Prabhupāda: The idea is we have not been able to take the matter in hand to stop death. That is not possible.
Devotee: They think by endeavoring, they will. They say that for so long this idea that we have a life after this life, that kept people complacent, without working up to their own conclusion. Now if you cast out that idea, you forget that idea of an afterlife and you look at here and now, then you will become...
Prabhupāda: You are working. The dogs and hogs are working, day and night. Why they are working? If you (indistinct), they are already working. They are already working like animals, day and night. We sing that, śīta ātapa bāta bariṣana e dina jāminī jagi re. They are already working. They are not free.
Devotee (2): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) can make that.
Devotee: They're the ones who have actually neglected taking into consideration the real problem, they slide over the real problem, that is birth, death, old age and disease. And they are fiddling around in very small matters—social problems, political problems.
Prabhupāda: These social problems are automatically solved. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, social problems will be solved automatically.
Atreya Ṛṣi: The scientists have been offering a spiritual solution, but a spiritual solution also includes all other...
Prabhupāda: All material solutions.
Atreya Ṛṣi: And they are trying to solve political problems, and they are unable to. This is the...
Prabhupāda: That means less intelligent. They have a poor fund of knowledge. And they are philosophers.
Atreya Ṛṣi: And they have no...
Śyāmasundara: And they call their process social engineering. For instance, they say a criminal does not become bad because he is naturally bad but it's because of his environment. So if we train him in such a way he will be good, and we can...
Prabhupāda: Just like in the Western countries, the social (indistinct), the killing of animals—it is taken not bad. In other societies it is taken as bad. How is that? There are two contradictory societies. One society says that nonviolence is nice, better, but another society says no, violence is better. Then how will I (indistinct)? Which society is good, which society bad? How you will decide?
Devotee: He has no way of deciding.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no way. If you come to the Vedic life, then you will know.
Śyāmasundara: So we should propose this to Skinner: "We will accept your process if you take direction from us."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: He accepts that there should be some process, but he doesn't know what it is. He obviously has not...
Prabhupāda: The process is, just like we say, Vedic injunction: sa gurum eva abhigacchet. He must approach guru.
Atreya Ṛṣi: His idea is that the process should be man-controlled. Our society is being controlled by man.
Prabhupāda: It is man-controlled. It is man-controlled. Our society is being controlled by me.