Ksatriya (Conversations 1967 - 1973)

Expressions researched:
"administrative class" |"administrator class" |"ksatriya" |"ksatriya's" |"ksatriyas"

1967 Conversations and Morning Walks

Discourse on Lord Caitanya Play Between Srila Prabhupada and Hayagriva -- April 5-6, 1967, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Now Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached that simply by the saṅkīrtana movement everything will be fulfilled. You need not do anything. So the priest class brāhmaṇas they became very much dissatisfied that "He is inviting Muhammadans and all others..." Because according to Hindu society, except the brāhmaṇas... Especially in those days, only the brāhmaṇas were considered the highest in the society, and even the kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they all calculated to, in the group of śūdras. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was allowing everyone, the Muhammadans, the śūdras, the low class, the high class, the brāhmaṇas... He was amalgamating everyone. So these brāhmaṇas, they took objection.

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Interview -- February 1, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Then vānaprastha: v-a-n-a-p-r-a-s-t-h-a, vānaprastha. Then sannyāsī: s-n-n-y-a-s-i, sannyāsī. Four divisions. These four divisions, and there are other four orders of social system. That is according to work, division according to work and quality. Just like the brāhmaṇas, b-r-a-h-m-a-i-n-s, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of the society. The kṣatriyas, k-s-h-a-t-r-y-a-s, kṣatriyas. Kṣatriyas means persons who are interested in politics, in the management of the country, political affairs. They are called kṣatriyas. Similarly, there is the vaiśyas, v-a-i-s-y-a-s. Vaiśyas means the mercantile, productive class. Those who are engaged in producing grains or trade, milk, and in industry. Of course, industry, artisans, they are called, artists, śūdras. Anyway, any person engaged in producing for the needs of the society, they are called vaiśyas. And the worker class is called śūdra.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: So everyone has got a particular type of profession. The potter, the washerman, and the florist, the grain dealer, the silver or gold dealer, the banker, and... Everything. And the priest, and the warrior. So even in India still, there is no difficulty for draftboard. There is a class, kṣatriya; they will be very glad to be recruited as soldier. They are very strong. Jat. They are called jat, Gurkha. They don't like any other occupation. Fighting they like. The Sikhs. The Sikhs they are jat class, and the Gurkha, oh, the whole British Empire was extended with the help of the Sikhs and the Gurkhas. The Britishers took these Gurkhas and the Sikhs to Burma, to Messopotamia. They liquidated the Empire because they lost India. The British soldiers were not helping to keep up their Empire. These Indians soldiers. In the first war they gained for these Indian soldiers. They fought in France and everywhere very nicely.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: This is development of later age when the so-called brāhmaṇas became, I mean to say, treacherous. They began to condemn so-called lower class. There was disruption, the whole social system. But in the beginning it was not. So they have got respectable terms. Just like a brāhmaṇa is addressed as paṇḍita mahārāja. A kṣatriya is addressed ṭhākura saheb, ṭhākur. And a merchant is addressed: sethji. And the laborer class addressed as choudhari, means leader. In this way everyone has got respectable position. Why? Because the test of their success was one, Viṣṇu. Success... Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ labhate param. Whatever your occupation may be, that doesn't matter. But if you worship the Supreme Lord by your occupation, then you are successful.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: The potter supplies pots to the temple. The priest chants mantra in the temple. The kṣatriyas, they protect the temple. He supplies the expenditure of the temple. Because the land belongs to the kṣatriya. They are royal class. Because they occupy land, so they have got the obligation to give protection to the country, fight. They shall fight. And here, at the present moment, the arrangement is that you have no land, you are landless, but you are called to fight. Why? This system is condemned system. The kṣatriyas, they are royal class, they possessed land, so they had obligation to protect the country. Therefore they were fighting. How nice arrangement. Those who are occupying administration of the country, they should fight. But they are sitting very nicely in their armchair and calling somebody, "Go and fight and be killed."

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section, varṇa. So how you can stop? It is natural. So Bhāgavata recommends, Suta Gosvāmī is addressing, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. This system of sectional division, this is... "He is brāhmaṇa, he is kṣatriya, he is vaiśya, he is śūdra, he is brahmacārī, he is householder, he is vānaprastha, he is sannyāsī." Or sub-section. "He is potter, he is washerman, he is this and that." You may divide it or not, this section will be there in every society. So Bhāgavata says that "You may be situated in any section. It doesn't matter." Either you be a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa or a potter or a washerman or whatever you may be, it doesn't matter. Everyone should be satisfied by his occupation. But how one gets successful by his occupation? He hasn't got to change the occupation.

Room Conversation about Marriage -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Prabhupāda: Nobody can lift it and with her left hand she pushed it? Oh, then my son-in-law will be he who can break this." (laughter) So he made a challenge that anyone, any prince, who will come and break this bow, he'll be my son-in-law. So it was only possible by Rāmacandra, Lord Rāmacandra. So these challenges were made amongst the kṣatriyas. Otherwise, generally, the parents would select. We were married. Whatever our parents selected, we accepted. I did not like my wife, (laughs) but gradually, I was accustomed. I was obliged to like. That's all. (laughs) That is the Indian system. You like or not like, you have to accept it. That's all. The psychology is that the girls, generally, before attaining puberty if she loves one boy, she cannot forget him. That is her psychology. And a boy also, when he is grown up, the first girl he makes choice, he also cannot forget. Therefore, by some way or other they are mixed up. So in your country the situation is different.

Room Conversation -- October 27, 1968, Montreal, With First Devotees Going to London On Evening of Their Departure:

Prabhupāda: So I'll offer one day sweet rice to Kṛṣṇa in this pot. I have asked already Govinda dasi to make little sweet rice and offer to Kṛṣṇa. Then the pot will be used. Yes. (break) ...India still, amongst the Hindu family, whenever they use some new thing, household, they'll offer first of all to the Deity. Every family has got Deity. Every Hindu family, especially the high class, brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they must have Nārāyaṇa-śilā. You know Nārāyaṇa-śilā? Śālagrāma.

Janārdana: Stone.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is worshiped in every family. Arcye śilā-dhīḥ. Śilā means stone. So arcye, the worshipable... I think this is correct.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Radio Interview -- February 12, 1969, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: But our formula is that one should live... It is called sato vṛtteḥ. The vṛtti, the profession or the means of livelihood, must be very fair. Must be very fair. Sato vṛtteḥ. Because association will contaminate my mind and my intelligence, therefore, as far as possible, sato vṛtti. And this sato vṛtti is a Sanskrit word. According to the purification of profession, livelihood, one is called a brāhmaṇa, one is called a kṣatriya, one is called a vaiśya, one is called a śūdra, one is called lower than the śūdras. You see? So that is also... But in this age one cannot stick to a particular profession. Just like for the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas... For brāhmaṇas it is enjoined that they should learn scripture and they should preach scripture. That's all. They have six kinds of occupation.

Room Conversation -- April 11, 1969, New York:

Prabhupāda: Lotus is blessing. And that disc and club is for punishing. Viṣṇu has to see two ways because He's the Lord. So, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). Just like the state. State is meant for punishing the criminals and giving protection to the law-abiding citizen. Wherefrom this idea is taken? It is taken from Viṣṇu. Everything. Because He is the supreme maintainer. So everything is required for maintaining. So this gada, the club, and the disc is for punishing the disobedient, the demons, or those who are harassing devotees. To punish them the Viṣṇu-cakra is there. Just like Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, he was harassed by Durvāsā Muni, and Viṣṇu-cakra punished him sufficiently. Mahārāja Durvāsā... Mahārāja Ambarīṣa was a great king, but a great devotee at the same time. Because he was kṣatriya and householder, Durvāsā Muni, he was envious. Durvāsā Muni was brāhmaṇa and a great yogi.

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 12, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is said in the Bhagavad-gītā: if you use sexuality for giving birth to nice child, not cats and dogs, that is spiritual. But people are using sexuality for other purposes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, śāstra-viruddho(?), according to religious ritualistic way, if one, when one uses sex life that is (indistinct). That is, therefore in the, according to Vedic system, therefore, having sex life with wife, there is a great ceremony which is called garbhādhāna ceremony, and all the higher caste, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, śūdra, er vaiśyas especially, they are to observe ten kinds of reformative process. The first process is while giving birth to a child there is a great ceremony, garbhādhāna. So it is not a secret. To beget nice child, then there will be nice population, then there will be peace and prosperity. If you beget cats and dogs, how can you expect peace and prosperity? Living in the same dog society, cat society then there will be peace?

Meeting with Devotees -- June 9, 1969, New Vrindaban:

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Knights were fighting men.

Satyabhāmā: They're warriors. Knights were like kṣatriya.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh. And noblemen?

Kīrtanānanda: They were the lords. They were...

Satyabhāmā: There were no brāhmaṇas, though. (laughs)

Śyāma: There were bishops.

Kīrtanānanda: Not exactly brāhmaṇas. They were proprietors of large tracts of land, and they were responsible for giving protection to a certain number of people under them.

Prabhupāda: Aristocrats. The same system the Britishers introduced in India also. They were called zamindari. (break) That is sannyāsī's business.

Lord Caitanya Play Told to Tamala Krsna -- August 4, 1969, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So many ladies, like that. That scene, I shall direct how to do it. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's father was not very rich man. So there was a big zamindar. He was devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. So he had some affection for Caitanya. So when the marriage ceremony was being settled up, he said, "Oh, His marriage shall not be just like the brāhmaṇas' marriage." Brāhmaṇa's wife, they are poor; so there is no expenditure. Some way or other, his marriage is done. But especially kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas, oh, they spend lakhs of rupees in marriage. So he said that "His marriage will not take place just like the brāhmaṇas. His marriage will be royal marriage." So he spent all the money, and there was grand, everything grandeur.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Oh. So we were talking of Ajamila, a brāhmaṇa resident of Kānyakubja, presently known as Kanauj. So, kānyakubje dvijaḥ kaścid asit patir..., asit kaścid dāsī-patir ajāmilaḥ, nāmnā naṣṭa-sadācāro dāsyaḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. That, what is known as, at the present, prostitute, they were know as dāsya, dāsī. (aside:) Don't make sound, "cut, cut." Silent. Dāsī... The kṣatriya kings also, when they married, with dowry many maidservants would follow the queen. That was the kṣatriya system. So Ajamila was the illegal husband of a prostitute, dāsī, dāsī-pati. Actually one should be husband of dharma-pati, religiously married, not a friend or a husband of illegal marriage. That is not allowed. Dāsī-patir ajāmilaḥ nāmnā... Ajāmila nāmnā. His name was Ajāmila.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Śāstra-vākya-pramāṇa. And it should be known through the spiritual master. Just like nowadays Bhagavad-gītā is being interpreted in so many foolish ways because they do not accept explanation from the authority. They become themselves authorities. Therefore misused. That is not explanation. Somebody is explaining that Kurukṣetra means this body, pañca-pāṇḍava means the senses. These are all nonsense. You have to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. When you cannot understand, you should get it explained by your spiritual master. Therefore one has to accept a spiritual master to understand. Tad-vijnanārtham. In order to understand that transcendental science one must approach a bona fide spiritual master. That is injunction. So here it is said that kānyakubje dvijaḥ. Dvijaḥ means he was offered the sacred thread. That means he was born in a brāhmaṇa family. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ. Everyone is born a śūdra, a foolish. Sudra means a foolish man who simply laments. That is the real meaning of śūdra. Anyone who has no intelligence, he is śūdra. We also generally say, gadāh, less intelligent. So brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they are called higher caste. According to their... Brāhmaṇa, first-class because his intelligence is first-class. Kṣatriya, his intelligence is second-class.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Now it is known as Hindu society although the "Hindu" word is given by the Mohammedans. It is called sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama society, who very strictly follow the four divisions, social divisions of varṇa—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—and four divisions of spiritual life—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So our, the Vedic system is called varṇāśrama. Varṇa means the social order. Āśrama means spiritual division. Therefore those who are following strictly the Vedic principle, that family life is called gṛhastha āśrama. Āśrama. Whenever you add this word āśrama there is spiritual significance. So all the division-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa—they are known as āśrama. Anyone can understand āśrama. As soon as there is āśrama that means "Here some men, saintly persons, spiritually advanced persons, lives."

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama-dharma... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Qualified. Therefore we want qualified brāhmaṇas, qualified kṣatriyas. At the present moment, without being qualified, they are passing on as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. That is not varṇāśrama. Without being qualified they are all śūdras, all caṇḍālas. But when they are properly trained and qualified, then it is varṇāśrama, real varṇāśrama.

Guest (4): Where are they to be trained, then? How are they...

Prabhupāda: That we are proposing. When we open a center we shall train anyone. It doesn't matter whether he is born in a śūdra family or brāhmaṇa family. Just like they are born in a different family other than brāhmaṇa but they are now brāhmaṇa because after being trained up.

Room Conversation -- December 13, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Immediately on my word they gave up. Meat-eaters, they have been described by Canakya Pandit.

Guest (1): Though we are kṣatriyas, but nobody takes meat in our house.

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas are allowed to take meat by hunting, not by slaughterhouse. Not all, but some of them.

Guest (1): When you can't get anything to eat, then only you can do that. (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...not in my sannyāsa stage. Long ago accepted sannyāsa. Sometimes in 1945.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that duty should be performed. Nobody... Just like Arjuna. Arjuna did his duty. He was a fighter. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is his excellence. Is it not? He was a fighter. His duty as a kṣatriya, his duty is to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, everyone can perform his duty. That is also enjoined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Varṇa and āśrama. There are different kinds of duties. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭha varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got his particular type of duty, but how he is becoming perfect by performing his duty, that is to be seen whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13).

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: Varṇa, varṇāśrama. And in the Bhagavad-gītā—perhaps you have read Bhagavad-gītā—there is also the statement, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ (BG 4.13). It is... This system is created originally by Viṣṇu. So as everything is creation of the Supreme, they cannot be changed. That is a prevalent everywhere, that a... Sun. Sun is creation of the Supreme. So sunshine is here in America, in Russia, in India—everywhere. Similarly, this varṇāśrama system is prevalent everywhere in some form or other. Just like the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of men, brain, brain of the society. Then the kṣatriyas, the administrator class. Then the vaiśyas, the productive class, and the śūdras, the worker class. These four classes of men are everywhere present in different names. And because it is creation by the original creator, so it is prevalent everywhere, varṇāśrama-dharma. (break)

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya.

Prof. Kotovsky: From top to... From top to collective farm, for instance, is kṣatriyas. But who would be here vaiśya and who śūdra? That is the difficulty because all others will workers, workers, anywhere, factory workers, collective farm workers and so on. So from this point of view...

Prabhupāda: From this point of view...

Prof. Kotovsky: ...there is a great distinction, in my opinion, between socialist society and all societies preceding socialist because in a modern western society you can group all social professions, classes, for instance, practically, very conditionally, you know, at least you can, the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, kṣatriyas... Excuse me... Then this vaiśya, this productive class, is owners...

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: And the śūdras are workers, menial workers. But here you have no vaiśyas from this point of view because you have administrative staff... In fact, there is administrative staff. You can call them kṣatriyas. And then śūdras, that's workers themselves. But not this intermediate class.

Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: I am not talking of your state or my state. I am taking the world as it is. The brain... Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a kṣatriya king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization. So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work. That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception. Mukha-bāhūru-padebhyaḥ. They say, mukha... Mukha means the face. Bahu means the arm. Uru means this, this, or waist. And pada.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering. As I told you that this propaganda is meant for creating some brāhmaṇas all over the world because the brāhmaṇa element is lacking, so one who seriously comes to us, he has to become a brāhmaṇa. So he has to adopt the occupation of a brāhmaṇa, and he has to give up the occupation of a kṣatriya or a śūdra. But if one wants to keep his profession, at the same time wants to understand also, that is allowed. Just like we have many professors. There is Howard Wheeler, professor of Ohio University. He's my disciple. So he is continuing his professorship. But whatever money he's getting, almost he's spending for our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For gṛhasthas, those who are householders living outside, they are expected to contribute fifty per cent of the income for the society, twenty-five per cent for the family, and twenty-five per cent for his personal emergency. After all, in this world, if we live... So far we are concerned, we are sannyāsī, but you are a professor.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth.

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I agree with you that this was addition of late brāhmaṇas who tried to...

Room Conversation -- August 15, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and śūdra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no brāhmaṇa.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's advice. Kṛṣṇa does not say sit idly. Neither Arjuna was advised like that. Neither... Arjuna wanted to be nonviolent, sit idly. Kṛṣṇa never did so. Kṛṣṇa said, "Oh, you fight. You are kṣatriya. It is your duty." And in order to raise him to that fighting position, this position, He taught him Bhagavad-gītā. So don't think that Kṛṣṇa bhaktas are idle, sitting only. No. That is mistaken idea. Kṛṣṇa bhakta can do anything under the direction of Kṛṣṇa.

Reporter: You are not escapists?

Prabhupāda: No.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four varṇas—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—it is created by Me." But you are trying to kill it. Why? If you try to kill Kṛṣṇa's program, then how you will be happy?

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Huh? There is no question of preference. Kṛṣṇa's creation, it is there. You are creating (indistinct) caste, jana-saṅgaś caste. Caste is already given, in a different name. How you can make casteless? That is not possible. The whole world—"I am American," "I am Indian"—this is caste, bigger caste. Yasyātma-buddhi-kuṇa. So long you will be under the concept of this body, there must be caste division.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: I am very glad to see original kṣatriya. (Dr. Singh laughs) Rājarṣi.

Dr. Singh: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Your generation are kṣatriya. Actually we give stress in our civilization, brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā (BG 9.33). And Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). (Hindi?) We have lost our kṣatriyas, we have lost our...

Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: So the Vedic civilization is lost. The kṣatriyas are considered to be the arms.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: And the brāhmaṇas the head.

Dr. Singh: But in the Upaniṣads, as you know, there are many cases in which the brāhmaṇas had to go to the kṣatriyas for knowledge. You remember?

Indian man: Fourth Chapter of Gītā (indistinct). Fourth Chapter of Gītā (indistinct). The knowledge is being handed over.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Handed down.

Prabhupāda: That I have spoken. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respects.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I want to revive brāhmaṇa-ism, kṣatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma. Dharma means this classification dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual. But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Dr. Singh: Guṇa-karma vibhādayo.

Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇa's dharma, the kṣatriya's dharma, the vaiśya's dharma, and the śūdra's dharma.

Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swamiji, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore, a man must be..., he must have the knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: So two sides we are trying, to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class, and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible. Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is in the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance, and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaisya, śūdra. Those who are purely in goodness, they are brāhmaṇa. Next to that, passion, kṣatriya. And next to that, vaiśya, mixture. And next to that, śūdra. And next to that, caṇḍāla.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: ...of the kṣatriya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: He's got to have the capacity for commerce and trade and (indistinct), for example.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that...

Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age?

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. Suppose if you are a kṣatriya, you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field.

Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact.

Prabhupāda: You cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class, manager class. They cannot do without it. It must be there. Someone must be their manager. So this division of the society... Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be brāhmaṇa or either you may be kṣatriya, either you may be vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ is accepted, varna āśrama. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got particular duty to perform. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You remain kṣatriya, you remain brāhmaṇa, you remain śūdra, it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted. Just like Arjuna. He remained a kṣatriya. He was a fighter, he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said, "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was..., he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, śiṣyas te 'ham (BG 2.7), "Now I am puzzled, I do not..., I am..." Yes.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Dr. Singh: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Then Kṛṣṇa taught him Bhagavad-gītā. So he remained a kṣatriya. But Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3). So business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter whether you are kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. It doesn't matter.

Dr. Singh: But surely Kṛṣṇa is not unsatisfied.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Singh: Kṛṣṇa is fully satisfied already.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." This is bhakti. This is spiritual platform. So far the material platform is concerned, there is already division. An intelligent class of men, the administrator class. Just like not all everyone is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I will not be interested. We are interested in different thing. So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of men, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore, that is required. Tejaḥ. First these administrators must be tejasī, īśvara bhava(?). (Sanskrit) Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch and the common man will fight. Formerly kṣatriya came first of all. Like Arjuna, he is in the front. The other side, Duryodhana is in the front. So the fighter in that, "Oh, my master is there." But there is no kṣatriya. The administration is under the śūdra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained. As in business, we give training. Similarly, those who are going to take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brāhmaṇas, the śāstra, sādhu-śāstra-guru. And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there, simply the training is not there. Therefore, there is chaos.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: We did not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Therefore, we created all these things. Whose duty it is? Kṛṣṇa said, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. "Even one is born in pāpa-yoni, he can come to Me." That is now the duty of those who are elevated as brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya, to keep the standard. Even one is born in pāpa-yoni, he should be educated to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. But that we did not do. We simply hated. When, during Muhammadan period, if the Muhammadan will take some water from the (indistinct) and put in this way, sprinkle over, "Oh, he has become Muhammadan." This has been done. These are stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Now whatever is done is done. Now if you want to unite the whole world again under one banner, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only...

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that "Here is an enemy," so hand immediately strikes. Brain gives direction that "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya. And the belly supplies food, vaiśya. And the legs, śūdra, carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain. Therefore, first of all duty is there must be an intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate, he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, you cannot work properly. (Sanskrit) Because we neglected Kṛṣṇa, therefore brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, they have fallen down. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, everyone. (Sanskrit)

Dr. Singh: When you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, is it not a state of ecstasy?

Prabhupāda: Why ecstasy? That is a misconception. It is a material... That spiritual ecstasy is very, very above all these things. First Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the example of Arjuna. Arjuna decided not to fight. But after understanding Bhagavad-gītā, when he became Kṛṣṇa conscious, he fought. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness: to act under the direction of Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: This is creative reinterpretation. We are accepting brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas—especially brāhmaṇas—from every community.

Dr. Singh: Are we going to have any kīrtana tonight? What is the program, or do we...

Śyāmasundara: As you wish.

Dr. Singh: As Swamiji wishes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, kīrtana.

Dr. Singh: Before dinner, before food.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: That give your finger just to keep the (indistinct).

Dr. Singh: To the kṣatriya. That is very unfair. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Not unfair. He thought that "He is a śūdra. He'll miss it."

Dr. Singh: So therefore he...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like śūdra. In the Western countries, they are all śūdras. They are getting money and misusing on wine and women. They cannot use money (indistinct), simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, especially kṣatriya, as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu-yajña.

Room Conversation -- December 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: This is settled up. But they do not know. They're simply trying to, unnecessary wasting time for bodily comforts. "Oh, you are so comfortable. Let me try." Huh? "I shall try also." So Prahlāda Maharaja says, "No, don't waste your time like that. Your time is very valuable."

So that was Vedic civilization. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, everyone is expert, but every is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no bodily barrier. No. "Because I have got a particular type of body, therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is forbidden for me." No, that is not. In any body, any circumstances, you can cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But not material. But people, they do not know. They think that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is no need, but let me improve my bodily comfort." This is called illusion. He cannot improve, even by an inch, the burden, but still... But you can improve, or you can purify, your consciousness. That is open to you, oh, irrespective of bodily (indistinct).

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation Including Discussion on SB 4.13.48 to SB 4.14.11 -- January 18, 1972, Jaipur:

Prabhupāda: Democracy is not sanctioned. But in the Kali-yuga, nobody will be a standard king. Anybody, by hook and crook, if he captures the royal throne, he becomes king. That is predicted in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Formerly, only the kṣatriyas were the kings. But at the present moment, because the institution of varṇāśrama-dharma is topsy-turvy, practically no more existing, everyone in this age is calculated to the śūdras. So therefore, there is struggle, who will capture the power? We see practically in political field, the people are interested for capturing the power, but they are not interested... Formality. So they put their manifesto before the election, that we shall serve you in this way and that way. But because they are simply busy to keep their position in the political power...

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles.

Room Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo:

Prabhupāda: Buddha?

Dai Nippon representative: He ate pork, and then he became sick and died.

Prabhupāda: But in our India... Of course, Lord Buddha was kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas were allowed to eat meat by hunting.

Dai Nippon representative: Hunting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because king—the kṣatriya means royal order-they, sometimes they had to kill somebody. If somebody is criminal, "Cut off his head." So in order to become powerful in cutting head, so they had to practice hunting. Yes. This hunting was allowed to the kṣatriyas. There are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. Four divisions means intelligent class, administrative class, mercantile class, and laborer class. So these kṣatriyas, they are royal order, giving protection to the citizens. And the brāhmaṇas giving good advice to the royal order. And the mercantile class, they work under the regulation of the royal order. And the worker class, they give simply service.

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: "This regulative principle is applicable to all varṇas and āśramas, the castes and occupations of life. There are four varṇas, namely the brāhmaṇas (priests and intellectuals), the kṣatriyas (warriors and statesmen), the vaiśyas (businessmen and farmers) and the śūdras (laborers and servants). There are also four standard āśramas, namely brahmacarya (student life), gṛhastha (householder), vānaprastha (retired) and sannyāsa (renounced). The regulative principles are not only for the brahmacārīs (the celibate students) to follow, but are applicable for all. It doesn't matter whether one is a beginner—a brahmacārī—or if one is very advanced—a sannyāsī. The principle of remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly and not forgetting Him at any moment is meant to be followed by everyone, without fail.

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: The injunctions of rules and regulations and the resultant reactions are mentioned in the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Fifth Chapter, first and second verses. Camasa Muni, one of the nine sages who came to instruct King Nimi, addressed the King and said, 'The four social orders, namely the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras, have come out of the different parts of the universal form of the Supreme Lord as follows: the brāhmaṇas have come out from the head, the kṣatriyas have come out from the arms, the vaiśyas have come out from the waist, and the śūdras have come out from the legs. Similarly, the sannyāsīs have come out from the head, the vānaprasthas from the arms, the gṛhasthas from the waist and the brahmacārīs from the legs.'

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: There are so many married families. So many married families. He is married family, he is married family, he is married family. They have got children, wife, everything. There is no problem. The children are getting nice education, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, dancing, eating nicely. Just now we are purchasing one house in front of our temple, seventy thousand dollars for providing gṛhasthas. Husband, wife, children will live there. So we have no problem. The gṛhasthas are there, the brahmacārīs are there, sannyāsīs are there—everyone is there. We maintain the Vedic culture, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, or brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. The eight orders of social structure we maintain. But they're all engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is the distinction. Everyone is twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Guest (2): What are the kṣatriyas of this order supposed to doing now?

Prabhupāda: They are taking to politics. Yes.

Guest (2): Whom are they fighting? Whom are they going to fight?

Prabhupāda: No, some of our members, they are standing for election in the government. Election. And we hope one day some of our men will become President. That is kṣatriya's business, to take part in administration.

Guest (2): No fighter? No fighting? They are not going to fight? They're not going to become warriors, not like the real kṣatriyas.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: Well, if required, muṣṭi fight will be there. Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. He was Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Guest (2): Yes. But what I'm basically asking is what are these kṣatriyas going to fight with?

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya fought... Why don't you take the case of Arjuna? He was a kṣatriya. He fought for Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): Yes, but in those days, you see, there is some kind of a clear cut...

Prabhupāda: Those days or in these days, the same principles are there. Kṣatriyas should fight for Kṛṣṇa. That is his perfection of life.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: You should fight... No, brāhmaṇas will not fight. the kṣatriyas will fight. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they are part and parcel of the same unit. Just like hand. Hand is the part of your body. When there is attack, you first of all spread your hand. So this is kṣatriya's business. When somebody is coming to attack you, you don't put your legs, you put your hands. And the hand is raised by the order of the brain. And the hand and the brain is maintained by the belly. Why don't you study your own body? As in your own body there is brahminical department, there is kṣatriya department, vaiśya department and śūdra department... (laughter) But nobody is less important.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: Śūdra is serving others. Get some salary and be satisfied. That's all. He has no more culture. That is śūdra. He cannot live independently. Anyone who serves others for his livelihood, he's a śūdra. A brāhmaṇa never serves anyone, a kṣatriya never serves anyone, a vaiśya never serves anyone. A śūdra... Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). They want some service: "Give me some money, sir. I am helpless." "All right, you work like this." That is śūdra.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: They can be counted, yes. Because a brāhmaṇa is advised not to accept service at any circumstances. That is the injunction of the śāstra. He can take the profession of a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, but not the śūdra. That is brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): So whoever cannot stand on his own legs as an independent businessman or landlord or whatever it be, he's a śūdra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. I have not manufactured these things. These are śāstra, that "He's brāhmaṇa,"—the qualification. "He's kṣatriya,"—qualification. "He's vaiśya,"—qualification. "He's śūdra—by qualification." And Nārada Muni says, but we have to judge by the qualification. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet: (SB 7.11.35) "

Room Conversation -- August 1, 1972, London:

Prabhupāda: No. These Europeans, Americans, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll be more happy. That is assured. From all angles of vision-their family life, their political life, their social life, their cultural life, their religious life, their philosophical life, their scientific life—everything will be perfect. Now you have to teach them. I can give you the ideas how they'll be happy. The rascals, they do not know why, what is your specialness, and just to teach you this. My only ambition is that you are... (aside:) Oh, there is no water. You are supposed to be the most intelligent persons. (Prabhupāda drinks) So if you take, others will take. That is going on. So I have no distinction between East and West. They're thinking that East is conquering West by culture. That is their enviousness. (laughter) That is, they are afraid. Because the Britishers, they kept Indian culture suppressed so long because... (break) ...the kṣatriya, kings, in special cases. Not for public. Among the kṣatriyas. And among the vaiśyas, one day in a year, when they were allocated(?), to try one's luck. One day they'll bet. Not amongst the brāhmaṇas or the śūdras. Śūdras have no money to gamble, and brāhmaṇas prohibited. The kṣatriyas, they were also allowed in special cases, and the vaiśyas were allowed to engage in gambling one day in a year. That means restricted.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: This Vivasvān is the original person of the kṣatriya family, Sūrya-vaṁśa.

Scholar: Sūrya-vaṁśa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Eh?

Devotee: Does he mention Vivasvān here? Should I read it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Scholar: The sun is the king of the planets and the sun god (at present of the name Vivasvān) rules...

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: The predominating deity in the sun planet, his name is Vivasvān.

Scholar: Vivasvān, yes. And he's supposed to be the originator of...

Prabhupāda: He's the original person for the... There are two kinds of kṣatriyas. One coming from the sun-god, and the other is coming from the moon god, candra-vaṁśa, sūrya-vaṁśa.

Scholar: That's a very good correction for us. (Indonesian)

Prabhupāda: Personification means he... From the explanation it appears that actually there is no person.

Scholar: Yes. Originally there was person.

Prabhupāda: Not was, is, is still.

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: No, actually... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Mohammedans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas, four āśrama. The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being. He's animal, because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama. The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four divisions—the head division, the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division—all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not... that we don't require leg. Leg is also required. Similarly, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they're required to function the society perfectly.

Morning Walk -- April 30, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Cousin sister. Without husband, woman is very, very unhappy. Therefore according to Vedic system the father has got a very responsible duty to get the daughter married. It is a responsibility of the father. In the absence of father, elder brother. Now the scientists have given them contraceptives. Don't marry and use contraceptive. This is scientific advancement. And the contraceptive user of girls, they're never beautiful. Natural beauty... Natural beauty's lost. Did you mark it? Between a woman having natural children, her beauty's better than the girl using contraceptives. It is natural. As soon as you check natural system, you become in difficulty. The... Still the system is current. Kṣatriyas, kings, when they are married... You have seen, Kṛṣṇa's father's marriage... So many women also were given.

Room Conversation with David Wynne, Sculptor -- July 9, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That king should be a representative of God. That is ideal king. But if he thinks that "This kingdom is my property, and let me enjoy for my sense enjoyment," then it is all gone. If he thinks himself as representative of God... Just like we think. Therefore we are after our disciples: "Do this, do that, do that, do that." We want to see that my disciples also become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Similarly, it is the king's duty to see that every citizen becomes God conscious. Then he is representative of God. That is the first duty. The division must be there, and the, it is the duty of the king to see that everyone is discharging according to his responsibility. That is king's duty. A brāhmaṇa is acting exactly like brāhmaṇa. The kṣatriya is acting exactly like kṣatriya. A vaiśya is... Like that. It is the duty of a king to see that nobody's unemployed, everyone is engaged in his own occupational duty.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: It is dangerous. He's already... A brāhmaṇa is doing śūdra's business. Therefore this stress has been given. You have become brāhmaṇa- like, you do like, act like brāhmaṇa. Janma-karma, uh, guṇa-karma. So you have got good qualification of the brāhmaṇas. Now act like brāhmaṇa. Then your life is succ... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You act as a brāhmaṇa and satisfy the Lord, Supreme. Varṇāśramācaravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you strictly act as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, it doesn't matter. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). If, by your action, as it is described in the śāstra, the Supreme Lord is satisfied, then your life is successful. But they are not doing even sva-dharma, bodily.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Therefore the ultimate solution is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Even sva-dharma. "Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Sarva-dharmān means sva-dharma, including, that "You have to give up your sva-dharma. Don't... You cannot act as a brāhmaṇa, you cannot act as a kṣatriya, neither you are brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya. All right, whatever dharma you have got, give it up. Just surrender unto Me. I'll give you protection." Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām... This is the protection.

Guest (5): (Hindi)

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sva-karmaṇā, by his own business... Just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was kṣatriya. So sva-karmaṇā, by his fighting business, he served Kṛṣṇa. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. The Sūta Gosvāmī said—all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya—so he said, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ (SB 1.2.13). You are all very first-class brāhmaṇas. So this is the verdict. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. According to the division of varṇa and āśrama. Four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So Sūta Gosvāmī said, varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. You may be a brāhmaṇa. You may be a kṣatriya. You may be a vaiśya. You may be a śūdra. You may be a brahmacārī. You may be a gṛhastha. You may be a vānaprastha or sannyāsa. It doesn't matter. These divisions will go on. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ must be there, division. Vibhāgaśaḥ svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Simply you have to see whether by executing your particular type of business you are pleasing the Supreme Lord. That's all. If by your activities, by your business, the Supreme Lord is pleased, then it is successful, good. Just like Arjuna. The same example. He was a kṣatriya. He knew how to fight. But by his fighting, he pleased Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: He followed the moral principles of this material world. He thought... He expressed that "Duryodhana...," he knew that "Either be on Arjuna's side or not, Arjuna will be victorious. Because Kṛṣṇa is there. So let us fight with..." Because kṣatriya, this fighting is sporting. You see. That is not any difficult task for them. So he showed these moral principles, that "These people are maintaining me, Duryodhana... They are maintaining me. I am old man, and they are taking care of me, and they are expect... So when they are in danger, I shall go to his enemy's side? Oh, this is not good." That he saw. And he knew that, "Even if I do not go to this side, he'll be victorious." So he showed these moral principles. "So one is maintaining me and he is in now danger, I go to his enemy's side, that does not look well."

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: And that was written for strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām (SB 1.4.25). Mahābhārata was written by... This is history, but it was written by Vyāsadeva for woman, strī, śūdra and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means those who are born in high family, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, but they are not cultured as their forefathers. They are called dvija-bandhu. And they are compared with śūdras. So strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām. For these women, śūdra and dvija-bandhu, Mahābhārata is Vedic literature. But for their understanding... They could not understand the Vedic language directly. Therefore Mahābhārata was written. And in Mahābhārata he gave the topics, Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna, Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā is the essence of all Vedic literatures.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura, they belong to kṣatriya class. Brāhmaṇa... According to Vedic conception, there are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra. So next to brāhmaṇa is the kṣatriya. So this Ṭhākura title is given to the kṣatriyas, administrator class. Yes. (pause, Prabhupāda chants japa softly) So in your library you are keeping our books? No. All books?

Guest (2) (young British man): Well, not all of them. We don't have room to keep all.

Prabhupāda: Hm. (pause) So you have known something about our movement?

Guest (2): Yes.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So human being, unless he comes to this platform of intelligence, he is animal. The animal cannot do any remedy. You take one animal to the slaughterhouse. He cannot do anything. So sleeping means to remain in ignorance. And awakened stage means in knowledge. So intelligence means one must have knowledge. That is intelligence. So this division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—means the highest intelligent class man is called brāhmaṇa. He knows. He's in knowledge. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). Next intelligent, less, is the kṣatriyas. Next, the vaiśyas. And the śūdras, they are like, almost like animals. They have no independence. Just like animal has no independence. A dog, without a master, he cannot live. His life is very precarious. So at the present moment, however one qualified may be, unless he gets a good job, he's just like a dog, a street dog. He may be very highly qualified, technologically, but if he does not get a job, then he's useless. He'll go.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: "Sir, can you give me any job?" "No vacancies." A dog like. Just like dog goes, moves the tail, "Can you give me some food." Somebody gives him, "Eh! Hut!" This is the position. Therefore in this age kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In Kali-yuga, there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya. There are some vaiśyas. And all śūdras. Because they cannot live without being engaged by somebody else. And the whole civilization is going on, big, big factories, big, big... What is that? Śūdras. They are creating śūdras. "People should be dependent." Unless you work... Therefore people are going fifty miles away, going... I have seen in New York. People are coming from the other side... What is that?

Haṁsadūta: Connecticut

Prabhupāda: No, no. Staten Island?

Room Conversation with Indian Guests and Devotees -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi for some time, a few English words) (break) (Hindi for some time) (break) When the destiny of the people are to be controlled, there must be very, very intelligent man. That is Vedic civilization. There is standard aims and objects on which the people should be trained up. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. Viṣṇur ārādhanam. Worshiping Viṣṇu. This is the ultimate aim. So the whole society is divided into brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa—departmental—and they are trained up. But the aim is viṣṇur ārādhanam. But they have no idea at the present moment. Viṣṇur ārādhanam, he has no knowledge. But the civilization begins on this point. Human being means he's meant for viṣṇur ārādhanam. Otherwise what is the difference between dogs and human beings? The western people, they do not know.

Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad-gītā recommends that the whole society should be divided into four divisions: the brāhmaṇa, or the most intellectual persons, the kṣatriyas, the administrators, the vaiśyas, the mercantile agriculturists, and the śūdras, ordinary men, laborer or worker. Because this material world is conducted by three modes of nature, goodness, passion and ignorance, so according to the quality of the person, he should be listed in different categories. And it is the duty of the state to see that all these categories, divisions, they are working nicely.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This catur-varṇa. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa, whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa. Nowadays that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as śūdra, but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So it is the king's duty. Just like the king, it is the government's duty to see that nobody cheats. If a person without any medical qualification, if he writes "Doctor, Medical practitioner," he should be punished. Similarly, if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa, he must act as brāhmaṇa. If one is claiming to be kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Now, what are the qualifications of brāhmaṇa, what are the qualifications of kṣatriya, they are there already in Bhagavad-gītā.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So this is government's duty, that you are claiming that everyone should be employed, everyone should be engaged, in his own occupation. That is called svadharmeṇa idanasya(?). Sva-dharma means the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. By quality. Guṇa-karma. By quality and work. So it is the duty of the government to see that a śūdra is employed, is engaged as a śūdra, a vaiśya is employed and engaged as... Just like vaiśya. Vaiśya, it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Now the vaiśyas, they are in the share market speculating.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Everything is, one after another, is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. So those who are responsible for giving up kula-dharma and jāti-dharma, and creating varṇa-saṅkara... Varṇa-saṅkara, just like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are supposed to undergo the purificatory process daśa-vidhā-saṁskāra. So the first saṁskāra is garbhādhāna. So in this Bhāgavata it is said by Nārada that as soon as garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, immediately the whole family becomes śūdra. So who is observing the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra? Nobody.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Correct? In this age of Kali, everyone is to be accepted as śūdra. No brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśya. All śūdra, or less than śūdra.

Reporter: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Pañcavān.(?) This is the position. So at the present moment, to reform that, you cannot take them to the original position. It is not possible, it is Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They are very slow, they don't accept the right path... Just like God is here, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). But they're creating their own God. Even big, big leaders they are saying, "Eh, Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa should be accepted?" Even big, big leaders, they do not believe that Kṛṣṇa was there on this planet, there was Kurukṣetra battle. You know better than me.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So this dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, they're divided according to karma. You cannot avoid this karma. Dharma means karma, activity. Brāhmaṇa, he's practicing, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). These are karmas. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. Kṣatriya-karma svabhāva-jam. So dharma means this is sva-dharma. Brāhmaṇa's executing the karma of brāhmaṇa, he's dharma.

Reporter: Yes, but then karmaṇy evādhikāras te...

Prabhupāda: Karmaṇi means that you are as you are...

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizens, to become charitably disposed. Everything is described there. These are the kṣatriya's karma. These the brāhmaṇa's karma. These are the, eh, vaiśya's karma. These are the śūdra's karma. So sva-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. Dharma karma. Dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brāhmaṇa, you have to act as a brāhmaṇa.

Reporter: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: You are kṣatriya, you have to act as a kṣatriya. So acting means karma. How you can avoid karma? Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti is also karma. Bhakti, what is this bhakti? Just like we are engaged in devotional service. That service means karma. So they're also rising early in the morning at four 'o clock offering maṅgala-ārati, and then reading books, then chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then taking the class and taking prasādam, then going to outside for performing saṅkīrtana, to distributing books.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Jñānam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is, jñānam means theoretical knowledge. And vijñānam means practical knowledge. Jñānaṁ vijñānam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra. This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajña. Yajñād bhavati (indistinct). This things are there. So everyone should act for yajña. Yajñeśa. In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa it is said, varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you act according to varṇāśrama, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, never mind, whatever you are. Everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: It is clear. If you are actually surrendered soul, then to you it is clear, it is very clear. Kṛṣṇa gives direction, that this is the business of the brāhmaṇa, this is the business of kṣatriya. So politics is the business of the kṣatriya. So if you act according to Kṛṣṇa's direction in politics, then you are surrendered soul. It is not that because we have got this mālā and tilaka we are surrendered soul, and a kṣatriya cannot be surrendered soul, or a vaiśya cannot be surrendered soul. You have to act according to the direction. Kṛṣṇa is giving direction: "This is brāhmaṇa's karma." You do it. That means you are surrendered soul, at the same time you are acting as a brāhmaṇa. But if you act whimsically, then what is your surrender? And why did you become a brāhmaṇa? Then there is chaos.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No, why Nehru? Everyone.

Reporter: Everyone.

Prabhupāda: Everyone. Unless he follows the principles of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, how he becomes one? Therefore we have concluded everyone is a śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ.

Reporter: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: But there is no disappointment.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Self-supporting. We are self-supporting. Just like... I have given the example. The body, the social body... You can take of this body. There are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. So belly is doing the work of the belly, stomach. The leg is walking. The hand is doing, defending, and the head and the brain is giving instruction to everyone. This is cooperation. So that is Vedic system of civilization. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. There must be divisions of work. Not that everyone has to learn everything.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No, I am talking generally, not of him, that everything must be, there must be division. Just like naturally we have got division. The whole object is to keep the body fit, but there is division: the head division, the arm division, the stomach division, and the leg division. So similarly, there must be four classes of men in the society: the intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men, and the laborer class of men. Everything is required. But not that the intelligent class of man has to learn the business of the laborer class of men. That is not required. Just try to understand. The laborer class of men, they are required. But one who is intelligent class, he, he cannot be trained up as laborer, ordinary laborer in the factory. That is mistake. He must work according to his capacity. If he's intelligent, he must be preacher, he must be God conscious. He would educate people that "This eating, sleeping is not all.

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Arjuna. He was a kṣatriya, a warrior, but he acted on account of Kṛṣṇa. We are acting, but we are acting at the present moment for our sense gratification. Everyone is thinking that "If I do like this, it will give me great satisfaction." That is my sense gratification. I am acting for my satisfaction, not for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. So when we act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is the perfection. Then we save the material pollution. This is the secret. Arjuna is a good example. Before fighting, he was thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. But when he understood Bhagavad-gītā and he agreed to act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then he became perfect.

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathe... (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, how to become a brāhmaṇa, how to become a kṣatriya, how to become a vaiśya, how to become a śūdra, or how to remain less important than the śūdras. The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly... (end)

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Everyone is acting. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ. According to Vedic civilization, there are four divisions of men. brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and further, spiritual divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So everyone has got some duty according to his position. So Bhāgavata says that even a person executes his duty very perfectly, but if he does not awaken his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all that he has done is simply a waste of time. So our point is that the UNESCO, United Nations, UNO, they're simply wasting their time. From practical point of view, they're unable to do anything. Because the original idea was to stop war. But the war is going on, fighting is going on. They could not stop it. And United Nations... But actually they are becoming disunited more and more. Pakistan was not there. You know very well. Lahore was your country. Now it is other's country.

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: This country was conquered by Bhīmasena and Sahadeva. The Greeks are known as Pulindas, and it is mentioned in the Vana-parva of the Mahābhārata that the non-Vedic race of this part of the world would rule over the world. This Pulinda province was also one of the provinces of Bhārata, and the inhabitants were classified amongst the kṣatriya kings. But later on, due to their giving up the brahminical culture, they were mentioned as mlecchas, just as those who are not followers of the Islamic culture are called kafirs, and those who are not followers of the Christian culture are called heathens. Ābhīra. This name also appears in Mahābhārata, both in the Sabhā-parva and the Bhīṣma-parva. It is mentioned that this province was situated on the River Sarasvatī in Sind. The modern Sind province formerly extended on the other side of the Arabian Sea.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning. That it is the kṣatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brāhmaṇa, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Not to, because everything is allowed. These eight, four varṇas and four āśramas. There is no such thing that one has to become, to come to this form of life or that form of life. So varṇāśramācaravatā. You must execute the varṇāśrama-dharma. Then you'll understand. It doesn't matter whether you are a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra, that is a cooperation. Just like in your body there must be the head, there must be the arms, there must be the belly, and there must be the legs. By comparative study head is more important than the leg. But leg is also required. You cannot do without leg. Similarly, brāhmaṇa is the head, kṣatriya is the arms, vaiśya is the belly and śūdra is the leg. So as much I require my head so much I require the leg also. But the leg must do the leg's duty and the head must do the head's duty. Then it is perfect. And if the head is cracked, then everything is gone, madman. So at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified. Therefore the society is in chaos.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: The real purpose is understanding Viṣṇu the Supreme. So varṇāśrama-dharma is also meant for understanding Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. So... But these formulas of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is the, the age is so rotten that it is very difficult to revive this varṇāśrama-dharma culture. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. Yes, it is all right, but it is external now. It cannot be utilized at the present moment. So when Rāmānanda Rāya stated, citing one verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām. If one simply hears about Viṣṇu, never mind in whatever condition he is, then he can understand what is God. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatām. Śruti-gatām means hearing.

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: These are the processes to become perfect. Tapasā. First thing is tapasya. And nobody's prepared to undergo tapasya. And human life is made for tapasya. Therefore in Vedic civilization, you'll find tapasya. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they were all engaged in tapasya. Rājarṣi, devarṣi. Bharata Mahārāja, under whose name this planet is called Bhāratavarṣa, at the age of twenty-four years, he gave up his young wife, children, and went for tapasya. Tapasya is the life of the human being. Not to live like cats and dogs. That is not human life. Restrained. Tapasya. But here there is no, at the present moment, there is no question of tapasya. Even one is ninety years old, he's still engaged in these material activities. Even a person like Gandhi, unless he was killed, he would not give up politics.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And leg must work for carrying the body. So similarly the society must be divided: the brain of the society, the arms of the society, the belly of the society and the legs of the society. That will make perfection. The brain will give direction That is the brāhmaṇas. The arms will give protection. That is the kṣatriya. And the belly will give energy, food, that is vaiśya. And the legs will carry the body. That is śūdra. This is... Whole society should be divided into four divisions, the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras. And they should work cooperatively for the total benefit of the body. This is perfect life. Not that everyone should be brain. Then who will carry me? Just like in your bank, the manager is the brain. The secretaries and assistants are the hands, clerks. And ordinary worker, they are legs. Anywhere you go, you must find out these four divisions. Therefore the human society must be divided into four divisions.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform, there must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is not possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required. The society must be divided into four classes. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.

Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is by tendency. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). By the tendency. Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that "This boy is meant for becoming a brāhmaṇa." Everyone has got some tendency. From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like he is manager. He has got the qualification of manager and he is working as manager. Then he is a manager. Even if he has got the quality, if he does not work, he is not a manager. Suppose he has got the qualities, but he does not work, he sits at home, nobody will call him bank manager. He must have the qualities and he must work. Then he is. So here is guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. A brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra must have the requisite quality. And at the same time he must work as such. Then he is brāhmaṇa. This is the (indistinct). But now in India they have taken: no quality, no work, still, he is brāhmaṇa. He is pulling on ṭhelā, no brāhmaṇa quality, neither work is brāhmaṇa, but still, he is paṇḍitjī. I have seen it in Calcutta.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: These things should be... I am accepting somebody as brāhmaṇa; then I must see that he has the quality of brāhmaṇa, that is there, satya, śama, dama, titikṣā, and he is working as a brāhmaṇa. When this was not examined, checked, anyone born in a brāhmaṇa family became a brāhmaṇa, the whole thing topsy-turvied. Just like my student here. He belongs to the kṣatriya family. But he is not in the fighting, military plan. So he is not kṣatriya. But he is now more than kṣatriya. He is worshiping God. Therefore he is brāhmaṇa. He is neither kṣatriya nor śūdra. He is brāhmaṇa. His hereditary title is kṣatriya, Kṣanna. Kṣat na, kṣat na. He cannot tolerate injury to others. That is kṣanna. Is it not?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think so.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Kṣat means injury, and triya means one who delivers. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja, immediately took his sword, "Oh, why you are injuring one cow in my kingdom?" The kṣatriya's business is to give protection to the citizens from being injured by others. That is called kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa means whose knowledge is so perfect that he knows what is God. That is brāhmaṇa. And śūdra means one who laments. Śocati ti śūdra. (?) Śocati.

Śrutakīrti: Na śocati na kāṅkṣati.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Śocati means in everything he laments. "Hai hai, I have lost so much things, I have not these things, I have not that thing." So at the present moment, all the people, they are so dissatisfied that they are all śūdras. Śūdra is always in want. So who is not, at the present moment, not in want? Everybody's in want. Therefore everybody is a śūdra now. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. And that is his qualification, always feeling in want, śocati. And his work is to serve others, master. A brāhmaṇa will not work under anybody. A kṣatriya will not work under anybody. Nowadays the industrial development has taken place because people are śūdras. They want some service. So-called technologists and laborers, and everything. Everyone is searching after good job. He cannot live independently, just like a dog. A dog cannot live independently.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Suppose in your bank, if you withdraw from the service, the bank will stop. Industry will stop. So because there is no such division as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Everyone is śūdra. Therefore this economic development, so-called economic development, has become possible. But in spite of all this economic development, because people are śūdras, they cannot be happy. Because śocati, they will lament, strike. Even they are getting thousands of rupees, strike. Even they get five hundred thousands of rupees, still there will be strike. Because they are śūdras.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the doctors are going on strike now.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are śūdras. Therefore, because it is the society of śūdras everywhere, there is confusion. No brain. Simply śocati, "want, want, want, want, want." And in brahminical culture, you will find even he is very poor brāhmaṇa, no source of income, no fixation of foodstuff even, but he is happy. He is happy. He is happy by his knowledge. He'll satisfy himself. If he does not get his food, then he will think that "This day Kṛṣṇa desired that I should not have my food. Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's pleasure. It is Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Therefore in Vedic culture, other section, the kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas, they would call the brāhmaṇas to take food. Brāhmaṇa-bhojana. Because they know, "The brāhmaṇas, they will starve; still they will not ask anybody to give him food."

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Therefore I have already explained. There must be a class of men like me. They are called brāhmaṇa. They should help others. One who cannot rise so early, they will help him by his knowledge. He, the man who cannot rise early in the morning and cannot take the brahminical principle, śūdra, kṣatriya, vaiśya, he should be helped with the knowledge acquired by the brāhmaṇa. Just like the same example. The leg. Leg is not brain. The brain will give direction to the leg, "You go this side." Then it is perfect. The leg has no brain, but the brain is there. If he takes the advice of the brain and goes... Just like... It is called the logic of blind and lame. There is a lame man and there is a blind man. The lame man cannot walk, and the blind man cannot see. They should join.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Neither it is possible. So if the brāhmaṇa and the śūdra combine together, work, then both their lives will be perfect. Here you cannot expect everyone as brāhmaṇa, in this material world. That is not possible. Because in the material world three qualities are working. So one may be brāhmaṇa, another may be kṣatriya, another may be vaiśya, another may... So they should cooperate. Then everyone's life will be perfect. That is the program. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are creating brāhmaṇas. So others, they should cooperate. Then their life will be also perfect. Just like these people are preaching that "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and refrain from sinful activities." So if people take advice from these men, simple thing... Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is not difficult. Anyone can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And no illicit sex life. No... Even one cannot follow these restrictions, if he chants, he will be benefited.

Room Conversation -- November 3, 1973, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Even if he has fallen down, half-way, still there is no wrong. He has gained something. That much service which he has already given to Kṛṣṇa, that is recorded. That is recorded. That is to his credit: "So this living entity has given service." But other men, he's very honestly living as a good citizen, as a good family member and good brāhmaṇa, good kṣatriya... So ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. He's sticking to his own principle of life, but he's not a Kṛṣṇa conscious devotee. Then what is his gain? He'll simply take the fruits of his material activities and he'll have to accept another body according to that. But here, as it is assured in Bhagavad-gītā that śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41), this man, who took by sentiment Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but could not follow it to the end; by some way or other, he has fallen but he'll be given chance to take birth as a human being, guaranteed, in rich family, or in nice devotee family, yogi family or brāhmaṇa family. So he'll be given chance.

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi:

Lady Guest: Not even brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Not exactly, yes.

Lady Guest: Not a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: But at least he's a kṣatriya.

Guest: He's a defense ministry.

Prabhupāda: Yes, defense ministry is kṣatriya and that is, that is the sanction of the śāstra.

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Just like kṣatriya. Kṣatriya's.... Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa, śauryaṁ tejaḥ, yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. These are the kṣatriya qualities. So śāstra says if these qualities are anyatrāpi dṛśyeta, if these qualities are found somewhere else.... Suppose a śūdra, a caṇḍāla, if these qualities are found there, then he should be designated by that post, not as śūdra.

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: There are many instances but this is the injunction of the śāstra. And practically also. Suppose a man is a medical practitioner. He may be born in a brāhmaṇa family or śūdra family. Nobody wants to know to which family he belongs to. If he sees that he is a medical practitioner, he has passed the MD examination and that he is practicing then people accept him as doctor, medical man.

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, we have got experience. If there is a good man, he'll do, he'll act very nice. That we have got experience. Just like if a man is honest, you can trust him. This is our experience. So similarly, if the leaders be good according to this standard, then the whole human society will be happy. This is our propaganda. We are not after the post, but we have to disclose this rascaldom, that "All these rascals, animals, fools, they are taking the post of leader, and you are suffering repeatedly, but you have no sense that 'How we can be happy with this Nixon and company's leadership?' " So therefore we want to disclose the fact, that's all. We have no ambition. Just like we are brāhmaṇas. We have nothing to do, but according to Vedic civilization, the brāhmaṇas guides the kṣatriyas how to rule. So our position is to reform the politicians.

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why we are accepting in Europe and America all them brāhmaṇa? They are not born in brāhmaṇa family. But why we are giving them sacred thread? Only for quality and work. That is said in the śāstra. Nārada Muni says that the quality and the symptoms is the real platform of judging who is brāhmaṇa, who is śūdra. Nārada said and Śrīdhara Svāmī has commented upon him that birth is immaterial. Quality and work is (indistinct). Otherwise how Caitanya Mahāprabhu can accept Haridāsa Ṭhākura as nāmācārya, the authority of the Holy Name? He was born in a Mohammedan family. And this Sanātana Gosvāmī, they are rejected from brāhmaṇa family because they're servants of Nawab Hussain Shah and they adopted Muslim way of life. Their name was also changed-Dabira Khāsa, Sākara Mallika, this Mallika (laughs), Sākara Mallika. But although they're born in brāhmaṇa family, but they're rejected from the brāhmaṇa family because they accepted service. Formerly the brāhmaṇas were so strict. Brāhmaṇa cannot accept any service. Then he becomes śūdra. To accept service is the business of the śūdra. And it is warned in the śāstra. If a brāhmaṇa becomes economically poor, he may act as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, not as a śūdra. Then it will be quite degradation. So now this, what is this brāhmaṇa, he's in service?

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They would give advice to the kings but never accept the post of a king.

Hṛdayānanda: So every kṣatriya had to have something to manage?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There was a regular advisory committee, privy council, composed of high learned brāhmaṇas and saintly persons.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think people who say like this they are jealous.

Prabhupāda: Ha?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are jealous of the other people who are coming up higher than them. So, seeing them, they are quite jealous.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... We have already separated. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is already separated.

Umāpati: So there are certain restrictions about religious organizations entering politics.

Prabhupāda: So what does it mean? Christians, they do not take part in politics?

Umāpati: Well, they can't do it as...

Karandhara: Not the churches.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, not the churches. Our gṛhasthas will take part. The sannyāsīs will give advice. Directly the gṛhasthas will fight. Gṛhastha, not gṛhastha. There should be an administrative class. That is... Now it is prescribed in the Bhagavad-gītā. There should be four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Now, it is spoken by God. Therefore it should be rejected? Does it mean? God is for everything. What is this nonsense? And Kṛṣṇa acted as kṣatriya. Therefore He should not be God? Is that very good argument? God is all-inclusive. And religion means God's word, carrying out God's word. That is religion. So how you can make separate?

Karandhara: Well, you can't, but they do.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, but don't think like that. But there are two kinds of business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). To give protection to the devotees and killing the unbeliever. These are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. (break) Yes. Government has got two departments: law and order department, military department. Why? Two things must... (break) This is their business, śūdra business. Śūdra business. Śūdras, they have no knowledge. They commit mistake over and over. Therefore brāhmaṇa required to guide the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. Therefore they are guru. Otherwise, they will commit mistake, more or less. It is practical. Just in your country, you have all elected Mr. Nixon as president, and again you are protesting. Why you are protesting? You have already elected him. What is the reasons?

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Ah. Because the kṣatriyas were not doing exactly, he twenty-one times massacred them. Finish! And those who, kṣatriyas, fled from India, they came to Europe. So the European means they are coming from the kṣatriya descendant, but they have forgotten their own culture. Indo-aryan. (break) ...strong, then there is no doubt he will be able to control all over the world. That's a fact. But we must keep ourself spiritually strong. Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. Just Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was behaving in His life and that He was teaching. (break) ...behave like spiritual man. Then you can teach. If you don't behave, then how you can teach? (break) ...was brought here.