Prabhupāda: Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, in his previous life, he elevated himself to the loving stage of Kṛṣṇa. Not exactly, just previous, bhāva. It is called bhāva, ecstasy. But some way or other, he could not finish, so according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, he was given birth to a nice brāhmaṇa family. (aside:) You can call that Bengali lady. She can hear. So very rich. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41), in that way. Rich family, at the same time, brāhmaṇa family. But richness, generally, sometimes glide down to wine, women, and intoxication. So by bad company he became woman-hunter, prostitute-hunter. So he was too much addicted to one woman, Cintāmaṇi. So his father died, and he was... He did not marry. In your country it is called girlfriend, and in our country it is called prostitute. So he was that about that prostitute, Cintāmaṇi. So he was performing the rituals, but he was thinking of his girlfriend, that Cintāmaṇi, "When I shall go there?" Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura? Yes. So he asked his servants, "Give me some food. I shall go to Cintāmaṇi." So anyway, he performed... Did not perform. His mind was there. He took some nice foodstuff, and when he went, there was a big river, and it was raining heavily, and the river was flooded. So he thought, "How shall I go the other side?" So one dead body was floating. So he thought, "It is a log," and he took the help of the log and went the other side. And it was heavy raining. And then, when he reached that Cintāmaṇi's home, he saw the door is locked already. Blocked. So he jumped over the wall, taking the tail of a serpent, and when he reached inside, he knocked the door, and Cintāmaṇi was astonished. "How did you come? So heavy rain. You had to cross the river." He said everything, that "Oh, I cannot stay without you." So she was much inquisitive: "How did you come? How did you jump over this wall?" And so he showed everything, that there was a big snake, and so he thought it as rope and jumped it.
Jump over (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No. He cannot change, but Kṛṣṇa can change.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: If he commits suicide, if somebody commits suicide, that is also preset?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not preset. That you can do, because you have got little independence. It is not natural to commit suicide. It is unnatural. So, because we have got independence, we can go from nature to unnature, and we shall be prepared for that. Just like a prisoner cannot go out of the prisonhouse naturally, but somehow or other he arranges to jump over the wall and goes away. Then he becomes again criminal, for farther (indistinct). Naturally, the prisoners cannot go out of the prisonhouse. Somehow or other, he manages to go out. That means he becomes again criminal. He will be again arrested, and his term of imprisonment will be increased, or he will be punished more. So naturally we cannot violate the destiny, but if we do it, then we suffer(?). But our destiny can be changed by Kṛṣṇa when we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. That we do not do, but Kṛṣṇa will do. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: (BG 18.66) "I shall give you protection." So that change takes place for my protection by Kṛṣṇa. There are two stages: nondevotee and devotee. The nondevotee is under the control of material nature, and devotee is under the direct control of Kṛṣṇa. Just like a big man. In the office there are many employees, they are controlled by different departmental superintendent. But the small man at home is controlling his children directly. The controller, he is controller both in the office and factory and home, but at home he is controller directly; outside home he is controller indirectly. But he is controller always. Similarly, God is controller always. When one becomes devotee, he is controlled directly by God.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So then they must know what is karma-phala. This is a fact. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). But they are..., do not know how to execute karma. They're doing all kinds of sinful activities. So, suppose after this body, on account of my sinful activities, I am going to become a rat or cat or snake or a tree, then what is the use of my so much, how you'd say, jumping over nationalism and this ism and that. If by nature I am going to accept next life the body of a cat and dog, or a tree, then what is the meaning of my, this so-called nationality at the present moment? Is it not the duty of the guardians who are taking care of the people or their son, to educate human being in such a way that they can get better body? What is that education? You are darkness, nobody knows what kind of body he's going to accept next life.
Scholar: At least we can start from living moral life.
Prabhupāda: But they're not living, they're not living. They are doing all kinds of sinful activities, they are drinking, they are having illicit sex, they're gambling, they're killing animals. Very sin... Everyone is engaged in these things. Maybe few percentage people are not engaged. But the throughout the whole world they're implicated in these four kinds of sinful activities. How you can expect that he's going to have next body very nice? No. That is not possible if you believe in karma. According to karma... Just like here in the human society there is law that if you kill a man, you should be also killed. Similarly, in God's laws so the same law is there. Māṁ sa, māṁsa. If I eat an animal then he will have the chance to eat me next life. This is karma. Who is caring for all these things? Who is caring? Nobody's caring. They're slaughtering animals like anything. So this kind of adjustment will not help. They must know scientifically what is the value of life. They must take information from authorized scriptures. Then the human society will be profitable. Otherwise no.
Prabhupāda: No, it doesn't mat... Therefore they're all madmen. You can speak in your own way. I'll speak in my own way and another fool thinks that both of them are scientists. They do not agree. Still he's scientist. Just see. Cheaters and the cheated. Somebody's cheating and somebody's becoming cheated. The whole society's the combination of cheaters and cheated. That's all. I see both of them, they do not agree. Just like they have rejected religion because two religionists, they do not agree. So why not these rascal scientists? They do not agree. Just see. They are so fool. But still they are after that. Their modern people they have rejected religion because they say that one religionist does not agree with another religionist. So there is no... Skepticism. So why not about the scientists? Just see. Everywhere you will find contradiction. Therefore anyone... and we are find out this contradiction because we have little attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Others cannot find out. We are challenging scientists, philosophers, although we are teeny person, because we have little attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, who is detecting their follies? Nobody. The scientist's follies, the philosopher follies, their contradiction... A devotee can find out. Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. Unless one is highly enlightened, one cannot find out these defects, contradiction. Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. We have got simple formulas in the śāstras. Simply on the basis of those formulas... Whole Vedic literature is like that. Just like Āyurveda, Āyurveda or astrology. Everything is like that. Āyurveda, the medicine. They have to learn only the beating of the pulse. If one becomes expert in which way the pulse beating is going on... They have got example. Just like some birds jump over like this. Some bird goes like this. So they have got example how the pulse is beating, jumping or easily going. So the symptoms, if one can study, he becomes physician, first-class. Immediately. Because as soon as he can study the pulse, how it is beating, in which way... That is, that requires little experience. Then immediately the formula is that if the pulse is beating in this way, then these symptoms will be there. And he will ask the patient...
Prabhupāda: Yes. When in future you become high-court judge, then I shall give you credit. Why before you want to take credit?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So one has to have certain qualifications.
Prabhupāda: Everyone has got. The bird has got also certain qualifications. What is this. You cannot jump over like that. Just see how it is doing, a small bird. He has got complete sense how to protect. He's doing his business. So everyone has got some qualification, by nature's gift. One bird can go seven miles away and he can see where is his food. You cannot see half a mile even. What is the value of your eyes in comparison to that bird? There are so many wonderful things done by the animals, without any scientific knowledge, so-called scientific knowledge. So scientific knowledge for material comforts, that knowledge is there even in the birds and beasts, for material comforts. They know how to do it. Why these laboratories? There is no need of. Because if your knowledge is for these four things, eating, sleeping and mating, then what is the value of such knowledge? The bird will also die after eating, sleeping. You'll also die after eating, sleeping. Then where is the advancement of knowledge. You have not improved in any way than the birds and the beasts. You cannot check death. The bird also cannot check death. Then where is the advancement? Simply the bird is finding out food by the beaks, and you eat on a table, chair. Therefore you are advanced? You are also eating, he's also eating. He's eating his own way. You are eating in his own way. Does it mean advancement? But when death comes, the bird will be also kicked out, you'll be also kicked out. Then where is your advancement.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Buddhist Monk (1): If one radiates love and kindness...
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Defense is allowed to everyone. You must defend. That is another thing. But ordinarily, not that because a lion has got jaws and teeth, therefore he's simply jumping over. Not like that. Even people have experienced that when the, these ferocious animals, they are not hungry, they don't attack. They don't attack.
Haṁsadūta: They don't bother.
Prabhupāda: No. Or if you keep a pet lion, give him sumptuously to eat, he'll not... That is experienced. I have seen in the World Fair in, in... One man was keeping a lion and a tiger, and playing just like with dog. Just like sometimes dogs, they pounce over the master. Same thing. They were doing like that. I have seen it. They have tamed the lion and tiger like that.
Buddhist Monk (1): Even the carnivores could be trained to be vegetarians.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Buddhist Monk (1): They could easily be. It is only habit and custom.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sometimes questions are raised saying that how do we know that a bird is more intelligent than a human being.
Prabhupāda: :Yes, bird is more intelligent.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are posing that...
Prabhupāda: Just like, just like, here is a bird, as soon as he see so many men are coming, he'll jump over you. You are not intelligent to jump over. Suppose someone is coming to stab you; you cannot jump. Therefore bird is more intelligent.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How do we know that they're not (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: Ah? No, they'll know enemy is coming, even if he says, animals they know. As soon as there is enemy, they take protection.
Devotee (2): :But they take the hook.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Devotee (2): :But the fish take the hook.
Prabhupāda: Hook?
Devotee (2): :When the man is fishing with the hook, the fish that takes the hook...?
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the... Therefore Vedas says, uttiṣṭhata. "Get up, get up, get up!" Jāgṛta. "Become awakened." Prāpya varaṁ nibodhata. "Now you have got the opportunity. Utilize it." This is Vedic injunction. Uttiṣṭhata jāgṛta prāpya varaṁ nibodhata. This is Vedic in... Tamasi mā jyotir gama. These are Vedic injunctions. So we are preaching the same thing, that "Reality is here, Kṛṣṇa. Don't remain in this darkness. Come to this consciousness." That is our preaching. Tamasi mā jyotir gama. (break) ...experienced the sunshine, bright day, and this gloomy day. So when you are in darkness, we must have to admit, "There is light." Because darkness means absence of light. So as we are in the darkness of this material existence, there must be something life of light. That is spiritual world. That is reality. (break) ...ahaṁ brahmāsmi. "Oh, I don't belong to this darkness, darkness atmosphere. I belong to the light atmosphere." That is self-realization. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi.
- brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
- na śocati na kāṅkṣati
- samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
- (BG 18.54)
This is brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20) stage. Just like this is a cakra. I am walking on this wheel. But I am thinking I am advancing. What is this advancement? It is already there. Just like they are advancing in science and they must remain here. They are trying for so many years to go to the Moon planet, and no result. (laughs) The same, same thing. "Now we are going to the moon planet." But coming again. That's all. So saṁsāra-cakra. Just like the dog. Dog is sometimes barking: "Gata-gata-gata-gata!" The master says, "Come on." Immediately come. He thinks that "I have got freedom. Let me jump over." You see. So we are thinking like that. We are under the māyā's clutches. "Come on, come on here." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). He's under the reins of prakṛti. He cannot go anywhere. (pause) (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this yajña means to satisfy the Lord. Yajñārthe karma. So when you miss this yajña, then everything becomes disturbed. When you become godless then the whole thing will be disturbed. And practically also, if you pay income tax, then government arrangement is everything, nicely going on. And as soon as stop income tax, then whole thing... There is no finance, there is deficit, this, that, so many things. So yajña is yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra. Everything should be done for the Yajña, for Viṣṇu. Then everything is in order. In Kali-yuga, other, costly yajñas are not possible. Therefore yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. Saṅkīrtana. But these rascals will not take. If you say that "This simple yajña, you take it. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. All problems will be solved," they will not believe. They will not take it. They are so misfortunate. Śāstra says, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Su-medhasaḥ. Those who have got good brain, they take up this yajña process. Su-medhasaḥ. And another word is alpa-medhasaḥ, less brain substance. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). They are doing all other things, but not yajña. Therefore alpa-medhasām: their brain substance is small. And here is su-medhasaḥ. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). That is the sign of merit: You do something which will produce good result. And if you, cats and dogs, if you simply jump over, what you will do result? That Lilavati Munshi of Bombay, she is the wife of a big man, K. Munshi. So she was asking, "Swamiji, how you made like this?" Everyone is surprised because nobody has done like this. I said that "Because I have taken the proper method, therefore it is done so nicely." The method must be right. It may be simple, but it must be right method.
Prabhupāda: No, that case was different.
Bali Mardana: So it is all right.
Prabhupāda: Then the spiritual master has to go every time, to fall down? Because people will touch. That is natural. And he has to jump over the water every time?
Nitāi: In the purport you gave recommendation that generally it is not a good practice to let them, unless they are at least your devotees.
Prabhupāda: Generally, it is not practiced, but if people come, how can you check them? (pause) So we were talking about Darwin's theory, eh? What is that?
Nitāi: It is survival of the fittest, his evolutionary theory?
Prabhupāda: Now, we talked about that if you do not take my documentary, what is called, evidence, why shall I take your documentary?
Bali Mardana: I think the only reason it is accepted is because it was very popular among the atheists. They said, "Oh, yes, let us support this idea."
Prabhupāda: Yes, but there is theist class also.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Viṣṇujana: The farrow bird.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Viṣṇujana: He'll call.
Prabhupāda: This is the position. "You wanted to become a sera. All right, you become a sera. Jump over some animal and immediately suck his blood." All facility is—the nails, the teeth-given. But is he happy? But everyone thinking that "If I could become like this, I would have been happy." So Kṛṣṇa gives all chance. "All right, you become this." This is transmigration. This is transmigration. (break) ...yathāndhair upa... We are thinking something like that, and Kṛṣṇa is giving us chance, "All right, you take this chance; you become like this." Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). But it will not make you happy. Therefore ultimately says, sarva-dharmān. "You give up all this rascaldom. What I speak, you can accept. That is your dharma." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam... (BG 18.66). That will be beneficial for you, the most confidential instruction. There is that story that one old woman, she was suffering. And she had to collect woods from the forest and sell in the market. So one day, how do you say, she was praying to Kṛṣṇa, or God, that "Kindly help me. I am in very poverty-stricken." So one day, she was carrying that load of fuel. It fell down. So nobody was there to help him. So she began to cry, "Who will help me?" So she began to pray to God "Kindly help me." And God came: "What do you want?" "Who are you, Sir?" "I am God." "Kindly help me to take this burden on my head." Yes. "All right." From God, she's asking, "Please help me to get this burden on my head." That's all. So everyone is going on, "Let family be very happy, my son be married. He may... Let him pass MA examination." But it is the same thing, "Give me the burden on my head." This is the prayer. Mūḍhāḥ. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). The life was meant for understanding Kṛṣṇa and worship Him, and he's asking, "Give me the burden on my head." Therefore mūḍha, rascal, fool. He's asking something which will never make him happy, even by merging into the effulgence, Brahman effulgence. It will never make him happy. But he does not know. Therefore he's mūḍha, rascal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...office, you cannot contact the proprietor directly. There are subordinate officers. Through them you have to take the proprietor's help. The office master is there. You have to satisfy the office master. You cannot directly approach the proprietor. If you satisfy the office master, then your promotion and other things is all right. But if you want to... I have got practical experience. One of my friend, he was working in office. So the proprietor was there and many other employees were there. So that my friend, he suggested something to the proprietor, and the proprietor immediately dismissed him: "Oh, this man want to suggest me. Dismiss immediately. Give him his pay he will require." In that I have got practical experience. He later on became so sorry. Now it is the process. So this is practical. We should not try to approach directly Kṛṣṇa. That is not the right way. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ: (CC Madhya 13.80) "I am the servant of the servant of." So you have to serve your immediate master, dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, servant of the Supreme Lord. If you want to jump over the original master, that is not good. Then you will be dismissed like, like my friend.
Harikeśa: Associating with you is so wonderful, and yet...
Prabhupāda: Just like here in Vṛndāvana, I was here, as I am sitting here. I was sitting here in this very place. That was (indistinct). And when I was hungry I could take my food there, same place. So that is one thing. Just like there are many persons, but because my spiritual master wanted, so I, at seventy years old, when I thought, "Now I shall go," I went, to serve the order of my spiritual master. Otherwise I am sitting here in Vṛndāvana. I am old man, I was chanting. Therefore, because that is my first business.
Prabhupāda: ...and they would all come to our place in procession, and we shall feed them. This program should be started immediately. And so that the whole day and night this nuisance will go on.
Guru dāsa: Maybe we should occupy the L.I.C. grounds in Delhi with kīrtana.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guru dāsa: We should occupy the L.I.C. grounds in Delhi with kīrtana?
Prabhupāda: No... No, you are jumping over... Now, the question is in Bombay. Why you are jumping in Delhi?
Guru dāsa: But they asked us in L.I.C. the same thing. They asked us to leave L.I.C. grounds because the kīrtana was nuisance.
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. That chapter is now...
Guru dāsa: I see.
Prabhupāda: ...in prominence. Don't come near.
Devotee: We could go to the... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...that they're planning the same plan as they did. This is the preliminary sign.
Gupta: Swami Mahārāja, our program should enter the streets in the houses of different people and saṅkīrtana should be start from there, and...
Dr. Patel: (laughs) You have hypnotized them.
Prabhupāda: No, actually they are doing. Although we see that from bodily point of view they have become weak, but they don't care for it. They... You see. If they had been weak how they are chanting and dancing saṅkīrtana? They are not weak at all. (Hindi) (break) "Now let me dance." Then I shall jump over your head." (Patel laughs) This is philosophy. "Now I am dāsa, then I become your master."
Dr. Patel: How can you be master when I am nothing? When I am dāsa, then I will be nothing before you.
Prabhupāda: That is voidism. You are something. How you are nothing?
Dr. Patel: How can you be the master of a master?
Prabhupāda: That is not possible, but these Māyāvādīs tries for this.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: These Māyāvādīs, they want to become the master. (Hindi) (break)
Prabhupāda: They are Māyāvādī?
Dr. Patel: No. They are Vaiṣṇavas. All Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: But they worship...
Prabhupāda: Without understanding, if you follow like a storm, that is no use. That is no use. Slow, but sure. Go slow... And that is the defect in the modern. If somebody can recite Bhagavad-gītā like storm, it is to be understood he has perfected himself. No. Let him explain at least one word of Bhagavad-gītā. That is wanted. Slow, but sure. That is going on. The professional Bhāgavata reciters, they jump over Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā. The rascal does not explain the first line of Bhāgavatam, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). It requires many years to understand that one word, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), and he jumps over, "Bhāgavata recitation means rāsa-līlā." That is going on. That has spoiled the whole atmosphere. Therefore that rascal has been able to challenge that Kṛṣṇa, that, what is that, rural?
Satsvarūpa: "Popular rural god with sixteen thousand wives."
Prabhupāda: That's it. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. And he is writing about Kṛṣṇa, "rural boy with sixteen thousand..." First of all, he does not know that when Kṛṣṇa was rural boy in Vṛndāvana he had no sixteen thousand wives. You see. Still, these rascals say, "rural boy with sixteen thousand wives."
Dr. Patel: When He had this rāsa dance, he was only seven years.
Prabhupāda: This is the consideration. By policy if he could save his wife, that first. He was following like that...
Girirāja: " 'If in the future I get a child who can kill Kaṁsa, just as Kaṁsa is thinking, then both Devakī and the child will be saved, because the law of providence is inconceivable. But now someway or other let me save the life of Devakī.' " (break)
Prabhupāda: ...jumps. In the village also there is experience, when there is fire, it jumps over another house, leaving one house in the middle.
Girirāja: "Similarly, a living entity may be very careful and fearful in the matter of executing his duties, but it is still very difficult for him to know what type of body he is going to get in the next life. Mahārāja Bharata was very faithfully executing the duties of self-realization, but by chance he contacted temporary affection for a deer, and he had to accept his next life in the body of a deer." (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not liberal. He was truthful. He used to bring all the sons as soon as born to Kaṁsa, and he was killing.
Girirāja: "Kaṁsa knew the value of Vasudeva's word of honor and he was convinced by his arguments. For the time being he desisted from the heinous killing of his sister. Thus Vasudeva was pleased and praised the decision of Kaṁsa. In this way he returned to his home. After due course of time Vasudeva and Devakī gave birth to eight male children as well as..." (break)
Prabhupāda: As soon as... Just like dog he does not know that he is controlled by the master, "Tch tch tch tch," chain. He does not know. He is thinking, "I am now free. Rau! Rau! Rau! Rau! Rau!" This is the position, no difference between the dog and so-called big, big men. If the dog thinks that he is free and he can jump over anywhere freely, is it possible? No. Fully controlled under the master. He has accepted this control.
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Especially in the western countries, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the people do not like to think that they are controlled or that they are...
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. He is controlled in every step, and he is thinking... Therefore rascals. In spite of this big, big house, nice road and good car, they are rascals. But he thinks falsely. He thinks that he is independent; He will not die. Then why does he think like that, like a foolish man? As soon as māyā kicks on his face, he will die. That's all. Immediately. "I have got some business, sir." "No, no, you must die immediately." And still, he thinks that he is not controlled. What is this nonsense? We shall go that side? That is knowledge, that "In spite of my all so-called advancement of civilization, I am controlled." That is knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Then he should think how to get out of it. That is intelligence. And if, like cats and dogs, he thinks that "I am not controlled," then he is no better than cats and dogs. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). By prakṛti, by nature, he is pulled by the ears, "Come here!" "Yes, sir." "Come there!" "Yes, sir." And he is thinking, not controlled. As soon as he eats little more than he requires, "You must starve three days!" And he is not controlled. Just see. How much foolishness. And they are getting Nobel Prize. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19).
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are opening school for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore the rascals, they cannot understand what is bhakti and what is karma. Bhakti looks like karma, but it's not karma. It is bhakti. They cannot understand what is bhakti. Bhakti means the same karma, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is bhakti. Just like the same fight, battlefield, but because it was done for Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna is accepted, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: (BG 4.3) "You are My devotee. You are My very dear." But what did he do? His business was to fight. He fought, that's all. But fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is the secret. He did not change his fighting capacity as a warrior. But he changed his mentality. His mentality was that "Why shall I kill my kinsmen?" But Kṛṣṇa wanted, "Oh, that's all right." So therefore service is for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Not for his sense gratification. Karmī means sense gratification, and bhakta means Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. That is the difference. Sense gratification is there. When you do it for your personal sense grati..., it is karma. And you do it for Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification, it is bhakti. So therefore they look similar, but the quality is different. Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Dhare prema nāma. The gopīs, they acted like prostitutes, but the center was Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, ramyā kacid upāsanā vrajavadhu-vargena ya kalpita (?): "Oh there is no more better mode of worship than it was conceived by the gopīs." What is their conception? Prostitution, that's all. Simple prostitute. Kṛṣṇa was a beautiful boy and they were attracted by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa. They wanted Him as their husband, lover, to dance with them. That is the gopīs. And these rascals are taking that "This is very good. Kṛṣṇa also did like this. So let us do; gather some girls and dance, and we become Kṛṣṇa." This is Māyāvāda, Therefore Vyāsadeva has devoted nine cantos just to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then try to understand what is the gopīs' behavior with Kṛṣṇa. But these rascals jump over it. Sahajiyās. Jump over Kṛṣṇa's dealing with the gopīs. And that is Bhāgavata. Because rascals, they shall remain rascal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the law of nature, that every living being is eating another living being. That is stated in the Vedic śāstra.
- ahastāni sahastānām
- apadāni catuṣ-padām
- phalgūni tatra mahatāṁ
- jīvo jīvasya jīvanam
That "Those who have no hands—that means animals—they are food for the animal who has got hands. And those who have no legs, they are food for the four-legged." Just like grass has no legs, but it is a food fo the cows and the goats. Apadāni catuṣ-padām, phalgūni tatra mahatām: "Then one who is powerful, very powerful..." Just like tiger, he jumps over another animal. So because the other animal is weak and this animal is strong, so in this way, the feeding is going on, one living being for the other. But when you come to the... That is nature. The tiger will never eat grass. But we human being, we eat grass, goat, cows and everything. Because advanced, so-called advanced. But our foodstuff is to accept the remnants of foodstuff which is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Just like in this temple, we don't eat anything. Neither we eat grass, neither we eat animals. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasāda. So Kṛṣṇa says that "You give Me these foodstuffs." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we are not eating on the material platform. We are eating on the spiritual platform. Because we are eating, if there is anything sinful, that is Kṛṣṇa's.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: The students, they are going to school, college, and they are talking of sex. Where is tapasya? How it is possible? So therefore bhakti-yoga is the only way of spiritual improvement in this age—all age, especially in this age. No other method will help you-yoga, karma, jñāna, nothing. Bhakti-yoga is always strong, especially in this age, Kali-yuga. Therefore it is said, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva, especially. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva... (CC Adi 17.21). This is the simplest. But people do not know what is the ultimate goal of life. They are so much in ignorance. They do not know what is spiritual life, what is ultimate goal. Simply like cats and dogs. The dog jumps over with four legs, and if a man can jump over with four wheels, then that is advance. Just see. They think, "Now we are advanced. We have got four-wheel car to jump over. And the dog is jumping with legs. Therefore this is advanced." They do not know this is also the same dog's business. They do not know it. (break) ...again they have made this car, coming from miles away, but the business is fishing. Just see. Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. "Advancement of civilization, we have got car, we are nicely dressed, we are human being, ev..." But what is your business? Fishing. Bambhārambhe... Ārambha, gorgeous arrangement—the business is the same. The skylark, what is called? Skylark? These birds?
Devotee (1): Oh, the seagulls. Seagull.
Prabhupāda: ...which is fact? The dreams and phases of different life while passing through, they are facts or I am fact? What is your answer? We are teaching that, you take care of the fact, not of the dreams. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We are changing circumstances. The circumstances are not fact but the whole world is taking care of the circumstances not of the sheer fact. This is the defect of modern civilization. We are very much serious about the passing on circumstances, but we are not serious about the person who is going through the circumstances. This is the whole defect of modern civilization. And that is the beginning of real life. If we take care of the circumstances, that is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs, everyone. Where to find eatables, where to find sex, where to find shelter for sleeping, and how to defense—these circumstances are understood by the animals. There is no need of education. Just like this morning I pointed out. The bird is catching a small fish, "Fut!" He knows where to find out his eatable. And that you cannot do. You also eat fish, but you jump over and take a fish. You cannot do that. But he can do that. He is more expert than you. (guests chuckle) Yes. In the troubled water, he is flying. He can see a small fish and immediately pick it up. Can you do that? So he is more advanced in civilization. (laughter) He knows his techniques. He is greater scientist than you. You cannot do this. A vulture goes seven miles up, and he can see where is a dead body. So even amongst the animals there are many expert scientists than our so-called scientists. But what that science will help? That science may help how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. That's all. And that is being done by the animals. It doesn't require any advanced scientific knowledge.
Satsvarūpa: Sometimes in those mass killings pious men are killed also. At Kurukṣetra many pious men were killed?
Prabhupāda: Well, when there is killing, it is not that the pious men... But mostly they were saved. The Pāṇḍavas were saved. The five brothers, they remained. Now the moon is sour. Grapes are sour? (laughter) The jackal jumped over to catch some grapes, and when he fell, "Eh, what is the use of grapes? It is sour." The jackal said. So this is... Now they say there is, that is not good for him. "Let us go to Venus. (laughter) Moon is sour." And why you spent so much money? (break) ...stone man has come. That is the museum.
Brahmānanda: Stone?
Prabhupāda: How from stone...
Kuruśreṣṭha: Anthropologists.
Prabhupāda: Modern stone does not produce. They have become modernized? (laughter) (break)
Kuruśreṣṭha: In Dvaraka, when Kṛṣṇa was here, they would have such parks?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Kuruśreṣṭha: Nice walkways?
Prabhupāda: Mmm. Better than this.
Prabhupāda: Why you are forced?
Devotee (4): Because of conditioning.
Prabhupāda: Then that you have to admit that you are conditioned by some authority. When you are put into jail, you cannot act independently. You have to act according to the jail superintendent's order.
Devotee (3): Prabhupāda, is our desire to be eternal, blissful and full of knowledge...
Prabhupāda: Now let me finish. You will never be able to understand if you jump over like that. Let one thing be understood.
Devotee (4): So he admits he's conditioned, but still, there's no free will. He says, "Yeah, so I'm in the prison. I'm imprisoned. I'm conditioned."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Free will... Just like a man commits theft by his free will. But when he is put into jail, then no more free will. He has to act according to the jail superintendent. But his beginning of jail life is free will. Nobody asked him that "You go to jail." But why he has come? He knows also that "When I am put into jail, I will lose all my freedom." He knows that. Still, he comes. Why does he come? He knows that. That is called ajñāna. Mūḍha. That is called mūḍha. He knows; still, he does.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He is taking a chance.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that means he is becoming implicated.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bahulāśva: And it has no material properties.
Prabhupāda: As soon as you accept energy, then you must enquire what is the source of the energy? Energy is produced. Just like here is energy, but it is produced under certain arrangement. Where the energy is being produced? If you accept energy, that is knowledge. Now, just like electrical energy is, what is called, generated in the powerhouse. You cannot say the electrical energy has jump over. It is being generated. Eh?
Bahulāśva: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Then wherefrom this electric energy is coming? Where is the generating house? You cannot say that electric ener..., so many electrical light, they have come all of a sudden, no. There is a regular generating house. So where is that generating house? What is their reply?
Bahulāśva: They have none.
Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: You may get some of them to admit that they don't know, but then they'll think, "No one knows." They will say, "Well, no one knows that."
Prabhupāda: No, because you are rascal, therefore you cannot say that everyone is rascal. You rascal, you do not know. But we know because we are not rascals. We know. Kṛṣṇa says, aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). So we know. You do not know, you rascal. But we know. Then what is the answer?
Prabhupāda: So why that eight thousand was not utilized to finish this business? BBT might be delayed, but what is this? Everything is unfinished. Huh? The doors are neither colored, neither painted, neither polished. As you have no money. And you are getting money and all going to the belly. So do rightly. You are so big, big heads. Baro baro badare baro baro pet laṅka dingake mata kare het: "Big, big monkey, big, big belly-Ceylon jumping, melancholy." Huh? With big belly a monkey comes forward, and if you ask him, "Jump over like Hanumānji," finished, belly finished. These are Bengali words. Baro baro badare baro baro pet laṅka dingake mata kare het. "I cannot do it." And why you have got so much belly? So this is not good. Make plan. You'll go on plan-making. Oh, you'll never be done. What can be done? I want to get rid of the management, but when I see, I have to see the management, how can I remain stopped? As soon as I see things are mismanaged, I have to say. I am not dumb. So this is the... And you report that "Everything is first class." What is this first class? Do you know meaning of first class? This is first class?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm sorry. I...
Prabhupāda: That's all. You simply become sorry and everything is finished. That's all. I do not know what to do. (break) ... whatever you like. Whatever like, what can I do? (Bengali conversation) So what are you going to do about this finishing? Everything... (Hindi?)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll start getting it done now.
Prabhupāda: First of all let them prove their theory. Then we shall prove ours. We are proving. We have got our own way. But why they are speaking all this nonsense? First of all let him prove that he is genuine. Then our turn will be next. Ours is very easy. Kṛṣṇa said to sun-god, and sun-god said to his son, his son, his son. It is coming like that. Where is the difficulty? Again Kṛṣṇa says, "Now it is mismanaged. It is lost, so I am saying again to you Arjuna." So what Arjuna has understood, we are understanding the same way. How Arjuna understood it, that is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is the… We have no difficulty. But you jump over: "There is link," that "Once only from monkey came." What is this nonsense? We have to believe this? Has it any sense? And because Mr. Darwin is speaking we have to accept it? We cannot…
Harikeśa: Well, certain changes take place. Just like when it is very hot, if you are in a hot climate all the time your blood thins.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. No, no. This is not…
Harikeśa: Well, if you take that further, all of these changes that mount up to some big physical change.
Prabhupāda: No change is taken. The nature is working symmetrically always. The sun is rising in the morning. That is going on for million, million, million, millions of years.
Harikeśa: Gradually the change has taken place in a very scientific way, step by step.
Prabhupāda: What change has taken place?
Harikeśa: First the hairs fell off…
Prabhupāda: Yes, doglike man's. We don't keep dog. But we don't hate dog also. Let them keep their own position. In India still, they keep dog, but dog is not allowed to enter the room. No, outside. They are trained up in that way. When food is to be given, they will call, "Come on," and he will take food from outside and go away, always remain outside. Dog is never allowed to enter room or in the house. Outside compound, that's all. Still. No dog is allowed to enter the room and jump over the body of the master and sit down with the seat. No. What is that?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These are marigolds. In the summertime, each one of these little seedlings, we transplant them. They give many, many nice yellow flowers with fragrance. We make garlands for Gaura-Nitai.
Devotee (1): It was in the paper that one lady left four million dollars to her dogs, to dogs in general, to help dogs. Last week, Roosevelt family.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Four million dollars. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...also a Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.
Prabhupāda: And the slaughterhouse?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't care about slaughterhouse.
Prabhupāda: This is their civilization. "Killing is not cruelty."
Harikeśa: They don't do it cruelly. They do it very quickly.
Harikeśa: So the incentive is the happiness in society?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... Everyone is hankering after: "Where is happiness?" This will be the happiness. When people will be peaceful, happy in their living condition, that will bring happiness, not by imagining that "If I have got a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and then jump over and commit suicide. That is going on. He is thinking that "If I have a skyscraper building, I will be happy," and when he is frustrated, he jumps down. That is going on. This is happiness. That means all rascals. They do not know what is happiness. Therefore everyone requires guidance from Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now you were saying that there is high rate of suicide here?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Why? This is the country possessing gold mine, and why they are...? And you said that it is difficult to become poor here.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You have to try hard to become poor man here.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And still there is suicide. Why? Every man is rich man, and why he is committing suicide? Hm? Can you reply?
Devotee (1): They lack central happiness?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But Arjuna is fighting for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, no... You try one point. Arjuna's fighting is... That is all right. So what is your question? The subject matter was different. Now you jump over to another. Why?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (1): So everything is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This understanding, that soul is different from the body, it is meant for the dhīra, not for the adhīra. There are two classes men, dhīra and adhīra. So adhīra
means busy fool, and dhīra means lazy intelligent. But our, this movement is meant both for the dhīra and adhīra. Adhīra. We can make them really human beings. Never mind he is dhīra or adhīra. It is so nice movement. Dhīrādhīra. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra priyau. It is very pleasing both for the dhīras and adhīras. Why not? What we are doing? We invite people, "Please come here. Chant, dance, and take prasāda." So both the dhīras and adhīras, they will be attracted. Dhīrādhīra priya. (break) You cannot make everyone dhīra; that is not possible. There is necessity of adhīra also. That is also... But it should be guided by the dhīra.
Indian man (1): Adhīra should be guided by the dhīra.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Harikeśa: Yes. They've found that.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you try for it? (laughter) You are supporter of Darwin's theory. (laughter)
Harikeśa: They may find them swinging through the trees.
Prabhupāda: Jump over from tree to tree. I have seen here. There is...
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Cyavana: In this area there are monkeys.
Prabhupāda: Very... and they are also chased by another bird, monkey-eating bird. They'll go and capture and take him and throw him in the ground, and he falls down and dies. Then the bird eats. You know the monkey-eating birds? I have seen in Los Angeles zoo. Not very big, but they want to eat monkeys.
Harikeśa: Oh, the monkey-eating birds in Los... Yes.
Prabhupāda: So for eating, sleeping, mating and defending, everyone has got full intelligence. This monkey-eating bird also knows how to do his job. So that is not intelligence. Even this lowest-class bird, they... Even small flies, they also know all tricks how to exist, struggle for existence.
Harikeśa: Once in Vṛndāvana you were sitting in your room, and I had some bananas on the right-hand side. Do you remember this?
Prabhupāda: How it is, that?
Dr. Patel: It is so, sir.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Our science says so. Your science may not. And we don't want to clash the sciences here. Let us talk about philosophy.
Prabhupāda: You science... (laughs) Jump over.
Dr. Patel: Chandra is the upagraha, isn't it? As guru has got many such grahas.
Prabhupāda: It is one of the celestial planets. And they say there is no life.
Dr. Patel: It is not self-luminous. All grahas are not self-luminous. When we observe in the sky, those stars are bleeping like this. The grahas are straight as that, the Sukra behind us, just steady light.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...philosophy is also incorrect, there is no life after death.
Dr. Patel: Who says so?
Prabhupāda: Oh, so many, all Westerners.
Dr. Patel: The Easterns... That does not mean... The Eastern philosophy is only with the jāgrati stage. But the jīva has got three stages, and the fourth stage, the turīya stage, is the real stage that we understand. They don't have idea of it, unfortunately. So that philosophy is not the real philosophy of life. Life as a whole should have its own philosophy. They don't understand that there is anything beyond the jāgrati stage.
Harikeśa: That's a perfect example.
Prabhupāda: He loses his own bread and there is no other bread. That's all. (Sanskrit) The lion he thought there is another lion within the well, and jumped over it. He lost his life, that's all. This going on. So, he's so strong, lion, it is fabulously strong, but he's animal. In spite of so much strength, he's an animal. Similarly this modern civilization, in spite of so much so-called advancement, they are simply animals. That's all. A big animal is eulogized by another small animal, that's all. Animal is animal, big animal or small. (pointing out on the road) Just see he hasn't got master, and what is his condition?
Harikeśa: Pretty bad.
Prabhupāda: This is śūdra. If anyone depends on the master's mercy, he's a śūdra. Here in New Delhi, these big, big buildings, big, big officers, as soon as the government will fail, they will be street dogs, that's all. Now they are plundering, by official instrument. Now when the government will be finished, they will be street dog. That's all. This is your civilization. Immediately if all of a sudden there is attack in New Delhi, all the people will starve. There is no food at all, and they'll die.
Harikeśa: That's a really important point that the government takes more and more, and everybody gets poorer and poorer.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was indebted to his guru.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Certainly he must be. Certainly he must be. Because by the mercy, guru takes the compassion that "These are suffering in this material world," he goes door to door and tries to save him. And if one forgets guru and jumps over to serve Kṛṣṇa, he is not a devotee.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Guru-druha.
Prabhupāda: He is not a devotee. Mad-bhaktya... There is a verse. Kṛṣṇa says that "Worship of My devotee is greater worship than to Me."
Śāstrījī: Mad bhaktyā yānti mām.(?)
Prabhupāda: And Lord Śiva, he advises Parvati when she was questioning.... Oh, there is no stair from inside? You have to go like this?
Bhavānanda: No, ladder, there is outside stair that has to be fixed yet. It is just now finished in two stories.
Prabhupāda: Outside?
Bhavānanda: Outside stairs.
Prabhupāda: How?
Prabhupāda: So you are so intelligent, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura was not so intelligent that he could place him. But you are so very intelligent, you are surpassing Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. So you are intelligent or fool? You should answer like this.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jumping over guru.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Monkey's business.
Prabhupāda: He could not understand where Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura should be placed. You have understood. You are so intelligent, overintelligent. That means rascals. Overintelligent means rascal. Bhaktisiddhānta Ṭhākura, he remained so many years and he could not understand. You have understood to make Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura a gatekeeper. You tell him next time when you..., that "You are overintelligent." (break) ...statue of..., picture, I think, of Bhakti... That Sakhi Babu.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which bābu?
Prabhupāda: Sakhi Babu.
Jayapatākā: Yes, Sakhi Babu, he is there.
Bhavānanda: Opposite.
Prabhupāda: Not rejected. "Yes, it is not very important." Eho bāhya: "This is external." Āge kaha āra: "If you know something more." So the varṇāśrama-dharma is a good help undoubtedly, but it is not important for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise how could I start this movement in the Western country? There was no varṇāśrama-dharma. But that did not hamper my movement. Now people are surprised: "How these people have become such great devotees." So it was not based on varṇāśrama-dharma, no, because the whole movement is spiritual. It starts from the spiritual platform, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). Samāśritā ye pada-pallava-plavaṁ mahat-padaṁ puṇya-yaśo murāreḥ, bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ param. Now just like here is a gap. So you can go by the bridge, and if you can jump over, that is also going. That is also going. So to become Kṛṣṇa conscious means to jump over to the spiritual platform immediately. And this varṇāśrama-dharma, sannyāsa, varṇa-tyāga, karma-tyāga, these are different steps only. But if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious seriously, then you jump over all these steps; you go immediately. That lift and the staircase. By staircase you go step by step. By lift you can go immediately, faster.
Hṛdayānanda: Even some of these women, they're not married but they are serving Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ (BG 9.32). This striya, generally they take it, "Even she is prostitute," striya. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim: "They can also go back to home, back to Godhead." Māṁ hi pārtha... If he takes Kṛṣṇa very seriously, then everything is possible. No impediment. Ahaituky apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa devotional service is so strong that it cannot be checked by any material impediments. The smārtas, they are thinking like that, "How these mlecchas and yavanas can become a brāhmaṇa?" But they do not know that by Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can jump over. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Māyā is very strong. Therefore there are gradual process. Varṇāśrama-dharma, karma-tyāga, this, that, so many things, pious activities, rituals. But this is the process, step by step, to cross over māyā. But Kṛṣṇa said, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa sincerely, immediately he crosses over. As Kṛṣṇa says in another place, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: (BG 18.66) "I'll do immediately." So māyā means pāpa. Unless one is sinful, he cannot be in māyā. So if one surrenders, then he, means, immediately crosses over māyā. So these smārta brāhmaṇas, they consider this thing. They are thinking, "How a person born in other families, they can become brāhmaṇa?"
Hṛdayānanda: So they have no faith in devotional service.
Prabhupāda: No, they are...
Prabhupāda: That means you are so ignorant. You are so ignorant. The law of God, law is.... God is personally speaking, "This is the law." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the law. God is speaking personally, and you do not know? And you are advertising very expert in reading Bhagavad-gītā, and you do not know the law? This is going on. Big, big scholars, big, big monkey, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times daily, but do not know what is law. This is going on. In Bengali there is a saying, "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." You know the monkey, big monkey, Hanumānjī. He jumped over. So ask any other monkey, "Can you jump?"—melancholy. (laughter) Similarly, big, big scholars of Bhagavad-gītā and do not know what is the law of God. This is going on. Big, big commentary, big, big book, but the law he does not know.
Reporter (2): Your Divine Grace, this is actually not very relevant to the press conference, but have you ever met people like the Sai Baba or Bala Yogeshwara or...
Prabhupāda: Why shall I meet these nonsense? Why shall I meet? What is the business? Fools and rascals may meet them. Why shall I meet? What can I get from them? What is their special value? Tell me, why shall I meet? What is the business I have got to meet him? You are suggesting?
Reporter (2): No, I mean...
Prabhupāda: No, no, why shall I meet? Why you expect like that, I shall meet?
Reporter (3): He just wanted to know if you have ever met them. They are also...
Prabhupāda: Eka eka.... (Hindi) "We shall come automatically." So one day it was the turn of a rabbit. So he was a little late, so the lion, "Why you are late? My time is over." "Yes sir, another lion in the way, he wanted to eat me. So I said, 'No, you cannot eat me. I will be eaten by such and such Mr. Lion.' " So he became very..., "Who is that?" "Yes, come on. I will show you." So he got him near a well, and he said that "Here is the lion." So immediately, (growls) "Aww!" (laughter) And there was sound, "Aww!" Then he saw the photo, I mean, the reflection, and immediately jumped over.
- buddhir yasya balaṁ tasya
- nirbuddhes tu kuto balaṁ
- paśya siṁho madonmataḥ
śaśaḥ kena nipatitaḥ(?)
A śaśa, the rabbit, killed a big lion by intelligence. The Aesop's Fable was imitated from this Hitopadeśa.
Dr. Patel: Yes, all are translated more or less.
Prabhupāda: The Hitopadeśa was written by Viṣṇu-śarmā. (break)
Dr. Patel: ...Upaniṣad, in sixth or seventh chapter, he says that even bala is.... I mean buddhi is not stronger than bala. He described like that. (Hindi) Strong man is like that, they have described. That is what.... That is there in Chāndogya Upaniṣad. It was just sort of a story
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no quarrel, but we say that these are for the rascals. Yes. Aparā-vidyā is for the rascals.
Dr. Patel: No, no, even the greatest of the saints, namely, the guru of.... I mean, Śuka(?) Mahārāja, also he had the first aparā-vidyā. Then parā-vidyā.... Aparā-vidyā is the first step.
Prabhupāda: And so long you are in aparā-vidyā, you remain a rascal.
Dr. Patel: No, but we always have to put up our step on the aparā-vidyā. Then you put up your step on the parā-vidyā. You can't jump over it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No. There is no question of jumping, but things should be realized as it is. Aparā... This is aparā. This is parā. So this is inferior; this is superior. That you have to admit.
Dr. Patel: This was the question of Nārada Muni himself in the beginning.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And it is explained about aparā-vidyā, antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). Therefore rascal, alpa-medhasa. Alpa means no brain, no brain.
Dr. Patel: They have got those questions of bhakti other than of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Patel: Alpa, alpa...
Prabhupāda: This aparā-vidyā.... Parā-vidyā means Kṛṣṇa. Parā-vidyā means Kṛṣṇa. So one who.... Unless one comes to the point of Kṛṣṇa, he is in the aparā-vidyā. And aparā-vidyā is meant for the less intelligent class of men. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: They're risking living in Naraka-kuṇḍa.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember one boy was living there for about three months, and you got very angry and told him that there were already enough monkeys in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Do not try to jump over like a monkey.
Rādhāvallabha: (break) The scientists have found some more brass pottery. So now they say that man first started using brass around thirty-five hundred years ago. They've announced this to the world.
Prabhupāda: Now they're not using?
Rādhāvallabha: No, they say that thirty-five hundred years ago is when man first started using brass. They've announced this to the world.
Prabhupāda: What we have to take lesson from this, huh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're still using it now. Does that mean man is still...
Rāmeśvara: They are convinced that man used to live in caves, and just recently he has been civilized.
Prabhupāda: So what is the effect of civilization? When they used to live in cave, they were hunting animals and eating. So you are doing the same thing. What civilization?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Bad way, good way, man proposes, God disposes. You want something, bad or good.... Actually, everything is bad. This body or the fish's body or the dog's body, that is all material body. So everything is bad. But I prefer to get the body of a human being or a dog or a fish or a bird. That is my choice. So God gives you that body. Everywhere God's mercy is there, because whatever you want, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). In the material world, you have come to enjoy. You cannot enjoy. You are thinking.... Just like child. He's playing with something for sometime, again taking another thing, again taking another thing, childish. So similarly we want to enjoy this material world. Sometimes I am thinking it will be convenient if I get a man's body, it will be convenient if I get a tiger's body, it will be convenient if I get a fish's body. So God is supplying you: "All right, you take this body." So what is God's fault? He is very kind. You wanted to do something. Do it. Not only that, if he forgets that "I wanted the fish body, now how I have got it?" No, he forgets that he wanted it. So God reminds him that "You wanted this body; you have got this body." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). So God is very kind in all circumstances. Now we proposing to enjoy this material world under different situations, and God is helping us. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). You want to wander within this material world. That is your proposal. So, in order to enjoy this material world, you require different types of body. Just like they are trying to go to the moon planet. It requires a different body. So yānti deva-vratā devān: (BG 9.25) this life, you aspire of going to the moon planet; next life, automatically you will go there. Why you are trying unnecessarily to go to the moon planet by sputnik? You'll go there. You just always think of the moon and you'll go to the moon. It is simple process. And by this way, you cannot go. Now, exactly in the same way that you get the body of a fish and you very easily, whole day and night, for so many years, you jump over in the sea. So moon planet is one of the heavenly planets. There is process how to go to moon planet. In the Bhāgavata it is stated. Those who are karma-kāṇḍīya, very, discharging the Vedic ritualistic ceremony, karma-kāṇḍa, they can go to the moon planet or sun planet. There are millions and trillions of planets they can go. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ (BG 9.25). The same thing. Suppose if you want to go to India, you prepare yourself, take the visa, the permit, the passport and necessary money and permission, so many things. You go there. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they want to become gopīs. That is the tendency, sahajiyā.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Like transcendental hippie-life.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No responsibility.
Prabhupāda: Other relationship of Kṛṣṇa rejected, take, jump over the gopīs' relationship. This is the meaning. (break) ...this line? Is it not? So as many lines, that means so many years.
Hari-śauri: (break) ...cut inside the tree, there's circles, and for each circle that means one year. That's what they say, anyway.
Prabhupāda: Island separate?
Mahendra: That's an island, Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes. Santa Catalina island. It's a very big tourist resort. We were just discussing how it would be nice to send saṅkīrtana party there for book distribution.
Gopavṛndapāla: We already do that every weekend.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...problems. It seems there are so many social problems in the world today that by patchwork nothing can, er, can't hope to come of anything good.
Prabhupāda: No, generally. So there are ninety chapters. That means minimum fifteen volumes, and maybe more. We have presented Kṛṣṇa book, just a summary study, not explained. But when it will be explained, with each and every śloka, purport, then it will be not less than fifteen volumes. Tenth Chapter is the face of of the Lord. We have described the legs, hands, belly, that's all, and Tenth Chapter is the face, smiling face. Therefore we should not jump over the face all at once. It must go from the legs, gradually, and then face, then forehead, then hair. Eleventh, Twelfth, Twelfth Chapter, finished, the whole body of Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. So thank you very much.
Devotees: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We'd like to put.... We have got in some other copies, and we would like to put them on the altar tonight for sandhyā ārati. These two are your copies.
Prabhupāda: All right, take it.
Rāmeśvara: But those two are for Your Divine Grace. We have others to show the Deities.
Prabhupāda: All right. All right, do it.
Rāmeśvara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, how you are keeping your health?
Prabhupāda: No, that's not the fact. It is misunderstanding. We are actually struggling for achievement of the highest goal of life. Otherwise, why we are writing so many books? It is for the human beings. And they are being accepted. It is not for the cats and dog. This Bhāgavatam is not meant for the cats and dogs. So, vidyā bhāgavatāvadhi. In the beginning it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vedyaṁ vāstavam atra (SB 1.1.2). Atra śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ vāstava-vastu-vedyam, what is actual life. So we are struggling to give people what is actual life. Kṛṣṇa comes down to teach us what is actual life. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). When people become cats and dogs, dharmasya glāniḥ. Dharmasya glāniḥ means cats and dogs, because in the cats and dog society there is no question of dharma. They simply jump over and enjoy life. Eat, drink, be merry, enjoy eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. So if human life is also trained up in a polished way, the same principles, then where is the difference between cats and dogs? Dog is thinking, "I am this body, hound, greyhound," and barking, "gow, gow." Similarly, if we remain like that, in the bodily concept of life, that "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," then where is the difference between dog and ourself? The human life is meant for understanding that I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor American nor Indian. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is beginning of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. And what is Brahman? Then life begins. The cats and dogs, they cannot think that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna was thinking in the bodily concept of life, "My family, my brother," and so on, so on, so he declined to fight. So...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...their achievement, no more death? As soon as you ask this question, matte kara heṭ. Baḍo baḍo baḍo badora(?) baro baro pet laṅkā diṅgaya matte karo heṭ. "Big, big monkey, big, big, belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." What scientific advancement? Do you think there will be no more death? Matte kore heṭ: (?)"Yes, we are trying." Answer them, "What is your achievement?" All achievement will be, remain in your back and you'll have to die. So what you have done, insurance, that you'll enjoy this? You'll be kicked out of the scene at any moment. What you have done for this? What is the answer? Mattaḥ kore heṭ "Yes, we are trying." (laughter) Nonsense, you are trying. And we have to see this nonsense. We are not so fool. And if they say, "What you are doing?" "Yes, we are doing that. How to conquer over death." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti, mām eti (BG 4.9). That is we are trying. That is real scientific. And what is method? Very simple: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru mām evaiśyasi asaṁśayaḥ (BG 18.65). "Without any doubt, he comes to Me." This is science. Why shall I waste time? Svarūpa Dāmodara challenged one scientist in California that "If I give you the chemicals, can you manufacture life?" He said, "That I cannot say." What you have spoken all this nonsense? Mattaḥ kore heṭ. And when there is challenge, mattaḥ kore heṭ. Otherwise, baro baro bagara, baro baro phet, big, big monkey, big, big belly. And when the real question is there, mattaḥ kore het. Ceylon jumping, melancholy. Hanumān jumped over the ocean, so other monkeys, they also become very proud: "I am..., Hanumān is our leader, we can...," "Can you jump over Ceylon?" Mattaḥ het. (break) ...speak all these things, Indian villagers, they will immediately believe. One cobbler.... I think I narrated this story. Nārada Muni was going to Vaikuṇṭha. Did I say that?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being misused. They take Kṛṣṇa as debauch. They do not understand. Therefore the Kṛṣṇa's līlā with the gopīs, they are described in the Tenth Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to understand Kṛṣṇa, beginning with janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So that is the Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one is fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with this material world, as Śaṅkarācārya said, nārāyaṇaḥ para avyaktāt, avyaktāt anna sambhava. This material world is a production... (break) It has to be purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When it is nirmalam, then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam (SB 7.5.23). This process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is (indistinct), that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood.
Indian man: Going back to this sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Kṛṣṇa conscious life?
Prabhupāda: Art?
Indian man: Yes, like painting, or music, or literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes oneself to these things, they are full-time things, they take all your energy and time. And so...
Prabhupāda: Devotion means to engage your energy and time for Kṛṣṇa. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopādhi-vinir... tat-paratvena. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa sevanam (CC Madhya 19.170). So if you can serve Kṛṣṇa by your hand, by painting about Kṛṣṇa, that is service. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu, about Lord Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of pleasure, ānandamayo 'byāsāt. So these things are producing ānanda. If it is in connection with Kṛṣṇa, then it is service. (aside:) So, Pālikā, you can take these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it.
Prabhupāda: ...bora bora phet, lanka dinga ke matta kare het(?) It was translated by a Mr. Roe, a professor in the Presidency College, he translated "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." When the problems of life is read, then they are melancholy, all these big, big scientists. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Hanumān, one monkey, he jumped over the Ceylon. So other monkeys also, they were very much proud that a monkey jumped over the ocean. And as soon as he was challenged, "Can you jump over?" melancholy. Ceylon jumping melancholy. Big, big monkey, big, big belly. These are the translation by Mr. Roe, a professor of English in Presidency College. So what is the proposal now?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to discuss about the journal that we are proposing to have from the Institute.
Rūpānuga: So Ravīndra-svarūpa Prabhu is going to be the editor, you approved in Māyāpura. We were thinking if you could give us some idea for a title. Because we were thinking so far is that we would have a subtitle, like we have "Back to Godhead" then we have "the Magazine of the Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement." So we would have the subtitle, "Bhaktivedanta Institute" or "Journal of the Bhaktivedanta Institute," but maybe you would like to have a title of the journal. So we wanted to know if you had some hint.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can title, entitle, Sa-vijñāna.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sa-vijñāna?
Prabhupāda:
- mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ
- paṅguṁ laṅghayate girim
- yat-kṛpā tam ahaṁ vande
- śrī-gurum dīna-tāranam
Mūkaṁ karoti vācālam: "A dumb is a great orator." Mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ. Paṅguṁ laṅghayate girim: "The lame man, lame man is jumping over the mountain." Mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paṅguṁ laṅghayate girim. Yat-kṛpa: "By the mercy of guru it is possible." So let us cooperate and do this business. Higher authority will be pleased, and that is our success. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. If the higher authorities are pleased, then Kṛṣṇa is pleased. That is our success. What about that French professor who has written an elaborate review?
Hari-śauri: The one that mentions about Aurobindo...
Bhagavān: I sent you this summer.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: Those two...
Hari-śauri: Yes, Prabhupāda's just asking about him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vāco vegaṁ manasaḥ krodha-vegaṁ, pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt. Etān vegān yo viṣa... You are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam. First there is test: etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ (NOI 1). Then for him Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). He has got three dozen sevā-dāsī, and living in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. My Guru Mahārāja wanted to publish Govinda-līlāmṛta. He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said, "Yes you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rāsa-līlā. Immediately..."
Acyutānanda: Even in Kṛṣṇa book rāsa-līlā should not be told in public.
Prabhupāda: No, why? Kṛṣṇa book must be there, in the book must be there.
Acyutānanda: But in public...
Prabhupāda: But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Kṛṣṇa, then kṛṣṇa-līlā. If you have not understood Kṛṣṇa, then you'll think Kṛṣṇa's rāsa-līlā is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Kṛṣṇa understanding so easy? If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa how can you go to the Kṛṣṇa's confidential activities?
Acyutānanda: Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Liberated for going to hell.
Prabhupāda: Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all.
Devotee: And engage in practical service to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane āśā **. Has he taken order from Guru Mahārāja that "I am going to jump over Rādhā-kuṇḍa"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete, āra nā kariha **. Why should he desire like that?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There are some devotees who always want...
Prabhupāda: They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru-mukha-padma-vākya cittete kariyā aikya āra nā kariha mane **.
Acyutānanda: They also wear the Rādhā-kuṇḍa māṭi, tilaka.
Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but they should understand what is Rādhā-kuṇḍa and how to deal with Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī showed how to live in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau. He was circumambulating Rādhā-kuṇḍa, falling down, making a mark. That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa vāsī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ. Not only counted holy names, but offering obeisances so many hundred times in... That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa. He, so much vairāgya he showed. He can take bath in the Rādhā-kuṇḍa. First of all, do this like Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna-natibhiḥ kālāvasānī-kṛtau nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau cātyanta-dīnau ca yau **.
Prabhupāda: You can find him, that is not difficult, but what is his mentality. Why he has gone to Rādhā-kuṇḍa if he was teaching here? You cannot rely upon him. When he'll go (indistinct). Rādhā-kuṇḍa, Rādhārāṇī's place, if anyone thinks that it is very easy to remain in Rādhā-kuṇḍa, the topmost place. Rūpa Gosvāmī has spoken—he must speak about Rādhā-kuṇḍa. But what he has spoken about other things?
- atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca
- prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ
- jana-saṅgaś ca laulyaṁ ca
- ṣaḍbhir bhaktir vinaśyati
- (NOI 2)
So Rādhā-kuṇḍa, who will live Rādhā-kuṇḍa? One is topmost devotee, and if he mixes with third-class devotee, how he is fit for living in Rādhā-kuṇḍa? There is no difference between Rādhā-kuṇḍa and Rādhārāṇī. So how you can jump over Rādhārāṇī? Rādhā-kuṇḍa and Rādhārāṇī nondifferent. How you can enjoy Rādhā-kuṇḍa by swimming? You cannot touch with your feet even Rādhā-kuṇḍa. You can take little water and keep it on the head. That is respectful to Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Of course, things are going on like that, but strictly speaking, Rādhā-kuṇḍa should be respected as Rādhārāṇī herself. That is Rādhā-kuṇḍa consciousness. Highest Rādhā-kuṇḍa consciousness. And if you want to live in Rādhā-kuṇḍa, then why he has taken four thousand rupees from Girirāja?
Prabhupāda: In Hong Kong. Yes. In Hong Kong you won't find street dogs. They'll eat them. So in India also there are dog-eaters. In Assam you'll find. They make kukura-piṭhā. Kukura-piṭhā means that first of all the dog is given to eat some rice preparation with gur (Indian brown sugar). And pushing, pushing. When he dies, then it is roasted. Then that is very good food. (laughter) Kukura-piṭhā. The Assamese, they eat. There are different nations. Śva-paca, this word is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca (BG 5.18). This śva-pāke means this caṇḍāla. One who eats a dog. Śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. So everyone can be raised to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no difficulty. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement. So from early in the morning He is teaching. Udilo aruṇa pūraba-bhāge dwija-maṇi gorā amani jāge. He was not lazy. He was very busy. From early in the morning. So if we at least pretend to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we cannot sleep. We must rise early in the morning. If you want to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu, there is no question of sleeping in the morning. One must get up at least one and a half hours before the sunrise. That is maṅgala-ārati. Maṅgala-ārati means to get up early in the morning, take your bath, and be prepared for the maṅgala-ārati. Then begin your chanting, prayer. This is activity. It is not... Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not a lazy life. It is not lazy life. All Kṛṣṇa conscious, Rāma conscious, they are very busy. To speak, even the Hanumān, Jambavān, Aṅgada, they are monkeys, still how they were busy, from the history we find, to serve Kṛṣṇa, Rāmacandra. Hare Kṛṣṇa. I was questioned by some gentleman sometimes in 1940. He charged that the Vaiṣṇava, "This Vaiṣṇava means a lazy fellow." He said like that. (laughs) So I said, "You have never seen a Vaiṣṇava." I told him, "You have never seen a Vaiṣṇava." "No, I have seen these Vaiṣṇavas. They do not do anything and taking mālā and pretending to be very highly elevated and sleep and snore." That's... You have seen... "But you have not seen. You might have seen these pseudo-Vaiṣṇavas, but real Vaiṣṇava you have not seen." "What is that real Vaiṣṇava?" And I said that in India there were two big wars. One war was the Rāma-Rāvaṇa, and another war Kurukṣetra. So in these two wars, the hero is Vaiṣṇava. One is Hanumān and another is Arjuna. Have you seen them? Have you heard about them? Are they lazy fellows? Hanumān is Vaiṣṇava. He could raise one mountain and jump over the sea and set fire in the very beautiful state of Rāvaṇa. This is Vaiṣṇava. This is Vaiṣṇava. And Arjuna, he was in the beginning hesitating that "My cousin-brothers, the other side..." (end)
Prabhupāda: No, no. Kṛṣṇa did not write, but Kṛṣṇa spoke. If you speak and if I note down and write, what is the difference? Because you did not see, therefore it is not good? He spoke and I note down, er, you note down. Then it is as good. Kṛṣṇa was speaking, and Sañjaya was noting, and that was written by Vyāsadeva in the Mahābhārata. So what is the difference?
Indian man (4): That is one disclosure. That is one only Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: That is sufficient. First of all, you understand few lines of Bhagavad-gītā; then jump over other. About this only, one line, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13), if you simply understand this one line, your life will be successful.
Indian man (3): Kindly explain this line.
Prabhupāda: This line, it is clear, that you have to change this body. Have you got any objection to take it?
Indian man (4): No.
Prabhupāda: Then why you are not serious, "What kind of body I am going to get?" Here is a body, tree. If you are going to accept a body like this, just how miserable it will be. Why you are not afraid? Just like if you want to go from here, Chandigarh, to Delhi, you have to arrange so many things. So what we are doing, that we have to change this body? And there are 8,400,000 different types of bodies. Which body I am going to get? Why we are not serious? We are spoiling our life.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly.
Trivikrama: Everyone in a body means...
Prabhupāda: Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. A student should always remain to be chastised by guru. That is his right position. And as soon as he thinks that he has become more than his guru, then he'll be finished, his career.
Trivikrama: Jumping over the head.
Prabhupāda: Just like our Nitāi. (chuckles) This is the difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu remained-guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana: "My Guru Mahārāja has chastised Me because I am fool number one." Caitanya Mahāprabhu is fool? But He's showing the example that you should always remain...
Dr. Patel: The avatāras shall behave like common men. Otherwise they will not be... All avatāras behave like common men.
Prabhupāda: Our Guru Mahārāja, so strict... A little discrepancy, he would chastise like anything. But we liked it very much.
Indian (3): Guru's chastise is the mercy.
Prabhupāda: Śiṣyaṁ ca putraṁ ca tāḍayen na tu lālayet. That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. "The sons and disciples should always be chastised. Never pat them."
Dr. Patel: Tāḍayet may be returned.
Prabhupāda: Relation is there. Relation is there. Otherwise, how can I address him? Relation is there. So this form Hare, means Hara, is the potency of Hari. (break) Just like you are a gṛhastha. You have got your wife, you have got your maidservant. The maidservant is doing something, wife is doing something, but you have many potencies. The managing director is there, but he has got many assistants. Similarly, the Supreme Person has got multi-assistants, potencies. So they are all accepted as Hara, Hari's potencies. So we have to approach Hari through the potency: "O Hare. O the potency of the Lord. O Lord, be merciful." We cannot jump over the Lord without going through the potency. So those who are impersonalists, they cannot understand. But those who are intelligent, they can understand that God is person, He has got multi-potencies, and through the potencies He's working so nicely. This is Vedic injunction. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport).
- na tasya kāryaṁ kāraṇaṁ ca vidyate
- na tat samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate
- parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate
- svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca
God has nothing to do personally. As we see a very big rich man, he hasn't got to do anything personally, but he has got so many assistants. They're doing everything. Similarly, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate. But when the things are done, svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā. The knowledge is so perfect and things are done so nicely that it is automatically being done. And the rascals who cannot see behind there is God, they simply see this nature: "The nature is working automatically." It is not the fact. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛti suyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). There is adhyakṣana. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro. Even the sun planet, such big illuminative, powerful, it is also rotating by the order of God. So similarly, we are addressing the potencies of the Lord. We cannot jump over God, because potencies are so important. They are actually helping hand to God. So if they are pleased, then God will be pleased automatically.
Prabhupāda: (clears throat) So, how business is going there?
Haṁsadūta: Well, there's no money, so not much can be done. The last two days there was no prasādam distribution in the evening, and so the last two days I was there, nobody came. The problem is that since Your Divine Grace left there, the same people would be cooking, these sweeper people. And now they don't want to cook anymore because they work all day, and they say, "We can't work all around the clock, twenty-four hours." So they stopped cooking. And together with no money... So the whole thing has just come to a stalemate. So now another problem is that the saṅkīrtana party which we sent out is also not... It came back yesterday, also not going on properly. I know this causes Your Divine Grace anxiety, but I just think I should speak frankly about how I feel about the situation. I think Mahāṁsa is a very nice devotee, but he does everything himself. He's always jumping over everything, and before it can be discussed, he's already done it. Just like he flew here. He flew here, and it costs a lot of money to fly from Hyderabad and back. It costs, I think, about five hundred rupees. And there's no need for doing things in that way. So I don't know exactly how to work with Mahāṁsa. It's not that I fight with him. I just don't know how to work out things so that it comes out in a practical way.
Prabhupāda: What is the use of investing money there? I have already given fifty thousand.
Prabhupāda: No, they don't care for. They say, "Bhagavad-gītā is not for us."
Girirāja: They say that?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the bābājīs say. They are for Bhāgavata rasa līlā. "Bhagavad-gītā is for third class or lower class who does not..." They are paramahaṁsas... They are not... Immediately jump over rasa-līlā.
Girirāja: They discriminate this Kṛṣṇa from that Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The Vallabha-sampradāya, they say that "Before Kṛṣṇa was contaminated, in His childhood, we worship that Kṛṣṇa."
Girirāja: Who said that?
Hari-śauri: Vallabha-sampradāya.
Prabhupāda: "Kṛṣṇa, when He was young, grown-up, He became contaminated by the gopīs." Therefore they do not touch that Kṛṣṇa. When He was below that age, Bal Kṛṣṇa, He is innocent; He has no desire. They think this is contaminated Kṛṣṇa, and Bal Kṛṣṇa is uncontaminated.
Hari-śauri: Then they don't accept Kṛṣṇa as being the supreme enjoyer.
Girirāja: I met someone who said that.
Girirāja: That's true.
Prabhupāda: If I am in power, give the dog a bad name and hang it. Who is going to check me? The same story, the lion and the lamb? No? A lion was drinking water this side and one lamb was drinking water that side. So the lion saw it is very nice food. So he wanted to kill with some plea, "Oh, you are making my water muddy!" "Sir, I am here so far. How I can make your water muddy?" (laughs) In this way he picked up some quarrel and jumped over. So he's lion and he's a lamb. So it is no difficult for the lion to kill a lamb under some plea. "Might is right." There has been so much propaganda and CIA, this Communist propaganda, this Blitz propaganda. In Bengal there was heavy propaganda against our...
Girirāja: Bhavānanda.
Prabhupāda: Bhavānanda. Nothing was done.
Girirāja: Yes. It's true.
Prabhupāda: And Lalitā says that "I know Swamiji is very exalted. I am simply afraid... He has so many American disciples. If some of them do something wrong, that will be very bad thing for him." Lalitā was telling me. What can I do? Come anyone. Who is bad, who is good I do not know. But I know even bad man comes, he becomes a good man. That I know. So who will come? How can I discriminate who is bad or who is good?
Girirāja: Lord Caitanya also welcomed everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the nine devotional process and how, by each process, one becomes perfect, just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja, simply hearing, and Śukadeva Gosvāmī, simply chanting, reciting Bhāgavatam. So both of them got salvation. Lakṣmī, she is simply pāda-sevanam, giving massage to the lotus feet of the Lord. Arjuna simply made friendship with Kṛṣṇa. Hanuman simply worked as a hard servant. He doesn't know what He is... "Lord Rāmacandra wants it." Then it is done. Jump over. He does not know any philosophy. He has got bodily strength, so whatever Rāmacandra says, he'll do. He was asked to bring that medicine for Lakṣmaṇa. He did not know where to find it. "Take this whole mountain." (laughter) He was not intelligent. "Fight! We have to fight with Rāvaṇa. Then block his whole city by throwing stones and trees and dirt." Everything became blocked. They could not move. So in one side he is born of animal life, he had no higher intelligence, but his staunch desire, that "I shall serve Lord Rāmacandra..." By that... Only this desire made him perfect. Dāsyam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23), so smaraṇam. Prahlāda Mahārāja, five years old boy, how he could protest against such a powerful demon father? He was simply thinking of Kṛṣṇa, "All right, my father is punishing me. What can I do?" Simply absorbed, smaraṇam.
Rāmeśvara: One thing they will like to see in this movie is many different temples, beautiful temples from South India, and also Vaiṣṇava festivals.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: Like Ratha-yatra in Jagannātha Purī.
Prabhupāda: And the stories also, that how by executing one of the items a devotee became perfect.
Gargamuni: Gate's locked?
Hari-śauri: So that ideal should be the persons who are living in our āśramas.
Rāmeśvara: No, they're in there.(?)
Gargamuni: That's our man. He jumped over the fence to get the gate open open.
Rāmeśvara: But now, suppose there is some businessman, and he knows that everybody is wanting this sex. So he is making movie or writing a book describing these things.
Prabhupāda: These things were formerly restricted-censor board.
Rāmeśvara: So there must be censorship...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: ...in a Kṛṣṇa conscious...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Rāmeśvara: ...government.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Rāmeśvara: Censorship of television, radio, all media.
Guest (2): One aspect. One aspect we have taken, that supreme, the message, essence...
Prabhupāda: No, no... It is... Kṛṣṇa-līlā is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, why don't you begin from the first chapter of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam? Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Just show how Kṛṣṇa is supreme, how everything is coming, coming from Him. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāt (SB 1.1.1). These things explain by picture. That will be real education. Why you jump over on the Tenth Canto immediately? That is my point.
Guest (1): No, we understand. We are depicting the...
Prabhupāda: Begin.
Indian man: ...aspect, supreme superman.
Prabhupāda: Just like one learns from ABCD, not jumping over M.A. class. That is my point. Teach people from the ABCD. So this is the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). What Kṛṣṇa? He is the original. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Show that by film, how He is sarvasya prabhavo. That will be...
Guest (1): So He is always supreme power.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Not... You are going to produce some film. Begin from the first chapter of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Why you jump over the Tenth Canto? That is kept very confidential. Unless one understands... By understanding nine cantos of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he has no entrance. Just like you cannot enter into the law college unless you are graduate. So Śukadeva Gosvāmī has arranged in such a way that one should understand what is Kṛṣṇa by reading these nine cantos. Then he can enter into the Kṛṣṇa's līlā and Kṛṣṇa's birth. What is the purpose? He could have given Kṛṣṇa... Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is for Kṛṣṇa. So we have named this, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-katha. So first Kṛṣṇa-katha is: Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. Present Bhagavad-gītā. Then one accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality... Sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). When he comes to that stage, then Bhāgavata begins. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2). Paramo nirmatsarāṇām. Unless one is matsara... "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is doing that? Why I cannot do it?" The sahajiyā bābājīs, they do that. That is matsarata, that "Kṛṣṇa can do? I can also do." So he simply imitates Kṛṣṇa's rasa-līlā. And Kṛṣṇa can raise the Govardhana Hill—that is not possible. That is... What is called? Mythology. What he cannot do, he takes as mythology. And what he can easily imitate and go to hell, that is very good.
Guest (2): This very assertion, to our eyes, that... Our (indistinct) tells about Kṛṣṇa. So we can't take it otherwise.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot take, but the public will take like that.
Prabhupāda: So you accept or not accept, you have to follow the rules of material nature.
Young man (3): I admit I can't...
Prabhupāda: Then you are under the rules of material nature. You have to admit.
Young man (3): Ah, but in spiritual life...
Prabhupāda: Why do you jump over spiritual life? First of all try to understand your material nature, what you are at the present moment, that you are on the rules of material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). That you cannot avoid. So what is the use of making your own rules?
Young man (3): Ah, but you're not understanding the rules of nature.
Prabhupāda: No, that understanding... First of all you have to understand that you are under the rules of material nature, and you accept or not accept, you'll be forced by nature.
Young man (3): Ah, this is understood.
Prabhupāda: That understanding... Then it will be all right. And what is the use of your own rules? If you are forced to accept the rules of material nature, then what is the use of foolish rules? You have to accept. When material nature rules, you must die. You cannot avoid it. You must die. You must change body. You must be. So what is the use of your rules? You can manufacture as a madman. You are completely forced to accept the material nature.
Prabhupāda: More than. Prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa mattaḥ. Mattaḥ means mad, drunkard, and pramattaḥ means more than mad. So generally people, they have become mad after sense enjoyment. Everyone is busy for sense enjoyment. This is material life. And when they are fed up, no more available, so they become tyāgī-frustration that "Grapes are sour." The jackal jumped over to get the grapes, but when he could not obtain it, then he rejects, "Ah, what is use of the grapes? It is sour." So karmīs, they are pramattaḥ, mad after enjoying, and jñānīs, being fed up, they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "The world is useless." So this is going on. The karmīs, they want to enjoy this material world, and the jñānīs, they are little advanced. They are... They are fed up, rather. They want to enjoy by becoming one with the Supreme. So there is want. The karmīs want to enjoy this world, and the jñānīs want also. That is demand, mukti. Mukti means to become one with the Supreme Brahman. And the yogis, they want siddhi, aṣṭa-siddhi, aṇimā, laghimā, prāpti, īśitā... They also want. Therefore our Vaiṣṇava poet, Kavirāja Gosvāmī, he says, bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī sakali aśānta: "Those who are after something—either enjoyment of this material world or enjoyment of spiritually becoming one or to have some siddhis—they want something, so they cannot be happy." Because there is demand, "I want this." Maybe I want better thing than you, but I want. I am in need. So therefore those who are in need, they cannot be happy. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī sakali aśānta, kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma (CC Madhya 19.149). Kṛṣṇa-bhakta doesn't want anything. Ataeva śānta. So he is... He is satisfied. Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: (CC Madhya 22.42) "I don't want. I am fully satisfied." Dhruva Mahārāja, he went to the forest, underwent very severe austerity, and when Lord Viṣṇu appeared before him—"Take benediction, whatever you like"—he said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: "I have no more demand. I am fully satisfied." So this is the teaching. If we want to be fully satisfied, without any demand for sense gratification, then we become happy, and that is available in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye. We don't want. People want money and many followers, nice wife, but Caitanya Mahāprabhu refuses.
Prabhupāda: Slow and sure.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But let us see. When it is so slow, it's not sure yet. If you want, you could take a little rest before your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You didn't get much rest outside.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. (break) I think they have suffered, regularly living with rats.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Calcutta and Delhi.
Prabhupāda: Poor quarter. Still they are happy. The rats are jumping over your body.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sounds like Hare Kṛṣṇa Land, Juhu.
Prabhupāda: Yes, with one palace(?).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were telling me that there was one man who was living in a house. The roof was coming down, and it was raining, and he wouldn't leave. Some worker.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. It is a different type of civilization, to become sanctified and Kṛṣṇa conscious. Other things are not very important. If it is possible to rectify him, don't bother about this. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Increase this qualification.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We find that to increase fasting on Ekādaśī day makes that new (indistinct) come like anything.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
| Page Title: | Jump over (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 09 of Aug, 2013 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=65, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 65 |