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Matter and spirit (Conversations)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- August 17, 1971, London:

Revatīnandana: But this, the body itself is sort of a manifestation of ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When the ignorance is gone, then you have got spiritual body.

Revatīnandana: Then I know that I am not this body. Then I know that I am not this body. Now, the question is...

Prabhupāda: Then I am not ignorance.

Revatīnandana: Then there is some distinction, between the nature of the soul and the nature of the body.

Prabhupāda: That distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya.

Revatīnandana: The distinction between the soul and the body?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything. We distinguish matter and spirit. That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya bhedābheda tattva, inconceivable one and different, simultaneously.

Śyāmasundara: When you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a living entity with a small body. Each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: It takes a small body made out of matter.

Prabhupāda: But that body means ignorance. Śarīra avidyā jāla. This body is nothing but a network of ignorance.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- May 2, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So matter can be converted to spirit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Just like expert electrician, the same energy, electric, converting into heat, converting into refrigerator. The energy is the same. Both places the electricity is working, but by his expert management, one is heater, one is cooler. But heat and cool completely different, just opposite. That is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate... (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Ah. Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā. Both matter and spirit, they are energy of the Supreme. So the energy or the energetic—non-different. But by His arrangement, one is working as superior, one is working as inferior. The same example, that the same electric energy is acting as cooler and acting as heater. But the energy is the same. Similarly, originally the energy is God's energy. So God's energy and God, there is no difference. But by his manipulation one is working as material energy, another is working... This is difference. Therefore originally it comes all spiritual energy, life. Therefore we have to take everything from life, not from the dead. Same example: The finger is first coming, life, and then the nail is coming, matter. Not that first of all nail is coming. You can study. This is meditation.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is everything. So life also comes from Him and matter also comes from Him. Energy.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But both come simultaneously?

Prabhupāda: No, no, not simultaneously. It is there already. Coming, idea is coming because we are in this limited world. We see everything here, we see there is beginning. So under that experience, we are thinking it is coming. But it's not coming.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is already existing.

Prabhupāda: Already there. Therefore they are missing the clue. Coming, beginning from here. They are rascals. It is already there. God is eternal and everything is eternal. His energy is eternal. Matter and spirit, everything is there. I am born, I think that this is the beginning of the world. Nonsense, the world was there long ago. Everything was there existing. Just like you get heat from fire. So does it mean heat is beginning? Whenever there is fire, there is heat. But I think, "Now there is fire, heat will come." Heat will not come. It is already there. You will experience. Similarly, heat and light is... Everything is there in fire. If the fire is there, heat and light is there. There is no question of beginning. What do they say? The heat and light, there was beginning? About the...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a source for heat and light.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So source is already there. Therefore heat and light is already there.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when the Paramātmā and the jīvātmā are within the same material living body, so the...

Prabhupāda: Paramātmā is not material body. Paramātmā's energy. Just like heat and light is the energy of the sun. The sun is not feeling heat and light. For him, everything is all right. There is no heat in the sun, body of the sun. He doesn't feel any heat. You are feeling heat. Similarly, for Paramātmā there is no such thing: this is material, this is spiritual. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). We hear that He has got different energies. His energy is one. Viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā. That is spiritual only. Just like sunshine. That is sunshine. Now we are seeing it is covered with cloud. It is our imperfectness. But there, in the sun, there is no such thing cloud. Experience, practical experience. The sun is not experiencing cloud, although there is cloud. We are experiencing. Similarly, this matter and spirit is for us, not for Him. He, either He comes in so-called material body or spiritual body it is the same. It is the same. For Him it is like that, the same, because it is His energy. He can turn matter into spirit, spirit into matter. That He can do.

Room Conversation With David Lawrence -- July 12, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: You have to come to the platform of general, common sense.

David Lawrence: Yes.

Prabhupāda: If you become biased, then it will be impossible.

David Lawrence: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you cannot make progress. You have to come to the platform... Now, the common sense is that can you distinguish between matter and spirit? Can you distinguish?

David Lawrence: In what, in what respect?

Prabhupāda: That I was speaking, that the distinction between matter and spirit: the spirit is the vital force...

David Lawrence: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...or you call spirit soul or ātmā. That you can distinguish. As soon as the vital force is off from this body, this body is a lump of matter. Therefore even if you do not know the spirit soul, any sane man can guess that something is missing in this body. Therefore this body is called dead. Now, that something is described definitely, is soul. So we can distinguish between the spirit and soul, some way or other. So as there is material world, there must be some spiritual world. Otherwise how the spirit is there? The spirit is there, the soul is there. That is spiritual. So two things we are experiencing: spirit and matter. So as we are experiencing this material world, so similarly there must be a spiritual world. There must be a spiritual world. Otherwise wherefrom the spirit comes?

David Lawrence: Yes, yes.

Morning Walk -- December 2, 1973, Los Angeles:

Devotee: Is a seed conscious, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Everything is conscious. First of all, even gross manifestation we cannot understand, what to speak of consciousness. That is different thing. According to our philosophy, everything has got consciousness. Just like this tree has got consciousness.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists also say that they have consciousness.

Prabhupāda: But this tree's consciousness and my consciousness is different. My consciousness is developed. If you pinch on my body, my consciousness will be immediately protesting. But you cut, it will not protest. So consciousness is different. So there is nothing which has no consciousness, but it is a question of degree. It is a question of degree. The more the consciousness is covered, it is called material. The more the consciousness is developed, it is called spiritual. That is the difference between matter and spirit.

Morning Walk -- December 7, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the case of a magnet, suppose if I take a piece of iron and if I magnetize it by electrical current, it will act as a magnet. So they say...,

Prabhupāda: Yes, but the iron is not manufactured by you. Neither the magnetic stone is manufactured by you. You take nature's product and utilize it. That is not your original creation. So what is credit to you? You can transform. That is in your hand. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). There are two things: material and spiritual, inferior energy and superior energy. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho. The living entities, they are superior energy. Why superior? They can take the materials and handle. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. That is your superior energy. You can take the matters and combine it and make something else. That is the world, going on, matter and spirit. You have created your own body by your desire. So that you can do, but the materials, the body, you cannot create. That is not in your power.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, God is merciful, but this fool does not know because he is ignorant. The same thing, mother says. One child, she is feeding very sumptuously. Other one, "Oh, don't take it. You go away." Does it mean the mother is merciful to one child and not to the other? The child does not know it, he cries, "Why shall I not...? Why I shall not eat? Why I shall not eat?" So these foolish questions will be stopped as soon as one becomes God conscious.

Karandhara: But unless they understand the difference between spirit and matter, they can't accept this logic.

Prabhupāda: Well, foolish men cannot accept any logic. Their logic is stick. "If you don't accept, I shall kick on your face. Accept it." That is the... That is wanted.

Karandhara: Like the example when Hitler killed the Jews. They will say, "Well, what should we do, just let Hitler go on killing the Jews because the Jews were sinful? Or should we try and stop Hitler?"

Prabhupāda: Well, Hitler was imperfect and everything was imperfect. That you cannot compare Hitler's action with God's action. God is all-perfect. That is first proposition. God is all-perfect.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Guest (2): What is the ultimate aim of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes, ultimate aim is that there is spirit and matter. As there is material world, there is spiritual world also. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ avyaktaḥ avyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). The spiritual world is eternal. The material world is temporary. We are spirit soul. We are eternal. Therefore our business is to go back to the spiritual world, not that we remain in the material world and change body from bad to worse or worse to bad, er, good. That is not our business. That is a disease. Our healthy life is to enjoy eternal life. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). So our human life should be utilized for attaining that perfectional stage—not to get any more this material body which we have to change. This is the aim of life.

Morning Walk Excerpts -- May 1, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes, dog or hog, but the same. There is no much difference. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ (SB 2.3.19). These animals have been especially mentioned. Śva means dog, and viḍ-varāha means hog. Śva viḍ-varā...

Dr. Patel: Viḍ-varāha: "dirty eating hog."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vit. Vit means stool. Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra. Uṣṭra means camel, and khara means ass. So these gṛhamedhīs they have been described as the śva, viḍ-varāha, uṣṭra, khara. Bhāgavata is very strong (laughs) in criticizing. Therefore in the beginning it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra: (SB 1.1.2) "All types of cheating religion is rejected." Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra. Kaitava means cheating. Śrīdhara Swāmī, he has... Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ: "This Bhāgavata is meant for paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ, those who are above this material existence, paramahaṁsas." Bhāgavata is not meant for ordinary men.

Dr. Patel: Who can make a distinction between milk and water.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no, means he accepts only the milk, not the water. Similarly, this whole world is mixture of spirit and matter, so he rejects matter; he takes only spirit. That is paramahaṁsa.

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Anti-matter, I have explained that, this... So our anti-matter is different. Anti-matter means spirit. But your anti-matter is different.

Robert Gouiran: Yes, it's just a word to define something.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but we mean, anti-matter means there are two things, spirit and matter. So anti-matter means spirit. That is our explanation. It is not matter. Just like matter is destructible. Anti-matter means which is not destructible. That is... Any matter... Find out this verse, acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam aśoṣyaḥ akledyaḥ... Find out...

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa:

acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam
akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca
nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthāṇur
acalo 'yaṁ sanātanaḥ

Prabhupāda: Yes.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Metaphysics Society -- February 21, 1975, Caracas:

Prabhupāda: No, that eternity, that is nice, that the material world is temporary, and the eternity is spiritual. That is clear understanding. Material elements, just like earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, ego, intelligence, and the spiritual element is which is utilizing these material elements. Do you admit this?

Guest: Si.

Prabhupāda: The others? That is the distinction between matter and spirit. Just like this microphone, it is combination of earth, water, air, fire, like that. But the living being, he has utilized, he has combined this matter into this microphone. Is that admitted? Now, exactly like the microphone, the combination of matter and done by some living entity, similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation is combination of matter, and there is one living being or the Supreme Being who has combined them, and it is working. Is that admitted? So that is the difference between limited and unlimited, that I, you are living being... We can also create something like this microphone or this big aeroplane. We have created. That is limited. But there is another one who has created innumerable planets and that is floating in the air. Is it not? We are taking credit of becoming big scientist by creating one airship, 747, five hundred passengers carrying. How many we have created? Maybe hundred, two hundred. But there are millions and trillions of planets floating in the same way in the air, and those planets containing so many big, big mountains, ocean, and they are floating in the air. We can create limited things, but He can create unlimited things. Therefore we have got our limited brain, and He has got unlimited brain. Is that correct?

Guest (Hṛdayānanda): That suggests that He has a brain.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. So as soon as He has got a brain, He is a person. Therefore God is person ultimately. Just like the government. Government is imperson, but the president is person. Similarly, the cosmic manifestation, the energy working, they are all imperson, but the brain behind this is person. That is the distinction between person and imperson.

Room Conversation with Metaphysics Society -- February 21, 1975, Caracas:
Prabhupāda: No, no, whatever consciousness may be, I say that in the Bible it is said that son of God is Christ. His name is Christ. How you can deny the name? No, no, that is their interpretation, "Christ means 'I am.' " They want to interpret in their own way. There is name. How can you deny it?

Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He is saying that you have said that we have a material body and also a spiritual body. So he wants to know if the spirit and matter are born simultaneously or if the matter is born, the material body is born, and later the spirit comes. Prabhupāda: No, from spirit the matter has come out. Just like God said, "Let there be creation." So God was there and creation later on. So God is spirit and creation is matter. Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He has understood from what he thinks is Indian philosophy that you cannot give God a name because that would be limiting God. Prabhupāda: No, you don't give God name. But God is named by His action. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. That is the quality of God, that He is all-attractive. Similarly, Allah. Allah means "the great." So God is great; therefore He is called Allah. So actually God has no name, but according to His action, He has name. That's all right.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Dr. Wolf: Can one assume that matter is a kind of energy?

Prabhupāda: Yes, matter is also energy of God.

Dr. Wolf: But which of the three types of energy does matter come from?

Prabhupāda: Matter, material.

Dr. Wolf: The material energy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the material world there is question of matter and spirit. In the spiritual world simply everything is spiritual.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Dr. Wolf: Can we assume that energy itself, all three types of energy, are related to life?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Wolf: They emanate from life.

Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. Find out this verse. Ahaṁ sarvasya. Sarvasya means both matter and spirit. (Prabhupāda gets up and begins to leave room)

Rūpānuga: We had some... Can we get you something, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Do you want something?

Prabhupāda: No, I am going for...

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo
mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate
iti matvā bhajante māṁ
budhā bhāva-samanvitaḥ
(BG 10.8)

(Leaves room)

Rūpānuga: Now we have some questions we have to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda. Because we're writing a book, we have some specific questions. We have to have time to get these questions in. Did you write them down, Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu? (some discussion amongst men in room) (break)

Satsvarūpa: "The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

Prabhupāda: That's it. He has found out the original source. There is no conference needed.

Room Conversation with Jesuit -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Jesuit: There's no form of passivity in God, there's no form of change in God, there's no, no limitations of any sort. Matter has limitations. The soul is immortal because it has no principle of corruption in it. Aristotle would say that matter has parts, outside parts, and so it can, it has in itself the power of dissolving and it would break up, corrupts. The soul never does.

Prabhupāda: We have got this material body and spiritual soul. That is in this material condition there is distinction between the spirit and matter. As soon as the spirit goes from this material body, it has no value.

Jesuit: No life, true.

Prabhupāda: It is matter only, lump of matter, combination of matter. Therefore the spirit is important even in this life.

Jesuit: Oh, I see that, of course.

Prabhupāda: Yes, spirit is important. But God is fully spirit, He has no material quality. Yes. We have got, in this material condition, difference between the matter and spirit, but God has not so, such thing. He is whole spirit. That is the difference between God...

Jesuit: And also, as a result, the human, you, I, all these, we're all persons separate from one another, distinct from one another, and distinct from God, who is a separate person.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, we admit that.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Sandy Nixon: I mean, are there other spiritual paths... Do all spiritual paths lead to the same end?

Prabhupāda: Spiritual paths are divided into four. Not spiritual. Real spiritual, mixed spiritual. Just like this, "God, give us our daily bread." It is mixed spiritual. One has approached God, God is spiritual, but one is asking for material profit. So this is mixture, matter and spirit. So there are four classes generally known as karmī, fruitive actors, they work for getting some material profit. They are called karmī. Just like all men, you will see, they are working so hard day and night, driving their cars, (makes noise of cars) this way and that way. The purpose is how to get some money. This is called karmī. And then jñānī. Jñānī means he knows that "I am working so hard. Why? The birds, beasts, the elephants, big, big..., eight million different types of..., they are not. They have no business. They have no profession. How they are eating? So why unnecessarily I work so much? Let me know what is the problem of life." So they understand the problem of life is birth, death, old age and disease. And they want to solve it, how to become immortal. So they have conclusion that "If I merge into God's existence, then I become immortal or immune from birth, death, old age and disease." This is called jñānī. And some of them are yogis. They try to acquire some spiritual power to make a show how he can play wonder. A yogi can become very small. If you put him in a room, he will come out. You lock it. He will come out. If there is little space, he will come out. That is called anima. He can fly in the sky, float in the sky. That is called laghima.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot see the spirit, and God is Supreme Spirit. Therefore, to show kindness upon you, He has appeared just like wood and stone so that you can see.

Woman: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: He is everything. He is spirit and matter, everything. But you cannot see Him as spiritual identity. Therefore He has appeared in material form so that you can see. This is Deity. He is God, but you cannot see Him in His original spiritual form at the present moment. Therefore, out of His unbounded mercy, He has appeared before you just like made of wood and stone so that you can see.

Woman: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you are coming daily in our meeting?

Sandy Nixon: Not daily, but I'll come.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. This gentleman...?

Devotee: This is my father.

Father: Your Grace...

Prabhupāda: Oh. Thank you very much.

Morning Walk -- July 14, 1975, Philadelphia:

Ravīndra-svarūpa: But according to the scientists, our body is made up of little cells just like a brick wall is made up of so many individual bricks. Each... Like in one piece of skin there is...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is body. Just like I live in a house. The house is made of so many bricks. But I am not brick.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: But they say that...

Prabhupāda: "They say!" They are foolish, we always say. Because I am living in a house consisting of so many bricks, it does not mean that I am brick.

Ravīndra-svarūpa: But is each cell an individual living entity?

Prabhupāda: That I do not know. What do you mean by cell? But there are many living entities within this body. That we know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is different from the concept of cell. there are many living entities like germs...

Prabhupāda: So concept of cell is the cell is just like bricks. Matter and spirit, two things are there. Either it must be matter or must be spirit.

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- March 1, 1976, Mayapur:

Acyutānanda: They're never satisfied with their achievements.

Prabhupāda: No, they cannot be because they did not find out what is the ultimate source. They could not. Therefore they cannot be satisfied. If... A really scientist, how he can be satisfied? The goal is not yet achieved. How they can be satisfied? But we are satisfied because we know that the goal, the cause, ultimate cause, is Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...instruction is not blind. It is fact. Just like my body is there, and on account of my energy, so I am getting flesh, I am getting nail.

Acyutānanda: Yes, they cannot explain how the body transforms into...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Acyutānanda: ...tissue.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But explain or not explain, I am seeing practically that two things are coming out: one, the skin, where there is sensation; and where, this nail, there is no sensation. This is matter and spirit. Where there is consciousness, that is spirit. Where there is no consciousness, that is matter.

Hṛdayānanda: Very good example.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hṛdayānanda: Very nice example.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1976, Honolulu:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In other words, they are theorizing that "Death is a very peaceful state of sleeping. Why are we protesting so much"?

Prabhupāda: But that is not sleeping. After sleeping you have to awake, and you have to bark like dog, "Give me food. Gow! Gow! Gow!" You are not going to sleep after death. You are awakening like a dog, and bark and disturb others. That is your mistake, that you are sleeping forever. No sleeping. You have to wake up again.

Rādhāvallabha: (break) ...told me that he was.... He said that spirit and matter are the same. So I grabbed him and threatened to punch him in the nose. He said, "No, no, that is different."

Devotee (1): (break) So if we have to wake again, then there's no really.... Why should we have to stop birth and death?

Prabhupāda: So you have no experience? Do you sleep perpetually, whole day and night? Why do you wake up? Is it not your experience that you sleep at night and wake up at daytime?

Devotee (1): Yes. But if I'm going to wake again, then why should I want to stop it? I go to sleep; I wake up.

Prabhupāda: No, but your waking.... You are going to wake up like a dog. That is the privilege. You sleep perpetually..., not perpetually, for seven months, and then you wake up as a dog. The body is changed. And go on barking. That you do not know. That is ignorance.

Room Conversation with George Gullen, President of Wayne State University -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: I am asking, you have studied something about our philosophy?

George Gullen: A little. Not very much. I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be, I'm certain.

Prabhupāda: It is not a sectarian movement. (to someone else:) Why you stop? Yes. (to Gullen:) It is essential knowledge for the whole human society. There are two things, matter and spirit. We can understand, every one of us, we are combination of two things, matter and spirit. The matter is the body, and the spirit is the moving force.

George Gullen: Umhm, I hear what you're saying, yes.

Prabhupāda: But the modern civilization, throughout the whole world, they are very serious about the matter, but they are completely in ignorance about the spirit. What is your opinion about these things?

George Gullen: I understand that very clearly, and I think we're caught up terribly in matters that are not of the spirit. We're terribly caught up in materialistic things.

Prabhupāda: But material, that is temporary. This body, your body, my body, anyone's body, that is temporary. It will not stay. It has taken birth at a certain date, it will endure for certain years, and then it will be finished. But the spirit, that will continue. It will accept another body. Just like we are accepting, we are giving up our body, childhood body, accepting the body of a boy, then giving up the boyhood body, accepting the body of a young man. Similarly, this body.... Just like I am an old man. This will be finished, and I will accept another body. So the spirit soul is eternal, and the body is temporary. So we are taking care of the body very much. That is also required. But what about the spirit soul? This education is lacking.

Interview with Kathy Kerr Reporter from The Star -- June 17, 1976, Toronto:

Prabhupāda: So this brahma-bhūta stage is spiritual stage. We want to bring everyone to this spiritual stage. That is the sum and substance. We are not on the material stage. Therefore it is little difficult to understand. Everyone is on the material stage, but we are working on the spiritual stage. But the spirit and matter, we can distinguish. Without the spirit, the body is nothing but lump of matter. The spirit is there, the matter is there, but we are so dull, we do not understand what is that spirit. That is the difficulty of the modern society. This is the most important thing. Without the spirit the body cannot move. They are daily experiencing that without spirit the body is nothing, decomposed matter. But still they are simply licking up that decomposed matter without taking care of the spiritual. This is the most defective position of the modern society. So it is not a Hindu religion or Christian religion. It is a science to understand.

Interview and Conversation -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Interviewer: What is your opinion of what this movement should be doing in terms of world activities and world affairs that it isn't doing now? Are there some new areas that you may try to influence?

Prabhupāda: No, we are pushing on this movement all over the world. It is not that this particular place is important, but our interest is that Western people... They are so intelligent. They are very systematically making improvement in material condition of life. They should know also that spiritual life is more important than material life. Because, for example, we are combination of matter and spirit. So long the spirit soul is there, our body is very important. Otherwise, without spirit, the body has no importance. Everyone can understand. Similarly, all this material advancement of civilization is very good, provided there is spiritual understanding also. Otherwise it is decoration of the dead body. A dead body decorated has no value, but when there is life, then the body is valuable. So material advancement of material civilization means decoration of the dead body. But when there is spiritual understanding, then there is importance of everything.

Janice Johnson: Why is it that the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has in the last couple of years attempted to make itself a little bit more respectable in the public's eyes by having members wear street clothes and wigs and so forth, while they are soliciting?

Prabhupāda: By nature it is very important movement. Therefore those who are intelligent, they are taking serious interest. We have got so many books. Perhaps you have seen. They are being accepted by the learned circle all over the world. University, colleges, professors, they are reading our books, placing standing order, and we have got relationship, especially with educated circle. They are trying to understand the importance of this movement.

Radio Interview -- July 27, 1976, London:

Harikeśa: They are always maddened by lusty desires.

Prabhupāda: Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Very, very risky civilization. Keeping the whole human society in darkness. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). By material adjustment they are thinking that "Everything we will enjoy."(?) There are two different things, matter and spirit. The spirit requires spiritual food.

Evening Conversation -- August 8, 1976, Tehran:

Mr. Hamidi: Of course, I believe that they're all the same, but...

Prabhupāda: No, same. But you must explain at least. I want to know how far you have understood spiritual culture as it is. That is my question.

Mr. Hamidi: Well, of course, it is very difficult to differentiate.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is difficult. Practically you do not know what is spiritual culture. That is a fact. So first of all, you must try to understand what is spiritual culture. Spiritual culture means... There are two things within our experience. Matter and spirit. So matter is this body, and spirit is the soul within the body. Without spirit, this material body has no value. That we experience every day. When a man is dead, we take it, now the body is useless, throw it away. Therefore the body is important so long the spirit soul is there. And that is spirit. And when we study that spirit soul, that is the beginning of spiritual culture. If you have no idea of what is that spirit, then there is no question of spiritual culture. With this body we cannot make any progress of spiritual culture. That is not possible. The body is matter. They're explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Antavanta ime dehā. Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Antavanta ime dehā nityasyoktāḥ śarīriṇaḥ. So try to understand what is spirit, what is matter.

Evening Conversation -- August 8, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like, you can go immediately, but this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move. Because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities, eating, sleeping and sex and defense, then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human beings. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand. This is spiritual side, this is material side. The spiritual side is important. Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side. They can take care of the material side.

Evening Darsana -- August 9, 1976, Tehran:

Ali: Shouldn't there be a balance between physical existence and spiritual existence? Like between body and spirit?

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, you must have spiritual understanding, then spiritual study. If you have no spiritual understanding, then why spiritual study? All these scientists, they are trying to understand the spirit soul by material, on material platform. Therefore they are being misled. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, to distinguish between matter and spirit it is negatively described: nainaṁ chindanti śāstrāṇi. Find out. The spirit soul is there which cannot be cut into pieces by any instrument.

Morning Walk and Room Conversation -- August 9, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā, yes. You do not read even. You should have reference immediately.

Parivrājakācārya: Even here on the earth, even ice in the South Pole of the earth, they find much life inside the ice.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Here inside the ice there are life.

Parivrājakācārya: They are very surprised. They said how is this happening.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Life is everywhere. This bogus theory there is no life, the atmosphere is different, it is bogus, simply bogus. Because spirit soul is never affected by any material atmosphere. That is the distinction between matter and spirit. It has nothing to do with this material atmosphere. They don't have knowledge, they are baffled. And those who have no knowledge, they are accepting.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Interviewer: Sir, do you think it is necessary for India to eschew religion?

Prabhupāda: It is not religion. I have already explained. Did you not mark that this is spiritual knowledge? You are combination of spirit and matter. The spirit I have already explained. And if you don't take care of the spirit portion then you are making suicide. You are losing the opportunity of your human life. It is essential. One should be cognizant of the spiritual necessity of life. Otherwise, you are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Then you remain as cats and dogs and there is risk, very risky life. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir. You do not know what kind of body you are going to get next life. It is essential. You must be prepared... (break) ...body, but you do not know what kind of body you are going to accept. That knowledge is lacking.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Pradyumna: So today's the first. (background discussion between Hari-śauri and others about domestic arrangements) (break) All the basic questions are asked, "What is life? What is this?" So many things.

Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." This is the... The world is full of rascals and fools. So if you speak something sanity, they will take "Insanity." That is the difficulty. Two things are there, one spirit, one matter. They ignore spirit completely. Although they cannot understand, cannot replace. Just like the body. The body is smashed, but what was the element keeping the body? This simple thing they cannot understand. There are two things, matter and spirit. Unfortunate. When we speak of spirit, they take it as brainwash. So fool. So you can take it so long I am resting. (break) ...correctly. Then the dīkṣā-guru (microphone moving). If you like... Then he is dīkṣā-guru. Then guru. So śikṣā-guru becomes dīkṣā-guru. But guru means one who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa and teaches properly. That's all.

Morning Walk -- February 1, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: ...matter and spirit. Why these scientists cannot understand?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're somehow confused.

Prabhupāda: Hm? That means less intelligent.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We need to show the alternative.

Prabhupāda: No, a child can see there are two things, that what is the difference between a living man and dead man. So my father was living one moment before. Now he is dead. The something is missing. The two things are there. Where is the difficulty? And these big, big scientists, they cannot understand. How less intelligent they are. Immediately understood two things, but something is missing.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow they have developed this false understanding that everything can be reduced to atoms and molecules.

Prabhupāda: That is still less intelligence, still less intelligence. Kartāham iti manyate.

Morning Conversation -- April 19, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: He should not produce such thing without consulting the scientific men.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually I suggest that we make another movie.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The article that we are writing right now is very appropriate, that, the difference between spirit and matter. That is what he's trying to show there, but here we have many scientific evidence, and we can make it... So it will be very nice when we finish this monograph.

Prabhupāda: So make it improved, and another film you can make. It doesn't matter.

Page Title:Matter and spirit (Conversations)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, Serene
Created:30 of Mar, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=33, Let=0
No. of Quotes:33