Prabhupāda: I'll request you, because you are so much interested, and you have already approved Bhagavad-gītā, you have translated. Amongst the leading personalities, you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is and spread it, it will have immediate effect. That is already experimented. Just like in western countries, before me, hundreds and thousands, swamis and yogis went there. But not a single person could understand what is Bhagavad-gītā, and what is Kṛṣṇa. Now hundreds and thousands of these boys in Europe, America, Canada, Africa, everywhere, Australia, everywhere, they are now become devotees... So they're intelligent persons, they're coming from rich family. Why they have taken seriously? Because they have understood Bhagavad-gītā nicely. So I request that God is neither Indonesian, neither Indian, neither African, God is God. And He claims that all living entities, in any form... The form is superficial. The form is taken as dress. Just like you are dressed in a different way, I am dressed in a different way. But we are not talking to the dress, we are talking to the man who is putting on the dress. Similarly, this bodily distinction is material. But spiritually we are all one. There is no question of becoming Indian or Indonesian or African or Asian or this or that. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You know. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śvapāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Because paṇḍita does not see the outward dress, paṇḍita sees the inside, who is putting on the dress. Therefore, without misinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā, or being misled by so-called big, big leaders, if you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, it will be very nice, beneficial to everyone. That is my, not opinion, but is the fact. Things should be taken as it is. Call a spade a spade. Now, interpretation is required when things are not clear. When things are not very clear, not easily understood... There is example in Sanskrit grammar, gaṅgāyāṁ ghoṣa bali(?). The neighborhood of ghoṣa family is on the Ganges. Now, on the Ganges-Ganges is water—how there can be a village? Now, here interpretation required. When the matter is (break) ...on the water but on the bank of the Ganges.
Opinion (Conversations 1973 - 1974)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So whose commentary you have followed?
Guest (2): We try to take from various books and we try, at first we have to understand clearly their positions, then we put them in a simple way that everybody can understand it clearly. Only the part that's very difficult to (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Now here, Bhagavad-gītā, in the Fourth Chapter it is said, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). You can open to the Fourth Chapter.
Guest (2): (Indonesian) but according to our opinions that religion is something that true living.
Prabhupāda: Something?
Guest (2): Something that we should live truly.
Prabhupāda: True living. Yes. True, just like good citizens...
Guest (2): That's right.
Prabhupāda: Good citizenship means living under the direction of the government. That is good citizenship. Similarly, human life means to live nicely under the direction of God. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. But the human life, (pause) That first verse: imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt (BG 4.1). So what is your explanation of this verse?
Guest (2): You want to explain this into er... Do you want to explain this?
Prabhupāda: Yes, there is life after death. This is your question?
Scholar: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That whether there is life after death. What is your question?
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What is your opinion? It is a fact. Just like you are a child, now you are a young man. So you have changed your body. Similarly, when you change this body, you get another body.
Scholar: Life after death.
Prabhupāda: That is life after death.
Guest: Is there any world...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest: Any description of the worlds...
Prabhupāda: Whatever is done is done. Now, you try to correct others by behaving yourself. Otherwise, there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here. That's all. Otherwise, it will be not very nice to attract when people are attracted by seeing your behavior. They are seeing that, "Oh, Europeans and Americans, they have got such nice Vaiṣṇavas." They are attracted on that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they will immediately accuse, "Oh, they are..." So that should be corrected. The same principle, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere, we should behave ourselves nicely, then teach others. Then it will be (indistinct). Another, this is general principle, now we have discussed, now we try to follow. Another thing that Keśi-ghāṭa affair. Shall we make further progress? I acquired that property (indistinct). What is your opinion? From the circumstances as that is now, because any temple, it must be nicely, very nicely managed, otherwise you cannot attract. Our Los Angeles temple we want to attract people. So it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen. So unless, that means there must be sufficient bank balance. Such a big temple.
Devotee: I don't.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: I don't think that there's enough people to clean up and manage and keep clean Keśi-ghāṭa. Maybe in the future sometime, but...
Prabhupāda: At the present it is not...
Karandhara: Now in Russia, the people are starting to become disillusioned.
Prabhupāda: I, I, I am traveling all over the world. My opinion is that, materially, America is happy. And spiritually some portion of India is happy. Otherwise, there is no happiness all over the world. And material happiness is illusion. That is not happiness. Because it will break at any time. Therefore that is not happiness. And spiritual happiness is real happiness. So in Russia, there is neither material nor spiritual. So they are unhappy in all respects. I asked Professor Kotovsky to call for a taxi. So he said: "Well, it is Moscow. Very difficult to get taxi." So he came down himself, he showed us this way: "Please go in this way, in this way, and you get (to) your hotel." He's a big man. He knows that taxi will not be available. And there are few taxis only, show. I did not see any store very neat and clean, well-decorated. Not a single. All old with dust. As if antique shop. The antique shop, just like in your country. I was daily having my morning walk in the Red Square. The most dangerous square...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What square?
Prabhupāda: Red Square. Yes. I think you have got my picture.
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, no, why Indians? We are talking of the whole world. Why you take the example of the Indians? Indians may be backward. We are talking of you, so forward. What you have done? Indians may be backward. We are not talking of any particular nation or particular people. We are talking of general people, people in general. India, why bring India?
Umāpati: Well, it's the popular opinion over here that Indians are...
Prabhupāda: No, no, why do you bring? This is another foolishness. Why do you bring India? What you have done first of all, sir?
Umāpati: Well, I am not doing this.
Prabhupāda: No no, you are your men. Those who are not Indian.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, perhaps it's because spiritual culture originates, spiritual culture is, permeates their society.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is. When spiritual consciousness is presented in truth, then you become conquered. You have been already. The Christian people are astonished, how Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement so big shape within so few years. They are afraid now. Yes. And why they shall not be? Here is science. And that is foolishness only.
Umāpati: That's their new religion.
Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughs) I don't know what you mean by that, but of course it is very true that we do not know much about life, and scientists are the first to agree to that, that we know very little.
Prabhupāda: That is real scientist.
Krishna Tiwari: But the question is, on the left hand... Of course, in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many scientists, there is no difference between a scientist or a common man or a religious man. Both..., all these people are trying to find out about their environment. So are the religious men. They want to find out more about themselves, about the nature they live in. They want to know more about it. They want to find out why they're here, how are they to live in this world, and so I do not think there is any difference between the two.
Prabhupāda: No, there cannot be difference.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes. And the only difference is that where the scientist deals with the phenomena of nature and wants to show it to others. In a strict sense he can tell how he (indistinct) better; others can go and say it. Sometimes it is very hard, I think, for all these reasons, for the religious leaders to do that.
Prabhupāda: Now, so far we are laymen, we have no instrument to measure. We simply hear from the śāstra and we try to perceive, that's all. But there is something. That measurement very, may be very, very small, but there is the substance. That is our point.
Krishna Tiwari: Right. But, I mean, with due respect to śāstras, after all, in my opinion śāstras are written by very intelligent people, and how so ever intelligent they would have been five thousand years ago, they could not have...
Prabhupāda: Not five thousand years.
Krishna Tiwari: Or ten thousand?
Prabhupāda: No. You cannot calculate.
Krishna Tiwari: How... Well, this is a different game then.
Prabhupāda: No. We have got... Because this, if we take on the strength of śāstra, we understand that after the birth of Brahmā... Brahmā created this universe.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Lord Brahmā.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Prabhupāda: But, uh, Brahmā's one day you cannot calculate.
Prabhupāda: Now the fact, first of all, we are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: All right...
Prabhupāda: And the laws of nature... (break)
Krishna Tiwari: From my opinion, something which I do know.
Prabhupāda: But we know, we know, in this way, that Lord Kṛṣṇa says that mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10), "Under My control, under My superintendence, the material law of nature is working."
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I don't know who, who, who, who said that...
Prabhupāda: You don't know; therefore you learn it, you learn it from Bhagavad-gītā. You do not know that. You learn it.
Krishna Tiwari: No. I have read Bhagavad-gītā. I am aware of it. I know what is said there.
Prabhupāda: Now we say... Not we say; our Vedic literature says that there is a controller of the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I don't know about that. Maybe. Me, I don't know about that.
Prabhupāda: You don't know. Why don't you know? You must know. You must know. Here it is said.
Krishna Tiwari: I'm giving a scientific opinion, not my opinion. Scientists don't know.
Prabhupāda: That scientists, but that the scientists are fools.
Krishna Tiwari: I don't know that or that.
Prabhupāda: Yes! They are fools.
Krishna Tiwari: (laughing) We..., I don't know. Maybe. I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Maybe? Yes!
Krishna Tiwari: I don't know. (laughing)
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is a fact because we are, we are arguing. We are under the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And there must be one who is above the laws of nature.
Krishna Tiwari: No problem, yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So we're talking about the whole, which includes, includes that creator.
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Now, when...
Krishna Tiwari: I think we don't have much difference of opinion.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And we go, to find about that creator, we go to the source of authority...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...which we know, this is the only process to find a creator, because we are...
Krishna Tiwari: How you know that?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...His subordinate...
Krishna Tiwari: How you know that about?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because we are His subordinate. Now, and you will know, if you follow the process, you will know too.
Krishna Tiwari: How?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You have to accept one by one. You have to accept first of all that He is the authority.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, how can you accept somebody's authority without knowing them?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Krishna Tiwari: ...when I will have...
Prabhupāda: I don't say who, but you have to believe that there is a person and there is a superior authority.
Krishna Tiwari: Person, I don't think so. It's not from person. Not in my opinion.
Prabhupāda: Or not person; something, something superior to these laws of material nature. That you have to accept.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay.
Prabhupāda: That is our point. That is our point. That's all.
Krishna Tiwari: But that is, this is again a conjecture which probably everybody is...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you have to accept. We are under the laws of nature, and laws of nature is controlled by something superior.
Krishna Tiwari: That's fine. I don't think we have any disagreement on that point.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let us agree to that point.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: If we agree to that, then there is no disagreement. Let us stop here. That's all.
Krishna Tiwari: Okay. I mean that is, but that is very obvious to everybody. I mean this is nothing, this is no...
Prabhupāda: Now our, our preaching is, "Here is the controller." Now, you may take it or not take it. That is different thing. But we say "Here is the controller."
Krishna Tiwari: Only difference of opinion is this, that, uh, one... Oh, you say or I say, it doesn't matter. It's not reflected to you. Anybody who says that they know about God, they have actually no, no, no, no way to prove any way, one way or the other.
Prabhupāda: No. We don't know by your process.
Krishna Tiwari: By any process.
Prabhupāda: Your process. Your process is, you are trying to ascend. But we are taking knowledge from directly God. That is the difference.
Krishna Tiwari: That's where my trouble is, and I...
Prabhupāda: No, no, your trouble must be there.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because you're godless.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. Not true.
Prabhupāda: But Vedas, authorities have not been accepted by all the ācāryas, by the, all the brāhmaṇas, all great personalities in India? That is our authority. Now, you don't believe in authority. That is you have become deviated from Vedas. That is the point.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, if you want to say that point.
Prabhupāda: That is the point.
Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion.
Prabhupāda: That we have got our authority. That's all.
Krishna Tiwari: This is not my opinion, because I look with eyes open; I make my own mind.
Prabhupāda: This opinion, it is your opinion. Because you are Indian, I am also Indian. I believe you don't believe.
Krishna Tiwari: Sure, I do not believe.
Prabhupāda: So it is your opinion.
Krishna Tiwari: I do not believe in the strict following of every word...
Prabhupāda: That's all right, that is your, that is your point of view, but that is not our point of view.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, right, we disagree on that one.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, that is your, that is your point of view, but that is not our point of view.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, right, we disagree on that one.
Śyāmasundara: You said once, in a court of law, if there are two points of view at the final judgment, it has to be judged by the results of which point of view. So if you, if you judge by the results of our process and his process which people are..., have attained to some kind of perfect understanding of themselves, some kind of satisfaction with life, you have to point to our process and say that ours gets the balance of favorable opinion, because in your process, no one has been made happy.
Krishna Tiwari: How does say that in your process, anybody has been made happy?
Prabhupāda: Everyone who follows Vedic injunctions, they're happy.
Devotee (1): You ask me.
Krishna Tiwari: You ask me. I'm very happy.
Prabhupāda: But you are happy with imperfect knowledge.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, no. (laughing) Again it's the same thing.
Prabhupāda: You said, you said... No. You are happy with your imperfect education of an animal.
Krishna Tiwari: Everybody is.
Prabhupāda: Imperfect knowledge and happiness.
Prabhupāda: ...recently I've heard that the people in the airport protested against Indira Gandhi, that "Give us rain." Yes. That is Vedic civilization ideal. Why there is rain then no rain? The king should be responsible. One brāhmaṇa lost his son. He immediately went to the king and asked him that "The son has died before the death of the father; why this irregularity? You are responsible." You see? The ideal is that the king is representative of God, because we are all sons of God. We have come here in this material world for our proper guidance. The king is responsible, the spiritual master is responsible, the father is responsible, the elderly persons are responsible. Because you told me that we have to work for other. That other is Kṛṣṇa. If we utilize our intelligence for serving Kṛṣṇa under the guidance of the king or the spiritual master or the father, then the society is perfect. That is ideal civilization. What is your opinion about this? How do you think this ideal...
David Wynne: I think it's... I... I... I wonder when it will come. Will it come on this level or what...?
Prabhupāda: Immediately, provided you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
David Wynne: Yes.
Devotee (2): So one doesn't have to give up his...
Prabhupāda: No. Arjuna was a soldier, he was a fighter. The battlefield was there, the war was there, everything was there. He did not... He took to Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean he gave up the field and went away. He remained there, but simply the consciousness was changed. He was not willing to fight on his own account. He changed his opinion, "Yes, now I shall fight. By Your grace, my all doubts are now gone." This is required, this is perfection. And there's the picture how Kṛṣṇa is guiding Arjuna. When the ranks are formed.
Devotees and David Wynne: Yes.
Prabhupāda: "Just here. Just here."
Devotee (3): This picture is in George's album.
David Wynne: Yeah, yeah. When I was young my mother died. I was very unhappy, and I read the..., a bit where Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that "That which is real always exists, and that which isn't real never existed at all," and then I stopped being unhappy. Because this book is..., it tells you everything. (end)
Prabhupāda: Kristo
Mr. Wadell: "The anointed."
Prabhupāda: "Anointed," yes.
Mr. Wadell: I understand.
Prabhupāda: So in India, ordinary men, they call Kṛṣṇa "Kristo." My younger brother, his name was Kṛṣṇa. But we are calling him "Kristo." That is ordinary use. So this Kristo word came from India. What is your opinion?
Mr. Wadell: I'm sorry. Can you...? Are you asking me?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kristo. This is called apabhraṁśa. Apa means perverted, perverted spelling of Kṛṣṇa.
Mr. Wadell: I do not know the true answer to that question, I'm afraid.
Prabhupāda: And the meaning, anointed. What is the explanation of anointed?
Mr. Wadell: I am not sure whether this was a title applied to him by his disciples or whether it was a title which he himself explained to them, and it makes a difference whether he regarded himself as being anointed... If so he would have said this was by the..., his father.
Prabhupāda: But Kristo is person.
Mr. Wadell: It is a name applied to...
Prabhupāda: It is a name, then it must be a person.
Guest (1): I couldn't follow you.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest (1): I haven't followed you.
Prabhupāda: No, what is your opinion, my description of intelligence and not, no intelligence?
Guest (1): I think you're right.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. (laughter)
Guest (1): But you know, my thoughts must be really not worth very much.
Prabhupāda: But we can give intelligence by which he can become independent. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Guest (1): How can we in a money-orientated world?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Haṁsadūta: How can we become intelligent or independent?
Guest (1): In a money-orientated world?
Prabhupāda: Well, money you can get. That money does not mean independence.
Guest (1): No, I know.
Prabhupāda: Our..., this book, Nectar of Devotion, that is a study book in the Temple University, Philadelphia. Similarly, our Kṛṣṇa Book, and what other books? They are...? Especially Kṛṣṇa Book and Nectar of Devotion. Bhagavad-gītā also, As It Is. (pause) We consider Lord Buddha also as incarnation of God.
Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, I know that. Of course, on this there's a difference of view between the orthodox Buddhists and that thinking. Because during the earlier days of Buddhist preaching there were certain differences of opinion. And the brāhmaṇa sections fell into various categories. Some of them were not very friendly, and others accepted quite a few of his, their teachings. And a third section, led by people like Sarikuta (?) and Munkali (?), Sanmukhala (?), they became followers as well. And, of course, so many things have been incorporated, kāma, krodha, lobha, kleśa, abhimāna. They are very similar to the teachings of the Buddha, and they are very progressive. Because lobha, lobha, lobha, lobha is at the root of our problems. (Sanskrit or Pali:) Tanhaya jayate soko, tanhaya jayate bhayak, tanhaya vipra mukta syat, nati soko ato bhayat. "Greed is the cause of suffering, greed is the cause of fear. Remove this greed: where is the suffering? Where is the fear?" And, of course, being tolerant and understanding, man being a bundle of habits and customs, we cannot eradicate all grief overnight. But certainly we can start reducing this greed. Reduce and reduce. And then that's the only way to purify the mind. And then ought show such a society where greed has been reduced will be relatively a peaceful society. Simple living, high thinking and high practice. That's the cornerstone of our philosophies. Multiplication of so many (indistinct), colonational output, flying to the moon and not going into one's mind, and producing these things and calling them (indistinct). What is...
Prabhupāda: The one thing is they take it. Others will not take it. That is the difference. If... There is a picture; my Guru Mahārāja has..., one man has fallen in a deep well, and he's crying "Save me!" So another man dropped a rope, that "You catch it. I shall carry you." Then he'll not catch it. Then how he can be drawn. So... (break) ...mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is nothing more superior than Me." We are preaching the same thing, that "You are searching after God. You are, some of you are disgusted that 'There is no God,' but here is God. You take His name. You take His address. You take His daily activities. Everything is there." And that is our mission. And we started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement in 1966. So when I registered this society, somebody suggested that "Why not make it 'God consciousness?' " And no, I want to give definitely what is God. God, they have got different conception. But here is God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That is the Vedic injunction. "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." And when He was present, He proved it, that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So we have not introduced any new system of religion. That is not a fact. We have simply placed, administered, the same thing which was spoken five thousand years ago. That's all. Five thousand years ago, Kṛṣṇa said that "There is nothing, no more superior authority than Me." We are preaching the same thing. The same old thing. Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). "You just surrender unto Me." Kṛṣṇa said that "Surrender unto Me," and we are speaking, "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa;" same thing. Kṛṣṇa said that "I am the origin of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). We are speaking the same thing, that the original source of everything is Kṛṣṇa. We are challenging the scientists also. They are of opinion that "Life has come from matter," and we are challenging, "No, life and matter, both have come from life." This is our challenge. So originally life, originally Kṛṣṇa, life. Not matter. Matter has come subsequently. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a new movement. It is the old movement. At least, historically, five thousand years old. And we have got so many books. We have... Out of sixty volumes, we have published only about twelve volumes. So it's a great literature, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So everything is there; nothing new. We haven't got to make a new system of religion. It is already there. Simply people may kindly understand it. That is our proposition.
Pradyumna: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."
Prabhupāda: This, origin. So as a scientist, what is your opinion upon this?
Malcolm: It is not for me to speak.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Malcolm: It is not for me to speak.
Prabhupāda: You don't speak?
Śyāmasundara: He's a little humble. He...
Prabhupāda: So you can take it from us, from the Bhagavad-gītā, that God is the origin of everything. Earth, water, air... (Child crying.) (Aside:) Come on. He can eat?
Mother: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Give him one. Take one.
Śyāmasundara: Orange.
Prabhupāda: Come on. Come on. Yes, yes, yes. Come on. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that?
Pradyumna: When a number of people think in a certain way?
Malcolm: No. The number of people make the goal not of them, but of the number.
Paramahaṁsa: Mass. Mass opinion usually forms society.
Malcolm: Not... No, not mass opinion. Not the, not the involvement of the people, but the number of the people.
Prabhupāda: The millions and trillions number...
Śyāmasundara: By unanimous opinion, by unanimous pursuit of some goal, that becomes the common goal.
Paramahaṁsa: Fashion. Fashion?
Prabhupāda: No, therefore I say...
Malcolm: No, no. Number... I know, I... That when a number of people become beyond a certain size, that in order for that size to maintain, there becomes a code of written law whose existence is to preserve the number, and it becomes the goal of the people, and it is the goal of number and not of the people. And the people I see...
Prabhupāda: The people are numberless. Therefore the goal should be numberless? People are numberless. We cannot count. It is not possible. Therefore the goal should be also numberless?
Śyāmasundara: If the science is available to everyone without impediment, then there must be the proper teacher, isn't it? There must be a teacher of the science...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...where people learn. That has been a difficulty here. There's been no real teachers until...
Prabhupāda: No, everyone gives his own opinion. Everyone will say... He'll not dare to say that he's speaking right, scientifically. He'll say, "It is my opinion." To avoid any difficulty, he'll say, "In my opinion it is this." I think he's speaking of that, (that) there are so many people, and they have got so many opinions.
Śyāmasundara: How do we know, then, what is the real fact?
Prabhupāda: We have to understand it from a real man who knows it. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Find out that. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. So we have to approach the real person who has seen. Then you'll get the right goal of life.
Prabhupāda: No. That also... Therefore it is called sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya. Three things there are for knowledge. Sādhu, saintly person; śāstra, scripture; and guru. So one statement we have to corroborate with other statement. If you accept somebody as guru, then you have to corroborate it whether śāstra says that he is guru or any saintly person says that he is guru. This is the way. Similarly, when you take a scripture, you have to know it from the spiritual master, whether that is actually scripture, whether it is accepted by the saintly person. Sādhu. Similarly sādhu also, whether guru says, "Yes, he is sādhu." Whether śāstra says, "Yes, he is sādhu." There are three things, sādhu-śāstra-guru. So to accept one, you have to take the opinion of the other two. Then you'll get the right way. Just like who is a guru? That is stated in the śāstras. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Śāstra says, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) "One must approach a guru." Then the same question comes, "Who is guru?" That is also stated, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. "He's well-versed in Vedas, knowledge of Vedas, and fully Kṛṣṇa conscious." He is guru. Just like how do you know that here is a medical practitioner? Before going for treatment, you find out. How do you find out?
Śyāmasundara: Some friend, perhaps.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have to take information. Similarly, guru, according to śāstra, who is guru, he must be confirmed by sādhu, saintly person, by śāstra. Then he's guru. Sadhu-śāstra, guru-vākya, tinete kariyā aikya.
Haṁsadūta: What's the difference between a sādhu and a guru? Sadhu means authorities like Vyāsa?
Prabhupāda: Guru... He must be a sādhu.
Haṁsadūta: It means the previous ācāryas.
Prabhupāda: ...why not they? National. National means a living entity born in particular country. So at the present moment, the national means only human being. The animals are not nationals. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. So this kind of sinful activities are going on. Therefore renunciation means to give up these sinful activities. That is real renunciation. Otherwise, you cannot renounce anything. You have to live. And that is allowed at the cost of God. Everything belongs to God. You are son of God. So you live. But don't encroach... Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam. That is the instruction of Īśopaniṣad. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. So you have got the right to enjoy what is allotted for you. Don't encroach upon others' right. This is renunciation. But they are encroaching upon others' right. Especially the human society. And that is the cause of all troubles. Because they have no God consciousness, they have no sense about God, and there is no sense about next life... What is your opinion about life after death?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: My opinion is that an individual human being is, in life in this world, is temporarily separated from the whole of spiritual reality, and after death we rejoin the reality that we are separated from.
Prabhupāda: That is Christian idea.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. After death... But so far I know, Christian there is consideration of hell and heaven.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Somebody is going to hell, somebody's going to heaven. Is it not? After death?
Devotee: Yes, I think so.
Prabhupāda: This is the opinion of the demoniac people, that the, there is no God, there is no controller, it has come into existence by chemical reaction, just like a child is born by sex intercourse, reaction of some chemicals. This is the demonic theory. But... What is the next? Go on.
Pradyumna:
- etāṁ dṛṣṭim avaṣṭabhya
- naṣṭātmāno 'lpa-buddhayaḥ
- prabhavanty ugra-karmāṇaḥ
- kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ
- (BG 16.9)
"Following such conclusion, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world."
Śyāmasundara: He's written a book of...
Prabhupāda: During the time of Candragupta. Before Mohammedan or British rule. Long ago.
Śyāmasundara: He wrote a book of political wisdom, how to run on the state.
Prabhupāda: According to his opinion, viśvāso naiva... (someone knocks on the door) Yes? Come on. Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca. He's giving warning that "Never trust woman and politician." (laughs)
Lord Brockway: A great deal of truth in that. (laughter) Well, Your Divine Grace, I must be going.
Prabhupāda: All right. Thank you for your coming here.
Lord Brockway: It has been a great privilege to meet you.
Prabhupāda: We enjoyed your company, talked very nicely. Sometimes you come with your wife.
Lord Brockway: I would have liked that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Lord Brockway: But she didn't feel able to come tonight.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Any other day.
Śyāmasundara: Sunday afternoon or something.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their nonsense.
Dr. Inger: In other words, everything else is a plan or an excuse to escape from yourself.
Prabhupāda: That means it is a association of cheaters and cheated. Somebody wants to cheat and somebody's being cheated. That's all. That is our opinion. So how the association of cheaters and cheated can do anything good to the human society? They're cheaters. They do not know how this peace has to be attained, and they're trying to attain peace in their own way. Therefore they're cheaters. You do not a subject matter, how to do it, and you're trying to do it, that means you are cheater. It may be very strong words, but the fact is there. Why should you try something which you do not know adequately? That is our protest.
Dr. Inger: Well, many people would say that the use of the intellect alone, which is an excuse for not going deep into oneself, is the technique that is used. What can be rationally explained, only rationally explained, is what matters.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Inger: Anything where, something beyond reason, call it intuition...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is quite reasonable. When... (break)
Prabhupāda: Because they have read different interpretations. Now they want to read as it is.
Professor: That's fine. That is fine.
Prabhupāda: What, what is your opinion about interpretation?
Professor: Well, it's much better to have a commentary separated, not an interpretation given mixed with the translation. It is not to be...
Prabhupāda: It is not good. No. Yes. We cite them...
Professor: It has to be different.
Prabhupāda: No, if you have got your own opinion, you can write your own book. But you cannot interpret on the Bhagavad-gītā.
Professor: Yes, that's right. You are right.
Prabhupāda: Then the authority of Bhagavad-gītā is gone. But everyone is doing like that, even Dr. Radhakrishnan and others.
Professor: Yes. I already know...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Even Gandhi has done.
Prabhupāda: The prescribed methods are there. We have to adopt it. Without adopting the prescribed method, nobody can advance. But in this age the prescribed method is very simple. Simply to hear the holy name of the Lord.
- harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam
- kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
- (CC Adi 17.21)
So an urge for understanding God, there is, after struggle for material sense gratification. Bodily concept of life means material sense gratification. The Western world is after that, material sense gratification. One who is little advanced, he wants to know more than material sense gratification. That is good sign and those who are simply absorbed in material sense gratification, they are in the lower stage of animal life. So what is the present civilization, Western, what is your opinion? What they are for?
Guest (2): I don't know actually. I'm a doc. I'm trying to find some answer but what difference does it make? Suppose a person thinks of God all his life and dies, and a person who doesn't think of God at all also dies. What is our life after death?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): Then why do we have to think of God? Why do we have to forget about the material world?
Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that there is life after death.
Prabhupāda: ...haya sarva-nāśa. Read the English translation.
Pradyumna: "Śaṅkarācārya, who is an incarnation of Lord Śiva, is faultless because he is servant carrying out the orders of the Lord, but those who follow his Māyāvādī philosophy are doomed. They will lose all their advancement in spiritual knowledge."
Prabhupāda: This is the opinion of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Anyone who hears Śaṅkara's comment on Vedānta philosophy, he is doomed.
Professor: That's about it.
Prabhupāda: What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "Māyāvādī philosophers are very proud of exhibiting their Vedānta knowledge through grammatical jugglery, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad-gītā certifies that they are māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15), bereft of real knowledge due to māyā. Māyā has two potencies with which to execute her two functions: prakṣepātmikā..."
Prabhupāda: Prakṣepātmikā.
Prabhupāda: This is his knowledge.
Professor: But his interpretations are...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. Why he should interpret in that way? Kṛṣṇa personally says that "You become My devotee." And he says "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, the person." Why? He has no right to say like that. This way, these people mislead. If he is commenting on Bhagavad-gītā, he must present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Why he gives his own opinion? If I say, "Give me a glass of water," how you cay say, "No, it is not to him?" How you can say? Is that very good thing? That Radhakrishnan has done. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. He says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, person." Just see. Do you think he has got the right to do so?
Professor: No, but I don't think Radhakrishnan's commentaries are...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Just see. It is there.
Professor: They are very incorrect often, and uh...
Prabhupāda: He has done this. You can see from...
Professor: Yes, but there's a translation by Franklin Edgarton (?) of the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Translation is all right, but his commentation is wrong. Translation is all right. I know. That's very nice. It is done by some Englishman. Eh?
Prabhupāda: They give this example that: "You also kill vegetables, just this grass blade is broken. It is killed. So it is equal to maintaining a big slaughterhouse." You see? This is going on, under the name of re... They, they were Christian nuns. In London they come to me, talk some time. So... And in India also, we see now cow killing is going on, regular slaughterhouse and... What can I say? You are government man. (laughs) You may take some wrong views about me. What is your opinion, personal?
Ambassador: I'm afraid I'm a very democratic person. If people, if they sincerely believe that they cannot exist without meat, they should be permitted, and once that is granted...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Ambassador: ...you have to organize slaughterhouses.
Prabhupāda: Then, then that is the, our misfortune that we have lost our Indian culture.
Ambassador: Because...
Prabhupāda: Indian culture.
Ambassador: Your Grace, what you want is really a sort of complete...
Prabhupāda: No, I don't want.
Ambassador: ...a strong, obedient, disciplined society. But the moment the disciplinarian becomes a dictator, it is...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Strong government means that, that government should be very, very vigilant that citizens are doing their duty properly. That is the first duty. They should be given all protection. At the same time... Just like the father gives protection to the children, at the same time, very strict that they are morally and disciplinary, they are going, coming out nice. That is father's duty. It is government's duty. If the father thinks, "Let my son go to hell. I don't care. I give them some food. That's all." Is that father's duty? No. Father's duty, to arrange for their food, for their dress, for their shelter, at the same time, to see that they are growing nice, not rascals. That is father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that. We see from Vedic śāstra government duty is that. Otherwise why there is need of government? Government... Now it is government. But formerly it was the king. The king must be representative of God. Because... Who is God? God means nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kaṭhopaniṣad. So God, what is God? God means He's also person. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. He is also eternal, He's also cognizant. We are also eternal, we are also cognizant. But what is the difference between God and we? The difference is He maintains us. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Bahu-vacanam, nityānām, cetanānām, this is bahu-vacanam. And nityaḥ, cetanaḥ, eka-vacanam. So what is the difference between this singular number and plural number? The singular number is maintaining the plural number. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. So God is maintaining everyone. So difference is that He is so powerful, He can maintain every living entity. He's maintaining the elephants in Africa, who eat, at a time, forty kilos. He's supplying food. There's no scarcity of food in the jungle for the elephants. Neither there is scarcity... In the hole of your room, you'll find hundreds and thousands of ui. Who is feeding them, within the hole? Unless they're eating, sleeping, the same thing are there. How they are living very nicely? But who is giving them food within the hole? A small hole. You did not provide that hole. You did not provide their food. But there are hundreds and millions of ants. They're living there within the hole very happily. Sometimes they come out. We see: "Oh, wherefrom so many hundreds coming?" So eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. That is God. He's supplying food. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. Out of that, 400,000 are human beings. Out of that, many are uncivilized. The uncivilized aborigines live in the jungle. They have no economic problem. They're also human being. They never come to city for food. They are maintaining themselves. The elephants are maintaining. The ants are maintaining. Why the civilized, a few men, they have got so problem, so many problems? Because they... We are not the only living entities. There are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. They're all being maintained by the Supreme Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ: (BG 14.4) "As many forms are there, in all different species," ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā, "I am the Father." The father maintains the sons, as we see actually. He's maintaining. So why you are so much...? Our father is rich. He's not poor. God is not poor. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇa. Six kinds of opulence fully. So why are you talking of this over-population, scarcity of food? Why? Actually the father is God. He's maintaining. And factually we see how many human beings, civilized human beings, are there. The other living beings are many hundred thousand times bigger quantity. If they can be maintained by God, what we have done, that He'll not maintain us? He'll maintain us. He's maintaining. So many people they say, "India is starving." I am Indian. I never see any man starving and died. I've never seen. This is simply advertisement. What is your opinion?
Prabhupāda: No, I'm talking of...
Ambassador: To me, Gītā means Gandhi's Gītā which said in a very distorted, very limited version...
Prabhupāda: Gandhi did not know anything about Bhagavad-gītā.
Ambassador: (laughs) I understand him best.
Prabhupāda: Well, you... Gandhi may give his opinion, but why he should give through Bhagavad-gītā?
Ambassador: I know. Anāsakta-yoga is really...
Prabhupāda: He should not take advantage of... That is being done. Everyone is taking advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gītā and he's expressing his own opinion.
Ambassador: That's true.
Prabhupāda: This is going on. We want to stop this nonsense. If you have got opinion, you write different book.
Ambassador: Yes. But not...
Prabhupāda: Why you should misuse Bhagavad-gītā.
Ambassador: The devil can quote the scripture for his purpose.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Ambassador: That's what Shakespeare said, sir, "The devil can quote the scripture for his purpose."
Ambassador: Śrī Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: Similar, another fifty-four volumes is to be published.
Ambassador: Oh, it's a tremendous undertaking.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Ambassador: Whatever might be the difference of opinion about the, you know, the subtleties, you see, this itself is very great.
Prabhupāda: And we have given each meaning of... You can see the Sanskrit verse, how we have explained. Here and in America especially, as soon as they see, they purchase the whole set. Six copies. See.
Ambassador: Beautiful. Very, very elegant English also. (Reads Sanskrit verse:) Brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam avyalīka-vratādṛtaḥ. And then you, you make it easy. Actually, it's...
Prabhupāda: Transliteration also.
Ambassador: ...It's for students also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Transliteration.
Ambassador: Yes. Transliteration and then (Sanskrit) and then...
Prabhupāda: Translation.
Ambassador: Viccheda. How long will Your Divine Grace be here?
Prabhupāda: Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Nobody knows. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, from one body to another, we are doing that, every moment, but these rascals, they do not know. I was a child, I was a boy. Where is that body? It is gone. It is a fact. I am in a different body. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Still, they won't believe that there is life after death. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ we are experiencing in this life. But they won't believe that after this deha, there is another deha. That they won't believe, such dull-headed. (Hindi) Are they dull-headed or (are) they intelligent scholar and scientist? What is your opinion? What is your opinion? You are practical man. (break) That is later on, so 'ham. First of all, understand what you are aham, then so 'ham. You do not know what is aham. So these rascals, they do not know aham, and they're speaking, so 'ham. (break) When you understand yourself, then you understand God also. Then you'll understand that God and yourself are of the same ingredient, so 'ham. Just like if I say, so 'ham. "I am just like Indira Gandhi." Indira Gandhi is the big personality. So, "I am as good as Indira Gandhi." So this is applicable in this sense, that Indira Gandhi is Indian. I am also Indian. Indira Gandhi is a human being. I am also a human being. In this way, go on, analytical study. You'll find so many things, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. But still, you are not Indira Gandhi. So so 'ham means to understand that I am not this matter. I am the spirit soul, as good as the Supreme Lord. But that does not mean I am Supreme Lord, or as good as Supreme Lord. Qualitatively, I am one, not quantitatively. Just like a drop of water from the sea. (aside:) You can come here. (break) All the chemicals in the drop of the sea water, you'll find in the sea also. But still, the drop of water is not equal to the sea. So so 'ham means qualitatively one with God, the Supreme. That not means that "I am the Supreme Lord." That is nonsense.
Guest (1): Ahaṁ sa brahma.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: But my intention was to start this movement.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: I was simply planning in different way. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's favor. I never deviated from this plan. Since I heard it from my Guru Mahārāja, I've simply planning how to do it successfully. But I thought at that time, that "I'll be able to do it if I get some money. Let me do some business for the time." That I was thinking. But Kṛṣṇa said, "Even if you are pauper, you try; you'll get everything." But I thought, "Without money, how this can be done?" That was difference of opinion with Kṛṣṇa, argument. And I was dreaming also, Guru Mahārāja, asking me, "Come on." So I was going. So I was, "Oh, I have to go? I have to take sannyāsa?"
Śyāmasundara: You, you dreaming?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru Mahārāja said, "Come, come with me." I was going. But that... Many things happened before this. Yes. And at last it became, in America.
Śyāmasundara: Did you tell everyone you were leaving, or you simply disappeared?
Prabhupāda: No, I never said. Oh, why shall I? I lost all friends, money, everything.
Guru dāsa: I met one gentleman from Allahabad... (Apparently someone comes in)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Guru dāsa: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Umāpati: It's very popular to put all philosophies in the same... "Well, that's philosophy," they say. They say that "Everybody has his opinion. That's your opinion," they say.
Prabhupāda: No.
Umāpati: So no one will accept any kind of superior philosophy. It's very difficult to discuss these things among them.
Prabhupāda: No, then everyone, if becomes superior, then where is the question of philosophy? If everyone is superior himself, then there is no question of philosophy. Is there any necessity? You are superior, I am superior; then where is the question of discussing philosophy?
Umāpati: That is trying to be God. He's trying... Then we are always God.
Prabhupāda: Then philosophy becomes null and void. As soon as everyone becomes his own authority, then philosophy becomes null and void. There is no necessity of philosophy.
Umāpati: That is the difficulty of our age.
Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals. Mūḍhāḥ. If you do not accept philosophy, you do not accept authority, that means all rascals.
Prabhupāda: Because He wanted you to remain a fool. He wanted. Because you are atheist, He wanted that you shall remain ever fool. That is God's business. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān yoniṣu (BG 16.19). These atheistic class, they remain always fools. Kṛṣṇa gives him birth in such a family, in such a country, in such a posi..., that he remains fools. He remains always fool. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Yaśomatīnandana: Prabhupāda, it's like the barber giving opinion on the science of medicine. It's like barber giving opinion on the science of medicine. Because the materialistic person, they claim to be expert of material science, and still, they want to give opinion on the spiritual science.
Prabhupāda: No, no, they are not even expert of material science. They are expert in bluffing others things with jugglery of words. That's it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they're saying that it was not done before, like telephones and these airplanes and these new discoveries.
Prabhupāda: Well, there were better telephones. You do not know it. Just like Sañjaya is sitting with his master, Dhṛtarāṣṭra, and he's relaying all the war affairs going on. He asked, kim akurvata sañjaya: (BG 1.1) "What did they do?" But he was sitting in the room. Where is your that telephone? It is television within the heart. He is seeing everything and relay. Bhagavad-gītā, don't you see? Sañjaya uvāca, dhṛtarāṣṭra uvāca. Dhṛtarāṣṭra inquired, "Now, after meeting my sons and nephews, what they are doing?" And he's relaying, "Now Duryodhana is going to see Droṇācārya. Droṇācārya says like this. Bhīṣmadeva says..." How does he say within the room? But you know that science?
Prabhupāda: Without preaching, without understanding philosophy, you cannot keep your strength. Everyone should be thoroughly well-conversed with the philosophy which we are putting... That means you must read thoroughly every day. So many books we have got. And Bhāgavata is so perfect that any verse you read, you get a new enlightenment. It is so nice. Either Bhagavad-gītā or Bhāgavata. But it is not ordinary writing.
Umāpati: I have tried to put your Bhagavad-gītā into some schools, and they say, "Well," some of them, if they do have a Bhagavad-gītā, they say, "Well, we have a Bhagavad-gītā." I say, "This is an entirely different understanding of the Bhagavad-gītā," and they say, "Well, it's just somebody else's opinion and we don't have that much interest in a variety of opinions on the same book."
Prabhupāda: It is not the opinion. We are placing the..., as it is, without opinion.
Umāpati: Well. Those are those terms. It is very difficult to overcome those...
Prabhupāda: So preaching is always difficult. That I have repeatedly saying. You cannot take preaching very easy-going. Preaching must be fight. Do you mean to say fighting is easy thing? Fighting is not easy thing. Whenever there is fight, there is danger, there is responsibility. So preaching means... What is the preaching? Because people are ignorant, we have to enlighten them. That is preaching.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: When you came to the western world, no one anywhere believed that it would be successful I think. But actually, it has become very successful, by preaching.
Prabhupāda: I myself did not believe I shall be successful, what to speak of others, but because I did in the proper line, so it has become successful.
Prabhupāda: ...need of God or not? Whether there is need of God?
Prajāpati: The scientists say no, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom.
Prajāpati: They say there's neither need, nor usefulness.
Prabhupāda: That is their rascaldom. What is your opinion, scientist? There is need of God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They may say that there is no necessity, but the fact is that there must be.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise they, we cannot conceive of how things are going on.
Prabhupāda: Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Just like in the modern days, government, they have abolished monarchism, but still, why they elect a president? Why?
Prajāpati: Must be leadership.
Prabhupāda: Must be. That is the point. If you have abolished monarchy, then why you are electing another rascal to become a monarch? What is the answer? Why do you need it?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they need law and order.
Prabhupāda: So these rascals will change every year their theology. So what is the value of their words? Childish. (break) ...changes, he is a rascal. That is our... We say, "Kṛṣṇa the Supreme." We never change it. And "Surrender is the only process." We shall never change it. In any circumstance we will not change it. That is the difference. And these rascals will change every year their opinion. They are rascals. (break) ...They are rascals. (break) Kṛṣṇa said that "I am the Supreme." So Arjuna accepted, the Supreme. All the ācāryas accepted the Supreme. Caitanya Mahāprabhu accepted, Supreme. My Guru Mahārāja accepted, Supreme. I am accepting, Supreme. I am teaching the same thing. So there is no change. Not that after a few years it will be changed. That never be. That is our position. (break) Changing means material. Anything material is susceptible to change. Like this material body. I am changing my body, but I am the spirit soul. I am not changing. That is the difference. So all these so-called theologicians, they have no idea what is spiritual knowledge. All rascals. They cannot understand what is God. That I have explained. Simply speculating. It will not help. (break) (Hindi) (some Indian people have joined the walk) Now we are talking of one theologician. Some years ago just... Narrate the... Yes.
Prajāpati: This basic thesis of the leading theologian in our country... He's saying that the poor people are closer to God and God is specifically looking on their cause more than anyone else. He's at Harvard University.
Prabhupāda: But the one thing is, who is poor? Admitting. We admit, of course, that God is specially interested with the fallen or degraded. But first thing is that who is fallen? Who is poor? That is to be ascertained.
Guest (1) (Indian man): But there is one more thing. I don't think God could be so partial that He would...
Prabhupāda: No, that is very rarely. Sugrīva forgot. Anyway, there is chance of such thing because the distressed man, although he is pious, as soon as his distress is moved, then he forgets. There is such chance. Therefore ārto arthārthī jñānī jijñāsuḥ. Four classes of men. So ārto arthārthī. They, after benefiting by the grace of God, they may forget. But those who are jñānī, they will not forget. That is the difference. So these theologicians, they are changing their opinion. What is that, Karandhara, you said?
Karandhara: Well, another very prominent psychiatrist and theologian, about ten years ago he wrote a very famous book wherein he said that people should give up the idea of evil and sin because it is just an inhibition on the mind. But now he just wrote another book saying that he was wrong, and since people have given up the idea of sin and evil, the whole world has degraded to such a bad state that now, even though there may not be a God, they should still believe in evil just to keep things in order.
Prabhupāda: Then if there is no God, then who will judge what is evil and what is right? If there is no God? People are abiding the law, "Keep to the right, keep to the left," because they know, "Behind this order, there is government." If he does not keep the arrangement, then he will be punished. So as soon as you accept the principles of bad and good, then you have to accept God. Now, this kind of theologician, some years ago his opinion was something, and now his opinion is different.
Guest (1): I think they keep on changing their opinion according to the world condition...
Prabhupāda: But they say that.
Guest (1): No sir. I am attending their lectures, classes, and discussing with them.
Prabhupāda: Vivekananda's philosophy is yata mata tata patha: "Whatever you have got, your opinion, that is all right." They organize Kālī-kīrtana in competition to...
Guest (1): Yes, in their mandira. In the mandira. In the mandira their kīrtana is Kālī-kīrtana.
Prabhupāda: But that is not recommended in the śāstra. Śāstra is: śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23).
Guest (1): You are right, but then when it comes to... That was why it was outdoor kīrtana. And they said if they come, they can be our guests and they called the kīrtana out to do what they like. He said, "So that is how..."
Prabhupāda: Which car? No, it is my auto? (break)
Jagajjīvana: We don't have that many Spanish books.
Prabhupāda: English books.
Jagajjīvana: A small fair. Thousands of people go to this flower festival in the mountains, and we went in, and they let us in and we chanted and hundreds of people came to chant. And then the officials came to stop us.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Prabhupāda: Sujit, oh. (Bengali conversation regarding his being a student of science, chemistry and plastics engineering, and Śrīla Prabhupāda tells him that he attended Scottish Churches' College) (break) ...astrology?
Sujit: What is my opinion?
Prabhupāda: No. I am asking scientist.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: First of all I did not believe astrology in the beginning. I thought it was a pseudo science.
Prabhupāda: No, you may think, but what is the opinion of the scientist?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, scientists would say that there is no background.
Prabhupāda: So how it so happens?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they say something which cannot be proved by experimental science, that does not work, calling science.
Prabhupāda: So then how do you say that life is from matter? That cannot be proved by experiment.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why they are going to prove it. They are trying to prove it.
Prabhupāda: Then again, "going to prove." They cannot prove, they'll not not admit it.
Prabhupāda: Well, in politics, unless there is violence, you cannot take. Simply by sweet words, not possible. That was the difference between our political leaders, Mahatma Gandhi and Subhash Chandra Bose. So Subhash Chandra Bose was of opinion that—and that is a fact—that "You are agitating non-violence. These people will never care for your non-violence. Unless there is violence, so these Britishers will never go away." So Gandhi would say, "No, I am not going to accept this violence theory. I shall continue." So for thirty years... He started from 1917 and up to '47, the Britishers did not go. But when Subhash Chandra Bose, he saw... He took the political power. He became the president. But Gandhi was angry. So because he was old leader, out of respect, he resigned the presidentship. Then he though that "So long this man will live, there will be no independence." So he went out of India and joined with Hitler, and Tojo, Japanese.
Nitāi: Who went out of India?
Prabhupāda: This Subhash Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers... They were great politicians. They saw, "Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be." Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see? They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia, and the Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that "For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army." Actually, they were expanding their empire. Africa, Burma. And when they saw that "India is lost," voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back... Back to home, back to Godhead. (devotees laugh) So in politics this is nonsense, non-violence. It is nonsense, cowardism. In politics in sweet words you cannot get. There must be fight, arms. That is army. "If you don't agree, then fist." That is politics. There must be violence. Otherwise you cannot control. When there is educated good men, then you can argue. But when people are ruffians, there is no question of good... Argumentum vaculum, I told you the other day... (break) ...in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devāsura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there. French revolution was there. In England, Cromwell? Cromwell? Cromwell Revolution?
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: ...disciple has read it that from government side there is an article that in Iranian country they want meat, so all these skinny cows should be killed and meat should be exported so that you can get oil economically. So one should not think of this religious sentiment. They should be practical. They should not object. Government is going to open many slaughterhouse to get oil, and kill these loitering, mischief loitering cows, no food. Like that. So government policy is that religious (indistinct) is an opiate of the (indistinct). It is a sentiment. It has no value. That is government conclusion. So therefore their decision is not to encourage these temples and this bhajana. To their point of view, it is useless. So indirectly or directly, they will patronize this. So under the circumstances, we have to make vigorous propaganda, public opinion. You see? Therefore I suggest that various meetings should be arranged in big, big halls and public meeting so that public may understand, at least, that this movement is very important. And let there be advertisement, different subject matter, to invite people here. They may come. Then I will explain. And all my students and others, they may hold, arrange for pan... I'll also speak. In that meeting make a nice gentleman president. In this way, create public opinion so that they will come here and they will sign this, "Yes, here must be one temple." Take signatures and...
Guest (Indian man): Signatures of them.
Prabhupāda: Uncivilized. A similar thing is happening in India where the civilization is supposed to be so... And actually it is so, but they have become so degraded that a responsible officer in the government, he is saying that "Bhajana is nuisance." You see. He has no knowledge what, how much valuable, spiritually valuable, bhajana is. In the Bhagavad-gītā... Gandhi accepted Bhagavad-gītā. It is said, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛti... Gandhi was chanting in temple: Raghupati rāghava. So what they are following? Gandhi was against drinking and intoxication. Now they're introducing. So this is the position of the government. Therefore I suggest that according to the word, so far traffic, we are diverting the ways this way. And let people come here, join with bhajana, take prasādam, and they sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." Let this. And make propaganda that people may come here, and... I am present here. I will speak. The same thing, as it is going on, kīrtana and speaking from Bhagavad-gītā. And after they are convinced, let them sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." In this way, gather public opinion, one point, that bhajana is not nuisance, essential, we want it, and the other thing, we are making gate in and out to get... Submit a plan like that, that this is... There will be no... That may be a small road, lane, but here is a big road. And purchase that land in front and make a gate. Call a good architects, make a nice gate and road. Take this proposition. Our business is there. If we invite people, "Come..." Even without temple, if it is go on like that, people may come and take prasādam, and they give their consent, "Yes, it is nice," that is sufficient. Even there is no temple. Then, if such way, public opinion's created, and the sanction is there, immediately there will be temple. It may take some time. It doesn't matter. So far satyagraha (?) is concerned, it will be useless. Hungry people, they are making satyagraha, and they are replied with fire, killing them. In Patna it has become so.
Prabhupāda: No, that they will understand that because you are one of them and this is the...
Guest: No, no. I...
Prabhupāda: ...that your idea means our idea, carried.
Guest: Not necessarily. (break)
Prabhupāda: Officially it is not. Officially it is not. But being the family member, this is the family opinion.
Guest: Certainly, it's my honest opinion.
Prabhupāda: But the thing is I want to do something solid.
Guest: No, but what I say is my...
Prabhupāda: Even if you write, they'll not take care very much.
Guest: No, but, uh, I am hopeful.
Prabhupāda: You are hopeful, but I am thinking in otherwise, that...
Guest: Unless they have got some...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest: From Delhi.
Prabhupāda: Any, no reason. No reason. No reason. "We don't want you."
Guest: Without finding any reason. But if that's so, then we may propagate, try to get another, then they'll again take the same action, because they'll know that we are trying to create the public opinion against the government. They can again take the same action of removing the boys.
Prabhupāda: No, same action, but that is our propaganda, preach.
Guest: Then on the propaganda also, the principle is same. Then they will remove them.
Prabhupāda: That we are already doing. We are holding meeting.
Yaśomatīnandana: We are not going to preach against them.
Guest: No, no, here...
Yaśomatīnandana: We will simply present our philosophy.
Guest: No, but your philosophy is only, you see, you are taking the signatures. So they will know, they'll see, any department will know that you are taking signatures.
Yaśomatīnandana: Oh yes. We won't say that they are rascals, we will just say...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Any gentleman says... It is right? If I ask a child, "What is this?" What he'll say? "It is hand." Will he say, "It is head"? Then? You are speaking like less than a child.
Dr. Patel: That is what I am.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, Mr. Sar!
Dr. Patel: No, he will not say anything because he's a baniya (?). He'll reserve his opinion.
Guest (4) (Indian man): To answer the scripture... (break)
Prabhupāda: No, no. Vedic system is...
Guest (3): You know, all these... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Arjuna. In the beginning he was arguing, but when he saw it is useless, he said, śādhi māṁ prapannam. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). That is required.
Guest (3): Guru expects from you that thing... (break)
Prabhupāda: Actually, it is a process, a guru should not instruct anybody who is not a disciple.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupāda: Because he's not submissive, it is useless waste of time. That is... That is the... Guru should not speak to anyone...
Dr. Patel: Therefore you are speaking to me. So I am... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...people everywhere good.
Dr. Patel: But the Russians are really good.
Prabhupāda: Only the... People everywhere, all over the world, they are all good. Only the leaders make them bad. That's all. That is my opinion. Misleaders. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). The so-called śreṣṭha, leaders, they... Just like in India. When Gandhi was there it was prohibition, and now there is wine shop every step. It is due to the leaders. People, people, what the innocent people, what they'll do?
Dr. Patel: You are talking of this, but I am the knower of the private character of so many businessman.
Prabhupāda: Why you know? Everyone knows.
Dr. Patel: They have got so many women outside, and some of them want every day new one. All sorts of rascals they are. (break) Raja should rule, and not these...
Prabhupāda: Asaṁskṛtāḥ kriyā-hīnāḥ.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Everyone, all people, not only the ministers.
Dr. Patel: But yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad itaro janaḥ (BG 3.21).
Prabhupāda: But I saw and offer my obeisances to your motorcar. (laughter) I was thinking that "Dr. Patel's representative, the car is here."
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Because we are trained to all the accredited saints of India, to whatever opinion...
Prabhupāda: Our business is to point out who is not a saint.
Dr. Patel: But don't point us out. We want the tree to be a saint.
Prabhupāda: That is our business. Preacher must be. (Hindi) (break) ...can I speak something? Because their position is to take Ramakrishna as a saintly person. Saintly person there may be. Just like Rāvaṇa. He also underwent severe penances, but just to fulfill his personal desire, or Rāvaṇa was so devotee of Lord Śiva that he was cutting his head and offering to the Deity. Is it? You know, everyone?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So why he is called rākṣasa, not a saintly person? What is the reason?
Mahāṁsa: Because he was trying to en...
Prabhupāda: ...the statement in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catur: "Unless one is very, very extraordinarily intelligent, he cannot be a devotee of Kṛṣṇa." Svalpa-puṇya-vatāṁ rājan viśvāso naiva jāyate.
- mahā-prasāde govinde
- nāma-brahmaṇi vaiṣṇave
- svalpa-puṇya-vatāṁ rājan
- viśvāso naiva jāyate
This is the statement of the śāstras: "Those who are less pious, they cannot believe in Kṛṣṇa and mahā-prasāda, and the holy name." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam (BG 7.28). So you have given some medicine. (break) ...na bhinnam. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. So the medical, anyone, lawyer, medical man, although they are very advanced in science, they have got difference of opinion.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise these modern researches would not have been brought into existence if there was no difference.
Prabhupāda: No, that is their nature, to differ. That is the nature. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam: "He is not a muni if he does not differ with other muni."
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's it. Muni does not speak. Maunam. (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes. They say it is ordinary necessities. (break) Therefore we call mūḍhās. They do not know what is what.
Dr. Patel: I think Abraham Lincoln was the best of the whole presidents. What is your opinion, Abraham Lincoln?
Girirāja: Well, moist stool or dry...
Prabhupāda: He gave the negroes freedom, Abraham Lincoln?
Girirāja: Yes, emancipation.
Dr. Patel: The Americans say he acted with negroes just we have acted with the aboriginals, the Āryans. What have we done with the poor aboriginals of India?
Prabhupāda: We have... (break) "...one sect. Because we are sitting in Haridvar, and people will come here. And A.C. Bhaktivedanta, he is going." So...
Dr. Patel: Bhaktivedanta has formed a canal to take the spiritual India.
Prabhupāda: So they are now envious. (break) Abaddha karuṇā sindhu, katiya mohan, abaddha karuṇā sindhu, katiya mohan... That "All men, you take..." "Nityānanda has cut open the stagnant water, and now it is overflooded." Like that. Abaddha karuṇā sindhu... (break) Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said,
- pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma
- sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma
- (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126)
- that this is business. Not that pṛthivī loka will come. You have to go and preach.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is the greatest miracle. These trees, not fruit trees?
Dhanañjaya: No. (break)
Yogeśvara: ...is that "Okay, you present Bhagavad-gītā as being the evidence for Kṛṣṇa, but so many people interpret Bhagavad-gītā. So where is the proof that it is miraculous if so many people debate it?"
Prabhupāda: What they will debate? If they debate like rascal, that is another thing. If they debate like sane man, then there cannot be any difference of opinion. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). So what is your debate on this point, that living entities, they flourish by food grains? So what is your debate on this point?
Yogeśvara: Well, they may agree that the teachings are good, but they can't accept it as proof that Kṛṣṇa was God.
Prabhupāda: Well, then you have to give me definition of God. What is God? If you know God, then you can say that "Kṛṣṇa is not God." Otherwise, how you can say He is not God? I give you a piece of gold: If you say, "It is not gold," then you show me what is gold. Otherwise, you are talking nonsense. If you do not know the things as it is, how you can say, "It is not this"? If you know the positive, then you can say the negative.
Yogeśvara: Well, there are many people who say that they have actually experienced God.
Prabhupāda: What is that God? Tell me.
Yogeśvara: Well, it's like the Guru Maharaji people. They say they've seen Guru Maharaji lifting Govardhana Hill and displaying universal form and so many miracles. They say they have seen Guru Maharaji doing all the miracles that Kṛṣṇa claims to have done.
Prabhupāda: In Africa and Australia, they are killing the animals and exporting. So in other countries they are getting meat to eat, and so they are very free to produce bolts and nuts by industry. They don't require to produce food because from Africa and Australia they are getting meat. This is going on. Instead of producing food, people are interested in producing motor car bolts and nuts. So why there should not be food scarcity? After all, you require to eat. But instead of starting industries, why don't you produce foodstuff? What is this civilization? Produce foodstuff. The animals will be nicely fed, and the men will be nicely fed.
Richard Webster: What civilization there is comes chiefly from the television, I'm afraid. I mean the public opinion is made by the television.
Atreya Ṛṣi: The television today is setting up the standard for the civilization, for today's civilization.
Richard Webster: But they talk about nothing but name war (?) and...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) pictures.
Richard Webster: It's much easier. They're producing more television sets (indistinct)
C. Hennis: That's UNESCO. That I can't answer upon very fully. But I would suggest that they are, in that way UNESCO, United Nations through UNESCO, is very active in promoting culture and in stimulating philosophical thought. We are, on our side are more concerned with the place of the worker in society, and our organization is conceived along a peculiar model which we call the tripartite system. The members of our organization are states, not governments, but states, and each state is represented in our conference by two government delegates, one delegate of the employers and one delegate of the workers. And so the decisions that are reached, the same pattern goes down through the other organs of the organization. But the decisions that are reached in the International Labor Organization are thus not decisions which are only those of the government or the governing classes. They are decisions which represent a very broad consensus of opinions between both the employers and the workers as well as governments. And to that extent we do hope to find resolutions that have a very wide basis of ratification. After they are agreed upon by these three different elements of society represented in our International Labor Conference and in the other organs of the International Labor Organization, we endeavor to get the decisions ratified by national governments. Nevertheless the people who are here go back to their countries and try and get the decisions ratified so that a measure of uniformity in social justice and in the treatment of labor and protection of labor and in social security and in occupational safety and health and of all these things which are bound up with work and also payments to professional workers such as architects, nurses, doctors, people who work on a quite independent basis without being employed. It's not necessarily employees. Veterinarians and so on. The conditions of employment...
Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conception, the higher class of men, first-class, second class, third class, they are never to be employed. They remain free. Only the fourth class men, they are employed.
Prabhupāda: So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is... Especially in the western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma-Purāṇa, there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, statement that "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "Perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No. 900,000 specifically. So how do they get this knowledge, exactly seeing? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (?). Now, in another place, the magnitude of the soul is explained. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (CC Madhya 19.140). In the Upaniṣad also it is stated that 10,000th part of the top of the hair point, is the magnitude of the soul. Our knowledge is accepted in that way, Vedic knowledge. Whatever is stated in the Vedas, that is taken as Absolute Truth and we accept it. And that is fact. If you go to the same point by experimental truth, you will come to the same conclusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes, truth is for everyone—if it is truth. Truth cannot be different. Chinese truth is different from Indian truth. That cannot be. Truth is the truth, provided it is truth. You take something myth as truth—that is different thing. So the truth is that this body is formed on the basis of that spiritual spark. That is the truth.
Dr. Sallaz: For our opinion, scientific knowledges, they speak about the genetic code, and for us, the genetic code is very simple, and we have prepared a revolution, for instance, in the genetic questions in replacing the thousand of books of explanation, scientific, with a single truth, and this truth explains all the genetic code, very simple. (break)
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the energy comes?
Dr. Sallaz: From where it comes, our poor human knowledge cannot gain something precise about it. We must believe it—it comes from very high—but to explain it scientifically is completely foolish. That is our opinion. And further, as I said to you when looked at everywhere, if I take India, explain it coming here, that... I received it about ten or twelve years ago. That is what the Christians would speak about, a mystery, something extraordinary. I received from a holy man in India, with which I was corresponding from time to time. Without asking, I received a big book in Sanskrit. I could not understand a word about it. Well, I put it aside preciously...
Prabhupāda: What is that book?
Prabhupāda: Because the man who is awarding him Nobel Prize, he is also a rascal, (laughs) and he is also rascal. The society of rascals, that's all. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, therefore, "This is a society of cheaters and cheated." That's all. Somebody is cheater, and somebody is cheated. And they have made a civilization of cheaters and cheated. That's all. They have got good sense. They have... Just try to utilize it. Just like last night that gentleman, "In my opinion..." He never thinks that what he is, what is the value of his opinion. But he thinks, "In my opinion..." And what is this nonsense? What is your opinion? Then he admits "No, no, I have no objection." That is progress, that he admitted his fault. What is the value of your opinion? I said, "We have no opinion. We take the opinion of Kṛṣṇa, that's all." We have no opinion.
Guru-gaurāṅga: You caught him in the end, though, when you said, "If Kṛṣṇa is man, then this is no value." And then he said, "How do you know Kṛṣṇa really spoke this? How do you know this is really Kṛṣṇa?" So actually, he just did not accept Kṛṣṇa from the beginning.
Prabhupāda: No. He thinks that "Kṛṣṇa is a bigger philosopher, that's all. And I am also philosopher. So He has got His opinion, I have got my opinion. That's all." They think that. That is described, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ: (BG 9.11) "These rascals thinks Me as one of him, one like him." Mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ. Therefore Dr. Radhakrishnan and other rascals like him, they think, "Why Kṛṣṇa shall say, 'Surrender unto Me?' This is sophistry." What is the meaning of sophistry?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Sophist is half-wise and half-foolish.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He thinks that "I am as good philosopher as Kṛṣṇa. Why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa? I have got my own opinion." He thinks like that. And that rascal is writing commentary on Bhagavad-gītā. And it is selling also. Therefore we presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, not a rascal ism.
Yogeśvara: People buy his book because he is the former president of India. They think he's authority.
Prabhupāda: That's all. He does not know that he is a fool number one, fully under the con... Now his position. I saw him in Madras.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Paralyzed, paralyzed.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you cannot recognize. And he gives his opinion. Just see. Nobody thinks that "If I am not controlled, I do not wish to die, why there is death? I do not wish to become old. Why there is old age?" A common sense. "I do not wish to be diseased. Why there is disease? And still, I am thinking that I am not controlled." That means no brain even, common sense. Piśācī pāile yena mati-cchanna haya. Just like ghostly haunted, madman. He stands on the st..., "I am the king." He stands on the street. It is like that. He does not know, "At any moment I will be knocked by any car and I shall die." But he thinks like, "I am the king." Madman. They are all madmen.
Prabhupāda: Ignorances. They have opined, they have given the opinion that children born between the ages of twenty years and thirty-six years, they are healthy. But we have got experience that children born even at..., in India, twelve, thirteen years, they were healthy.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They were what, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Satsvarūpa: The parents were twelve or thirteen. The children were healthy. But this magazine said that children are healthy if the parents are from twenty-one to thirty-six.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: In the Bhāgavatam, you said that by the age of sixteen, a girl should be married, or twenty-four for a man. We were just reading that...
Prabhupāda: That is the maximum.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: We were just reading that.
Prabhupāda: The point is that supposing this twenty to thirty-six years is nice age... For women. But before twenty years, she is sacked, and her health is broken. What she'll produce, children? Because this is... The girls, from twelve years, thirteen years, nowadays, they begin sex.
Prabhupāda: No, they follow.
Devotee: They say our only...
Prabhupāda: But they are manufacture their own philosophy. Philosophy there must be. They've become their own authority. That is a chaotic condition. Authority he has made himself. Yes. I am my authority. Authority has to accept. But he does not know that I am fool No. 1, what is the value of my authority? Authority he must accept. But he makes himself his authority. That is the tendency now. "In my opinion." All rascals say like that. "In my opinion." He does not... He's rascal No. 1, what is the value of his opinion? But he'll say, "In my opinion." That is the difficulty. And this is called creative philosophy. Is it not?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is going on. All rascals have creative philosophy.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: When I hear in the United States there's a saying, a slogan, amongst the young people: "Do your own thing." And also in India now when I go there they say, "So many men, so many minds."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Vivekananda. Yata mata tata patha. That means everyone can become authority. This is their philosophy.
Satsvarūpa: And this they praised as good.
Prabhupāda: Ha?
Prabhupāda: No, no, God's relationship should be universal, not that... It may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "O Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son. So there is...
Priest: No.
Prabhupāda: You say no, but any man will understand that. You may have your own opinion, that is a different thing.
Priest: But we have to have the opinion which we experience.
Prabhupāda: What is that experience? You ask, "Father, give us our daily bread," and that is experience. God is giving everyone maintenance. That is our actual relationship. In the Vedas also it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the God. God is also a person as you are person, I am person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityānām, the chief, the Supreme. In the dictionary it is said Supreme Being. We are all beings, and He is Supreme Being. How He is supreme? Eka, that one; God is one. Bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He supplies the necessities of everyone's life. That is very good experience, we are getting everything from God. And the Christians also pray, "Give us our daily bread." So I don't find any difference between the statement in the Vedas and the Bible. God is the Supreme Person, and you make relationship with Him any way—as master and servant, as friend and friend, as father and son, or as husband and wife. So somehow or other we are related with God, this way or that way. The husband also maintains the wife.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is your personal opinion. But...
Priest: Not opinion; experience.
Prabhupāda: So what is that experience? Tell me what is that experience?
Priest: That God is beyond all our experience.
Prabhupāda: Then what is your experience? You have no experience. If it is beyond your experience, then you have no experience.
Priest: Personally, of course, but...
Prabhupāda: Then you cannot explain. You cannot, because you have no experience.
Priest: But if you know what you can't explain...
Prabhupāda: No, no, if you can't explain means you do not know.
Priest: You don't think an illusion (indistinct) relationship.
Prabhupāda: Herbert?
Bhagavān: Yes, that's right.
Prabhupāda: Mr. Herbert?
Bhagavān: Yes. He's asking your opinion of him.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is a scholar, but he is impersonalist.
Jyotirmayī: (French)
Prabhupāda: So I met him. He is a good gentleman, scholar, but he is a Māyāvādī, he is impersonalist.
Jyotirmayī: (French)
Prabhupāda: But if he... He has already written one book. He has presented me, that Kṛṣṇa...
Devotee: The Yoga of Love.
Prabhupāda: The Yoga of Love. So he has many times repeated the word "Kṛṣṇa." That will benefit him.
Jyotirmayī: (French)
Mr. Sheni: (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that he recognizes that, and he says it is one interpretation, as you have your interpretation, as there are many. He doesn't think that these interpretations are as important as the art of knowing how to live, which is, he thinks, the essence of all religion, how to live. He says the interpretation is not so...
Prabhupāda: But he thinks Ramakrishna lived very well than others? (French)
Yogeśvara: I think one... If I've understood, he's insisting on one point. That is the that the public opinion is actually the most important thing, just as this Ramakrishna expressed the spirit of the Gītā in a way that was most popular, was most favorable to the public.
Prabhupāda: Who is that public? Amongst you, who accepts Ramakrishna.
Pṛthu Putra: He says as same as Gandhi. A different type, but at their time, at their own time...
Karandhara: Yeah, but Prabhupāda's questioning the presumption of this generalization. He said that a majority of the public have accepted Ramakrishna's comments on the Bhagavad-gītā, but what public? Where's the specifics of that generalization?
Bhagavān: He said and then Gandhi gave another interpretation that was...
Karandhara: Amongst the scholars and the true Vedic authorities in India, they don't accept Ramakrishna at all. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: It is difficult word to translate in English. He says at his time, Ramakrishna's was the expression of the mass of the people.
Yogeśvara: He says that "Well, that's a belief." You have to believe that. He said that's only a belief.
Prabhupāda: No, people change according to the time, circumstances, they change. Their opinion has no value. We don't give any value to the people's opinion. We give value to the Supreme Being's opinion. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that that's dangerous because then we run the risk of having people who say, "Well, I represent the word of God. I can give you the true interpretation of the word of God, and they're actually only interested personal, private interests..."
Prabhupāda: No, if... If people... Not all. If there is actually opinion of God, if one man says the same opinion, then how others can say that "You all not giving God's opinion." God said, Kṛṣṇa said, that "You surrender to Me," and if I say that "You surrender to God," then how I am deviating from God's instruction? (French)
Yogeśvara: In other words, what you're saying is that, in essence we must stick to the words of God without interpreting." (aside:) Is that what he said?
Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it. That we want.
Bhagavān: (to translators:) You should repeat your point that you make sure he understands. (French)
Prabhupāda: If you interpret, then the God's authority is denied. (French)
Prabhupāda: Yes, mām ekam, "only to Me." (French) So anyone who has studied Bhagavad-gītā rightly, he'll do that, surrender to Kṛṣṇa. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says he accepts that as being... He says that's an opinion, just like there are many other opinions.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Yogeśvara: He says that is an opinion, just as there are so many other opinions.
Prabhupāda: But this opinion is followed by all the ācāryas.
Bhagavān: This is Kṛṣṇa's opinion. (French)
Prabhupāda: India's culture, India's culture depends on the ācāryas. Just like Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Nimbārka, Viṣṇu Svāmī, like that. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, ācāryopāsanam. So India's culture is still, up to date, it is followed by the ācāryas. Anyone you find in India who claims to become a Hindu, he must have followed the ācārya. So all the ācāryas accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says all the Christians and all the priests, that they tell to him from, that from two thousand years, the truth is in the Evangel. But still, he says...
Yogeśvara: Just like we're saying that all the ācāryas have accepted Kṛṣṇa, he says so also in the Christian religion, all the priests and all the Christians have said that Christ is the ultimate, as it is said in the Evangel. (French)
Prabhupāda: Yes, we have several times explained that Christ says that he is the son of God. So we don't deny it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we have several times explained that Christ says that he is the son of God. So we don't deny it.
Karandhara: The point he's making, Prabhupāda, is that...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: What he's saying is that outwardly, they all profess allegiance to Jesus, but they, it's seen that they disagree with one another on many points. They have diversified opinions about what Jesus meant about this and what does life signify.
Yogeśvara: And therefore, for him, he doesn't even consider that question, whether Christ is the son of God, whether he's not the son of God. For him, it's a secondary problem.
Prabhupāda: Now, now, what is his problem. That he did never disclose.
Yogeśvara: Well, he says the problem is the art of living, what is the best way to live.
Prabhupāda: So he has got his opinion. I have got my own opinion. How we'll agree? We say that you remain in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everything will be solved. Does he agree? (French)
Yogeśvara: He says, "No, absolutely not. Just like I don't accept the existence..."
Prabhupāda: Then why shall I agree to his point? (French) So...
Prabhupāda: Then why shall I agree to his point? (French) So...
Yogeśvara: So he says, "So I have to leave now. But the last thing I'd like to say is that I reject that conclusion just like I reject also the Christian conclusion that the truth is in the Evangel. But," he says, "that doesn't impede me, that doesn't stop me from working very nicely with some of my best friends who are Christians when it comes down to practical work."
Prabhupāda: No, what is his opinion? That he never disclosed. (French)
Bhagavān: But what practical thing is he doing?
Pṛthu Putra: What he says, what he says... He's not Christian. He's actually, he's atheist and he's materialist. But he says he guides the people to read the Bhagavad-gītā because he says in Bhagavad-gītā there's something more than in the Evangel.
Prabhupāda: So we say also same thing. So where is the disagreement? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He says that in his political work, he teaches sometimes Bhagavad-gītā, and people are very interested.
Yogeśvara: He says he is the only Communist to suggest to people that they read the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: No, we recommend everyone to read Bhagavad-gītā. (French) What is that?
Jyotirmayī: He says that when he explains Bhagavad-gītā, or presents Bhagavad-gītā, to people, he doesn't tell them that "This is the word of God and you just have to accept it."
Prabhupāda: What does he mean by logic?
Yogeśvara: He says that means that it's not something that's very evident to me.
Prabhupāda: It may not be evident to him, but why not others? (French)
Yogeśvara: He says one thing is that he feels kind of glad that it's more or less a question of opinion because if it was Absolute Truth, then it would be too restricting for everyone.
Prabhupāda: No, it is Absolute Truth. But there are different ways of understanding Absolute Truth. He is taking only one way, direct perception. (French)
Yogeśvara: He said, if it were an absolute truth, it would be evident to everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But everyone is not advanced in knowledge. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says the question remains because there are other, very spiritually advanced men who don't accept that idea.
Prabhupāda: No, somebody may be known as spiritually advanced according to the society, but he may not be. So another thing is that what is the way of understanding the Absolute Truth. Let him explain. What is the standard way of understanding Absolute Truth? (French)
Yogeśvara: He says he doesn't have an answer in that kind of a context.
Church Representative: No context, problematic.
Karandhara: And according to the Vedic system, in different times and different places, according to the mentality and the culture of the people, the Absolute has made Himself known on different levels, higher and lower levels. But that... The Absolute as revealed through the Vedas, specifically the Bhagavad-gītā, is the most advanced level. It is the standard by which all other levels are judged. It is the most advanced, complete knowledge.
Church Representative: Yes, I know this. I know. I know this.
Karandhara: But it's not just an opinion. It's not just a secular idea. By scientific principle, if we consider the logic of all the propositions of Bhagavad-gītā in relation to the Bible and Koran, if we're actually impartial and open, then we'll understand that truth. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of superior logic, extending the same basic truths to their highest perfection. So in discussing the merits of Bhagavad-gītā versus another scripture, it's not that we're trying to argue just for the sake of polemics but to establish the real standard, what is the most elevated or advanced standard of the knowledge.
Bhagavān: But people are suffering due to lack of that accurate knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: And our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to make that knowledge available in practical activity to stop this suffering. It is not just a philosophy without practice. That is the reason why it is important for discussing, not just for the sake of discussing but for the sake of bringing out the highest principles for action.
Prabhupāda: So this is the position. As soon as you point out, "This man is dishonest," and you scrutinize, everyone is dishonest, then where is dishonesty? It is all honesty. Because if the whole business is dishonesty, so there is no question of honesty? Let it go on. That is the public opinion. Why one should be unnecessarily honest? If the whole world is dishonest, and the dishonest world is going on, then where is the harm? What is the use of becoming... The same thing: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss."
Jyotirmayī: That is exactly what people are saying now. They say "What's the use of being organized and good and sane? Everybody is dishonest now."
Bhagavān: We have to give them a place to go where they can come if they want.
Prabhupāda: Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja gave Kali four places. He could not find out. First of all he gave him four places, that "These four places you can go." But he could not find out such place. So he was embarrassed. So now there is no question of finding out. Everywhere you go, the same four principles. Formerly, it was very difficult to find out a place where these things are going on. Now everywhere you go, these four things are main principles of life. So therefore they cannot very much appreciate these prohibitory principles, that "What is wrong there?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, any reasonable man will find subject matter interesting. There is a statement of Caitanya-caritāmṛta, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra: (CC Adi 8.15) "Just consider and then give your judgement after studying the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu." It is never recommended to take it blindly. Karaha vicāra: "Just judge with reason and argument." And vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra: "If you consider it with logic and judgement, then you'll find it is sublime." (French)
Bhagavān: So an interpretation of a scripture, whether it be Bible or Bhagavad-gītā, cannot simply be an opinion, but it must be based on logic and reason.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bible it is said, "There was only word in the beginning." So in the beginning, there was word. That means that word is not the word of this material creation.
Yogeśvara: Just like these Guru Maharajis. They say you cannot chant the name Kṛṣṇa because it's simply a material sound. They say the name is material.
Prabhupāda: That's it. The rascal does not understand what is this sound. He does not see that there was word before creation.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Also in Revelation in the Bible it states that in the spiritual world there is no need for sun and moon...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: ...because the body of God is giving off light.
Prabhupāda: No, the residents also, they are bright.
Prabhupāda: I do not know. What is that?
Yogeśvara: He asked, "Do you have an opinion on the Hebrew scripture, the Kabbalaḥ?"
Prabhupāda: No, I have neither read it, I do not know it. I do not know.
Yogeśvara: Oh, Madame Devi doesn't have much time. Perhaps she had some...
Madame Devi: (French)
Pṛthu Putra: She'd like to know about the problem of death, what's happening at the time of death.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So as you prepare yourself... Because... Just like in dream we think what we have actually performed, similarly, the mental condition at the time of death will be prepared as we are doing in our usual life. Do you understand English? (French)
American Man: I'm American.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice.
Madame Devi: (French)
Pṛthu Putra: She believes that the thoughts are more important than the acts.
Prabhupāda: What is your opinion about this?
Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? How do you teach your disciples to become aware of this force which is no matter that makes matter alive?
Prabhupāda: That active principle, life, or living soul.
Professor Durckheim: Yes, how do you teach them to become aware of it? You see, now I listen, and that is, if you like, first a philosophy which contains the truth. I don't doubt it. But how to make feel?
Prabhupāda: It is very simple thing. Just like a body is moving, and body is not moving. So there is an active principle which makes the body moving, and when it is absent, it is not moving. Now, the question will be: "What is that active principle?" Athāto brahma jijñāsā. First of all let him distinguish what is the difference between this dead body and living body. If a student is unaware of it, he can see that on account of the active principle, the body is changing, the body is moving, and in the absence of the active principle, neither the body changes, neither moves. Just like in our childhood we used to think that the gramophone box, there is a man, and he is speaking from the box. This is a childish suggestion only, but similarly, anyone can think that within this body there is something which is making the body moving. It is not very big philosophy.
Dr. P. J. Saher: We have a similar thing in the Christian (German).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Christian method, the offering prayer. That is bhakti, that is bhakti. (German) (break) Kali-yuga means fight. Nobody is interested to understand the truth but they'll simply fight, "In my opinion, this." I say, "My opinion, this." You say, "His opinion." So many foolish opinions and fight within themselves. This is the age. No standard opinion. Everyone has got his own opinion. Therefore there must be fighting. Everyone says, "I think like this." So what is your value, your thinking like that? That is Kali-yuga. Because you have no standard knowledge. If a child says the father, "In my opinion, you should do like this." Is that opinion to be taken? If he does not know the thing, how he can give his opinion? But here, in this age, everyone is prepared with his own opinion. Therefore it is fight, quarrel. Just like the United Nation, all the big men go there to become united, but they're increasing flags. That's all. Fighting, it is a society of fighting only. The Pakistan, the Hindustan, the American, the Vietnam. It was meant for unity but it is rendered into fighting association. That's all. Everything. Because everyone is imperfect, anyone should give his perfect knowledge.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Do you mean the Kali-yuga exists all the time?
Prabhupāda: No. This is the period when foolish men have developed so many. Instead of making solution the fighting increasing. Because they have no standard knowledge. Therefore this Brahma-sūtra says that you should be eager to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now the answer, next quote, is that Brahman, or the Absolute Truth is that from which, or from Whom, everything has come. Athāto brahma jijñāsā, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Now you find out where is the... Everyone is trying to find out what is the ultimate cause. That should be the aim. That if you follow these philosophical quotes then your fighting will stop. You'll be sober. This verse also athāto jijñāsā. Athāto jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Sit down, because there should be a class of men, very intelligent class of men in the society who are discussing about the Absolute Truth and they will inform others, "This is Absolute Truth, my dear friends, my dear..." Should do it like this. That is one thing. But here everyone is absolute truth. That is fighting. (German) (break)
Vedavyāsa: ...was the always the desire of mankind to find (indistinct) he says the kings should be wise and the wise men should be kings.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. P. J. Saher: Yes, that's the same what the Christian criterion when St. Paul speaks. They had the same...
Prabhupāda: No. We say that you follow Christian principle, you become perfect. But the difficulty is nobody follows anything. He follows his own opinion. That's all. "In my opinion." What you are, your opinion? That is the difficulty. Yes you can take.
Vedavyāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bible there are a lot of statements regarding chanting, instructions that people should chant the holy name of God. Like in the Old Testament it says from the morning to evening you should chant the holy name of God.
Prabhupāda;: Yes. That is the business in this age. Chant the holy name of God.
Professor Durckheim: Whatever you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ, the Bible...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You take this in the name of Jesus Christ.
Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, would you like to take your prasādam now?
Prabhupāda: Not now. Later. The simplest method-chant the holy name of the Lord. That's all.
Prof. Pater Porsch: Should this chanting be loud? Or can it also be half loud, whisper or silently, mentally? Does it play any difference? Does it make any difference?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṭa. So when Christ said that "My father, the Lord, hallowed be Thy name," that name is Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa. How do you think of it?
Pater Emmanuel: Yes, I think that Christ, (German)
German devotee: He says that Jesus as the son of God has revealed the name of God, yes, and his opinion is that we call name of God... The name of God is Christ.
Prabhupāda: The name of God is Christ. That Christ is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṭa. And Kṛṣṭa is another form of pronouncing Kṛṣṇa. Therefore God's name is Kṛṣṇa. So Christ said to glorify the name of God, but somebody says in Christian that there is no name of God. Why?
Pater Emmanuel: We have name of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that?
Pater Emmanuel: We talk God, "Father," or "our Father."
Prabhupāda: No, "Father..." Just like your son may call you, "Father," but you have got a name also, "Mr. such and such." My son, your son, everyone's son calls his father, "father." But the father has a name also. Similarly, God is the general name, but still, He has got a particular name. And that name is Kṛṣṇa. And that is accepted by Jesus. Jesus the Christ or Jesus the son of Christ or Kṛṣṇa. And he identified himself as the son of God. Therefore the name of God is... Either you call Kṛṣṭa or Kṛṣṇa or Christo, it doesn't matter. The name of God is Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṭa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only purpose. Except this purpose, fulfilling, anything we are doing, that is animalism. As the dog is jumping we are also jumping like that. It is dog's dancing, that's all. What is the difference? A dog is thinking, "I am very strong dog. I am this." And another man—"I am Englishman. I am..." So what is the difference? Mentality is the same. To think of this body that "I am this body," that is required to the dog, to the man. When one understands that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," that is humanity.
Guest (3): So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, have you realized God?
Prabhupāda: What do you think? What is your opinion?
Guest (3): I can't say.
Prabhupāda: Then if I say, "yes," then what you will understand? If you are not yourself expert, then even if I say, "Yes, I am God realized," how you will take it as truth? If you do not know what is God realization, then how you can ask this question and how you will be satisfied by the answer? You do not know.
Guest (3): Well, what is God realization?
Prabhupāda: Then... Then you were asking, "Are you God realized?" If I say, "Yes," then how you'll believe it? You do not know what is God realization. Then why do you put this question? You do not know yourself. If I say,"Yes," how you'll understand that I am right? Therefore you should not put all these questions. It has no value. You do not know yourself what is God realization. Now, just like a medical man, if he asks another man, medical man, so if he says, "Yes," then medical man will understand him by technical terms whether he is medical man. So unless one is medical man, what is the use of asking another man, "Are you medical man?" Unless you are prepared to take the answer whatever I give. Are you prepared?
| Page Title: | Opinion (Conversations 1973 - 1974) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 19 of Nov, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=84, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 84 |