā without any, our man-made interpretation. That will be my request.
Guest (2): What is one thing that I would like to...
Prabhupāda: And we are always ready to help you in this.
Guest (2): Yes, thank you for this. What I wanted, that if you will be able to help us...
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, oh yes.
Guest (2): ...in establishing, for example, that Gītā meeting for some...
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect. That is called poor fund of knowledge. And as soon as we accept law-maker, we have to accept that He's a person, He has got brain. Therefore He can make laws. Just like the great ocean is working, but there is a law. It cannot come here. Although there is potency. At any second it can cover the whole city But there is a law. Just like state laws. Up to this. No more admission. You have to stop. Similarly, there is law of God. Where there is order: You mighty ocean, you cannot come beyond this. This is law. There is sun. "You must rise at half-past, at five o'clock in the morning." "Yes, sir." This is law. "You must rise on the Eastern side." "Yes, Sir." Not whimsically. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side, sometimes that side. Cannot do whimsically. That is law of nature. And behind the law of nature, there is the order-giver, law-maker. This is perfect knowledge. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My superintendence, the laws of nature is working." This is intelligence.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The remote cause is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1). Vedic literature: sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam. The cause of all causes. That is remote cause. Therefore if you understand the sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), the cause of all causes, then you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you know the original cause, the later, subordinate causes, you know. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). You do not know the original cause, and when we say... "We say" means when the Vedas says: "Here is the original cause," you won't take it. Although you are searching after the original cause. Is it not? But when Veda,... Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. But when gives you: "Here is the original cause." You won't take. You shall stick to your imperfect knowledge. This is your disease. Is it not a disease?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are proud because they do not see the reality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are fools. The same philosophy. The pot man is thinking of becoming a millionaires, pot. By thinking so, he has become millionaire. So these fools are like that. Thinking that in future they will make all solution, they are presenting themselves as perfect scientists. That is their foolishness. Our proposition is: "First of all you prove that you are, you are millionaires. Then talk of all this nonsense. You cannot prove, and still why you declare yourself as scientist?" Scientist means one who has got perfect knowledge. Is it not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is scientist. But you haven't got that. But why you...? You are punishable. Just like if somebody is not a bona fide medical practitioner, but he gives: "Doctor M.D.," he's punishable. There are so many bogus. They are not detected. But if they are detected, they are punishable. If you say that: "Yes, I am a student, I am not a scientist, I have no full knowledge," that is right. You have no perfect knowledge. Still you say "There is no God." How is that? You have no perfect knowledge. How do you say there is no God. Eh? They say there is no God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So if they admit they have no perfect knowledge, how they can say there is no God, or there is God? They cannot say.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very doubtful.
Prabhupāda: Doubtful. That means not perfect knowledge. So how they can say that there is no God. They can say: "Yes, there may be or may not be. We do not know." That is a gentleman. How they can say there is no God? And people are misled. "Oh, such and such scientist has said there is no God. Therefore there is no God." He does not know that he's a perfectly foolish. His statement has no value. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21), because he has posed himself as a very big man, people follow him blindly and they're misled.
Śyāmasundara: So we see in the creation of God, it also traces back to the Creator.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation means the Creator. Just like when I see the picture of so many sculptor. So who has done it? I come to David. To appreciate the creation means you have to come to the point, appreciating the Creator. Otherwise, it is not finished. Or your knowledge is imperfect still. So these scientists, they are simply trying to study the creation. They have no knowledge about the Creator. That is the defect. Neither do they try, neither they can understand. They are so foolish and poor fund of knowledge. They should try to understand the Creator also. Then the knowledge is perfect. Just like the scientists, they are theorizing that life began from matter, chemicals. But wherefrom the chemicals came? That is insufficient knowledge. They say, "Chemicals existed." Now, we have no such experience... Just like we ate some purīs. Purīs had to be created. Not that existed. It is existing, but when I require, I have to create it. The crude example. The chemicals, wherefrom the chemicals came? That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā. In this way you have to study. Simply to study the creation, that is imperfect knowledge. When you come to the Creator, then it is perfect. Just like if you see simply his sculptures, so many things, that is not perfect knowledge. Why this book is "David Wynne"? Now, you go to the creator. And ...the all appreciation is there, credit is given there. That is perfect. Otherwise, you see, so many stones are there, figures are there. But when you study that "This is the creation of such and such artist, sculptor, and he's such and such," then that is perfect. Study him.
Śyāmasundara: Just like by my knowing David, it's very easy to understand his sculpture.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: But someone who's just seeing his sculpture, they don't know what...
Prabhupāda: That is not perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: They don't know what he's like.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not perfect knowledge. Perfect knowledge is when you understand the creator. What do you think?
David Wynne: I think yes. I'm not sure that the analogy..., I think that the greatest... Well, it is true because with the greatest sculpture, one does get to the full understanding, but if one really understands the universe, well, one would see God, I suppose.
Prabhupāda: No.
David Wynne: No.
Prabhupāda: You have to penetrate. You have to understand who has created this universe.
Śyāmasundara: But you're saying that it's better to first penetrate and understand God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Then understand the universe.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: Before understanding, trying to understand God by His universe.
David Wynne: And science almost denies the existence of God in order to exist, doesn't it?
Prabhupāda: That is a rascal. These rascals say like that. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is rascal number one. Immediately. And anyone, he may be a great scientist or philosopher, let him come. If he says that "I don't believe in God," then I shall prove that "You are rascal number one." That I shall prove.
Śyāmasundara: We'll bring you some scientists.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So many scientists, psychologists, philosophers came to me.
Mr. Wadell: But one has to believe the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, if the process is perfect, one has to believe, one has to believe. Just like I will give you one example: Nobody knows who is his father; neither it is possible to know one's father by speculation. But there is a process. If you ask your mother, and if she: "This gentleman is your father," you accept the process and you get the perfect knowledge.
Mr. Wadell: One could look like one's brother. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: What. I do not follow. What is...?
Mr. Wadell: You do not understand?
Śyāmasundara: Say it again.
Mr. Wadell: I have a brother, who is very like me, and, well, this helps me to believe that I know who my father was.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prabhupāda: Therefore our Vedic injunction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Tad-vijñānārtham, in order to clear the doubt, to be in perfect knowledge, one must approach the authorized bona fide spiritual master.
Mr. Wadell: Can we go back to the physician. It is possible for a physician to be wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we are always in wrong because we are born ignorant. Everything is wrong because ignorant, foolish. Madman's conception. This is all wrong, childish. Therefore we send our boys, children, to school, to correct the wrong ideas.
Mr. Wadell: But some of the teachers may not be correct.
Prabhupāda: No. The process is you have to go to the teacher. But if the teacher is a cheater, then the whole thing is spoiled. A teacher must be teacher, perfect teacher. But if he happens to be a cheater then the whole thing is spoiled.
Mr. Wadell: I agree, but I am using this in, as an example, not as an absolute description. I think my view—may I explain this—of the whole of which I am, as I say, I think, an imperfect part, a part which is trying to learn something which I am not even quite sure what it is that I am trying to learn...
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is... You are perfect gentleman, means that you say that "I am imperfect." That is nice. But our point is that from imperfect man, imperfect knowledge is received. We cannot expect perfect knowledge from imperfect man.
Mr. Wadell: No. But where does your perfect knowledge come from and how do you recognize it?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very important point, where to get the perfect knowledge. That is wanted. That is intelligence. Therefore the Vedas says, gurum eva abhigacchet: "You go to a guru." "Guru" means heavy, who knows better than you, or who knows perfect. That is injunction.
Mr. Wadell: But, you see, this is...
Prabhupāda: We have to find out, we have to find out who can give the perfect knowledge.
Mr. Wadell: How do you know that you know? May I ask this? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
very difficult, whatever kind of faith you have.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of faith. Faith may be wrong, belief may be wrong. That perfect knowledge can be received from the perfect source. So God is perfect. God is perfect. And one who follows the path of God, he is also perfect.
Mr. Wadell: But he is different from God, is he not?
Prabhupāda: Maybe. Just like...
Mr. Wadell: But this is important to me. Can, can...?
Prabhupāda: The same process. The mother gives the perfect knowledge, and the son receives the knowledge. So the knowledge received from the mother by the son is perfect. The son may not be perfect, but because he has received the knowledge from the mother, which is perfect, therefore he is perfect.
Mr. Wadell: In what respect do you consider yourself different from God?
Prabhupāda: Do you think I am also equal with God?
Mr. Wadell: If you, what I want to know is what you feel your relationship to God is.
Prabhupāda: My relationship is just like father and the son. The son is not different from the father; at the same time, he is different from the father.
Lord Brockway: Oh, I approve of it very, very strongly. Very strongly. It must be... It must be the basis of all, of all good.
Prabhupāda: No, basis... Now, suppose if a people in general, they are not advanced, by their votes, somebody is elected, he may not be also advanced. That is the defect of democracy. Mass of people, they are not advanced. So simply by their vote, if somebody is elected, then they will have to repent. Just like Nixon. He's elected, but these people are again decrying him, that "No, you are not good." So why do you, did you elect him? You elect, and again you reject. That is the defect of democracy. that people are not advanced. They can commit mistake, elect somebody wrong. And then they will lament. This is the defect. But monarchy, as it was approved by the Vedic culture, the monarchy, if the king is first-class, God conscious... A king should be like that. That is the ideal king. They are described in the Bhagavad-gītā: rājarṣi. The king should be just like saintly person, although he's king. Rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). And just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. He was rājarṣi. All the kings in those days, they were trained up in such a way that they were saintly persons, although they were the king. Not debauch. So one person, if he's authorized... Just like the communists, they are thinking of dictatorship. This is also another kind of dictatorship. But if the dictator, or the king, is a perfect man, then his dictatorship or royal power is quite... But that, that is not possible at the present moment. But at the present moment, the democracy is also not perfect. Because the mass of people, they have no perfect knowledge. By sentiment. So it may be they're electing a wrong person. That is the defect of democracy.
Prabhupāda: That means... these rascals, they have simply imperfect knowledge. Still, they are leader. That is our protest. That why you become leader? You have got so many imperfections. Why you are cheating people? That is our protest. You have no perfect knowledge. Still, you become leader. Why? Why you are cheating men like that? Just like the professor who was speaking that by four, combination of four chemicals, life has come. And as soon as he was challenged that: "If I give you these four chemicals, whether you can produce life?" He said: "That I cannot say." Then what is the use of speaking like that? So they're cheating, and people are being cheated. Still, they're given Nobel Prize. "Oh, here is a big man." They'll talk all nonsense. At, at the same time, they'll become professor, teacher. And people will accept. So at least let us protest against this system.
Prabhupāda: That means his knowledge is not perfect.
Guru-gaurāṅga: His knowledge is not perfect, and like us, he is simply trying for perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: So unless you have got your goal perfectly known, how you can make progress? (break)
Guru-gaurāṅga: ...their organization is the guru, and their whole organization knows the ultimate goal which they can attain.
Prabhupāda: And he is part of that organization. He does not know.
Guru-gaurāṅga: He says that evolution of man which is the goal of this order is something that is mystical. It is not scientific, that it is so easily...
Prabhupāda: That means it is pale. It is not distinct.
Prabhupāda: So imperfect senses can give imperfect knowledge. That is not scientific knowledge. What you are thinking scientific knowledge, that is bogus. Because the man who has given that knowledge, he's imperfect. How you can expect perfect knowledge from the imperfect person?
Guest (2): It's a question of degree.
Prabhupāda: Now, degree may be, but ultimately, if you are unable to give perfect knowledge, then what is the use of taking knowledge from you?
Guest (2): Yes, I accept that view. But how do you prove that a man...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore you take from the perfect, Kṛṣṇa. We take from Kṛṣṇa's representative. One who speaks as good as Kṛṣṇa. That is our process. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). We don't take, don't accept knowledge from any rascal. We accept knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. I may be rascal, but because I am receiving knowledge from the perfect, whatever we speak, that is perfect. A child may be innocent he does not know. But he has learned that this article is called spectacle. So when he says, the child says, "Father, this is spectacle." This is perfect knowledge. Similarly, if you hear from the perfect and act accordingly, then you are perfect. Now Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. After death there is another body. So we accept it. It doesn't require any proof of so-called science who's imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Unless we accept the real leader, a perfect personality who can give us perfect knowledge, there is no success. That is our philosophy.
tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet,
- samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham
- (MU 1.2.12)
- tad viddhi praṇipātena
- paripraśnena sevayā
- upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
- jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
- (BG 4.34)
We have to approach a person who has seen the truth in reality. Then our life is success. That is the Vedic injunction. And that is fact. Unless we are... Just like you are teacher, a professor. So therefore people are coming to you to learn. How can you say that he can follow his own philosophy? He's coming to school, college. He's taking lesson from the teacher. One has to follow. The selection may be right or wrong; that is another thing. But one has to select.
Professor: Well, one has to acquire knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Eh. Yeah. Therefore, if we have to acquire knowledge, we must go to a person who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned. There are four defects in the conditioned soul: to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat others, and imperfectness of senses. One may declare himself that he's perfect in knowledge, but his senses are imperfect. So how he can call himself that he has got the perfect knowledge by speculative method?
Professor: Hm.
Prabhupāda: The instrument which he is using for speculation, that instrument itself is imperfect.
Professor: Well, normally our knowledge will be imperfect in some way or...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Professor: Normally our knowledge is imperfect in one way or another.
Prabhupāda: How it is perfect?
Professor: Im...
Haṁsadūta: Imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right, you get something, but that is not perfect.
Professor: No, but of course, there are different kinds of knowledge and...
Prabhupāda: No, our principle is to get perfect knowledge from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's above these defects. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni ca... (BG 7.26). Find out this verse.
Pradyumna: Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you find out that verse: bahūni me janmāni vyatītāni tava cārjuna.
Prabhupāda: He does not know. The apartment does not change. The owner of the apartment goes from one apartment to another. That he does not know. Therefore he's cheating. He does not, he has no perfect knowledge, and he's cheating. Cheater. He does not know. The soul, from the monkey's body is coming to human body. That is nice. Not that the monkey's body is changing into human body.
Dr. Hauser: But some of this cheating, as you call it, must have, have still been a great use to mankind because it has not been proven at the time when this theory has been evoked by some scientist, it has not been proven that he's right, but he works according to this principle that he has got, and then later...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is explained in Bhāgavatam that in the jungle one big animal is the leader of other animals. That's all. But they're animals. Is it not?
Dr. Hauser: But I don't really understand.
Prabhupāda: In the jungle, in the forest,...
Dr. Hauser: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He said that there is no God, but he's God. Just like the policeman sometimes cheats. He goes as a gambler, but he's a policeman. So that is another thing. Therefore if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you understand all these different activities. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. And you become liberated. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ. If anyone understands what is Kṛṣṇa, why He comes, what His activity is, then tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, you, after giving up this body, you haven't got to come again in this material world. Simply by studying Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are preaching, "Simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...life is meant for to possess complete knowledge of the Supreme. That is perfection of knowledge. That is possible in the human form of life, not in the life of cats and dogs. That is not possible. So we have got this opportunity. If we spoil this life, living like cats and dogs, then we are missing the opportunity. This is the opportunity to understand Kṛṣṇa, God.
Guest (1): Your business is not to prove or disprove, but to glorify Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. By your knowledge. If you are scientist, you are chemist, through chemical challenge you try to glorify the Supreme Lord. If you are physicist, from physical point of view, try to explain. If you are scientist... Anyway, because ultimate... Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Any knowledge, that is... You have to approve the Supreme. That is real perfect knowledge. And at the present moment men of knowledge they are rejecting. Because they cannot explain, they are rejecting. They do not bother.
Guest (1): Modern science has cleared the deck very much for religion. They are not so dogmatic as the old scientists used to be.
Prabhupāda: What do they say now?
Guest (1): Well, you see, the modern scientific discoveries have led to the stage at which the science can no more say that religion is humbug. Now they say, "Well, we do not know. Honestly speaking, that is the position," they say.
Prabhupāda: That is good.
Prabhupāda: By knowledge... Because it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there. So anything which is accepted in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual thing.
Umāpati: In perfect knowledge, would the first step be faith that it is offered to Kṛṣṇa? One may, may make an offering without being...
Prabhupāda: Well, he must learn under superior direction. Otherwise, how he can offer?
Umāpati: Well, he may make an attempt. There is a natural impulse to serve, a natural impulse to offer in man, and he may not be aware that he is seeking Kṛṣṇa in his conditioned state. Then, if...
Prabhupāda: Then whom he's offering? If he doesn't know Kṛṣṇa...
Umāpati: That is his ignorance. If he is seeking.
Prabhupāda: Then, if he's in ignorance, what is the value of his offering?
Umāpati: I did not hear the last point.
Hṛdayānanda: If he's in ignorance, what is the value of the offering?
Umāpati: That is true.
Hṛdayānanda: He needs a spiritual master.
Umāpati: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything in ignorance.
Prabhupāda: I see. So... Oh, you have no seat? They are giving him? All right. So from Bhagavad-gītā we understand that Bha... Just like in this planet we are so many persons, or the President Nixon is the President. Similarly, in every planet there are living entities, and the President of the sun planet is called Vivasvān. So he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa long, long ago. In the higher planetary system, the time is different. That was proved when the Russian aeronautics were on the sky. In one hour twenty-five minutes, he went round the earth, twice or thrice, like that. So time is different. So the point is... Just like the sunshine is impersonal, the sun is localized, and the president of the sun globe is a person, similarly, the Absolute Truth is realized in three phases. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The first realization is impersonal, then localized, and then personal. So ultimately, God is person. And that is Kṛṣṇa. So we are hearing directly from the Supreme Personality of Godhead about Godhead, and that is perfect knowledge. If you speak yourself about yourself, that is my perfect knowledge of yourself. And if I simply speculate that "Professor may be like this, like that," that is not perfect. I am speculating, but if you come to me, "Swamiji, I am like this," then my knowledge is perfect. Otherwise, I can go on speculating for millions of years. Still, my knowledge is imperfect. So we cannot manufacture God; neither we can speculate. That is not possible. But you can get some idea, but there is no possibility of getting perfect knowledge of God.
Prabhupāda: And what is that? Good morning. Hare Kṛṣṇa. There are three stages. First stage of understanding is direct perception, by senses. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find. Here, from the material platform, our source of knowledge is direct perception. That is crude, pratyakṣa. It is called pratyakṣa. That is crude knowledge, direct perception. Just like I am seeing the sun. I am getting some idea of the sun, but that is not the perfect idea, although I am seeing it daily. I am seeing just like a disc, but it is very, very big. So my direct perception cannot give me perfect knowledge. The first... Besides that, at our present stage, material condition, we are imperfect because we commit mistake. By direct seeing the sun, I am thinking that it is just like a disc. Then we are illusioned. We, sometimes we accept something for something. Then, with this imperfect knowledge, we try to become teacher. That is cheating. And at the end, our senses are imperfect. So with so many imperfectness, how we can get perfect knowledge? What is your answer?
Professor: I have no answer.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, our speculative knowledge, intellectual platform, is not helpful. We must receive knowledge from superior source, perfect source. That knowledge is perfect. Just like we give, generally this example, that to find out who is my father, my search out, research, will not help me, but if my mother says, "Here is your father," that is perfect knowledge because she's authority. Therefore, for perfect knowledge, we have to take it from the perfect authority, not by our speculative intellectual gymnasium. No, that will not help. Because our intellectual jurisdiction is very limited. That is Vedic process. Vedic process is not to acquire knowledge by ascending process, inductive process.
Prabhupāda: They have so many things. They simply speak like rascals. Therefore our conclusion is: Anyone who does not know what is God, he is a rascal. That is perfection of knowledge. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). These rascals, they do not know that all knowledge is imperfect unless he comes to the platform of knowing God. All knowledge imperfect. And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad..., bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "When he (is) actually wise in knowledge, then he surrenders to God." That is knowledge. That is knowledge. One who has surrendered to God, one who has known God, one who is abiding by the order of God, he is the perfect man. All others, they are rascals.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: A man of knowledge.
Dr. Patel: And knowledge means this knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Yesterday only you said that in the course, this thing.
Prabhupāda: That is perfect knowledge. Harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21).
Dr. Patel: These are, these are joking him, hearing (?) this, you know. Tāny aham... Uh. Not. What is that? What is the word of that śloka? (break)
Prabhupāda: ...janma paraṁ janma vivasvataḥ. Katham etad vijānīyām. (break) ...May, June.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) Yes, May. Mirage in May and also in June. They want to report the... May, June, he has... (break)
Prabhupāda: The interpreters do like that.
Dr. Patel: May and June.
Prabhupāda: May and June.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Artha-darśanam.
Dr. Patel: Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. When you have perfect knowledge of the tattva jñāna.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is tattva-jñāna. This is jñāna. This is jñāna. Basic principle of jñāna is ananya-bhakti-yogena. That is the basic principle of jñāna. Then other things will automatically come.
Dr. Patel: Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā.
Prabhupāda: Therefore... Therefore in other place in Bhāgavata: harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. If one is not pure devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. That is not possible. Because here is also same thing. The basic principle is devotion. If that is lacking, then all this show, humbug, it has no meaning.
Dr. Patel: No, that is, we have said about the jñāna... (break) ...paraṁ brahma na sat...
Prabhupāda: Now, who is that paraṁ brahma? That Kṛṣṇa. Because Arjuna says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma... (BG 10.12).
Satsvarūpa: To imagine that God has a form. Man imagines God, not that God exists originally, but man imagines God based on his own form.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anthropomorphism it is called. They create a form, but that is not the fact. God has His eternal form. That I explained. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (Bs. 5.1). Vigraha means form. And it is sac-cid-ānanda, means eternal, full of knowledge and... Just like Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā. People are accepting, because that is real knowledge. And nobody reads other books so carefully. And this Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world. All big, big scholars, big, big philosophers, theologists, they read. Because that is real knowledge. That is the proof. It is real knowledge. Cit. Sac-cid. And one who is giving real knowledge, it is natural conclusion, he has got eternal body. We cannot give real knowledge because we forget. As we change our body, we forget. Just like at night we dream, but we forget the body, this body. In another body we go to some dreamland. So because we change body therefore we forget. And because Kṛṣṇa is giving knowledge perfect, past, present and future, therefore it means that He has got eternal body. This is the proof. One should understand everything with logic. Is it not? We forget because we have no eternal body. Last birth, what I was, what you were, we have forgotten, because changed body. Death means forgetting. So because Kṛṣṇa is giving perfect knowledge of past, future and present, therefore it is to be understood that He has got eternal body. And eternal body means there is no misery. Misery means janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), to take birth, to die... (aside:) (Hare Kṛṣṇa.) And to suffer from disease, to suffer from old age. These are the miseries. So because Kṛṣṇa hasn't got this temporary body, therefore He is not suffering from these things. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, you will see always, young man. You will never see Kṛṣṇa's picture as old man, because He is eternal body. This is the conclusion.
Satsvarūpa: Then the next question is where do you get your knowledge. Like that boy asked in the airport.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Go to guru. Guru. Yes. (indistinct) Who is guru? Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham: who has heard from the Vedas perfect knowledge and who is fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is guru. Everything is there. Immediate answer is tad-vijñānārtham. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This life is for inquiring where shall I go for knowledge? Athāto brahma-jiñāsā.
- tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet
- samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham
- (MU 1.2.12)
Everything is there. When they were building this costly skyscraper, they forgot that this skyscraper will be the same fate as there were big, big Roman buildings two thousand years ago. Because I will have to leave. Although the building is very solid, it will not be destroyed within five thousand years, but you are not going to live here for five thousand years. You can live for fifty years sir. Then go away. Then it will be relic. That's all. So why don't you make guarantee, that "I have made this strong building to stand for five thousand... Let me live also." Where is your that knowledge? This is illusion.
Prabhupāda: So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is... Especially in the western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma-Purāṇa, there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, statement that "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "Perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No. 900,000 specifically.
Prabhupāda: Geneva, there are varieties of living entities and also houses and mountains. So two things, animate and inanimate. One section, animate; another section, inanimate. So we are small gods, or īśvaras. We may control the government and the management of the street and parks and everything, but we are controlled by the supreme. As supreme God, the supreme controller is not controlled by anyone. I am controlling, but I am being controlled by somebody else. That is God. So therefore we have to admit, we must admit that we are not free. We are controlled. Eh? By superior power or superior controller we are controlled. Therefore our duty is to be controlled according to His desire. So if we agree to be controlled by the Supreme, that is perfect life. And if we do not like to come to be controlled by the supreme, that is sinful life. And this is the perfect knowledge.
Paramahaṁsa: Yesterday, in your lecture, you mentioned how in this age it's very difficult to remain chaste or free of...
Prabhupāda: Yes, but one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's all right. Teach him Sanskrit and English and let him read our books. Then perfect knowledge. He doesn't require to go to school. And so far mathematics and history concerned, everyone knows. Two plus two equal to four. It doesn't require much education. Even illiterate man who has never gone to school, he can also count. Eh? "How much money you are giving me?" He doesn't want to be cheated. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma... So the fact is God cannot be unknown. If you are actually serious to know God, God can be known. This is no argument, that "God cannot be known."
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That is putting limitation on Kṛṣṇa, to say that you cannot see.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That is putting a limitation on Kṛṣṇa if one says that He cannot be seen.
Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa... Of course, you cannot challenge Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa, if He likes, He can reveal Himself to you. Therefore, you can know God. Just like Kṛṣṇa reveals. He comes and He... (aside:) Don't... He reveals Himself. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). So when man forgets, so He comes, reveals Himself. And He leaves behind Him the Bhagavad-gītā, knowledge about Him. So where is the difficulty? He comes when you forget Him, and He leaves behind Him the knowledge by which you can understand. Where is the difficulty?
Bhagavān: Then we can ask, "What is that great?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are doing! You can understand very easily. Just like you want money. You are in need of money, but you have no sufficient money. So greatness means he has more than sufficient money. That is greatness. Suppose you are weak, and if He is like you, no. He is unlimitedly stronger than you. You have got knowledge, but not perfect knowledge. But He has got unlimited knowledge. In this way you can understand greatness. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He understands the point.
Prabhupāda: Greatness should be understood, comparing my position. We can understand, "This man is greater than me. He is superior than me." That we can understand. Similarly, we can understand. Just like we human being, we are floating, flying one biggest airplane, 747, and we are thinking we are very wonderful, but that great is floating millions of planets in the air. But the foolish man cannot see the process. He can see that a pilot is floating this airplane, so there must be one big pilot who is floating all these things. But he cannot see. Therefore he says, "Nature." So he cannot see.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, it is.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So thing is that, first thing is that you have to believe, but whom to believe? If the person whom I believe, if he is perfect, then my belief is perfect. And if I believe a person who is not trustworthy, then there is no meaning of this belief. Therefore we have to find out the person or the statement which are to believe. That is accepted in the Vedic culture, that the knowledge in the Vedas, that is perfect. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). If one is perfect in Vedic knowledge... Veda, Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. So that belief is perfect. Just like we are believing Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the perfect, the supreme perfect. So far we Indians are concerned, there are ācāryas, just like Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya. Actually these ācāryas are controlling the Indian culture. So all of them are unanimous to believe Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect person.
Professor Durckheim: Just as Buddha is not a name.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Because He's man of knowledge, therefore He's called Buddha.
Dr. P. J. Saher: The one who has reached...
Prabhupāda: Buddha. Buddha means one who has perfect knowledge.
Professor Durckheim: Buddha is not a name of somebody, yes.
Prabhupāda: Just like you say, "Hallowed be Thy name." President. President. Now the president has a name but you do not know. But the president must have a name. (German)
Dr. P. J. Saher: Has the name a special esoteric meaning? And is the technique of chanting the name, has this a special hidden purpose that the unenlightened...
Prabhupāda: No, not hidden but open because Absolute is not different from His name. Therefore when you chant the name of the Absolute that means you associate with the Absolute. And as soon as you associate with the Absolute you become purified.
Dr. P. J. Saher: We have a similar thing in the Christian (German).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti, that is bhakti. (German) (break) Kali-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say, "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says, "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this." Is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united, but they're increasing flags. That's all. Fighting, it is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam. It was meant for unity but it is rendered into fighting association. That's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, anyone should give his perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: We... Our work is on that platform, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara tatha dehāntaram (BG 2.13), dehina, not the deha, dehi. We are not working on deha. Deha means body. And dehi means the owner of the body. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is about the activities of the owner of the body, not the body. But the whole world is going on on acting on the body. That is the difference. Therefore it takes very, very, long time to understand. Those who are thinking, "I am this body..." One who knows that "I am not this body; I am soul, spirit soul," then his spiritual education... They do not know what is spiritual education. What do they mean generally, spiritual education?
Satsvarūpa: Some religion, knowledge about one of the religions or nowadays meditation, like that.
Prabhupāda: Meditation? What is the ultimate goal? That means no perfect knowledge. The so-called meditation is very popular, but what meditation? What is subject matter of meditation? You can close. It is closed?
Satsvarūpa: Close the blinds? There's a draft coming in, but the windows are closed.
Prabhupāda: Not closed. Yes, now it is closed. Just make it point three. It is on two. That's it. (long pause) (break)
Satsvarūpa: ...have to strain the juice from this mango?
Prabhupāda: And did you do it?
Satsvarūpa: No.
We are kept within this, and the superintendent is Durgā. Therefore Durgā's picture is ten hands, ten directions with different kinds of weapon protecting. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā, icchānu... (Bs. 5.44). Now the conclusion. Icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā: "She is working not independently, according to the desire of somebody else." Who is that somebody? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **: "That is Govinda. I am worshiping Him." And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā.
- mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
- sūyate sa-carācaram
- hetunānena kaunteya
- jagad viparivartate
- (BG 9.10)
What is the use of...? Why should we go to research? Everything is there. Our position is very safe. We get the perfect knowledge without wasting our time. We take from Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Finish. We know everything. Just like so many scientists, so many psychology, psychiatrist, and religionist, they come to me, but I am neither of them. I never was a scientist nor I am a psychologist nor a psychiatrist nor this or that. But I speak on the strength of Bhagavad-gītā; I defeat them. It is practical. So many people came to me but nobody went unharmed.
Prabhupāda: Because we are getting perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa.
Madhudviṣa: Their question may be, what would you advise them to do...
Prabhupāda: That... This, this boy, Svarūpa Dāmodara. He has written this book, hearing me, hearing me, hearing me... (break) ...addition, alteration. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, no addition, alteration. The same thing. As soon as there is addition, alteration, it is gone, finished.
Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, aren't you presenting Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to time, place, and circumstances?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: So what enables a person to do that?
Prabhupāda: No... But principle is that you try to understand that you are not this body. That is applicable in all time, all circumstances, all, for everyone. It is not that formerly one had to learn that he's not this body, and now that is not required. The same problem is there still. Arjuna, five thousand years ago he was given lesson about this, that "You are not this body; you are soul." The same problem is now also for the foolish person because the foolish person will always remain in the world, and the intelligent man is to teach him. This is fact always, without any consideration of time, space, and circumstance. There will be certain class of men, foolish, and there will be certain class of men who are intelligent.
Bali Mardana: So they only end up with a conditioned truth, a relative truth.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you are not conditioned, the more your finding out truth is perfect. But it is not possible for you to become completely unconditioned. That is not possible. That is mukta puruṣa, liberated. Therefore we have to take knowledge from the person who is not conditioned. That is perfect knowledge. And one who is conditioned, what is the value of his giving knowledge? So therefore we don't accept any knowledge from the conditioned souls. Conditioned soul is imperfect by the four deficiencies. Bhrama, pramadā... He must commit mistake. So what is the value of his knowledge? There is no value. We take knowledge from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is unconditioned. There is a verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata: eṣad īśānām īśasya. That is God. God means He becomes, He comes within this material world, but He's not conditioned. That is Kṛṣṇa.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (4): Lord Kṛṣṇa says in Gītā that, to Arjuna, that when Sūrya is uttarāyana, people who die, they'll go to Candraloka, and come back.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you quote that. Then it is perfect. You don't require to make research. Your research is no good because your senses are imperfect. I have no proper vision. If the light is stopped, I cannot see. This is the position of my eyes. So what is the use of my seeing? It is conditional. So one who is conditional, how he can give perfect knowledge? One who is not conditional, he can give perfect knowledge. Therefore we have to approach somebody who is not conditioned. Then we get perfect knowledge.
Guest (5): I have great difficulty with the meaning of the term "perfect knowledge." Could you...
Prabhupāda: Perfect knowledge means what you say, it is correct. There is no mistake.
Guest (5): Under any and all circumstances.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfect knowledge, not like the scientists. They changes: "Yes, it was this. Now it is now changed." This is not perfect knowledge. They simply change. Therefore we say, mūḍhās. Perfect knowledge is that what you say, that is correct forever. That is perfect. Just like man dies. If somebody says, "Man dies," it is perfect knowledge. It is correct forever.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But first of all, the basic principle is we have to understand that our senses are imperfect, and whatever knowledge we gather by these imperfect senses, they are imperfect. So if we want perfect knowledge, then we have to approach somebody whose senses are perfect, whose knowledge is perfect. That is the principle. That is the Vedic principle. Therefore the Vedic principle says, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You know Sanskrit, yes. "In order to know that perfect knowledge, one should approach guru." So who is guru? Then the next question will be... Your question is that, "How I can?"
Guest (1): How can I know that...?
Prabhupāda: That I am coming. That I am coming. Guru... That is next line. It is said, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Guru means who has properly heard the Vedas, śruti. Śrotriyam. And as a result of his hearing he is firmly convinced in the existence of the Absolute Truth, God.
Professor: One of the sources of knowledge or the only one?
Prabhupāda: No, that is the only one. There are others; they are subordinate. But the śabda, knowledge received, śabda, through śabda, śabda-brahman, that is perfect knowledge. Just like the same example: beyond this wall I cannot see, but if somebody there says, "This is the position here"—the sound comes—that is perfect. You cannot see what is going on, but if somebody says, sends radio message or any message, sound, then you know. Therefore śabda-pramāṇa, śabda, knowledge received through śabda, that is perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: You have to understand... I have already said that we have got our imperfect senses. We cannot understand. But we have to understand from a person who has got perfect knowledge.
Professor: But why existence of all these things?
Prabhupāda: So? Why? Then the answer will be: "Why there shall not be existence?" First of all you answer this. If you question like that—"Why there is existence?"—then I shall inquire, "Why there shall not be existence?" Therefore the decision should be taken from the Absolute. Your question, my answer, will not solve. If you say, "Why there is existence?" I can ask you, "Why there shall not be existence?" And who will decide this?
Guest (1): If I may something, this basic question, I suppose, may be asked only on the level of all religion, all philosophy, which does not put a line of division between practice in life...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): Let's just say I would like to ask a question in this way. We don't doubt what you said, the assumption that individual ego is eternal and also subordinate to that which is eternal, hierarchically higher, nevertheless is the part of that which is the eternal reality. And that is (indistinct) that which you later developed. Question, sir: Is this statement what you made, a statement of fact based on direct perception, or it is something what follows traditional belief and is just the axiomatic basis of your philosophy or similar other philosophies of axiomatic basis.
Prabhupāda: No, this is axiomatic basis because you have to accept that your senses are imperfect. So you, by speculation, cannot have perfect knowledge. This is axiomatic truth.
Guest (1): With that epistemological truth, all right we may go along, and, as a matter of fact, doubt about the truths of direct sensual perception is the basis, one of models of scientific activity.
Prabhupāda: Direct perception...
Guest (1): My question is, rather, this statement, this basic statement about eternal ego and so on, is a statement which you somehow give to us as revealed message, something what is...,
Prabhupāda: Yes, revealed.
Professor: No, I said old tradition in India has been going on into argument itself.
Prabhupāda: No, argument you can go on, but if you want to know the truth it will not be attained by argument because argument is also within your thinking power: thinking, feeling, willing. So if your thinking, feeling, willing is imperfect, what is the use of your argument? What is the use of your so-called advancement of knowledge? Basically, if the senses, knowledge acquiring senses, are imperfect, then how you can get perfect knowledge?
Professor: Well, then what do we with all techniques, all systems, that have been developed? I am thinking only India, I am not thinking other places, and all the old tradition, since Śaṅkara onwards, of different ways to think, to study, to go deeply to all these relations between...
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara has interpreted. Śaṅkara has interpreted by his limited knowledge. So that is not perfect knowledge. Therefore we don't accept Śaṅkara's philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Individual, we are part and parcel. The same thing: the supreme eternal, and we, means subordinate eternal. We are of the same quality. Quality is the same but quantity different. Therefore our knowledge quantity and his knowledge quantity different. Therefore we should take knowledge from Him, who has large quantity of knowledge. We have got tiny quantity of... This is the difference. He is also cognizant, I am also cognizant, but his knowledge is vast, unlimited; my knowledge is tiny. Therefore, if I want to know more, we should know from Him. That is perfect knowledge. Tad-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). This is the process.
Professor: May I ask a personal question?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Professor: I heard that you were a chemist before.
Prabhupāda: I was not chemist, but I was manager in a big chemical factory. Therefore, automatically, I learned something of chemist. And later on I started my own chemical factory.
Prabhupāda: Puruṣottama Sarasvatī? No, my Guru Mahārāja was Sarasvatī, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī.
Professor: Oh, Bhakti... So that's the same line, no?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That receiving the perfect knowledge... There is paramparā. Just like I have got perfect knowledge. I tell you. Then you get the perfect knowledge. You tell him. This is called paramparā.
Professor: I read something like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Evam paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Without that paramparā the knowledge is not perfect. Give them prasāda. Hm?
Hṛdayānanda: We're going to bring you some prasādam? Spiritual food.
Professor: You are traveling all Latin America now?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have traveled all over the world in eight years. Eight years? From 1967, eight years. So eight years I have traveled around fourteen times or more than that. No, twice in a year, almost.
Guest (1): The question is, well, Vedic idea that knowledge, human knowledge, is imperfect, does that not then go along... Of course, we are limited by, all time by biological limitation and so on. But this statement, that there is perfect knowledge, that it can be acquired, and that there are some people who did acquire it, that's very strong statement indeed, and my question is of the practical nature. How one can know that given source of supposed spiritual truth is an actual truth? Is there any technique how one can get to it?
Prabhupāda: That I have already said, that you take the vibration from the Vedic knowledge and you experiment it. Observation and experiment, that is scientific. So first of all observation and then experiment. And when you are satisfied by experiment, then it is perfect knowledge.
Guest (1): If I am satisfied? Can I rely that much on myself?
Prabhupāda: Anyone can do, provided he knows the art how to do it. It is a technique also. You cannot make experiment as a crude man. You must be expert. But it is... In our Caitanya-caritāmṛta you'll find that there is a statement, caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra: "Just try to make an experiment on the mercy of Lord Caitanya." Vicāra karile citte pabe camatkāra: "When you make an experiment, then you'll be awe-full 'Oh, it is so nice.' " So it is not to be accepted blindly.
Prabhupāda: No, we must first of all understand that our senses are imperfect. Just like we are sitting in this room. We have got our eyes, but we cannot see what is there, going on, beyond this wall. The sun is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth, and we are seeing just like a disc. So the eyelid is just near the eyes, but we cannot see what is the eyelids. If the light is off, we cannot see. So we can see under certain condition. Then what is the value of our seeing? If we, even if we manufacture telescope, that is also manufactured by the imperfect senses, so it is also not perfect. So anything understood by manipulating our imperfect senses, that is not real knowledge. So our process of understanding real knowledge is to take it from the person who has the real knowledge. Just like if we contemplate or speculate who is my father, it is never possible to understand who is my father. But if we receive the words from mother that "Here is your father," that is perfect. Therefore the process of knowledge should be not to speculate but to receive it from the perfect person. If we receive knowledge from a mental speculator, that is not perfect knowledge.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): What would be the mechanism or process to get this perfect knowledge and to purify our senses?
Prabhupāda: First of all we have to accept this truth, that perfect knowledge can be received from the perfect person. Just like I have given the example, who is my father. You can understand it from the perfect person, mother. If somebody speculates, "This gentleman may be your father, this gentleman may be your father," that is not perfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is with the mother. Mother says, "Here is your father." That is perfect knowledge.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he accepts that we can receive perfect knowledge, but then because I am imperfect I make an imperfect interpretation.
Prabhupāda: No, you are not allowed interpretation. As soon as you interpret, you become imperfect. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Don't interpret. Before this, all these rascals were simply interpreting and spoiling the whole thing. So this is the fact.
Professor: So what you really are asking for is blind faith.
Prabhupāda: Not blind faith. Perfect man is perfect. Unless you understand that he is perfect, don't hear from him. That is blind. Without knowing that he is perfect, if you hear, that is your imperfectness. Why should you try to hear from a person whom you do not know perfectly well that he is perfect?
Hṛdayānanda: Can I translate that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you hear blindly, that is your imperfectness. You must be first of all convinced that. "The person from whom I am hearing, he is perfect." Then your knowledge is perfect.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, that you have to search out such person. Otherwise your knowledge is imperfect. Now that question will be: "How to find out such person?" The next question will be. But unless you approach such perfect person, you cannot have perfect knowledge. That is a fact. Therefore the conclusion is that we should not speculate about perfect knowledge, but we should try to approach the perfect person and receive knowledge from him. This is the conclusion.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's more or less saying that in the Catholic church how they also demand the same type of faith. He said they all have a bad experience with that. And then he more or less...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I can understand. The thing is that everyone can take advantage of this statement that "I am perfect." Just like so many rogues and bogus persons come. But it is your duty to know whether he is perfect. It is your duty to test whether he is perfect. That requires intelligence. If you unintelligently accept some bogus person as perfect, that is your fault. You must be assured that "The person from whom I am asking, he is perfect." Then you take it. Otherwise don't take.
Prabhupāda: That is not knowledge; that is art. Just like electrician. He knows how to mix the two wires and bring the current. That is not knowledge; that is a business or art for temporary recreation. And because he knows the art how to bring the current, it does not mean that he knows the Absolute Truth. So people are taking at the present moment electrician as the knower of the Absolute Truth.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he thinks that the knowledge that you're giving is perfect because it is perfect knowledge and not because you are giving it. Because it is revealed knowledge, perfect because it is revealed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyone can take it. Just like we are giving knowledge of the Bhagavad-gītā. So the Bhagavad-gītā is open for everyone; it is not for me only. It is for you also. That is our movement, that you take the perfect knowledge and be happy and make your life successful.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): So he said one thing is to understand theoretically the knowledge, and the other is to practice it. What is the method for...?
Prabhupāda: Everything is there. All questions solved, economic, social, religious, politics, whatever you are-plus transcendental knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Well, when there is question of knowledge, only you will find a few people to get the knowledge. When you put this question, "Find out some learned scholar," generally they will be very... Their number will be very little. But one thing is that if there is one man in real knowledge, he can give the..., distribute the knowledge to many. The example is just like ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ: If you get one moon at night, that is sufficient to dissipate the darkness. And there are millions of stars—it is useless. So it is necessarily not required that everyone should be in perfect knowledge. But if one man is in perfect knowledge, hundreds and thousands can hear from him and they can perfect(?). So it does not depend on the quantity; it depends on the quality.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that just like you give the example of the dictaphone, but it seems like if he just recorded the knowledge within his brain and then repeated it, that he would just be like an instrument, and he might not really be conscious of the knowledge himself. He'd just be transmitting it. It seems like... He thinks that's a defect because he's not really, he might not be conscious.
Prabhupāda: No, he doesn't require. Just like I am working with this dictaphone. I am not a mechanic, but my business is going on. That is required. I have read the instruction paper, that "You use this microphone like this. You put this button," and three, four instruction. So I have learned it and it is giving my business. That's all. Just like this lamp, the instruction is "Push this button," (flicks light button) and it will go, all on. So I know I will get the light. Now I am not electrician. It doesn't require. That much knowledge is sufficient. But I want the light. So the electrician says, "Just put this button in this way. Light will be there." So my business is finished.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. It may be by time. Suppose a child, he can say, "I am now foolish for the time." But he is foolish at that time. That is not argument, that this child expects to become an M.A. That does not mean he can say he is M.A. at that time. So you cannot make time. Unless you are perfect in knowledge, you cannot say that you are in knowledge. Time, everyone has got the chance. In time he will be in perfect knowledge. That is not... There is no disagreement. But so long he is imperfect, he must admit that he is imperfect. Now, a businessman, a small businessman, he is trying to become millionaire, and if he says, "I will become millionaire in time," that does not mean he is millionaire. He must first of all become millionaire. Then he should claim.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): If he accepts that he is imperfect, what experience qualifies him to talk about God?
Prabhupāda: That I have already discussed, that you have to go to the perfect and take his experience. And then, gradually, you become a perfect.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): So then everything would be an act of faith, simply to believe.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, not believe. You just corroborate it with your experimental knowledge, and you will find it is right. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that...
Professor: Excuse me.
Hṛdayānanda: He says that in order...
Prabhupāda: No, he wants to say something.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that in order to do any activity it requires some motivation. And so therefore one gets this realization by practicing, but it seems like someone would have to be a special person with something inside him in order to have the determination to practice it, in order to go ahead to try to get the realization.
Prabhupāda: Yes that is required. There must be determination, and whatever knowledge you get, that must be for practical use. Now, just like in the Bhagavad-gītā... Shall I speak? That he says that the proprietor of the body is within the body. Now, you make your thoughts working on this, that what is that proprietor? And you find that actually this body is not the proprietor, but body is the property, the proprietor is within the body. Then your knowledge is perfect. Then your thoughts, your reasoning... You accept the statement of Kṛṣṇa that the proprietor of the body is within the body. That is knowledge, perfect knowledge. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is perfect, but you corroborate with your reason, with your experimental knowledge, and you will find that is perfect. Then it is perfect.
Prabhupāda: There is no solution. There is no solution. You have no solution for anything, so you have increased your problems. Without perfect knowledge, you'll simply increase your problems. That's all.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How can we get this perfect knowledge and how can we practice it if we're like prisoners?
Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. You have to go to the perfect person.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said first of all that he asked you to give evidence, but that you did not. You said that you'd have evidence, but you did not give it.
Prabhupāda: Here is evidence. I have said that Kṛṣṇa says the proprietor lives within the body. Now you just try to understand and you will find that yes, this body is not the... This is a property. The proprietor is within. That is perfect knowledge. Just like a big mill going on. But if somebody does not find out the proprietor, then does it mean that there is no proprietor?
Professor: I am the owner of my own self.
Prabhupāda: You are the not owner, but you are occupier.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the Bible is there: "You become good like this." If you don't do, then you become bad. The Bible says that "Thou shall not kill." If you don't kill, then you are good. If you kill, you are bad.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said there is no guarantee of perfect knowledge because at one time we had perfect knowledge, but as you said, we threw it away. So therefore...
Prabhupāda: No, no, you misused the perfect knowledge. Just like here is perfect knowledge: Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." You are misusing, you are killing. That is your fault.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He wants to know if we are born good and then we learn the bad thing?
Prabhupāda: No, so long we have got this material body—you are born good or bad, but when you do not get this material body—you remain in your spiritual body—that is good. Just like...
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said, "So no one can be born bad, but by contact with humanity he becomes bad."
Prabhupāda: Then make the humanity good.
Prabhupāda: There are life manifestation, according to Vedic literature, that some of the life, they are coming from eggs, some of the life, they are coming from perspiration, some of the lives come from a seed, and some of the life comes from embryo. This is all stated there. Sveda-ja, udbi-ja, aṇḍa-ja, jarayu-ja. They already there. Jarayu means embryo, and sveda means perspiration. Life is everywhere. When they take little advantage, they come out, manifest. You will find even on the pavement, footpath, as soon as there is crack, some grass is coming out. So life is everywhere, it is struggling, and as soon as there is favorable circumstances, they come in a form. That's it. Life is not created, na jāyate. Read Bhagavad-gītā. Na jāyate: "Life is never created." It is existing eternally. Therefore it is said, na jāyate. So unfortunate rascals, they do not take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and making research. So we want to stop this rascaldom. They are trying to create life, and it is stated in the Bhagavad..., na jāyate: "It is never created." It is already there. Simply it is coming out, being manifest by different bodies, 8,400,000 forms. That I was explaining last night. According to his desire. The life is already there, and according to his desire, he is coming out in different forms. That is going on. This is a false theory, that chemical can create life. It is nonsense. Life is never created, life is already there. God is already there, and the part and particles, molecules, life, was already there. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. This word is used, kadācit, "at any time." So we have got perfect knowledge. Why should we say, "Yes," with these rascals? We have got perfect knowledge.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is the defect of the scientists. They only see the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their defect. Therefore asses, go-kharaḥ. That is defined. Anyone who takes the body as the self, he is a go-kharaḥ, animal. And that is our protest, that "You are animal; you are passing as very learned scholar, scientist." That we want to protest. We want to expose them, that they are cheating people. They have no perfect knowledge; still, they are passing as scientist and big men and... That is our protest.
Mādhava: Can we say that the living entity is there, and that he is the one that makes the molecules and the atoms come together to form a body just like the scientists give explanation? No? We can't?
Prabhupāda: No. Because the living entity is there for the formation of his body, so many things are going on, action and reaction of the matter. That's all. That is depending on his desires. It is so subtle thing. He is desiring, and action, reaction is going on. And as soon as the living entity is not there, these action and reaction will stop. So they are trying to find out the missing thing. That missing thing is the living entity. That they do not know, foolishly. Just like a motorcar is running very nicely, and as soon as the driver goes away it stops.
Guest (1): Everything comes from the mother earth. We are in very short supply of things.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No shortage. That is everything supply. You have got the Vedic knowledge. You don't take care of that. You now manufacture your own knowledge. Now there is knowledge, this Bhagavad-gītā is perfect knowledge, but even a political leader like Gandhi, he says that I don't believe that there was anybody like Kṛṣṇa living. This is your leader. All the ācāryas, previous ācāryas, big, big ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, big, big, stalwart, learned, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa. Now Gandhi says, "I don't believe." Now you are guided by Gandhi, you are not guided by the ācāryas. That is your misfortune. You are not guided by Kṛṣṇa. You are guided by Dr. Radhakrishnan. That is the misfortune. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31), one blind man is being, is following another blind man. That is going on. That is going on all over the world, not only in India.
Guest (1): That we believe in.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are not perfect. We can speculate only and that is not perfection. "Maybe," "perhaps," like that. No definite knowledge. The definite knowledge you can get from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect. Therefore all the ācāryas accept Kṛṣṇa. We have to follow the ācāryas, ācāryopāsanam. So in India all these ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, they accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme absolute. Why you should not? Are you more than these ācāryas? Then? That is the defect of modern education, they manufacture education although they're imperfect. They have no the common sense that "I am imperfect, how I am manufacturing education and becoming teacher. My becoming teacher is cheating because I have no perfect knowledge." Knowledge means it must be perfect, not "maybe," "perhaps." This is not knowledge. Definite knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Some... That is something, then there's no perfect knowledge. That is not perfect knowledge. It is... Everyone knows the cow does not take any protein food, it takes on the grass.
Guest (1): Grass is quite rich in protein.
Prabhupāda: Then you take, why you are searching after protein?
Guest (1): Because we cannot digest the fibre in it.
Prabhupāda: Then? Then it is not suitable for you. Therefore nature's arrangement is that protein can be produced through the body of the cow.
Prabhupāda: He says that "All of you, you become guru." Just like I am requesting all Indians outside that I am alone trying to spread this Indian culture, why not you also join? You also become guru. So how to become guru? Not that simply by advertising that one has become guru all of a sudden, no. Guru means, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Whomever you meet, you just instruct him in what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all. You become guru. It is not very difficult to become guru, provided we simply preach the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. That we are doing. We do not say that we are perfect, we have become God, or we have so many, so many magic jugglery. No, we have nothing to do, that. No magic, no jugglery, no God. Simply to become servant of God, and whomever we meet, we speak the words of God, that's all. Then you become guru. This is our mission. That we may be imperfect, that doesn't matter. We are imperfect. Just like this child, he is imperfect. Everyone knows. But if he says, "My father has informed me that this is microphone," so this knowledge of "is microphone" is perfect because he has received from the father, experienced father. And before hearing from the father, he may not know that this is microphone, but since he has heard from the father that this is microphone, and if he says to others that "My father has said, 'This is microphone,' " then people will accept this is perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Sarvam etaṁ ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava: "My dear Keśava..." Keśava, the another name of Kṛṣṇa... "Whatever You have said I accept them cent percent." Sarvam etaṁ ṛtam. Ṛtam means fact, truth. This is understanding. So if we accept in that way, then our knowledge is perfect. And if we accept in a different way... Just like Gandhi says that "I do not believe that Kṛṣṇa ever lived." Just see. He does not believe in the ācāryas. All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, they have written big, big comment on Bhagavad-gītā, even Śaṅkarācārya. He does not believe anyone. He believes himself. And that kind of belief is not help. And our process is: because Kṛṣṇa has been accepted by all the ācāryas, all the great sages, Arjuna has accepted—we accept, that's all. We have no difficulty. If I am child, I ask my father, "What is this, my father?" The father says, "My dear child, it is called coconut." Then, if I distribute this knowledge, "This is coconut," then my knowledge is perfect. I may not be perfect, but because I have heard it from my father, who is perfect about the knowledge of this fruit, so I have taken that word from my father, and I am preaching, "This is coconut," and this is perfect. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is like that. We are simply repeating the perfect statement of our predecessor. That's all. So there is no difficulty. We haven't got to write thesis on Kṛṣṇa. The perfect knowledge is already there. And supported by the ācāryas. And we are simply submitting that "This is Kṛṣṇa. This is God." That's all.
Carol: Is it possible to carry out that enquiry while you're engaged in activities?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real enquiry. Wherefrom my life has begun? What is the ultimate goal of my life? Why I am put into these conditions which I do not like? Who is enforcing? These things should be asked. That is the proper enquiry of the human being. And we cannot solve the question of birth, death, old age and disease, and you are theorizing something utopian. What is the use of such advancement of knowledge? I live for fifty years and sixty years, and the Darwin's theory they are calculating gap of millions of years. There is a gap of millions of years, and we will live for fifty years. How we are taking calculation of millions of years? Speculation simply. And misleading people. An honest man should not mislead others. He should understand that his knowledge is limited. How can I say something theorizing? That is not very good business. And misleading people. I have no perfect knowledge. I am theorizing. What is the use? I have no actually accurate knowledge, and I am theorizing. I am misleading people. Big bluff. That is going on. An honest man should not take part in big bluffs. First of all you must have accurate knowledge, and I am theorizing. I am misleading people. Big bluffs. First of all you must have accurate knowledge. Then you bring knowledge to others. That is our proposition. First of all make your life perfect, then you try to give knowledge. If you have no knowledge, vague knowledge, not definite knowledge, then why should you try to give knowledge to others?
Carol: Can you have perfect knowledge?
Prabhupāda: What?
Carol: Can you have perfect knowledge,...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Perfect knowledge you can immediately, provided you take knowledge from the perfect. If you receive knowledge from a bogus person, then how you can have perfect knowledge? Knowledge has to be received from a person. Why shall I go to a school, college, teachers, guru? To receive knowledge. So if your teacher, guru or parent, those who are your superior, if they are perfect, then you get perfect knowledge. But if your teacher is a bogus, then you get bogus knowledge.
Carol: And this is immediate, is it?
Amogha: She says is this immediate, the reception of perfect knowledge?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are giving knowledge from Bhagavad-gītā. This is perfect knowledge. You take it; you become perfect.
Carol: And your actions are perfect actions?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Amogha: And your actions are perfect actions?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find—you have read Bhagavad-gītā? No.
Carol: Mmm.
Prabhupāda: It is said, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. Think of God. So we are doing this. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa—we are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. THe direction is there, and we are doing that. Therefore my action is perfect. If the physician says that you take this medicine in such and such dose, you don't do this, and do this. If I follow, then I'm cured, perfect.
Prabhupāda: Just like a child. Child assumes that my father is perfect. So, actually a father should be perfect at least for the child. So whatever the father, mother, gives him knowledge, that is perfect. Father says, "My dear child, this is called 'table.' " The child does not know what is table, but he understand from his father. He says, "This is table." So when the child says it is table, it is fact. This is perfect. He may be imperfect, his child, but because he is repeating the perfect knowledge of his father, whatever he is speaking is perfect. Because he has received the knowledge. Actually the child inquires from the father, "Father, what is this?" Father smiles at child, "This is called bell. If you push your hand in this." Then you get the perfect knowledge. He tries it. Oh, it is coming. The knowledge is there. He may be imperfect, but the instruction he has received, that is perfect. Similarly, if you get instruction from the perfect, then your knowledge is perfect, and if you receive knowledge—just like anthropology—from an imperfect person, Darwin, then whole thing is imperfect. So why should we waste our time in imperfect knowledge?
Carol: Because there are few people around us who think they are perfect.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, that people want to be cheated, so I shall be perfect cheater. (laughter) That is another thing. And take my doctorate title, being a perfect cheater.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of belief. It is a fact. It is a fact in this way, that Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9)—that's all. You have to see through Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Kṛṣṇa says that a such and such person devotee, after giving up this body, he does not accept. That is seeing. Kṛṣṇa says and you see. Just like you believe me. A child believes the father. Similarly, if the authority is there, then you see by his word, that's all. That is knowledge. Seeing by perfect knowledge—that is seeing. Not by endeavoring with these imperfect senses. That is not knowledge.
Paramahaṁsa: But in this modern age...
Prabhupāda: Modern age means all rascals and fools. So we haven't got to follow the rascals and fools. You have to follow the most perfect, Kṛṣṇa.
Paramahaṁsa: The problem is that everyone is cheating. Everyone is presenting some knowledge of this or that...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have accepted Kṛṣṇa, who will not cheat. You are cheater, therefore you are believing cheaters. We do not cheat, and we accept a person who does not cheat. That is the difference between you and me.
Prabhupāda: Believing, that is one thing. Believe in father. Everyone has got father. But if you do not know who is your father, what does he do, then that is not perfect knowledge. It is a fact: without father, nobody is born. So even your child has not seen who is her father, but it is a fact that there is a father. But she or he must know who is he, what is his nature, what does he do. And that is perfect knowledge. Simply to know "I have got a father" is not perfect knowledge. I must know who is that father, what does he do, where does he live. That is perfect knowledge. Otherwise it is assumed that every man has got a father. Without father, how you can come into existence? That's a fact. But if he does not know who is actually his father, that is imperfect knowledge. What do you think, the nature of God?
Sister: I think He's just something all-knowing, you know...
Prabhupāda: Old?
Gaṇeśa: All-knowing. All-knowledgeable.
Prabhupāda: All-knowledgeable.
Prabhupāda: That's it. So God being all spirit, His energy is also spirit. His energy cannot be different. But in this material energy we forget God. Therefore it is called material. If we know that this wood is also energy of God, that is spiritual understanding. And if we think that wood has come independently from any other source, that is material. In the Vedānta-sūtra this is discussed in the beginning athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the Absolute Truth. The answer is janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) "The Absolute Truth is that, or is the source of everything, Absolute Truth." So there are two things, material and spiritual. So both are coming from God. Just like darkness and light, two sides of the sun. So when there is light, we call day; when it is darkness, we call night. But they are simply two sides of the sun, the supreme light, or the material light. Similarly, material is darkness, and spiritual is light. Both sides. Sometime it is said "The spiritual is the front side of God, and material is the back side of God."
So your back side or front side, they are the same. So similarly... Therefore this pantheism, they say, "Why should we take? This is back side? Everything is God." That is their philosophy. They say that everything is God, pantheism. But that is not perfect knowledge. Everything is God, and again, everything is not God.
Prabhupāda: Research. So by searching, searching, searching, if you do not come to Kṛṣṇa, then your searching is incomplete. That is the defect. And when you come to Kṛṣṇa understanding, then it is perfect. Then your research work is complete. That is... Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Research work means... Actually, that is science, to find out the original source. Just like they are claiming, "The original source of life is chemical." That is not knowledge, imperfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is as Kṛṣṇa says. What is that? Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). "I am the origin of everything." So when they come to Kṛṣṇa, then he finds out the original source. So that is possible by this research worker after many, many births, not many, many years, but many, many births. And bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births," bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān, "one who is actually advanced in knowledge, he surrenders unto Me." Why? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19), that "Kṛṣṇa is the original cause of everything." Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ: "Such research scholar, mahātmā, is very rare." And then He describes in the next verse that what is the symptom of these mahātmās, perfect soul. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ: (BG 9.13) "They are no more under the control of this material nature, they are fully under the control of spiritual nature."
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Brahmānanda: We have already discussed that pure devotional service to the Lord is automatically followed by perfect knowledge and detachment from material existence. But there are others who consider that all kinds of different occupational engagements, including those of religion, are meant for material gain. The general tendency of any ordinary man in any part of the world is to gain some material profit in exchange for religious or any other occupational service. Even in the Vedic literatures, for all sorts of religious performances an allurement of material gain is offered, and most people are attracted by such allurements or blessings of religiosity. Why are such so-called men of religion allured by material gain? Because material gain can enable one to fulfill desires, which in turn satisfy sense gratification. This cycle of occupational engagements includes so-called religiosity followed by material gain and material gain followed by fulfillment of desires. Sense gratification is the general way for all sorts of fully occupied men. But in the statement of Sūta Gosvāmī, as per the verdict of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, this is nullified by the present śloka.
One should not engage himself in any sort of occupational service for material gain only. Nor should material gain be utilized for sense gratification. How material gain should be utilized is described as follows.
Prabhupāda: People are after material gain. They have no spiritual information even, what is spirit, what is the need of spiritual realization, they do not know. Therefore they have been described as mūḍhas: fools and rascals. Those who are after material way of...
Prabhupāda: It is already explained. Anyone who is preaching...
Harikeśa: That verse is self-effulgent.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Harikeśa: You are the purport.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Simply people are trying to find out ways that they don't have to surrender to perfect knowledge. They can go on enjoying in the material world.
Prabhupāda: Wanted... (indistinct) A little... (indistinct)
Harikeśa: I think you should preach every breakfast. Your appetite is very good.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: Every breakfast you should preach. Then your appetite will be very good.
Prabhupāda: No, appetite or no appetite, I preach. (laughter) I do not preach for increasing appetite.
Prabhupāda: But in Sanskrit there are two words, jñāna and vijñāna. Jñāna means theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practical knowledge. So vijñāna is taken as science. Just like you... Theoretically you know that two hydrogen-oxygen mixed together becomes water. And when you do it practically in the laboratory, that is science, vijñāna. So jñāna-vijñāna-sahitam. In the Bhāgavata it is said, jñānaṁ me paramaṁ guhyaṁ yad-vijñāna-samanvitaḥ. Knowledge of God should be practical application in life. That is vijñānam. And according to our philosophy, unless one has got perfect knowledge of his self-identification, he remains an animal.
Prabhupāda: Dogmatic, no. Why we should waste our time talking with such foolish men? "I don't believe." No, what... You believe or not believe; fact is fact. You are going to be old man. If you say "I don't believe," then is that a very good proposition? It does not depend on your believing or not believing. The nature's course will take place. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). That will go on. What is there in your believing and not believing? If you keep yourself in such darkness that "If you believe, then it is fact," then you are a fool, rascal. If you depend only on your belief, then you are a fool. What is the meaning of your belief? "I believe if I touch fire it will not burn." Will this belief protect me? You touch fire; it will burn. You believe or not believe. What is this argument, "We don't believe"? This is going on. If nature's law is that you must die, then if you believe, "No, I'll not die," will that belief protect you? You have to submit to the nature's law. Why don't you understand this? You are talking of "believe and not believe." Whole world is going on in this way: "We think," "I suppose," "Perhaps," "I believe," like this. Where is science? Science does not depend on your "belief, not belief, supposing, perhaps." This is not science. But they are going on like that. Whole Darwin's theory is based on this, "Maybe millions of years past..." We want perfect knowledge, not such, what is called, saṁśayam. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, asaṁśayaṁ, "without any doubt." That is knowledge. And samagram, "complete."
Prabhupāda: Mass of people will follow. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha (BG 3.21). Just like everywhere, in politics there is in one leader and people follow him, so we want first-class leader. Then mass will follow. If the leaders are rascals and fools, then what will be result? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If the leader is blind, how he can help other blind men? He must be open eyes. Then he can lead thousands of blind men—"Come here." And if he is himself blind, then how he can help? That is wanted. One blind man... One open-eyes man is sufficient to lead many thousands of blind men. But if the leaders are also blind, then it is useless. He must be in perfect knowledge. That is wanted. We do not expect that mass of people will understand this philosophy. It is not possible. But at least the leaders, they must know how to lead people—the father, the teachers, the government, like that. Then people will follow.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), and you are finding out happiness. Then how much fool you are. The best authority says that "This is a place of suffering," and you are finding out happiness. So how much fool you are, it is very difficult to estimate. (laughter) Therefore Vedic knowledge is perfect. Now just like there is signboard, "No admission." So who is the fool, create some trouble by entering into it? He's a fool. If there is signboard, "There is no admission," and if somebody enters to create some trouble, he is not a fool? So Kṛṣṇa says, "There is no happiness," and if somebody searches happiness, he is not a fool? That is... Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness required, that he gets perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. He has no trouble. Kṛṣṇa said, "There is no happiness," and if somebody thinks, "All right, although Kṛṣṇa said, let me try for it," then he is a fool.
Prabhupāda: Huh? The simple thing explained in the Bhagavad-gītā... Simple thing explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, asmin dehe dehinām: "Within this body there is the proprietor." So they do not understand it. Huh?
Indian man (3): That comes after, after...
Indian man (4): Guru, you should go? Then only perfect knowledge he will get.
Yaśomatīnandana: Guru is there. Why don't they come?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru is there, but they won't come. They won't come.
Dr. Patel: That jagat guru is, you are, sir.
Prabhupāda: It is injunction of the śāstra. Tad-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). But who is coming to guru? Guru is canvassing whole world, "Please come to me."
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...I am in Bombay, but how many Gujaratis are my chela? There is only one Gujarati.
Dr. Patel: One is sufficient. He represents the whole Gujaratis.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. (laughter)
Harikeśa: So actually the one thing that makes Kṛṣṇa consciousness different from other religious processes is the practical application of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Full knowledge, perfect knowledge. And other religious systems, they have no knowledge. They say of God something but they do not know what is God. We know what is God and who is God. That is the difference.
Devotee (3): But they have no pure devotee in which to put their faith.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (3): They have no one in which to put their faith.
Prabhupāda: Whatever they may be, put because they do not know God, therefore it is cheating. Just see, India's capital and so dirty thing.
Harikeśa: You were saying about Eisenhower and Nehru?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Everywhere you have to learn from the perfect person. Then his knowledge is perfect. So our proposition is that: learn from Kṛṣṇa and you get perfect knowledge.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: That is why he is jagat guru.
Harikeśa: We've invented this pen, so we can invent how to use the pen.
Prabhupāda: You have not invented. Some experienced more than yourself, he has done. You have been given the pen to use it for that purpose.
Acyutānanda: Yes. Whenever some scientist does something, the whole nation of that scientist takes the credit. That is another idea. They say, "We made the pen," or something. Everyone in India takes the credit.
Prabhupāda: That is animalism. Dehātmā-buddhiḥ. "I belong to some particular body, and he belongs to the same body or same nation. Therefore we become..." Instead of "I," we become "we."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo (BG 18.66).
Prabhupāda: Yes, if he surrenders actually. He says. He says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo.
Gurukṛpā: That surrender has to be with perfect knowledge, or else it won't be strong enough.
Prabhupāda: If he surrenders, the knowledge will be there. That knowledge.... It is very psychological. If you surrender.... If I surrender to you, I must have some conception that you are very big. That much conception will help you, not more than this. Simply accept that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Kṛṣṇa bhakti kaile sarva karma kṛta haya. If you simply understand this, that "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then everything is in my knowledge..." Sraddha śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya, kṛṣṇa bhakti kaile sarva karma... And then he becomes immediately. And if I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then my life is successful. This much. Is it very difficult?
Gurukṛpā: No, it's the easiest thing.
Prabhupāda: Kavirāja Gosvāmī has explained very nicely. This is viśvāsa.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They accept a better theory when it is presented.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is presented. This is the beginning, that "Your knowledge is imperfect. You are believing your eyes, but that is not perfect knowledge. You have to see with knowledge." Paśyati jñāna... Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt. That is seeing, not seeing like a child. A child is seeing, a motor car is running, a airplane is running. He thinks a wonderful machine, but it is not the machine. It is the pilot. It is the driver. A child cannot see it. The father knows that it is not the machine. The machine may be however perfectly made; it cannot run. There must be a perfect pilot also. Just like we get on aeroplane. There are hundreds of men. If there is any trouble, then the pilot can stop it, not the hundreds of men.
Prabhupāda: Then what remains? The teeth is dangerous. Yes, how condemned life. And we had to pass through all these. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Nine lakhs of forms in the water. Crocodile is one of these. Just see how accurate is Vedic information. Never says "ten lakhs" or "eight lakhs." Nine lakhs. Now, if you don't believe, count. Go ahead. Count. How this knowledge is there? Nobody can go within the water to count how many forms are there, but how the Vedas gives the knowledge perfectly? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. This is Vedic knowledge. Where you cannot reach and you refer to Vedas, you'll get the knowledge. That is Vedas, perfect knowledge. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given the example: stool is impure, rejectable. Everyone knows. Veda says, "No, cow dung is pure." And you examine it; you'll find it is pure. That is Vedic knowledge. When you get information from the Vedas, it is perfectly right. So it is easier to take knowledge from the Vedas. Then you'll become perfect in knowledge. There is no question of researching. That is not possible. What you'll research? How many animals are there, aquatics are there, in the water? It is beyond your experience. Is there any scientist who can go within the water and count how many aquatic forms are there? Nothing you can do. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣā viṁśati.(?)What information we have got? Even you cannot speak perfectly well about this universe. We are not able even to speak perfectly what is there in the moon planet. They are going, trying to go, and coming back. And still, they are claiming perfection as perfect as God. Just see how lunatic they are.
Prabhupāda: Hearing. One who has heard, given oral reception nicely, he is perfect knowledge. Therefore our Vedas are known as śruti. You have to learn it by hearing, not by studying.
Dr. Patel: In bhakti also, śravaṇam is first.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. Anyone who is not taking seriously to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is purposefully committing suicide. It is not a sentiment; it is a scientific movement. But they do not care to understand. Therefore, purposefully they are committing suicide. Jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu, very appropriate word: "I have drunk poison knowingly." We shall return now?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Hari hari bifale, janama goṅāinu. Jaya. "I am free. What can I...? Whatever I like, I can do," without knowing, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).
Brian Singer: Do you find that in the translation from the thoughts and the Sanskrit to the English words, then from the English words to the mass of the people's heads, do you find that there is much loss?
Prabhupāda: No, if you have grasped the thought, that you can express in any language. But if you cannot grasp the thought, then you cannot express. So the.... Our translation is that we have to receive the thoughts as it is by the paramparā system. Therefore it is presented so nicely, and people like it. It is.... It is the value of the subject matter. That we have to receive from authorities. Just like any scientific book, say medical science. You cannot understand medical science by reading the books. It must be received through a medical man. Then it will be clear. Therefore the paramparā system.... Arjuna said, evaṁ paramparā... Kṛṣṇa said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2). Everything is paramparā. If you receive the knowledge from the authority, then you are in perfect knowledge, simply by..., not by reading the books. Therefore our method is to accept the perfect guru to understand the subject matter. But still, if one reads the books as it is from authorities, there is chance of understanding. Real thing is training. So our institution is training, not only training, full knowledge, practical and theoretical. That is real scientific. If you give up one side, then you can give up the theoretical side, but practical side you cannot give up. Then you'll never come. The two sides, practical and theoretical.... So that is real scientific knowledge. So two sides are presented in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and they are being thoroughly trained up. (pause) Take prasādam. (end)
Prabhupāda: It is not my—everyone's. You are in ignorance; you do not know; therefore we are trying to educate you. It is yours also. It is not a personal thing. It is meant for the living entities. That you people, you do not know, that we are all living entities. There is slight description of the evolution by Darwin. But he's also not in perfect knowledge. The real fact is the..., I am not this body, you are not this body. I am living entity within this body. Just like you are within your coat and shirt. The coat and shirt you are not. Similarly, we living entities, we are within this gross and subtle body. The gross body is made of earth, water, air, fire, and the subtle body is made of mind, intelligence, and egotism. So we are within this. So nobody knows; there is no educational system, what is our real constitutional position. We are wrongly accepting this body. And that kind of acceptance is there in the animals.
Prabhupāda: Nature.... But we also say, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). So it is to be understood that it is being done under superior control. If nature is doing, so nature is superior control. He cannot explain. So if he does not know how nature is working, then what is the value of his theory? If he says that he cannot explain how nature is doing, that means he is not expert. He may be mistaken. So why his opinion or decision should be taken final? He does not know how nature is working. That is not perfect knowledge. Does he say like that, "Nature is working"?
Guru-kṛpā: Nature.
Prabhupāda: So how nature is working, he does not know. Then his knowledge is imperfect. Nature is working how, that we know. That is very sober understanding. We say that nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). Nature.... We see nature. Generally we have got idea of the material nature, that the sun is one of the part and parcel of nature's working. The moon is also, the seasonal changes. So many things, nature is working very systematically. The summer season will appear exactly in the month of June and July. The fall begins in September every year. One can foretell that "Next September this will happen," because nature's routine is very fixed up.
Prabhupāda: So that means you have to accept it—there is superior administration. You may not know what is that administration, but you have to accept it. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, "Under My supervision." Here those who are in the gross ignorance, not intelligent, they can suggest that there is some brain, just like Professor Einstein used to say. But he has no knowledge who is that brain, and we have that knowledge, who is that brain. That brain is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore our knowledge is perfect. They can simply suggest that "There is a brain," but we can say, "Here is the brain." Then it is.... If one knows whose brain it is, that is perfect knowledge.
Satsvarūpa: Sometimes there's a question that I'm asked, that we say we're imperfect so we have to receive perfect knowledge, but they say if you're always imperfect, then how can you know that it's perfect, what you're hearing?
Prabhupāda: Yes, we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Just like a child does not believe, a boy, he has not seen his father. He does not believe that there is father. But if the mother says, "Yes, my dear child, there is father," so then his knowledge is perfect. With his imperfect knowledge, he was disbelieving that there is father, but when the mother says, he has to accept it. Then his knowledge becomes perfect. He has not seen who is father. That's a fact, maybe. And, but the mother is authority. She says, "Here, my dear child. There is father." Then his knowledge perfect. So we may be imperfect, the child is imperfect, but when he gets the knowledge from the perfect source, mother, then it is perfect. Similarly, we, we never say that we are perfect. If you are perfect, then why you are learning? You are trying to become perfect. So our process is that we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Therefore whatever we say, it is perfect. A child does not know, "What is this, father?" The father says "My dear child, it is called microphone."
Prabhupāda: They say, they may say, but first of all, what is the position of the conditioned soul? Four defects. You must commit mistakes, you must be illusioned, his senses are imperfect, and he's a cheater. These are the four defects of conditioned souls. So how the conditioned soul can give perfect knowledge?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is our conclusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The position of conditioned soul is that he must commit mistake, and he's illusioned, and his senses are imperfect, and he wants to cheat. Everyone speaks something. You know that he has no perfect knowledge in the subject matter, still he wants to speak something. That means he wants to cheat. This is going on. And then after some years somebody says, "No, it was not correct." That means he cheated. The former scientists or philosophers cheated.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Why ask?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no perfect knowledge and he proposed something and now it is incorrect. And the man who is correcting, he's also a cheater. This is going on, this is their paramparā system. One cheater, another cheater, another cheater. So why shall I believe the cheaters?
Prabhupāda: Because they know, we can cheat these rascals, government. They are all rascals, we can simply talk in some bombastic words (speaks gibberish). They'll believe it. This is going on. All imperfect knowledge.
Hari-śauri: If they don't produce some new theory, or some new discovery...
Prabhupāda: That means they prove their own foolishness. Why do you produce new theory? If there is perfect knowledge? That proves their foolishness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's also called intellectual exercise.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to...
Hari-śauri: Mental speculation.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Manorathena. Asati dhāvato bahiḥ. Mental speculation.
Prabhupāda: Perfection of knowledge means to understand God. That is perfection of knowledge. Otherwise, it is imperfect knowledge. Therefore it is called Vedānta. Veda means knowledge. (more people enter)
Vṛṣākapi: This is Bill Sauer. He wrote this book, The Fourth Kingdom.
Prabhupāda: Fourth kingdom? What is the idea?
Vṛṣākapi: The idea is that the goal of life should be to...
Bill Sauer: To put people on other planets.
Vṛṣākapi: Put people on other planets, so that the race can survive.
Bill Sauer: So that all of life can survive.
Vṛṣākapi: So that all of life can survive.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:
- yānti deva-vratā devān
- pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
- bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
- yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām
- (BG 9.25)
Prabhupāda: Here is a scientist. You have not studied properly. That is defect. So why defective knowledge you are declaring as knowledge? That is cheating. When you have perfect knowledge, then you declare. That is science.
Mr. Boyd: Then you advocate that Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be practiced in every action that you take.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is practice. Abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā (BG 8.8).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientists at the present time, they say like this because their knowledge is simply illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Real knowledge is covered.
Prabhupāda: Just like this planetary system. So many planets are there. They do not know anything. And they are going to the Mars. They are going to the moon. All bluff. Two things unsolved. They do not know what is life and they do not know what are these planetary system. And still, they are speaking on these two subjects as authority. That is bluff.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we conclude that without understanding the existence of God, these two problems can never be answered.
Prabhupāda: Never be. You hear from God; then you have got perfect knowledge. And if you want to become scientist more than God, then you'll never know it. But their real propaganda is "There is no God." That is their real propaganda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the root cause of this illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to prove "There is no God. Everything is science." However rascaldom it may be, "It is everything." But we are preaching about God. How we can tolerate? We must expose them. That is our business.
Mr. Sahani: No, fortune is something which we say...
Prabhupāda: No, I am talking of misfortune. That the perfect knowledge is being distributed by Kṛṣṇa, but we are so misfortunate we do not take it. That is my fault. Kṛṣṇa...
Mr. Sahani: Misfortune is again, is not in the hands of human being.
Prabhupāda: No, misfortune is your creation. Fortune... Man is the architect of his own fortune. So you can create your fortune and misfortune. That is the world, going on, so many people, they are working, somebody is creating fortune, somebody is creating misfortune. So anyway, when Kṛṣṇa directly is giving you the knowledge, perfect knowledge, why don't you take it? Is it not misfortune?
Mr. Sahani: Well, that probably is ignorance.
Prabhupāda: THat is misfortune. Ignorance means misfortune. The unfortunate persons are those who are ignorant, uneducated. Therefore you have to take education to become fortunate. And that education is being imparted by Kṛṣṇa, but you don't take it. That is misfortune. If you take education from Kṛṣṇa, you become fortunate. So why don't you take it? Kṛṣṇa has said this very thing.
Prabhupāda: Give me one piece. For any intelligent man, Bhagavad-gītā is perfect knowledge. There is no doubt about it. But unfortunately most men are rascals. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is perfect instruction. There is no doubt about it. How can I deny? God is speaking personally.
Jñānagamya: I met a man on the plane coming here just recently Prabhupāda, and he had translated Bhagavad-gītā into Parsi, the Persian language, and I invited him to come here, but he is not coming. He is afraid to meet you, I'm sure. And I told him... He was smoking cigarettes and was buying, purchasing liquor on the plane, and I said, "Why are you doing this?"
Prabhupāda: Your duty you have done, that's all.
Interviewer (4): But that is (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we say practically. What is the use of "ism," manufactured by imperfect senses. We have got defects. Our..., we commit mistake. Who is the person who does not commit mistake? None. We accept this body, which I am not, this is called pramada. Pramada vipralipsa,(?) without any perfect knowledge you want to teach. That is cheating. Vipralipsa. And karnapada(?), our senses are imperfect. So how you can give perfect knowledge with all this imperfection? Unless you become perfect, you cannot give perfect knowledge. So any knowledge given by any imperfect person, we reject immediately, useless waste of time. And actually that is the fact. If you are blind, you cannot see. You say, "Here is the elephant, a big stambha, pillar," by seeing his leg, by touching his leg. But elephant is just like a pillar? That is our speculation. Andha-kūpa, what is called? Kūpa-maṇḍūka. A frog in the well is trying to study Atlantic Ocean.
Prabhupāda: The point is that... You can explain in this way, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (Bs. 5.37). Kṛṣṇa is in the Goloka planet which is far, far away from our planet, but still He is everywhere. That is the difference. That you cannot imagine. In our material knowledge you cannot imagine that. But that is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, tad aham aśnāmi: (BG 9.26) "Anyone offering Me in devotion patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam, I eat." Now, Kṛṣṇa is living far, far away in the Goloka planet. How He can eat? That is your imagining. But Kṛṣṇa says, "Yes, I do." That is Kṛṣṇa. Although He is far, far away, He is within your heart. That you cannot imagine, how it is possible. That is your material knowledge. But you have to accept from the statement of śāstra that although He is far, far away, within your heart. Aṇḍāntara-stha-para... He is within the atom also. So that you cannot imagine. That requires a different knowledge, Vedic knowledge. The material knowledge will not help you, but you cannot imagine. You have to accept Vedic knowledge. What is stated in the Vedas, that you have to accept. That's all. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore to understand Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's activities you have to learn from Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā. You cannot manufacture your knowledge. That is not... Because you are defective—your senses are imperfect—so whatever knowledge you get through your senses, that is all imperfect. You cannot get perfect knowledge by your imperfect senses. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Similarly to go to the Absolute Truth, you begin with impersonal Brahman. Just as sunshine is impersonal, but everyone can see the sunshine is coming from the sun surface. Everyone knows that. Therefore the sunshine is not so important as the sunglobe. Similarly brahma-tattva-nirviśeṣa, nirākāra-brahma is there, but more important than is the localized aspect. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61), God is all-pervading. The sunshine is all-pervading, and as Paramātmā He is also all-pervading. But if you can enter into the sunglobe, you will meet with the sun god. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." So there is sun-god. Sun-god and the sun globe and the sunshine, they are one. But different stages of understanding. Similarly, Brahman understanding, Paramātmā understanding, then the Supreme Personality of Godhead understanding. Advaya-jñāna. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But if you stop simply in the sunshine, that means you have no knowledge of the sun god or the sun globe. If you have simply knowledge of the sun globe, then you are not aware of what is the sun-god. But if you know sun-god, then you know what is sun globe and the sunshine. That is wanted. That is perfect knowledge. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). When, after many many births, when one is actually in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (1): Sir, I read in one of your lectures at London, before the British office (indistinct), and you gave the example of Mahatma Gandhi and Kennedy. In particular, Mahatma Gandhi you said that four types of (sic:) defaulted mind and this condition and those condition.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Every living being is polluted by four kinds of deficiencies. A conditioned soul commits mistake. He takes something for something. And because he has no perfect knowledge, he wants to become leader. That is cheating.
Guest (1): Right. You have said that in that speech.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And, above all, his senses are imperfect. Therefore, from such persons with deficiency, how you can get real knowledge? That is not possible. We have to approach a person who has no deficiency. Then we shall get real knowledge. So Kṛṣṇa and His representative are persons without any deficiencies. So we have to take knowledge from Kṛṣṇa or one who represents Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we'll be cheated, because he has got deficiencies.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Iti proktam and yad anyathā ajñānam: "Besides this," anyathā, "that is all ajñānam." So we can take perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. There is no difficulty. But we deny: "Why shall I take?" That is our disease. The same thing: "I am also Kṛṣṇa. I can also speak like Kṛṣṇa." This is...
Indian man: Aham.
Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. Not only aham. Aham is good. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is good. But ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, when he becomes rascal by false ahaṅkāra, then it is dangerous. It is dangerous. And that is going on, these dangerous leaders, by ahaṅkāra, spoiling the whole atmosphere. That is dangerous. Our preaching is... We say that "Here is Kṛṣṇa speaking. He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So you simply think of Kṛṣṇa, and you chant His name and go to the temple, offer your obeisances. And if you can, offer something for His pūjā." Bas. Our mission is completed. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. The words are there. (break) (Hindi) Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27).
Prabhupāda: That is also imperfect, because you have prepared. You are rascal; your instrument is rascal. How a rascal can manufacture something perfect? How it is possible? Hm? Anything we attempt to get, knowledge, is imperfect. Only perfect knowledge is when you get it through the perfect person. The same example: you cannot make experiment or speculation who is your father. The only right information—from your mother, that's all. Finish. Otherwise, everything speculation. How you'll rightly understand your father? Except the mother's statement, what is the next alternative? Hm? Is there any?
Gurukṛpā: We're looking. You can ask everybody, every man on the street.
Prabhupāda: That is imperfect. It will never be perfect.
Satsvarūpa: They say that method is very good—sometimes—but it's not to be used all the time, authority.
Prabhupāda: All the time. If the authority is perfect, it is all the time.
Prabhupāda: That is... Rarely they found. Therefore they appreciate. One may comment on scholarship. That is jñāna. And devotion without scholarship-sentiment. Just see. They're both combined. Perfect knowledge. That is wanted. That is my Guru Mahārāja's... He used to say, "Philosophy without religion is dry speculation, and religion without philosophy is sentiment."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, you wrote this in your purport in Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: That should be confirmed(?). Caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra. Don't accept it blindly. We have not accepted Caitanya cult blindly. This is practical. The purpose was to separate from India to become happy. Where is the happiness?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Civil strife.
Prabhupāda: And that is real happiness?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Not they are. And this was the British plan: "So they are driving away? All right, make such arrangement. They'll perpetually remain unhappy."
Prabhupāda: So take the perfect knowledge. Follow it. You become perfect. Perfection means... That is also stated in Bhagavad-gītā. Real misery is that I am eternal... As God is eternal, I am also eternal. So now I am subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease, due to the physical body. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam: (BG 13.9) "You are trying to mitigate all kinds of sufferings. So why don't you see the real suffering is here, janma." How to stop this repetition of birth—that is your real problem. But they have made problems, so-called politics, philanthropy, altruism, humanitarianism, this, that, that, so many. But real problem remains, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. This is the defect. They won't take what is the problem, how to solve it. Everything is in oblivion, ignorance.
Prabhupāda: This was the first remark. Then, gradually, these boys joined. They were after God, but they were given to understand that "God is dead. Now you take LSD." So the... God is speaking:
- mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha
- yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ
- asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ
- yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu
- (BG 7.1)
"Take perfect knowledge of God from Me." Why don't you do that? Boliye. What is the reason? Boliye, Swamiji. When God is speaking that "You take from Me perfect and complete knowledge of God," so why don't you take it?
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but we are denying. Is it not? When... Suppose a big man. You do not know what he is. But if the man says, "You want to know me? All right, I shall disclose all my secrets to you. Try to understand." So why don't you..., do not take it? If you want to know the person, and the person is explaining himself, why don't you take it? Why theorize that "God is like this. God is like this"? What is the meaning? When the person has come to explain about himself... Asaṁśayaṁ samagraṁ māṁ yathā jñāsyasi tac chṛṇu: (BG 7.1) "Hear." Hearing is the process of knowledge. Therefore our Vedas are called śruti. The knowledge has to be acquired through ear. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "Don't try to see a sādhu by your eyes. You try to see a sādhu by ears." Karṇe sādhu dekhi. (Hindi) Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. (Hindi) For real perfect knowledge, one has to hear. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. That is guru. One who has heard perfectly from the authority, he is guru. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). And who is guru? Śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Everything direction is there.
Prabhupāda: I'll treat myself. Let the kavirājas come. And makara-dhvaja... One after another, they will make the things complicated. What is your opinion? Hm?
Bhavānanda: We all feel, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that your direction is absolutely perfect. It is coming directly from the spiritual platform. Therefore anything which you tell us to do, we want to do, and we have full faith and confidence that it is absolutely correct. But we don't have full faith and confidence in people who are materially conditioned. Therefore we have taken you as our spiritual master. You have perfect knowledge of everything spiritual and you have perfect knowledge of everything material.
Prabhupāda: So, all of you agree to this?
Bhavānanda: Do we all agree?
Devotees: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Then I will give direction. Simply I want to know about the makara-dhvaja, consulting both the kavirājas. (pause) Why you stop kīrtana?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Go ahead, Pañca. (kīrtana begins, Pañca-draviḍa sings slowly)
Prabhupāda: Mildly kīrtana.
| Page Title: | Perfect knowledge (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 06 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=138, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 138 |