Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahaprabhu was adored by Rūpa Gosvāmī, "Oh, You are the most munificent incarnation. You are distributing Kṛṣṇa-prema." So we have taken that job. So people must know our importance. So outside propaganda is required. Don't you think it is required? Yes. So make literature. Make nice literature with picture, we get it printed, and then, in the meantime, you try to see things, how it can be managed. And let him move outside. As I am moving, he will move. And if some other boys who are determined to remain brahmacārī, not to marry...They can also take up. Brahmācari and sannyāsī is meant for moving. Yes. Gṛhastha cannot move because they have to earn. They have to maintain. But the brahmacārīs, they will go and beg contribution. A sannyāsī will make the situation favorable. Just like if now a little more, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is known, if some brahmacārī goes, that "We come from the..." Just like in San Francisco it happened. One of our brahmacārīs was arrested. So when he was taken into police custody, the officer said, "Oh, he is Swami's man. Let him go. Let him go out." Yes. Actually happened so. Similarly, in New York also happened. They were arrested in the subways, and when they were taken in the police custody, he also, "Oh, they are doing nice work. Let them go." (chuckling) So we must make the situation—people will know that they are doing some good work. And when the brahmacārīs go there to beg some contribution, they will be glad: "Oh, yes, they are doing nice work." So we have to do outside propaganda. First of all you make this literature, as I suggested. That you have got. You consult, both together. You do it, and I shall get it printed, at least a few thousand, five thousand or ten thousand. And then Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja will go to stay in every center for some days and make, see the important men and convince. That is necessary.
Maintain (Conversations 1969 - 1975)
Expressions researched:
"maintain"
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|"maintaining"
|"maintains"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Revatinandana: Yes, (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That means the social structure is very bad. Otherwise, natural procedure is that everyone should be self-independent. But why state has to give them help? That's not good. You may be... Just like a son may be very rich man's son, but if the father provides him only, then he's a useless son. Is it not? If the father has to provide him money for his maintenance, then that son is useless son. That is not a good certificate. Although you may be very much proud that "I am maintaining my so many sons," why you should maintain? Let them be self-supported.
Yadubara: But what can the state do? Should the state just leave the people alone?
Prabhupāda: No. They should make the citizens so nicely developed in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness that they should be self-dependent, self-satisfied. That is the ideal of civilization.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is not advancement, although they are very much proud of advancement. This is not sign of advancement. According to Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate: (Bg. 6.20-23) "If one is situated in such a position that even in the greatest, gravest type of dangerous position, he is not agitated, he is not agitated, that is the real happiness." Yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate. These are the words, yasmin sthite: "Situated in such a position that although he is facing greatest danger, he is not agitated." There is one instance. Not very long ago, say, about two hundred years ago there was a big zamindar. He was known as king in Krishnanagar. So he was charitably disposed. He went to a brāhmaṇa and asked him—he was a great learned scholar—"Can I help you any way?" And the pandit replied, "No. I don't require your help. I am quite satisfied." "How you are satisfied?" "Oh, my, these students, they bring some rice. So my wife boils that, and I have got this tamarind tree. I take some leaves and prepare some juice out of it. That is sufficient." So he was satisfied. That's all. But he was a learned scholar. Similarly, Canakya Pandit... You have perhaps heard. He was the greatest politician. He was prime minister of India. He was living in a cottage and just giving instruction. So that is India's Vedic civilization. Everyone is satisfied, self-sufficient. And now in your country, oh, you have to attend office fifty miles off. And because you have to take this trouble, Kṛṣṇa has provided with car. You are thinking, "I am advanced." You don't think that "Although I have got car, I have to go fifty miles off from my home." This is illusion. You are thinking, "I am advanced. I am happy. I have got this car." This is illusion. Yes. Gaurasundara was going to maintain, and he drives fifty miles off, Honolulu. The poor fellow had to rise early in the morning. You see? And so much haste.(?) Therefore: "Gaurasundara, you better give up this job. Just depend on Kṛṣṇa." So he has given up. What is this? Fifty miles going by motorcycle or motor car, how much tedious it is. But still, they are satisfied that "We are advanced." And because they have many cars, therefore in your country always there is that (makes traffic noise), "sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," wherever I go.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos. Neither you can depend only on brāhmaṇa. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg. The leg is also required, the brain is also required, the arm is also required—for cooperation, to fulfill the mission of the whole body. So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain. I am not talking of your state or my state. I am taking the world as it is. The brain... Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a kṣatriya king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization. So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work. That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception. Mukha-bāhūru-padebhyaḥ. They say, mukha... Mukha means the face. Bahu means the arm. Uru means this, this, or waist. And pada. So anywhere, either you take this state or that state—doesn't matter—unless there is a smooth, systematic establishment of these four orders of life, the state or the society will not go very smoothly.
Prabhupāda: Sannyāsī should be always preaching. Parivrājakācārya. Four stages of sannyāsa: kuṭīcaka, bahūdaka, parivrājaka, and paramahaṁsa. In the beginning... Because according to Vedic civilization everyone has to take sannyāsa at a certain age. So as a matter of routine if he takes sannyāsa... Just like this old man I was asking that "Now you have children grown up, why don't you take sannyāsa?" But he is hesitating. Nobody likes, because sannyāsa life is difficult. So first there is kuṭīcaka means he gives up the connection of the family life, takes sannyāsa officially, but he is not accustomed to maintain himself independently; therefore, he goes out of the village and makes a cottage and lives there. And the foodstuff, the home supply, that is called kuṭīca. Kuṭī means cottage. Then when he is little practiced, then he says family members that "Don't bring foodstuffs. I shall go to every village man and ask something for my food. I shall depend on them, not on you." That is called bahūdaka. Bahū means many. Not accepting food from one place but from many. Then when he is prac... Because first problem is problem, when he is practiced, "Now Kṛṣṇa is giving us food, so why shall I remain in one place? Let me preach." That is called parivrājakācārya, when he is preaching. Parivrājaka. Parivrājaka means wandering all over.
Devotee (4): Or else to purchase the machine for $700.
Pratyatoṣa: But then if you purchase it, you either have to...
Prabhupāda: If somebody pays $700 at a time, then?
Pratyatoṣa: Well, that's for purchasing it. Then you have to maintain it yourself or else you have to hire somebody else to maintain it for you. But you could just lease it for about $85 a month, and the maintenance and paper and paper tape and supplies...
Prabhupāda: You have to purchase for $700, then you have to pay maintenance service.
Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, unless you can maintain yourself. I don't think they're too difficult to maintain. Teletype terminals are very reliable.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. Maintenance is different. Either you maintain yourself or pay that.
Pratyatoṣa: Correct.
Devotee (4): The machine is like a typewriter. It's hooked up with a computer... By telephone cables?
Pratyatoṣa: Oh, yeah. You just dial over an ordinary telephone. You can use more than one time-sharing service on the same terminal just by dialing different numbers. In Washington, D.C., I was using four different computers through the same terminal, just by dialing different numbers. And they can be thousands of miles away, it doesn't matter. In Minneapolis, I'm using a computer that's located in..., near Baltimore, near Washington, D.C. And it's just like... It doesn't matter how far away it is.
aṁsadūta: Well it reminds me of Janārdana. You know Janārdana was a big scholar and he was very intelligent, but he never produced very much. You remember Janārdana? So Maṇḍalībhadra is working full time. He never comes to the temple. Of course, he lives far away, but he never comes to the temple. And I know when a person doesn't come to the temple, it's very difficult for him to maintain, especially if he maintains a full time job. It has an imperceptible effect on your consciousness. And he also, you know, we sometimes, we don't see very much eye to eye. Like for instance, this coming Back to Godhead he wanted to produce, he wanted to put a picture of some of the... Like there's a picture in one of the old Back to Godheads of Vṛndāvana. So I said, "This picture is not good because Kṛṣṇa is not in this picture. There's no Kṛṣṇa. We must have..."
Prabhupāda: Old Vṛndāvana?
Haṁsadūta: Yes, some buildings. Like Jaya Govinda used to write those articles, you remember? He used to write articles...
Prabhupāda: Comic?
Haṁsadūta: No, no, not comics. He would take some pictures of the scenery of Vṛndāvana, like the Yamunā or some of the temples, like Madana-Mohana temple, like that. So I said, "We must have a picture of Kṛṣṇa or a devotee or Prabhupāda. It can't be without some activity, some form, because people will not understand what it is. It may be very nice for us." So I feel that he has to either associate more with the temple or he must be paid some money so that he can work full time and... Some change must be made.
Prabhupāda: No you pay and... You pay him money, and he must come. Both things should be done. He must come.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Similarly, the central stomach of the whole creation is God, or Kṛṣṇa. He's the enjoyer and He's the friend. He's maintaining everyone. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Therefore He's friend of everyone. And everywhere... He is maintaining means everywhere He's the proprietor. Just like a king can maintain the whole country, citizens, because he's the proprietor. Without being proprietor, how he can become everyone's friend? So these things have to be understood, that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor, and Kṛṣṇa is friend. If you know these three things, then your knowledge is full. You do not require to understand anything more. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa by these three formulas, then your knowledge is complete. You don't require any more knowledge. But people will not agree. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be proprietor? Hitler shall be proprietor. Yayha Khan should be proprietor. (laughter) Nixon shall be proprietor." That is going on. Therefore you are in trouble. But if you understand these three things only, then your knowledge is finished. But he'll not accept, he'll put forward so many impediments for understanding these three things. And that is the cause of our trouble.
Guest (1): Doing what? How do you spend it?
Prabhupāda: We have to maintain our establishment, the temple, the Deity, so many devotees. In each center we have got at least twenty-five devotees. At the most two hundred devotees. So their living costs, everything, by some way or other, Kṛṣṇa is giving us. But we have no fixed income; neither we have any bank balance.
Guest (1): In the minds of some people the sudden attraction of Western youth to Eastern religions...
Prabhupāda: No. It is not Eastern. That is a wrong conception. God is for everybody. Eastern people, when I speak of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they say, "What is this Kṛṣṇa? We know Kṛṣṇa. What we have to learn from Swamiji?" "Familiarity breeds contempt." But in the Western countries when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, they see the philosophy. They see the science and become attracted. We, in the very beginning, we neglect: "Oh, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Otherwise there is no question of Western or Eastern. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Kṛṣṇa is neither Western, neither Eastern. But Eastern, our, especially Indians, they have learned to reject. That is their education: immediately reject it. This is their new culture, to reject everything. At least Jawaharlal Nehru began like that, "Anything Indian is bad. Everything London-made is good." That was his philosophy.
Prabhupāda: That's it. Even you get bread, what do you get? Bread is already given even to the animals. That they do not know. Therefore, they take religion for material gain. Dharma artha. And Bhāgavata says, arthasya dharmaikāntasya kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ. When you get money, it is not for satisfaction of your senses. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). And when it is the question of kāma, desire, that does not mean sense gratification. Lābho jīveta yāvatā. Simply you have to accept thing for living. It is not that you shall not eat. You eat, live. Then what for living? Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ. Your working so hard is not that to develop your material condition of life. You live peacefully without any disturbance of hunger, but your life should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, asking about Kṛṣṇa. That is life. So we don't want to stop all the activities. But they are busy always, they have no time for... Ask all these men, they are obstructing: "What these people are doing?" There is no end of their sense gratification. First of all get one motorcar is required, "All right." As soon as he gets money, "I'll purchase another one for my son, another for my daughter, another for my wife." Going on, going on. And he has to maintain four motorcars, then work hard, hard, hard. So indriya-prītiḥ: "Oh, I have got a car, why not my son?"
Prabhupāda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa. So out of the three we are adding Brahmānanda, Girirāja and Madhudviṣa.
Devotee: What about Gaurasundara?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: (indistinct) America.
Prabhupāda: Oh, Gaurasundara. So, Girirāja, Brahmānanda and Madhudviṣa we want to maintain. Then... (door opens and closes) Three candidates, four, new?
Rūpānuga: Because originally Bali-mardana had a zone but now he's with ISKCON Press so actually he doesn't have a zone any more.
Prabhupāda: Oh. He has... So you are also out. (laughter)
Devotee: It's really a difficult problem.
Prabhupāda: Ah, no problem. GBC means now they should tour very extensive. That is the first principle, the GBC. Not sit down (in) one place and pass resolution. No, they must be active. They must act like me. As I am old man, I am traveling all over the world. Now to give me relief, the GBC members... I shall expand into twelve more so that they can exactly work like me. Gradually they will be initiators. At least first initiation. You must make advance. That is my motive. So, in that way I want to divide it in twelve zones. And we have to make more propaganda throughout the whole world. Now if you think that the world is so big, twelve members are insufficient, then you can increase more than that and make the zone similarly divided. It is world affair after all.
Prabhupāda: There are so many married families. So many married families. He is married family, he is married family, he is married family. They have got children, wife, everything. There is no problem. The children are getting nice education, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, dancing, eating nicely. Just now we are purchasing one house in front of our temple, seventy thousand dollars for providing gṛhasthas. Husband, wife, children will live there. So we have no problem. The gṛhasthas are there, the brahmacārīs are there, sannyāsīs are there—everyone is there. We maintain the Vedic culture, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, or brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. The eight orders of social structure we maintain. But they're all engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is the distinction. Everyone is twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service.
Guest (2): What are the kṣatriyas of this order supposed to doing now?
Prabhupāda: They are taking to politics. Yes.
Guest (2): Whom are they fighting? Whom are they going to fight?
Prabhupāda: No, some of our members, they are standing for election in the government. Election. And we hope one day some of our men will become President. That is kṣatriya's business, to take part in administration.
Prabhupāda: British Empire, when there was British Empire, when they were getting money from all over the world, somehow or other they constructed so many big, big buildings. Now they are encouraging not so big, and now it is difficult to maintain it. We can see practically that you have got so nice buildings in London, but it is not being properly maintained. You haven't got sufficient means now to maintain them. Therefore it was..., British Empire was for the time being that prosperity. Now to keep up your prestige you are concerned in so many ways. So anything you do in this material world, that is temporary. So many-Roman Empire, Moghul Empire, British Empire, Hitler Empire—they came and gone. But my real problem is that I am eternal, so what I am doing for my eternal life? That is it. Temporarily I may become very rich or poor, it doesn't matter. But people are being taught, "Oh, you are poor? You become rich." That's all. Just like our India trying to imitate the Western world. But they do not see that in the Western world, in America, in Europe, why these young boys, they are rejecting this materialistic way of life? These boys have come to me because they have rejected, they don't like. Just like you are coming. Why you are surrendering to me? Because you are not satisfied. So our Indians, they do not see that "These men, they have already everything. Why they are rejecting?" All facility. Because this will not give us real happiness. We are spirit soul. We cannot be happy simply by material opulence. That is not possible. This is Vedic civilization: how people will be happy.
Jayatīrtha: (?) minutes to seven.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this propensity will increase in this Kali-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Jayatīrtha: ...so many riots by the students at the university there that the shopkeepers in the local area are suing the State because the windows have been broken so many times and so much merchandise has been stolen by the students, they think the State should pay them back.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. The State must be responsible. What the State reply?
Jayatīrtha: Well, they're having to litigate in court over it. The State doesn't want to do it. So this university there is one of the most famous universities in the whole country. They spend so many millions of dollars to maintain it nicely. (break) (dog barking) ...changing their bodies in particular ways to make them look (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: When you do not take care of God, you must take care of dog. (laughter) (end)
Gurudāsa: That Devasa(?) boy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this cheating process is going on. But you cannot cheat Kṛṣṇa or māyā, that is not possible. It is gosvāmī, that is (indistinct) Don't make compromise that somehow or other just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everything will be done. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Duratyayā. It is very difficult to surmount the laws of nature. So how is that achieved? Just like laws of nature are so strict, if you eat more, immediately you get indigestion. So how you can cheat? You can experience. Nature's law is working. Therefore, to become brāhmaṇa means satyam. You know the meaning of satyam? Satyam means truth. The first quality is he is truthful. Satyaṁ śaucam ārjavam āstikyaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam. The beginning is satyam. Generally the people in pilgrimages like Vṛndāvana, they have taken this religiousness as a profession to earn money, just like other businessmen do. That is cheating. Generally they do so. In Los Angeles they are keeping the standard given by ourself. At every āratik in early morning, at least 150 men. Even though I am not present, by system, by kīrtana, dancing, offering Deity worship nicely (indistinct). So we have to maintain the standard very strictly. Otherwise it will again become Rādhā-Dāmodara temple and Bharatpur Mahārāja (indistinct). You will have to find out some customer to sell it. What is the use of starting temple if you do not do it properly? Why should you waste your energy? Better travel and preach. Don't take the risk of starting big, big temple. As soon as the energy is gone, there will be trouble. That Govindajī's temple, that man lost everything because he was cheating. If this man is also cheating, then he will also. Our Tīrtha Mahārāja is cheating, then what is his...? He got so many things but he could not do anything. Now he is after these buildings, that's all. Otherwise, what is his credit? He is not a good preacher. He was at the head of Caitanya Maṭha. How much duty was..., heavy duty he had to preach. But he has no preaching capacity.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee: He would like to have him translate English to Indonesian.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): He is the director of the (indistinct) of Hindu and Buddhist religion, from Department of Religious Affairs. His duty is to maintain and look after the development of (indistinct) expecting that all people of Indonesia that has to follow any kind of religions (indistinct) Christians, because we have also in charge for the Christianity, we have also in charge for the Muslim, or Islam, and we have also in charge for the Catholic and we have also in charge for other...
Prabhupāda: Very good idea. This is very nice.
Guest (2): So because we have so many in the prosecuting of their religions, there might be, the people between many religions (indistinct). So the government have to lead the people how (indistinct), to supply also, in the (indistinct) of their materials for readings, and facilities for their, prosecuting their religions. This is the actual (indistinct) department.
Prabhupāda: So this is the idea which I was explaining that...
Guest (2): (Indonesian) As a matter of fact, also that we are looking from the Hindu and Buddhist religions' point of view, how to get (indistinct) this department, especially because we are feeling of lacking of materials because no of our books actually here, written in ancient Indonesian language, which are translated from Sanskrit (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Ancient English...?
Guest (2): Ancient Indonesian language.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā.
Śyāmasundara: Have money to expand. Everything is going nice. It is organized.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Management means everything is in order, otherwise what is the illusion of (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: If there's no manager, then a sannyāsī should step forward.
Pañcadraviḍa: Sometimes though it's hard to maintain this routine. You yourself told the devotees not to go out and purchase excessive amounts of sweets but that didn't check them. They're still in the sweet shops continually. This morning I woke a,...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Pañcadraviḍa: I went to wake a devotee up, I woke him up at a quarter to four. I said "Prabhu, you want to get up now, it's four o'clock, time to wake." So he didn't wake but I, I went ahead and bathed because I wanted to do that, and then I come back and it was almost time for ārati. So I said, "If you are not going to bathe at least get out of bed and come to āratik. But he wouldn't even do that much. So what can you do under these conditions when you tell somebody, you can't physically twist their arm.
Śyāmasundara: But the whole idea is that if you create a spiritual atmosphere that's so enlivening that everyone will want to participate in it, that's the solution. You can't individually treat each person. You have to get the whole thing generated by, by pouring water on the root.
Prabhupāda: That if you sit down for chanting, they should automatically sit down. If one is left, then you can maybe say, "Why you did not come?" But if there is no chanting, no sitting, simply wake up, wake up, wake up, all right, I'm waking up (indistinct). But one may wake up or not, you begin your work immediately.
Prabhupāda: This is a fact. So how to correct it. If you do not correct yourself, how you can correct?
Pañcadraviḍa: Well we, many of us have tried to correct ourself, and as a result we have been accused of being separatist, simply because we don't want to go along with the nonsense that everybody else is doing, but we want to maintain some standard for ourself, of reading and chanting. Because we don't want to sit down and talk nonsense or do nonsense, and if you try to stop them they will not stop. So why we should fall down to that level? So we behave as separatist. We go into our room and we'll read, or we'll go into our room and chant, or we'll try and keep ourself clean, or try and do these things, and that is separatism because it's not falling into the level of māyā that's going on everywhere else in the temple, engaging in party politics and all these other things. That is, that is what I feel about it. Most of the devotees, they seem out of place.
Prabhupāda: Whatever is done is done. Now, you try to correct others by behaving yourself. Otherwise, there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here. That's all. Otherwise, it will be not very nice to attract when people are attracted by seeing your behavior. They are seeing that, "Oh, Europeans and Americans, they have got such nice Vaiṣṇavas." They are attracted on that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they will immediately accuse, "Oh, they are..." So that should be corrected. The same principle, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere, we should behave ourselves nicely, then teach others. Then it will be (indistinct). Another, this is general principle, now we have discussed, now we try to follow. Another thing that Keśi-ghāṭa affair. Shall we make further progress? I acquired that property (indistinct). What is your opinion? From the circumstances as that is now, because any temple, it must be nicely, very nicely managed, otherwise you cannot attract. Our Los Angeles temple we want to attract people. So it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen. So unless, that means there must be sufficient bank balance. Such a big temple.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (2): Because not everyone is going to want to be, uh, you know, it's really, if the temple's not there where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2): Then they'll not want to maintain any standard themselves. They just fall back immediately into their old habits, naturally.
Śyāmasundara: Of course if we could, we could enter the negotiation and save it for a future date, because it won't be available.
Devotee (2): I don't think we need to worry about that.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (2): I think that if we, if we don't worry about the material thing at all, that if we do the sp..., we start and we have a spiritual base, that it will grow naturally and Kṛṣṇa will provide us with any material facilities we need. We don't need to try to get things for the future.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Devotee (2): If we have devotees then...
Śyāmasundara: That's why I think Kṛṣṇa doesn't want us to have it really.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (3): What's the use of having a giant temple if, if we all... We have seen that all over India. They have giant temples but no...
Prabhupāda: No management.
Brahmānanda: Yes, in charity.
Prabhupāda: Because always women population is greater than the man. So those who are kings, they could maintain more than one wife. So not only one wife, another three dozen maid-servants. They are freely mixing with king. They got also children. But they were not, I mean to say, eligible for throne. Only the married wife's son. This is, this was the system. Just like Vidura. Vidura happened to be a son of such maid-servant. So she had, he had no claim on the throne. Dāsī-putra. They were called dāsī-putras. They were maintained. Just like in royal family, but they have no claim on the throne. (pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are two scientists working on how to make...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How to make chemicals for contraceptive. One is in Stanford. His name is Carl Geraldsey. And one is in Harvard. His name is Corey, E.J. Corey. They are quite famous now.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are very famous now.
Prabhupāda: Because they gave contraceptives?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They are trying to make compounds, steroids.
Prabhupāda: Sterile. When all the scientists are not famous, notorious. Then this will be called notorious. Somebody has manufactured atomic weapon. Somebody has contraceptive. Somebody has synthetics.
Prabhupāda: That's a fact. I have several times explained that in higher sense there is no matter. Did I not? So life and matter equal, that can be accepted, but there is superior and inferior position. Just like Kṛṣṇa is life, I am also life. Kṛṣṇa is also person, I am also person. Kṛṣṇa has got... What Kṛṣṇa, propensities He has got, I have also got. Kṛṣṇa wants to love another girl, so I want to love. A girl wants to love another boy, so Rādhārāṇī wants to love Kṛṣṇa. So everything qualitatively are all equal, but Kṛṣṇa can marry at a time millions of wives. You cannot maintain even one wife. That is the position. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ, Vedas say. That is the difference. He is life, I am also life. All the life symptoms, there is in Kṛṣṇa and there is in me, but still I am inferior, He is superior. And that is the law, that the inferior should be subordinately serving to the superior. Therefore we want to..., our business is to serve Kṛṣṇa, although qualitatively we are one. That inferior, superior, that is the difference between God and the living entity.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I am not clear about the life equal to matter.
Prabhupāda: Life equal to matter means the same thing. Just like here you pinch, you feel, but here with a, I mean to say, iron instrument you pinch, you will not feel. Both things are the same, is it not? But here you feel, here you do not feel. So matter means where there is less feeling, and life means where there is acute feeling. That is meaning.
Prabhupāda: By logic, by science. Anyway, that we have to make program. Because this is most misleading. The whole human society is affected by this misleading theory. We have to make program, go from place to place and invite all big men, all scientists. That program we have to make. We cannot allow this nonsense theory to go on. We must make something. Brahmānanda, how to make this? This is a fact, that, that life comes from life. In another sense life does not come. Life is existing. It is not exactly the word that life generates, no. Life is existing. The matter is generated. Matter is generating, and it stays for some time, again it is vanished. Just like this body. This body is born at a certain date, and it will be finished at a certain date. This is matter. (break) The wood was born at a certain date from the tree. It remains green for certain time. Then it is not green, dry. Then, after some time, it will be finished. Matter is not permanent. Matter is changing. Ṣaḍ-vikāra. Six kinds of changes, matter. Birth, then growing... Matter grows also. Just like the body has grown. It was very small, pea-like body in the beginning, and it grows. So birth, growth, maintenance for some time, then by-product. There are some by-products. And then dwindling, then finished. This is matter. But life has no such change. When the life is within the matter, it appears that it is taking birth or death. Life will come. One phase of this change, accept. And when it cannot be maintained anymore, just like this body, when it is too old it cannot maintain. Just like dress. When it is too old we change. So these things are there. The matter is... Life is existing. Life has no change. The change is outward, material thing. In all respects we have to prove that life does not come from matter. Matter generates from life, stays for some time, and it is finished. Again begins another chapter.
Brahmānanda: The Republicans.
Prabhupāda: Oh, Republicans. Who is in power now?
Brahmānanda: Well, Nixon. He is Republican.
Prabhupāda: He is Republican.
Brahmānanda: They haven't traced it to him yet, but all his chief aides, they have all been implicated. It was during the election.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So therefore they are defeated.
Brahmānanda: Yeah. They knew what the Democrats were doing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This position is at the present moment, no honest man can become a government officer, everywhere. Unless he is a rogue, dishonest person, he cannot maintain his governmental position. Therefore no noble man is going to the government. But what you can do?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Politicians are the greatest cheaters.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Scoundrel. Some philosopher said that "Politics is the last place of the scoundrel. That is their last resort." In India we see same thing. Harer nāma, harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). So design some means how to fight with these... (end)
Prabhupāda: He has written a big philosophy on sex life. Does it require any education? Anyone knows how to use sex life. And he has written big book. Similarly, defense also: they are making big, big arrangements, atomic bomb. I am making atomic bomb, you are making... Similarly, sleeping: big, big skyscraper building; eating: start thousands of slaughterhouse. Formerly also there were meat-eaters. But did they maintain slaughterhouse? "All right, I want to eat meat. Just go in the forest. Kill one animal. That's all. Pick it up." So this advancement of civilization means advancement of slaughterhouse, advancement of skyscraper building, advancement of atom bomb, advancement of Freud philosophy. This is advancement. The subject matter is the same, which does not require any education. Nobody requires education on this subject matter. Even the birds and beasts, they know what is their eatable. And they eat and they live. Now the advancement... Agricultural institute, a big college, how to improve agriculture. Crude people, they are producing also. Without agricultural college, they are producing sufficiently grain and eating. Still they do so. Do they depend on agricultural education? Real education is how to solve the problems of life, birth, death, old age, and how to go back to home, back to... That is education. This is not education. This is simply waste of time. Because you cannot change your destiny. Now, take for example, there are so many agricultural improvements. Does it mean that there is no person who is needy? There are so many needy persons. But has the agricultural education improved their lot? No. Starving people are still there. Rather, those who can produce, they're producing and throwing into the sea.
Buddhist Monk (1): No mass slaughters, no mass slaughters.
Prabhupāda: No. This is from the western world. This is very nice argument, that in the jungle there are carnivorous animals, but they don't maintain slaughterhouse. Neither they attack unless they are hungry. Otherwise, in Africa, there is national...
Haṁsadūta: Park.
Prabhupāda: All the animals are freely rotating.
Buddhist Monk (1): Or they think their life is in danger.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Buddhist Monk (1): If one radiates love and kindness...
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Defense is allowed to everyone. You must defend. That is another thing. But ordinarily, not that because a lion has got jaws and teeth, therefore he's simply jumping over. Not like that. Even people have experienced that when the, these ferocious animals, they are not hungry, they don't attack. They don't attack.
Haṁsadūta: They don't bother.
Prabhupāda: No. Or if you keep a pet lion, give him sumptuously to eat, he'll not... That is experienced. I have seen in the World Fair in, in... One man was keeping a lion and a tiger, and playing just like with dog. Just like sometimes dogs, they pounce over the master. Same thing. They were doing like that. I have seen it. They have tamed the lion and tiger like that.
Śyāmasundara: By unanimous opinion, by unanimous pursuit of some goal, that becomes the common goal.
Paramahaṁsa: Fashion. Fashion?
Prabhupāda: No, therefore I say...
Malcolm: No, no. Number... I know, I... That when a number of people become beyond a certain size, that in order for that size to maintain, there becomes a code of written law whose existence is to preserve the number, and it becomes the goal of the people, and it is the goal of number and not of the people. And the people I see...
Prabhupāda: The people are numberless. Therefore the goal should be numberless? People are numberless. We cannot count. It is not possible. Therefore the goal should be also numberless?
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us that actually the amount of people in the world has nothing to do with the form of education. Simply the... For example, if everyone in the world was Kṛṣṇa conscious, then where would there be a question of overpopulation? Because there would be harmony throughout society because the center of the society would be Kṛṣṇa. But unfortunately, due to the overpopulation, we have so many different goals, different interests, and therefore there's continual clash. So there's nothing against overpopulation as long as people are raised in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Reporter: Yes. Only way is to sannyāsa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not sannyāsī business. For starting school the government is there, public is there. Why you... That means brahma satyam you could not understand; you are coming to the school-starting. He could not perceive that brahma satyam. Although he tried to do it, but he could not understand. Therefore now he has to maintain himself, eh? So, people will not give him alms, so he must show that, "I'm starting this school, I'm starting this hospital, I'm doing this, give me some candana." "Give me some subscription," and taking subscription and become fat, that's all. This is going on. If brahma..., jagat is mithyā, why you are coming again to this mithyā platform?
Reporter: Yes, yes. So detachment is there.
Prabhupāda: Detachment, that is required.
Reporter: Anāsakta.
Prabhupāda: Yes, detachment and jñāna. Jñāna-vairāgya.
Reporter: Hm. The jñāna-vairāgya.
Prabhupāda: This is the real achievement of human life, that jñāna-vairāgya can be achieved simply by bhakti-yoga. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7). Ah? Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti yo... Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Just like these boys.
Popworth: But the slaughterhouse becomes a temple of mercy given these conditions in which the animals are...
Haṁsadūta: Yes. As long as you maintain a slaughterhouse, then there'll be people to breed animals to supply to the house of slaughter.
Prabhupāda: It is nice.
Haṁsadūta: As soon as there's no more slaughterhouse, then the animals are free. They can go everywhere.
Popworth: I think you are avoiding the point.
Revatīnandana: No. It's the solution. If you want to stop that treatment of animals, you stop the slaughterhouse. Otherwise, first you keep them in the field to slaughter. That's already brute mentality. That brute mentality means next I think, "I could get more flesh if I didn't let this cow move. So let me keep him in a case, cage, in the dark so they have lighter meat." This is one stage of brute mentality to another stage of brute mentality. The next stage of brute mentality... They're already killing the unborn child. Now, next, the child is born. That's the next stage of brute mentality. That is predicted in the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Now, their theory is that when the child comes out of the womb, then he gets the soul. Is it not?
Revatīnandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Not within the womb.
Haṁsadūta: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: What kind of theory it is? For killing the child within the womb, they have discovered this theory.
Cardinal Danielou: But, why, why, why God make some animals who eat other animals? There is a fault in the creation because... It is a fault in the creation?
Prabhupāda: No. The God is very kind. If you want to eat animals, then He'll give facility, good facility. Just like tiger. You become tiger, and eat animals. Those who are animal eaters, unrestrictedly, God will give him the body of a tiger next life so that he can very freely eat. "Why you maintain slaughterhouse? I give you nails and jaws. Just eat." So they are waiting that life.
Yogeśvara: Is it clear?
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Well, (French). I am very joyful to, to speak, to speak with you. And I offer, if I can, tomorrow go to the, to visit the Temple. Yes, yes. I hope I can tomorrow.
Yogeśvara: (French) (end)
Bhagavān: We can, we can write them, make that correction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Write immediately. One must know that I am not this body. That is knowledge. That is knower. That is common sense. I say: "It is my body." I don't say: "I body." That I explained. One who does, one who knows that "I am not this body," he's real knower. And one who knows that: "I am this body," he does not know. He's in ignorance. Just like Danielou.
Yogeśvara: A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he can maintain his position in family, government, business, anything.
Prabhupāda: Why not? All these Pāṇḍavas, they were government men. How they maintained Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja... They were fighting for political reasons. So they were Kṛṣṇa conscious, fully. (break) ...who identifies with this body, he's described as cow or ass. How he can be knower? It is wrongly edited. The word: "Not". It was edited by whom? Hayagrīva?
Haṁsadūta: Hayagrīva.
Bhagavān: Jayādvaita.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Haṁsadūta: Hayagrīva also...
Bhagavān: Hayagrīva and Jayādvaita.
Prabhupāda: This should be corrected immediately.
Prabhupāda: Ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. In this way, as the heart becomes cleansed, he revives his quality of goodness. And when he's situated in the quality of goodness, the other two qualities, passion and ignorance, cannot infect him. By this process. Rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. The example is kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. When one is too much affected with the rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa, passion and ignorance... What is this kāma? Lusty and greediness. These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-guṇa. So then therefore we see that all people are lusty and greedy. So as soon as he becomes cleansed, come to the standard of goodness, these two qualities cannot affect him anymore. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). One has to take the process. And it is simple process. Simple... And that, that is actually happening, in our practical experience. They say, they say... They are all rascals, fools. They can say anything and everything. Pāgale kim abole chāgale kiṁ na khāoyā. In the Bengali it is said: A madman, what does he not speak? He speaks any nonsense. And a goat, what does he not eat? So if you keep a madman... They are keeping them mad... That is our protest, that why you are keeping all people mad, crazy, nonsense? And you are also teacher, university? They have no knowledge that what is the aim of life. That you have to protest. So as we gradually increase our strength, our number, we have to protest to the world that: "Why you rascal and fools, keeping the whole human society in darkness? You have no knowledge." Here God says that: 'Under My direction the prakṛti's working.' You have no knowledge. You are saying that there is no aim. Without aim, why God should create this, such a big gigantic manifestation. Why He should take responsibility? Is there no responsibility to maintain this gigantic... God has got immense power. He can maintain. That is another thing. But why He should take the responsibility? Just like government creates a big prison house. It is not for nothing. There is some aim. Otherwise, why government should keep such establishment, huge establishment? It is not something faith(?). They are to be given cloth and shelter and everything, the arrangement. Similarly such gigantic universal manifestation, millions and millions of living entities are there.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: Let me think of one, yes, one that I asked which I know Mukunda has already answered for me, but we need it in the teachers' pack, of course, is the fact of the dating of the Vedas. You know, people like some of the archaeologists such as A.L. Basham and Mortimer Wheeler maintain that the Harrapa dig, so to speak, in the Indus Valley and Mahenjo-Daro and all those towns, show the dating of the Vedas in fact to be a great deal later, you know, and therefore to take away, some people would say this, to deprive the Vedas of a certain amount of authority because they no longer, according to these men, would appear to be the most ancient religious scriptures in the world. And that, that sort of question, which...
Prabhupāda: Veda means not religion, Veda means knowledge. So if you can trace out the history of knowledge, then you can trace out what is the date of Veda. Can you trace out? When...? Which is the date when knowledge began. Can you trace out?
David Lawrence: I wouldn't think they could.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
David Lawrence: I wouldn't think they could.
Prabhupāda: So how you can trace out the history of Vedas? Vedas means knowledge. Vedas means knowledge. So first of all find out from which date knowledge began. Then you find out the date of the Vedas.
Ambassador: It's the Rāma-rājya ideal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Strong government means that, that government should be very, very vigilant that citizens are doing their duty properly. That is the first duty. They should be given all protection. At the same time... Just like the father gives protection to the children, at the same time, very strict that they are morally and disciplinary, they are going, coming out nice. That is father's duty. It is government's duty. If the father thinks, "Let my son go to hell. I don't care. I give them some food. That's all." Is that father's duty? No. Father's duty, to arrange for their food, for their dress, for their shelter, at the same time, to see that they are growing nice, not rascals. That is father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that. We see from Vedic śāstra government duty is that. Otherwise why there is need of government? Government... Now it is government. But formerly it was the king. The king must be representative of God. Because... Who is God? God means nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kaṭhopaniṣad. So God, what is God? God means He's also person. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. He is also eternal, He's also cognizant. We are also eternal, we are also cognizant. But what is the difference between God and we? The difference is He maintains us. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Bahu-vacanam, nityānām, cetanānām, this is bahu-vacanam. And nityaḥ, cetanaḥ, eka-vacanam. So what is the difference between this singular number and plural number? The singular number is maintaining the plural number. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. So God is maintaining everyone. So difference is that He is so powerful, He can maintain every living entity. He's maintaining the elephants in Africa, who eat, at a time, forty kilos. He's supplying food. There's no scarcity of food in the jungle for the elephants. Neither there is scarcity... In the hole of your room, you'll find hundreds and thousands of ui. Who is feeding them, within the hole? Unless they're eating, sleeping, the same thing are there. How they are living very nicely? But who is giving them food within the hole? A small hole.
Ambassador: (laughing) I belong to vegetarian family. I eat meat now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, in Madras, I have seen...
Ambassador: Most of them...
Prabhupāda: Mostly they are vegetarian, strictly vegetarian. Actually, in Southern India, they maintain the Hindu culture. You'll find big high-court judges, they have got tilaka.
Ambassador: That's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Strictly in Rāmānuja sampradāya, or Śaiva sampradāya they have got... Strictly taking bath and tilaka. In New Delhi, you'll find so many Madrasi gentlemen, big, big, high officers, they're strictly following Hindu principles.
Ambassador: You'll be surpri...
Prabhupāda: And still, if I am correct, in Madras, they, there, there is not many Mohammedans. The Mohammedan culture could not enter...
Ambassador: That's very true.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. One thing I can request you, that you give us, some of, some of our men, going to India, missionary visa.
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that they can stay there. Because we have now four, five temples. And I require their assistance. To maintain.
Ambassador: In India.
Prabhupāda: In India. So if you kindly give some of our men the missionary visa, it will be very kind of you. It is missionary.
Ambassador: I'll immediately write and find out because it is a very logical thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ambassador: Because we give them to other religions.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not this? So if you kindly help in this way. That is within your power.
Ambassador: I'll simply write. Of course.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there is no use of writing. You can do it. We can immediately submit some of the names. And you can give us.
Guest (1): But what should be the first step to become a devotee.
Prabhupāda: Yes, dadāti. That I have already explained. Dadāti. He must give. Give. Everyone goes to God to beg, "God, give us our daily bread." But one must go to God to give Him. If I do not give bread to Kṛṣṇa, he will be starving. This is devotee's mentality. Yaśodāmāyī, Yaśodāmāyī is thinking, Kṛṣṇa, "If I do not feed Kṛṣṇa well, my child will die." This is devotion. Otherwise everyone is asking from Kṛṣṇa. But Yaśodā-mā is thinking that "If I do not maintain Kṛṣṇa properly, He will die." Therefore he (she) is always trying to supply everything, mākhana, miśri. So real love begins when you try to give God. Everyone is trying to take from God, "Oh father, give us our daily bread." This is not pure devotee. This is good because he has approached God, but this is not devotion. It is not devotion, it is..., means business "God, give me something, then I will love you." Is it not?
Guest (1): But giving means, you know, giving part of what you earn, or some other way. When you say give...
Prabhupāda: Give means, you want to take something from God. "God, give me wealth, give me fame" Yaśo dehi.
Prabhupāda: Unless she become atheist how you can stay in that post? She must be atheist. Or she may not be atheist, but for political reasons she must become atheist. Otherwise she cannot maintain her post. All these politicians, they are simply duplicity. Actually they are something else, but in political post they must show themselves as something else. This is politics.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When Nehru said that all factories, chemical factories and these iron factories are our temples, these are our temples.
Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru was a big atheist too, he openly declared.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he was first-class atheist. Now he has become a dog. Yes, some astrologer has said. He has become a dog in Sweden. A man has got two dogs. Out of the two he is one.
Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is quite believable.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes Prabhupāda, it's a fact.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does he know that is...?
Yaśomatīnandana: It's fortunate to become a dog.
Prabhupāda: Ha? The astrologers, they sometimes approached. Ah, what is the position of this man, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Gandhi? And they say something. So he has said about Nehru like this. Astrologer, he was hesitating, then he said. It was spoken by one very respectable person, Śrīdhara Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: That we shall give in the court. "First of all this man is declaring himself as God, cheating. Why he should not be stopped?" Let there be case. This should be done.
Yaśomatīnandana: Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. If the constitution is that, that in the name of religion somebody cheats, the government should take action, so here it is being done. So we have to maintain so many departments to fight with these wrongdoers. Why not make a test case that "This man is declaring himself God. How he is God? Let him prove in the court." Why not institute a case?
Umāpati: Actually, the people feel helpless. They feel there is nothing they can do anyway, about anything. That's why they are engaging so much in intoxication. They feel hopeless under this government.
Prabhupāda: That is the defect, that the government itself is imperfect. How they can check?
Umāpati: Well, they're so foolish. There was an article in the paper the other day about this shot going to Jupiter and the scientists were described, the scientists that everybody is supposed to depend upon, they were described as biting their fingernails in the hopes that everything would come out all right.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Yaśomatīnandana: They said that they were simply taking chances that it might come out all right. They were not sure themselves.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. You become God. But our point is there is need of God.
Karandhara: Well, on that basis, on that logic they would say, "Yes, there is need, but we can fill that need."
Prabhupāda: You fill, that's all right, but if you cannot... That is the question. (laughter) Our definition of God is that He maintains everyone. Can you maintain everyone?
Karandhara: They are thinking they are maintaining.
Prabhupāda: They again thinking. What is your present position? You are maintained. You cannot maintain. You are maintained by your boss. He gives you some salary and you fill up your bellies. You rascal, you want to be maintainer. You cannot maintain even a family of five heads. Therefore we say, all full of rascals. Harāv abhaktasya kuto... That is our śāstric conclusion. Anyone who is atheist, nondevotee, he is a rascal number one. Bās. It doesn't matter what post he holds. Our conclusion is that he is a rascal number one. That's all. He cannot have any good qualification. There is need of God. Who will maintain? Just like children. They require care of the parents. The people require the care of a head man, executive. This is essential. You cannot do without God. Who is maintaining that the moon is exactly in time rising, exactly in time setting?
Devotee: Only God.
Devotee: No.
Prabhupāda: So because you are not God conscious you are doing all this nonsense. You do not know who is father. Therefore you cut throat, your brother. (break) ...that those who are eating vegetables, they are also killing. That's a fact. But God says that "You can eat this." God says... By nature... Just like the animal. They will eat these leaves, the grass. Nature. But they will not eat meat. Tena tyaktena. Whatever God dictates, "Now you eat this," He is eating. But you give him meat. No, he will not take it. So whatever you are allotted, you should eat. That is God's law, that after all, one has to eat. So what you will eat? Everything is living. Therefore allotted. You are allotted, "These things is allotted for you. You eat." We God conscious people therefore eat... Without going into the details, we eat anything what God eats. That's all. There is no question of discriminating what we shall eat. We eat prasādam. That's all. So we are safe.
Devotee: They will say that Jesus Christ ate meat.
Prabhupāda: All right, Jesus Christ took meat, but Jesus Christ never said that you maintain slaughterhouse. Is there any Bible, anything?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupāda: Then you eat meat. All right. You kill and meat. Why you are maintaining slaughterhouse? Is that Jesus Christ's instruction, rascal? Thousands of slaughterhouse you are maintaining under the order of Jesus Christ? So they are rascals. You eat meat, all right. Jesus Christ, meat... Of course, once, twice he might have because he was a... (end)
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Guru dāsa: Somewhat influential, but.... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...that, but now from Rādhā-Dāmodara Temple we cannot take anything.
Guru dāsa: No.
Prabhupāda: So how he will maintain?
Guru dāsa: I don't know. He must have some money.
Prabhupāda: And what Panchu is doing?
Guru dāsa: Panchu I have not seen, because I have been here mostly, on the construction site. I don't go so much.
Prabhupāda: How he has left for some service.
Guru dāsa: Maybe. I can inquire.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no... Why you should go? Let them do their own work.
Guru dāsa: Yes.
Devotee: I can sweep over here?
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Why not?
Guru dāsa: Next month is again rental, rent time. I paid him six months in advance previously. So it would go to February. Because I knew that the Śaivite was changing, so I wanted to do like that. Next month is again, March 1st, payment...
Prabhupāda: But whenever you give money, you must take receipt in this printed.
Prabhupāda: Nārakī.
Nitāi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Arcye viṣṇau... (break) ...when it will teach military art, with tilaka, soldiers will, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa..." (laughter) We want that. Marching with military band, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." You maintain this idea. Is it not good?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: When there will be military march of Kṛṣṇa conscious soldiers. Anyone who does not believe in Kṛṣṇa, "Blam!" (laughter) Yes. The same process as the Mohammedans did, with sword and Koran, we'll have to do that. "Do you believe in Kṛṣṇa or not?" "No, sir." "Blam!" Finished. (laughter, Prabhupāda laughs) What do you think, Madhudviṣa Mahārāja? Is that all right?
Madhudviṣa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) What these communists can do? We can do better than them. We can kill many communists like that. (laughter) Then it will be counteraction of communist movement. And you think like that. "Why you are sitting idly, no employment? Come on to the field! Take this plow! Take this bull. Go on working. Why you are sitting idly?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nobody should be allowed to sit down and sleep. They must find out some employment, either work as brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or as a vaiśya. Why there should be unemployment? The same example. Just like I am, this body is working. The leg is working, hand is working, brain is working, belly is working. Why there should be unemployment? You just stop this unemployment, you will see the whole world is peaceful. There is no complaint. And they'll very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hm? Nobody's working in this field. They're all drawn to the cities to work in the factory. Condemned civilization. That communist emblem, what is that?
Dr. Patel: When He had this rāsa dance, he was only seven years.
Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, actually, He had sixteen thousand wives when He was in Dvaraka, but these rascals say, "Rural boy." "Rural boy" means when He was in Vṛndāvana. So he does not know even the history, and he is trying to write about Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. And that is the proof. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives. That is the proof that He is God, because you cannot maintain even one wife at the present moment. So He maintained sixteen thousand wives. That is the proof that He is God. That is the proof. But they will not take that side. They will take in other way, "Oh, this is all stories and fictitious." That's all. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). They do not know. They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa, and they try to write upon Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. "Kṛṣṇa was an avatāra. Therefore I am also avatāra." These things are not very good.
Prabhupāda: He have to accept so much dowry, how many thousands horses?
Girirāja: Fifteen thousand.
Prabhupāda: So who will take dowry like this? (laughing) And how many? Four hundred elephants. Who can maintain four hundred elephants? Nowadays horses and elephants are not selling because nobody can maintain. Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: Only the zoos.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...animal-eaters, later on, they will not find animals to eat. They will eat themselves. Because animals are not being maintained, they may be, according to Darwin's theory, extinct.
Satsvarūpa: In the US and everywhere they maintain them just for slaughter. So will that dwindle out?
Prabhupāda: Yes, slaughtering, slaughtering. When there will be no more, where this question of slaughtering?
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. When there are no more animals, where will reproduce?
Prabhupāda: They maintain elephant also for slaughtering?
Satsvarūpa: No.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...Mahārāja. This is kṣatriya king. Who has got so many cows to distribute? They cannot maintain even one cow. He is handed it over to the slaughterhouse. This is our position.
Śrīdhara: "He not only gave cows in charity, but hills of grain, decorated with golden bordered garments and many ornaments."
Prabhupāda: Anna-vastra, anna-vastra-dhana. Charity means to give in charity anna and vastra and cows. (break) ...give in charity some paper, one hundred rupees. (laughs) Another cheating. And he is also satisfied, "One hundred rupees." What is this one hundred? It is a paper, a piece of paper. (break) ...earned, black market, white market. Because when one does business, he has to do it, but it should be purified. I have seen the Marwaris, they do that. Although when earning money, they don't care, they do anything, but they give in charity. (break) ...purify the body by taking bath, similarly, the wealth is purified by the charity process, giving it to the brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī. He accumulated much wealth. He brought in a big boat, all gold coins. So... So he distributed fifty percent to the brāhmaṇa and Vaiṣṇava and twenty-five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his personal emergency. This is example shown by Rūpa Gosvāmī. (break) Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). So where is that vaiśya, giving protection to the cows? Although they were village men, they were very rich. That is the old Vedic civilization. Now you go to the village—all poor. The cows are skinny, people have no home, no nice cloth. This is the position. And we are still advanced, advanced. They are proud of "advanced." And here is the... Just hear the description of the village, with cows only. So how much fallen we have become, we can just imagine.
Makhanlal: What's the explanation then? They are slaughtering more cows in the United States, but there is still more fortunate situation there materially.
Prabhupāda: No, that is now dwindling. The hippies are coming out. So one day it will be finished. One day it will be finished. That... It has already begun. The future hope is now becoming hippies. So who will manage this? It is already there is a problem how to maintain the industry, how to... This has become a problem. So naturally, when the, there will be all hippies, not to work, then everything collapses. The so-called prosperity will be finished. (break) Nobody is working sincerely. Here also in India, all government servants, they do not work. The manager of the government coal company said that "The workers in the mine, they are not working. Therefore we have to increase the price." So now, everything dependent on one another, so if one side there is noncooperation, the whole thing will collapse. (break) ...college they don't work. One thing is that draft board chasing all young men. (end)
Prabhupāda: (break) ...social divisions. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The other varṇas, they would give simply to the brāhmaṇas charity. And the brāhmaṇas were so advanced that simply by their blessing, they will get all benefit. So there must be a class of men who can actually benefit simply by blessing and the society must maintain them. This is real society. And everyone is śūdra, engaged in technology—then what benefit you will get? Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. There must be a brahminical class, a kṣatriya class, a vaiśya class, a śūdra class. Not that all śūdras. Then what will be going on? That is the condition. Everyone is being educated as śūdra. Then what benefit you will get? That is the defect. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Therefore there must be a brahminical class.
Dr. Patel: When his son becomes a Lord of Chelmsford and...
Prabhupāda: Yes, continues, continues. It is... What is called? They create aristocratic family. One has to deposit certain amount of money to the government and then the family...
Indian Man: Gets the title.
Prabhupāda: Gets the title "Lord." And to maintain their prestige the government supplies the interest of the money. And the first son becomes the inheritor. So in this way the Lord family continues. (break)
Girirāja: "...in the three qualities of material nature."
Prabhupāda: Therefore a man in any quality—it doesn't matter whether he is in goodness or passion or ignorance—anyone can worship Kṛṣṇa. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). So there is no restriction. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra... (SB 2.4.18). Anyone is open to worship Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is open for everyone.
Dr. Patel: This scene and all those things showed to Brahmā was to teach him a sort of lesson to take out his ego from him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was the purpose. It was not that Brahmā was degraded, but Kṛṣṇa is merciful upon Brahmā and Indra. Hm. Go on.
Dr. Patel: And the widow with all her virtues.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...days greatest politician. Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca. So our present head of the state is both woman and diplomat. That's all. (break)
Girirāja: "...pursuit of human culture are not possible. The government, by being weak and impotent, has thus failed to maintain the standard of civilized culture."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. Simply rogues. They want money. That's all. They do not want anything.
Dr. Patel: I think Rāma-rājya was the real democracy.
Prabhupāda: Rāma-rājya was not democracy.
Dr. Patel: No, it was a sort of democracy because it happened that his wife, on seeing ordinary menials...
Prabhupāda: Why king should be under any criticism? (breaks) There is a jalebi seller. He is the medium of bribing police. He has got ten lakhs of rupees, ordinary jalebi seller.
Mahāṁśa: Now we open the placement to your questions.
Prabhupāda: Yes, upon this, what I have already stated, you can...
Guest (1): Since you are following Bhagavad-gītā, do you believe in dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy?
Prabhupāda: Well, first of all try to understand what is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Then you try to understand the philosophy. It is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti parjanyāt. So there is no need of dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. You require anna to maintain the animals and living men. Practically. Dvaita philosophy and advaita philosophy, this is controversial. But even though we agree to dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy, the question of food grain will be required, either you become dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy.
Guest (1): What I mean to say is do you believe that the soul and God is one as Rāmānuja and Śaṅkarācārya says, or as Madhvācārya says...
Prabhupāda: We are speaking from the Bhagavad-gītā as it is. What Śaṅkarācārya says, what Rāmānujācārya says, that we shall consider there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Bhagavān says in the Bhagavad-gītā that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So dehinaḥ means the possessor of the body, the owner of the body. That is the soul. So that you cannot deny, either you follow Śaṅkarācārya or Rāmānujācārya. There is soul within the body. This is Bhagavad-gītā says. Dehino 'smin, asmin dehe. Just like I was a child, I remember; you remember also. So that body is now gone. But I have got a different body, you have got a different body. But I am existing. So I am dehinaḥ, dehī, and my body is deha. So deha-dehī, there must be distinction. The body is not the owner. I am the owner. Just like I am sitting within this room, I am not this room; similarly, I am sitting within this body, you are sitting within your body. So you are not body. This is call illusion.
Prabhupāda: Well, people are now shameless, you see? They are being kicked in so many ways. We are giving the prescription, "Here is the remedy," but they are not taking to it. But they will take it. Some of them will take it, provided you remain also ideal. If you become also degraded, then who will take it? Ideal character, ideal behavior, ideal preaching. People will appreciate. (break) ...pure character or position, people will take, in any condition. There may be revolution or no revolution. They will take it. (break) ...that our movement is actually good. They will take in any condition. That standard we must maintain. Somebody... Yes, Balavanta, when he was speaking against smoking, one candidate—he was important man—he was smoking. Immediately he wanted to hide. (laughter) So immediate effect was there. He understood that "Yes, this is bad habit." So people will take it, any condition, provided you are ideal. Āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. He teaches others by behaving Himself. "Example is better than precept." If you cannot rise early in the morning, then how can you ask others to rise early in the morning? What is the effect? There is no effect. We have got business early in the morning, to attend maṅgala ārati. And if you sleep yourself and teach others, so who will take it? (break) ...we have introduced.
Minister: No, it is proposed to.
Prabhupāda: Temple... Just like these Christian missionaries, they constructed so many churches. But those churches are now being closed. In London, I have got specific knowledge, hundreds of churches are no more being used as church. Some of them are being used as go-down. And some of the churches have been purchased by other religious sect. We have purchased one church in Los Angeles. So opening temple is good but who will maintain the spirit of temple worship?
Minister: That is by (Hindi).
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Therefore there must be side by side propaganda who can maintain the temples. (Hindi) Oh, this is anna-prasāda, so I will take later on. (Hindi) That temple is being constructed under whose supervision?
Minister: That Ganapati Sthapati, in our state.
Indian man: Sthapati is a temple engineer. He will lay out the plans as per the (indistinct) śāstra and as per the rules laid down for the construction all temples in India. No other (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: He has gone there? No.
Indian man: Once he had been to New York. They are now preparing all these idols, etc. They will be sent by sea.
Prabhupāda: So what Deity will be installed there?
Indian man: Lord Veṅkaṭeśvara, Subrahmaṇiya-sat(?) Swami, Gaṇapati, Vighneśvara.
Minister: And Pancai Tattva.
Prabhupāda: Everyone... Even government... In the parliament the question was raised, "Wherefrom they get money fabulously?" These men, in our country, they may be fools. In your country also, Los Angeles, I mean, neighboring storekeepers, they are wonderful, that "These people do not work and they have got so many cars and live so nicely?" (laughing) They inquire that "How do we get all these things?" They actually see that they are not ordinary working. They have no working or bank balance or business. Still, they have got so many cars and they eat nicely and they maintain such a nice house. And six, seven house they have purchasing. The realtors, they also know in America that we are very rich men. As soon as there is some property, they offer, because they know that we are very rich men. Because we have purchased some properties, so all the realtors, they have taken it for granted that we have got immense money. Here also, the members are thinking like that, that "Swamiji has got immense money."
Mahāṁsa: Yes. And he will send when we want.
Prabhupāda: He will pay. You can tell them that "Not a single farthing here. He can spend elsewhere. If you don't pay for the temple, then we shall go on like this. But as he has promised one lakh of rupees, that he will pay. That's all." Others, you have to collect here. That one lakh is promised. That will be paid.
Satsvarūpa: So there is no benefit to suffering unless it is connected with Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When Kṛṣṇa... Therefore we shall fully surrender to Kṛṣṇa. As Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, mārobi rākhobi yo icchā tohārā: "Now I surrender. Now if you want to maintain me, that is all right, and if You want to kill me, that is also all right." This is surrender. It is not business, "If You maintain me, then I surrender. If You kill me, then I do not." It is not like that. Mārobi rākhobi yo icchā tanhārā. "As You like. If You want to maintain, that is also good; if You want to kill, that is also good." This is devotee's view.
Satsvarūpa: Someone might say, "But if one is surrendered why should Kṛṣṇa give him trouble?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is because he is always free. Why do you make Kṛṣṇa dependent on your so-called goodwill, that "Kṛṣṇa must give me always pleasure"? This is sense gratification. This is sense gratification that you approach Kṛṣṇa for your comfort, sense gratification. That is not bhakti. That is sense gratification. Prahlāda Mahārāja was given suffering by his father so harshly, but he never said, "Oh, I am devotee and Kṛṣṇa giving me so much trouble? Oh! Give it up." He never said that. Neither he asked Kṛṣṇa to come and save him. That is Kṛṣṇa-bhakti. The Pāṇḍavas. The Pāṇḍavas, they were always with Kṛṣṇa and they were suffering. They never asked Kṛṣṇa that "You are the Supreme, and why we are suffering?" Never said. Never said. That is Kṛṣṇa-bhakti.
Prabhupāda: There is another gośala, they are not utilizing, Panchar(?) Gośala. Why don't you try for that? They can give it free, that we shall... "Give us it, we shall utilize it for Kṛṣṇa."
Gurudāsa: We can try.
Prabhupāda: Find out who is Panchar(?). "If we do not use for gośala, then you can take it back. But we shall utilize it for gośala. So why don't you give us the land?" Attached to the temple, we maintain a gośala.
Gurudāsa: That's nice.
Prabhupāda: Still we shall require to grow some food for the cows and nice water supply. Then you simply keep the cows there. They will eat and drink and remain here peacefully. Only one room for watching(?).
Indian man: (indistinct), he was complaining when I have last time... (break)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Indian man: I think he had given him the books for distribution. He is distributing them.
Prabhupāda: But he was to give one house and so many things, then he was to distribute them, whatever.
Bhagavān: It appears that by taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one becomes less materially benefitted.
Prabhupāda: That is the benefit they do not understand. Here the philosophy is to make nil material benefit. And that is sometimes havoc for others. Niṣkiñcanasya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says... (aside:) Don't bring near. Niṣkiñcanasya. Niṣkiñcana means... Kiñcana means something and niṣkiñcana means even no something. Kiñcana means something, to possess something, and niṣkiñcana means to possess nothing. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. Bhagavad-bhajana... So go back to home back to Godhead, is meant for such persons who has nothing to possess here. That is very difficult. Niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya pāraṁ paraṁ jigamiṣor bhava-sāgarasya. The real aim, real benefit, is how to be transferred to the other nature, spiritual nature. Pāraṁ param. They do not know that beyond the sky, there is spiritual sky, there is another nature. They have no information. Even they do not know what are there in higher planetary systems. They think, "Here everything is..." This is an insignificant planet in the whole creation, but their fund of knowledge so poor, they think this is the position. They are trying to maintain what was achieved.
Prabhupāda: Just hear me. But when you come to the form of human being, you should have discrimination. If you have no discrimination, simply you live like animal, then where is the difference? My only point is the lack of brain. Human being, he has been given by nature... They are also life, the fruits, the vegetables, the food grains, the milk, the sugar, they have got enough food value, and the human being should be satisfied within this group. Why they should maintain slaughterhouse, and do not think that they are not sinful, and still they want to be happy without caring for God? That is lack of brain.
C. Hennis: My organization is not directly concerned with giving people brains.
Prabhupāda: No, your organization may not be directly concerned, but the human society, if it is brainless, however organization you may make, it will never become happy. That is my point.
C. Hennis: It is concerned with taking away the obstacles which prevent people from attaining brain.
Yogeśvara: This is the obstacle.
Prabhupāda: No.
Bhagavān: They are actually just cannibals because they maintain themselves on eating the cow.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: They think it's so horrible to eat another person, but...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are suffering. Therefore you'll find, in the recent history, every twenty-five years there is a big war, slaughter, mass slaughtering of the people. How nature will tolerate? Now India has learned, imitated the western countries. Now there is war between India and Pakistan. Otherwise there was no such thing. During two wars between the Pakistan and Hindustan, unnecessarily, without any profit, millions of people were killed.
Karandhara: Just recently India exploded an atomic bomb, and now Pakistan is hurrying to get an atomic bomb also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on.
Guru-gaurāṅga: The government promised it would be only for peaceful purposes.
Prabhupāda: No, what do they know about peaceful conditions. They are all rascals. They do not know what is peaceful condition.
Prabhupāda: Very nice park.
Yogeśvara: In the ancient tribal system, there was some form of religiosity. There was some form of worship of God. The so-called modern civilization doesn't even maintain that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Their developed consciousness is being used for sense gratification. That's all. They have taken up, sense gratification is the highest aim of life. Hedonism. What is that hedonism?
Karandhara: Hedonism means to eat, sleep and be merry.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Yogeśvara: When I was in school, I read that when the British went to Africa to colonize, the first thing they did... In the north there was a tribe called the Ashanti tribe. And the symbol of religion was an axe. Whoever possessed that axe was a leader. So the first thing they did was to import thousands and thousands of axes and they distributed them to everyone. In this way, they destroyed the religious sentiment and then introduced their own system.
Prabhupāda: Who first started this colonization? Britishers or the Spaniards?
Yogeśvara: It was a Britisher.
Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā, because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajña. Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas... Because Vedas, animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantras. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras. So for that purpose, animal sacrifice... Just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals, frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily. So Buddha, Lord Buddha, his only mission was to stop the sinful activities of animal... Ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ. He was teaching that. But these rascals, they would show the evidence... Just like Christians says that "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish" or something like that. Because Lord Jesus Christ ate fish, therefore they should maintain slaughterhouse. This is their reasoning. The other day somebody questioned me that... I said that killing of animals is sinful activity. So somebody questioned that "Lord Jesus Christ ate fish," somewhere. So I said that He is powerful. He can eat the whole world. But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instructions, what he says. He said, 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should follow his instruction, not the action." He is powerful. He can act some way or other, according to circumstances. That is his business. Actually, that is the Vedic statement, that just like the sun, the sun can absorb the urine. People pass urine on the street, and the sunshine absorbs the urine, evaporates, but sun is still pure. Rather, the place where the urine was passed, it becomes disinfected. Similarly, those who are powerful, īśvara, godly, you cannot imitate their actions. They are apparently doing something wrong; still, they are pure. The same example. The sun is absorbing or evaporating the urine, but sun is still pure. But if I imitate and lick up the urine, that is not very good business. Similarly, we cannot imitate the powerful, we have to simply follow the instruction of the powerful. That is... But people, on slight imitation... Is that very good reason? Suppose Christ sometimes ate fish, but that is sufficient reason to maintain big, big slaughterhouse? Because Christ said... And he teached in the desert. Suppose there was no food and he had to eat some fish. So that is his business. He could do it. He is powerful. But does it mean on that strength throughout the whole world the Christians will maintain big, big, up-to-date machinery for slaughterhouse? So it is sinful. So Buddha wanted to stop this nonsense, who were eating and killing animals on the strength of Vedas. They did not know what is the meaning, but they would say in the Vedas it is stated, paśavo vadhyaḥ sṛṣṭaḥ: "The animals are created for being killed." And what purpose it is killed? They, without knowing... Actually, they wanted to satisfy their tongue by eating the flesh, but they would give Vedic evidences. So to stop this nonsense business Buddha said that "I don't care for your Vedas." Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam means Vedic injunction.
Prabhupāda: Certainly. These rascals, the priest, they do not guide them. They are also fallen. Otherwise, Christian religion is very nice. If they follow. So many times they asked me. "Yes, if you follow your Christian religion, you'll be perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu proved devotional service from Koran. Yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: The Khān Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it requires the devotee who can explain from any godly literature about God. How rascal they are! "Jesus Christ ate fish. Therefore we shall maintain big, big slaughterhouse." Just see the argument. Then, in the Bengali, mosa makta kanan (?). There was a mosquito, and one is asking, "Bring a cannon." "Bring a cannon." Mosa makta kanan. Jesus Christ ate somewhere. There was no food available to eat, might have. Accepting he ate, but that, does it mean that you have to maintain slaughterhouse? Just see. And besides that, he might have done anything. He's powerful. He can eat. Therefore the other day I said, "He can eat the whole world." But you cannot imitate. You have to follow his instruction. That is Christianity.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Many of the young people now, they look to the Bible for instruction, but they don't like to go to church at all. They feel that the church is hypocritical.
Prabhupāda: Hypocritical, simply hypocritical. All these priests and cardinals and popes, they're all hypocritical. Getting high, highly salaried, high salaries, and drinking wine. And in America there is a hospital, five thousand drunkard priests are admitted there to cure their drinking habit. That was published in a paper. And they're sanctioning man to man marriage. That was published in that, what is that? Watch?
Satsvarūpa: Watchtower?
Prabhupāda: Watchtower. Yes.
Prabhupāda: So why they want to avoid war? What is the reason?
Bhagavān: For avoiding war?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: They want to maintain their pleasure.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Why encroach upon others' pleasure? Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam (ISO 1). Īśopaniṣad says, "Don't encroach upon others' pleasure."
Bhagavān: Because they have no spiritual idea or spiritual pleasure, they can never be satisfied. So they're always envious.
Prabhupāda: So there is no coconut tree, mango tree, banana tree. Huh? These are all useless tree, simply for becoming fuel. That's all. They're also condemned. Yes. Sinful trees. There are pious trees and sinful trees. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) We have to go straight? (pause) This park is bigger than that Golden Gate Park?
Bhagavān: Oh yeah.
Prabhupāda: Eh? (pause)
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa says that "One who is always active within is very dear to Me." Does this mean we should struggle to keep our minds engaged all the time in Kṛṣṇa's service.
Prabhupāda: Active within? Active within?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "Active within."
Yogeśvara: There'll be even more cows.
Prabhupāda: More cows. Yes. They'll have more cows. Simply we request that "Don't..." You propagate this. "Don't kill, don't maintain the slaughterhouse." It's very sinful. It has got very awkward reaction on the society. Stop this slaughterhouse. We don't say that you stop eating meat. You eat meat, but don't take it from slaughterhouse. Or don't by killing. Simply wait, and you'll get the... How long the cow will live? Their maximum age is twenty years. So not that you have to wait for twenty years. There are many cows, eighteen years, sixteen years or ten years. So wait for that much time. Then you regularly get dead cows and eat. What is the wrong? You make this propaganda. You may, for few years, may not get. By that time, you can eat some dogs and cats. (laughter) Yes. The Koreans, they are using dogs. Where is the difference between you and the Korean? You can eat also dogs for the time being. Or hogs. You eat hogs. We don't prohibit killing of these small animals. We don't sanction, neither prohibit. But especially we request cow protection because it is ordered by Kṛṣṇa. Because we are Kṛṣṇa conscious people, therefore we have to carry out the order of Kṛṣṇa, go-rakṣya. That is our duty. And economically also, it is very useful. Kṛṣṇa has recommended for nothing, it is not like that. It has some meaning, that if you have got cows. You see. They're... Our cows in New Vrindaban, they're giving more milk than other cows. Because they are confident that they'll not be killed here. They have got sense. Not like that rascal, "They have no soul.
Prabhupāda: Oh, sandeśa. It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandeśa, you give him one more. So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparations, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk, we make hundreds of preparations. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh, everything, whatever he likes. Because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free. Without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it. So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pounds. One thousand pounds daily in our, one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparations from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our programs, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: But he does not believe in incarnation and he still, he is professor of Indology. (French)
Karandhara: He doesn't believe in the soul. Professor Kotovsky, he doesn't believe in the existence of soul.
Church Representative: But I think that he is a Marxist.
Karandhara: Yes. Or at least he has to appear as one to maintain his position. Prabhupāda's point is that...
Church Representative: There are many professor in Russia of religion, on the history of religion, but who don't believe in nothing.
Karandhara: That was Prabhupāda's point that it's ironic that in modern societies men are called professors, or being proficient in knowledge, but yet they're ignorant of the soul, which is the most basic knowledge, the most fundamental knowledge. According to the Vedic system, Indian system, even a most ignorant man knows about the soul, what to speak of the great learned sages. But in this society, western society, the so-called learned men—they're supposed to be the topmost learned men—they don't even know of the soul. Therefore they're not even in the class of an ignorant man. They're lower than even ignorance.
Prabhupāda: And according to Vedic understanding, one who does not understand what is soul—he identifies himself with this body—he is animal.
Yogeśvara: Now, one thing is that we accept Buddha as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa on reference from Vedas, but Buddha denied the value of the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: That is... When we pray, offer pray, it is stated that that is his, one of the qualifications. Sada... Nindasi. Nindasi yajña-vidher. The animal sacrifice is recommended... Some of the sacrifices or all of them... So that animal sacrifice was not meant for eating. Just to give them new, rejuvenated life by the Vedic mantras, to test that whether Vedic mantras are being chanted properly. And because at the Kali-yuga there is no such expert brāhmaṇa, all sacrifices are forbidden. So later on, as they deteriorated, they began to offer sacrifices, and if anyone wants to stop it, they will say, "Oh, it is recommended in the Vedas." Just like these rascals, Christian: "Oh, Christ ate fish. Therefore we must maintain slaughterhouse." Just see how rascal they are. Supposing Christ ate somewhere fish. Therefore they would maintain regularly slaughterhouse of cows. This is their brain.
Professor Durckheim: For eating vegetables, for instance, you need it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the law of nature, that every living being is eating another living being. That is stated in the Vedic śāstra.
- ahastāni sahastānām
- apadāni catuṣ-padām
- phalgūni tatra mahatāṁ
- jīvo jīvasya jīvanam
That "Those who have no hands—that means animals—they are food for the animal who has got hands. And those who have no legs, they are food for the four-legged." Just like grass has no legs, but it is a food fo the cows and the goats. Apadāni catuṣ-padām, phalgūni tatra mahatām: "Then one who is powerful, very powerful..." Just like tiger, he jumps over another animal. So because the other animal is weak and this animal is strong, so in this way, the feeding is going on, one living being for the other. But when you come to the... That is nature. The tiger will never eat grass. But we human being, we eat grass, goat, cows and everything. Because advanced, so-called advanced. But our foodstuff is to accept the remnants of foodstuff which is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Just like in this temple, we don't eat anything. Neither we eat grass, neither we eat animals. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasāda. So Kṛṣṇa says that "You give Me these foodstuffs." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we are not eating on the material platform. We are eating on the spiritual platform. Because we are eating, if there is anything sinful, that is Kṛṣṇa's. We are taking His remnants of foodstuff. So this is our philosophy. We don't advocate vegetarianism or nonvegetarianism. We advocate, "Eat Kṛṣṇa's prasādam, the remnants of foodstuff which is offered to Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. And apart from this philosophy, because one living entity is food for another living entity, it does not mean that I shall eat my children also. There is discretion, that human being, they should offer these fruits, vegetables, milk as it is prescribed in the śāstra to God, Kṛṣṇa, and take. That is human civilization, not for the satisfaction of the tongue we have to maintain big, big slaughterhouse and eat them. No, that is not human civilization. The main business of the human society is to understand God, and as soon as he understands God, he understands that every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Then how we can eat? That because Kṛṣṇa eats, Kṛṣṇa allows, then we eat. So responsibility is Kṛṣṇa's. This is our philosophy.
Professor Durckheim: Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never, but you never asked us who we are and who we should become (indistinct)." This is the problem.
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul.
Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon.
Prabhupāda: You are spirit soul, not this body. That is the beginning of our talk. (German)
Vedavyāsa: He said that your answer that we are not this body, that we are spirit soul, it is not our real answer to our actual problem.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Vedavyāsa: He said that if you said that we are fleeing, fleeing from the actual problems which we have now...
Prabhupāda: Actual program, the actual program is there.
Prabhupāda: This is practical. The scientists have got good brain, but who manufactured the brain? You cannot do. You have not manufactured your brain. If you say, "By nature," then nature is more powerful than you. But nature is dead. It cannot create life. That is in the hand of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). As soon as the question of jīva, living entity, there, this, mine, you can say it is nature. And other things? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarva... (BG 3.27). Prakṛti, nature, is doing. Everything explained. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā: (Bs. 5.44) "There is an energy which can create, maintain, and destroy the whole cosmic manifestation." Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā (Bs. 5.44), one. There is one energy. Chāyeva yasya vibharti bhuvanāni durgā: "That energy is working just like shadow under the direction of Kṛṣṇa." That is big energy, but that energy... Just like atomic energy, big energy, but it is done by a scientist, not that the ingredients automatically mix together and become an atomic... No. That is not possible. Big, big brain, scientist, they are dealing. Similarly this big energy-creation, maintenance, and destruction of nature—that nature is called Durgā. Durgā. Duḥ. Duḥ means difficult, and gā means going or to understand. To understand the laws of material nature is very difficult. That is called Durgā. Or Durgā means... Durgā means this is like a fort. We are kept within this, and the superintendent is Durgā. Therefore Durgā's picture is ten hands, ten directions with different kinds of weapon protecting. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā, icchānu... (Bs. 5.44). Now the conclusion. Icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā: "She is working not independently, according to the desire of somebody else." Who is that somebody? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **: "That is Govinda. I am worshiping Him." And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Jayatīrtha: So the purpose of having the Society is to show the devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according to your instruction.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that a fool's paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC. They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise. At least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes, then he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then it is fool's paradise. So somehow or other, we have got now a position. People likes us. So we should not spoil by personal sense gratification. That is my request. If we can maintain this institution rigidly according to the order, then many people will be benefited. By seeing our behavior, by character, they will become. Apani ācāri prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. The leader should be ideal.
Prabhupāda: Every individual being has knowledge. Even a small ant, it has got knowledge. Knowledge... Of course, development of knowledge according to the body, but a living entity, even the trees, they have got knowledge. They grow... When there is some block, they do not grow that side; they grow this side. Is it not?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So every living being has got knowledge. The basic knowledge, how to maintain, every one has got.
Professor: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: No, knowledge... Living entity, by constitutional position, has got knowledge, but in connection with this material world, when this living entity comes to this material world, so according to the body, the development of knowledge differs.
Professor: If one is following different stage, status of knowledge...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Different stage of knowledge means different types of body. Just like a child. A child is talking in some way. The same child, when he will get a different body, youthful body, he'll talk differently. What do you think?
Prabhupāda: Our first problem is, because we have got this material body, eating. Everyone must eat. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) "If there is sufficient food grains, then both man and animal, they become happy." Therefore our first religion is to produce food grain sufficiently to feed everyone. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva (BG 18.44). This matter has been entrusted to the vaiśyas. They should produce sufficient food and give protection to the cows for sufficient milk. Then the whole human society, animal society, will be happy. But we are disobeying the orders or the rules given by God. Instead of producing food, we are producing motorcars. And motor tires, motor parts. And so many other things. And therefore people are starving. The manual labor is being misused. We are disobeying the orders of God. Therefore we are unhappy. I have seen all over the world. There are enough space for producing food grains. And if we actually produce food grain, we can maintain ten times of the present population of the whole world. There is no question of scarcity because God has created everything complete. Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). There cannot be any defect in the creation of God.
Prabhupāda: No. His quality... He has no quality.
Guest (2): Spiritual type.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not spiritual type, it..., material type. He cannot maintain himself independently. Nowadays people are being educated highly, but if there is no service he has no value.
Guest (2): So the tamasi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no value. I have seen one doctor of chemistry—he could not get any service—in Allahabad. His name was Raghunātha Mitri(?), Dr. Raghunātha Mitri. So he was living at the cost of his father-in-law and making some soap and going to the shop for selling, doctor. That means he could not get any service. Now his independence was to manufacture some soap as ordinary man is doing. But he was chemist; he could not do anything. He could manufacture some soap. So in spite of high education, because he could not get a good job, he had no value. Just like the dogs. The dogs, if they do not get a master, nice, then street dog. He is lean and thin and no shelter, no...
Guest (1): That is what is happening...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, none of us are created. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā...
Guest (6): Yes, I understand now. I spoke earlier with some people... In other words you say we are co-eternal with the father just as Christ is.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are all eternal. That is nityo nityānām. I have already explained. Nitya means eternal. There are two eternals: one chief eternal, God, and one subordinate eternals, they are plural number. God is one, and we are many. Father is one; the children are many. Similarly, both the father and the children are eternal. God is not created, and the childrens are not created. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā. All these living entity, they are never created; neither they ever die. Nityaḥ śāśvatam na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They are eternal, ever existing. Even after the destruction of the body, they are not annihilated. So God is eternal. That I have already explained. And we living entities, we are also eternal. How the son can be otherwise? If the father is eternal, the son is also eternal. The son cannot be... Because son is the expansion, part and parcel of the father, so all the qualities of the father are there. The only quality difference is the father maintainer and the sons are maintained. That means the father has got unlimited resources to maintain the sons, and the sons, they have no resources. They are maintained by the father. This is perfect philosophy. Otherwise, if you are self-sufficient, then why you go to church and beg father, "Give us our daily bread"? That is... That means you are maintained. You are begging the father, "Please maintain us." So if the Supreme Being, who is maintaining millions of trillions of living entities, He is great, or the living entities who are maintained by God, they are great? Therefore God is great, and we are subordinate. This is natural conclusion. How you can go otherwise? If you are self-sufficient, why go to church and pray, "God, give us our daily bread"? Are you independent?
Guest (6): No. I am a creature.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Devotee (2): They see us distributing, and they don't like what we're doing, they get very angry, but still, they're thinking of Kṛṣṇa all day. We often wondered how they are benefiting even though they maintain this very envious...
Devotee (1): Just like the Mohammedans were benefited.
Prabhupāda: They say, "Here is the Kṛṣṇa man." So he utters the name of Kṛṣṇa. That is good for him.
Devotee (2): And then after a while, when they become our friends, then they may stop and listen to us.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because he has chanted Kṛṣṇa, "Here is the Kṛṣṇa man. Here is the rascal Kṛṣṇa man." (laughter)
Tripurāri: We found one policeman at the Atlanta airport was always harassing the devotees, trying to stop them. And one time I came down the stairs and I saw him in the corner reading Īśopaniṣad and trying to understand. They know that we have some knowledge; they are just envious of our success. They want to find out, "What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness about?" They don't want to admit that they want to know. Actually everyone wants to know about Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they must.
Bernard Manischewitz: He dies his own natural death?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the higher class, they keep cows, they maintain, but after all, the animal will die. So when the animal dies, they call for this cobbler class, and he takes away the dead cows. So he gets out the skin, hooves, bones and flesh, they eat, and this skin is tanned by them, and they prepare shoes. So they get their raw material without any price.
Bernard Manischewitz: I see, yes. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: They are poor class. So our program, "When he will die," so they wait for the death of the animal and get the skin, hoof, bones, they make trade. (to devotee:) So what is this key, the elmira?
Devotee: No, that is a little spoon for your tilaka.
Prabhupāda: Oh. So cow is very important animal. So from religious point of view, or from economic point of view, cows are not allowed, in the Vedic civilization, to be killed. The meat-eaters, they are everywhere, all over the world, but in India meat-eating is allowed—the fifth class, fifth grade community, they eat these cows when it is dead. And the śūdra class, they also eat meat restrictively, goats. That is only under certain restriction, means sacrifice. The goat is sacrificed in the Goddess Kali's temple, and they eat. This is very dangerous, this sacrifice. It is very dangerous. It creates all sinful men. In the Christian religion also, it is said, "Thou shall not kill," and they are killing. So what kind of Christians they are?
Bernard Manischewitz: Do they kill them in a slaughterhouse?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bernard Manischewitz: Do they kill them in a slaughterhouse? The goats?
Prabhupāda: No.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not meant for the Hindus, but Kṛṣṇa appeared in Hindustan. Therefore it is the duty of all Hindus to know Kṛṣṇa first. And they also conscious. Every Hindu knows Kṛṣṇa. Every Hindu observes the Janmāṣṭamī, Kṛṣṇa's birthday. But they are not very serious to understand Kṛṣṇa as a follower. Just like Christian. They admit they are Christian but don't follow the Christian principles. So that Hindus are also like that. Nobody is following Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am God." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "There is no more superior person or superior position than Me," Kṛṣṇa says. And "God" means that. In the dictionary "God" means the Supreme Being. Supreme Being means nobody is greater than Him; nobody is equal to Him. That is called supreme. So here God personally says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). But this rascal will not accept. They will say, "No, here is another dini-kṛṣṇa." They will bring one competitor. That is going on. "God" means there cannot be any competitor. Nobody is equal to Him; nobody is greater than Him. But they will bring so many competitors. "Why Kṛṣṇa alone will be God?" This is the position of the modern Hindus. They have lost their own culture, and they wanted to imitate Western culture. That they could not do, neither they could maintain their own culture. Therefore in the wilderness, very precarious condition.
Guest: They say powerful but what about...
Prabhupāda: Yes, then we have to know this powerful, not only the power. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). In another place, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir eka chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā (Bs. 5.44). Durgā is power. Power is in... What kind of power? Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir eka. She can create, she can maintain and she can destroy, so powerful. But this power, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir eka chāyeva (Bs. 5.44), is working just like shadow. Just like here is shadow. I am moving this hand; the shadow is moving. Shadow is not independently moving. Therefore this gigantic power, material energy, is working under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayādhyakṣeṇa: (BG 9.10) "under My superintendence." So we are allured with the power, but who is manipulating this power we do not know. That is God.
Guest: Yes, they follow. It's essentially the same practice as the majority.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot amend on the words of Mohammed if you are a true Muslim.
Guest: I don't think they have meant to amend it, its just that...
Prabhupāda: Now why? There was five now they have made three. (indistinct) You cannot do that.
Guest: They maintain that, that Ali, that this was the practice of Ali. That Ali prayed at noon in the afternoon.
Guest: Ali is a representative of Mohammed.
Guest: He's the brother, brother-in-law, the son-in-law.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: Ali.
Prabhupāda: Ali, Ali.
Guest: He was...
Prabhupāda: Ali Hussein.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the BBT. That is the main purpose, that fifty percent must go...
Haṁsadūta: For printing. Fifty percent for printing, fifty percent for building.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. This is the main purpose.
Brahmānanda: But the difficulty is that in India there's no other source of income besides the Life Membership. How they will maintain?
Prabhupāda: What is the...? That you discuss.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, a meeting. (?)
Prabhupāda: That you discuss, how these sources, how their maintenance should be... But BBT is already declared. It is meant for two purposes. Now you find out how the sources. That is business of GBC.
Jayatīrtha: That we can discuss afterwards?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda...
Prabhupāda: The BBT, that, it should be: how the complaints should be stopped, and if they have no other income, then how things should be managed. That is... GBC should discuss.
Prabhupāda: Legal matter. So I want to protect BBT.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Legally, you will want. But, in fact, GBC is also concerned...
Prabhupāda: That you are concerned. You do this—now how to stop these complaints.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Now they want to maintain from the GBC income. How this can be avoided, you consider.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It is not something we forget because it's BBT.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But these are the important problems, that the, here in India, the members are complaining. Sometimes they are sending complaining to me. So the first business is how to, how the collection from the membership is being dispersed, how the money is being dispersed. Suppose I... He is a member. I take him, 222. Then how the money is being spent? So you see first of all that...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a GBC matter.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is GBC matter.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Karandhara is only, what he's getting is only enough for his maintenance.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Atreya Ṛṣi: We are being maintained.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Maintenance... Here, everyone can earn money and maintain him, but here this expense should be sacrifice. The essential is service.
Haṁsadūta: It's his service...
Prabhupāda: Service, yes.
Haṁsadūta: It was started for that reason.
Prabhupāda: If we take payment, that is not service. That is business. That is business.
Jayatīrtha: It is, no doubt, a fact that Karandhara is not giving his full, is giving his full life as service. That is a fact. It may be taken...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our organization is to give service.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They quote a verse from the Bible where it says that God has given man control over everything on this earth.
Prabhupāda: That control does not mean "The government is in control, therefore government should kill only." These... All rascals, simply rascals. Control, that's all right. You are grown-up boys, human beings, so you should control. You should maintain them, and take service from them, not that you shall kill them. They interpret in that "Because under my control, therefore I shall kill"?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just see how foolish they are.
Jayatīrtha: The children are under the control of the parents, but the parents don't kill the children.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: They protect.
Santoṣa: Control means protect. (break)
Prabhupāda: Suffering for all these sinful activities, always throbbing. See the newspaper. The newspaper is full of news—one side, everyone is restless condition, throbbing, and another news, sense gratification. That's all.
Prabhupāda: No.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...animals of any kind? Would a Vedic king try to prohibit the fifth-class men from eating the animals?
Prabhupāda: No. Animals, you can eat if you like. But there was no slaughterhouse. If you like, you can kill your own animal and eat. That was open. But the state did not maintain any slaughterhouse. And the third-class, fourth-class men, they would eat. So simply by saying that "You don't eat," they will not accept that. They're free, but the state would not maintain the slaughterhouse. At the present moment also, if the slaughterhouse are closed, then immediately seventy-five-percent meat-eating will be stopped. They maintain slaughterhouse. That is the most sinful activity.
Pañcadraviḍa: That was Nehru's contribution?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: Nehru started that slaughterhouse?
Prabhupāda: No, it is British contribution, the mlecchas. Before British period, even in Mohammedan period, there was no slaughterhouse, neither the public used to take cow's flesh. Still in Mohammedan country, Afghanistan, these places, they do not take cow's flesh. Lamb, goats. In the Vedic culture, the cow is recommended to be protected, not other animals. Other animals, the meat-eaters can eat.
Prabhupāda: Vānaprastha college, yes. That is the very essential thing at the present moment, that a class of men... Just like the same example: If one wants to become an engineer he must be properly trained up. If he wants to become a medical man he must be properly trained up. Similarly, if one wants to become a brāhmaṇa, then he must be properly trained up, or even if one does not want, the state should maintain a college where a real brāhmaṇa is trained up. Just like Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, when he opened some higher studies of academic qualification, so there was one or two students, and there were three professors drawing at least twelve hundred rupees per month. So twelve hundred rupees per month, that means thirty-six hundred, expenditure, and the income is thirty-six rupees. It is not the question of money, but it is the question of culture. So even though at the present moment people are not inclined to become a brāhmaṇa, I tried it. I tried it before starting this movement. I tried to some friends that "You have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall train him how to become a perfect brāhmaṇa." Nobody agreed. They said, "Swamiji, (Hindi)," But if there is not a ideal class of brāhmaṇa, then how you can say that you become moralist? If there is no example of moralist, how you can ask people, "Become moralist"?
Prabhupāda: Still, those who live, they depend on mother.
Guest: Actual, the serpent because serpent government, he says.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Serpent mother also, Kali-yuga. (break) ...they are keeping, but it is not possible to give them food by purchasing. They are taking food from the street. Similarly, the poor man keep a cow. It is not possible to purchase food for the cows. So maintain in this way, so, by natural food. And in Germany I have seen. They are not given extra food. They are living by pasturing ground. That should be arranged. They should get food from the ground, not that we have to purchase food for them. Then you cannot maintain.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We just recently went to Govardhana Hill. Several years ago the grass at Govardhana Hill was very nice and long and green. This year, though, it didn't seem so green. It was very brown and...
Prabhupāda: Yes, from Kṛṣṇa's time the Govardhana grass was being supplied to the cows. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommended, "Better worship Govardhana Hill. Why you are going to Indra?"
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So that means that it is possible for long green grasses to grow in this area.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everywhere. The only difficulty is there is no water, no supply of water. In the rainy season this will be all green immediately, immediately, without any delay. So, the only difficulty—there is no water.
Śrutakīrti: Christ's greatest commandment was to love God above all things. So if one is to love God, one must follow His instructions.
Prabhupāda: Who is following the instructions?
Śrutakīrti: We are.
Prabhupāda: But supposing Christ distributed fish, but did he say that we shall maintain regular slaughterhouse for killing animals?
Śrutakīrti: He was against that. He threw the men out of the temple, because they were selling lambs in the temple to be offered at the altar. So he kicked them out, saying this temple is not a place for selling animals for slaughter.
Paramahaṁsa: But in one place they say Christ encouraged fishermen. Because he came and the fishermen were fishing on one side of the boat, and Christ came along and said, "You are fishing on the wrong side of the boat." He said, "Put your nets on the other side, and you will get more fish." An they did that and they got huge amounts of fish. And so they were encouraged in their fish-eating in this way.
Gaṇeśa: Jesus also said to the fisherman, "Give up you fishing and I will make you fishers of men." He said this to his disciples.
Prabhupāda: Then on the whole it comes that his instructions are sometimes contradictory.
Prabhupāda: Anyone who takes milk... Everyone takes milk. The cow is the mother. Mother gives milk. And mother, when she cannot supply milk, mother should be cut up. Is that a very good philosophy? Is it human philosophy? What is the answer? But if you say that somebody wants to, say in your country majority they want to eat meat. So, if you put that argument, then you can eat some lower animals. You can eat the pigs. You are eating also, pigs. Not in a massive scale. Massive scale—if you are Christian you should follow your religious scripture: "Thou shall not kill!" This should be the principle. But if you are a rākṣasa, if you want to eat meat, then at least don't kill the cows. You can eat other, insignificant animals. You are eating also. You are eating everything. Except the moving cars, you are eating all the moving animals. The car also moves, but you cannot eat. Otherwise you are killing everything. You have become so civilized rascal that your business is to kill other animals and eat. You are so civilized. You are still in the crude form of human being, just like in the jungles, the aborigines, the Africans, they do not know how to develop civilization—crude methods, eating the animals. That also, they are not so uncivilized that they keep slaughterhouses. You are so uncivilized that you are keeping slaughterhouses, regularly. These Africans and other jungle people they eat meat, but they directly kill. They have no such civilization as to maintain a slaughterhouse. The tigers eat meat, but they do not keep a slaughterhouse. And you are civilized. You are keeping slaughterhouse. Why should you keep? The government shouldn't allow you to keep slaughterhouses. If anyone wants to eat meat, let them eat like tigers and others. Individually, kill one animal—a lower animal, not cows. This should be the government law. You can kill one insignificant animal, like pigs or goats. It has not very much use. You kill it in your home, before your children and family, and eat. The government may not have any objection. But why should you maintain slaughterhouses? So the agriculturist and the mercantile men, they should produce enough food, give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, sell it. Where there is not enough food grain produced you can make business. That is the instruction given in Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). That is really needed. Nobody is interested. Everyone comes to the city, the mercantile class. They are doing business, big, big skyscraper building, and they have artificial money, paper. And instead of eating food grains they are maintaining slaughterhouses. This is not good civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Paramahaṁsa: In one science magazine they have published recently there's an article by a man who says we must eat meat because the plants don't have any fatty tissues for making brain tissue, so they say...
Prabhupāda: Rascal. So your brain is causing disaster; still you are developing brain? (laughter) Your brain is causing bankruptcy, and still you want to develop this rubbish brain? Begging money, "You give us money so that we can maintain"? And what is the use of this brain? Burn this brain. Advise him that "You better burn your brain so that you may not create any more disaster." To keep his brain, one animal must be sacrificed. And the brain work is this, that they are creating disaster. What is the use of this brain?
Paramahaṁsa: He says that the brain of man is bigger because man has been eating meat for so long.
Prabhupāda: Another rascal. That is the difficulty. The world is full of rascals and demons. And they are leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). "A blind man is leading other blind men."
Devotee (1): Instead of using the land to grow potatoes and watermelons, they're simply using it to build more offices for tables and chairs to study the situation.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (pause) Life will be more more dangerous in this Kali-yuga. People will starve. And they... It is already began. The hippies are going to the forest. This will be the whole world situation. Everything will be chaotic.
Justin Murphy: Certainly not, no. But why is there...? If people are, in their own way, then, chanting to their God, why...
Prabhupāda: No, no... Ultimately, you require sufficient supply of water to grow your food, vegetables. Or even if you are animal-eater, to maintain your animals you require sufficient water. And that is recommended, that yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). And the yajña is very simple: chanting the holy name of the Lord. So why not introduce, that every home, every factory, every community, every place, they should sit down at least for half an hour and chant the holy name of the Lord?
Justin Murphy: Could I ask you very simply? You suggest this. If we all do this, will that, for example, remove the problems that we do, that our society, at any rate, at any guess, generates for ourself? We have more and more pollution. Depending on the way the wind blows, for example, we get at times choking pollution from the industrial complexes down to the south of this city. Are these problems going to be...
Prabhupāda: No, no, the next question will be, "If you get sufficient grain for eating, why should you take to industry?"
Justin Murphy: Selfishness.
Prabhupāda: But I want to live. There are... India, eighty percent people, they are vegetarian. They are living very nicely. They are eating sufficient food grain and fruits and milk and milk product. God has given us so many. So why should we maintain slaughterhouse, killing other animals? So a first-class man will not do that. First-class man will think that "I want to eat something to keep myself fit. If by natural products I can keep myself fit, why shall I kill another animal?" And every religion teaches that. Now take in your Christian religion. Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." And they are maintaining slaughterhouse. So this is the condition of the society. How you can become happy? You are violating the rules and regulation of religion and God. You cannot become... Nature will disturb in so many ways. That is nature's business.
Prabhupāda: No.
Guest (2): Not illicit. But it is...
Prabhupāda: Polygamy means if it is married. Just like in the Vedic society they used to marry many wives. Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa had sixteen thousand wives. And He maintained them sixteen thousand palaces. And He expanded Himself into sixteen thousand Kṛṣṇas. So that is a different thing; He is God. But if you can maintain each and every wife, you can marry more than one wife. But if you are unable to maintain, that is illicit. All the kṣatriya kings, they used to marry more than one wife. Still in India, the kṣatriyas, kings, they have more than one wife. But they maintain very nicely.
Guest (2): But your method of curing drug addiction has no definite practical use, surely.
Prabhupāda: Why not practical?
Guest (2): Not everyone who wants to stop taking drugs can spend six months in solitude or in a company like yours.
Paramahaṁsa: He says he finds it not practical because not everyone who is addicted to drugs can spend six months in a temple with us.
Prabhupāda: They are spending years. They are all European, Americans. They are not Indians. We have got here... You go to Melbourne. We have got big branch. In Sydney we have got. In Europe. They are doing that. It requires training, proper training. Then it will be done.
Prabhupāda: For children-kill them. This is Kali-yuga. They are killing their own children and patting a dog. Just see how much fallen they are, and they're passing as civilized. Fourth class. Complaining of overpopulation, and the dog gives birth at a time half a dozen—there is no overpopulation, welcome; we shall maintain them. Huh? They're giving twice in a year, or once in a, even once in a year, that is no overpopulation. A man gives one or two birth, it is overpopulation. Formerly they are begetting hundred children. At that time there was no complaint of overpopulation. At that time, the description in the history is kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). On account of good rains, the earth used to produce immense necessities of life. Just like this portion is maintained with sufficient water, there is green everywhere. So if there is sufficient rain, everywhere you can do. Where is the question of overpopulation? (break) ...population you work for growing food. No. Some of them are becoming hippies, no work. And some of them are working for manufacturing tire tube, tools, that's all. Where is food? Still there is food, but they'll not work for this, for growing food.
Dr. Copeland: Ah, that's why. Ah! Pretty! Are you a brāhmaṇa? By birth you're a brāhmaṇa, right?
Prabhupāda: No. I am brāhmaṇa yes. Yes. But we are not... We do not recognize brāhmaṇa by birth. Brāhmaṇa by these qualities. Anyone who has got... This is the shastric injunction, that if the qualities are found somewhere else—that means one who is not born in a brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the brāhmaṇa—then he should be accepted as a brāhmaṇa. That is shastric injunction. Yasya hi yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi. Anyatra means elsewhere. Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). "He should be accepted as such." Similarly, if a man, born in brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the śūdras... Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Paricarya means service. To accept... (break) So therefore, according to Bhagavad-gītā, nobody is brāhmaṇa. A brāhmaṇa should remain independent. He should live by his qualities. People will honor him. Just like we are training. We do not serve anyone, but we are maintaining big establishment.
This is brāhmaṇa. We do not serve anyone, any merchant, officer, any... No. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. If Kṛṣṇa wants, He will give us food, or we shall starve. We are not going to serve. This is the proof. We are spending not less than twenty lakhs of rupees for maintaining our establishment throughout the whole world, but we do not know what is our next moment's income. We do not know... We have eaten today. We do not know whether we shall have any eatable next day. This is our position. If it is available, we shall eat; otherwise we shall starve. This is our position. Still, I don't seek any employment, "Give us some service to maintain our..." No, we don't do that. We never do that. When I was alone, I was not doing that. I was living alone. I had no income, no friend, no shelter. Since I left my home, since 1954, I never cared for anyone maintaining me. And there was no resource, fixed income, nothing of the sort. I depended on Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, in the whole society we are feeding daily ten thousand men.
Prabhupāda: Therefore younger generation, they are not interested in education. They see that, after all, the life is vacant even after education.
Hari-śauri: The leaders appear to have adopted a stopgap policy so that they can keep the people in ignorance and fool them that they are doing some good when actually they are not, so that they can maintain their position as leader. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking by material adjustment they will be happy. That is not possible. But they are so fools, they do not think over it, that "Where is the solution? You have given me the chance to live in a skyscraper building, but is that solution of the problems?" They have no brain to ask this. Is it...? Does it mean that if you live in a skyscraper building there will be no death, no disease, no old age? Then where is the solution? But real problem is going on. Everyone is trying to save himself from disease, from old age, from death. Why do they go to the physician as soon as there is some disease? "That I may not die." The attempt is to save from the death, but ultimately they are dying. They have no brain to think of it. Why do they go to the physician as soon as one is diseased? Why do they go?
Amogha: They want to be well.
Paramahaṁsa: So by joining this movement we come to the platform where we can take birth in India in a nice brāhmaṇa family?
Prabhupāda: No, you can go directly also, if you want to finish your business. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41). This is a consideration, who, one who fails in executing. But if you become successful, then you go directly where Kṛṣṇa is there. Kṛṣṇa is there in some universe. So those who are completely liberated, they go to that universe. Just like when Kṛṣṇa comes here, in each and every universe there is a Vṛndāvana. So in that Vṛndāvana one takes birth. Then goes to original Vṛndāvana. (break)
Paramahaṁsa: Those who are not able to maintain the Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle, then they may have to go to India next lifetime.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīmatam, śrīmatāṁ śucīnāṁ.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So śrīmatāṁ, you can get here. Śrīmatam means rich, rich family. Here you get many families, Ford family... But śrīmatāṁ and śucīnāṁ. So if you are creating so many brāhmaṇas, so if this cult is permanent, then there will be many brāhmaṇa family here also.
Prabhupāda: Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. (break) ...mountains are creation of volcanic eruption?
Bali-mardana: Yes. (break)
Siddha-svarūpa: ...crater there. Inside there is a crater.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) ...problem is, at the present moment, they have exhausted all their intellect. Now they are finding out how to bluff the people and maintain themselves. That is their problem. Yes.
Bali-mardana: Yes. The people have lost faith in the science because they have not produced anything.
Prabhupāda: That is the problem. Because they have cheated people for so many years and drawn high salaries, now they are finding out: "How to cheat these rascals and continue our business?" This is the problem. Because they have nothing to research. Everything, whatever, are finished. And all failure. Simply big, big words, that's all. Word jugglery, that's all. They could not do anything. What exactly they have done, something which is not done by God? They competition with God, so what they have done? What is their contribution?
Bali-mardana: Only negative; nothing positive. (break) ...easier to kill people.
Prabhupāda: That's it. That much they have done, yes. (break) ...diverting the attention of the people from going to the moon planet, they are meeting in the sky. So what will benefit we shall derive by their meeting in the sky?
Prabhupāda: The diets are not good or you are not good?
Yadubara: Oh. (break) ...for one year to alter the diet in so many ways and it never worked. It was useless. (break)
Devotee (2): I think that's for maintaining the right depth to the lake. I think they have a pump house down here, and they maintain the depth of the lake by these things.
Prabhupāda: Water is supplied or...?
Devotee (2): Yes.
Devotee (1): Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): In Denver here we have many businesses going on for you. And we are out engaging karmīs in helping us retrieve lakṣmī. We are going to them for lakṣmī in so many ways. How is it that this engages them, or does it engage them in Kṛṣṇa's service? Do they make any benefit?
Prabhupāda: What they are doing by doing business? They are gṛhasthas doing business?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's not more practical to earn money by preaching?
Prabhupāda: If preaching, by preaching we can get money, why should we go to the karmīs?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because you wrote me in a letter that so far as you are concerned, you think that your books are enough to maintain the society.
Prabhupāda: I think so. But if they think that by doing some other business, they will get more money, then what can I say? This is very good business. Yes. We are preaching, at the same time getting money.
Devotee (2): We have found in our experience that some kinds of men do better in doing business. They feel more satisfied in collecting money in that way for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that money should be used for Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee (2): Yes. Different kinds of men have to be engaged in different ways. Otherwise they become dissatisfied.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, svakarmaṇā. Anyone, he likes to do something, that is his karma. But by that karma, he can serve Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate navaḥ. Saṁsiddhi means perfection. (break)
Devotee (1): ...in our preaching work we will be able to maintain our temples, and with our business activities, we will be able to expand and buy all these farms, do so many things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If it is favorable, do it, business.(?) Therefore we have made program: 50% must come to Kṛṣṇa, at least. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yuddhe cāpalāyanam. A kṣatriya should be so trained up, when there is fight, he must come out, forward. Not that he will sit down in his secluded place and poor man will fight. No. He should come forward as leader, "Come on." That is kṣatriya quality, yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Formerly there was fight, but the leaders, they would come face to face first of all. And if the leader, one of the leader is killed-yuddha means one party must be vanquished, fight—then the war is finished. The main person, chief person is now killed, so there is no more war. So yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Those who are taking part in administration, in politics, they must be of this quality, very chivalrous, brave. They have to learn all these quality. Just like the first-class men, they are being trained up in self-controlling, controlling the mind, controlling the senses. And these second-class men, they should be trained up how to fight. Because fight will there be. We do not place this bogus idea that there will be no fight. No. Then fight will be there so long the human society is there. But what for one should fight? That training should be there. Not unnecessarily. In the history of India we find there were two fights: one with Rāvaṇa and another the Kurukṣetra fight. (break) Not at the whims of the leaders. He has got some idea and declare war and engage people. He is safe, now the people are dying. Therefore these leaders, this administration, they require to be guided by the first-class men. So everything will be possible, provided our, this heart is cleansed. And that can be done by this propagation of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Then everything will be automatically done. So my request is that if we get some encouragement from the authorities, we can push this movement little more vigorously. Otherwise we have no source. We simply sell our books, and whatever we get by that, we maintain ourself, we publish again books, or we open new center. There is no encouragement from the authorities. (break) But very important movement. And try to understand it and if possible help us.
Prabhupāda: So what can I do? What is the difficulty? What do you want from us?
City Counselor: Really nothing. The only problem is that there are certain rules and regulations that all the citizens of Evanston must comply with. And that's all that has been asked to be done. Originally, as I expressed, there were some... This property, the temple, is located in an area which is zoned for business. And there were some originally who wished to maintain that...
Prabhupāda: But there are so many churches...
City Counselor: Yes, there are many churches, yes. And I think...
Prabhupāda: So what is the fault if there is a temple?
City Counselor: Well, I think the... Originally, again I say, some of the no..., not I, but some had some objections to any church, any temple...
Prabhupāda: But already there are churches. I have seen so many churches surrounding our temple.
City Counselor: But I think that that is no longer a problem with the zoning. I think they accept the temple because they have seen that the...
Prabhupāda: The churches are not problem? Only the temple is problem?
City Counselor: No, I don't think that's the situation.
Prabhupāda: Then, what is the situation?
Prof. Hopkins: Do you... Do you think then that that, that message is the most important message that you have to convey?
Prabhupāda: This is the most important message. Because you are not this material body. Suppose you have got this shirt. If you simply try to maintain this shirt, is that very good intelligence, without taking care of your person? Similarly, if we are spirit soul and the body is just like dress, so the whole material world is, everyone is engaged to take care of the body. Nobody knows what is spirit soul, what is this need. Nobody knows. All these educational institutions, they are blind. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). And the whole system is also blind. If a blind man leads another blind man what is the benefit? No benefit. Therefore in your country, every country, it is a blind education. No spiritual enlightenment.
Prof. Hopkins: What is the solution? What is the solution? Devotion to God...
Prabhupāda: First of all you know what is spirit. Then as soon as you know that you are spirit then wherefrom the spirit comes, or wherefrom everything comes? Then it comes to the question of God. And then we understand what is our relationship with God. And then if we act according to that, then it is perfect life.
Prabhupāda: What is the use of creating new forms? Already there are eight million.
Rādhā-vallabha: But their claim is that by breeding different forms together they will get superior forms. They give the example...
Prabhupāda: You cannot maintain your own child form. You are killing, and what is the use of increasing?
Rādhā-vallabha: Well, for example they used to have wild boars. They could not eat them. But they have bred now very fat pigs to eat. So they consider this to be a great advantage.
Yadubara: Also with fruits and vegetables they are combining and creating new types.
Prabhupāda: Factually, (indistinct) so many varieties.
Brahmānanda: Like the nectāriṇe is a combination of a peach and a plum.
Jayādvaita: We have the real nectarine, though. (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...created a new species, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: What they created? The nectāriṇe you may have created, but the peach and the plum was there.
Brahmānanda: They are starting back.
Nityānanda: Down the road we have fifteen acres of sorghum, grain for the cows.
Prabhupāda: And everything for the cows, but what for the man? They will give everything for cows because they will eat cows, other farmers. But you utilize the animals for growing your food.
Brahmānanda: The idea is we should maintain the animals, but then the animals should provide foodstuffs for the men.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: And that way there is cooperation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The animals, bulls, should have helped in spite of that... instead of that machine. Then it is properly utilized. And others, they cannot utilize these animals. Therefore, what they will do? Naturally they will send to slaughterhouse. But we are not going to send to the slaughterhouse. Then what we will do? They must be utilized. Otherwise simply for growing food that the cows and bulls we engage ourself? You are already feeling burden because there are so many bull calves. You were asking me, "What we shall do with so many bulls?"
Brahmānanda: With bow and arrow, he was saying.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is allowed?
Ambarīṣa: No. It is against the law.
Ādi-keśava: When we were coming over here, we were discussing how in this whole park, there is this big huge park, and only two or three men maintain the whole park because they don't have enough money to pay them. Yet if you go to the street not so far down from the temple, there are so many men just sitting in the street doing nothing all day long. And yet they say there is a shortage of men to work in this place to make it nice.
Prabhupāda: It is defective training, bad civilization. They cannot employ everyone. (break) ...religion stresses that everyone should be engaged. No one should remain idle. That is the government's duty. Bad government.
Bhāgavata: Also that other man approached, that farm person?
Jayapatāka: Of course, that... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...self-independent, or self dependent.
Bhāgavata: If we build up enough trade, tourist trade, like that in the guesthouse, then Māyāpur can maintain itself very easily.
Prabhupāda: So do it. (break) ...of the modern civilization, they are thinking that having such nice house, nice motorcar, nice road, nice machine, nice dress, nice woman, they will be happy. This is advancement of civilization. What is this? Don't drink, don't smoke, no meat, simply denying, denying? This is civilization. They think "This is practical. And after death who is going to take care?" Bhasmī-bhutasya dehasya kutaḥ punar-āgamano bhavet: "When the body is finished, burning into ashes, who is coming, and who is responsible?" This is atheistic civilization. (break) ...artha-maninaḥ. External energy, that is everything. Within the body there is the soul. They deny it. There is no soul, body is everything, and enjoy bodily enjoyment. That's all. And our philosophy immediately condemns that "Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life, he is sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13); he is animal." So this is a park?
Indian man: A small park.
Indian man (1): Kamādinaṁ katīna katidha palita durnideśaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah. When he comes to this awareness, that "I have simply suffered and I wanted to maintain myself by jugglery of words," then he comes to the real knowledge.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: So the Māyāvādīs' philosophy is actually the supreme illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has forbidden. Māyāvādī-bhāṣya sunile haya sarva nasa (CC Madhya 6.169). One is finished if he follows the Māyāvāda philosophy. He is doomed. He will never be able to accept the real philosophy. He will be absorbed in that false philosophy. This is Māyāvādī's position. Māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhī. They are aparādhī, offender. Therefore they shall remain perpetually in ignorance and think himself, "I am God." This is Māyāvādī's position. Vivekānanda preached openly that "Why you are thinking that you are sinful? You are God." He preached like that.
Kartikeya: Equal right.
Prabhupāda: Equal rights. Make agreement. "Once you beget; once I shall." (laughs) Make this contract. Then it is equal right. If the woman has to give birth of a child and she has to suffer all the pains thereof, then where is the equal right? Where is equal right? Nature has said, "You must suffer." The husband, the so-called husband, will give birth, er, will utilize you for sex satisfaction, and you will be pregnant, and he will go away and you will suffer the whole life to maintain the child, welfare—"Give me some money"—or this or that. Where is equal right? He is free. He has gone away. Huh? This is general experience in the Western countries.
Brahmānanda: "Unwed mothers."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And she cannot also check that "I shall not become mother." For sex appetite she will agree, and the man will go away and she will suffer. Is that civilization?
Brahmānanda: Each year there are over one million abortions.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Brahmānanda: In America there are over one million abortions.
Prabhupāda: And they are advanced. They are proud of their being advanced. And they will not suffer? So we are trying to save the whole human society from rascaldom. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You see? This is nīm tree. There is many nīm trees. If they kindly accept and follow this movement they will be happy. Otherwise they are doomed. Let them suffer. What can I do? Thorough overhauling.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very difficult at the moment, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If we have that choice, then I humbly say we not open the Ahmedabad temple now because... At other temples, like Calcutta, which have (unclear) and which are in a very critical situation because I haven't given them any men...
Prabhupāda: (break) You require one man to your selection. So nobody will stay. Everyone has to go. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... (break) The Ahmedabad people cannot maintain this park. How they will maintain their center? And you are not making good life members? Then?
Yaśomatīnandana: These are only few days that they have started making... Last time we came they made eight members in five weeks.
Prabhupāda: Members are made after the festival.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (unclear)
Yaśomatīnandana: My point is this, that people are very attracted to foreigners. If there is one good foreigner, then they will be attracted.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you discriminate, this foreigner to that foreigner?
Yaśomatīnandana: I don't mind anybody. Whatever you say is all right. But I was just thinking like this because if somebody's going to come for a month, two months, then go, he might not put his heart.
Prabhupāda: That is the position of everyone. When they will go away, there is no certainty. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma... Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) You are student? You are student? Somebody suggested some meeting here? Yesterday.
Indian man (5): Continues delusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has imposed death, that "You may make your plan as free man, but you'll not be allowed to stay. I'll kick you out." These poor men, they did not think of it, that "I am making so nice plan, but at any moment I'll be kicked out. So where is my freedom?" Dull brain does not think of it. A prisoner, if he thinks that he is free to act, is it not foolishness? A prisoner, in prison, and if he thinks that he is free to act, is it not foolishness? So that they do not think. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has grouped them: mūḍha, these rascals, mūḍha. They conduct freedom movement. Just like in our country also, before this British Empire or this Mohammedan Empire there was no knowledge about this freedom. Indian people never thought of freedom. They know that "We are not free. Where is the question of freedom?" These things have come from the foreign countries, freedom movement. What is freedom? Where are you free? You are completely under the laws of nature. Where is your freedom? So they were thinking of greater freedom, to get out of the clutches of the laws of nature. That is real freedom. What is this freedom? From frying pan to the fire? (chuckles) Now we have freedom means from frying pan to the fire. Formerly there was one viceroy. Now in each state three dozen viceroys, and you have to maintain that. So many legislators, so many secretaries, so many ministers. All, they are sucking our poor blood. That's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you approach them for some grievances, "All right, give me application," and, after six months, "No." So we are maintaining for this purpose? Yes. "I say no." That's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...ing of freedom, but we have no freedom even to stay in this body.
Brahmānanda: Here they use powdered milk because they have no cows.
Prabhupāda: Just see. And here even by this sugarcane, what is called? Upper part? This part?
Indian man (1): We call it ag.(?)
Prabhupāda: Ag, yes. You can maintain thousand of cows.
Indian man (1): But that's actually best food, you know. In Punjab they use that. They store it for a year.
Prabhupāda: But you do not know how to be happy.
Indian man (1): Even this land, here they are producing sugarcane. So that is strong for wheat. They can grow plenty of wheat.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everything can be grown.
Cyavana: If sugarcane will grow, anything will grow. It's very fertile.
Indian man (1): Because they don't want to do anything, they simply plant the sugarcane and then they want rest for few months, simply getting money and taking and drinking.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Cyavana: This is the way to go up.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...this is a fact, that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the topmost yoga, and preach it. This is a fact. Except we, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nobody knows anything—all mūḍhas. Any association, any religion—all mūḍhas. But you must prove yourself. Otherwise it will be bigotry. If you simply say that "We are only first class" without any knowledge... You have to defend yourself. There will be so many opposing elements. Then you become first class. Your position is first class, but you have to maintain it. Otherwise, they will say "religious fanatics." Any opposition party, you have to meet. That is required.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to sit for some time here, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) (Devotees have been teasing Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa in background regarding his suggestion) He said, "Don't bring milk when water is required." I was just asking, you know.
Harikeśa: Don't bring milk when water is required. You have given the example.
Prabhupāda: Don't bring milk?
Devotees: When water is required.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: ...money is finished. And there is no use because they have lost India. For India they made all these arrangements. But that India is lost, so what is the use of maintaining? The Gibraltar also.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the ships would go around the south of Africa up to England. So they would maintain their shipping route. But now... That's a fact. They don't need it.
Prabhupāda: And that Suez Canal is closed, complete?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, it's open again. (break) It is not as Westernized as in a place like Nairobi.
Prabhupāda: The Africans are all thieves.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Here there is not as much stealing as in Nairobi. (break) I think they have had to amputate afterwards, mangled by the shore. It happens frequently. On some of the beaches here they've put up signs that "There are many sharks in the water. It is dangerous to bathe here." Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, "Amongst fish, I am the shark." (Prabhupāda chuckles) He shaved off his beard yesterday, this young boy. He shaved off. He had beard. He shaved off.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Further progress.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But now the Indian government—if this is true—they are giving visas to the devotees, and that means they are favorable towards the movement more and more.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It may be due to my interview with Indira Gandhi. I appealed to her that "No Indians are joining, and these Europeans, Americans, they are helping me. And if they are asked to go away, then how shall I maintain the establishment? Indians are not coming." So they might have studied that "They are not politician, and this movement... Everyone will appreciate God consciousness. They are doing something," this consideration. Otherwise it is surprising. They have given three years.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It is very surprising.
Prabhupāda: It is very, very surprising. (break)
Harikeśa: There may be some more information to come about that.
Prabhupāda: What is that other?
Harikeśa: I don't know, but...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: Navayogendra is not the official source.
Prabhupāda: Navayogendra, yes, why Navayogendra has said?
Harikeśa: I think he wants to remind you of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is coming from Navayogendra it is not to be relied so much. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Rascals. Except in India, there is no philosophy.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. There is no knowledge.
Prabhupāda: There is no knowledge. They are all in darkness. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, para, paropakara. These all rascals, they are in darkness. No knowledge. Don't you see? If they had any knowledge, how they are taking care of an ugly, diseased dog and killing their own child? Is that any knowledge? To maintain child is botheration, to kill. And to maintain three dozen dogs, all ugly and diseased, they are very much enthusiastic. Just see.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Because the dog will listen to them, but the children will not.
Prabhupāda: Not listen to them.
Harikeśa: Dog is man's best friend.
Prabhupāda: Yes, doglike man's. We don't keep dog. But we don't hate dog also. Let them keep their own position. In India still, they keep dog, but dog is not allowed to enter the room. No, outside. They are trained up in that way. When food is to be given, they will call, "Come on," and he will take food from outside and go away, always remain outside. Dog is never allowed to enter room or in the house. Outside compound, that's all. Still. No dog is allowed to enter the room and jump over the body of the master and sit down with the seat.
Prabhupāda: Everything mismanaged, cheating.
Harikeśa: So until the top man is Kṛṣṇa conscious, this cheating will basically continue.
Prabhupāda: Who is the top man? Everyone is top man. Instead of one king, now you have got one hundred kings. The minister, the secretaries, the under-secretaries, the deputy minister, and so on, so on, so on. So there was only one unfortunate king. Now you have got three dozen kings, and you have to maintain them like kings. This is going on.
Harikeśa: They can pay them with their phony money.
Prabhupāda: And they are seeking this post because they know that without doing anything, money will come. That's all. And as soon as you approach some minister, he will ask you, "All right, give me an application." And after six months' reminding, he will say, "No, it is not possible."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because so many people have to apply for any one post. That's a fact. Then he will put his son there.
Prabhupāda: All rogues and thieves.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You have no position. You cannot take the Western culture properly, and you have lost your own culture. This is India's bad luck. They never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. They were very much against higher education in the beginning. They wanted some clerks to conduct their activities, mercantile and government, some third-class, fourth-class men. Educated means ABCD, that's all. "They may know ABCD and take fifty, sixty rupees salary, and go home outside the town and come in daily passenger train, and work hard here and simply get your money so that you can maintain yourself." Nothing more. No education, no money, no industry. They were not taught properly. Here I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But Indian factories, go—it is hell. Hell, simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the capitalist class of India, they have learned how to exploit only.
Prabhupāda: In Bengal there is bird. Bengali is also. Every village is a garden like this, and these birds live in such nice garden. Bengal, it is now deserted. Otherwise wherever you go, it is garden. You have seen pukka?
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: When we go from Calcutta to Māyāpur, simply garden. All banana trees, all coconut trees, mango trees, nice green field. But they cannot maintain. Formerly they were maintaining. All gentlemen used to live within the village, they used to take care. Now all gentlemen, they have left. They have gone to the city. Only poor men are there. They cannot maintain.
Brahmānanda: We stopped one time at the home of that minister. He had his home on that road with big gardens.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Tarun.
Brahmānanda: Tarun Kanti Ghosh. Lush gardens, big lake. That was the Bengal system. Big, big lakes, garden. Unless respectable rich men live in the village... Just like this. This is a nice garden because government is maintaining. So unless there are rich men, who will maintain? Poor men cannot maintain. It is cloudy today. But in..., climate is nice, very pleasant.
Jñāna: From day to day it is changing.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Jñāna: From day to day it is changing. Even this afternoon it may be very clear.
Prabhupāda: This city park is very big.
Prabhupāda: Whatever you say, there are many. Cells are not living entities. (break)
Cyavana: That's the beginning. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...come gradually. But this particular body belongs to a particular living entity.
Jñāna: Actually, my doubt was about the cells, whether they were living entities or... (break)
Prabhupāda: Living entity quits this body, no other living entity will be able to...
Cyavana: Maintain.
Prabhupāda: It belongs to the particular. That is the rascal philosophy of the rascal scientists. They say some chemical is missing. Why chemical missing? There are so many other living entities, how they are living? If the chemical is missing, how they are living? This is rascaldom. If you say when the body is dead, the chemical is missing, then why so many hundreds and thousands of microbes are coming? Huh? (Hindi) Therefore I say rascals. (end)
Prabhupāda: Avarana. He is in the most abominable condition, and he is thinking he is very happy. This is avaranatmika, covering him to see in the real position. Otherwise we are asking everyone that "You come here. I am giving you room. Take prasādam. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Read these books." "No. Why shall I come?" What is the difficulty here? But nobody will come. He will rot in the home-anxiety—how to maintain, how to... This is going on. This is called prakṣepatmika, avaranātmika. He will prefer rotting as hog and dog, but he will never prefer to live as Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is māyā. So many people are there on the beach. You invite them, "Please come to our place. Live nicely. We shall give you nice room, nice prasādam. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Nobody will come.
Dr. Patel: It is good that they are not coming. Otherwise you won't have this place...
Prabhupāda: No, no. We have enough place. We are not depending on Dr. Patel, but Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)
Devotees: Haribol! Haribol!
Dr. Patel: You rate me very badly.
Prabhupāda: No, because you are saying like that. You do not know that I started this business without nothing, you see, with practical nothing. I offered Mr. Nair that "I will give you two lakhs, and the balance I'll give you in three years." So who will believe? "He is a beggar, and he promises to give me fifteen lakhs of rupees within three years." Who will believe that? He knew that "He will not be able to pay. So whatever two lakhs, three lakhs he gives, that will be mine. That's all. Bas." And I was thinking, "He is such a nice gentleman that he will take money, little, little, and I will collect and pay. He is a nice gentleman," I was thinking. And he was thinking, "He's a great fool, (laughter) that he is offering me two lakhs, three lakhs, and he will never be able to pay me balance." So this was the transaction beginning.
| Page Title: | Maintain (Conversations 1969 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 08 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=121, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 121 |