Mercantile class - vaisya (Conversations)

Room Conversation -- August 15, 1971, London:

Kṛṣṇa says, 'Even those who are low-born, pāpa-yoni—the striya, vaiśya and śūdra, they are also included—but by accepting Me, accepting my shelter, they are also elevated to the transcendental position.' Now, why the higher class of Hindu society, they neglected this injunction of Bhagavad-gītā? Suppose one is pāpa-yoni. Kṛṣṇa says that 'They can be elevated to the transcendental position if they accept Me.' Why this propaganda was not done by the higher class people so that the so-called pāpa-yoni could be elevated? Why you rejected them? The result was that the Mohammedans... Instead of accepting them, you rejected them, and they have partitioned, and they have gone away, and they have become eternal enemy of India."

Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and śūdra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no brāhmaṇa. Therefore the whole social structure is lost. So we are trying to create some brāhmaṇas. And people if follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle. When you have come and sacrificed your life for the mission, don't be fickle. Be very steady and capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet tightly. You'll never be attacked by māyā. Otherwise as soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa, māyā is ready. Just like side by side there is sun... shadow and light. If you push little from light then go to shadow. This is already side by side māyā and Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as you forget Kṛṣṇa-māyā. As soon as you give up māyā, then Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So Pradyumna is transcribing everyday?

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Reporter: The condition is to follow the...

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four varṇas—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—it is created by Me." But you are trying to kill it. Why? If you try to kill Kṛṣṇa's program, then how you will be happy?

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Huh? There is no question of preference. Kṛṣṇa's creation, it is there. You are creating (indistinct) caste, jana-saṅgaś caste. Caste is already given, in a different name. How you can make casteless? That is not possible. The whole world—"I am American," "I am Indian"—this is caste, bigger caste. Yasyātma-buddhi-kuṇa. So long you will be under the concept of this body, there must be caste division. So we have to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there will be no caste. Just like these boys, Americans, Europeans, Africans, Canadians, they have no caste, they have no nationality. They are simply for Kṛṣṇa. That is casteless.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇa's dharma, the kṣatriya's dharma, the vaiśya's dharma, and the śūdra's dharma.

Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swamiji, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore, a man must be..., he must have the knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas.

Prabhupāda: Integration of guṇas, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). That is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three guṇas. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā. The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of guṇas—sattva, raja, tama guṇa. And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya, nirguṇa.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Caturthaḥ(?) platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ ca (yo) 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītya etān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

So two sides we are trying, to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class, and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible. Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is in the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance, and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaisya, śūdra. Those who are purely in goodness, they are brāhmaṇa. Next to that, passion, kṣatriya. And next to that, vaiśya, mixture. And next to that, śūdra. And next to that, caṇḍāla.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be brāhmaṇa or either you may be kṣatriya, either you may be vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ is accepted, varna āśrama. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got particular duty to perform. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You remain kṣatriya, you remain brāhmaṇa, you remain śūdra, it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted. Just like Arjuna. He remained a kṣatriya. He was a fighter, he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said, "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was..., he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, śiṣyas te 'ham (BG 2.7), "Now I am puzzled, I do not..., I am..." Yes. Kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that "Here is an enemy," so hand immediately strikes. Brain gives direction that "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya. And the belly supplies food, vaiśya. And the legs, śūdra, carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain. Therefore, first of all duty is there must be an intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class. So intelligent class means one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Is it not? So jñānavān means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate, he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, you cannot work properly. (Sanskrit) Because we neglected Kṛṣṇa, therefore brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, they have fallen down. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, everyone.

Room Conversation -- December 10, 1971, New Delhi:

So that was Vedic civilization. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, everyone is expert, but every is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no bodily barrier. No. "Because I have got a particular type of body, therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is forbidden for me." No, that is not. In any body, any circumstances, you can cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But not material. But people, they do not know. They think that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is no need, but let me improve my bodily comfort." This is called illusion. He cannot improve, even by an inch, the burden, but still... But you can improve, or you can purify, your consciousness. That is open to you, oh, irrespective of bodily (indistinct). And that is actually happening. You have got a different body from the before. (indistinct) But everyone, your taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa says, "It doesn't matter what kind of body you have got-low born, or high born, or this born or that born. I have no such restriction. If you want Me, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7), you are all My parts and parcels. Every one of you are equally important to Me." And similarly, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa also sees. He does not see the outward cover. He sees that "Every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you'll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacārī, no sex life. Brahmacārī. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause—a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. (break) The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles.

Room Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo:

Dai Nippon representative: Hunting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because king—the kṣatriya means royal order-they, sometimes they had to kill somebody. If somebody is criminal, "Cut off his head." So in order to become powerful in cutting head, so they had to practice hunting. Yes. This hunting was allowed to the kṣatriyas. There are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. Four divisions means intelligent class, administrative class, mercantile class, and laborer class. So these kṣatriyas, they are royal order, giving protection to the citizens. And the brāhmaṇas giving good advice to the royal order. And the mercantile class, they work under the regulation of the royal order. And the worker class, they give simply service.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: There are so many married families. So many married families. He is married family, he is married family, he is married family. They have got children, wife, everything. There is no problem. The children are getting nice education, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, dancing, eating nicely. Just now we are purchasing one house in front of our temple, seventy thousand dollars for providing gṛhasthas. Husband, wife, children will live there. So we have no problem. The gṛhasthas are there, the brahmacārīs are there, sannyāsīs are there—everyone is there. We maintain the Vedic culture, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, or brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. The eight orders of social structure we maintain. But they're all engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is the distinction. Everyone is twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: You should fight... No, brāhmaṇas will not fight. the kṣatriyas will fight. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they are part and parcel of the same unit. Just like hand. Hand is the part of your body. When there is attack, you first of all spread your hand. So this is kṣatriya's business. When somebody is coming to attack you, you don't put your legs, you put your hands. And the hand is raised by the order of the brain. And the hand and the brain is maintained by the belly. Why don't you study your own body? As in your own body there is brahminical department, there is kṣatriya department, vaiśya department and śūdra department... (laughter) But nobody is less important.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: They can be counted, yes. Because a brāhmaṇa is advised not to accept service at any circumstances. That is the injunction of the śāstra. He can take the profession of a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, but not the śūdra. That is brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): So whoever cannot stand on his own legs as an independent businessman or landlord or whatever it be, he's a śūdra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. I have not manufactured these things. These are śāstra, that "He's brāhmaṇa,"—the qualification. "He's kṣatriya,"—qualification. "He's vaiśya,"—qualification. "He's śūdra—by qualification." And Nārada Muni says, but we have to judge by the qualification. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet: (SB 7.11.35) "These are the qualities of different caste. If it is found in other place, you should designate him according to the quality." Just like a man born of a brāhmaṇa family, but if he has got the śūdra qualities, then he should be śūdra. And a man born of a śūdra family, if he has got the qualities of brāhmaṇa, then he must be designated as brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): What about intermarriage between all the castes?

Room Conversation -- August 1, 1972, London:

Devotee: Oh. There's some famous islands between England and Holland called the Jersey Islands. There's special milk that comes from Jersey. Jersey milk is best.

Prabhupāda: No. These Europeans, Americans, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll be more happy. That is assured. From all angles of vision-their family life, their political life, their social life, their cultural life, their religious life, their philosophical life, their scientific life—everything will be perfect. Now you have to teach them. I can give you the ideas how they'll be happy. The rascals, they do not know why, what is your specialness, and just to teach you this. My only ambition is that you are... (aside:) Oh, there is no water. You are supposed to be the most intelligent persons. (Prabhupāda drinks) So if you take, others will take. That is going on. So I have no distinction between East and West. They're thinking that East is conquering West by culture. That is their enviousness. (laughter) That is, they are afraid. Because the Britishers, they kept Indian culture suppressed so long because... (break) ...the kṣatriya, kings, in special cases. Not for public. Among the kṣatriyas. And among the vaiśyas, one day in a year, when they were allocated(?), to try one's luck. One day they'll bet. Not amongst the brāhmaṇas or the śūdras. Śūdras have no money to gamble, and brāhmaṇas prohibited. The kṣatriyas, they were also allowed in special cases, and the vaiśyas were allowed to engage in gambling one day in a year. That means restricted.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Scholar: But by using threads, attributes of Hindu religion...

Prabhupāda: No, actually... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Mohammedans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas, four āśrama. The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being. He's animal, because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama. The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four divisions—the head division, the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division—all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not... that we don't require leg. Leg is also required. Similarly, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they're required to function the society perfectly. That is varṇa. And similarly, for spiritual emancipation there must be the division: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So unless you accept this institution perfectly you cannot develop your consciousness as perfect human being.

Room Conversation with David Wynne, Sculptor -- July 9, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That king should be a representative of God. That is ideal king. But if he thinks that "This kingdom is my property, and let me enjoy for my sense enjoyment," then it is all gone. If he thinks himself as representative of God... Just like we think. Therefore we are after our disciples: "Do this, do that, do that, do that." We want to see that my disciples also become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Similarly, it is the king's duty to see that every citizen becomes God conscious. Then he is representative of God. That is the first duty. The division must be there, and the, it is the duty of the king to see that everyone is discharging according to his responsibility. That is king's duty. A brāhmaṇa is acting exactly like brāhmaṇa. The kṣatriya is acting exactly like kṣatriya. A vaiśya is... Like that. It is the duty of a king to see that nobody's unemployed, everyone is engaged in his own occupational duty. That is the... And they must feel security of life, property, anxiety. That is perfect king. Here, at the present moment, nobody is confident whether he'll live after an hour or... You see. Anyone can take your property and life, at any moment. There is no protection. There is no protection. And so far anxiety, there is no length and breadth. People are always full of anxieties. Unemployment. These things should not be there. No unemployment, no anxiety, no feelings of insecurity. And that is good government. Nowadays there are police force. But what is the use of this police force? You go on the street, somebody stabs you, what police can do? If somebody takes away your money from your personal pocket, what the police can do? They'll take some note.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: It is dangerous. He's already... A brāhmaṇa is doing śūdra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brāhmaṇa- like, you do like, act like brāhmaṇa. Janma-karma, uh, guṇa-karma. So you have got good qualification of the brāhmaṇas. Now act like brāhmaṇa. Then your life is succ... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You act as a brāhmaṇa and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varṇāśramācaravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you strictly act as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, it doesn't matter. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). If, by your action, as it is described in the śāstra, the Supreme Lord is satisfied, then your life is successful. But they are not doing even sva-dharma, bodily. Therefore the ultimate solution is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even sva-dharma. "Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Sarva-dharmān means sva-dharma, including, that "You have to give up your sva-dharma. Don't... You cannot act as a brāhmaṇa, you cannot act as a kṣatriya, neither you are brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya. All right, whatever dharma you have got, give it up. Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām... This is the protection.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sva-karmaṇā, by his own business... Just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was kṣatriya. So sva-karmaṇā, by his fighting business, he served Kṛṣṇa. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. The Sūta Gosvāmī said—all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya—so he said, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ (SB 1.2.13). You are all very first-class brāhmaṇas. So this is the verdict. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. According to the division of varṇa and āśrama. Four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān... (CC Madhya 8.58). When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varṇa and āśrama, at that time he is recognized as human being. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate... But that is the beginning of Viṣṇu worship. So Sūta Gosvāmī said, varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. You may be a brāhmaṇa. You may be a kṣatriya. You may be a vaiśya. You may be a śūdra. You may be a brahmacārī. You may be a gṛhastha. You may be a vānaprastha or sannyāsa. It doesn't matter. These divisions will go on. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ must be there, division. Vibhāgaśaḥ svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Simply you have to see whether by executing your particular type of business you are pleasing the Supreme Lord. That's all. If by your activities, by your business, the Supreme Lord is pleased, then it is successful, good. Just like Arjuna. The same example. He was a kṣatriya. He knew how to fight. But by his fighting, he pleased Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's successful. Similarly, brāhmaṇa or vaiśya, let them do his business. It doesn't matter. But see whether you are pleasing Kṛṣṇa. Then you are successful.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: And that was written for strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām (SB 1.4.25). Mahābhārata was written by... This is history, but it was written by Vyāsadeva for woman, strī, śūdra and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means those who are born in high family, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, but they are not cultured as their forefathers. They are called dvija-bandhu. And they are compared with śūdras. So strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām. For these women, śūdra and dvija-bandhu, Mahābhārata is Vedic literature. But for their understanding... They could not understand the Vedic language directly. Therefore Mahābhārata was written. And in Mahābhārata he gave the topics, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literatures.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura, they belong to kṣatriya class. Brāhmaṇa... According to Vedic conception, there are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra. So next to brāhmaṇa is the kṣatriya. So this Ṭhākura title is given to the kṣatriyas, administrator class. Yes. (pause, Prabhupāda chants japa softly) So in your library you are keeping our books? No. All books?

Guest (2) (young British man): Well, not all of them. We don't have room to keep all.

Prabhupāda: Hm. (pause) So you have known something about our movement?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have also known?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: No?

Guest (1): No, I came as a Christian, not knowing anything. I still don't know really anything.

Prabhupāda: Our movement is to revive God consciousness. Just like a man is sleeping, and he has got some engagement, say, in the morning, at six o'clock. But still he's sleeping. So somebody is trying to awake him. "Get up, get up! You have got this engagement. You have..." Our movement is like that. The human society is sleeping. So we are just trying to awake them: "Get up. Get up. You have got this engagement." That is our business.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So intelligence means one must have knowledge. That is intelligence. So this division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—means the highest intelligent class man is called brāhmaṇa. He knows. He's in knowledge. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Next intelligent, less, is the kṣatriyas. Next, the vaiśyas. And the śūdras, they are like, almost like animals. They have no independence. Just like animal has no independence. A dog, without a master, he cannot live. His life is very precarious. So at the present moment, however one qualified may be, unless he gets a good job, he's just like a dog, a street dog. He may be very highly qualified, technologically, but if he does not get a job, then he's useless. He'll go. "Sir, can you give me any job?" "No vacancies." A dog like. Just like dog goes, moves the tail, "Can you give me some food." Somebody gives him, "Eh! Hut!" This is the position. Therefore in this age kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In Kali-yuga, there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya. There are some vaiśyas. And all śūdras. Because they cannot live without being engaged by somebody else. And the whole civilization is going on, big, big factories, big, big... What is that? Śūdras. They are creating śūdras. "People should be dependent." Unless you work... Therefore people are going fifty miles away, going... I have seen in New York.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests and Devotees -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi for some time, a few English words) (break) (Hindi for some time) (break) When the destiny of the people are to be controlled, there must be very, very intelligent man. That is Vedic civilization. There is standard aims and objects on which the people should be trained up. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. Viṣṇur ārādhanam. Worshiping Viṣṇu. This is the ultimate aim. So the whole society is divided into brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa—departmental—and they are trained up. But the aim is viṣṇur ārādhanam. But they have no idea at the present moment. Viṣṇur ārādhanam, he has no knowledge. But the civilization begins on this point. Human being means he's meant for viṣṇur ārādhanam. Otherwise what is the difference between dogs and human beings? The western people, they do not know. They simply think that dog lies down on the floor, on the road... "We have got nice, best apartment. Therefore we are civilized." So that is their defect. They are trying to improve the condition of sleeping, eating. That's all. That is advancement of civilization. But that is not advancement of civilization. Advancement of civilization means to understand Viṣṇu, how to please Him, how to go back to Him, go to the spiritual world.

Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad-gītā recommends that the whole society should be divided into four divisions: the brāhmaṇa, or the most intellectual persons, the kṣatriyas, the administrators, the vaiśyas, the mercantile agriculturists, and the śūdras, ordinary men, laborer or worker. Because this material world is conducted by three modes of nature, goodness, passion and ignorance, so according to the quality of the person, he should be listed in different categories. And it is the duty of the state to see that all these categories, divisions, they are working nicely.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This catur-varṇa. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa, whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa. Nowadays that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as śūdra, but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa.

Reporter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Isn't it?

Reporter: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king, it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "Doctor, Medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa, he must act as brāhmaṇa. If one is claiming to be kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Now, what are the qualifications of brāhmaṇa, what are the qualifications of kṣatriya, they are there already in Bhagavad-gītā.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So this is government's duty, that you are claiming that everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmeṇa idanasya(?). Sva-dharma means the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. By quality. Guṇa-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a śūdra is employed, is engaged as a śūdra, a vaiśya is employed and engaged as... Just like vaiśya. Vaiśya, it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Now the vaiśyas, they are in the share market speculating.

Reporter: Hm. There are no more vaiśyas. (laughs) Exactly.

Prabhupāda: Industrialists. Industrialists means śūdras. So if they're śūdras, why they should claim as...

Reporter: Vaiśyas.

Prabhupāda: This is government's duty. To see, "Why you are claiming vaiśya? If your industry is to produce food grains, agriculture, give protection to the cows..." So in India ten thousand cows are being killed, and the vaiśyas are big, big (indistinct), big, big zamindars. You see.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Similarly brāhmaṇas. Nehru. He is brāhmaṇa, but what did he do as a brāhmaṇa? But he was the head of the government. Who will speak against him? Everything is topsy turvy.

Reporter: Hm. When such... When such situation arises where the king is no more representing the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the vaiśyas are no more following that duty...

Prabhupāda: This is, this is... This world is material world. And (aside:) Why don't you come here? You can take another pad. (desires woman guest to sit comfortably)

Devotee: Would you like a chair?

Woman guest: No, it's okay.

Reporter: My question was that when there is no more people following their sva-dharma, their true self...

Prabhupāda: That anyone can do at any moment, any moment.

Reporter: Hm?

Prabhupāda: Any moment.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Correct? In this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as śūdra. No brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. All śūdra, or less than śūdra.

Reporter: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Pañcavān.(?) This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform that, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible, it is Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They are very slow, they don't accept the right path... Just like God is here, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders they are saying, "Eh, Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa should be accepted?" Even big, big leaders, they do not believe that Kṛṣṇa was there on this planet, there was Kurukṣetra battle. You know better than me.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizens, to become charitably disposed. Everything is described there. These are the kṣatriya's karma. These the brāhmaṇa's karma. These are the, eh, vaiśya's karma. These are the śūdra's karma. So sva-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. Dharma karma. Dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brāhmaṇa, you have to act as a brāhmaṇa.

Reporter: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: You are kṣatriya, you have to act as a kṣatriya. So acting means karma. How you can avoid karma? Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti, what is this bhakti? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma. So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock offering maṅgala-ārati, and then reading books, then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then taking the class and taking prasādam, then going to outside for performing saṅkīrtana, to distributing books. All day, twenty-four hours karma. So therefore outsiders, they can not understand, that "They're also working like us, they're also selling books, they're going to the press, they're also eating, they're riding motorcar, they're typing, what kind of bhakti it is?" They cannot understand what is bhakti.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Jñānam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is, jñānam means theoretical knowledge. And vijñānam means practical knowledge. Jñānaṁ vijñānam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra. This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajña. Yajñād bhavati (indistinct). This things are there. So everyone should act for yajña. Yajñeśa. In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa it is said, varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you act according to varṇāśrama, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, never mind, whatever you are. Everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: It is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it is clear, it is very clear. Kṛṣṇa gives direction, that this is the business of the brāhmaṇa, this is the business of kṣatriya. So politics is the business of the kṣatriya. So if you act according to Kṛṣṇa's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mālā and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a kṣatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaiśya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction. Kṛṣṇa is giving direction: "This is brāhmaṇa's karma." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brāhmaṇa. But if you act whimsically, then what is your surrender? And why did you become a brāhmaṇa? Then there is chaos. That is the present position of the society. They are not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they do not abide by the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Still, they have become leaders. Then the whole thing is chaos.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Everyone. Unless he follows the principles of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ.

Reporter: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: But there is no disappointment. Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

So even one is śūdra, we can give him deliverance by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our perfection. It doesn't matter he has become a śūdra. But Kṛṣṇa says māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ, even if you are lower than the śūdra, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. If he accepts Kṛṣṇa, then he also attains the perfection, goes back to home, back to Godhead. So there is no cause of disappointment because everyone has become śūdra. There is remedy also.

Prabhupāda: Self-supporting. We are self-supporting. Just like... I have given the example. The body, the social body... You can take of this body. There are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. So belly is doing the work of the belly, stomach. The leg is walking. The hand is doing, defending, and the head and the brain is giving instruction to everyone. This is cooperation. So that is Vedic system of civilization. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. There must be divisions of work. Not that everyone has to learn everything.

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

Schumacher: I agree with that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathe... (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, how to become a brāhmaṇa, how to become a kṣatriya, how to become a vaiśya, how to become a śūdra, or how to remain less important than the śūdras. The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly... (end)

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as simply wasting time. That's all.

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed ratiṁ yadi

śrama eva hi kevalam

(SB 1.2.8)

Śrama eva hi kevalam. Everyone is acting. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ. According to Vedic civilization, there are four divisions of men. brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and further, spiritual divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So everyone has got some duty according to his position. So Bhāgavata says that even a person executes his duty very perfectly, but if he does not awaken his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all that he has done is simply a waste of time. So our point is that the UNESCO, United Nations, UNO, they're simply wasting their time.

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Professor: Do you initiate girls?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So many girls. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim.

Professor: That's...

Prabhupāda: Find out this verse, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya. Give him, Paṇḍita Mahāśaya.

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Professor: Just like Gārgī and... Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gārgī. Etad viditvā yaḥ prayāti sa brāhmaṇaḥ.

Prabhupāda: So pāpa-yoni. And therefore, Kṛṣṇa says... What does He say?

Pradyumna:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, although they be of lower birth, women, vaiśyas, merchants, as well as śūdras, or workers, can approach the supreme destination."

Professor: Yes.

Prabhupāda: In another place, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, I think Second, Second Canto... Find out this verse: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ ye 'nye ca pāpā yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ (SB 2.4.18).

Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning. That it is the kṣatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brāhmaṇa, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's cheating. So you cannot call yourself a brāhmaṇa unless you are qualified. But that is going on. And this cheating is being accepted. Therefore this varṇāśrama-dharma. Hindu dharma or Vedic dharma means varṇāśrama-dharma. One must first of all accept the principles of varṇas and āśramas. Then there is question of understanding God. God is not so cheap thing, "What is God?" and you understand immediately. You must become first of all brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Now why you are asking this question? You know, I've explained, that one has to become brāhmaṇa. There are still there are many brāhmaṇas, those who are with children. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, although He had no children, He was family man. Nityānanda Prabhu was family man, and Advaita Prabhu was family man. They're all brāhmaṇas, family men, but they knew what is God. The real thing is to know God. Not to, because everything is allowed. These eight, four varṇas and four āśramas. There is no such thing that one has to become, to come to this form of life or that form of life. So varṇāśramācaravatā. You must execute the varṇāśrama-dharma. Then you'll understand. It doesn't matter whether you are a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra, that is a cooperation. Just like in your body there must be the head, there must be the arms, there must be the belly, and there must be the legs. By comparative study head is more important than the leg. But leg is also required. You cannot do without leg. Similarly, brāhmaṇa is the head, kṣatriya is the arms, vaiśya is the belly and śūdra is the leg. So as much I require my head so much I require the leg also. But the leg must do the leg's duty and the head must do the head's duty. Then it is perfect. And if the head is cracked, then everything is gone, madman.

This is the first time that systematically we are presenting what is actual Vedic dharma or Bhāgavata-dharma. This question was raised by Rāmānanda Rāya before Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Varṇāśrama, he quoted this verse from Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. "Yes, it is all right, varṇāśrama-dharma, but it is now external. If you know something better, you speak." So in this way the whole system was discussed. At last Caitanya Mahāprabhu approved this system of śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). Chanting and hearing about Viṣṇu. Varṇāśrama-dharma is also Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. The real purpose is understanding Viṣṇu the Supreme. So varṇāśrama-dharma is also meant for understanding Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. So... But these formulas of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is the, the age is so rotten that it is very difficult to revive this varṇāśrama-dharma culture. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. Yes, it is all right, but it is external now. It cannot be utilized at the present moment. So when Rāmānanda Rāya stated, citing one verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām. If one simply hears about Viṣṇu, never mind in whatever condition he is, then he can understand what is God.

Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: Then, again they come down to this material world and he takes birth either in a very exalted brāhmaṇa family, śucīnām, or very rich, vaiśya family. After enjoying there, again he's given chance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And if he misses, then again he goes down. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says these are all false elevation. If I have to come again back, again I have to accept another lower grade life, then what is the profit? Kṛṣṇa gives His straight understanding, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti: (BG 4.9) You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. After the giving up this body, no more material body either in the heavenly planet or in the lower hellish planet. "You come direct to Me." That is perfection. You should not be attracted by somebody has gone to heavenly planet for ten thousands of years living. We should not be attracted by these things. Therefore Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī says, kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pur ākāśa-puṣpāyate. Tridaśa-pur means the heavenly planets. Ākāśa, it is just like will of the wisp. Something, just like, what do you say Hindi? There are many proverbs, which has no existence. Just like in Bengali we say ghoḍā-ḍima. Ghoḍa-ḍima. Ḍima means egg. The horse never lays down egg. But the word is running on: "the egg of horse." So it has no existence but the word is there. Similarly, what do you say in Hindi? Something which has no existence but it is current. I think there is.

Prabhupāda: Now, happy attitude. Now the cow are going to be killed. They know it, that "We are going to be killed." They're also intelligent living entity. So how they can be happy? If some human being concentrated in a camp, and they know that "We are going to be killed," can they be happy? So if one is not happy, if the cow is not happy, can she supply sufficient milk? No. No. Therefore just they were happy. Therefore milk was supplied so much that the grazing ground became wet with milk. Muddy. With milk, not with water. So we, we have no intelligence how to live. We... Our Bhagavad-gītā says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vaiśya. Means kṛṣi-go-rakṣya, to protect cows. Nowadays not to protect cows—to kill cows. Just see, business. Vaiśya means businessman. So vaiśya's business is kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). But no go-rakṣya. Cutting the throat of go. This kind of sinful activities are going on, and they want to be happy. Instead of giving protection to the cows... In the Bible, also it is said that the animals are given under the protection of the human being.

Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Ambassador: Because there is a... The definition of brāhmaṇa, of course, is made by Buddha's said: (Sanskrit )

Prabhupāda: No, in Bhagavad-gītā it is said: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). And Bhāgavata says,

yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ

puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam

yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiśet

(SB 7.11.35)

These are clear indications that brāhmaṇa is not from particular family. And Kṛṣṇa says, another place,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Everyone, Kṛṣṇa is open for everyone. Kṛṣṇa does not say that only... He says that kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyāḥ. Everyone is accepted. Why not the brāhmaṇas? But te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Those who are not even born in brāhmaṇa family... Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, kibā vipra kiba śūdra...

Ambassador: Oh. Kibā vipra kiba śūdra...

Prabhupāda: Kibā vipra kibā nyāsī śūdra kene naya, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, tattva-vettā, sei guru haya. He becomes spiritual master. It doesn't matter what he is. Śūdra, or vipra, it doesn't matter. The Rāmānanda Rāya, he was a śūdra. According to social position, he was a śūdra. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu took lessons from him.

Banker: Welfare. Payment to people who don't work.

Prabhupāda: No, everyone should work. Our Vedic philosophy is that everyone must work. But there must be division of work. Just like in your body there are different parts. The head department, the arms department, the belly department, and the legs department. These are different parts. So all these departments must work for the total benefit of the body. That is our philosophy. Nobody should sit idle. But he must work according to his capacity. Brain must work for giving direction. Hand must work for giving protection. Belly must work for supplying food, energy. And leg must work for carrying the body. So similarly the society must be divided: the brain of the society, the arms of the society, the belly of the society and the legs of the society. That will make perfection. The brain will give direction That is the brāhmaṇas. The arms will give protection. That is the kṣatriya. And the belly will give energy, food, that is vaiśya. And the legs will carry the body. That is śūdra. This is... Whole society should be divided into four divisions, the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras. And they should work cooperatively for the total benefit of the body. This is perfect life. Not that everyone should be brain. Then who will carry me? Just like in your bank, the manager is the brain. The secretaries and assistants are the hands, clerks. And ordinary worker, they are legs. Anywhere you go, you must find out these four divisions. Therefore the human society must be divided into four divisions. But there is no such plan. Now the plan is that everyone is being educated to learn technology, how to... In your country, especially. How to make economic development. So they have no brain. Therefore there are hippies. There is no brain actually. Now, the President Nixon, he is in the topmost post. He has no brain. Therefore he is being ridiculed. Neither he has honor. He is not resigning the post. He has been ridiculed by the people, but still, he is sticking to his post. So this is the defect. You have got in your country only the vaiśyas, the belly and the legs. I am just giving a crude example.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform, there must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is not possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required. The society must be divided into four classes. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.

Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is by tendency. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). By the tendency. Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that "This boy is meant for becoming a brāhmaṇa." Everyone has got some tendency. From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Lady: But originally it wasn't like that. Suppose if you are born into brāhmaṇa, fortunately, then you become brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not. No, no, no. No, that is not śāstra. That is a... Lately, this brahminical class, they made it. Just like he is a manager in the bank. His son does not mean that he is also manager. He must be qualified to become a manager. He has got the facility. Because he is son of a bank manager, so he can get some facilities, father's training. He can quickly become a manager. Others may take time. Similarly, a person born in brāhmaṇa family, if his father is actually brāhmaṇa, then automatically he is getting the brahminical training at home. This satya, śama, dama, titikṣā, ārjavam (BG 18.42), this qualification. Because naturally the children follow the father. So if the father is a real brāhmaṇa, then he naturally becomes. But if by chance he develops the śūdra quality, then he must be accepted as śūdra, not as a brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). If the qualities, brahminical qualities are found somewhere else in śūdra or a vaiśya, then he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly if śūdra qualities are found in the son of a brāhmaṇa, he should be accepted as śūdra. It is the quality, not the birth. That is not a fact. They have made it now like that. Because without any qualification, if he can become a brāhmaṇa, why he should not take the advantage? That has fallen down the Vedic culture in India, when it came to the caste system. It is not the caste system by birth. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "By quality..." guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Read that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Brahmānanda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa means quality, karma means the work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like he is manager. He has got the qualification of manager and he is working as manager. Then he is a manager. Even if he has got the quality, if he does not work, he is not a manager. Suppose he has got the qualities, but he does not work, he sits at home, nobody will call him bank manager. He must have the qualities and he must work. Then he is. So here is guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. A brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra must have the requisite quality. And at the same time he must work as such. Then he is brāhmaṇa. This is the (indistinct). But now in India they have taken: no quality, no work, still, he is brāhmaṇa. He is pulling on ṭhelā, no brāhmaṇa quality, neither work is brāhmaṇa, but still, he is paṇḍitjī. I have seen it in Calcutta. One man was pulling on ṭhelā with great difficulty, and another man is offering respect, "Paṇḍitjī, namaskāra." And he was... (Hindi) He was pulling ṭhelā. I have seen it. I have seen it in the street. You see. He is still thinking that "I am brāhmaṇa." He is working like an ass. He has no qualification. Neither he is qualified. Still, he is thinking that he is brāhmaṇa. Is it not? Yes. That is the cause of India's falldown.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Śocati means in everything he laments. "Hai hai, I have lost so much things, I have not these things, I have not that thing." So at the present moment, all the people, they are so dissatisfied that they are all śūdras. Śūdra is always in want. So who is not, at the present moment, not in want? Everybody's in want. Therefore everybody is a śūdra now. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. And that is his qualification, always feeling in want, śocati. And his work is to serve others, master. A brāhmaṇa will not work under anybody. A kṣatriya will not work under anybody. Nowadays the industrial development has taken place because people are śūdras. They want some service. So-called technologists and laborers, and everything. Everyone is searching after good job. He cannot live independently, just like a dog. A dog cannot live independently. He must have a master. Then he is happy. Is it not? Otherwise it is street dog. So modern education is that they are creating śūdras, to become dependent on others. And therefore modern economic development is taking place because there are so many people, they are prepared to give them service. Suppose in your bank, if you withdraw from the service, the bank will stop. Industry will stop. So because there is no such division as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Everyone is śūdra. Therefore this economic development, so-called economic development, has become possible. But in spite of all this economic development, because people are śūdras, they cannot be happy. Because śocati, they will lament, strike. Even they are getting thousands of rupees, strike. Even they get five hundred thousands of rupees, still there will be strike. Because they are śūdras.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the doctors are going on strike now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are śūdras. Therefore, because it is the society of śūdras everywhere, there is confusion. No brain. Simply śocati, "want, want, want, want, want." And in brahminical culture, you will find even he is very poor brāhmaṇa, no source of income, no fixation of foodstuff even, but he is happy. He is happy. He is happy by his knowledge. He'll satisfy himself. If he does not get his food, then he will think that "This day Kṛṣṇa desired that I should not have my food. Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's pleasure. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Therefore in Vedic culture, other section, the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas, they would call the brāhmaṇas to take food. Brāhmaṇa-bhojana. Because they know, "The brāhmaṇas, they will starve; still they will not ask anybody to give him food." Therefore brāhmaṇa-bhojana. And now they have discovered daridra-nārāyaṇa-bhojana. There are so many things. Vedic culture is the perfect for human society, perfect culture. And this is not bogus humbug, go into the darkness and do something nonsense. It is everything open, in the śāstra, in the book. You have to adopt it. Then you become happy. The whole society, the whole human society becomes happy, never mind where it is. It is science, how to live just like human being, not like cats and dogs. That is Vedic culture. Everyone is happy. Still, those who are following Vedic principles, they are happy than others. These Arya-samajis, they say, the Vedic culture, but they are not happy as the strictly followers of Vedic culture.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Therefore I have already explained. There must be a class of men like me. They are called brāhmaṇa. They should help others. One who cannot rise so early, they will help him by his knowledge. He, the man who cannot rise early in the morning and cannot take the brahminical principle, śūdra, kṣatriya, vaiśya, he should be helped with the knowledge acquired by the brāhmaṇa. Just like the same example. The leg. Leg is not brain. The brain will give direction to the leg, "You go this side." Then it is perfect. The leg has no brain, but the brain is there. If he takes the advice of the brain and goes... Just like... It is called the logic of blind and lame. There is a lame man and there is a blind man. The lame man cannot walk, and the blind man cannot see. They should join. The blind man took the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man giving direction, and the blind man is going nicely. So by the cooperation of the blind and the lame, the work is done perfectly. Andha-kañjatā-nyāya. Similarly, it is not required that everyone has to become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible. So if the brāhmaṇa and the śūdra combine together, work, then both their lives will be perfect. Here you cannot expect everyone as brāhmaṇa, in this material world. That is not possible. Because in the material world three qualities are working. So one may be brāhmaṇa, another may be kṣatriya, another may be vaiśya, another may... So they should cooperate.

Conversation at Airport -- October 26, 1973, Bombay:

Pradyumna: I just have the black one.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). During Mahārāja Parīkṣit's time, one black man was attempting to kill a cow. Immediately the king wanted to kill him, immediately: "Oh, who are you?" It is the duty of the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma-svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). It is the duty of the vaiśyas to protect the cows, to increase agricultural activities and trade. But they are now interested in producing electronic parts. No go-rakṣya, no vāṇijyam, no food production. Cheap profit, and for eating, let there be slaughterhouse and eat meat. And to digest meat, you drink wine. This is being taught. So you create the situation and when you suffer, then why should we lament? We have created this situation, godless civilization, do not follow the direction of the śāstras. When we follow, what is that kāmam?

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Yaśomatīnandana: Well I realized afterwards that I was lower than a śūdra, because actually it was my duty and I rejected it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why we are accepting in Europe and America all them brāhmaṇa? They are not born in brāhmaṇa family. But why we are giving them sacred thread? Only for quality and work. That is said in the śāstra. Nārada Muni says that the quality and the symptoms is the real platform of judging who is brāhmaṇa, who is śūdra. Nārada said and Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented upon him that birth is immaterial. Quality and work is (indistinct). Otherwise how Caitanya Mahāprabhu can accept Haridāsa Ṭhākura as nāmācārya, the authority of the Holy Name? He was born in a Mohammedan family. And this Sanātana Gosvāmī, they are rejected from brāhmaṇa family because they're servants of Nawab Hussain Shah and they adopted Muslim way of life. Their name was also changed-Dabira Khāsa, Sākara Mallika, this Mallika (laughs), Sākara Mallika. But although they're born in brāhmaṇa family, but they're rejected from the brāhmaṇa family because they accepted service. Formerly the brāhmaṇas were so strict. Brāhmaṇa cannot accept any service. Then he becomes śūdra. To accept service is the business of the śūdra. And it is warned in the śāstra. If a brāhmaṇa becomes economically poor, he may act as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, not as a śūdra. Then it will be quite degradation. So now this, what is this brāhmaṇa, he's in service?

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Umāpati: Well, they have incorporated a particular philosophy into the constitution requiring separation of church and state, what they call separation of church and state in this country.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... We have already separated. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is already separated.

Umāpati: So there are certain restrictions about religious organizations entering politics.

Prabhupāda: So what does it mean? Christians, they do not take part in politics?

Umāpati: Well, they can't do it as...

Karandhara: Not the churches.

Prabhupāda: No, not the churches. Our gṛhasthas will take part. The sannyāsīs will give advice. Directly the gṛhasthas will fight. Gṛhastha, not gṛhastha. There should be an administrative class. That is... Now it is prescribed in the Bhagavad-gītā. There should be four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Now, it is spoken by God. Therefore it should be rejected? Does it mean? God is for everything. What is this nonsense? And Kṛṣṇa acted as kṣatriya. Therefore He should not be God? Is that very good argument? God is all-inclusive. And religion means God's word, carrying out God's word. That is religion. So how you can make separate?

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, but don't think like that. But there are two kinds of business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). To give protection to the devotees and killing the unbeliever. These are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. (break) Yes. Government has got two departments: law and order department, military department. Why? Two things must... (break) This is their business, śūdra business. Śūdra business. Śūdras, they have no knowledge. They commit mistake over and over. Therefore brāhmaṇa required to guide the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. Therefore they are guru. Otherwise, they will commit mistake, more or less. It is practical. Just in your country, you have all elected Mr. Nixon as president, and again you are protesting. Why you are protesting? You have already elected him. What is the reasons?

Karandhara: Well, he's a rascal.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 10, 1974, Los Angeles:

Yaśodānandana: ...you mentioned that the vaiśyas, they are considered to be the capitalists and the śūdras, they are considered to be the Communist. And you mentioned that eventually the communists will take over the capitalists. So how long do you think that will happen?

Prabhupāda: What's the use? Why shall I think like that? Let them go to hell, and let us go back to home, back to Godhead. Why shall I waste our time? We can advise them, "Do this. You will be happy." If they do not take, then we don't bother anymore. We are not social welfare worker or political worker. We are worker for Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...in this world that people are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let us try to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our only interest. Otherwise we have no interest in this material world. Let them do their own duty and suffer or enjoy. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu (BG 9.29). Samaḥ. Samatā. We are not social worker or political worker. We are Kṛṣṇa worker. So we give advice to them that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and all problems will be solved." That is our duty; and to advise him, to convince him, to give him all facilities. Still, if he does not take, then we are not going to see how long he will suffer, how he will stop. Let them do their own business.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: ...it will be constituted, that. Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they'll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll not be saved. The varṇāśrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varṇāśrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brāhmaṇa; one class, kṣatriya; one class, vaiśya; and one class, śūdra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the śūdras.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn't matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brāhmaṇas. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kṣatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaiśya. And the balance, they're all śūdras. This is the division. You... Everywhere you'll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, śūdra. That's all. So in our society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?

Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was acting as a kṣatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaiśya. But Kṛṣṇa is neither kṣatriya nor, nor brāhmaṇa. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaiśya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kṣatriya. He was marrying as a kṣatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kṣatriya, sometimes as vaiśya, but He's neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa...

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And vaiśyas should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical.

Nitāi: Not business also?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: The vaiśyas?

Prabhupāda: Business, this rascal business, no.

Nitāi: No?

Prabhupāda: Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is śūdra business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Is it difficult? This is the business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a kṣatriya, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a brāhmaṇa, or as a kṣatriya, or as a vaiśya, or as a śūdra.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Satsvarūpa: What would his business be at that varṇāśrama college?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is śūdra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, vaiśya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and ārati. And balance—he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home.

Satsvarūpa: So they don't attend varṇāśrama college.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Varṇāśrama college especially meant for the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Those who are not fit for education, they are śūdras. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education-śūdra means. That's all. They should assist the higher class.

Hṛdayānanda: Would the brāhmaṇas learn Sanskrit?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Not necessarily.

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why?

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position?

Prabhupāda: No, we don't charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the brāhmaṇas, they'll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven't got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money.

Hṛdayānanda: The vaiśya students will produce the food.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Should our children who are at gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to that varṇāśrama college, or...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They should go.

Hṛdayānanda: We'll start it right away.

Prabhupāda: Varṇāśrama college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Satsvarūpa: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaiśya or...

Prabhupāda: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopīs, even up to the point of becoming prostitute—for Kṛṣṇa. So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Kṛṣṇa we have to do that.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: Those who cannot preach.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as kṣatriya or vaiśya, or as śūdra.

Hṛdayānanda: And sometimes...

Prabhupāda: Not he's śūdra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy.

Hṛdayānanda: So we should encourage people, young people, young students to come to our college.

Prabhupāda: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come.

Hṛdayānanda: Room and board and training.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life. So-called education. Sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way, śūdra.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Viṣṇujana: One good example in New Vrindaban, they're actually doing that. They're training kṣatriyas, they're training...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. That was the very beginning...

Viṣṇujana: ...vaiśyas...

Prabhupāda: I started the New Vrindaban scheme on this formula.

Viṣṇujana: Kīrtanānanda Swami has carried it out just as you have desired.

Parivrājakācārya: So in a sense, New Vrindaban is already...

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. The starting is already there.

Viṣṇujana: They even have a court system now. They started it when I was there last time. They have so many members that sometimes someone may commit some offense or something. They even have a judicial type of system where he comes before a board of members, older members.

Prabhupāda: Yes. All fights should be decided by the board. That's nice. And it will be accepted even by the court. Here, in India, there is such system. A board of five, ten men in the village, if there is some fight between two parties, whatever the board will decide that will be accepted in the court. Pañcāyeta. It is called pañcāyeta system. (break) You join. There will be no scarcity. This will engage people. Some are, some of them will be engaged to produce food. Where is the question of scarcity? There is food, there is milk. Eat and drink and be human beings.

Morning Walk -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: (laughing) What these communists can do? We can do better than them. We can kill many communists like that. (laughter) Then it will be counteraction of communist movement. And you think like that. "Why you are sitting idly, no employment? Come on to the field! Take this plow! Take this bull. Go on working. Why you are sitting idly?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nobody should be allowed to sit down and sleep. They must find out some employment, either work as brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or as a vaiśya. Why there should be unemployment? The same example. Just like I am, this body is working. The leg is working, hand is working, brain is working, belly is working. Why there should be unemployment? You just stop this unemployment, you will see the whole world is peaceful. There is no complaint. And they'll very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hm? Nobody's working in this field. They're all drawn to the cities to work in the factory. Condemned civilization. That communist emblem, what is that?

Devotees: Hammer and sickle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good.

Morning Walk -- March 24, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: The karma of a man depends upon his position in the society...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, (etc.)

Dr. Patel: ...whether he's a kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra whether he's a sannyāsī or a gṛhastha. That karma. And that karma when he does without any expectation of any fruits, that karma is as good as bhakti according to this line, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Without... The result should be there, but tam, unto Kṛṣṇa. Give the result to Kṛṣṇa. Tam abhyarcya. Not self. You earn lakhs of rupees, but tam abhyarcya, give to Kṛṣṇa. Not take it yourself or distribute amongst your children. That is service. Tam abhyarcya. Tam abhyarcya. First of all understand this word, tam. Tam abhyarcya.

Dr. Patel: Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya, karmaṇā.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Morning Walk -- March 25, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Because he, by his own action, becomes brāhmaṇa because he does the service of the Lord.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyone who is engaged in the arcanā of the Supreme, he's neither of these: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. He is Brahman, he has realized Brahman.

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhuto 'bhijāyate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is no more śūdra or brāhmaṇa. In the material world, even if you become a brāhmaṇa, that is not a very good position. That is māyā: "I am brāhmaṇa."

Dr. Patel: But a sannyāsīs are also from the varṇāśrama.

Prabhupāda: They are also. They are also. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has denied: "I am not a sannyāsī, I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a vaiśya, none of these." He said, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). "I am the servant of the servant of Gopī-bhartuḥ." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's identification. So those who are actually in the, engaged in the service of the Lord, they are beyond, transcendental to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya... Yes.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: (break) ...that is completely verse.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I said that in the Vedas there are so many injunctions for different men, because the population, the sattva, rajo, tamo-guṇa, some of them are śūdras, some of them are kṣatriyas, some of them are vaiśyas, some of them are brāhmaṇa; therefore different ways of inducing them is there. But because something is there for inducing the śūdras in the Vedas, you cannot say, "No, this is not required." That is also required, for the śūdras, not for you.

Indian man (4): No, but then he...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedas means helping everyone. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ.

Indian man (3): It is the māyā.

Prabhupāda: By killing, yes. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Your aim should be to go above this qualities of material.

Indian man (4): That is what he wants.

Prabhupāda: But Vedas are describing... When Vedas are describing something for the benefit of the śūdras, because it is meant for the śūdras, you cannot condemn it.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: They fall down from their own position.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya, śūdra. If you are conscious that "I have to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead according to my capacity of work," then he'll not fall down. He'll not fall down. (break) ...fall down from the position, then it is dead society. It is not living society. At the present moment. Yes. If you don't find actual brāhmaṇa, don't find actual kṣatriya, don't find actual vaiśya, so all śūdras. And there is no guide. Therefore chaotic condition. (break) ...ship without rudder? What is called? Yes. They do not know what is the aim of life. Ask any leader. The leader, he says, "No, this aim of life is to drink and enjoy. That's all." This is going on. After diplomacy, politics, when they are tired, they go to the hotel or club and enjoy and drink. That's all. This is their aim of life. (break) ...countries there are even shops, they indulge all these things, topless, bottomless, like that. Because that is the only solace to this materialistic life. There is no other. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). That is their... They have no other pleasure except that sex life. They have no information that there is another pleasure. That, they, they are not educated. So they must come to the sex life only.

Morning Walk -- April 2, 1974, Bombay:

Chandobhai: He has made a promise.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kaunteya pratijānīhi. He has not promised. He says Arjuna, that "You declare this." Because sometimes for His devotee He breaks His promise. But because His devotee Arjuna will promise, it will be never frustrated. "Oh, My devotee has promised." Therefore He says, kaunteya pratijānīhi, "You do this."

Dr. Patel:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

Morning Walk -- April 2, 1974, Bombay:

kiṁ punar brāhmaṇaḥ puṇyā

bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā

anityam asukhaṁ lokam

imaṁ prāpya bhajasva mām

(BG 9.33)

Prabhupāda: This is the conclusion, bhajasva mām. Again bhajana.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Because in those days... (break)

Dr. Patel: We are forgetting Sanskrit very quickly.

Prabhupāda: No, no, those who are interested...

Dr. Patel: Now the schools, they don't teach as in our times. (break)

Prabhupāda: As soon as the kṣatriyas were negligent, immediately the brāhmaṇas should take step. That was the system. (break) ...offer advice to the kṣatriyas according to śāstra, and kṣatriyas would execute, and the vaiśyas would care for supply. And the śūdras, serving everyone. That's all. This is the system. (break) So he used to manufacture. To manufacture means śūdra. (end)

Morning Walk -- April 8, 1974, Bombay:

Indian (3): But even then they don't listen.

Prabhupāda: No. Even Gandhi refused. Gandhi was approached by the... "Mahātmāji, you can stop this cow-killing." He replied, "How can I stop? It is their religion." Just see. (break) ...kṛṣi go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). This is the duty of the vaiśyas.

Indian (3): Killing of the cow, there is no...

Prabhupāda: Eh? (break) But who supplies the cow to us?

Indian (3): They are Hindus.

Prabhupāda: They are Hindus. (break) ...travelling with a Mohammedan. At that time there was no Second Class, Inter Class or Second Class I was. So that Mohammedan gentleman, when he called for that food supply, so he was asking very... "Is there any meat, cow's flesh?" "No, no, sir. No, sir." "That's all right." (end)

Morning Walk -- April 10, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Anna-vastra, anna-vastra-dhana. Charity means to give in charity anna and vastra and cows. (break) ...give in charity some paper, one hundred rupees. (laughs) Another cheating. And he is also satisfied, "One hundred rupees." What is this one hundred? It is a paper, a piece of paper. (break) ...earned, black market, white market. Because when one does business, he has to do it, but it should be purified. I have seen the Marwaris, they do that. Although when earning money, they don't care, they do anything, but they give in charity. (break) ...purify the body by taking bath, similarly, the wealth is purified by the charity process, giving it to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī. He accumulated much wealth. He brought in a big boat, all gold coins. So... So he distributed fifty percent to the brāhmaṇa and Vaiṣṇava and twenty-five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his personal emergency. This is example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. (break) Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). So where is that vaiśya, giving protection to the cows? Although they were village men, they were very rich. That is the old Vedic civilization. Now you go to the village—all poor. The cows are skinny, people have no home, no nice cloth. This is the position. And we are still advanced, advanced. They are proud of "advanced." And here is the... Just hear the description of the village, with cows only. So how much fallen we have become, we can just imagine.

Morning Walk -- April 10, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...even the richest man, their wife has no bangles. You see? And they are jewelries. Jewelries. Cow, butter, throwing butter like anything, and silk sari and enough food grains. What is more want for material advancement? That is real material ad... You have got everything, material needs. (break) If a man can feed his wife and children, then he is successful. There is no question of charity. There is no question of charity. But here it is said they were also giving in charity. (break) ...stopped to become real brāhmaṇa and give instruction to the society, and they also stopped giving charity to the brāhmaṇas. So therefore the society is so fallen. There is no instruction from the brāhmaṇas and no charity from the kṣatriya and vaiśya. (break) ...proṣita bhārtṛkā. By the dress a woman is recognized. When she does not dress very nicely, it is to be understood that her husband is out of home. When there is the vermillion, that means she is married. When the, what is called, division? Siti. Siti is in this side, then she is prostitute. The dress, when the woman dresses with white dress, they are widow, no husband. Yes, in this way by dress...

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (break) ...social divisions. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The other varṇas, they would give simply to the brāhmaṇas charity. And the brāhmaṇas were so advanced that simply by their blessing, they will get all benefit. So there must be a class of men who can actually benefit simply by blessing and the society must maintain them. This is real society. And everyone is śūdra, engaged in technology—then what benefit you will get? Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. There must be a brahminical class, a kṣatriya class, a vaiśya class, a śūdra class. Not that all śūdras. Then what will be going on? That is the condition. Everyone is being educated as śūdra. Then what benefit you will get? That is the defect. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Therefore there must be a brahminical class.

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: He was a great charmer. Yes. Simple, simple life, village life. They were all... Vasudeva said all these things. Vasudeva is kṣatriya. From the political eyesight, he predicted that "This may happen," but he, as a vaiśya, simple agriculturist, he thought that "Oh, Vasudeva is so, foreseer." (break)

Girirāja: Simplicity is not considered a bad quality?

Prabhupāda: No, no. For him it is all right. And anyone, sva-dharma... He is a vaiśya, He should believe like that. A politician should act like that, that... para-dharmabhāvaḥ. One should not imitate. Just like a physician is operating. I should not imitate, to take the knife and operate. That is not my business.

Girirāja: "After this incident, when Yaśodā was once nursing..."

Prabhupāda: But one thing is that Vasudeva was also thinking of Kṛṣṇa and he is also thinking of Kṛṣṇa. As a simple agriculturist, he is also thinking of Kṛṣṇa. And Vasudeva also, when he was asking him, "Go and take care of your children there," that was thinking of Kṛṣṇa. If the thinking of Kṛṣṇa is there, then either kṣatriya or vaiśya or brāhmaṇa, it doesn't matter. Everyone gets the same benefit.

Morning Walk -- April 17, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That's all. My things were stolen from my apartment in the beginning, so I went to the police. They simply noted down. That's all. (break) ...you can narrate the incidents when the negro at San Francisco...

Lilavati: Yes, we were...

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Kṣatriya, this is all finished. Now only śūdras and, little vaiśyas there are.

Dr. Patel: No, here, here you have got also brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But they don't follow them. Nobody follows them.

Prabhupāda: No...

Dr. Patel: Many people.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Mr. Ford is going to be the president now. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...of safety and security. During Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's reign there was no unnecessary disease and anxiety also. That is mentioned. You have read? (break) Some hundred years ago. When I went to Kashmir, so they said that "Here the law was if a thief was caught and proved he has stolen, his hands would be cut off."

Morning Walk -- April 18, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is wanted. It doesn't matter. Nanda Mahārāja, a vaiśya. Arjuna is a kṣatriya. And there are many śūdras also. So what is that goat(?) caṇḍāla. He was a caṇḍāla. But everyone has got the right to become a devotee. That is wanted. (break) ...tanuvān manobhiḥ. Remain in your place, but giving aural reception to the Kṛṣṇa message, you become a devotee. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't ask anybody to change. We want to make him transcendental. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). (break) Brahma-stuta śruti-kārayan. Now, in the brahma-stuta, yaṁ brahma, beginning... So that is yaṁ brahma. Then simply if you recite, yaṁ brahma... You must know who is that yam. And that is being explained by Kṛṣṇa. Here is that yam, Kṛṣṇa.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: There are three guṇas, and the sattva-guṇa, brāhmaṇa, a class of ideal men, must be there in the society so that people can follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If there is no ideal men in the society, how they can be of good character? Therefore the brahminical class of men, I mean to say, in quality, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). There must be an ideal class of men, brāhmaṇa. The next class, kṣatriyas, who can give protection to the society, they should come forward whenever there is danger. They will come forward to give protection to the society. Similarly, next, the vaiśya, they must produce. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). The class of men should be interested, produce foodgrains and give protection to the cows.

Morning Walk -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: She was raped.

Satsvarūpa: Trinidad.

Prabhupāda: Yes. She was raped.

Pañcadraviḍa: How do you teach a varṇāśrama college? In varṇāśrama college if somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be kṣatriya" or "I want to be vaiśya." Is it like that?

Prabhupāda: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He will be test by the guru.

Pañcadraviḍa: Who will teach him to be a kṣatriya or who will teach him to be a vaiśya?

Prabhupāda: A kṣatriya, a brāhmaṇa. Just like if you want to learn music, you have to go to a musician.

Pañcadraviḍa: So where will we get kṣatriyas and...?

Prabhupāda: That is in the śāstra. Anyone can learn it. Just like if you want to be doctor, so you must have this qualification. Similarly, these things are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṣatriya means if there is fight, he must go forward first of all, risking his life. That is kṣatriya.

Morning Walk -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad:

Pañcadraviḍa: And vaiśyas?

Prabhupāda: Just like when Kṛṣṇa is fighting. Kṛṣṇa is fighting, killing the demons. So that is also devotion, if you help Kṛṣṇa by killing demons, not that simply by chanting, you supply... Just like Bhismadeva. He even injured Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa took it very pleasant. Instead of throwing flowers, he pierced His body with arrow. So everything for the service. If Kṛṣṇa is pleased being pierced by the arrow the devotee will do that. His only business is how to please Kṛṣṇa. Just like, the example is given by Viśvanātha Cakravartī that when a man kisses a woman and bites her, she becomes pleased. Is it not? Is not a fact that that biting is pleasing? Is it pleasing? But sometimes it is pleasing. So one has to learn where to bite and when to... (chuckles) But if a rascal thinks that "Biting is pleasing. I shall bite always," then he is a rascal. (laughter) (break) ...lying down on the Yamunā beach, on the sand with His friends. And if we think, "No, there is no need of bedding of Kṛṣṇa. He was lying down on the Yamunā beach, so He will lie down on the floor." So is... That conclusion is very nice?

Morning Walk -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He may act like a śūdra, but he is not śūdra. He may act like a brāhmaṇa; he is not brāhmaṇa. He is Vaiṣṇava. Just like gopīs. The gopīs, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brāhmaṇa class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū-vargeṇa. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Kṛṣṇa. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Kṛṣṇa? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra or vaiśya. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The only business is to see: sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... (SB 1.2.6). Aiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. That is wanted.

Morning Walk -- April 23, 1974, Hyderabad:

Akṣayānanda: No. One may come out of a thousand.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to remain in degradation, and they will protest again. Therefore to save the degradation, this cātur-varṇyam must be established. That I... The ideal class. People will follow, "Oh, here is the ideal class." So we are trying to make an ideal class of Kṛṣṇa conscious people. And if you treat yourself as degraded, then who will care for you? You should remain an ideal class. People will follow gradually.

Mahāṁsa: If a brāhmaṇa class is created, then automatically the kṣatriyas and vaiśyas and śūdras will be changed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. The ideal, if you be ideal class, gradually they will take your advice, what to do. Then immediately the whole degradation will be finished.

Satsvarūpa: Why will they take advice? Will they actually be attracted to the virtues?

Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally. Just like people come to see me. Similarly, everyone comes.

Morning Walk Excerpts -- May 1, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...Vaiṣṇava kavi has sung,

viṣaya chāriyā, se rase mājīyā,

mukhe bala hari hari

Unless you are free from the material desires, you cannot enjoy what is the celestial or spiritual bliss in chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. If one has got material desires, he cannot enjoy.

viṣaya chāriyā, se rase mājīyā,

mukhe bala hari hari

(break) ...can see here United Nation actually. Here is Britisher, here is American, here is African, here is Indian, here is Hindu, Canadian, Hindu, Muslim, Christian-all. This is United Nation. Just let them see practically what is United Nation. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—all combined in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why do they not see? The so-called unity, brotherhood, why do they not see the reality?

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Richard Webster: Is this due to machines, do you think, to the prevalence of machines?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is due to third-class, fourth-class men. There is no first-class men. The brāhmaṇas are considered to be first-class men, the kṣatriyas are considered to be second-class men, and the vaiśyas, they are third-class men, and rest, all fourth-class and fifth-class. So at the present moment there is third-class, some, and all fourth-class and fifth-class. There is no first-class and second-class men. So unless they are, at least some of them are first-class men, ideal, the human society is doomed. It cannot be peaceful. Full of śūdras, fourth-class men. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for creating some first-class men. This is our ideal. Therefore we forbid them not to take meat, not to have illicit sex, not to..., because these things are accepted by the fourth-class, fifth-class men: unrestricted sex life, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are not to be indulged by the first-class, second-class men, even third-class. It begins from the fourth-class men. Fourth-class, fifth-class. So if one remains to the category of the fourth-class, fifth-class man, how he can be trained up as first-class man? Therefore these things are prohibited because our aim is to create some first-class men.

Morning Walk -- May 29, 1974, Rome:

Haihaya: The same possibilities of education to everyone.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Where is equal right? That is also with the capitalists also. The same thing, we divide. We divide that "This is brāhmaṇa, this is kṣatriya, this is vaiśya, this is śūdra." We also divide, and you also divide. Then where is the advancement in philosophy?

Haihaya: Because they think that capitalists, they don't give the same possibilities to earn...

Prabhupāda: They think, but we see practically: Why there is difference between this manager and the laborer class? Will the dictator, the manager will take the same salary as the sweeper is taking? Why there is difference? Why the manager is given more preference for living condition? Where is equality? First of all show me. Simply talking will not do.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra, natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section, like the belly, another section, like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Find out this verse.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras. They are called pañcamas. These are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas, or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas, the fifth class men are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable. So they are also many: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). There is... Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Read it.

Nitāi:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas (merchants), as well as śūdras (workers)—can approach the supreme destination."

Prabhupāda: So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there is no such distinction because we are interested with the soul. The soul is the same everywhere and these designations are different. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is above designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). One is freed from all designation. Actually, on the spiritual level, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, anyone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above all these divisions. Sa guṇān samatītya.

Prabhupāda: And that is already there. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The, the, in Vedic astrology, jāta-karma, they will say that "This child is a śūdra, this child is a brāhmaṇa, this child is a kṣatriya." By the birth, by the constellation of the stars, it will be done. It is already being done. And in the medical laboratory, the blood has been tested, brāhmaṇa, śūdra, vaiśya, there is different blood. Yes. The blood infusion. So if the, a different blood is infused, it does not act. So one doctor, in India, he was permanently keeping different bloods for different persons. So there is some meaning in the caste system. But that is not... In a brāhmaṇa family, a śūdra may also take birth. Śūdra blood. So to keep the blood brahminical, therefore the reformatory system is there, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra and all the saṁskāras. Before birth, they keep, to keep the blood brahminical, there is ceremony.

Room Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: So use this. This is one of the business. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). We don't stop trade. We don't stop food, producing food grains. But we want to stop these killing houses. It is very, very sinful. Therefore in Europe, so many wars. Every ten years, fifteen years, there is a big war and wholesale slaughter of the whole human kind. And these rascals, they do not see it. The reaction must be there. You are killing innocent cows and animals. Nature will take revenge. Wait for that. As soon as the time is ripe, the nature will gather all these rascals, and club, slaughter them. Finished. They will fight amongst themselves, Protestant and Catholic, Russian and France, and France and Germany. This is going on. Why? This is the nature's law. Tit for tat. You have killed. Now you become killed. Amongst yourselves. They are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And here, you'll create slaughterhouse, "Dum! dum!" and killed, be killed. You know. You showed me?

Bhagavān: Yeah, French guillotine.

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Next class, the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44).

Nitāi:

kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ

vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam

paricaryātmakaṁ karma

śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.44)

"Farming, cattle-raising and business are the qualities of the work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras, there is labor and service to others."

Prabhupāda: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all śūdras, fourth-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth-class. Democracy means selected, I mean to..., voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore, there are so many anomalies.

Morning Walk -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: But we are giving you the process of cleansing. Why you are persisting to remain unclean? We are giving you the medicine. We are all unclean. Now we are attempting and we are becoming clean. Why don't you come and be cleansed? (break) ...Navadvīpa. From the day you arrive there, you'll be cleansed. I have got such a nice place. Come there, and stay, according to our rules and regulations. He'll be cleansed. One may be diseased but there are so many clinics, so many physicians, cleaning. Why should you insist to remain unclean? (break) That is accepted. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ (?). By birth, everyone is a śūdra. Śūdra means unclean. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. But he takes to the reformatory methods, he becomes cleansed, dvija, twice-born, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya.

Morning Walk -- June 17, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...samudvigna, always full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Intelligence is always absorbed: "Enemy may not come. Let me discover this, discover this atom bomb. This will save me. This will save me." This is their position. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Why this anxiety? Because they have accepted something false as truth. Asad-grahāt. They have accepted sense gratification is the truth. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. Indriyāṇi means senses. Parā, supreme. This is supreme. And then, if somebody is little advanced, indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. Then the mental speculators, psychologists, philosophers, another, better class of rascals... This is the third-class rascal, and they are second-class rascal. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ, manasas tu parā buddhiḥ (BG 3.42). Then the intelligent class. They consider, "What is this nonsense? They are all suffering here." In this way, one who becomes actually intelligent, wise, then he understands, "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So that highest position we are giving by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not training them to be first-class fools, second-class fools, third-class... No. First-class intelligent. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura. Without being first-class, intelligent man, nobody can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness (break) ...drink everything. And why they fight? What is the cause? Suppose father gives all necessities of life to the children. Why they should fight? Simply ignorance and foolishness. That's all. Where is the cause of fighting? Just like Pāṇḍavas, to settle up their misunderstanding, Kṛṣṇa said, "All right, they are kṣatriyas, They cannot take up the occupation of vaiśya or śūdra. Give them five villages so that they'll be happy.

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Because they are receptive. And their intelligence is intact. Old man takes time.

Reverend Powell: (laughs) Yes, well, that's very true, sir. Your Grace, what's the parable of the talents, that some were given a few, and some were...

Prabhupāda: Now, the talents are described. Find that Eighteenth Chapter, śamo damas titikṣā. Then...

Reverend Powell: What I'd like (break) I'd like to hear this, but...

Prabhupāda: Talents are divided into three categories: the brāhmaṇa category, and the kṣatriya category, the vaiśya category and the śūdra category. They are described here.

Reverend Powell: And this...

Prabhupāda: What are the qualifications of a brāhmaṇa. Symptoms.

Room Conversation with Scientists -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Dr. Harrap: But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak... Yes, you know him? One of our staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk.

Prabhupāda: No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Kṛṣṇa said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Find out that verse. You do not have that Kṛṣṇa Book?

Cāru:

kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ

vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam

paricaryātmakaṁ karma

śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.44)

"Translation: Farming, cattle-raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas, and for the śūdras there is labor and service to others..."

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa... We are following the leadership of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was so fond of cows, cows' milk, cows' butter, that He was stealing cows' butter. Yes. Find out that picture.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

Guest (5): Do the same rules apply to women as to men?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that in the society women, working class, and the mercantile class, they are, according to Vedic scripture, they are less intelligent, women, working class and mercantile men. Just like mercant..., they are after money, that's all. And śūdra, they want, after job. And women means they are after fulfilling their material desires. They have no other idea, that there is Brahmān, one should know Brahmān... They do not care to know. Therefore they are called śūdras, stri, śūdra, vaiśya. Yes. Vaiśya. So Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

So it is not blocked for anyone. Anyone can get Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Anyone can go back to home, back to Godhead, provided you follow the regulative principle. Then it is possible for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's woman, whether he's working class, whether he's a śūdra or a brāhmaṇa. It doesn't matter. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "Even they can go. And what to speak of the brāhmaṇas?" Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayaḥ... (BG 9.33). If the brāhmaṇas, they cultivate spiritual knowledge, it becomes very easy for them. Even they can go, śūdras, stri, vaiśya. These are all the statement.

Prabhupāda: Why sannyāsī? Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32). He does not say to become sannyāsī. He said, "One who takes shelter of Me very firmly..." We have to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. You become sannyāsī or not sannyāsī—it doesn't matter. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. He never says that "You become sannyāsī." He never said. The qualification is how to become firmly fixed up at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is qualification. But sannyāsī is a process. Brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha—that is a process. But one who takes directly shelter of Kṛṣṇa is above all these processes.

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

Those who are pure devotees—avyabhicāreṇi, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Brs. 1.1.11)—such persons are above this material infection. So therefore he doesn't require to accept sannyāsa or brahmacārī. He doesn't... These are gradual processes, to come to the varṇāśrama system, then accept the varṇa and āśramas, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha. This is called varṇāśrama system. But this is the beginning of human life. One who does not take to this system, he's animal because animal, there is no such system. And because in this age the varṇāśrama is not observed, therefore men are like animals. Dharmeṇa hīnā paṣubhiḥ samānāḥ. Dharma means this varṇāśrama-dharma. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So if the human society does not accept dharma, then he's as good as animal.

Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas:

Prabhupāda: Why not? There are so many women. Knowledge is not restricted to men. It is open for everyone. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

(break) Everyone is open. Just like university. University is not restricted to a certain class. It is open for everyone. Everyone can go, take the knowledge. And similarly, prison house is open for everyone. (laughter) Now you make your choice whether you go to university or prison house.

Prabhupāda: Our first problem is, because we have got this material body, eating. Everyone must eat. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) "If there is sufficient food grains, then both man and animal, they become happy." Therefore our first religion is to produce food grain sufficiently to feed everyone. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva (BG 18.44). This matter has been entrusted to the vaiśyas. They should produce sufficient food and give protection to the cows for sufficient milk. Then the whole human society, animal society, will be happy. But we are disobeying the orders or the rules given by God. Instead of producing food, we are producing motorcars. And motor tires, motor parts. And so many other things. And therefore people are starving. The manual labor is being misused. We are disobeying the orders of God. Therefore we are unhappy. I have seen all over the world. There are enough space for producing food grains. And if we actually produce food grain, we can maintain ten times of the present population of the whole world.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: You will kill me; I will kill you. That's all. Therefore God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The human society should be divided into four classes of men: the most intelligent class, brāhmaṇa; the next intelligent class, kṣatriya; then next intelligent class, vaiśyas; and the fourth-class men, who cannot become brāhmaṇa, neither kṣatriya, nor vaiśya, they are called śūdra. Śūdra is meant for giving service to the others. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). So in this age, 99% people are engaged as śūdra, working for others. No independence. Otherwise brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they are independent. They are nobody's servant. But at the present moment, education means how to become expert servant. That means śūdra. So we cannot expect any good things from śūdra. That is not possible. Formerly there was monarchy, and the kings were called rājarṣis, saintly king. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). These instruction are meant for the rājarṣis, not for the śūdras. So the rājarṣis, they would take instruction from superior authority, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, and they will accordingly rule over. And the vaiśyas would produce food grains sufficiently and milk sufficiently. People would eat very nicely, and they keep their health fit and save time for understanding his relationship with God. That is perfect civilization.

Room Conversation with Bernard Manischewitz -- March 5, 1975, New York:

Bernard Manischewitz: This is on experience, on the experience that they have.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is experience. You will find many healthy persons in India subsisting only on these foodstuffs, and they have good brain also. India is still, I think, eighty percent people are strictly vegetarian. Not to speak of the higher class, but the lower class also. The higher class, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Vaiśya is via media, between higher and lower. And the śūdras and less that the śūdras, caṇḍālas, they are lower class. So meat-eating is current among these lower class of men, śūdras and caṇḍālas. The caṇḍālas, they have no discrimination, they eat everything, and śūdras, they eat meat, but under restriction. Some of them do not; some of them do, but under restriction, and that is restricted with the goat animal. Less than the śūdras-caṇḍālas, pañcama, fifth grade—they eat everything. Especially they eat—because cow protection in India is very strict—so these caṇḍālas, fifth grade men, they eat generally pigs. Pigs they eat. Outside the village, they have their residential quarters, and they fry live pigs. And they make... Not daily; sometimes. But they eat pigs, and amongst them, there is a class—they are cobblers—they eat this cows' flesh when the animal is dead, not living and we'll kill.

Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London:

Reporter: Will they be virtually living outside...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Outside also you can live. Simply you must know how to live. At the present moment you do not know how to live. That's all. And there is no education how to live. All of us being sent to the slaughterhouse, that's all. They do not know how to live. In the Vedic civilization you will find the first proposition is how to live. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). How to live... First the human society is divided into four: the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya, or the śūdra. The first-class intelligent man, they are educated as brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Just like we are training engineer, similarly, a class of men, those who are very intelligent, they should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. They should be trained up how to speak truth any circumstance. Even to the enemy he will speak truth. This requires training, not that foolishly, a cats' and dogs' life. What is the value of this life? The modern civilization, they do not know how to live. They are simply interested in eating, and that's also any nonsense eating. But according to Vedic civilization, "This eating is first class. This eating is second class. This eating is third class. This eating is fourth class." So many things required to correct the mistaken way of civilization. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Morning Walk -- March 11, 1975, London:

Prabhupāda: India what do you mean by? Not the modern India. India was the whole world.

Devotee (1): So all the different kinds of human beings actually were originated there?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...men, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. First, second, third. Then fourth is the śūdras. And the fifth, caṇḍālas: no Vedic culture. They are caṇḍālas. So the Europeans, they were kṣatriyas originally. On account of Paraśurāma's massacre process, they fled from India to European side. And Greece and Rome, they were given—I think, Turkey also—given to two sons of Mahārāja Yayāti. They refused the order of the father. The father was very licentious. So he begged from two sons that "You give me your youth." They refused. So therefore they were banished in this part of the world.

Morning Walk -- March 11, 1975, London:

Prabhupāda: They were not properly doing their duties. So Paraśurāma said, "I will kill all of them." Formerly kṣatriyas were guided by the brāhmaṇas, even Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all the rules and regulations. But the brāhmaṇas were the legislative assembly. And kṣatriyas were the executive, and the vaiśyas, productive, and śūdras worker. At the present moment there is no director, neither executive. Some of them are only productive, and some of them are worker, most of them. Therefore it is said, kalau śūdraḥ-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga, mostly all the people are śūdras. Because they are workers. (break) Everyone can be purified, even the caṇḍālas. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). Yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. Yavanas means these European groups, and khasādayaḥ, Mongolian group: China, Japan. So Japanese were there in Vedic age also. Kālayavana. Kālayavana fought with Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- March 11, 1975, London:

Brahmānanda: It is difficult to come to that understanding, that actually, those who are the leaders are not to be trusted.

Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation. Taxation by the government, and there will be no rain, there will be famine, no food, and they will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their family and go away, gacchanti giri-kananam, will go, enter into the hills and forest, giving up their hearth and home. This is Kali-yuga. And this is due to their godlessness. On account of this, then the democracy, means anyone, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, anyone who becomes powerful, he will capture the government post. So the śūdras, they are now powerful. Śūdras. Industry means śūdra. So they will capture the governmental power. Just like Communist.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are in need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra. So this is very scientific. How it not be scientific? It is spoken by God. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Required. Just like in this institution, I am guru, and if everyone becomes guru, then who will carry out the order of guru? There must be disciple also, who will carry out the order of guru. So it is not required... Just like in your body, it is not that body is made of head only, but head is required. You cannot avoid head, neither you can avoid the leg. So śūdra required, the brāhmaṇa required, the kṣatriya required, and the vaiśya required. And the society should be very nicely managed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ. Why does He not say one varṇa, brāhmaṇa? Naturally there must be division because all men are not of the same quality. You cannot expect. So whatever quality he has got, utilize that. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. The one man is lame, and one man is blind. So both are useless. So they combine together. The lame man was taken on the shoulder of the blind man. So the lame man has no leg, but he has got eyes. He was directing, "Go this way." So both their business was perfect. Similarly, according to the quality of the work, there must be a class of men less intelligent. They cannot independently work. They must require a master. That is śūdra. And then the vaiśya, then the kṣatriya, and the upper man is brāhmaṇa. He gives the direction to the kṣatriya. He is ruler.

Morning Walk -- (World War III) -- April 4, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Therefore, now the war is between people to people, nation to nation. They support with men and money. So therefore they are also killed by nature's law. (break)

Rāmeṣvara: Prabhupāda, in the Ādi-līlā, you wrote that the Communist movement is greater than the capitalist movement because there are more śūdras than vaiśyas so that in a war between Communism and capitalism, the Communists would win.

Prabhupāda: Naturally. They are in greater number.

Rāmeṣvara: But these modern wars are fought with missiles and bombs more than armies.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, also, there were brahmāstra, fire, firearms, brahmāstra. (break) ...problems that we are facing, they were also in the past under different name, different form.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never says that, that "You send your children to the universities and make them fools and rascals." So one who is depending on job, he's a śūdra. That is not education. Education is not meant for the śūdra but for the dvijas, twice-born, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, and vaiśya. Śūdras are never for education. So their education, so-called education, means creating so many śūdras. Unless he gets a job his education is useless. Therefore he's a śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—they will create their own means of livelihood. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Therefore they are unhappy. They don't get job, neither they are able to work independently.

Nalinī-kānta: Punishment is not the best means of reformation. Sometimes if someone is sent to jail by the government, he'll simply be thinking, "Oh, when I can get out and depose these rascals?" So if someone is punished by God, he might become more angry towards God.

Prabhupāda: But that does not mean God will stop punishing. Just like these animals. The stick is there. He may be angry, but stick is required. Otherwise you cannot work with him. "Hut!" You see? The stick is there in his hand. Otherwise he cannot get work. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: All people.

Governor: No, all people... One or two could be taken out of many.

Prabhupāda: No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The guṇas are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person. That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of brāhmaṇa, proper training of kṣatriya, vaiśya, must be given. These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that?

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Brahmānanda: "Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti, we must adopt the whole varṇa and āśramas as they are recommended in all the śāstras. If you give up these directions of the śāstras, that is neither dharma nor saṁsṛti, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the Bhagavad-gītā that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsī must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of bhāratīya sanskṛiti."

Prabhupāda: If you give up this varṇāśrama-dharma, then where is your bhāratīya sanskṛiti? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Brahmānanda: "Six: Injunctions of śāstras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. So the mutual relationship of dharma and politics in the light of our history and tradition can only be revived when we observe the system of varṇāśrama. It is actually like this: the brāhmaṇa is like the head, and the kṣatriya is like the arms, the vaiśya is the stomach or the abdomen, and the śūdra is like the legs. Similarly, spiritually, the brahmacārī is the trained-up disciple, the gṛhastha is the trained-up householder, the vānaprastha is experienced as a retired gentleman, and the sannyāsī is completely in the renounced order of life for spiritual advancement. There is no question of the head being in an exalted position without the cooperation of the leg. When there is a pin-prick in some part of the leg, the head immediately takes it very seriously and takes out the thorn in some part of the leg. Similarly, whenever there is some outside attack, the arms or the hands spread to protect the whole body. In the same way, within the abdomen there is the machinery of digesting foodstuffs, and after digestion the secretion turns into blood and it is infused throughout the whole anatomical structure of the body. Similarly, the cooperation between the head, arms, stomach and legs is the perfect situation of the human society."

Governor: Coordination.

Prabhupāda: Coordination. As head is also trying to maintain the body nicely, this arm is also. Now this has been nationally centralized. So that is the idea. Not that "Because I am head, brāhmaṇa, oh, here is a śūdra. Oh, don't see his face." Why? Śūdra is also required. Leg is also required. Head is also required.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Governor: No, birth also was built up by a tradition. They were brought up in that atmosphere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter. But if he wants to be elevated, he should be given chance. That is the verdict of all śāstras. Now we are feeling, India, this difficulty. Because they are Europeans, Americans, the so-called big societies, they are not agreeable to accept them. You see? Although śāstra does not say so. Śāstra says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. "If one takes shelter of Me, even he is born in pāpa-yoni"... Striyaḥ vaiśyās tathā..., te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim, "they can also be elevated to the highest exalted position." And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is, many places it is said that a low-born person can be elevated. Caṇḍalo 'pi dvija śreṣṭho hari-bhakti-parāyaṇaḥ.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Ah. Varnāśrama college, that training factual brāhmaṇa. And the government should be, as I explained to you, that if one is proclaiming himself as a brāhmaṇa, he must act as a brāhmaṇa. If one is proclaiming as a kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Otherwise, there will be no restriction, and a śūdra will claim to be brāhmaṇa. That will create a disturbing situation. In Pṛthu Mahārāja's time it was strictly prohibited that... That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ. So if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa he must be brāhmaṇa. That is another way of reforming the society. And nowadays everyone is a śūdra, and somebody is claiming, "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am this," "I am that." Formerly the brāhmaṇas (were) strictly following. They would not accept... In the śāstras it is said that the brāhmaṇa in bad time may become a kṣatriya. Just like Dronācārya. He was brāhmaṇa, but he became a kṣatriya for certain reason, and acting like kṣatriya, although he was respected as brāhmaṇa, but he was acting as a kṣatriya. So it is advised that brāhmaṇa may take the profession of a kṣatriya and up to the vaiśya. But if he takes the profession of a śūdra, then he is fallen. Then he is fallen. So this cultural institution should now be introduced. And the other countries, they are still respectful to the Indian culture. That's a fact. I have studied. So if we keep ourself in our, what he has mentioned, samsriti?

Evening Discussion -- May 6, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: It is explained there. He does not reveal Himself. Why He shall reveal Himself to an unqualified person? That is Kṛṣṇa's prerogative. If He likes He will reveal. If He does not like He will not reveal. You cannot by force see Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, first of all be qualified, then try to see Kṛṣṇa. He is not exposed. Even a big man, if you want to see him, he may refuse: "No, I will not see." What can you do? If you think that "This man is third-class man, why shall I see him?" Even in ordinary human society that is going on. So why people are eager to see Kṛṣṇa without being qualified? Why these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" First of all you become fit to see God. They'll not become fit. They'll do all nonsense, and want to see God. Kṛṣṇa is addressed, pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. He is the supreme pure, and we are impure, and you want to see the supreme pure. You see? What audacity! I am not fire. I want to enter into the fire. You see? What will be the result? You'll be burned into ashes. First of all be fire. Increase your temperature to the same temperature, then it will automatically. He is paraṁ brahma, so you realize yourself as brahma. You are realizing yourself as American, Indian, this, that, and you want to see paraṁ brahma? The foolish people will do. And one has to become purified, sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ (CC Madhya 19.170). One has to be free from all designations. Everyone, we give more prominence to the designations: "I am this, I am this." So how can you see God like that? First of all you become designationless. As Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, that "I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a vaiśya"—everything He denied.

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: That's not as easy.

Prabhupāda: No, it is very easy. It is simply, as we are teaching our students, just become a devotee, offer namaskār, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, always think of Him, and you will go to Him. It is not at all difficult. Bahavo jñāna-tapasā pūtā mad-bhāvam āgatāḥ. Bahavo, many, did come to Me. How? Jñāna-tapasā, by knowledge and tapasya, being purified, they come to Me. Kṛṣṇa says. Why you are disappointed? You can go. Kṛṣṇa is open. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Striya śūdra tathā vaiśya, even the women, less intelligent, the śūdra, vaiśya, they can come. Where is the difficulty? Even if you are born very lowest, you can go. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone. Simply you become qualified. That's all. And what is the qualification? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), just always think of Me, become My devotee, offer your respects to Me, and man-manā, worship Me. Four things. That... We are opening this temple (in Melbourne) for this purpose, that you always think of Him, you worship Him, you offer obeisances to Him, and become His devotee. And then? Mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.68), without a doubt you will come to Him. What is the difficulty? There is no difficulty.

Prabhupāda: Even in your body there is class. The head class, the arm class, the belly class, the leg class. They are working differently for benefit of the whole body. That is natural. If you avoid and if you simply keep the leg, then it will be chaotic condition. Or even if you keep the head only, that will not stand. There must be four. That is natural. That is the Vedic mantra it is said—you are reading the other day—the brāhmaṇas, they came out of the mouth. The kṣatriyas, they came out of the arms. The vaiśyas, they came out of the belt. And the śūdras, they came out of the legs. This is mantra. How you can avoid it? Kṛṣṇa says, "It is My creation. How you can avoid it?" You cannot avoid anything which is created by Kṛṣṇa. Just like sunshine. It is created by Kṛṣṇa. You cannot say, "No, no. I don't want sunshine." That is foolishness. If you want to avoid, then you'll suffer. The sunshine is there, and if you go into the dark place, and cover yourself, then the sunshine is outside, that's all. The sun may not suffer—you'll suffer. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that "This caste system is created by Me." If you don't accept it, then you'll suffer. Kṛṣṇa will not suffer. (leaves car) ...introducing the caste system, we are introducing a system which, you follow, you'll be happy. Not caste system. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: You have also caste system in the Western countries. You are not without caste system. There is a priestly class. So there are politicians, there are industrialists, merchants, and ordinary laborer. Where is...? How you can say there is no caste system in your country?

Jayadharma: But there may be the clergymen and the mercantile class and the soldiers and the laborers, in this particular society, but this society is breaking away from that because they are not recognizing the clergy class of men because nobody is going to church, nor is anybody giving any money to the church these days. This is why many churches...

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think, that you say that your charge is "They are introducing caste system." But the Hindu caste system is already there. How do you say that I am introducing? That is my point.

Jayadharma: That is my foolishness.

Prabhupāda: (laughing lightly) You cannot say that I have introduced it. It is already there. As it is there in India, it is also everywhere. It may be under different names. The four classes are already there, everywhere. The... Even in Muslim, they have also got the (indistinct), what is called, mohallas, priestly class. They have got. We are introducing the systematic caste system, but caste system is already there, everywhere. Maybe under different names. And it is necessary.

Prabhupāda: (laughing lightly) You cannot say that I have introduced it. It is already there. As it is there in India, it is also everywhere. It may be under different names. The four classes are already there, everywhere. The... Even in Muslim, they have also got the (indistinct), what is called, mohallas, priestly class. They have got. We are introducing the systematic caste system, but caste system is already there, everywhere. Maybe under different names. And it is necessary. The caste system is there as a matter of necessity. You cannot abolish it. But it is now existing in a deformed manner. People should be systematic and organized. That we are trying to. Not that a new thing we are trying to introduce. It is already there. Our proposition is that "You priestly class, you must act exactly as a priest-ideal priest. You are a drunkard, you are woman-hunter, you are doing everything nonsense, and at the same time you are passing on as priest—this should be stopped." This should be stopped. The priestly class, or the brāhmaṇas, they should be trained up to become truthful, how to control mind, how to control senses, and tolerant, and very learned, knowing God also—these things are required. They should be the first-class, ideal men. Similarly, the kṣatriyas, they must be fearless; they must be very boldly, face fighting the enemies; they must have the capacity to govern nicely so that people will not have any complaint against the government. In this way they should be trained up. And the mercantile class of man, they should produce enough food grains, not motor tires. That is śūdra's business—artisans—that is śūdra. The vaiśyas' business is first to see that in the country there is enough food for eating—both for the human being and the animals. The human being should not complain that there is no sufficient food grains, therefore they're eating flesh. No. Flesh is not for human being. They should live on food grains. Just like dahl. Dahl is as good as meat. It is from food grain. And there is sufficient varieties of dahl they can eat. They can make so many preparations, palatable preparations. Why are the prices of food grains increasing? Because there is shortage. If there is enough food, the price will automatically decrease, because everyone want to sell. So, the price will decrease, naturally. It will be so lavishly available that you can give food grains even to the animals, like cows and goats and other so many animals. Let them eat. That is the business of the vaiśya man.

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: They have no such civilization as to maintain a slaughterhouse. The tigers eat meat, but they do not keep a slaughterhouse. And you are civilized. You are keeping slaughterhouse. Why should you keep? The government shouldn't allow you to keep slaughterhouses. If anyone wants to eat meat, let them eat like tigers and others. Individually, kill one animal—a lower animal, not cows. This should be the government law. You can kill one insignificant animal, like pigs or goats. It has not very much use. You kill it in your home, before your children and family, and eat. The government may not have any objection. But why should you maintain slaughterhouses? So the agriculturist and the mercantile men, they should produce enough food, give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, sell it. Where there is not enough food grain produced you can make business. That is the instruction given in Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). That is really needed. Nobody is interested. Everyone comes to the city, the mercantile class. They are doing business, big, big skyscraper building, and they have artificial money, paper. And instead of eating food grains they are maintaining slaughterhouses. This is not good civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (1): For instance, a man who is in the mode of passion like a kṣatriya, he only finds satisfaction when he's engaged in warfare or administrative work. Similarly so with a vaiśya or a śūdra...

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think it is... Maybe it is described in Seventeenth Chapter. According to our free will, we are associating with certain type of the modes of material nature, and then we become subjected to that material modes. The same example: you infect some disease, contamination, and you gain the result of it. So our endeavor should be how to raise ourself to the first, to the sattva-guṇa. That we can do. And then transcend sattva-guṇa and reach the spiritual platform. Everyone is trying to improve his position, but they do not know what is meant by improvement. Improvement means mostly they are in tamo-guṇa, ignorance. So rise from tamo-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to sattva-guṇa, and then sattva-guṇa to transcendence. That is improvement. So generally, people are suffering on account of association with tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, whole material world, mostly tamo-guṇa and few of them in rajo-guṇa. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa are lust and greediness. Just like yesterday you told me the students are talking about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, that the education-students, they are discussing about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, lusty desires, very prominent, and how to fulfill, by homosex or sex with woman.

Morning Walk -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Huh? There is no loss, still they will not do it. We don't say that don't live in the... We are living in nice building; you also live in nice building. But see, do, see what we are doing there. Everyone can do it. Everyone can... That is Vedic culture, and everywhere Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa-śilā is worshiped. At least the higher castes, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—not the śūdras. Don't eat meat, don't have intoxication, no illicit sex, have Kṛṣṇa's picture, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, make nice preparation, where is the difficulty? Take this civilization.

Devotee: Many karmīs think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you are born and then you die and that is the finish.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Many karmīs think that you are born and then you die and then finish.

Prabhupāda: No. That is not the fact. You are born a child, then you get a youthful body, where you are finished? Does it mean that when the childish body is finished, the soul is also finished? Why he remembers, "Oh I was a child like this." This is simple argument. Where you are finished?

Madhudviṣa: You can see the progression. When you are born you are small...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous law to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be neglected. According to Cāṇakya Paṇḍita... He was great politician. He has said that dampatya kalahe caiva bahvārambhe laghu kriyā. The husband and wife's quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Ajā yuddhe (More quote by Cāṇakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say "Hut!" they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, "Yes, come to the court." This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law. Another defect is that there is no method how to train a man to become first class. That is there in the Vedic civilization. Now of course in India that is also now abolished by degradation.

Otherwise the society was divided into four classes—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas were first-class men, ideal. But in the society there is no ideal men. One should have some example, living example, to see "Oh, here is an ideal man." So the ideal man is described here in our Bhagavad-gītā. What is the ideal? Any man can be trained up. Not cent percent, but even one percent man becomes ideal, the ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But there is no ideal man. That is the defect.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Amogha: He says that we all want to be heads.

Prabhupāda: No. That is a very good idea, but the leg is also required. If you simply keep the head and there is no leg, then it is incomplete. Everything is required. To keep the body fit you require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require leg. That is the system of varṇāśrama-dharma. In India you have heard that there is a class, brāhmaṇa. Now it is now broken. But this is the Vedic civilization, that one class of men should be the brāhmaṇas, first class. One class of man should be kṣatriya, the administrators, politicians. One class of man should be food producer, vaiśya. And one class of man should be laborer, who has no brain but he can assist the other three.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: The Vedic civilization, therefore, teaches the student, brahmacārī, how to remain without sex life. Those who are unable to continue that, they are allowed, "All right, be married life." And that is also for twenty-five years. A student remains brahmacārī up to twenty-five years, and if we wants to take this sex license-household life means sex life—so he can get the license for twenty-five years more. So at the age of fifty years, fiftieth year, he gives up voluntarily. He keeps his wife with him just to assist him to advance in spiritual life, and they go from one holy place to another. And then when they are practiced, then the woman is sent to his elderly sons to take care and the man takes sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra... And the sannyāsa is especially meant for the brāhmaṇas, not the kṣatriyas or the vaiśyas because they are not very much advanced. But the brāhmaṇa is advanced from the very beginning. Therefore sannyāsa is for the brāhmaṇa. The system that without being a brāhmaṇa nobody can take sannyāsa. So I am criticized by others in India that I am giving sannyāsa to them. Of course, according to the principle, they are not fit for sannyāsa, but because Caitanya Mahāprabhu also took sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four years... Śaṅkarācārya took sannyāsa at the age of eight years. He lived only for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. So for ordinary man, sannyāsa is difficult. But for preaching work, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's footprints we are trying to follow.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So we can see on equal level when (sic:) you become a brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ, not in the United Nation, passing resolution and fight is going on outside, because they have no vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So the politicians should be guided by the brāhmaṇas. That is social structure. Those who are first-class men in the spiritual understanding... Or the politicians, the administrators, they should take instruction from the brāhmaṇas and take part in politics. Then they will be also first-class men. You haven't got to drag him down again. First of all elect, and drag him down. This is mistake. Just like you elected Nixon president; again you dragged him down, because there was mistake. You do not know who to elect because you are not guided by brāhmaṇas. This is the fault. The whole society is being guided by the mle..., śūdras and some portion vaiśyas. Mostly śūdras and some certain percentage, mercantile. And no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa. Therefore, for the peaceful life in human society, there must be four divisions. Find out this verse, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Jayatīrtha: 4.13.

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

(BG 4.13)

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa created these four division, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, but He does not belong to any one of them. He is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya nor śūdra. He is transcendental. Similarly, our philosophy—just to make the human society very peaceful and making progress we wish to establish this system. A first-class man, group of men, brāhmaṇas, they will guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas, the administrators, they will guide the vaiśya. Vaiśya means agriculture and cow protection and trade. And śūdra means those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśyas. They are simply worker, assistant. So there must be division like this. The brāhmaṇas should guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas will administer the state, and the vaiśyas will produce foodstuff, and śūdras will help. Cooperation for common benefit. But the aim is spiritual realization. That is perfect society. If everyone is śūdra, without any aim of life, then there will be chaos. Just like in your country, in spite of so much facility for education, the students are produced hippies, useless for all purposes. Why? I have gone to so many universities.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is criticizing him that "You are a kṣatriya. You have learned how to kill, and now you are hesitating? What is the nonsense?" So kṣatriyas are taught. So they have to rule over. So if required, the demons and the culprit, should immediately cut off his head, duty of the government. So all of a sudden you cannot do that. Just like in your country a young man, he has never learned how to kill and he is drawn in the draft board, "Come on. Go and kill." What he will do? He will hesitate. This is not perfect system. If you want a kṣatriya, you must train them. You must train a class of men as brāhmaṇas. You must train a class of men as kṣatriya and a class of men as agriculturist and cow protection, and balance are workers. That is cātur-varṇyam: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But the kṣatriya or the president or the secretary, they are sitting very comfortably at our home and some poor young men—"Come on. Go and fight." What is this? What they will fight? They will die there, that's all. If he does not know how to fight, that energy is lacking, what he will do there?

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: That is second-class. And the third-class?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ

vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam

paricaryātmakaṁ karma

śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam

(Bg 18.44)

"Farming, cattle raising and business are the qualities..."

Prabhupāda: They are not cattle raising, that was...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cow protection.

Prabhupāda: Cow protection. It has to be corrected. It is go-rakṣya, go. They take it cattle-raising. I think Hayagrīva has translated like this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hayagrīva.

Prabhupāda: No, it is especially mentioned go-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And then...?

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: How they can be? They are not trained up. They are not trained up from the very beginning. For being trained up, there is another four divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. These are the training divisions. So for the first-class, second-class, third-class, all the students, they are trained up as brahmacārī, student life. Brahmacārī means celibacy, live under the direction of the teacher and accept all kinds of hardship under the teacher's or spiritual master direction. Children, they can easily take it. If a child, a small child, I ask him, "My dear child, you take my shoes and keep it there," he will immediately agree. He has no sense, "Oh, he is asking me to take his shoes." He will immediately agree. Even he is very rich man's son. So this life is advised that a student live just like a menial servant of the teacher or the spiritual master. And they agree. We have got good instances. And he is coming from the first-class family, brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family or vaiśya family, first, second, third. So even śūdra family, he can learn also. So brahmacārī. Then he is, if he can remain without wife or without opposite sex, then he continues to remain as brahmacārī. He is encouraged. This process encourages to remain brahmacārī, that "Don't take to sex life, it is entailed with so many difficulties. Practice to remain a brahmacārī. You'll save so much trouble." But if he is unable—the teacher sees-Then he is allowed to marry, marriage.

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Viṣṇujana: According to national statistics, as far as curing drug problems and crime problems, it's seen that social organizations that are supported by the town councils, etc. are usually about 3% effective in cases cured of either drug addiction or crime. But as far as religious organizations are concerned, some of them are 70, 80% effective in cases that have been attempted cure. So it's, as far as percentage cured, the process of introducing God consciousness is much more effective than some social reform or rehabilitation work or something like that.

Prabhupāda: No, social reform will automatically come. The first-class reform, the brāhmaṇas, if their advice is taken, then the other classes the kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdras, they become automatically.

Mayor: We're aware that a religious approach is more successful and our mental health society here is funding the Reverend Perry who is a black ordained, I think, a Baptist protestant minister, formerly a drug addict. And he's been working out with, especially with the blacks who have drug addiction and he achieves much more success than other agencies.

Prabhupāda: Which process? Drug addiction has been helped by somebody?

Brahmānanda: No, the mayor's saying that the administration is not against supporting religious organizations.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jayatīrtha: Who is to decide whether a person is first-class, if they are a brāhmaṇa or whether they are kṣatriya or vaiśya?

Prabhupāda: The book of knowledge. You can read Bhagavad-gītā. Find out, śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa.

Jayatīrtha:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.42)

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which a brāhmaṇa works."

Prabhupāda: This is first-class. Now śamo damaḥ... Śamaḥ means controlling the mind, mind is always peaceful. You can train. Then controlling the senses. Then truthful. Then full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life. These are the qualification of first-class man. Everything is there. If you train a boy to become first-class man, he can become first-class man. If you don't train, then he will become a debauch, criminal, disturbing. So we are training in the Gurukula to become first-class men. This is our aim. Unless in the society an ideal first-class man, then how one will become, or follow the ideal? There is no ideal. Now what is the idea of first-class man now? Can I ask you? What is your idea of first-class man? Whom do you call first-class man?

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: This is second-class. And then third-class?

Nitāi:

kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ

vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam

paricaryātmakaṁ karma

śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.44)

Prabhupāda: That is fourth-class. First of all, third-class.

Nitāi: Third-class: "Farming, cattle raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaiśyas,..."

Prabhupāda: Not cattle raising, cow protection.

Nitāi: Cow protection.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Farming and cow protection and trade, this is meant for the third-class division. And worker, fourth-class. These divisions must be there. Then the society will go on very nicely. Exactly the same example, that if the different parts of the body—the brain, the arms, the belly and the legs—all are in order, the bodily function will go on very nicely. This is natural.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Reporter (2): The cow?

Prabhupāda: Yes, cow, from where you get milk, that cow. So the exact word is used in Sanskrit, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Vaiśya, the third-class man, is called vaiśya. So his duty is how to produce food, food grains, for both for the animals and the man. And he gives protection to the cows. As the second-class man, the administrator, he gives protection to the human being from danger, similarly, the third-class man is entrusted to give protection to the cows. Cow is very important animal in the society because it is supplying milk, the most nutritious food. And... Find out. This is the third-class man's duty. And the fourth-class man means general worker. He has no brain, he simply helps the other three classes: first-class, second-class, and the third-class. And below the fourth-class men, they are called fifth-class, sixth-class. So they are called lower class, less than the fourth-class. So the society should be generally divided into four classes. As I have given example, there is head, arm, belly, and leg.

Room Conversation after Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: So you can write that spiritually, there is no such distinction. Spiritually, Kṛṣṇa says that "Although there is distinction in the material field, low and high, but one who takes shelter of Me..." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. Find out this verse.

Brahmānanda:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ

Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach:

"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas, merchants, as well as śūdras, workers—can approach the supreme destination. Purport. It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material... (break) ...than great jñānīs and yogis."

Prabhupāda: "Cheerful attitude." If cows know. They have got intelligence that "We will be killed." Therefore they are not supplying sufficient milk. They cannot, just like if your mind is full of anxiety, you cannot work fully. So because they are denied this cheerfulness, you are getting less milk. If you keep them cheerful, they will give more milk. This is nature's economic development. Artificially you cannot increase the production of milk. But according to the instruction of scripture, if you keep them cheerful without any fear, they will deliver double milk. So therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended that cows should be protected in the human society. If you want to eat meat, you can kill insignificant, small animal, but don't kill cows. There are other animals-hogs, pigs, goats, lambs or birds, so many, fish—if you are at all interested in meat-eating; but don't kill cow. Find out this verse from Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Those who are vaiśyas... Economic development... Vaiśya means economic development. They should produce ample food grains and give protection to the cows. Just like our Kṛṣṇa's life, His foster father was a vaiśya. So he is keeping so many hundred thousands of cows, and Kṛṣṇa was entrusted to take charge of the calves, Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: Let people be engaged. Machine means one man or two man working... That will mean unemployment. Machine means unemployment. The principle should be that everyone is employed. Either brāhmaṇa, either kṣatriya, either vaiśya or śūdra. Nobody should become idle and gossiping, and sleeping, then utilize... This should be principle. Everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then life is successful. And self-sufficient. If we have got spoiling living program, these are necessities. Growing, cultivating, producing, there will be not possibility of, and we don't want more than the necessity. If by God's grace we get more then you can make sale, we are not going to work for selling purpose. Then money will be there. How to get money, how to get money? And as soon as you get money, more than necessity, then sense gratification, then this, that, this, that, then you become implicated. Ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta... ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). As soon as you become implicated with material want, gṛha, kṣetra, vittair, ato gṛha kṣetra sutāpta, children, wife, friendship, then the false ego, "I am this body and this is my property," will increase. For that is material world. People do not know the end of life, or the aim of life. They are misguided, hence the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement to give them an ideal way of life. So this is very nice place. We have got small lakes also. Natural we have?

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughs) It may cost two cent. And you have got your sugar also. In this way organize. Avoid machine. Keep everyone employed as brāhmaṇa, as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. Nobody should sit down. Brāhmaṇas, they are writers, editors, lecturers, instructors, worshiping Deity, ideal character. They have no anxiety for food, for clothing. Others should supply them. They haven't got to work. Sannyāsī is always preaching, going outside. In this way keep everyone fully engaged. Then it will be ideal. Otherwise people will criticize that we are simply eating and sleeping, escaping, so many, so many. And actually that is the position. Unless one is fully engaged, oh, that is not good. That is tamo-guṇa. Tamo-guṇa, and rajo-guṇa very active, and sattva-guṇa, intellectual activity. Both of them, active, only tamo-guṇa, not active. (indistinct) Tamo-guṇa means sleeping and laziness. These are the symptoms of tamo-guṇa. Every saintly man can avoid these two things—laziness and sleeping. Of course, as much you require, sleeping allowed, not more than... And keep everyone active, man or woman-all. Then it will be ideal society.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Brahmānanda: This varṇāśrama college...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama means everyone should be engaged. There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct).

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what exactly do the... Do the vaiśyas cultivate the fields or the śūdras cultivate the fields?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jagadīśa: Is it the duty of the vaiśyas to cultivate the fields or...?

Prabhupāda: Actually it is the duty of the vaiśyas, but the śūdras can help everyone, the helpers. The śūdras will help the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, as well as the vaiśyas. Those who have no brain—simply they can carry out order—they are śūdras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying śāstras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brāhmaṇa. They haven't got to work as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brāhmaṇa, with good character.

Devotee (1): Distributing books?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaiśya, trade. It is a trade. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Kṛṣi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaiśya. So vaiśya does not require any university degree or any... Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brāhmaṇa should be very highly learned scholar. So the brāhmaṇas will give advice to the kṣatriya how to rule, and the kṣatriya will levy tax, and vaiśyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: Hm? Tax means... Everyone must have some income for maintaining. So brāhmaṇas, they(?) doesn't require any... They will live on the contribution of the society. Because they are giving for free service, so valuable service, knowledge, so they are provided by the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas. So they have no anxiety for earning livelihood. Things are coming. Just like we are maintained. At least people give to me contribution. So similarly, brāhmaṇa will live at the cost of others' contribution. That is source of income. Kṣatriyas, they'll levy tax. Kṣatriya is given land. Now he divides the land. I have got, say, two thousand acres of land. So I divide to the vaiśyas, one thousand this man, one thousand this man, one thousand. So on condition that "I give you this land. You produce foodstuff or utilize any way. You give me twenty-five percent."

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Devotee (1): Just like Nanda Mahārāja, he also had land. Nanda Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was therefore called king. But he was a vaiśya. He engaged his land for agriculture and cow keeping. And Kṛṣṇa took charge of the cows, the calves, although still calf, He, (indistinct) This is the system. He was going with the calves whole day, playing with the boys and taking care of the cows, in the evening come back. Mother then washes and bathes and gives nice food. And immediately goes to sleep. And Kṛṣṇa is clever. At night He goes to the gopīs. (laughter) Then Mother Yaśodā did not know, when she thought, "My good son is sleeping." And the gopīs also would come at a place and they'll dance. This is called life, childhood life. And when He was grown up, then He was brought to, I mean to say, Mathurā and He fought with His maternal uncle, killed him, and then His father Vasudeva, took care, sent Him to, what is that? Sāndīpani Muni. He was educated. He was learning every subject every day. Then He was taken to Dvārakā, married so many queens, and became king.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Satsvarūpa: In order to evidence this, should we consider that we have to act as kṣatriyas or shall we just preach and try to get others...

Prabhupāda: No... Kṣatriyas, I have already explained who is brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya according to guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), as you work, as you are fit for. If you are fit to become brāhmaṇa, become brāhmaṇa. If you are fit to become kṣatriya, become kṣatriya. If you are fit to become śūdra, do it. Three... Then... And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is śūdra. That's all. "Help. Help the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and take your food and little pocket expense. That's all." Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don't require, but even if it is required we can give.

Brahmānanda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members...

Prabhupāda: Yes, just to show people how to... The first-class men, brāhmaṇa, second-class, kṣatriya, third-class, vaiśya, fourth-class...

Satsvarūpa: But all in our society are Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: That is our real position. This is for management.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Nityānanda: You can have more than one?

Prabhupāda: No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule. As according to the work, if people are interested to work as vaiśya, let them become vaiśya. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as brāhmaṇa, let him work as brāhmaṇa. Let him work as kṣatriya. And the fourth-class, let him work as śūdra. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women. Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And śūdras can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Ruci, kachori, rabri, sandeṣa, rasagullā, panir... (Bengali) ...daily, 1,000 pound, Vṛndāvana. (Bengali) False propaganda.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, this August 24th and 31st, Dharmayan(?) is bringing up two big articles on us on Janmāṣṭamī, to do a series. August 24th issue and August 31st two very nice articles on us are appearing.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...gorakṣya. Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma-svabhāva-jam (Bg 18.44). Bhagavad-gītā. (Bengali)

Morning Walk -- September 25, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Prabhupāda: Society has lost this saṁskāra process; therefore they remain in the animal platform. Janman jāyate śūdra saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. When a person is born even in human society, he remains a śūdra. Śūdra means almost like animal. Now he has to be reformed. That is called saṁskāra. Then twice-born. The first-class twice-born is brāhmaṇa. Second-class twice-born is kṣatriya. And third-class twice-born is the vaiśya. And remaining, who cannot be reformed, they remain śūdra. But there is cooperation between brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and the society makes progress simultaneously for everyone. That is human society. At the present moment mostly all of them remain śūdras or less..., caṇḍālas. So how there can be any peace? It is not possible. There is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, maybe a few vaiśyas only. They are also half-reformed. And European culture, that is caṇḍāla culture, yavana culture. There is no reformation, no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, simply śūdras and caṇḍālas mostly caṇḍālas. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is means for thoroughly overhauling the whole human society. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you.

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: Therefore three modes of material nature by mixture-8,400,000's of species of life, by different mixture. And when you come to the original color, then the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya... And then you transcend the color; you come to the spiritual life. (break)

Bhārgava: ...prison. And then when he gets out of prison he has the memory of his punishment, and that acts as a deterrent to him committing the crime again. But if someone is sinful... (break)

Prabhupāda: It is tamo-guṇa. He knows everything; still, he is forced to act criminally. That is tamo-guṇa. Everyone knows that he will be punished. He has seen that criminal is punished. Still, he acts criminally. That is called ignorance. Heart is unclean. Therefore our first process is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), to cleanse the heart.

Press Conference -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: ...for the kṣatriya? Kṣatriya means one who gives protection from being hurt, kṣat. Kṣat means hurting. So suppose if I unnecessarily hurt you, then it is the duty of the government to give you protection. So unless I am also punished by violence, I cannot..., He cannot give you protection. So this is also necessary. Therefore in the society there must be kṣatriya. The brāhmaṇas should be learned; they should give instruction, advice. The kṣatriyas should give protection; the vaiśyas should produce, economic development; and rest, they should assist-śūdras, that's all. This is the program of Aryan society.

Guest (5) (Indian man): How long do you expect to stay in Mauritius?

Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda is leaving Sunday for Durban and Johannesburg.

Guest (5): And the others?

Brahmānanda: They will stay here. We're making a center here.

Guest (1): Have you any program of Swamiji for the common mass?

Brahmānanda: Here in the evenings.

Prabhupāda: Actually I want to speak only to the intelligent... (break) ...the common mass, they will not understand. But we can perform kīrtana for the common men, so that they may be purified.

Room Conversation -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: There will be some rascals. Let them do that, mouse. We enter as snake. (laughter) That's all. We are doing that. We are doing that. I did not manufacture this house, but somebody, some mouse, has done. (laughter) And we have entered it, that's all. That's all. This is going on all over the world. You know George Harrison? He has earned money with so great hard labor, and he has given us a house in London, fifty-five lakhs' worth. Another boy, Alfred Ford, he's the great grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. He has given. He is giving still money. He is prepared with all his money. So those who are after money, material things, we have to induce them that "Spend for me," that's all, and let him earn. So far we are concerned, we shall live very simple life, simply in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not go to construct big, big house. He simply constructs his character, and the other kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they offer him, "Please come here and sit down." Therefore the division is... One who is unable to become a brāhmaṇa, let him become kṣatriya. If he cannot become kṣatriya, let him become a vaiśya. Otherwise let him remain a śūdra. But there should be ideal class. So we are trying to create an ideal society of brāhmaṇas. Then people will be benefited. And if everyone is śūdra, rascal, then what people will be benefited? They do not know how to live. The brāhmaṇas will give idea, "Live like this. You will be happy."

Morning Walk -- Durban, October 13, 1975 :

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Radio, and things like this.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you want to make mass communication, you can do anything. (break) Due to industrialization, all intelligent men, they came in the city. In the village it was deserted. So there was no improvement in the village, and people preferred to come to the city, means industry, business. So India's basic principle was village life. Now that is lost. The intelligent class men, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they left villages for earning more money in the cities, and only the śūdras, less intelligent class of men, less than śūdras, they remained. So what they will do? So village became deserted. Still you’ll go and see in Indian villages, especially in Bengal, so many big, big palatial buildings, they are lying vacant.

Morning Walk -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya, then he is śūdra. That's all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Śūdra is also required.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now the incentive in modern society to become educated or to become engineer is money. What is the incentive in Vedic culture?

Prabhupāda: There is no need of money. The brāhmaṇa teaches everything free of charge. There is no question of money. Anyone can take education as a brāhmaṇa or a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. There is no... Vaiśya doesn't require any education. Kṣatriyas require little. Brāhmaṇa require. But that is free. Just find out a brāhmaṇa guru and he will give you free education. That's all. This is society. Now, as soon as... At the present moment, as soon as one wants to be educated, he requires money. But in the Vedic society there is no question of money. Education free.

Morning Walk -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Harikeśa: Nobody plays golf that early in the morning?

Prabhupāda: (break)...they have to manage, and the vaiśyas will produce, and brāhmaṇa will give the brain. Then the society will be peace... And at the present moment these śūdras, they are, by artificial votes, they are becoming the brain of the society. How it can be happy? The rascals, they are voted to the legislative assembly, and they are passing every day law which is never perfect. This is going on.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Stopgap measures.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They create problem, then they try to solve it.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Indian man (1): So they got to order everybody. That's what I believe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has to tax his brain. Kṛṣṇa has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra." And then the brāhmaṇas should give nice advice, teacher. The kṣatriyas should govern, and the vaiśyas should produce food and give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, then trade. And śūdras should help, worker. Here I see the Europeans, they are working as the kṣatriyas, government, and the Indians they are working as vaiśya, and the Africans, they are as śūdras. But where is brāhmaṇa? There is no brāhmaṇa; therefore it is not good. It will suffer. And if they accept, the government men accept our advice and do accordingly—we don't want government post, but we can give good advice how to govern—then everyone will be happy. That they are losing. There is no good head. They are simply thinking in their animal way, "Why the Indians should come here?" And the Indians are, "Why whites are neglecting us?" This is going on because there is no good engagement. So this is essential, that the society should be divided into four classes of men: the first-class men-lazy intelligent; second-class men-busy intelligent; and third-class men-lazy fool; and fourth-class men-busy fool.

Morning Walk -- October 25, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: (break) ...the government accept you as guide, then everything will be all right. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Tell them that "We are not going to take any salary. You simply take our advice, and govern." The modern legislative assembly, they should be composed of first-class brāhmaṇas, no salary. Then the government will be first-class. All of them are after money; therefore they are trying to capture the power. They have no idea, no desire for the well-being of the citizens. (break) ...this tree? Dates?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Called palmetto tree. Palmetto tree. Not fruit-bearing. Not fruit-bearing.

Prabhupāda: (Break)...beyond the sun.

Indian man: Beyond the sun. How would you explain about eclipse which we get?

Prabhupāda: That you ask some astronomer. I am not astronomer. But I understand from Vedic scripture that moon is beyond the sun.

Morning Walk -- October 28, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: They are better. It doesn't matter ladies or lord. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious is good. Striyo śūdras tathā vaiśyas te 'pi yānti param. It doesn't matter whether woman, śūdra or vaiśya. If he is... If she is or he is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Kṛṣṇa is open to everyone.

Lilāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We were thinking that unless the African people can see an example of a devotee, they won't continuously chant. They will chant while we are there and then they will forget.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you become an example yourself?

Lilāvatī: So to live amongst them, we were thinking, is very important.

Prabhupāda: You become an example by your behavior. Example is better than precept. (break)

Jñāna: ...to attain the necessary finances to support the programs here.

Prabhupāda: Beg. Sell book. That's all. Otherwise how you get finance?

Jñāna: One idea is to have a farm that we sell fruit or vegetables, like that.

Prabhupāda: If you open farm for financial help, then it will not be successful. You should take to farming for supporting yourself. That's all. Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial help from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently, rice, dahl, wheat, vegetables, milk, sugar. Bas You get everything. From these five, six items you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get money. Then it will be failure.

Morning Walk -- November 2, 1975, Nairobi:

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa's qualification is there—śama, dama, titikṣa, ārjavam and jñānam, vijñānam, āstikyam, brahma-karma... (BG 18.42). Everything is there, the symptoms. So you are doing business, the occupation of the vaiśyas or śūdras, and how you are claiming to become brāhmaṇa? The... Who is a brāhmaṇa, that symptoms is there in the śāstra. And not only the symptoms, Nārada Muni has said, "If these symptoms are found elsewhere, then he should be accepted according to the symptom." There is no question of birth. Yasya hi yaḻ lakṣanām proktaṁ varṇābhivyanjakaṁ yady anyātrāpi dṛṣyeta tat tenaiva viniriset. This is Nārada's vision. So it is the symptom. Just like a doctor, medical man. He diagnoses according to the symptom. He finds out the cause. So symptom is required, not that a man has become diseased or healthy by birth. No. By birth he is born. Then again, when he develops certain types of symptom, so one has to take him in that way. That is śāstra. We are accepting, or giving them sacred thread, brāhmaṇa, after seeing that they are actually acting as a brāhmaṇa, not superficially. Therefore we take some time to see whether he can develop brahminical symptom. That is our process, not that anyone comes, and we give him a sacred thread and he becomes immediately brāhmaṇa. We don't do this. First of all give him chance. Let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, follows the rules and regulations.

Morning Walk -- November 14, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Yes. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. (Hindi) Stri, śūdra or vaiśya, they are not advanced in knowledge, but Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). (Hindi) Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7). When he applies bhakti-yoga at the lotus feet of Vāsudeva, janayaty āśu vairāgyam. (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: Jñāna means only God is right, Kṛṣṇa is right, and all this is wrong.

Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means... Real jñāna means "We don't want this material world." That is jñāna. That is vairāgya because people are attached to this material world, and jñāna means completely detached. But he's suffering. On account of this attachment, he's taking repeatedly birth, birth, birth, death, birth, death, birth. So jñāna means to get release from this repetition of birth and death.

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Yaśomatīnandana: That's the Second Canto.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The modern education means to create dogs. The dog goes door to door and moves the tail, "Please give me if you have anything." So this educated person with application goes, and they say, "No vacancy. Get out." Therefore they are dogs. Educated means dogs. They are creating dogs. In Vedic culture no brāhmaṇa will accept any job. No kṣatriya will accept any job. No vaiśya will accept any... Only śūdras. Only śūdras.

Dr. Patel: Now they are keeping dogs in their kitchens.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Doggish mentality is there.

Dr. Patel: You see, the people are spending more than thirty, forty rupees on a dog every day. But they won't pay two rupees to a servant, domestic servant in their home.

Prabhupāda: They are keeping servants also. But educated dogs. After passing so many examinations, they are seeking after master. And without master they will starve. This is doggish mentality. A big technologist, unless he gets a good job, he is nothing but dog.

Morning Walk -- November 20, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (break) Now in this age there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. All śūdras.

Dr. Patel: They're very arrogant community. Very arrogant community.

Prabhupāda: Which?

Dr. Patel: The Kāśmīrī brāhmaṇas. They had no guts to go against the Muslims there, but they showed their arrogance. Fools they are.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...Caitanya Mahāprabhu was sixteen years old, He defeated one great Kāśmīrī paṇḍita, Keśava Kāśmīrī.

Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. I have read it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...Digvijayi. And when he came to Nabadwip, then he was defeated by a boy, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Nimāi Paṇḍita.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is śūdra. One has to become a brāhmaṇa, jñānam. But they have no knowledge; therefore they are śūdra. Brahmana means jñānam, vijñānam and āstikya: "Yes, there is God, and He is the original cause of everything." That is brahma-jña. Brahma jñānārthī brāhmaṇa. So where is brāhmaṇa? All śūdras. Kalau śūdra sambhava—especially in this age of Kali, everyone is śūdra, or less than śūdra. But still Kṛṣṇa gives the opportunity striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. How? Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32), he may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even the śūdras, they also.

Dr. Patel: Just like the essence of the Vedic knowledge has been given in the story form in the Bhāgavata. That is how these people could understand that. These...

Prabhupāda: It is not story. It is history...

Dr. Patel: No, no, some are stories and divya stories.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is history and philosophy. They are not stories. Where it is a story, it is mentioned it is like a story. Just like this bhāvārthābdhi.. That is mentioned there. There are many such statements which is not history, but, what is called? Instruction. But they take everything, "It is fabulous."

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- February 5, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: That is stated in Viṣṇu Purāṇa.

varṇāśramācāra-vatā

puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān

viṣṇur ārādhyate panthā

nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam

(CC Madhya 8.58)

That is said, varṇāśrama-dharma. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, unless one comes to the regulation of varṇāśrama-dharma, that is not human civilization. That is actually the fact. That is the same dog's society. That is going on. If there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified brāhmaṇa, who will give direction? There is no... If there is no kṣatriya, then who will give protection? If there is no vaiśya, then who will produce food? And if there is no śūdra, then who will work for general assistance? This is scientific.

Morning Walk -- February 9, 1976, Mayapura:

Hṛdayānanda: Even some of these women, they're not married but they are serving Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ (BG 9.32). This striya, generally they take it, "Even she is prostitute," striya. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim: "They can also go back to home, back to Godhead." Māṁ hi pārtha... If he takes Kṛṣṇa very seriously, then everything is possible. No impediment. Ahaituky apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa devotional service is so strong that it cannot be checked by any material impediments. The smārtas, they are thinking like that, "How these mlecchas and yavanas can become a brāhmaṇa?" But they do not know that by Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can jump over. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Māyā is very strong. Therefore there are gradual process. Varṇāśrama-dharma, karma-tyāga, this, that, so many things, pious activities, rituals. But this is the process, step by step, to cross over māyā. But Kṛṣṇa said, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa sincerely, immediately he crosses over. As Kṛṣṇa says in another place, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: (BG 18.66) "I'll do immediately." So māyā means pāpa. Unless one is sinful, he cannot be in māyā. So if one surrenders, then he, means, immediately crosses over māyā. So these smārta brāhmaṇas, they consider this thing. They are thinking, "How a person born in other families, they can become brāhmaṇa?"

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Marx's failure.

Acyutānanda: ...they cannot take the greed out of man. That was right on the head. That is the exact point, that they are suffering for the greed of the vaiśyas. So they kick out the vaiśyas, but then they are also more greedy.

Prabhupāda: They are greedy.

Acyutānanda: Plus they are low class.

Guru-kṛpā: Plus the worst thing is that they do not accept any form of religion whatsoever.

Acyutānanda: The, the Russian atheist Communism was because the Christian Church used to favor the vaiśyas, so they buried them together. In their hatred for the vaiśyas, the Church also was buried. Very blind, that.

Hari-śauri: Yes, that's always been one of the main criticisms against the Catholic Church. They have so much money and land.

Acyutānanda: He said, "Religion is the opiate of the people." So there was a cartoon that Marx came back in 1976, and they said, "No, opium is the religion of the people."

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Acyutānanda: "Now opium is the religion of the people because everyone is taking drugs. You say religion is the opiate. Now opium is the religion." They think there should be no private property. There was... They are discussing this in Indian Parliament now. They should abolish private property and abol... Women should not wear ornaments.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Acyutānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Where it is?

Acyutānanda: They're discussing in Parliament.

Morning Walk -- April 9, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: India has no, had no such ideas. They are borrowing ideas. India's idea is self-realization. Live very simple life—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas, they are living simple life, becoming very learned scholar, pure character, advanced in spiritual life—one class, ideal. And kṣatriyas, they are supposed to be the king. They distribute the land on nominal taxation, and the vaiśyas utilize the land for cultivation and cow-keeping, and the śūdras, they are engaged as weaver, blacksmith, goldsmith, mean other necessities of life. In this way the whole society is simplified, and the central point is how to become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by cooperation. This is India's civilization. There is no question of industry. Ugra-karma. It has been condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā as ugra-karma, laboring very hard for livelihood. This industry means engage the poor worker class to work very hard, and there is huge profit, and some directors of the capitalists, they take it. And they have one dozen motorcars, palatial building, no work, simply wine and woman, that's all. This is going on. And the others, they are seeing: "There is no classification, neither real brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya. So he is enjoying like that. He has got so many cars. He has got such a nice apartment. Why not me?" There is struggle. This is actual picture. Our Vedic advice is that make life very simple. You must have some means of livelihood. Keep your body and soul together. So according to quality, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), there must be division and then simple life. The real aim is tam abhyarcya, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Everyone is.... Brāhmaṇa is guiding, kṣatriya is ruling, and vaiśya is producing food, and śūdra, they have no brain; they are helping. In this way the society is very peaceful, and everyone is advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is India's civilization.

Morning Walk -- April 9, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: There is.... The brāhmaṇa... This is brāhmaṇa. This formula is there. Satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjava. So you have to see whether he is possessing this quality. Or train them. Have brahminical school, what I am willing to do. That is required absolutely. There must be a class of men, perfect brāhmaṇa. Otherwise society will be ruined. In the Western countries there is no brāhmaṇa. There may be some kṣatriyas and vaiśyas only, and śūdras. Brāhmaṇa there is none. So the same thing is here also now. Therefore the whole society is going down. There is no brāhmaṇa. What is this? This is brahminical culture. We are asking them not to be sinful, become devotee. This is brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, for the benefit of brahminical culture and cow protection. That is brahminical culture.

Morning Walk -- April 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: As you get miserable condition of life—you don't like it but it comes—similarly, happy condition will also come according to your destiny. Why you are wasting time for this? This is the decision of the śāstra. You cannot change your destiny. If you have to be, have to work like a coolie, even after becoming Ph.D. you'll have to work like a coolie. You cannot change it. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Jaya. This is.... Therefore formerly any man was satisfied in any position. They were not trying to develop economic condition, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. She is your daughter?

Morning Walk -- April 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...intelligence and kṣatriya's executive power and vaiśya's productive capacity and śūdra's labor. This combined together makes the whole society perfect.

Dr. Patel: How this social order can be generated in India?

Prabhupāda: (to passerby:) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Indian man: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: The kṣatriya's duty is that everyone is religious. It doesn't matter whether he follows Muslim or.... That is kṣatriya's duty, not that to discriminate, "The Hindu religion is better than the Muslim religion. Muslim..." That is not the way. If everyone is religious, it doesn't matter whether he is Hindu...

Dr. Patel: No religious Muslim would have ever done harm to Hindus.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- April 21, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: And "protection of cows," clearly.

Guru-kṛpā: Chapter Eighteen, Bhagavad-gītā, that the vaiśyas work...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya.

Prabhupāda: Ah, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. Immediately inform them.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I noticed that also. I thought it was strange, some time back. (break)

Prabhupāda: Hayagrīva edited. He thought, "cattle-raising." Not "cattle-raising," but the word.... There.... It is mistranslation. It is go-rakṣya, "giving protection to the cows." Especially mentioned, go-rakṣya, not otherwise. The animal-eaters may take other animals, but not cow. They can take the pig, goats, lambs, rabbits, so many others, if they at all want to eat meat, birds, these so many. There is no such mention that "Animals should be protected," no. "Cows should be protected." That is Kṛṣṇa's order. (break) They have decided to kill the cow. They have decided, "No brain. Eat." And our prayer is go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, "to do good to the brāhmaṇas and the cows." Actually it is revolutionary to the modern age. But how it is possible we say otherwise? That Bon Mahārāja came and said, "Right? Am I right?" (?) When Bon Mahārāja here.... When our students said something, "Oh, that you cannot say. That you cannot say." He said like that.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: But you are now claiming it is your land. The Africans, they are claiming. So much land, you can produce ten times food grains for as many population as there are. Ten times milk is required, food grain is required. That is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44).

Mr. Dixon: If we produced all of the foods that we could produce and we literally gave them away to other countries that need them, we'd produce a tremendous disincentive in those countries for their own production. I don't think it's as easy, the world...

Prabhupāda: Production.... You take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved.

Room Conversation -- April 23, 1976, Melbourne:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the case of Mahārāja Veṇa there was some recourse for the brāhmaṇas. What can we do?

Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇas were controlling the kṣatriyas. They were obeying the instruction of brāhmaṇas. That is social function. The first-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this?" Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. And vaiśya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the śūdras, they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. (break) The brāhmaṇas, they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the kṣatriyas. And the vaiśyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. And śūdra, they have no brain; they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first-class brāhmaṇa, and the kṣatriyas, if they abide by our instruction-our instruction means Kṛṣṇa's instruction—then everything will be nicely done. Sannyāsīs, they have begun to keep secretaries.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Kern: Did you then begin, after you finished the university, did you begin your writing?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I was family man. But even one is family man, he's trained up how to become God conscious. So that was the.... That is, practically every Indian, at least in our time, they were trained up how to become God conscious in the family life. Therefore there is classification—the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya. So these four classes, that first-class man, brāhmaṇa, the brain..., taking instruction from the first-class man. And then the third grade, the productive class. So you read there the third class.

Scheverman: So I can see that this is probably an important element that appeals to most of the young people that come to you is this training that can be received in this particular way. I can also see too that somewhere..., I'd like to move into this area of religious experience.

Prabhupāda: I shall request that.... There is no question of Eastern, Western. Now people are intermingling. Now I think that we shall have institution, especially in America, to train these first class, second class, third class, and the balance fourth class. Who cannot take up any training, they are fourth class. So how they should be trained up, that indication is there. It is not the question of Eastern and Western. You become peaceful...

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: That's all right; fighting is also required. When there is enemy, we are not discarding fighting. Fighting there will be. So long we are in the material world, there will be disagreement and there will be fight. You cannot stop it; that is not possible. So a class of men, they should be trained up fighting. A class of men, they should be trained up for teaching. A class of men for producing food. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). There are so many things. If you take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement cooperatively, it will be very, very good for the whole human society. And if your America takes up this call very seriously, others will follow.

Scheverman: Well I would be very interested, as the man who lives across the street right over here, pastor of St. Mark's parish, in talking with your local leadership and discussing whatever programs you are interested in working in this particular community. And I think perhaps...

Prabhupāda: No community—everyone is welcome.

Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal and Shivaram -- June 18, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: There is no distinction between man and woman. That is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpā-yonayaḥ striyo śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ (BG 9.32). The first is mentioned, striya. Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ. These classes are understood to be less intelligent-woman, śūdra, and the vaiśyas. But Kṛṣṇa says, "No, even for them it is open." Because in the spiritual platform there is no such distinction, man, woman, or black, white, or big or small. No. Everyone is spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ (BG 5.18), one who is actually learned, he is sama-darśinaḥ. He does not make any distinction. But so far our material body is concerned, there must be some distinction for keeping the society in order.

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1976, Toronto:

Indian man (3): My position you mean in relation to Kṛṣṇa or in relation to the world?

Prabhupāda: No, in relation to the world. In relationship with the world, therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). What is your quality? Then you are classified as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra. Then your duty. First of all you must know what you are, what is your position. Then there is duty.

Indian man (1): is it right that if you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all the duties are automatically taken care of?

Prabhupāda: All the duties, the summarization of duty: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. There are different duties, but the real duty is saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13), whether you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll have done all.... Ataḥ pumbhiḥ. Because there are different types of duties. But whatever you do, the success is whether by your duty you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful.

Prabhupada Inspects New BTG -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Reporter: "So if we don't choose our leaders by popular election, how will society be governed?"

Prabhupāda: "You require brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras. Just as when you want to construct a building you require engineers. You don't want sweepers. Isn't that so? What will the sweeper do? No. There must be engineers. So if you follow the division of varṇāśrama, only kṣatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly, the senators, only qualified brāhmaṇas. Now the butcher is in the legislative assembly. What does he know about making laws? He is a butcher. But by winning votes he becomes a senator. At the present moment, by the principle of vox populi, a butcher goes to the legislature. So everything depends on training. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society we are actually doing that. But in the case of politics they forget it. There cannot be just one class. That is foolishness. Because we have to engage different classes of men in different activities. If we do not know the art then we will fail, because unless there is a division of work there will be havoc. We have discussed all the responsibilities of the king in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The different classes in society should cooperate exactly as the different parts of the body do. Although each part is meant for a different purpose, they all work for one cause, to maintain the body properly."

Prabhupada Inspects New BTG -- June 24, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: "You cannot directly accept the Supreme Being. You must accept the servants of the Supreme Being, the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas, devotees of the Lord, as your guides. The government men are the kṣatriyas, the second class. The kṣatriyas should take advice from the brāhmaṇas or Vaiṣṇavas and make laws accordingly. The vaiśyas should carry out the kṣatriyas' orders in practice, and the śūdras should work under these three orders, then society will be perfect." The end of the article.

Prabhupāda: You like this?

Kīrtanānanda: Very nice.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: Right to the point.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They can make a big plane, but they can't make a mosquito. It's so thought-provoking. Here's that article by Dharmādhyakṣa that you liked.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That article about, he wrote from Vancouver.

Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "In the varṇāśrama institution the sannyāsī, or the person in the renounced order of life, is considered to be the head or the spiritual master of all the social statuses and orders. A brāhmaṇa is considered to be the spiritual master of the three other sections of society, namely the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. But a sannyāsī, who is on the top of the institution, is considered to be the spiritual master of the brāhmaṇas also. For a sannyāsī the first qualification should be fearlessness. Because a sannyāsī has to be alone without any support or guarantee of support, he has simply to depend on the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he thinks 'After leaving my connections, who will protect me?' he should not accept the renounced order of life. One must be fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect as Paramātmā, is always within, and He is seeing everything, and that He always knows what one intends to do. One must have this firm conviction that Kṛṣṇa as Paramātmā will take care of a soul surrendered unto Him. 'I shall never be alone,' one should think..."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Don't divert your attention.

Morning Walk -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is considered, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when a brāhmaṇa is engaged in the activities of plowing and cultivating, that he has become a vaiśya?

Prabhupāda: No. If there is nobody to help, he can do.

Hari-śauri: As long as he keeps up his brahminical standards.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. This is our car?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda? It says in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, jaya jaya nityānanda, nityānanda-rāma, yāṅhāra kṛpāte pāinu vṛndāvana-dhāma. That means he has somehow achieved the shelter of Lord Nityānanda because He sent him to Vṛndāvana. Is this also true for the residents here in New Vrindaban? They have achieved the shelter of Lord Nityānanda?

Devotees: Jaya. (end)

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

So that is Vedic civilization. But these asses, they do not see that "These men are working like us, like dogs and asses. So they are escaping." Yes, escaping your fruitless endeavor. So the Vedic civilization was meant for self-realization. Vedic civilization begins from the varṇāśrama system. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). How to realize Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the system is varṇāśrama. In another place it is said, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer (SB 1.5.17). The varṇāśrama means there is division: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But the ultimate goal is viṣṇur ārādhyate. The Supreme Lord should be worshiped. That is the idea. So if Viṣṇu ārādhana is available immediately, then you can give up all other occupational duty as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, as a brahmacārī, everything. Take to it, immediately, to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is so important. But that they do not know. Therefore there is no religion. A simply dog's race. The dog is running on four legs and you are running on four wheels. That's all. And they think the four-wheel race is advancement of civilization. But the Vedic civilization is different. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ (SB 1.5.18). Then one can say that "Then we shall do nothing?" Yes, practically it is said, "Do nothing."

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Everyone, for all people. There must be on the head the intelligent class of men who will give advice. Then next class, the... That is all given in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But when you become Kṛṣṇa conscious you can give up all these regulative principles directly. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). A brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, or this dharma, that dharma, Hindu dharma, Mussulman dharma. If you have everything, simply... Because the ultimate aim of dharma is to come to Kṛṣṇa. "You directly come to Me; then everything is all right."

Devotee: So many other people, they concoct their own system and they say "This is the way to go to God."

Prabhupāda: Then let them suffer. What can be done? What can be done? If you don't take the laws of the state, you manufacture your own laws, then you'll suffer. If the state says, "Keep to the right," and if make your own law, "No, keep to the left," then you'll suffer. It's a fact.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: "If you follow these principles, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on." His father may be meat-eater or gambler or drunkard, but he is agreeing, "All right, come on, this come. You are welcome." Then it will be all right. You cannot abolish the truthful class of men. There are... You'll find truthful men everywhere. So you have to pick up. So Kṛṣṇa says that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā, guṇa-karma... You pick up the quality of men and put them in the brahminical class, and then next, kṣatriya class, then vaiśya class, then śūdra class. But you cannot abolish that system. That is a false attempt. Because more or less, there will be a class of men who are truthful. You cannot abolish. More or less, there will be a class of men who are sinful. So as soon as you want to pick up from a family, then it is mistake, miscalculated. That caste system should be abolished. But real classification... Not caste. It is classification. Intelligent class of men, or truthful class of men, the fighter class of men, that will continue all over the world. You cannot abolish it. Even if you abolish caste system in India, you cannot abolish the class of truthful men. That is not possible. In spite of so much degradation, a class of men will remain truthful, a class of men will remain sinful. More or less. You cannot abolish this. So this is false attempt. And this caste system is also false. It is not based on the right description of caste system.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Dhṛṣṭadyumna:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth, women, vaiśyas, as well as śūdras, can approach the supreme destination."

Prabhupāda: Yes. The condition is that "those who take shelter unto Me." Now, Mahatma Gandhi manufactured the harijana, but where there is the teaching that "You take shelter of Kṛṣṇa?" So how this harijana will be effective? The condition is there, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32).

Prabhupāda: Just like Rsabhādeva orders that this human life is meant for tapasya. Therefore in our Vedic civilization we find so many rules and regulations. This is tapasya. From the very beginning of life, brahmacārī, to go to the spiritual master's place and act like menial servant. Nicavat. It is said. If the spiritual master says that "You go and pick up some wood from the forest," and one may be a king's son, but he cannot deny it, the spiritual master's order, "You must go." As Kṛṣṇa, He was ordered to go and pick up some dry wood from the forest. So He had to go. Although He was, His father was Nanda Mahārāja, a village vaiśya king, and Kṛṣṇa was Personality of Godhead, but He could not deny. He had to go. Nicavat. Just like menial servant. That is called brahmacārī. This is tapasya. So tapasya is so essential that one has to do it. There is no question of alternative. Then brahmacārī, then.... If he marries, then gṛhastha. That is also tapasya. He cannot have sex life whenever he likes. No. The śāstra says, "You must have sex life like this: once in a month and only for begetting children." So that is also tapasya. They do not follow, people do not follow any tapasya at the present moment. But human life is meant for tapasya, regulative principles. Even in ordinary life.... Just like you are driving your car, you are going to some urgent business, and you saw the red light.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, fifteen. "Hinduism has been defined as a way of life."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is the way. That, I have already described it. It is not a sectarianism like Muslimism, Christianism or "Thisism..." Hinduism also now one of them. Actually, it is a way of life, varṇāśrama-dharma, how to become elevated to the spiritual platform. So that begins by the varṇāśrama-dharma, to select persons according to his capacity to different varṇas. Some of them selected, trained as brāhmaṇas. Some of them trained as kṣatriya, some of them as vaiśya, some of them as, remain... Those who cannot take any training, they are śūdras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). That we have lost. The so-called Hinduism they have lost. And because they did not follow real varṇāśrama-dharma, therefore India, so many renegades, Muslim became... Once they become Muslim, there was no reformation. But according to Vedic principle, even one is fallen, he can be raised to the highest standard. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32).

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hinduism has been defined as a way of life. In...

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the way of life, that by reformatory process recommended in the śāstras one should be elevated to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdra. Śudra means one who cannot take any reformation. But one who can take up the reformation, he can be situated as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. This is not by birth, but by education, by training. That is recommended for the all human society. Not for the Hindus or... Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says pāpa-yoni? Pāpa-yoni. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. They are also taken as pāpa-yoni. And what to speak of the śūdras and caṇḍālas? They must be pāpa-yoni. Only the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are taken as highly elevated. But nowadays, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age you cannot distinguish who is brāhmaṇa, who is kṣatriya, who is a vaiśya, who is a śūdra. It is accepted that everyone is a śūdra because there is no reformation.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class, and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and caṇḍāla. Caṇḍālas, they will remain, and they are eating. Let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the caṇḍāla class, they eat.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even cows, cow flesh.

Prabhupāda: Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Christian.

Prabhupāda: Christians.

Hari-śauri: Even they're exporting beef from India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes.

Evening Darsana -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: We should not remain a mūḍha; we should be intelligent to understand Kṛṣṇa. And that is possible only through bhakti. Kṛṣṇa specifically mentions, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). He never says, "By jñāna, yoga, karma, one can understand Me." No. Bhakti. Bhakto si, "You will understand, Arjuna, because you are My bhakta." That is first qualification to understand Kṛṣṇa. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34). A bhakta is submissive. And nondevotees, they are not submissive. They are so proud that they say "I am Bhagavān, I am God." So that attitude will not help to understand. (Prabhupāda converses in Hindi with an Indian lady about how one does not have to renounce family life to understand Kṛṣṇa.) He says paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). He understands perfectly. There is no question of gṛhastha or sannyāsī. It is a question of understanding. And Arjuna is gṛhastha, politician, fighter, and still he is selected to understand Bhagavad-gītā. So gṛhastha. (Hindi) ...in gṛhastha life or sannyāsī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that, kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya. (Hindi) I shall speak in English so that others.... Kibā vipra, whether one is a brāhmaṇa, kibā śūdra, or whether he is a śūdra, nyāsī kene naya, or whether he is a sannyāsī. That means whether he is a gṛhastha or brāhmaṇa, or.... There are eight varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, whatever he may be, out of these eight categories.

Evening Darsana -- July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: That is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

(SB 1.2.13)

Everyone is engaged in his occupational duties. Everyone is engaged. Generally according to Vedic civilization, the society is divided into eight divisions. Varṇāśrama-dharma it is called-four varṇas and four āśramas. Materially, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And spiritually, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. These eight divisions. So according to these eight divisions, everyone has an occupational duty. So what is the duty and how the duty is perfected? That is hari-toṣaṇam, to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That people do not know. Especially at the present moment, they do not know who is Hari and they do not know how to please Him. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that they do not care to know who is God and how to satisfy Him. That is the defect. The life is meant for, human life, for satisfying God.

Evening Darsana -- July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Prabhupāda: This is karma. Karma means according to that division, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Karma means activity. There must be some prescribed activity. Just like you are professor, you have got your prescribed activities. He's the minister of ambassador's, he has got prescribed activities. So everyone has got prescribed activities in whatever position he is, but what is the standard of success, that I have done my duties, prescribed duties properly? What is that standard? The standard is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam: (SB 1.2.13) whether you have satisfied the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your duty. Then it is success.

Prabhupāda: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training. Some section of the people, they should be very intellectuals, brain, just like to maintain this body we require first of all the brain. If the brain is not order, then other parts, they may be there, but they are also useless. So similarly, in the society, some intellectuals should be maintained. They are called brāhmaṇas, and some of the brāhmaṇas, they are sannyāsīs. They are simply meant for giving good instruction. They should personally become very good and intellectual, and they should give instruction to other people what is the value of life, how to live. This is one section. They should be free from the anxiety of maintaining themselves. The society should treat them as children and give them all necessities, bare necessities, not they are meant for living very luxuriously. No. Simple living. Then the next class, kṣatriyas, the politicians, administrators, they are also required to give protection to the people from injury. Kṣatriya, kṣat means injury, and trāyate, "one who saves people from injury." It is kṣatriya's duty. So kṣatriya should protect all the living entities, including the animals. They are also subjects. So the first, intellectual brāhmaṇas, then kṣatriya. Then vaiśyas, their business is to produce food. Food production you can do by agriculture, kṛṣi, and by giving protection to the cows.

Prabhupāda: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are śūdras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as kṣatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not kṣatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post. Just like you did not like your President, Mr. Nixon. So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varṇa and āśrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma, by quality. In India, the varṇāśrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life, "There is no need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of kṣatriya, simply śūdras." Everywhere this is the position, the śūdra population, kalau śūdra sambhavaḥ. In this age everyone is a śūdra. So it doesn't matter, everyone is born śūdra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brāhmaṇa, how to become kṣatriya, how to become vaiśya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That verse, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32).

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa says that even women, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. There is no such thing. Anyone who is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he or she will go back to home, back to Godhead. There is no such discrimination. Ordinarily it is supposed that woman is less intelligent than the man. That's a fact. But that is in bodily understanding. But in the spiritual platform, either woman or man or cat or dog or brāhmaṇa or... Everyone is spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he sees everyone on the same level of spiritual platform.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it's a fact. If you work as a brāhmaṇa, if you are thinking yourself as a brāhmaṇa, then you act as brāhmaṇa. You cannot act as a śūdra. As a brāhmaṇa you cannot accept anyone's service, then you become śūdra. You deviate from your own position. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they'll never accept anyone's service, only the śūdra. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). When you live at the mercy of others, this is called dog's business. Just like a dog lives at the mercy of the master. So it is strictly prohibited for the brāhmaṇas. Even in very difficult position, you can act as a kṣatriya, you can act as a vaiśya, but never accept the position of a dog, a śūdra. This is the injunction. Sve sve karmaṇi, you stick to your own business. If you claim as a brāhmaṇa, then you must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then you'll become successful. You cannot remain a brāhmaṇa and accept the business of a dog, that is not sve sve karmaṇi. So everything, what is stated there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that is perfect. People at the present moment, they are living at the mercy of others. That is dog's business. Therefore (in) the śāstra it is said kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is a śūdra. There is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. That is generally accepted. Because at the present moment education means to get some service. What is the value of that education? If you become dependent on others, then what is the value of this education? Therefore kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Everyone is a śūdra. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement says striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ: (BG 9.32) never mind, even if you are śūdra, take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll become perfect. Either you become woman or vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter, or any other pāpa-yoni, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, te 'pi yānti parām (BG 9.32). So this is the most liberal movement, that it doesn't matter what you are, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you become perfect. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He's on the Brahman platform, above all these different modes of material nature. These brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, these are differences on the material platform. But when you come to the spiritual platform, there is no such difference. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). So we are trying to bring everyone to that spiritual platform. Therefore they cannot understand.

Interview with Newsweek -- July 14, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā is there, the four divisions of human society, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So each one's duty is prescribed. Brāhmaṇa's duty, kṣatriya's duty, vaiśya's duty, śūdra's duty, brahmacārī's duty, everything is there.

Guest (3): But then you said before that if I think I'm brahmacārī, then I should be a brahmacārī. If I become a śūdra, I act as a śūdra.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you act as a brahmacārī, do your brahmacārī work, you'll be successful.

Guest (3): But how do I know that I am thinking properly?

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say it is mentioned in the śāstra, brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). If you want to be a lawyer, you must know the law. Without knowing the law, how you become a lawyer? Without knowing the engineering art, how you become engineer? So either you become a brahmacārī, gṛhastha or vānaprastha, sannyāsī, or anything, you must know what you are meant for. Without knowing, how you can become brahmacārī?

Guest (3): I must know what I am meant for.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just like... These are all discussed in the Bhagavad-gītā, what kind of social arrangement should be. That... It is called varṇāśrama-dharma. A brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha—these are different groups, and if they are favorably trained up then spiritual understanding becomes very easy.

Interviewer: Can you tell me a little bit about the future direction of the movement, how you plan to expand.

Prabhupāda: That is... That is going on already. Just like these boys, they did not know about Kṛṣṇa some years ago, but they are taking seriously. The same process, if it is continued, then people will take.

Rāmeśvara: In other words, Prabhupāda sees that if we just continue the programs that he has introduced, just like we have already become members, similarly, many others will continue to become members in the future if we just continue the same programs which made us members, namely the chanting of the mantra, distributing of the books, distribution of the...

Prabhupāda: And following the regulative principles.

Interview with Religious Editor Of the Associated Press -- July 16, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Real Vedic principle is called varṇāśrama. Observing the principle of four varṇas. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. It is a very long science. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This is called varṇa. And brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is called āśrama. So the Vedic civilization is called varṇāśrama-dharma, not Hindu dharma. This is later contribution of the so-called scholars.

Interviewer: Well ah, I thank you very much for your time, your Grace, and I'm glad I finally got acquainted with you. I missed you in Brooklyn.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Interviewer: I missed you in Brooklyn, I came over there and you were in the backyard, I think you were asleep or having a backrub or something. So I didn't get to see you.

Prabhupāda: Yes, in the daytime I am...

Interviewer: It was good to catch you this time and I hope to see you again.

Prabhupāda: So kindly put the matter properly because people misunderstand on account of their ignorance they misunderstand our, movement.

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: And you are journalist, you are not expected to become a motor mechanic or a medical man. But your function is also required in the society. Similarly, the Vedic society was divided into different sections. That is called varṇāśrama-four varṇas, four āśramas. That is very scientific. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this system of division of society. It is perfect society. Therefore we are trying to introduce the varṇāśrama system, although it is very difficult nowadays. But if one becomes a devotee, which is above varṇāśrama-dharma, then the purpose is solved. In this age, although varṇāśrama-dharma is very scientific, and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement includes this, but we are mostly trying to get to the topmost part of varṇāśrama, sannyāsa, or above that. That means Vaiṣṇava. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). One can immediately transcend the jurisdiction of three modes of material nature if he engages himself in the devotional service of the Lord.

Interview with Trans-India Magazine -- July 17, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: So actually this varṇāśrama system is meant for bringing the man in the lower status of life to the higher status of life. It doesn't matter one is born in a low-grade family. That is also said by Kṛṣṇa: māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yoni, lower grade. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ (BG 9.32). In the human society, woman, the vaiśya and the śūdra, they are considered in the lower status, not very intelligent. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. They can also become... So in the Western countries, according to Vedic calculation, they are mlecchas, yavanas, low grade. But Kṛṣṇa says ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, "He can also be elevated, to that extent as he can go back to home, back to Godhead." So this movement is directly giving the opportunity of Kṛṣṇa's service so that they can become immediately bona fide to the position in the highest grade of life, Vaiṣṇava, so that he can go back to home, back to Godhead.

Morning Walk -- July 18, 1976, New York:

Prabhupāda: Demon family. Viṣṇu-dveṣī(?). Still, they are kṣatriyas. Just like the Europeans and Americans, they were kṣatriyas, now they have become demons. Actually they are kṣatriyas. I have studied. And the Jews are vaiśyas. (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: The Jews are vaiśyas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why they call them the American Marwaris.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. They know how to do business and earn money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A lot of your disciples are Jewish.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they know how to make money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They take up your idea of book distribution and they make all the money from it. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Everything can be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vacaḥ. (break)

Rāmeśvara: Sky is very clear.

Prabhupāda: Yes, good morning. When the sky is clear the Englishmen call "good morning." This is the origin of "good morning." Because unfortunately, in their country the sky is never clear. If by chance some day it is clear, they say "Oh, it is a good morning." That is the origin of that. One Englishman told me.

Room Conversation -- July 27, 1976, London:

Jayatīrtha: He had Kumar Shankar, the brother of Ravi Shankar, cooking for him. So this man is a demon; therefore he is becoming sick.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are all drunkards, all third-class men, fourth-class men, low-class men. In India, this naṭas, they are third class, fourth class. Naṭas means the artist class, singer, dancers. They are meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. It was never taken by the.... They are called, and they will expertly sing, dance, in some festival. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they were not doing. Still in India there is a class, very expert in dancing, singing, low class. Their hereditary business is like that.

Room Conversation -- August 2, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: Dravidian culture. Dravida. They are non-Āryans. Just like these Africans, they are not Āryans. Now they are mixing up with Europeans and Americans. In India, it was, one from the higher section, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they will be fair complexion. Śūdras, black. So if a brāhmaṇa becomes black, then he's not accepted as brāhmaṇa. Kāla bahu (?). And if a śūdra becomes fair, then he's to be know that he's not pure śūdra. Although we do not take very, but, this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, by birth, but still, we have seen, those who are coming purely from high caste family, their behavior and śūdras behavior is different. The family culture. And the spiritual culture lost, still, the family culture keeps them separate.

Morning Walk -- August 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Because we have no, that cātur-varṇa system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). You have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, now you have to suffer. You do not train brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So anyone who is in power, he is good. That is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means anyone gets vote, he's in power. They can misuse the power. There is no kṣatriya.

Dr. Patel: I think that is a wrong system (much airplane noise-indistinct) this open Democracy is not a (indistinct) by consensus...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Now, either democracy or monarchy, the population is śūdra. So either you make it democracy or any "crazy," śūdra will be on the power. So they can...

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So nature's law is there, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). We are not independent. We are dependent under the laws of material nature. So we should properly utilize this human form of life, and government or king means to guide the citizens how to make progress of life. That is the duty of the government. They should be given all chances to make progress. Formerly, all the kings were responsible for the progress of the citizens, progress of life. The same principle should be followed. That is the statement of the śāstra. The brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. To maintain the body, just like we require the head, the arms, the belly, and the legs, similarly, we must maintain the brain of the society, the brāhmaṇa; and the arms of the society, kṣatriyas; and the belly of the society, the vaiśyas; and the legs of the society, the śūdra. Everything is required. Not that simply brain is required and leg is not required. No, everything is required under proper guidance for the total benefit of the society. So direction is there. That is śāstra. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya... If we do not care for the śāstra, whimsically manufacture our own ways of life, na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti, it will never be successful. Na sukham. And there will be no happiness. Na parāṁ gatim. Therefore the whole process is yajñārthāt karmaṇa. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Yajña means the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. Yajña means yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. After performing yajña, if we enjoy life, then there is no sinful reaction.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: The varṇāśrama-dharma, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, this is plan just to teach the whole society how to perform yajña. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. Therefore this is the beginning of human civilization. Varṇāśrama. How to return back. Just like Bali Mahārāja. Bali Mahārāja achieved, obtained, throughout the universe all the property, and he again returned to Vāmana. That was his success of life. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to teach people how one should voluntarily return the property of the Lord to the Lord. That is called yajña. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). So people actually suffering. Not only... This material life means suffering. We may say that we are very happy, but that is not the fact. Tri-tāpa, three kinds of miserable condition of life are there always, adhyātmika, adhibhautika, adhidaivika. But we are accustomed to suffering, and we say suffering is happiness. That is called māyā. Actually, material life is... This body, as soon as we get this body, it means suffering.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Indian (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swamiji...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head—brāhmaṇa; the arms—kṣatriya; the belly—vaiśya; and the leg—śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brāhmaṇa, a department of kṣatriya—that education must be given. But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the śāstra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job, therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ, in this age almost everyone is śūdra. So if śūdras are there only, if there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, that society will not prosper very much. If we accept the injunction of the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma (BG 16.23). So this brāhmaṇa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth. It is by qualification. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa. One must acquire the quality of brāhmaṇa and he must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then he is brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Even in śūdra family, if one is born śūdra, but he has attained the quality of a brāhmaṇa, he must be accepted as brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra injunction.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: If the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in a person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly, if the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in śūdra or the śūdra quality found in brāhmaṇa, I mean to say birth, by caste, as it is going on now, so Nārada Muni has said... This is the statement of Nārada Muni, the greatest authority. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). So birth is not the final thing. If one is born in a brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family, he has got the facility to become quickly a brāhmaṇa; but if he has no quality, if he does not practice, then he is not to be accepted as brāhmaṇa. You may be a son of a high-court judge, but unless you have got the quality of high-court judge, it is not that because you are born of high-court judge you become a high-court judge. That is not, that is not the quality. The quality is... So therefore I say that there must be educational institution for training brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya especially. And vaiśyas, they do not require any academical area. Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (Bg 18.44). They can learn simply by associating with another vaiśya. But brāhmaṇa, especially require education, Vedic literature. Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ. Kṣatriya also requires education. Others, they may not require education. Practical training. These things should be introduced. Then human society will be perfect. Not by birth, but by quality, by education, by training. But that is possible.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Interviewer: But we can eat goat's meat, and other animal's meat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the thing is that cow is especially recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). That you must produce enough food grains by agriculture and give protection to the cows. That means if you have got enough food grains to eat and if you have got enough milk to get fatty substance, then your whole economic question is solved. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you get sufficient food there is no question of agitation. Everyone is satisfied. Animal and man. So you must produce. That is recommendation in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Prabhupāda: So that is your interpretation. But we are trying to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is our mission. That you produce food grains sufficiently and give protection to the cows so that food grains and milk will give you all benefits of economic question. You'll be satisfied. That's all. Not only that, I have practically seen that by God's arrangement there are so much land on this planet that you can produce ten times food stuff of the whole population. But they are not doing that. They are utilizing land... Just like in Africa I have seen, enough land is there, but what they are doing? They are keeping some cows and bulls, and when they are grown up... They are not given anything to eat. There is enough grass. And as soon as they are fatty, they are taken to the slaughterhouse. Not for their own eating, but exporting. This business is going on. Similar business is going on in Australia and New Zealand. Unnecessarily they are killing these cows, and this shortage of foodstuff and shortage of milk, this is not good arrangement. The recommended process in the Bhagavad-gītā, that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you have sufficient foodstuff, then everyone is satisfied. And it is the duty of the vaiśya class, kṛṣi go-rakṣya vāṇijyam (BG 18.44); go-rakṣya vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. The, according to Bhagavad-gītā, this is the business of the vaiśyas. The brāhmaṇas, they should be very much highly educated, enligthened in spiritual knowledge. The kṣatriyas, they should govern, give protection. The vaiśyas, they should produce enough food. And those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya, śūdras, they can help. That's all. This is their.... Then everyone will be satisfied. The society will go on. Just like in your body you require brain, the head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. Similarly, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is essential. If you have simply brain and no leg then it is also useless. There must be brain and leg also. There must be brāhmaṇa, there must be śūdra, there must be.... Then the social arrangement is perfect.

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: She is expert in typing. Amongst the women, she is expert typist. She is expert in so many things. Only defect is that she is woman. But Kṛṣṇa says, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyaḥ: "Never mind woman. If she is devotee, she also comes to Me." Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā, "no one barred." Especially naming, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśya te 'pi yānti parām. Everyone is to be.... Kṛṣṇa is so kind. There is no restriction. Everyone is open to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). This is open to all living entities. There is no restriction. And so long this body is there, material, there is distinction between this and that. Otherwise, when you come to the platform of spiritual understanding, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), then there is no restriction. Higher, lower, this, that, so many. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). So any newspaper propaganda against us? No. One complaint is standing, that with our life members and others, subscriber, they always complain they are not getting paper, they are not getting book. That is the general complaint.

Room Conversation About Gurukula -- November 5, 1976, Vrndavana:

Jagadīśa: Hyderabad?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high class brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, not for the vaiśyas and śūdras. (man laughs in background) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there... That I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart.

Pradyumna: Race horse before the cart.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Pradyumna: Race horse before the...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will not be nice.

Bhagatji: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi.

Indian man: If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts?

Prabhupāda: No, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth.

Room Conversation About Gurukula -- November 5, 1976, Vrndavana:

Indian man: No, vaiśya is special work.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas, śūdras. (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According... One Englishman used to say, "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra." (laughs) Śūdra... Actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras. You know that?

Bhagatji: In Bengal kāyasthas is the...

Prabhupāda: No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P.

Bhagatji: In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras.

Prabhupāda: And originally they are śūdras. The history of Bengali kāyasthas... They went with the brāhmaṇas as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is... (Bengali saying and Hindi explanation) Actually it is... If some low class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha.

Room Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: This is kṣatriya. Now, who is kṣatriya? A fourth-class man, he never seen battlefield and by vote he becomes president. And here kṣatriya means yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. If there is fight he must come forward first of all. He is in his palace, and he's engaging common men, "Go and fight." When there was Battle of Kurukṣetra Arjuna and Duryodhana, they came first. Because the battle was decided as soon as the leader is dead. No more fight. So they used to come first. This is kṣatriya. Where is that kṣatriya? And they are becoming politicians simply by votes, all third-class, fourth-class men. What he'll do? Everyone is trying to keep his position by hook and crook. How he'll think of the people? How they will be happy? He is thinking of his own happiness. And these are politicians. There is no kṣatriya. There is no brāhmaṇa. And there is no vaiśya. What is the vaiśya?

Room Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44).

Prabhupāda: Hm. A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved. And these rascals, they are not giving protection to the cows, but they are killing cows. So there is no third-class men even. All fourth-class. So how you can be happy under the control of fourth-class men? There is no first-class men, no second-class men, even no third-class. That means all fourth-class, fifth-class. That's all. This is the human society, combination of fourth, fifth, tenth-class men. Tenth-class. The fourth-class... There are fourth-class men and more than that, fifth-class men, uncivilized. Aborigines, they are fifth class. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). There are so many. In the human civilized... Civilization means there must be first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Then rest all fifth-class, up to tenth-class.

Room Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Expecting fifty thousand. The real (indistinct).

Devotee: That's what we're trying to bring together here in this city. (indistinct-conversation going on) and then all around, the different communities, vaiśya community, the merchant community (indistinct), their own communities.

Dr. Kneupper: I see.

Hari-śauri: According to the Vedic system (indistinct—more than one person speaking)

Jagadīśa: Read?

Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes.

Morning Walk -- December 5, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Te hitam. So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals-eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, utmost, śūdra, like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping, and sex, and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong then, "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa, then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ... What is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam. If you want to be a vaiśya, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And if you want to remain a śūdra, paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself, either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam. Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma. That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time, a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. So make that. Don't waste your time. That's all right. And she is child.

Preparation for Gita Pratisthana -- December 9, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: How they can know? There is no understanding. Mūḍha. (pause) To solve all these problems, therefore, there must be a class of men, brāhmaṇas. Not a class, a section of people must become brāhmaṇas. And all other sections should consult them and live as kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, śūdras. Then? It is finished now? No.

Jagadīśa: Well, we've solved all the problems.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jagadīśa: We've solved all the problems. Now we want to convince this Vinoda Bhave to support us?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So can you see what is the position, my quarters?

Hari-śauri: Well, Mūrti said your side is fit for moving into. But if they have... See, Bhogilal Patel is not here yet, so I thought if we wait at least till tomorrow, if you want, then that will give them the chance to get a few more doors on, and then, if Bhogilal comes tomorrow, then we can move in the morning.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Press Conference -- December 16, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Eighteenth. Not only him, but there are so many swamis. They are also going but not a single Kṛṣṇa devotee they could turn. That's a fact. For the last two hundred years, that's a fact. You cannot deny the fact. But within ten years we have got so many centers and so many. That is little surprising.

Guest (8): You'll be talking about the cow protection also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Whatever Kṛṣṇa has said. Kṛṣṇa says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). He is giving you. That is our duty. I told these boys, "The cows, whether they give milk or not milk, it doesn't matter. They should be given protection."

Guest (8): They should be given?

Prabhupāda: Given protection. If Kṛṣṇa says, go-rakṣya... He doesn't say only give protection to the milk cow.

Guest (8): Once they expire, how do you propose to expose of the body?

Prabhupāda: Then they can eat, those who are eating cows. Just like in our country the cāmāras, they take away and take the skin for preparing shoes and eat the flesh and use the bone. So we request those who are flesh eaters, that "Wait up to the natural death. Why you are killing?"

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 4, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Śiṣyān ca putrān ca. There is no difference. But not because he is śiṣya of such person or putra of such person. Not like that. Either śiṣya or putra.

Dr. Patel: The guru-śiṣya is as good as putra. More than a putra. To a real guru the śiṣya is more than a putra.

Prabhupāda: For guru there is no difference. But the real thing is qualification. That gotra, our gotra, that is applicable to the śiṣya and to the putra.

Dr. Patel: That is in śiṣya-paramparā they have got that... Gautama.

Prabhupāda: Gotra... Just like gotra, Kasya-gotra.(?) This gotra means this family, either śiṣya or putra. Just like Gautama-gotra, there are many brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas. So those who are brāhmaṇas, it means putras and those who are kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they are śiṣyas. But the gotra is the same. So we shall go down. (end)

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Then you are success. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). This is success. Kṛṣṇa says, "Do this."

annād bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajñād bhavati parjanyo

yajñaḥ karma-sambudbhavaḥ

(BG 3.14)

Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). We have the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. So we have to do this. It is not fashion. It is the fact, sir. And those who want to become immediately paramahaṁsa... Paramahaṁsa does not mean some bogus men. Just like that paramahaṁsa advised our Bhagatji, "Anyone going out of Vṛndāvana..." He did not marry for this purpose. You know that letter? Then he stopped. Paramahaṁsa has gone away. And paramahaṁsa is looking after woman, a very beautiful woman.

Morning Walk -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa gives freedom. Striyo śūdras tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parām. "Never mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa (BG 9.32). "Anyone. Come on. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Take prasāda." This is my propaganda.

Dr. Patel: My mind is haunted by those (indistinct). There will be somebody...

Prabhupāda: I know that I sincere to Kṛṣṇa, He'll do the rest.

Dr. Patel: That is right. You have extreme faith.

Prabhupāda: Faith means extreme faith. Not reserved. Faith does not mean any reservation. What is that? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. This is... Ananya-bhāk. No reservation. That is... Sādhur eva. He is sādhu. Whatever he does, it doesn't matter. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He sādhu. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). These are the words. Require staunch faithful devotion. Then you are perfect. Then doesn't matter what you are, what you are doing. Whether the real point is fixed up. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk.

Conversation and Instruction On New Movie -- January 13, 1977, Allahabad:

Prabhupāda: You cannot expect everyone to be brahminical qualification. We are neither brāhmaṇa nor... We do not belong to any sect, but Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, we can do anything. That, because we are doing some business, we are not vaiśyas. Just like Nanda Mahārāja was agriculturist. So that does not mean he was a Vaiṣṇava. But professionally, externally, he looked like a vaiśya.

Rāmeśvara: I see that in Los Angeles. Not everyone can follow every program. So I'm always telling them, to encourage them, that even something is better than nothing. Blind uncle is better than no uncle. So do whatever you can.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they should be encouraged. They must give some service to the institution. By earning money, that is hard-earned money. (man chanting on loudspeaker in background) So why our men are not chanting? This is...

Rāmeśvara: They're just starting.

Prabhupāda: He's also stressing on chanting, this man, Punjabi. He is stressing that "Mind is restless. Chant. The mind will be controlled."

Evening Darsana -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Guest (2): Exactly. We Indian people, we know what is religion, not politics.

Prabhupāda: No. Politics is there. Politics means formerly the brāhmaṇas were the guide, teacher of the society, guide of the society. Brahminical culture. The brāhmaṇas were not interested in politics. They would give advice to the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas would administer. Brāhmaṇas were not interested to take politics, from time immemorial, even during the time of Mahārāja Pṛthu. Not that the kṣatriyas were irresponsible, no. They were taking guidance from the learned brāhmaṇas, saintly persons, and they were ruling over. Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira was doing that. Mahārāja Parīkṣit was doing that. Lord Rāmacandra also.

Guest (2): During the present day, sir, to whom we will treat as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya and śūdra?

Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. According to the symptom.

Guest (1): Cātur-varnyam mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Prabhupāda: So actual...

Mr. Pandiya: Bratim(?) eva tu kāraṇam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unfortunately, at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇas. Kalau śūdra-sambhavāḥ.

Evening Darsana -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas were so learned at that time. Therefore brāhmaṇas were addressed as Pandita. Panditaji. Still they're addressed. Brāhmaṇas were addressed as Pandita, kṣatriyas were addressed as Thakura, vaiśyas were addressed as Mahājana, and śūdras were addressed as Chaudhuri. Yes, still. In northern India this is the etiquette.

Guest (1): But, sir, now these things are so complicated only the title indicates the caste.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Nowadays it is topsy-turvied. There is no system, Kali-yuga.

Guest (2): Today somebody is a brāhmaṇa, tomorrow's he's kṣatriya, and day after tomorrow he's something else.

Prabhupāda: Udaraṁ bharatā. Dakṣyaṁ udaraṁ bhāratā. Bas, Kali-yuga. Somehow or other, if you can fill up your bellies, then you are very expert. That is going on. If you can maintain your family nicely, then you are dakṣya. Dakṣyaṁ udaraṁ bhāratā. These symptoms are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because the Kali-yuga, it is so condemned that it will be difficult to maintain one's body and soul together, that udaraṁ bharita is very expert. He's maintaining. (laughs) Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā (SB 1.1.10). All unfortunate, they have no certainty. In Western countries they have voluntarily given up regulative life, the hippies. No certainty where he shall eat, where he shall lie down.

Conversation During Massage -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Vaiśyas also. Śūdras also.

Satsvarūpa: You were saying that last night in your talk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is required. But he must be a Vaiṣṇava. That's all. Actually none of us belong to any group. They are servant of Kṛṣṇa, and for Kṛṣṇa's sake he can act as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya or a śūdra. It doesn't matter. It is all Kṛṣṇa's service. Just like he is giving massage. That does not mean he's a śūdra. This is actual śūdra's business, servant. But he's not a śūdra. Similarly, we can act for Kṛṣṇa in any position. We do not belong to this material occupation or platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). This is to be dwelled on.(?) He's above all this nonsense. Brahma-bhūyāya means liberated. Jīvan-mukta sa ucyate. Jīvan-mukta means he may act in this life as a kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa, śūdra. It doesn't matter. But he's liberated. He's not going to take birth again. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). A śūdra cannot get that position. So try to understand our philosophy thoroughly and distribute it. Janma sārthaka kari' kara paropakāra. At least nobody can defeat our philosophy in the whole world. That position we have.

Room Conversation -- January 26, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: Just see practically. The uneducated, he's earning because he knows that "If I go with application, what education I have got? Nobody will like me." He's hopeless in that way. "So let me try in my own way." He's earning ten rupees. And the other man, he's starving and taking help from the government, eating at the cost of father. This is education. Otherwise he is becoming hippie. Is that education? And in the Vedic system—education for the brāhmaṇa, how to learn to be truthful, how to control senses, how to become educated in Vedic knowledge. It is for brāhmaṇa. Bas, education, a few men selected. Kṣatriya, he has to learn how to fight: "Go. Fight. Go in the forest and kill animals and lie, try again, learn how to kill." Education. Vaiśya—"Go to the field. See how the plow is moved, how to give protection to the..." Finish education. And śūdra, he has to work under the order of the master. Master says, "Do this": he'll do it. So where is education required, high education, university degrees? And the government is maintaining big, big building, big, big professor, and the professor is... What is that? You told me? Gargamuni was telling.

Room Conversation -- January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Therefore, in India, cow flesh is strictly forbidden. But it doesn't mean that they are vegetarian. They eat fish and goat, lamb, sometimes buffalo. But not to touch the cow. From economic point of view, from vitamin point of view, cow should be given... Just like from the milk of cow we can prepare so many nice things. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44).

Satsvarūpa: I spoke with Nanda-kumāra Mahārāja about his maybe staying here, and he likes the idea.

Prabhupāda: So, there will be good community. How the Egyptian people are?

Pṛthu-putra: They're really a nationalistic type of persons.

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.

Pṛthu-putra: But I never noticed like this anywhere else. And they're really attached to family life, even more than in India.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Pṛthu-putra: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: They have got nice family?

Pṛthu-putra: Oh, yes. They have nice family, and they have many children. And the man is working, and the woman stay home and prepare food, taking care...

Prabhupāda: That is Indian culture.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Gargamuni: And through another member, Mr. Mahesvari, he became one of our members. (break)

Prabhupāda: Rich man, poor man, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, American, Ind..., sab combined. (Hindi) This is really United Nation, our organization. (Hindi) So? What other pictures?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, I have many pictures. I gave a lecture, seminar, just before I came here at the university, about the nature of the Absolute Truth in terms of science and in terms of Bhagavad-gītā, a comparative study of the concept of the Absolute Truth. And there were many professors from physics, chemistry, mathematics, from philosophy, from biology, and from sociology. It was... Balavanta Prabhu was also there, and a few other devotees. It was quite interesting. And there was a slide show.

Prabhupāda: Balavanta was in Manipur?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. This is in the United States.

Prabhupāda: United States.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a śūdra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.

Satsvarūpa: Lord Caitanya, when Rāmānanda Rāya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Ihā bāhya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarūpa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupāda: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally took sannyāsa. He rejected completely material. Niṣkiñcana. But we are not going to be niṣkiñcana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gītā. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected everything, ihā bāhya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bāhya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavism.

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi

vidhunoti suhṛt satām

(SB 1.2.17)

By becoming a brāhmaṇa, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. The other qualities, śūdra quality, kṣatriya, vaiśya, means finished. So then next stage is, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ... Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brāhmaṇa nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, by hearing from Bhāgavata or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement-

naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu

nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā

bhagavaty uttama-śloke

bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī

(SB 1.2.18)

Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guṇa.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpur or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Satsvarūpa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaiśya. But nothing else happened.

Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varṇāśrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the śūdra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care."

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Brahmānanda: Yes. But he's our good friend and supporter. He will help us in Mombassa very much.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Farm project is very nice. Kṛṣṇa gives. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). This is economic problem solved. And brāhmaṇa, brain problem solved, and kṣatriya, protection problem solved, and śūdra, labor problem solved. Four things combined together, live peacefully, happily. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Introduce this farm project. In America there is enough scope. So much land is lying vacant. And if there are jungles, cut the jungles; use the wood. Just like our Virginia. Big, big jungles. You cut the woods, you get ground, open field, and utilize the logs for house-making. Food, shelter, everything there. In Africa, everywhere, the nature's way. Pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). Everything, complete arrangement by Kṛṣṇa. We have to little work. Śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ. If you sit idly, then you'll starve. Otherwise everything is there. You work little and get your all necessities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one person, God, He's supplying everyone whatever necessities.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Only vaiśya community.

Prabhupāda: Some were, not all. And the Muhammadans, the could not convert any gentleman to Muhammadanism. Maybe one or two, say. Very... And similarly, Christian also. No high-class man became Christian. One or two. That is for some other purpose. Just like in Scottish Churches College, the Christian Indians were given more preference. There was one Mr. Raya. He would not speak in Bengali. Even if some Bengali student would like to talk with him Bengali, he would answer in English. (laughs) He was so sharp. (Bengali) (Hindi) You understand Hindi any of you? There is a song in the Howrah Bridge, pontoon bridge. So when this Howrah Bridge..., not this bridge. Up to 1900... When my daughter was married, in 1941, up to that time there was a bridge connecting Howrah and Calcutta, pontoon bridge. That we were seeing from childhood, from our birth. So this was an astonishment in India. They wrote song, (Hindi), that "How wonderful bridge this sāheb company...," because India was being governed by East Indian Company... After mutiny, Queen Victoria took charge. Otherwise the British government was known as Company Raja Sahib, East India Company. So the East India Company, they constructed this temple, er, bridge. So there is a song, (Hindi), like that. So this East India Company... Therefore this railway was known, "East India Railway."

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll leave. So we should not encourage that at all. I think it's different than here.

Prabhupāda: No, their attention should be in chanting. And produce their own food, agriculture. And as soon as they get English education, then... Not "as soon as," but not all of them are fit for being educated. It is not possible. They are śūdra class of men. What he will be educated? Śūdra, vaiśya, they should learn how to plow, how to produce food. They are thinking otherwise, that "Plowing is great labor. If we educate our boys in English, they can go to the city. Immediately they get some..."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Get more money, work less."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is not the position, but they're thinking like that. Everyone wants to work less and get more money. That is Marshall's theory of economic impetus. From Germany also there is a bad report.

Room Conversations -- February 20, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Then that will be very nice. I want to have a small Vaiṣṇava state-varṇāśrama ideal.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is possible in Manipur.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I thought it. Ideal Vaiṣṇava state. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they are doing very nicely, and people will be surprised, "Oh." There is no question of hatred. It is division for proper discharge of duty.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I saw in the airport, the policemen, they have this tilaka.

Prabhupāda: Tilaka.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Policemen, they are dressed, but they have tilaka.

Prabhupāda: Manipur? Manipur?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Manipur. And always give respect. Though I am nobody, but...

Prabhupāda: Tilaka.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- February 28, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: ...the varṇāśrama established, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra-division, scientific division of the society. Ideal state. Just like the legislative assembly. They should be composed of men with complete brahminical culture. And the ministers, president, they should be kṣatriya, and the productive, vaiśyas, and balance śūdra, worker. Unless an ideal class of men is on the top of the state to give advice—just like Britishers, they assemble Parliament—there cannot be any improvement to the human society. All nonsense and rascals, simply by votes go to be member of the Parliament. They assemble. What they know? What they'll do? The whole world is mismanaged because there is no brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindā... I am proposing this because Kṛṣṇa consciousness means namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. That must be... The state must be in favor of brahminical culture and cow protection. Then everything will be all right. So Manipur is small state. If they agree, the leaders of the... It is not politics. It is betterment of the situation. And without brahminical culture, all these third-class, fourth-class, loafer class, simply by votes hooks and crooks and becomes president, Nixon and so on. Where is the betterment? It will never be.

Room Conversation -- March 22, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Why India's such big culture should be lost for the matter of these rascal leaders? This should be stopped. As Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma (BG 4.13). There must be ideal brāhmaṇa, ideal kṣatriya, ideal vaiśya, as Kṛṣṇa says. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is all-inclusive. Economic question? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Grow food. Practical. Just like when I was going to the pandals, millions of clerks were coming—"Education. Educated." And who is growing food? And they have to be provided in these pigeon holes and depend on ration. Is that civilization? And throngs of people are coming, just like machine, ants. Ants are coming. I saw like that. And go to the village side—all vacant land. Nobody's interested to produce food. Everyone is interested to live within the city, in these pigeonholes, and go to the cinema and go to the brothel, go to the club and learn how to drink, how to become gentleman. Is that civilization? Human life's aim is lost. You do not know why you are going to the office, why you are eating, why you are... Keeping them all pet animal's mentality, doggish mentality. We have explained. University education means doggish mentality. Unless he becomes a dog, there is no food.

Room Conversation about Harijanas -- April 10, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So write to him. On the basis of

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim