Lower stage (Conversations)

Expressions researched:
"low stage" |"lower stage" |"lower stages" |"lowest stage" |"lowest stages"

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1971, Delhi:

Viśākhā: What happens to the jīva souls who were fruits and vegetables that were offered to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is jīva also. I say that even vegetable you are killing, but that killing responsibility goes to Kṛṣṇa. We are killing for Kṛṣṇa. Suppose in the vegetable there is life, but we are preparing food for Kṛṣṇa.

Nara-Nārāyaṇa: I think she wants to know what happens to the soul. Supposing that a plant, we are killing the plant and offering in prasādam to Kṛṣṇa. The jīva soul who is living in the plant, what happens to him?

Prabhupāda: Because he is killed for Kṛṣṇa's purpose so he gets immediately liberation.

Devotee (lady): This is a very sinful life they're living unless we offer everything to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Not anything. Kṛṣṇa, whatever says (indistinct). Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). You can offer these things which is asked by Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: Do they just get liberation or do they go directly to Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee: They go to Kṛṣṇa or do they only get liberation? Do they go to Goloka Vṛndāvana?

Devotee: What kind of liberation?

Prabhupāda: Well, liberation not always means that he goes directly. In the lower stage liberation means to come out of the lower stage to the human form of body. Then he gets chance for directly serving Kṛṣṇa, then real liberation takes place. (break) (indistinct) All right. (end)

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest (5): Sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ.

Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is the sva-dharma. Sva-dharma, that is for the lower stage. Sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ. You have got a brahminical body. All right, discharge your duties as brāhmaṇa. But he's not doing that.

Guest (5): So he's not performing his sva-dharma.

Prabhupāda: No!

Guest (5): And that's why it is dangerous for him.

Prabhupāda: It is dangerous. He's already... A brāhmaṇa is doing śūdra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brāhmaṇa- like, you do like, act like brāhmaṇa. Janma-karma, uh, guṇa-karma. So you have got good qualification of the brāhmaṇas. Now act like brāhmaṇa. Then your life is succ... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You act as a brāhmaṇa and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varṇāśramācaravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you strictly act as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, it doesn't matter. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46).

Room Conversation with Sir Alistair Hardy -- July 21, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So why a human being should be like one species of animal?

Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, er, man should gradually grow out of that. I agree. Yes.

Prabhupāda: That means he's in lowest stage, animal stage. Who is killing, that means he's in animal stage. So how he can see God? Can animal, cats and dogs, can see God? That's not possible. How the animals can see God?

Sir Alistair Hardy: Well, we don't know at all what...

Prabhupāda: No...

Sir Alistair Hardy: We can't...

Prabhupāda: Your Bible is meant for not the cats and dogs. It is meant for the human beings.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That gentleman I talked to, he was also very intelligent. John. But this thing is meant for intelligent class men. Because in the jñānīs, they are also in the third grade, so how much in the position of the bhakta? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one gets the brahma-jñāna, brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and identifies himself, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I'm Brahman," so, prasannātmā: immediately he gets relief of all material anxiety. He has nothing to do with this material world. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Then he can see everyone on the equal level. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). After being brahma-bhūta, then he can begin bhakti. This is the position of the bhaktas. The real bhaktas, śuddha-bhaktas, unalloyed bhaktas. Bhaktas, they have got three stages-kaniṣṭha, madhyama, and uttama. First, at least one comes to the madhyama-adhikārī, not to remain in the lowest stage, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So an urge for understanding God, there is, after struggle for material sense gratification. Bodily concept of life means material sense gratification. The Western world is after that, material sense gratification. One who is little advanced, he wants to know more than material sense gratification. That is good sign and those who are simply absorbed in material sense gratification, they are in the lower stage of animal life. So what is the present civilization, Western, what is your opinion? What they are for?

Guest (2): I don't know actually. I'm a doc. I'm trying to find some answer but what difference does it make? Suppose a person thinks of God all his life and dies, and a person who doesn't think of God at all also dies. What is our life after death?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Then why do we have to think of God? Why do we have to forget about the material world?

Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that there is life after death.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- October 3, 1975, Mauritius:

Prahupada: That is going on. Just like Mother Yaśodā. She would chastise Kṛṣṇa. But you will never find Nanda Mahārāja is ever chastising. Rather, when Kṛṣṇa was chastised, Nanda Mahārāja would come back and take Him on the lap: "All right, I shall punish Your mother," and call him (her?), chastise. And then Kṛṣṇa will stop His mouth: "No, no. Don't do this." It is natural that when the child is in the lower stage, minor stage, the mother takes more care. That is natural. (break) Such a big planet, sun, six months rotating on the northern side of the equator, six months on the southern side. It is never changed. Why?

Brahmānanda: It's an accident. (laughs)

Cyavana: The sun doesn't change?

Prabhupāda: No, the uttarāyana. Now it is passing on the northern...

Brahmānanda: Now it's on the southern?

Morning Walk -- November 21, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Yaśomatī-nandana: It appears that we came to Kṛṣṇa consciousness even though we were in a very low stage.

Prabhupāda: That is the process, but if somebody comes to Kṛṣṇa with some material motive, he also becomes... (break) ...civilization and other civilization.

Dr. Patel: Sir, let us first describe what is civilization.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dr. Patel: Let us, I mean, think about what is first civilization.

Prabhupāda: Civilization means advance from animal life.

Dr. Patel: That is the difference between other civilizations and Vedic civilization.

Prabhupāda: Huh? So what is that difference, that I am asking.

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 6, 1976, Nellore:

Acyutānanda: No, that is only during His avatāra He says that.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. He says like that; we have to accept it. Bhagavad-gītā as it is.

Acyutānanda: In the lower stage.

Prabhupāda: Lower stage not.... That is.... You are in the lower stage. You cannot understand. But what He says, that is right. Mamaivāṁśaḥ, sanātana, "eternally amara." It is not that made aṁśa at the present time. Sanātana. From.... From the very beginning.

Acyutānanda: Then it is contradictory.

Prabhupāda: No contradictory. It is not contradictory. He says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7), that "These jīvas, they are eternally My aṁśa." It is not that because now in the material world it has become fragmented.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1976, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: There are so many stages. Here is the highest status. Govinda-viraheṇa me. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa. "For want of Govinda, I am thinking one moment as twelve years." Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam. "I'm crying like torrents of rain from my eyes." This is the highest necessity. This is also necessity. Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛ.... Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvam. "I don't see anything. Everything is vacant." And that we have experience. If somebody whom you love very much, he dies, you think, "I don't want anything. World is vacant." I've no necessity but Kṛṣṇa. This is also necessity. So we have to see first of all necessity, then quality of necessity. This is .... There is no necessity means dull matter. Similarly, when there is no necessity of God, one is in the lowest stage of life, narādhama, animal, less than animal, narādhama, at least, lowest of mankind. If he does not feel the necessity of God, that means lowest of mankind. Necessity of Caitanya Mahāprabhu also.... Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣay... A Vaiṣṇava says that "I have no more necessity." But he has no more necessity of this false necessities, material world.

Morning Walk -- June 7, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Mostly. They have no knowledge. Material. Prākṛta-sahajiyā. Their real name is prākṛta. Their thoughts are on this material platform. Just as they are preferring this conjugal love because here the sex is prominent. They are thinking that is the highest stage. What is the lowest stage here, they're taking that as the highest stage. In the.... Of course, in the spiritual world there is such thing, but as Kṛṣṇa has many other līlās, why they are not attracted to other līlās?

Rāmeśvara: They don't want to be limited. They think that Kṛṣṇa is the kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). So why...

Prabhupāda: That is good.

Garden Conversation -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So instead of becoming devotee, he wants to become God. And that is the problem. But it is the most confidential part of knowledge. Instead of carrying out the orders of God, he wants to order God. You see? Even in the lower stages of devotion, that mentality continues, that "God is order-supplier. If God carries my order, then I accept God. Otherwise I reject Him." In Germany... One of my German Godbrothers, he told me in 1935 that in the last world war, many people became atheists. They went to the church and prayed, especially women, "My husband may come back," "My brother may come back," or "My father may come back." Because all men went to the war field, and the women were there, they prayed in the churches. But nobody came back, and they became atheists. That means they took God as order-supplier. They ordered God, "Return my father. Return my brother. Return my husband," and God did not return. "Ah, there is no God. I don't care." This is going on. God is order-supplier. But our philosophy is God is not order-supplier; we are order-carriers of God. Anukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśilanaṁ bhaktir uttamā (CC Madhya 19.167).

Garden Conversation -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: One should give up his company. And another rascal who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's all, finished. So if you want to be a Vaiṣṇava, you must give up the company of these two rascals. Then your progress is guaranteed. Everything is there. There is no difficulty to distinguish between rascals and intelligent, guru and bluffer. Everything is there. And to become a perfect Vaiṣṇava, Caitanya Mahāprabhu said asat-saṅga tyāga ei vaiṣṇava. Don't talk even with these rascals. But sometimes in the preaching work we have to talk with such rascals, but not to take their theory but to teach them our theory. If you become defeated by their theory, then you are not a preacher. Don't preach, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You are not fit for teaching. If you become overcome by their teaching, then you are finished. A preacher is madhyama-adhikārī, advanced devotee. He can preach. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be engaged in temple worship, very nicely, then gradually he'll come to the madhyama-adhikārī. So the preacher is madhyama-adhikārī. A kaniṣṭha-adhikārī cannot become preacher. He is in the lowest stage of devotional service; he cannot become preacher. He'll be conquered by the asat. And madhyama-adhikārī, he knows how to deal with asat.

Garden Conversation -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramātmā understanding little higher. And Bhagavān understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Māyāvādīs, they do not try to understand Kṛṣṇa. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta (SB 10.2.32). Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky... Go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say "so'ham," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky. Will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible.

Room Conversation -- August 8, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Yes. The more you become eager to know God, God will reveal Himself. From our side, we should not be stereotyped. People in different sects of religion, they say, "We believe." But they do not want to go further than they believe. That is very difficult. You must be dynamic and progressive, then you will have. I have talked with many sects, especially Christian priests. They will say "We believe," no more further than that. So knowledge is not like that. Knowledge must be progressive. "We believe there is no soul of the animal"—bas, fixed up. You believe like a rascal, so I shall remain rascal. What is this? We should be progressive. That is wanted. Of course, in the lower stage one may have a type of belief, but if you want more clearly, you must be progressive. According to Vedānta system, the life, human life, is only for inquiring about Brahman. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. We shall talk again.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jñānagamya: Is it very contaminating?

Prabhupāda: Not contaminating, not in the highest stage. That is not contaminating. If the devotee wants liberation, then they're in the lower stage. Actually, a devotee, he is already liberated. Why he shall aspire after liberation?

Jñānagamya: Pure devotee's liberated.

Prabhupāda: Therefore when he's purified, he's already liberated. There is no question of his aspiring after liberation. He's already liberated. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).

Ātreya Ṛṣi: If the devotee's purified, he's convinced that if he becomes purified he will be free.

Morning Walk -- August 14, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Certainly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Kṛṣṇa never said māṁsād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never said. This is artificial. In the lower stage of human civilization when they cannot produce food they do not know how to do it, so the animals are killed. What can they do? But actual food is anna, food grains. Even for the animals. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Yajñād bhavati bhū... So there is no yajña. There is no yajña. So this saṅkīrtana-yajña is the only yajña in Kali-yuga. So if they perform, everything is all right. There will be cloud, there will be rain.

Dr. Patel: Yajña karma samudbhava.(?)

Prabhupāda: Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). In the Kali-yuga, the other yajñas are not possible. First of all, there is no yājñika-brāhmaṇa and paraphernalia, so many things. Perhaps if we perform yajña and pour ghee on it, immediately government arrest. Ghee can be produced immense. I have studied. Immensely, you can produce, by keeping cows. Kṛṣṇa has recommended, go-rakṣya. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. The go-rakṣya is essential. It is not that animal slaughter stopping, no. Kṛṣṇa could have said paśu-rakṣya. No, Kṛṣṇa has not said. Go-rakṣya. Those who are animal eaters, they can indulge in eating other insignificant animals.

Room Conversation with Life Member, Mr. Malhotra -- December 22, 1976, Poona:

Mr. Malhotra: Suppose guru desires that my disciple should rise higher than me.

Prabhupāda: That means he is in lower stage. That you have to accept first of all.

Mr. Malhotra: Like as a father sees that his children grow.

Prabhupāda: Yes, still father begets father, and a child cannot become father.

Mr. Malhotra: Father begets father but he feels that he may, will progress...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Father may want to see that the son is equally qualified, but still the father is father, and child is child. That is perpetual. Similarly, a part and parcel of God may be very powerful, but that does not mean that he has become God.

Mr. Malhotra: Other traditions, guru disciple, then the disciple becomes guru, then disciple. The gurus may change.

Prabhupāda: They cannot change. If there are change of guru, the disciple acts, but does not, he'll never say that I have become equal or one with guru. That is not so.

Room Conversation with Life Member, Mr. Malhotra -- December 22, 1976, Poona:

Mr. Malhotra: Good man.

Prabhupāda: Good man from worldly point of view, but from spiritual point of view, in the lowest stage. Karmī is the lowest stage. Then jñānī, then yogi, then bhakta.

Mr. Malhotra: More a politician.

Prabhupāda: Yes, karmī means this how to enjoy this world. Whole life they have struggled how to enjoy this, how to enjoy myself, how to allow my men to enjoy. This is karmī platform. Everyone is doing that. Everyone is working hard for himself, for his family, and expand the family, for society, and expand the society, for the nation. Here is karmī plan. Gandhi, Birla they are all... There is no question of spiritual life.

Mr. Malhotra: Now this is the Kṛṣṇā River. You just see how small it is, and how big it becomes later on. In the rainy season this road is closed because this all water comes up, you know. Now it is just a small rivulet. This is Kṛṣṇā river. And it comes just opposite our place, from where it starts, from the mountain. Here is the place called Haya (?). This was also one of the biggest Sanskrit University in the older time like that of Teksasila. And Sarnatha, near Sarnatha, what is that place? Not Sarnatha, up in Bihar, that was also very big university, no?

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Yogi Amrit Desai of Kripalu Ashram (PA USA) -- January 2, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Soul. Spiritual body is now covered with the material body. So anything material, that will not exist. So body is finished; then he has to find new body. Just like the dress is old; it is finished, you take another dress. And when you haven't got to take dress, or this material body, and you remain in your spiritual body, that is called mukti. That can be achieved only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām (BG 9.25). If you practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness then it is possible; otherwise not. Tyaktvā deham. Everyone has to give up because this body will be old, and one has to give it up. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9), he doesn't accept any more material body. Then? What does he...? He's finished? No, he's not finished. Mām eti. He becomes eligible to go back home back to Godhead, and there he dances with Kṛṣṇa. That is real mukti. Muktir hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. Anyathā rūpam. Now this rūpa is not spiritual, it is material. And mukti means when he gives up this material body and no more accepts any material body, he is transferred to the spiritual world to play with Kṛṣṇa, to dance with Kṛṣṇa, to talk with Kṛṣṇa. That is real... Paramaṁ siddhi. Mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). (break) And so long one is the material things, he... The lowest stage is the karmīs, the little higher stage, jñānī, and little higher stage, yogi. And the highest stage? Bhakti-yogī.

Room Conversation -- January 28, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Not all of them. But they are also claiming they're on the stage of Rūpa Gosvāmī. We are preaching—we are lower stage. That is their opinion. We are preaching all over the world; we are in the lower stage. And because he has imitated the dress of Rūpa Gosvāmī, mālā, tilaka, and he's manufacturing biḍi-he's higher. This is going on. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has condemned these rascals—that kali-celā—"the disciple of Kali." Ei ota eka kali-celā.(?) Here is a disciple of Kali. Who? Nāke tilaka galāi mālā. And sahajiyā bhajana kache mamu, saṅge lana pare bala.(?) He has tilaka and mālā, and sahajiyā, with other girls he's making parakīyā-rasa-bhajana. Kali-celā. Ei ota eka kali-celā. So we have to guided by our predecessor ācāryas. Then we shall be saved. Otherwise we are condemned.

Conversation: Vairagya, Salaries, and Political Etiquette -- April 28, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Lower stage. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). That... There is one verse written by Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. What page I don't... Śikṣārtham. The bhakti-yoga, nija-bhakti-yoga... Bhakti-yoga means devotion to Kṛṣṇa. And that is vairāgya-vidyā, how to learn, renounce this world. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave up His gṛhastha life? He's the same person. Why Rūpa Gosvāmī gave up their ministership? By their personal behavior they are showing this is not required. This is vairāgya-vidyā. So under the circumstances, those who have no vairāgya, they cannot live in the temple. They are taking advantage of the temple facilities for their sense enjoyment. Do you understand?