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Leaders (Conversations, 1974 - 1975)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 7, 1974, Los Angeles:

Bali Mardana: Also I was thinking to have a large scale propaganda in all the college newspapers.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali Mardana: Specifically. To attract...

Prabhupāda: The same, one advertisement. What is the...?

Karandhara: "Real leaders of human society."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That... You have seen that design I have given?

Karandhara: No, I haven't seen it.

Prabhupāda: Oh, it is not yet done?

Karandhara: No, it's being worked on.

Prabhupāda: Hm. You can give him the rough idea. That will be very nice propaganda, to select real leaders of the society. The... We are misled by rascal leaders. That is the difficulty, all rascals. If the society is led by real, learned scholars, then it will be nice. Qualified leaders. That is wanted. Leader means better qualified man to lead others. That is leader. Leader does not mean he is himself a fool and leading other fools.

Morning Walk -- January 12, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: :...accepting a leader, one has to consider what is the position of the leader. They do not take such account. Now they calculate if the leader is very cunning, then he is qualified. They think that politics means cheating, cunning, bluffing. That is good qualification. Lloyd George, sometimes before he came, he said, "Consistency in politics is the qualification of an ass." He must be inconsistent. And here, this is defense. Tasya vartamānasya.

Morning Walk -- January 12, 1974, Los Angeles:

Umāpati: Should we also try to introduce legislation immediately to close the slaughterhouses?

Prabhupāda: No. If you want good men, good leader, you must be free from all these, I mean, sinful activities. Otherwise there is no question of good leader, or good man. There is no question. First principle is this. Just like a patient, he must abide by the prescription, that "You must do this, you must do not this." Then there is cure. And simply if he goes on in his own way, then there is no value of consulting a physician. So the first program is that "If you want really good leader and if you want to become yourself also good, then you must give up these four sinful activities. Otherwise, all your scheme will be failure."

Morning Walk -- January 12, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They agree. Then automatically, slaughterhouse will be closed. If there is no customer for meat, then slaughterhouse will be closed. Just like Gandhi started this movement, non-cooperation, "Don't cooperate with the British government." That was his... Because the Britishers were ruling India with the cooperation of the Indians. Otherwise, how they could rule? The soldiers were Indian, the police were Indian, the secretariat, office, clerks, they were Indians—all Indians. But they manufactured in such a way that they were cooperating. So Gandhi took the route that "You non-cooperate; then the Britishers will automatically go away." That was his movement. Similarly, if we educate public that "You must find out a leader who is free from these sinful activities. Then you will be happy. And you also give up. Otherwise, how you will be able to select such a leader?" This should be our real propaganda. Otherwise they will think that "They're against our real joyful life.

Morning Walk -- January 15, 1974, Hawaii:

Satsvarūpa: ...real leaders don't spoil life.

Bali Mardana: Yeah, I saw the plan. It's nice.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bali Mardana: I saw the plans for it; it's very nice. (break)

Prabhupāda: Also clear water like this.

Morning Walk -- January 18, 1974, Hawaii:

Prabhupāda: The bug is also there. The mosquito is also there. The leader is also there. So, so many bodies, they are in the same room, but the enjoyment is not the same. Leaser's enjoyment is not exactly like the occupier of the room.

Room Conversation -- February 6, 1974, Vrndavana:

Guru dāsa: Because blind leaders, we have allowed bribery to come about. In the passport line you have to stand because they suspect one thief. Every man who is a gentleman also has to stand and be inspected. It's Kali-yuga.

Guest (1): One thing is there, when I am worried about this thing or that thing, this is the place where I get peace of mind. I forget everything.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact.

Guest (1): And I don't come here with any expectation, not for liberation or anyone or anything, this or that. I, what I get...

Prabhupāda: If you're getting...

Morning Walk -- March 6, 1974, Mayapura:

Siddha-svarūpānanda: All the scientists and leaders are all like that. They don't have the vaguest idea. They don't have the vaguest idea...

Prabhupāda: Therefore we...

Siddha-svarūpānanda: ...of anything.

Prabhupāda: ...call them rascals and fools. They may advertise themselves as scientists, but we take them as rascals and fools.

Morning Walk -- March 7, 1974, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Then everything is there. You haven't got to manufacture anything. And the Bhagavad-gītā is the gist idea of all Vedic culture. And our propaganda is to establish that gist idea of Bhagavad-gītā. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So therefore I am asking. "What is the politics of Kṛṣṇa?" Kṛṣṇa's politics was to have a king of the world which..., Kṛṣṇa conscious, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That is the Kṛṣṇa's politics. He wanted to replace. So the first politic is to replace these so-called leaders, demons. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Where is that land? This land?

Jayapatākā: We already walked over it.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Morning Walk -- March 9, 1974, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: All the big, big leaders, they wanted to keep themselves economically fit, but when death came, they had to surrender. "Yes sir, (Bengali)"

Guest (4): Many leaders are economically...

Prabhupāda: They do not... They're not leaders. I say they're rascals.

Guest (4): They do not live here, and they must...

Prabhupāda: All these leaders, I must say clearly, they're all rascals, misleaders. Not only in our country, all over the world. Therefore we have started this movement, who is real leader?

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Ātreya-ṛṣi: So in our Movement, the leaders must decide how every devotee and every resource is engaged properly.

Prabhupāda: That is leadership. That is leadership. The... Which man is fitted for which work.

Morning Walk -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Bhagavān: A leader must be very expert so that people would be happy in their engagement.

Prabhupāda: Everyone should be expert. The leaders must be expert and the worker must be expert so that they may follow the instruction of the leader. If the leader says something and the workers, "Hm, I shall consider it, later on," then how the leader will execute his leadership? Both of them should be cooperating and know that "We are all working for Kṛṣṇa." Somebody was coming back and going...

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: Say, for example, someone was a, a kṣatriya by inclination, or a...?

Prabhupāda: No, inclination can be changed also. If one has got little ad... But we should take little advantage of the inclination. Not that... That is to be decided by the... Inclination or no inclination, we can... That will be done. That is not very difficult. This is a most important item. Because people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by the so-called leaders. Therefore varṇāśrama college is required. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So that is Vaiṣṇava's business. So the Vaiṣṇava, therefore, will have no politics. Politics means planning for one's own happiness. That is politics. So in our society there should be no diplomacy, no politics. Everyone should be eager how to do good to others. That is Vaiṣṇava. If he's planning something, that "I shall be leader," "I shall be doing something," that is not Vaiṣṇavism. That politics is not good.

Morning Walk -- March 17, 1974, Vrndavana:

Balavanta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes (break) ...assistants selected, so many sannyāsīs, and do it. You take the leaders.

Balavanta: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...idea.

Balavanta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is intelligence. (break) And we shall pollute the whole world with this nuisance.

Morning Walk -- March 17, 1974, Vrndavana:

Balavanta: The man in Bombay, government leader.

Prabhupāda: There are many parties in Bombay, kīrtana parties. You have to organize them and bring them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa everywhere. Create this nuisance. And Maharashtra is the country of Tukārāma. He organized kīrtana. Still the Tukārāma kīrtana parties are there. Viṭṭhala. Viṭṭhala means Kṛṣṇa. And ideal gosvāmī should remain here to challenge these false gosvāmīs. But if you also become false, then you cannot challenge. (break) ...have come, we can talk with them. Mr. Gupta, your pathaks (?), they have come. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jayo. (Hindi) (break) ...have sufficient quantity of grains, then you are dhanavān. This is all false, so-called dhanavān. (Hindi) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). If you want to flourish, you must have sufficient grains. Where is that grain? Some... (Hindi) Lecture. What is that lecture? Where is anna? (break) (Hindi) This is going on. (Prabhupāda describes in Hindi how Bhāgavatam describes the present government leaders as dogs, hogs, camels and asses; and other topics) Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). This is the only... (Hindi) Our movement is Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Everyone knows.

Room Conversation -- March 20, 1974, Bombay:

Guest: So therefore... You see, the authors of the śāstras... śāstra big authors who are good so-called leaders and same, those who have faith in the śāstras, but the government which is so-called secular or pro-muslim and the pro-communist...

Prabhupāda: No, no, they, they may be secular, but they cannot neglect your one śāstra.

Guest: Therefore they are neglecting it. They should not neglect it. They should not...

Prabhupāda: So that is to be decided by the court.

Morning Walk -- March 23, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Wife and others.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. And land, "This is my country, this is my home, this is ijya," bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Ijya means worshipable. As all these leaders, so-called nationalists, they are under the concept of this body, and their country, their home, is worshipable.

Morning Walk -- March 25, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: I will let them come and see.

Prabhupāda: If you, actually you are leader, then you induce them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in the factory.

Guest (1): Oh, you'll get great sales.

Dr. Patel: Of course, of course. Why not? Why not?

Prabhupāda: Whatever factories are already there, you begin chanting there.

Morning Walk -- March 26, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: You sometimes call me a very intelligent man and other times you call me a dud. Now who am I? I forget myself. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). The so-called, the so-called big, big leaders, big, big philosophers, and big, big scholars, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being or "There was no Kṛṣṇa." Just see how much mūḍha they are.

Morning Walk -- March 27, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That we are also thinking, "There is no Kṛṣṇa. There is no background." We are also thinking. (chuckles) Although we are big, big leaders, we are simply imitators of the westerners. That's all. Western people are our father and mother. That is our modern Indian... Now, western people are drinking wine. Now the government is drinking. Gandhi stopped it, but "No, the western people do." Unless they drink wine, they cannot be very... They work...

Morning Walk -- March 27, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Only the... People everywhere, all over the world, they are all good. Only the leaders make them bad. That's all. That is my opinion. Misleaders. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). The so-called śreṣṭha, leaders, they... Just like in India. When Gandhi was there it was prohibition, and now there is wine shop every step. It is due to the leaders. People, people, what the innocent people, what they'll do?

Dr. Patel: You are talking of this, but I am the knower of the private character of so many businessman.

Prabhupāda: Why you know? Everyone knows.

Morning Walk -- March 27, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: But yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad itaro janaḥ (BG 3.21).

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have become śreṣṭha. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Blind men have become the leader of the blind men. That is the difficulty. And if you want to open their eyes, they will say, "No sanction for temple. Get out." Murkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). This is the position.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: ...on that point I'm going to (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: These rascals, asuras, they do not know what is the goal of life. But in which way we should direct? These rascals, they do not know. Still, they become public leaders, asuras. Na viduḥ. How to dissuade people to stop this? Just like we are doing: no illicit sex. Nivṛtti. Nivṛtti. No illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating. This is nivṛtti. And pravṛtti, take to Kṛṣṇa. This is pravṛtti, nivṛtti. But the rascal demons, leaders, they do not know these things. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na viduḥ asura-jana (BG 16.7). They do not know it. Still, they become leaders. They do not know in which way people should be directed, and still they claim to be public leaders.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Indian man: Na ācāro na satyaṁ te śuddha vidyate.

Prabhupāda: Na ācāraḥ. Personally they also do not do anything, ah? They're addict, they addict to drinking, addict to prostitution, and they, by votes, they become leaders. So how people will be happy? Asura-jana. They live by asura-jana. This is the whole chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. They, they are making their plan. What is their plan-making? Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye manoratham. This is the only plan. "Now I have got this bank balance, and tomorrow further increase, and tomorrow increase." Increase, increase, his life decreased, and kicked out of this...

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: This is the disease, material disease. Here is Kṛṣṇa, the perfect leader, and they're going this side, that leader, that leader, that leader. Why? The perfect leader is there, His instruction is there, in all fields of life, any field of life. And ultimately spiritual realization. But they will not take it. They'll not take. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Where is your book? You can read.

Morning Walk -- March 30, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...difficulty. All rascals, they have become leaders. They have no knowledge, and they become leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaos.

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Now, here, here the real problem is jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya. But they are, these people, they are engaged in paltry things. The real business is how to become free from the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). They do not know that. Real, real purpose of life they do not know. Take any big leader. He does not know what is the aim of life. What is the problem of life, he does not know. Mūḍha na abhijānanti, mūḍha māṁ nābhijānanti.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: They fall down from their own position.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya, śūdra. If you are conscious that "I have to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead according to my capacity of work," then he'll not fall down. He'll not fall down. (break) ...fall down from the position, then it is dead society. It is not living society. At the present moment. Yes. If you don't find actual brāhmaṇa, don't find actual kṣatriya, don't find actual vaiśya, so all śūdras. And there is no guide. Therefore chaotic condition. (break) ...ship without rudder? What is called? Yes. They do not know what is the aim of life. Ask any leader. The leader, he says, "No, this aim of life is to drink and enjoy. That's all." This is going on. After diplomacy, politics, when they are tired, they go to the hotel or club and enjoy and drink. That's all.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: They give it free of charge in the...

Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is no question of tapasya now. Therefore the whole population is pigs, hogs and dogs. How you can expect peace and prosperity in this society? That is not possible. It is a society of pigs and hogs. Śva-viḍ... Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. If somebody says, "If the..., it is a society of pigs and hogs, then what about these leaders?"

Morning Walk -- April 5, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (break) ...leaders, they are entering into the mouth of the kāla just like insects. "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" Although within their lifetime they were very, very big leaders, but they are entering into the mouth of the kāla just like insects and flies. That's it. (break) ...plans, but there is no plan how to stop...

Dr. Patel: Death.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, how to stop this forceful entering into the mouth of the kāla. Just like a very good example: When there is fire and all the insects and flies, "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" That's it. Attracted by the beauty. Similarly, all these big, big leaders, being attracted, bahir-artha-māninaḥ... They have been described in Bhāgavata, bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking this beautiful nature as everything, "There is no other thing."

Morning Walk -- April 5, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: They are śūṣka Vedāntists.

Prabhupāda: No. They are rascals, simply rascals, not śūṣka Vedāntists. Vedāntist is... His father is also not Vedāntist. They do not know what is Vedānta. Simply rascals. That is our propaganda, that why you accept these rascals as leader?

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa, dini-Kṛṣṇa. That is our protest. You accept Kṛṣṇa and be led by Him. The path is clear. (break) ...simply advertising that "You are searching after some leader. Take this leader, Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. "We have taken. You also take." We don't say anybody else, no. We are fools. We do not know if there is anybody. So we are fools. Let us remain like a fool like that and follow Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: They were ministers. Their associates were big, big personalities, maṇḍala-pati. Big, big leaders. Maṇḍala-pati means big, big leaders. Just like in Indian villages, still there is one man, chief man, he is called maṇḍala. Or there are many maṇḍalas, and there is one head, maṇḍala-pati. So tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ. He was meeting with big, big zamindars, big, big leaders, big, big... Because he was minister. So he gave up all this association. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala. Not one, two, but many, he gave up. "What is the value of this association? What is the value? They are not Kṛṣṇa conscious." So gave up. Tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat. "What is the value of these things?" Tuccha-vat. Bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Just to show favor to the mass of people he became a mendicant. Dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā. Just like Gandhi also did that. Although he was the greatest leader, he was living like a mendicant, one loincloth. That's all.

Morning Walk -- April 13, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: All the leaders.

piśācī paile yena mati-cchana haya
māyār grasta jīvera se dāsa upajaya

(break) ...must have undergone severe austerities and penances and developed his spiritual consciousness. Then he can be priest. Not any man with a sacred thread and ganta, belling, becomes a priest. (break) ...priestly class, all rotten class. In Christian world also—drunkards, nonsense, woman-hunters, and they are priests. So also in India. Any man with a two paisa worth sacred thread, he becomes a brāhmaṇa and priest.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So at the present moment, the godless civilization... Therefore the leaders, they do not know how to lead people so that they may become happy. It is the duty of the leader, government, father, teacher, gurus, to see that the subordinates are very, very happy. We find in the history of Mahābhārata that during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira people were not suffering even from excessive heat or cold or any anxiety. So it is the duty of the leaders of the people and the government to see that the citizens are perfectly happy in their occupational duties and they are advancing in spiritual knowledge, because human life is not to live a polished animal life. That is not human life.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So they are doing very successfully. People are accepting. They are criticizing the so-called leaders. After Nixon, people are disgusted with the so-called leaders. So we are teaching them what kind of leaders should be selected. The king, the public leader, the brāhmaṇa, and... At least these three men, they should be free from the four kinds of sinful activities. If they are personally sinful, how they can lead other people? That is not possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a man is himself blind man, how he can lead other blind men? That is not... It is dangerous for both of them. So the leaders, the politicians, the king, the brāhmaṇa, they should be very much pure, without any sinful tinge of life. And the pillars of sinful life is illicit sex life and meat-eating and intoxication and gambling. Now, unfortunately, the leaders are teaching people how to enjoy illicit sex life, meat-eating and intoxication. Then how the society can be happy? It is not possible.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Guest (8): How do they respond in China?

Prabhupāda: Yes, China also. They also receive very nicely. They are intel... Everywhere the people are always good. They are made bad by the leaders. That's all.

Guest (9): You know, it sticks in the mind, about the leaders and the government, you said it. Is the duty of the leaders of the government to see the people are happy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Guest (5): Is it the failure of our spiritual leaders?

Prabhupāda: What is a spiritual leader? First of all we have to think..., if the businessman is not spiritual leader.

Guest (6): So you mean the lack of spiritual leadership has driven us to this state of affairs?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there have been so many. Just like Bhagavad-gītā, it is standard book. The so-called spiritual leaders, they give different interpretation. Why different interpretation? One interpretation is there. Anyone can understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is plain thing, Kṛṣṇa says that "You always think of Me."

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Interpretation is required when a thing you cannot understand. But if a thing is clearly understood, why you interpret to mislead the leader? That is our protest. It is clearly understood. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Then what right you have got to say that "It is not Kṛṣṇa; it is something else"? That has misled our country. Do you admit or not? This misinterpretation. Why should you misinterpret in the Bhagavad-gītā? If you have got a different philosophy, you can write your own books, but why through Bhagavad-gītā? This is very dangerous. This is very, very dangerous.

Morning Walk -- April 23, 1974, Hyderabad:

Akṣayānanda: Whenever we see those four rules...

Prabhupāda: These rascals, they cannot give up even smoking, ordinary thing. And they become leader.

Mahāṁsa: It is not very difficult to give up. If one is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is not difficult to give up these four things.

Prabhupāda: Not at all. Very easily, in one second. If you have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo... (BG 18.66). These are sinful activities. Immediately Kṛṣṇa will help you, "All right." Immediately. Kṛṣṇa said. Is He bluffing? If you sincerely take to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, immediately the effect will be you give up all this nonsense.

Morning Walk -- April 24, 1974, Hyderabad:

Satsvarūpa: He thinks that he's going to win. (break)

Prabhupāda: ... that these rascal leaders, they cannot give us any comfort. All over the world. Here in the Gujarat, the students have insulted the leader, you know? So horribly, they have dragged the prime minister, chief minister, dragged him and set up and seated on an ass's back. In this way he was insulted.

Morning Walk -- April 24, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Then they will be very much pleased. And as soon as you criticize, that "You are doing this wrong, you will suffer." "Oh, yes, this Swamiji is not (indistinct)." That is going on everywhere. In the name of religion you do all nonsense rascaldom, and the leader approves, "Yes, you can do." Vivekananda did it. "Yes, there is no difference between eating meat and not eating eat in terms of religion system." He preached this, and all the sannyāsīs of the Ramakrishna Mission they eat meat, they drink, they have woman secretary, everything. This Chinmayananda is also like that. I know his whole mischief. Unless one is purely Kṛṣṇa conscious, one cannot give up all these bad habits. This is the test.

Morning Walk -- April 24, 1974, Hyderabad:

Mahāṁśa: You should never trust a politician, so if you cannot trust a politician, why we elect him as a leader, why should he be a leader?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, "Do not trust" means you are also not trustworthy, nobody trusts you, and you should also not. That is their philosophy. All these big, big politicians, just like United Nations.

Room Conversation with Irish Poet, Desmond O'Grady -- May 23, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: There are poets, there are scientists, there are religionists, philosophers, politician, so many other leaders of the society. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. To those who are expert, they are given this decision that the duty of all these men, avicyutaḥ arthaḥ, means the perfection of their occupational duty will be completely done when they are engaged, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam, when they are engaged in describing the glories of the Supreme Being.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Common man may not follow or cannot, but those who are teachers or the priest or the leaders or the executive head, they must follow. Otherwise they cannot remain pure and they cannot take the position of teacher or head. Head must be clean. Other parts may be unclean, but the head must be clean; otherwise the whole business will be spoiled. Therefore, the strictures, rules and regulation, must be followed by four persons. One person is the executive head like the president or the king. And the other person is the religious preacher, priest. And the other person is the public leader. So at least these three, four heads of the men's human society, they must be of ideal character. Otherwise the whole society will be spoiled. People will follow the heads.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Richard Webster: Well, I don't know about that, you see. I'm only...

Prabhupāda: No, there have been so many charges against president Nixon. So no, whatever it may be, we are not concerned. But this is the Vedic principle, that the king or the executive head of the state, the brāhmaṇa and the public leader must be very clean. Otherwise society will be spoiled. That is the injunction.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Anything Indian, they dislike in Pakistan. So this is going on by the politicians. They are creating situation because they are not honest, they are not clean. And a clean man cannot become politician. Mr. Lloyd George said that "consistency by the politician is the qualification of an ass." There cannot be any consistency amongst the politicians. So that is the defect, that the politicians are the heads, the leaders of the society, and they are in disagreement. Everyone has got his own ideal, and the fight is going on, and the poor man in the state, they are suffering. Just like in India they partitioned, Pakistan and Hindustan. It was arranged by the leaders, Jinnah and Jawaharlal Nehru. Especially Jinnah.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Occasionally they are fighting and losing so much money and men, that's all, a political game. Similarly, Germany is divided. Ireland is divided. This is going on. People are fighting, fighting, fighting. Leaders should be so sober and honest that the people should live peacefully, without any anxiety, without any want. That is the duty of the leaders to see. Perpetually they are in want, in scarcity, not in peace of mind, full of anxieties. In India especially, we see, the economy is so unsteady. The money value is decreasing every day. Nobody knows what will be tomorrow. Rice is selling today at two rupees kilo, tomorrow, three rupees, next day, four rupees. Where is the income is coming? Therefore there is strike, railway strike.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: There was a cartoon. When I... One leader is approached for food, that "We are in scarcity of food." The leader says, "Of course, it is very difficult to assure you for food grains. But from next week you will have television." (laughter) Next week you will have television. So these improvements are going on, television, but they are starving. This is going on. Advancement of knowledge and learning is going on in discovering television, but there is no food. This is the mismanagement of the leaders. Dishonest. There is enough food.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: The Africans will say to the Indians, "Don't come here. Go out." What is this? Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. We say, "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and utilize Kṛṣṇa's property." This is the best philosophy. But the so-called politicians and leaders, they are saying "No, you cannot enter here," immigration. America has got enough place to produce food. But they will, although they have gone to the United Nation, UNESCO, they could not find out any solution. Although there is possibility of producing ten times of the requisites of the whole population of the world, they will not allow. They will not allow.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: They are creating simply, the so-called advancement of civilization, creating problems, that's all. And that is due to these rascal leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know what is the ideal of life, what is the aim of life. They are creating hodge-podge civilization and putting the mass of people in chaotic condition. This is the sum and substance. I do not know whether you'll agreed with me, but this is my study of the whole situation.

Room Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: The people is as good as in other places. I don't find any difference. It is not that the whole Russia is atheist. It is not that. They are as others. They are like that. And our philosophy is that everyone is God conscious; simply it is being suppressed, either by the so-called leaders or by the influence of external energy, which is called māyā. We have got a verse in this Caitanya-caritāmṛta where it is said that nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti sādhya kabhu naya. It is not an artificial thing. To make one God conscious is not artificial. God consciousness is there, even in the life of aborigines, most crude people. It has to be awakened by education. Śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte.

Morning Walk -- May 27, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: After the war they will come to sense. The Communist problem... Communist is not a problem. It is good proposal, but they are missing one point. They are making Lenin the leader. If they make Kṛṣṇa the leader, then the Communistic idea will be very fruitful. They are picking up a rascal leader, but if they pick up the nice leader, God the supreme dictator, then every-thing is all right. They are catching up a dictator, but they do not know that he is rascal number one. But if he catches the Supreme Lord as dictator, as Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), then he will be happy, immediately. Keep amongst yourself and produce. Produce food grain, produce cotton, mustard seed. Self dependent, no use... And we don't require motorcar. Bullock cart is sufficient.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: What social? He is animal. How he can reform? First of all, let him become man. What reform? What is the meaning of his reform? He is animal also. That's all. You cannot expect any reformation by the same animal. That is explained. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). The so-called leader he is also animal, and he is eulogized by another animal. This is going on. And another animal, one animal, big animal is being elected as the president. Therefore you are suffering. Nixon. What is Nixon? He is also another animal. And the animals have elected him president. Just see. This is going on.

Morning Walk -- May 30, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: It will not be possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. And they are being led by such rascal leaders, who are promising sense gratification. Because they are blind, another blind man comes and says that "You will be happy in this way. Come on this way. Your sense gratification will be very much easily satisfied. come on." "Yes. Very good leader." Adānta-gobhiḥ. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pi (SB 7.5.31). They forget that they are bound up by the stringent laws of nature.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: ...a valid... That's a valid point, because it has always been found in every society that there is a need for a priestly class or a class of philosophical leaders of one kind or another. And the fact of this is recognized in the whole of the world society. I think not only in the West, but in the East, too, there's a need for the religious...

Prabhupāda: Now the so-called, the priestly society, priestly society, they are amending the Biblical injunction according to their whims. Just like in the Bible, the injunction is, "Thou shalt not kill." But the priestly class and all classes, they are simply killing. So how they can guide? They are keeping regular slaughterhouse for killing.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: I think you'd have to see the secretariat of the United Nations and the United Nations family of organizations, not so much as leaders and bosses and generals, if you like, but rather as the servants of mankind. I don't go...

Prabhupāda: We can see provided we get the chance.

C. Hennis: I don't consider myself to be a leader of mankind. I am very much a servant of mankind with a view to helping people to reduce the differences between them, with a view to helping people to understand one another better. In my own particular branch in which I'm concerned we endeavor to make people understand one another in the manner of an interpreter, if you like, to show, to allow people to speak and understand with one another, and to enable them to comprehend each other's problems and understand...

Prabhupāda: No. If there is actual brain, there is no problem. Just like if I have got good brain... I want to take this thing in my pocket. But if I have got brain, "No, this will be stealing," then I can refrain from it. But if I think that "It is lying here. I can take," what is that?

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: I think that your effort of philosophy and teaching must really be directed, in the present state of affairs where countries are organized in the form of national states, must really be directed to the national leaders of government, the people who exercise temporal and spiritual power in the various sovereign states. And the United Nations is a forum for these sovereign states. The International Labor Organization is a forum for the sovereign states on certain subjects related to labor...

Prabhupāda: No, whatever subject may be, our point is the same. You just try to understand. If... You can organize so many, but if there is lack of brain, the brain is not in order, then any amount of suborganization, organization, will never be successful. That is my point.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: This we do try to do to the extent that it is possible for the secretariat to shape and evolve a philosophy. We do try to do it. But of course we can't adopt a completely radical approach. We do what we can in the manner of a good servant and the manner of a good steward to try and help the leaders along the right path and right direction. Your Divine Grace, I thank you very much indeed for this audience. It's been very kind of you.

Prabhupāda: I may be a madman. I have talked so many things and you say all right.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it that the śūdra class of men should be trained that they are serving either God or a God conscious leader, or should they be educated to feel that their work is for God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, provided you are for God. They will see and learn. If you simply teach them, you do not do anything, then how they will learn? Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. When they actually see that "These men are dedicated to God," then they'll do whatever you wish.

Morning Walk -- June 2, 1974, Geneva:

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: It seems that the government had arrested all of the union leaders, and this paralyzed the worker's appeal. So the workers finally agreed to go back. They put many thousands of union leaders into jail.

Prabhupāda: It was right.

Morning Walk -- June 2, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Wasteful, yes. Therefore I say they have no brain. All, they are rascals. Rascal leaders. A little labor in agriculture will be sufficient to produce the family's food stock for the whole year. You can stock. You work only three months, and you get sufficient food for your whole family. And less nine months, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- June 2, 1974, Geneva:

Yogeśvara: When I was in school, I read that when the British went to Africa to colonize, the first thing they did... In the north there was a tribe called the Ashanti tribe. And the symbol of religion was an axe. Whoever possessed that axe was a leader. So the first thing they did was to import thousands and thousands of axes and they distributed them to everyone. In this way, they destroyed the religious sentiment and then introduced their own system.

Prabhupāda: Who first started this colonization? Britishers or the Spaniards?

Yogeśvara: It was a Britisher.

Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne -- June 4, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So people are so degraded, and there is no education, and there are so-called leaders. They are themselves degraded, they are themselves blind. So what is the position of the present society? It is very precarious condition. Therefore, at the end of Kali-yuga, people will be more and more, more and more degraded. There will be no more preaching. Kṛṣṇa will come as Kalki avatāra, simply killing, simply killing. That's all, finished.

Morning Walk -- June 9, 1974, Paris:

Bhagavān: So we can walk to the car through here. Will there come a time when people will become disgusted with the scientists and reject them?

Prabhupāda: No. They'll more and more forget Kṛṣṇa. This is Kali-yuga. On account of these blind leaders. Don't you see that this rascal Darwin's theory, that is very much appreciated? Any movement which tries to get out God, very much appreciated, that is very much appreciated. That is scientific. "You forget God," that is scientific. And as soon as you speak of God, "You are primitive, old type." That's all. "You are conservative."

Morning Walk -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Therefore everyone is thinking, at least in this modern world, the so-called nationalism, everyone is thinking, "I am Englishman," "I am Frenchman," "I am Indian," "I am this," "black," "white." So everyone is fool. Is it not? Yes. He's thinking in a way what he is not. Therefore he's a fool. All these big, big political leaders, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, and in Europe , they fought with this consciousness, "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am Frenchman." That's all. Even the big, big leaders, they are fools. And what to speak of common men?

Room Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Yogeśvara: Śakuni.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śakuni, yes. They're vultures, and their civilization is vulture-eater. The animal-eaters, they're like jackals, vultures, dogs. They're similar to these animals, the animal-eaters. It is not human food. Here is human food. Here is civilized food, human food. Let them learn it. Uncivilized, rudes, vultures, rākṣasas, and they're leaders. Therefore, I say all fourth-class men, they are leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. We require first-class men to lead. We are first-class men. Take our advice, and then everything will be all right. We are creating first-class men. What is the use of fourth-class men leading? All fourth-class men.

Room Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: He's ad... She's advanced. (laughter) She's more advanced. That's nice. (laughs) This is going on. Animals, simply animals in a different posture. That's all. Fourth-class, fifth-class men. And they are governing, they are leaders. Then what is that? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ.

Room Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: It's true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's a big dog, and the small dogs, they elected him. And now there is some trouble, and "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. He was praised by some animals. He's an animal, big animal, and he was praised by... That is stated here, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The so-called leaders, they are animals, and they are praised by other animals. That's all. Small animals.

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all śūdras, fourth-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth-class. Democracy means selected, I mean to..., voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore, there are so many anomalies.

Room Conversation with M. Lallier, noted French Poet -- June 12, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: He does not forget, but he... Just like the same example. You call it forgetfulness or imitation. Just like the child was offering. He was not required to offer oblation, but he was imitating the mother. That is natural. According to Vedic instruction, we are all living entities. God is also a living entity. But He is chief. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), (break) ...that He is the topmost living entity, leader of the all other living entities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. The supreme one is maintaining all other living entities.

Room Conversation with Russian Orthodox Church Representative -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Karandhara: That's why the church now has lost everyone, because even its leaders are saying, "I don't know anything. I'm just fumbling around like everyone else. I don't really know anything definite."

Prabhupāda: Still, he is leader?

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Professor La Combe: Yes, on Chowringhee.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and it was very successful. Daily, thirty thousand people were assembling.

Professor La Combe: This year?

Prabhupāda: No. (break in tape) ...God conscious. So the leaders suppressing. This is the present position. The leaders are more or less communists, and they are suppressing their natural outflow and that is the position now.

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Devotee: But more and more the people, especially in America, they are seeing how these politicians are cheating. Because every year, in every campaign, the same politician is saying, "I will do this, I will do that," and when he gets into office, he never does anything. But maybe now this time, when our Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees are running and they are showing the people what rascals... Just like Balavanta on TV, he was saying "How can these people be leader, when they are themselves permitting slaughter, drinking, smoking, having illicit sex life."

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is a fact. But why the leader? The public also drinks. They also encourage slaughterhouse. So if you say to the public that they cannot be leader, then there is no leader. They cannot find out any leader. The public will understand that "I also eat meat, I also drink, do the same thing. Why the leader should be something, saintly person? After all, he is our leader. So we are of the same character. So why the leader should be something different?" They cannot understand it.

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose I am thief and somebody accuses you that "He is a thief." So I don't take it seriously because I know, "I am also thief." Means these appeal, that does not appeal because "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." If everyone is thief, if you point out somebody that "He is thief, he cannot be trusted," then he knows that "I am also thief. It is not a big problem. I am also thief." Unless the whole public is sinless, he cannot appreciate a sinless leader. Care care mastado bhāi (?). This is natural. If I am thief, so what is the use of accusing you by other, "He is also thief." You'll take that "We all are thieves, all cousin brothers; so why this man should be only accused?"

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it not a vicious circle, though. Without a pure leader, they cannot be pure themselves.

Prabhupāda: But they cannot understand. The vicious circle, they will not be able to understand. Because he is also vicious.

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: The difficulty is, "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." Better you keep yourself ideal character that people can see that "Here is an ideal group of men." Otherwise, in politics... They are feeling the necessity of an honest leader, but they are themself dishonest, they people. So when you point out that "This leader is dishonest," they do not very much appreciate. There is a story in this connection I will tell you, that one man was drunkard. So his friend said, "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my father also drinks."

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: At this point a question rises. How is it that educated philosophers, scientists, businessmen, administrators and all the leaders of ordinary men do not surrender unto the lotus... (break) ...Manu, Vyāsa, Devala, Asita, Janaka, Prahlāda, Bali, and later on, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Śrī Caitanya and many others who are faithful philosophers, politicians, educators, and scientists etc. surrendered unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Person, the all-powerful authority. Those who are not actually philosophers, scientists, educators, administrators, etc., but who pose themselves as such for material gain, do not accept the plan or path of the Supreme Lord.

Room Conversation with Mr. Tran-van-Kha, and President & Members of the Society of Buddhists in France -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: According to Vedic system, there are four pillars of sinful life, just like this table is on the four pillars. So one pillar is illicit sex, another meat-eating, another intoxication, and another gambling. So at least the brāhmaṇas, the priestly heads of religion, the king and the public leader, they should stop these four sinful activities. The leaders of the society they must be sinless.

Room Conversation with German Women Philosophers -- June 17, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: He may not believe, but hell is there. If... You read this book. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). Read this verse. Just see how misbelief, that there is no hell. Just see. In this way, misled, whole world. The so-called rascal leaders mislead, "There is no hell. Don't believe in hell." Vivekananda said, "Yes. There is no hell."

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: Piling up simply bricks and stone, they are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." That is durāśayā. That is never to be fulfilled. And then how this society is being led? Andha. The leader is a blind man. The so-called scientists, technologists, philosophers, others, they do not know what is the aim of life. He is a blind man, and he is trying to lead other blind men. This is the position. So if a blind man tries to lead other blind men, what benefit they will get? Because they do not know what is the...

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

German devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these gentlemen are professors from the Theological Philosophical University. And this is Doctor Zara (?). He is the leader for the society of yoga and integral philosophical studies in Germany.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very fortunate to see so many big men at a time. So we were also talking to this doctor about this philosophy, how human civilization should be conducted. I was explaining to Professor that at the present moment, not at the present moment, always in this material world, we do not know what is the goal of life. We have got different philosophies, different mode of life, because we do not know what is the goal of life.

Room Conversation -- June 20, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: One of the important members (indistinct), he frankly said that we do not want that your movement will increase very fast in India. Because they know it, (indistinct), that India is naturally inclined to Kṛṣṇa. And if the selected people of the world combine together and push this movement in India, the whole program of the modern leaders (indistinct) That's a fact. And that was my (indistinct) I wanted to start this movement from India but nobody cooperated, so then I decided to come to America and my plan was successful.

Reporters Interview -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Similarly, if you... We living entities, we are spirit soul. We are not this material body. Unfortunately our system of education is so dull that the authorities do not know that we are not this body, we are spirit soul. Still, they are big, big philosopher, big, big politician and big, big leader and social authorities. But real thing is mistaken. He is accepting this body as self, or he is thinking that "The bodily comforts will make me happy." But that cannot be because the body is made of matter and we are spirit soul. The same thing: From water, you catch the fish and put on the land; it will never be happy. So long you'll continue to have this material body, there cannot be any happiness. And so many problems. The main problem is birth, death, old age and disease.

Room Conversation with Bishop Kelly -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by... That is also statement of Prahlāda Mahārāja, this boy devotee. He says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum: (SB 7.5.31) "These foolish people, they do not know, what is their actual self-interest." So he says, "They do not know the actual self-interest is approaching God. That is real self-interest. But they do not know it." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). "They have made their plan wrongly to become happy in this material world." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Bahir-artha-māninaḥ means external: "They have taken the external energy, the material world, as very important. And the leaders also, the so-called leaders... They are being led. The leaders, they are blind, and they are leading some other blind men without knowing that they cannot be happy in that way because he is under strict, stringent laws of nature, material nature."

Room Conversation with Scientists -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Dr. Harrap: But we've had very close connections with India in the dairy research laboratory in that Dr. Chulak... Yes, you know him? One of our staff members some years ago spent several months in India developing methods of making cheese from buffaloes' milk.

Prabhupāda: No, India's position is different now. India has practically no milk, and no food. Due to our leaders' mismanagement, there is no milk. India is depending on your milk powder sent by Australia or by Europe. There is no milk. But milk is very important because Kṛṣṇa said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Find out that verse.

Morning Walk -- July 9, 1974, Los Angeles:

Hṛdayānanda: Especially the leaders must preach.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: Especially the leaders must preach.

Prabhupāda: And leaders means... If the leaders are good, then it will continue.

Bali Mardana: If they are not preaching, they are not leaders. They are bogus. (pause)

Prabhupāda: Leaders means they should behave in such a way so that by following them, others will be benefitted. That is leader.

Morning Walk -- July 9, 1974, Los Angeles:

Jayatīrtha: The... A leader means one that if someone follows him, he's benefitted.

Prabhupāda: That is leader.

Guru-kṛpa: Look out.

Jayatīrtha: Look out. Oh, the ocean is coming.

Prabhupāda: Our Juhu Beach is better than... Best in the world. You have not seen?

Morning Walk at Marina del Rey -- July 14, 1974, Los Angeles:

Umāpati: For example, I have seen many godbrothers offer one another respects, but I very seldom see that in terms of some of our leaders.

Prabhupāda: So some of you show by practical example, guide them. Then others will...

Bali Mardana: One person who sees can lead thousands of blind men.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Very good. (pause) (break) ...not for rain, eh? Simply for covering the sun, eh?

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Kṛṣṇa-kānti: There's no yajña, so there's no sun.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Room Conversations -- September 10, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: These are different symptoms of the same material disease. Somebody is thinking "I shall become minister," somebody is thinking "I shall become leader," somebody is thinking "I shall become millionaire," and at last, "I shall become God." So even the so-called religionist, that heart disease is there. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi kāmī. Bhukti means ordinary karmīs want to enjoy in this material world. And mukti, they also want "I shall become God, I shall become one with God."

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- February 3, 1975, Hawaii:

Jayatīrtha: So the purpose of having the Society is to show the devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according to your instruction.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that a fool's paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC. They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise. At least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes, then he can lead all the blind men. But if all of them are blind, then it is fool's paradise. So somehow or other, we have got now a position. People likes us. So we should not spoil by personal sense gratification. That is my request. If we can maintain this institution rigidly according to the order, then many people will be benefited. By seeing our behavior, by character, they will become. Apani ācāri prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. The leader should be ideal.

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Gandhi was a politician. What does he know about dharma? He was a politician. He thought it wise that British government is very strong... Before him so many political parties tried to become violent, and they were all curbed down. This Aurobindo also was a leader of anarchist party, and when he was condemned to death, then his senses came: "This is all useless. Let me engage in performing yoga." So Gandhi thought that before him all these violent movement was cast down by the British. So he took it as a method, nonviolence, noncooperation, and to capture the public of India-India is generally inclined religiously—he became a mahātmā. But mahātmā is different.

Room Conversation with Woman Sanskrit Professor -- February 13, 1975, Mexico:

Professor: ...the ātman of the world, let's say, absolute...

Prabhupāda: Yes. The ātmā and Paramātmā, Paramātmā. As I was speaking, nityo nityānām. We are all nityas, eternal, but there is one chief nitya. Just like leader. Everywhere we go, we have got a leader. Now, this, your Mexico state, there is a president. You cannot avoid it. In your college there is principal. There must be a leader. Similarly, the whole thing taken together, there must be one leader. You have to speak from experience that in your physical department or in your religious department there is a chief, leader, professor. Or you may be. But that is the way.

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: If they follow, the whole society will be happy. A man may be very stout and strong, but if he has no good brain, it is useless. Similarly, at the present moment there is education, there is money and everything, but because there is no brain, the whole thing is in chaotic condition. The first defect is, in education, that the present leader, he does not know what is the aim of life. Neither the people know that there is reincarnation or transmigration of the soul after death. They do not know. So basically they are brainless. So they cannot give guidance, and therefore the whole society is in chaotic condition.

Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas:

Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's asking, "Everyone in India?"

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone, by nature they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, but the modern leaders, they are trying to divert their attention. The leaders are trying to make them Kṛṣṇa unconscious. (laughter) Because they are of opinion that "Being Kṛṣṇa conscious, India is so backward. So we have to become American conscious or European conscious." That is their...

Morning Walk -- February 21, 1975, Caracas:

Prabhupāda: University education is simply to learn some art, materialistic art. It is not education. Education is different. Education is brahma-vidyā, self-realization. Therefore in politics the so-called leader, because there is no standard, they change government, revolution. Why? From nature's study we can see one tree is producing a particular type of fruit and flower. There is no revolution. It is standard. But these people, because they have no standard, they change every moment, every year. Nature's way—the sun is rising from the eastern side—that is standard. (chuckles) These rascals, they will say, "Let the sun rise from the north." It is childish, simply childish.

Morning Walk -- February 21, 1975, Caracas:

Hṛdayānanda: ...policy towards the problem of overpopulation and food shortage in the world now when the world leaders are not willing to do anything? What is our policy towards these problems?

Prabhupāda: Produce food. But you are producing bolts and nuts. You eat them. Motor tire, you are producing motor tire, bolts and nuts. You eat it. (Hṛdayānanda translates into Spanish) (laughter) The energy is spoiled, creating problem. Everyone is engaged in manufacturing motor parts.

Guest: (Hṛdayānanda translates) He's saying that he himself is involved with political leaders, and he said he's found that they're completely unwilling. They don't want to hear anything about the solution, and they're completely stuck to their own way. So what can ISKCON do...

Prabhupāda: They will suffer, that's all.

Hṛdayānanda: He said is there anything we can do in the political field to try to...

Prabhupāda: If they will not take, they don't want to hear, then they must suffer.

Hṛdayānanda: He's saying all the human race is suffering due to the bad points of the leaders.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because the rascal leaders.

Room Conversation with Psychiatrist -- February 22, 1975, Caracas:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. There are different medical men and difficult diagnoses, but the urgent case is: cure the driver, and then car will go on nicely. Unfortunately, modern civilization, they do not know what is the driver. And how he will keep him sane? He does not know what is the driver? He thinks the car is automatically going on. Just like child. A child sees the car is going automatically, but that's not a fact. There is a driver. So if our vision is childish, how we can solve the problems of life? I talked with big, big professor, Kotovsky, in Moscow. He said, "There is no driver." This is a big professor, and he is teaching others. So if the leading men of the world, they think there is no driver, the body is automatically going, then what is the fate of the civilization? (break) No, there are, similarly, capitalists, communists, "this-ists," "that-ists." Full of these rascals. So how the human civilization can be without problems? The leaders are rascals. How we can expect that it will go on without problem?

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Guest (1): Because we are the most unfortunate one that with only...

Prabhupāda: You are unfortunate because you are now following misleaders. You do not follow the real leader.

Guest (1): We have only 2.4 percent of the land area and we support 16% of the human population. You see this land...

Prabhupāda: That is due to your ignorance. You have followed the so-called rascal politicians. You have not followed Kṛṣṇa. Therefore this misfortune is there. Misguided. Now...

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Guest (1): Everything comes from the mother earth. We are in very short supply of things.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No shortage. That is everything supply. You have got the Vedic knowledge. You don't take care of that. You now manufacture your own knowledge. Now there is knowledge, this Bhagavad-gītā is perfect knowledge, but even a political leader like Gandhi, he says that I don't believe that there was anybody like Kṛṣṇa living. This is your leader. All the ācāryas, previous ācāryas, big, big ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, big, big, stalwart, learned, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa. Now Gandhi says, "I don't believe." Now you are guided by Gandhi, you are not guided by the ācāryas. That is your misfortune. You are not guided by Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Guest (2): That's my point also.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so therefore... This kind of leader we are following, contradictory. That is our misfortune.

Guest (1): Swamiji we are not following any person but we do see the realities all around the world.

Prabhupāda: Realities... If you have no knowledge, what do you know about reality? If you have no knowledge, then what is reality, what is non-reality, how can you know? If your knowledge is imperfect, then how you can say reality? Suppose beyond this wall you cannot see, and how you can speak of the reality beyond this wall? That is misfortune.

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. An Indian can become perfect because there is all the Vedic literature. Janma sārthaka kari'. First of all you become perfect then preach the knowledge for other's benefit. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. Now our leaders say, "Throw away these all śāstras in the water." This is going on.

Room Conversation with Tripurari -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Sudāsa(?): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's been several places in the First Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you say how we have to get the class of men, how if the leaders take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness then...

Prabhupāda: Others will follow.

Devotee: The mass will follow. Some other times I've heard you say, like the other day, that the masses of people... When Balavanta Prabhu was running for office you were saying that it'd be very difficult to get our present-day leaders to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I'd just like to try to understand further, whether it is the masses or the leaders?

Prabhupāda: No, we are dealing generally with the masses. But if we can convert one leader, then it is equal to turning many people in the mass. That is the idea. Some way or other, we are doing Kṛṣṇa's service. Either you serve the mass or the leader, it doesn't matter. Your service is recognized.

Interview -- March 5, 1975, New York:

Reporter: My question to you is at what age did you realize God?

Prabhupāda: God is a person like you and me. The difference is that we are also persons. We are many, and God is one, leader. Now, what is the difference between this one and we many? He maintains all these many, and we are maintained by Him, but He is also a person like you and me. Do you follow?

Morning Walk -- March 11, 1975, London:

Brahmānanda: We do not really understand how demoniac, how calculating, our leaders are.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Brahmānanda: We have the impression, because we are taught from the very beginning in the schools, that the leaders are to be worshiped, that their birthdays are to be celebrated...

Prabhupāda: Where you are going?

Śrutakīrti: He's going to pick up that lawyer.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Brahmānanda: It is difficult to come to that understanding, that actually, those who are the leaders are not to be trusted.

Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government.

Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: One of the important member of the cabinet, he frankly said that "We do not want that your movement will increase very fast in India." Because they know it, Indira Gandhi and company, that India is naturally inclined to Kṛṣṇa. And if the selected people of the world, combined together, they push this movement in India, then the whole program of the modern leaders will collapse. That's a fact. And that was my idea. I wanted to start this movement from India. But nobody cooperated. So then I decided to come to America. And my plan was successful.

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Young man: Leader.

Prabhupāda: They do not judge?

Young man: That's what I thought.

Prabhupāda: No, judgment is there everywhere. Unless there is judgment, how you can discriminate, "This is spiritual; this is material"? Judgment must be there for intelligent person. Otherwise how you can distinguish? We are distinguishing every moment—"This is good.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...movement, (Bengali) bogus religious, it is scientific. You can question; I will understand. (break) They do not know what is the meaning of life. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Another blind leader, so-called leader, he is blind himself. He does not know how to lead people. And the followers, followers are also blind.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Guest: Blind leaders and blind followers?

Prabhupāda: Then they are controlled by the laws of material nature, and they want to be happy independently. This is rascaldom. If I am controlling you and you want to become happy independently, how it is possible? You must get out of the control first of all. Your eyes should be open. Then you can do something independently. But you are under my control fully, and I have wrapped up your eyes with very thick layer of cloth, and then how you can become independent, work.

Conversation with the GBC -- March 27, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious movement means... It is very practical. Because our consciousness is now polluted... Just like water. Water, originally, crystal clear water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes dirty, muddy. So our consciousness-originally clear, Kṛṣṇa consciousness: "Kṛṣṇa is my eternal master. I am eternal servant." This is real consciousness. Now, since we have come into this material world, we have made, instead of Kṛṣṇa, "My wife is my master, my society is my master, my country is my master, my political leader is my master," so many.

Interview with a German Girl and Assorted Devotees -- March 30, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Nothing. That I talked with big professors. They say. They say like that. Here also, the so-called Indian leaders, they are also thinking like that.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Brahmānanda: No solution.

Prabhupāda: No solution. Big, big leaders. Nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍhāḥ. "All these rascals, they do not know the background is 'I am.' Solution should come from Me," Kṛṣṇa says. Tribhir guṇa-māyāir bhāvair mohita. But they'll not take this solution. They'll make simply, start a plan. (break) ...less you come to this point, mām ebhyaḥ, there is no solution.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Devotee (1): In Africa, recently, one of the leaders has taken all the mūrtis and crucifixes from the churches and put his own statue.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Devotee (1): He has banned all religions.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Conversation with Devotees on Theology -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Acyutānanda: And their leader is breaking all of them.

Pañcadraviḍa: They cannot... They can't... They don't even have any disciplic succession. Their śāstra is... They can't agree among them what is the concise śāstra, nor can they agree on what is the importance of accepting śāstra in the first place. They're doing all sinful activities. So then... Then what is there to convince?

Ravīndra-svarūpa: So why not start an authoritative group of Christians who chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, who study the Bible and read the Bhagavad-gītā?

Acyutānanda: We are.

Prabhupāda: We are all Christians.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: That's said. And that is much. These rascals are chewing the chewed. One thing one has chewed, and throwing it, and again another person trying to chew it—if there is any mellow, if there is any sweetness. This is going on. Just like our Indian leaders, they are going to chewing the chewed. They are seeing the effect of material civilization in the Western countries, and they are going to imitate it, thinking that they will be happy with that.

Conversation with Indian Guests -- April 12, 1975, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: No, Rādhā... There, Bhāgavata, there is. That is foolish proposition, "In the Bhāgavata there is no Rādhārāṇī." There is. But at least in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa has never said about His Vṛndāvana-līlā. No. That is very confidential. That is not for common man. The common man, first of all let him understand what is Kṛṣṇa. That is Bhagavad-gītā. That they do not understand. Even big, big leaders, politicians, scholars, they do not understand. Because they do not take to Kṛṣṇa's instruction, therefore they fail to understand. And what they'll understand about Rādhārāṇī? You... If you are my confidential friend, then I can take to my family.

Conversation with Indian Guests -- April 12, 1975, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) You are a young man therefore I am requesting you: don't be misled by these blind leaders. Take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and you'll be happy.

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: The meaning is clear, very clear. There is no question of interpretation.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- April 19, 1975, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And now that you are saying, many people are stopping.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Somebody, they act... Just like illicit sex. They did not know that it is sinful. Now they are understanding. There was no good leader. Even the priests. In the Bible it is said, "Thou shalt not kill." The priests never said, because they are meat-eaters. They themselves are meat-eaters. How they can say? "It is our tradition to eat meat." But how the common man will be educated? (break) You can give me the general prasāda today. I will taste.

Morning Walk -- April 19, 1975, Vrndavana:

Guest (1): No. He is very much... He is more in politics than myself. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: So, on that point I have taken his ideas very nice, his thinking. He is a good thinker. And so I have taken his ideas, and I want to reply him. So any good thinker, leaders, they should do something so the India's glories... Now, these people, they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is India's glory because we haven't got to give them anything. We are hundred years back always. When they manufacture jet plane, we manufacture sewing machine. Or cycle.

Evening Discussion -- May 6, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: They were very popular. THey would travel around and do performances, and thousands of people would come. He had quite a big group of musicians, and he was the leader. He would lead the whole group. He would play the trumpet and sometimes dance.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then, Ravi Shankar is no more popular?

Paramahaṁsa: Most people think he's too puffed up.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise how they say he's God? Then? You can stop. Those who are tired can take rest. What is the local time?

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: For that he has to take direction from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says the destination Himself. He comes and says, "Here is, I am the destination, come here." But if you don't take, that is your misfortune. The direction is here. The perfect director is there, but he's unfortunate—he does not accept this. Therefore he is baffled. We are... Our propaganda is therefore, that you rascals, all blind leaders, rascals, don't try to lead. Take Kṛṣṇa's instruction and lead. Then you'll be perfect. This is our propaganda. Leading must be there, direction must be there, but the direction and leading must be perfect, then (indistinct). Or enquiries must be there but if the answers or the leading is bad, then you have to (indistinct). So we should make our enquiry to Kṛṣṇa, and take His direction.

Morning Walk -- May 8, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Australian, that's nice. Learn this art and preach. There is good potency in your country. You are also not poverty. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Rājarṣi means very rich, kings. He never said, "All the bungees understood it. All the wretched class understood it." He never taught. It is meant for the leaders of the society, opulent kings and leaders. It is meant for them. Poverty-stricken man cannot under... But there is no bar, there is no hindrance. But this is especially meant for the opulent person. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ? And He instructed first to the sun-god.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: That caste system is already there. We are also..., we have got poor class, rich class. The Communists, they have also worker class, manager class, although the Communists against class system. But I have seen, they have made this classification: worker class, manager class. Why do you make this? That is efficiency. Leader class, follower class. Otherwise there will be chaos. This is natural.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: Yes. And his wife cheater, she wanted to carry it on and her eldest son was named God, or the leader. And..., but she thought that this Guru Maharaj-ji was better, more appealing to the people. So she changed and said, "He can be the leader." Then he started the Western movement. And then he began... She noticed that he was becoming playboy instead of God. And so she began the trouble in India, and she claimed that he was no longer suitable because he was eating meat and intoxication and becoming a playboy, all these things. Dancing. So she started the trouble in India, and she wants to reinstate the elder brother as the leader and take away the younger one, Guru Maharaj-ji. So that's how the trouble started.

Prabhupāda: So that her business may go on.

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Śrutakīrti: The mother's claim is that the Guru Maharaj-ji is not fit to be the leader now because he is...

Prabhupāda: Because he has kissed one American girl?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, not one, but many.

Prabhupāda: Many.

Śrutakīrti: It's his character in general has degraded.

Amogha: That was the initiation.

Paramahaṁsa: She says he has fallen down and this is evidence.

Amogha: God has fallen down.

Prabhupāda: That means kissing one American girl is falldown. Is that the case?

Room Coversation with Psychiatrist and Indian Boy -- May 12, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: This is also yoga, bhakti-yoga, and this ordinary haṭha-yoga, that is also treatment of the mind. Treatment of mind means controlling the senses. Yoga indriya-samyamaḥ. Mind is the leader of the senses. So if the treatment of the mind is done properly, then the senses work properly. The example is the madman. Because the madman's mind is not controlled, he is acting in a way—people say, "Here is a madman."

Morning Walk -- May 13, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, yes. Policemen. Also the politicians in America, sometimes they win their elections by giving bribes.

Prabhupāda: To the voters.

Paramahaṁsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly.

Amogha: Everyone is cheating, but when they find out that the leaders are cheating, everyone becomes upset.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: That is natural. That is natural. It is good. But they are not led by good leader. Otherwise next alternative is this, that you have to give up this artificial way of civilization. Now this land is vacant. We can produce so much food grains if it is utilized. Fruits, flower, vegetables, grains—we can produce. This land is very good land for producing potato, watermelon, this. Very good land. But who is doing that? This is the suitable land for producing watermelon.

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: He says that the brain of man is bigger because man has been eating meat for so long.

Prabhupāda: Another rascal. That is the difficulty. The world is full of rascals and demons. And they are leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). "A blind man is leading other blind men."

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: The knowledge should be acquired from the beginning of life, from childhood. But if by circumstances I could not get this knowledge from childhood, then we should begin immediately. Because unless we get this knowledge, our life remains imperfect. We remain animal. The animal does not know this. And after evolutionary process, coming to the human form of body, if we keep ourself in the darkness of animal life, then our this opportunity is lost. This is the first problem. Unfortunately, the modern education is... Leaders, they have no education, and they are thinking just like animal that "I am this body." Therefore you are thinking you are Australian, I am thinking I am Indian, he is thinking American, he..., only on this bodily concept of life.

Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: But the schoolteachers, and the church leaders, and my parents, and grandparents, they all seem to think that it's all right what we're doing, so...

Prabhupāda: But because they are all rascals. Therefore we say all rascals. They may think like that, but our conclusion is anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. He may be my teacher or father or anyone. He is a rascal.

Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Good society. The group... We gave reference from Bhagavad-gītā, saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. Association is required. Otherwise why we are opening so many centers? Just to give them the facility of association. These men are big rascals. The world is full of rascals, and the so-called leaders, they are big rascals, that's all. They cannot make any solution. Simply take salary. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). They are big rascals, and the small rascals accept them as leader. That's all.

Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. The whole world is rascal. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. Take it for granted. This is the test. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). These rascals, they do not know what is his self-interest. He is simply enamored by the external energy and trying to make adjustment of things. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya... He is a rascal, and his leader is also rascal. Te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. These rascals do not know they are bound up, hands and legs, by the laws of nature, and they are making solution, problem. Just like this geographer is making solution and all of a sudden will die. And then another rascal will come into that place to make solution.

Morning Walk -- May 17, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: When Gandhi was fired to death, he could not make a solution. And they were leaders for solution. What they can do? Every one of them is under strict laws of nature. As nature will do, they will have to submit. And what they will make? They are not independent. Nobody knows where is Hitler. Such a big man, he hid or he killed himself, something done, but nobody knows. And one day he become the master of the whole universe. This is going on.

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: These leaders of the society do not encourage. Yesterday I was talking with one priest. So about illicit sex life he said that "What is the wrong there? It is a great pleasure." We are training, we are advocating that illicit sex is sinful. Our first condition is that one must give up these four things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. This is my first condition before accepting. So they agree and they follow.

Director: But not our people all do.

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Director: I know what you're saying, but a person would ask you, you're just a man like me, how, you know... it's not just as a star... that your opinion, just like...

Prabhupāda: No, if you approve this method you can cooperate in so many ways. First of all you have to see what is this method, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That we are prepared to serve you, to convince you, the first-class nature of this movement. Now if you are convinced, try to cooperate. And induce other leaders. You are also one of the leaders. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). If the leaders of the society become compassionate with this movement, others will automatically follow, "Oh, our leaders, our minister is supporting this.

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: You cannot raise anybody to high qualities unless he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is a subtle fact. And example is there. Because some of them have taken to Kṛṣṇa conscious they are ideal. All others, what is the value? He is a leader, and he says, "Yes, illicit sex is all right. We are enjoying by contraceptive method." If the leaders do something wrong, the others will follow. (to devotee:) I think you should continue as a gṛhastha for the time being.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. When you are trying to be a lawyer or barrister, that does not mean you are barrister. When you are a student of law you cannot say that "I am barrister," or "advocate," that you cannot say. You are trying to be, that is another thing. But while they are trying to be, they are taking the position of leader. That is the misleading. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). "One blind man is trying to lead many other blind men." What is the use of such leading? If the leader is blind, how he will do well to other blind men?

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Guest 2: But there would be a lot of lawyers to do...

Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing. I am talking of yourself. If one does not know what is good, then how he will do good? The first business is that he must know what is good. Then he can do something good. Otherwise what is the use of jumping like monkey? He must know. Because you are a lawyer you know how to deal with law, you can do good. But a layman who is not a lawyer, how he can do good? So therefore, anyone who is posing himself as leader to do good to the society, he must know first of all what is good.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Guest 1: No, I think that particular situation where he helped the lady across the road...

Prabhupāda: No, particular situation is different. But generally if we do not know what is the ultimate goal, then we misguide. That is the point. So either in society or politics or economics or religion, philosophy, culture—everyone is engaged in some department. But if that leader does not know what is the ultimate goal of life, how he will lead? That is given direction in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in two verses. One verse is: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse. It is in the First Canto.

Morning Walk -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne:

Hari-śauri: The leaders appear to have adopted a stopgap policy so that they can keep the people in ignorance and fool them that they are doing some good when actually they are not, so that they can maintain their position as leader. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking by material adjustment they will be happy. That is not possible. But they are so fools, they do not think over it, that "Where is the solution? You have given me the chance to live in a skyscraper building, but is that solution of the problems?" They have no brain to ask this. Is it...? Does it mean that if you live in a skyscraper building there will be no death, no disease, no old age? Then where is the solution? But real problem is going on.

Morning Walk -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne:

Amogha: They want to be well.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then "well" means they want to save themself from death. That means they want not to die. But death is there. Then where is the solution of problem? But they have no brain to think that "What these rascals will do? My problem is there. It is not solved." And still they accept. Therefore in the Bhāgavata it is said, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). They are eulogized, they are praised, glorified, by another animal. He is an animal, big animal, and a small animal says, "Oh, you are our leader." The big animal is praised by the small animal. Both of them are animals. None of them are human being. So this is going on.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Yogi Bhajan: That is what we are trying to do. We are going to get the leaders together.

Prabhupāda: That leaders... the leaders are already there. Now, suppose Guru Nanak says "Kṛṣṇa is God," so will the Sikhs follow Guru Nanak or their own whims?

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: The formula is there. So these classes of man should be on the administration, not anyone coward, nonsense, and by hook and crook they get some vote and take the political leader... How you will find peace? The fourth class is required. Just like in your body you have got brain, brain is required. Then hand. Whenever there is some attack, consciously, unconsciously, I forward my hand. So the division is already there. If you come to attack me with a knife, I don't push my head. I push my hand. So when there is attack, the brāhmaṇas are not expected to go forward; the kṣatriyas. So this is training. Everything is perfectly there. People are not accepting. You don't require conference. You simply accept the standard knowledge. Then everything is there. I am speaking to you because you are leader of the society.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Yogi Bhajan: But still there is individuality.

Prabhupāda: No individuality. Then suppose you are leader of a group. If you honestly believe, teach them. They will accept it.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Yogi Bhajan: I am also carrying the message of those limited ones who want to share the unlimited ones. And that's what the whole attempt was, to provide a platform where limited, unlimited...

Prabhupāda: No.... First of all, just like you are leader, similarly, all the leaders must accept.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, and so then they become, the people become very frustrated because the leaders they're trying to look up to, they find out they're crooks, and it ruins their... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...the animals. Take, for example, the cows. If the master is Kṛṣṇa conscious they are not killed. And if the master is a rogue, they are killed. They have no knowledge how to protect themself. They take shelter of a master. So if the master is good, then their life is safe. And if the master is rogue, then they are killed. So it requires the leader. Formerly the kings were saintly, rājarṣi. Therefore there was peace. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. They are generally in darkness. They believe that "Somebody, this man, will give us protection." But the man is treacherous. He sits down on the post of giving protection, but he kills. This is going on. Therefore if the leaders become nice, Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be all right.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Siddha-svarūpa: The so-called more advanced ones, the teachers, the leaders, the monks, they have a more difficult time because they are, have actually further studied the impersonalist philosophies, so they are more contaminated, whereas the congregation in general, they just, they don't take very seriously the philosophy. They don't get too deeply into it, I don't think. They just like to go to the temple and offer some incense to Lord Buddha and... (break) ...Govinda Restaurant, hungry... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...chanting, dancing. So this will rectify his philosophy. Chanting is so strong, it will send all philosophy to hell. (laughter) Vijāyate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. (break) You will come out triumphant of all others. (break) ...that is happening. What we are doing? We are not playing any magic. How this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is increasing?

Morning Walks -- June 18-19, 1975, Honolulu:

Siddha-svarūpa: ...indulge in sex so that it's just a cultural thing that they actually try to control that just for health and mental power, whereas in the west the leaders and the people in general... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...and because they indulge too much in sex, therefore they cannot understand. That is the proof they are fools.

Morning Walks -- June 18-19, 1975, Honolulu:

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Then whenever their back is turned the people do something else. Or they will stab them in the... (break)

Prabhupāda: They do that? (break) Leaders?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. (break) Yes. So the only way that they can attract them is to just let them free in the school. But I said that... (break)

Prabhupāda: I have seen in the Hawaii University, all hippies.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They are all criminals. We are worshiping the best nationalist, who is thinking in terms that "This place is mine," philanthropist or political leader. But actually, he is a thief because he is claiming God's property as his own. He is a criminal. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-loka-maheśvaram: "I am the proprietor of all the planets, all the universes." Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: (BG 5.29) "I am the friend of all living entities." But these people, they are claiming that... The leader is claiming, "I am the friend," and he is claiming, "I am the proprietor." They are, therefore, criminal. He is not friend. Just like your president. He is not friend of the countrymen.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dr. Gerson: So I would like to inject into this system Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very good. If the scientists, philosophers, they take up seriously then it will be good for the general mass of people. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). You are recognized leaders, so if you help them to accept, that will be great service.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That I want. Do it. We want to give degrees, at least B.A., M.A., and Ph.D., according to the advancement of knowledge. And that will be very much beneficial to your country. Then America will be saved from disaster and it will be the leader. The country will be leader of the whole world. Take this advantage.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dharmādhyakṣa: First the scientists told the political leaders that "You let us go to the moon, and we will give you all sorts of benefits." Now they have not produced any benefits, so the political leaders won't give them any more money.

Prabhupāda: That is good. They have come to their senses. All the so-called scientists, they should be dismissed, kicked out.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Indian guest: The one problem over there: it's very hard to find a pure devotee or real...

Prabhupāda: Because their leaders have gone dead. The leaders are Jawaharlal Nehru and company.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dr. Wolfe: Could it be called the true yoga of our time?

Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. It is bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga begins with chanting. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). And the more you chant and hear, you become purified. So I think you leaders of your country, you should take this movement very seriously and take it for acceptance. It is not difficult. Chanting. You can chant in school; you can chant in college; you can chant in the factory; you can chant on the street. There is no special qualification required.

Morning Walk -- June 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So here a big animal is being praised by a small animal, but both of them are animals.

Revatīnandana: So in other words the big leaders and the scientists, they are thinking that "When I am president or when I am scientist—then this time we have landed on Venus—I will be praised."

Morning Walk -- June 30, 1975, Denver:

Devotee (5): Many, many children's books here.

Devotee (4): Coloring books.

Prabhupāda: (break) Oh, this is zoo. (break) ...one dollar. (break) ...with the leaders of the Mormon?

Morning Walk -- July 1, 1975, Denver:

Harikeśa: I noticed the devotees would wait for prasādam with great...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice. It requires good leader, that's all. (break) ...Kṛṣṇa we must prepare very first-class foodstuff, and where is the complaint if it is first class?

Morning Walk -- July 2, 1975, Denver:

Brahmānanda: All great leaders, they live in constant fear.

Prabhupāda: Bhayaṁ dvitīyābhiniveśataḥ syāt. Everyone, animal up to the king of heaven—always fearful. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. So fearfulness is one of the qualification of conditioned soul. Yesterday you were putting forward the logic, "Machine." Machine, we also accept. In Bhagavad-gītā it is mentioned, this body is machine, yantra. Yantra means machine. So at the same time, you said, "Growing." Do you grow machine Ford car?

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Yuddhe cāpalāyanam. A kṣatriya should be so trained up, when there is fight, he must come out, forward. Not that he will sit down in his secluded place and poor man will fight. No. He should come forward as leader, "Come on." That is kṣatriya quality, yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Formerly there was fight, but the leaders, they would come face to face first of all. And if the leader, one of the leader is killed-yuddha means one party must be vanquished, fight—then the war is finished. The main person, chief person is now killed, so there is no more war.

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Not unnecessarily. In the history of India we find there were two fights: one with Rāvaṇa and another the Kurukṣetra fight. (break) Not at the whims of the leaders. He has got some idea and declare war and engage people. He is safe, now the people are dying. Therefore these leaders, this administration, they require to be guided by the first-class men. So everything will be possible, provided our, this heart is cleansed. And that can be done by this propagation of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Then everything will be automatically done.

Room Conversation with Lt. Mozee, Policeman -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Lt. Mozee: Well, no, I understand the spiritual leader had some ideas on how to prevent crime, how to do these things. I might inquire after he gives his ideas. I understand you read the...

Prabhupāda: It is not idea, it is fact that one man is very pious and one man is very vicious. What is the difference? The difference is: one is dirty in his heart and one is pure in his heart. So if you keep people dirty, then there will be crimes. This is the sign that the general people, they are dirty. So you have to purify the dirty things, diseased condition. Then things will be all right.

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Woman reporter: What about women who are leaders of countries such as your own country?

Prabhupāda: Well, according to Vedic conception woman is never offered leadership. But experience has shown that woman's leadership has not been successful.

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Woman reporter: What about Mrs. Meir, president of Israel?

Prabhupāda: I do not say of any particular woman, but according to Vedic civilization, we have never seen in the history that woman has become a leader.

Woman reporter: Women have been leaders.

Prabhupāda: They were not selected. The leader—formerly it was monarchy—the monarchs were selected by the advisory board of the first-class men. So they never selected any woman to become the leader of the society.

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Woman reporter: So a leader should not be elected.

Prabhupāda: Elected, but not by this general public. They have no intelligence. They sometimes elect a wrong man, and again they try to drag him down. So what is the use of such election? Because that election is not sober, not mature. If the election was mature and sober, then there was no need of dragging him down again.

Room Conversation after Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Brahmānanda: This is one point, that in our devotional line there are spiritual leaders who have been women such as Kuntī. She gave...

Prabhupāda: But still... Therefore I say. Still, she remained dependent on their son. That is is my proposition. Just like the sons, they lost the game and they were to be banished. Kuntī was not banished. So when the sons went to forest, Kuntī also followed because she thought that "I am widow. I am dependent on my sons. So wherever my sons will remain, I shall remain." She was not... She did not lose the game; neither she was ordered to go to the forest.

Room Conversation after Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Harikeśa: The two countries that have women as leaders are in the headlines all the time. Like Israel, Golda Meir, they are always war between there and Egypt.

Brahmānanda: Argentina also.

Harikeśa: Argentina, and India. Now there will be war. Wherever there is woman in charge, there is war, disruption. But they think because they are in charge, that proves they are equal.

Prabhupāda: I think in Indian history she is the first woman to be in charge of the state. Before her, there is no instance of woman becoming in charge.

Room Conversation with City Counselor -- July 10, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: That is going on everywhere, whimsically. Everything is being done whimsically. Again it is being reformed whimsically, again being the same. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed, that's all, no standard. That is the fault of the modern civilization. You make your own standard, I make my own standard, he makes his own standard. And therefore there is fight between the leaders. But according to our Vedic conception there is one standard.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Sandy Nixon: I've got a good question. How can we get a God conscious leader in this country?

Prabhupāda: You come and live with us. You'll get God. Just like so many boys...

Sandy Nixon: As a president in this country.

Prabhupāda: President?

Jayatīrtha: How to get a God conscious leader?

Sandy Nixon: God conscious president.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you train people to become God conscious, then naturally president will come, God conscious. If you train people like hogs and dogs, then the president will be hogs and dogs because it is democracy. (laughter) Therefore we have taken the task to train people how to become godly. Then naturally the president will come godly.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: So where is that school who is training to, how to control the mind, how to control the senses, how to become truthful, how to become cleansed, internally, externally. These are the signs of first-class men. So we are trying our little bit to make some men as first class. This is our teeny effort. We are not patronized by any interested person, neither by the government. By our own effort we are trying. So far big, big man, leaders, they are thinking, "This is all useless." And because they have taken these things are useless, now they are facing problems, "Crime.

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Devotee (4): What I meant to say is that the directors of these religions like the Pope and so many things, they themselves have committed so many abominable activities that people have said, "Well, why should we stay with religion? These religious leaders themselves are eating meat, they have prostitution, they are cheating the people, taking their money, living very nicely..."

Prabhupāda: But that is not religion. Why you accept the Pope as religious?

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Paramahaṁsa: Well, they're assuming because there's some irreligion amongst the so-called religious leaders, therefore they reject all religion.

Prabhupāda: No.

Paramahaṁsa: Scientists, I mean.

Prabhupāda: No, why? Because you have received some counterfeit coin, therefore you should reject all coins?

Paramahaṁsa: That's the logic.

Prabhupāda: That is not logic; that is foolishness.

Morning Walk -- July 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order is yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Don't talk nonsense. Whomever you meet, if you want to become a leader and talk something, talk Kṛṣṇa-kathā, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'..., what Kṛṣṇa has said. Then satisfy your ambition to become a talker. Otherwise, you rascal, remain a talker only. You talk only; you get nothing. If you want to utilize your talking power, then talk what Kṛṣṇa has instructed.

Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach:

Prabhupāda: So he and his wife were sitting on the corridor, and the wife was talking that "Why you are so morose always? You are earning like anything. You have got respect as political leader. Everyone likes you. You have no want. Why you are sorry? How you can become happy? What is your program?" So on the street one mendicant was going on. He said, "I want to become like that mendicant; then I will be happy."

Press Conference at Airport -- July 28, 1975, Dallas:

Prabhupāda: So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be taken very seriously. It is the finishing touch of American advancement of material comforts. Then people will be very happy, and America is already leader of the world. They will be first-class leader. The world will be benefited, and you will be benefited. And my endeavor will be also successful. Don't keep yourself in zero.

Press Conference at Airport -- July 28, 1975, Dallas:

Prabhupāda: So according to Vedic civilization, there was no such thing as democracy. It was monarchy, but the monarchy means the king was very highly spiritually advanced. The king was called rājarṣi, means king, at the same time, saintly person. We have got another example in our country-Gandhi. When he was political leader, he was practically dictator, but because he was a man of very high moral character, people took him, accepted him as the dictator. So dictatorship is good, provided the dictator is highly qualified spiritually. That is the Vedic verdict.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they're all going to hell. Nature's law is very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot avoid it. Nature is all-powerful. Kṛṣṇa has given: "You work in this way." She'll work. She'll work. She'll punish. As soon as there is little discrepancy—you have eaten, eaten more than is necessary-indigestion. "Indigestion, starve."

Car Conversation -- August 3, 1975, Detroit:

Brahmānanda: Because he was afraid. He was advised by Kissinger that "If you see him, then the Russian leaders, they will become angry upon you." So he refused to see him. So this received a great deal of criticism in America, that "We are for freedom and here he is coming, freedom fighter, and you refused to see him simply to pacify the Russian leaders." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...was a fault?

Satsvarūpa: His fault is that he spoke out against the whole Russian...

Brahmānanda: He speaks very strongly, condemns the Russian system.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Russian, it is terrorism.

Morning Walk -- August 7, 1975, Toronto:

Indian Man (2): What is the reason of that?

Prabhupāda: They have been taught by your rascal leaders, Jawaharlal Nehru and company. These rascals taught them.

Indian Man (2): Jawaharlal Nehru was representing the India for so many years.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And therefore he has ruined.

Morning Walk -- August 7, 1975, Toronto:

Indian Man (2): He met impersonalist leader, and he misguided, and they are leading their life just like a, you can say, I don't want to use bad word, like pigs. They are eating and sleeping and mating, same as there are other people doing.

Prabhupāda: Well, this is want of knowledge, jñānam.

vāsudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ
janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ
jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam
(SB 1.2.7)

If one is engaged in the devotional service of Vasudeva, then he immediately becomes vairāgī—no attachment for material things—and knowledge. But most of these rascals, they are nondevotees. The so-called mahanta, he is not mahanta-mohāndha: "great blind."

Morning Walk -- August 12, 1975, Paris:

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. You cannot save. Who wants that "My son dies, my father dies, and I'll take them and..."? But one little disease will finish your responsibi... Every nation is taken, all the leaders, and as soon as there is war, thousands and thousands will be killed. What responsibility? As soon as one atom bomb is dropped, then is many thousand will be finished. Then what is your responsibility? You cannot give. You can make a statue: "These soldiers died. These soldiers died." That's all. But you could not save them from death.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Brahmānanda: To Indira Gandhi?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I wrote one letter. When this trouble was there, so it came to my mind that, "Why there is trouble? All the leaders can follow Bhagavad-gītā and then things will be all right." So I sent that letter. Indira Gandhi letter. Here. What did I write?

Morning Walk -- August 28, 1975, Vrndavana:

Member: Only great gurus like you can enlighten the whole world. Only very rarely such people come only for the benefit of the people...

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but those who are leaders, those who are leading the people, they are not interested. They are misleading.

Morning Walk -- September 1, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Next life or this life. Suppose you are earning money in the black market. As soon as you will be arrested, you will be pun... Just like so many people are put into jail. Why they are put into jail? They have done something, big, big leaders.

Morning Walk -- September 6, 1975, Vrndavana:

Nitāi: This women's liberation movement, the leaders are also homosexual. They're lesbians.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Just see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. The whole world is on the verge of ruination. Kali-yuga.

Morning Walk -- September 9, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: They have been forced to forget Hare Kṛṣṇa by the so-called rascal leaders. Otherwise India is meant for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the whole India. (break) ...scandalous these Māyāvādīs and next the politicians, killing the spirit of India. These Māyāvādīs teaching "Why you are after God? You are God." That's all. And he says, "Yes, I am God. Why shall I worship God?" This is the... And becoming God, when they do not get any relish of becoming God, then the politician says, "It is all useless. Come to the political field.

Morning Walk -- September 27, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Kartikeya: Is it because the leaders are not following? Therefore the population is not following?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- September 27, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Kartikeya: The wrong example is given.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). The leaders are rascals, therefore they are rascals. The father is rascal; the son is rascal. Therefore Bhāgavata says that "If you are a rascal, don't become a father." Pit na sa syāt, na mocayed ya samupeta-mṛtyum. "If you are a rascal, don't become a mother." Stop population. They have therefore invented, "Yes, we shall become 'bachelor father,' 'bachelor daddy,' " not actual father but "bachelor father."

Morning Walk -- September 27, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Kartikeya: There are many. They fight with us. Over in office, when they come, they speak such ill words about many of our religious leaders and God. They are so much brainwashed, completely brainwashed. They call themselves Hindus, but they do not want to follow any God, only brahma-tattva or Brahman. They believe in the Vedas...

Madhudviṣa: Actually they are atheists.

Prabhupāda: Nāstika.

Madhudviṣa: Like Vivekananda.

Kartikeya: That man said they have muscular body and they have muscular mind. That man was very much correct, absolutely.

Prabhupāda: (break) Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- September 29, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Prabhupāda: But you cannot see them. Your philosophy is unless you see, you don't believe. That is your philosophy. But you do not consider what you can see. That is the defect of this imperfect world, that people do not think that they are imperfect. With all imperfectness, they think they are perfect. That is the defect. Therefore it is said, andha. One is blind, and he is becoming the leader of other blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Īśa-tantrya, by the laws of nature he is bound up very tight, hands and legs, and he is thinking he is free to think, free to see, free to... That is the defect.

Morning Walk -- September 29, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Indian man (6): Is it the sin of some of the...?

Prabhupāda: No, that we shall consider. First of all we have to see that I learn that my position is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So why I am put into this body which is hanyamāna? (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Yes. (Hindi) They want to remain in darkness, and any leader who will keep him in the darkness in flowery language, he will be welcomed: "Oh, he is very good leader." "And this man is very conservative: 'Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.' " So here is freedom. "Whatever you like, you do"—here is freedom. If this rascal does not do what you do and you go to hell, that is their business. Kṛṣṇa therefore says, "You rascal, where is your freedom?" Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). First of all you see. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi.

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One young boy in Johannesburg wanted to join us. He is sixteen years old. So his headmaster said, "What you will do without an education?" They think that this is the greatest ignorance. These are the leaders of education, the headmaster. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...spiritual education, he remains an animal. That's all. (break) That is Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā. To find out the ultimate goal, that is education. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), "Wherefrom everything is coming," that is education.

Press Conference -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Guest (1): Excuse me. I mean in your presence there must be some program like kīrtana or...

Prabhupāda: Anyway, this idea of society, of your culture, general mass of people, especially nowadays, it is very difficult. So if the leaders understand-yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21)—then the common mass will follow.

Press Conference -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Guest (3): But I think, Swamiji, common men follow only swamis, not the leaders or the priests.

Prabhupāda: The idea is: the common men, they expect something, especially Indians, that India has got some spiritual culture. So every human being is seeking after spiritual culture, but unfortunately, at the present moment they are doing something which is not very desirable, the so-called swamis and yogis. I do not wish to describe them.

Morning Walk -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius:

Devotee 1: They say that man has to dominate over the animals. They should...

Prabhupāda: Therefore you should kill and eat them. Very good reasoning. "The father should dominate over children; therefore the children should be killed and eaten up." So rascals, and they are professing religious leaders.

Room Conversation -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Demigods... Yes. Just like one who is trying to get some good service. So they are worshiping this boss, that boss. That is also demigod, because without flattering some boss he cannot get some good job; without flattering the voters he cannot get the ministership. That is demigod worship. They have to flatter somebody. Why this Ram Gulab has gone to...? He has to flatter there. This is going on. The big bosses in the United Nation, they are demigods, supposed to be. He thinks, "If I flatter them, then I will be able to keep my position." But he does not think that this position will be lost after some years. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. He has forgotten his eternal life, Kṛṣṇa, and he is flattering these demigods. That's all. What he will gain? He will die. That's all. At the time of death what these United Nation leaders will do?

Morning Walk -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: ...nice. Here is... This is the qualification. (break) ...island can be developed in a very nice piece of country if the leaders are intelligent.

Cyavana: They are very interested in our philosophy.

Prabhupāda: The leaders?

Room Conversation -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Guest (1): For example, I propose that Swamijī, sitting there, please tell me and I will tell the people they are the leader, to organize a Bhagavad-gītā in English, because Swamijī speaks English.

Prabhupāda: They can understand English?

Morning Walk -- October 7, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: That is their only asset. And when they are kicked out by the cannon of nature, they tolerate. That's all. They are showing their cannon, but ask them, "Can you defend yourself from the cannon of nature when he kicks out, 'Get out'?" You may be very big commander and captain or leader, but when death comes can you avoid it? Then what is your leadership? What will your cannon do? You kill nature by your cannon and live. That you cannot do. Then where is the value of your cannon? Eh? Why you are so much proud of showing your cannon? What you can do with this cannon?

Morning Walk -- October 7, 1975, Durban:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Whatever the leaders do, then the other people will follow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...India also there is such tendency towards sense gratification?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. India... Why do you speak India or America? That is the tendency everywhere.

Morning Walk -- October 7, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: We are not for material opulence. We are for ideal character. That is wanted. But they have no idea that there can be a class of men, ideal character, ideal knowledge, ideal advancement. They have no such idea. "Simply bring money and enjoy sense gratification," that's all. In that way they will never be happy, but foolish person, they have no leader to give them ideal and neither by nature they are not inclined. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). Who is giving them ideal that "Come to God, and you will be satisfied"? Nobody is giving.

Room Conversation with the Rector, Professor Olivier and Professors of the University of Durban, Westville -- October 8, 1975, Durban:

Prof. Olivier: Thank you very much. Might I appropos of that just say here that we have here a department, Science of Religion. Then we have a department of Christian Theology. We have now started a department of Islamic Studies, which will concentrate more on the theological aspects as we go along. And then, if we can find the right guru, we can start a gurukula, a department of Hindu Studies or Hinduism. And Mr. Chotari and various other members of the local community here are assisting us to find the right spiritual leader. As far as Hindu studies are concerned, we give a course here in Sanskrit at the university.

Prabhupāda: You have seen our books?

Room Conversation with Professor Olivier -- October 10, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: I talked with one big professor in Moscow. Perhaps you may know him. His name is Professor Kotovsky. He is the leader of Indology in Moscow. So I had a talk with him for about an hour. That talk was published in some paper. He says, "Swamiji, after this body is annihilated, everything is finished." So I was surprised.

Morning Walk -- Durban, October 13, 1975 :

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How were the leaders, though, of India so weak when the British first occupied that they allowed this all to take place?

Prabhupāda: There was no Indian leader. That was occupied by the Mohammedans. They were deteriorating. Yes. Besides that, Indian mass of people, they were never trained to become nationalist. They thought, “Let anyone become king. It doesn’t matter. We… Let us live peacefully, and whatever due tax we shall pay. That's all.” When the Mohammedans came the people did not think that these are foreigners.

Car ride from Durban to Johannesburg -- October 13, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: He has very much appreciated this effort. Everyone will do that. I am the single man, speaking of God. Nobody speaks. All big, big leaders, politicians, philoso..., who is speaking of God? We are stressing only, God consciousness. As soon as you speak of God, "Oh, it is old-fashioned to bring in God. These are primitive. Now we speak of science. There is no God. That is very nice." As soon as you speak of God, "Oh, you are useless. You have no advanced knowledge."

Room Conversation with Reporter of The Star -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Reporter: Your Grace, a great many of South Africa's church leaders from some of the big churches are fearful that South Africa is going to find itself in a situation, or find... What message would you give this country in terms of avoiding any...

Prabhupāda: No, I am going to every country because everywhere the same mistake is going on, bodily concept of life. So I am trying to bring them to the real life and then make their plan. They will be happy. It is not for South Africa. For any Africa, or any country, South America or South India or anywhere. The problem is the same.

Room Conversation with Reporter of The Star -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Mass of people will follow. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha (BG 3.21). Just like everywhere, in politics there is in one leader and people follow him, so we want first-class leader. Then mass will follow. If the leaders are rascals and fools, then what will be result? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If the leader is blind, how he can help other blind men? He must be open eyes. Then he can lead thousands of blind men—"Come here." And if he is himself blind, then how he can help? That is wanted. One blind man... One open-eyes man is sufficient to lead many thousands of blind men. But if the leaders are also blind, then it is useless. He must be in perfect knowledge. That is wanted. We do not expect that mass of people will understand this philosophy. It is not possible. But at least the leaders, they must know how to lead people—the father, the teachers, the government, like that. Then people will follow.

Reporter: My last question: Will you be meeting other spiritual leaders in South Africa?

Prabhupāda: I do not know who is that spiritual leader. Nobody...

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We haven't found any really prominent personalities to introduce Prabhupāda to.

Prabhupāda: But one spiritual leader is there, Swami Sahajananda.

Room Conversation with Reporter of The Star -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava should be like ocean of mercy to reclaim the fallen souls. That is Vaiṣṇava's qualification. So Vaiṣṇava should be envious? Just see. So these persons, they are not even human being, what to speak of Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava cannot be envious. Vaiṣṇava should be: "Oh, my Lord's name is being broadcast. He is getting, giving so much service to make Kṛṣṇa known." That man has appreciated, that "All these spiritual leaders, they are deriding. You are the only man... You are... It enthuses us, give us more encouragement, that you are keeping intact, love of Kṛṣṇa." This is an appreciation. Why he should be envious? He should be, rather, very much enthused that "This single man is keeping Kṛṣṇa all over the world."

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No one has ever considered such things before.

Prahupada: No..., where is the man? All animals. Man will think. One with knowledge, he will think. And what the animal will think? Anyone who is not a devotee, he is animal. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). The big animal is being worshiped by a small animal. That's all. A lion in the forest is worshiped by the small animals. So does it mean the lion is not animal? He is also animal. So similarly, all these leaders, these scientists, these philosophers, they are applauded by the small animals, but they are also animals, big animal, that's all.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brāhmaṇa, and busy intelligent means kṣatriya. So the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). The society should be divided into four classes. The śūdras, they are busy fools. Therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool.

Room Conversation -- October 29, 1975, Nairobi:

Cyavana: Oh yes, very.

Brahmānanda: And it just happened recently, one political opposition leader, he was brought to some place near Nairobi and he was... His genitals were cut off, his eyes were...

Prabhupāda: Plucked out.

Cyavana: Then he was shot.

Brahmānanda: Then he was shot.

Prabhupāda: African?

Morning Walk -- November 3, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. God must have some, something to fulfill.

Prabhupāda: Take for example our big leader, Mahātmā Gandhi. He was supposed to be very good scholar in Bhagavad-gītā. Did he ever preach that "You are not this body?"

Morning Walk -- November 4, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: They know... These Russians are the only hundred-percent body conscious. The Carvakas. Who are they? They are descendants of Carvakas, these Russians.

Prabhupāda: No, in India also, all these political leaders, big ministers...

Morning Walk -- November 4, 1975, Bombay:

Yaśomatīnandana: Mr. Dhrug was pointing out...

Prabhupāda: Where is that materialistic leader? Here is. What is your argument? Huh?

Morning Walk -- November 10, 1975, Bombay:

Indian man (4): Kṛṣṇa's (indistinct) to serve.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll chant, such politician, "Jinna-bhai! Jhinna-bhai!" They will chant like that, (laughter) rascals. But as soon as you ask them, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," "No, it can be done within the mind." (laughter) Just see their rascaldom. For some "Jhinna-bhai," for a dead leader, "Jhinna-bhai," as if he will come to life. (laughter) You see, this nonsense is going on. And as soon as you, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," "We can do it within mind."

Morning Walk -- November 12, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The bodily consciousness is also material. That is also one. And the soul consciousness, spiritual, that is also one. That is ekatvam. So for a learned person there is no defect. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini, paṇḍitaḥ samaḥ (BG 5.18). This is the... So anyone who is under the bodily conception of life, either human beings or dogs, they are the same. But that upādhi amongst human being is stronger than the cats and dogs. The human being, being advanced in consciousness, they are making this nationalism. But it is nothing but dogism. Is it not? That's all. The so-called national people are sacrificing so many lives, so many politicians, Napoleon and these big, big leaders. But what is their business? Business is that doggish mentality: "I am this body." So it is very difficult to give up this doggish mentality that "I am this body." Very, very difficult.

Morning Walk -- November 12, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: :Most powerful nation of the world having a leader of the type of Nixon.

Prabhupāda: So that is... Of course, in American constitution the president is also impeached. Is it the law?

Morning Walk -- November 16, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Future is darkness because these are scientists. He doesn't know; still, he is scientist. Then what is the future? Future is darkness, because a person who doesn't know, he has become leader. The same thing, andha yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a blind man, he becomes the leader of other blind men...

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: You may call anything, but there is no religion. Dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samanaḥ. They are animals, that's all. The modern civilized man is nothing but an animal-dressed animal, two-legged animal. The animals are four-legged, and these animals are two-legged, that's all. Or big animal. (break)...varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The leaders of this modern civilization, they are being praised by other animals. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ (SB 2.3.19). Śva means dog and...

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Śva-viḍ... Viḍ-varāha means hogs, and uṣṭra means camel, and kharaḥ means gadha, ass. So these leaders are being praised by these animals: dogs, hogs, camels, and asses. And they are thinking they are very big men. What is the value of prayers offered by dogs, hogs, asses and camels? The general people are dogs, hogs, camels. I think you have read. I have explained how they are camel, how they are dog, how they are hog, and how they are ass. I have explained this.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Just see nonsense. That I... This argument I put forward with Professor Kotovsky that, "After all, we have to follow leader. So your leader is Lenin. And my leader is Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difference between the process? You have to accept some authority. Now it is to be seen whether Lenin is perfect or Kṛṣṇa is perfect. That is another thing, but you have to follow some authority. So you are stopped."

Morning Walk -- December 17, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: And now Chinese leaders were rejoicing that American boys smoking LSD. (Hindi conversation)

Prabhupāda: Saurabha, you have brought these logs from Vṛndāvana?

Saurabha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So why they are lying idle?

Saurabha: They are not ours, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Then why it was brought here?

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: It is the church which has distorted the message. You see the Christ's message is distorted by the church; our Kṛṣṇa's message is distorted by our temples, sort of a thing.

Prabhupāda: Why temples? Even your big, big political leaders, they distort. By do you blame the temples?

Dr. Patel: But Christianity is distorted by the...

Prabhupāda: Everyone. That is going on.

Page Title:Leaders (Conversations, 1974 - 1975)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, Gopinath
Created:17 of Aug, 2010
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=224, Let=0
No. of Quotes:224