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Intoxication (Conv. 1967 - 1974)

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Conversations and Morning Walks

1967 Conversations and Morning Walks

Discourse on Lord Caitanya Play Between Srila Prabhupada and Hayagriva -- April 5-6, 1967, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: These things should be ascertained(?). Then, it is mentioned there, exhibit illicit sex, slaughterhouse, intoxication, gambling. Then the third scene is very nice. Rāsa dance.

Hayagrīva: Uh... Just before this... I'm not going to make this I don't believe either eastern or western, but I think this can apply for the whole world in the sense that the names may be Indian names, but I think the exhibition of the assembly of Kali and his consort sin and the exhibition of illicit sex and slaughterhouse, this can all be, it can be from western type prototype.

Prabhupāda: That may be. No, why should you... It may be sometimes misunderstood that western people are only under the influence of Kali. Because the world is under the influence of Kali. Not that in your country only this intoxication, illicit sex. No, everywhere it is.

Discourse on Lord Caitanya Play Between Srila Prabhupada and Hayagriva -- April 5-6, 1967, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: That may be. No, why should you... It may be sometimes misunderstood that western people are only under the influence of Kali. Because the world is under the influence of Kali. Not that in your country only this intoxication, illicit sex. No, everywhere it is.

Hayagrīva: I realize that.

Prabhupāda: More or less. More or less.

Hayagrīva: Not only in that scene. My point is that I don't want to make this an Indian play.

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Interview -- February 1, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So our program is to start several..., as many branches as possible to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And it is very easy. We simply invite persons to come and chant with us. It doesn't matter what he is, what is his language, what is his religion. We don't take into account all these things. And this Hare Kṛṣṇa is so easy to utter, that any man can utter. That we have experienced. Any part of the world, we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they can very easily imitate and chant. Even child, they also. So by chanting, he gradually becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. His heart becomes cleansed and he can understand what is science of Kṛṣṇa, what is science of God. Then he automatically offers himself for initiation. Then we initiate him and guide him in different ways. But our students are strictly forbidden to have illicit sex life or meat-eating or intoxication or gambling. These four things are strictly forbidden for our students. And they take it seriously.

Interview -- March 9, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: That's all. We don't kill animals, don't kill birds, no. But we make very nice preparations. Everyone likes. So this is one of the restriction, that you cannot take anything which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the second restriction. And the third restriction is no intoxication—no smoking, no drinking, even no tea taking, no coffee taking, nothing: These American boys they are accustomed to all these habits very naturally, but they have given up. They don't take. In our temple there is no tea-taking, no coffee-taking, no cigarette smoking, nothing of the sort, you see. This is the third restriction. And the fourth restriction is that you cannot take part in gambling or some unnecessary sporting because you have to utilize your time. Your time is very short. If you miss this opportunity of human form of life... Because we do not know when death is coming. It is not that because I am old, I am nearing death, and you are young, you are not nearing death. Who knows that you may die before me?

Interview -- March 9, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: So the principle is that because this human form of life is so important to perfect oneself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he should not waste even a minute. You see? So therefore we don't allow unnecessary sporting. You see? This is simply waste of time. So no illicit sex life, no meat-eating or animal food, no intoxication, no gambling. So every student has to follow these four prin... Otherwise I don't initiate. I don't take cheap students, that "You can do whatever you like, and you pay me some money. I give you some mantra, and you become God." I don't say like that. I don't bluff like that. I have not come to earn money from your country, but I have come to your country to give you something sublime, not to take you, not to take from you, not to exploit you, but to give you something sublime. You see? So that is the third stage, initiation. And then, if you are situated in the third stage nicely—that means if you follow the regulative principles under my direction—then the fourth stage automatically comes.

Radio Interview -- March 12, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: No. No meat, no onion, no garlic, no intoxication, no liquor, we don't smoke even, we don't take tea, coffee. We simply take what is absolutely necessary for keeping the body fit to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We don't indulge in luxury..., or for the satisfaction of the tongue.

Interviewer: All right. Caller, you're on the air with the Swami on KGO.

Caller: Yes, Swamiji, I'd like to know where in India was your native place.

Interviewer: Where in India did you come from originally?

Prabhupāda: Oh, I was born in Calcutta. But after my acceptance of this renounced order of life, I am inhabitant of Vṛndāvana.

Radio Interview -- March 12, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Yes, we are completely different from the hippies, because hippies they are addicted to sex and intoxication, and these things are completely forbidden in our temple.

Interviewer: You do perform wedding ceremonies?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Interviewer: What is your wedding ceremony like?

Prabhupāda: The same chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Interviewer: Is it considered a legal wedding ceremony in this country?

Interview -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Prabhupāda: Our process is to accept everything which conduces to develop Kṛṣṇa's love. So those methods are given by experienced ācāryas, that "You just follow." Just like when a child tries to walk, the mother gives some direction or some help in a wooden plank, that "You try to move in this way. You will learn how to walk," similarly, there are certain principles given by experienced ācāryas. If we follow those principles, then we can work or we can go to the perfection of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not the method that is important. The real important is how to develop your love of Kṛṣṇa. If somebody develops love of Kṛṣṇa, or God, without those methods, there is no objection. We are not limited by the methods or ritualistic methods. But there are certain ritualistic method, which, if one follows, then he can quickly learn the art of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like we restrict our students in four principles: illicit sex life and intoxication, gambling, and meat-eating. So it is not that a gambler or a meat-eater or a man addicted to illicit sex life, he cannot love Kṛṣṇa. It is not that. But that is very rare case. If he follows these principles, then it will be easier for him. Because Kṛṣṇa, or God is pure, so so long one is impure in his habits, it is not possible for him. So these are the purificatory processes.

Room Conversation about Marriage -- September 24, 1968, Seattle:

Madhudviṣa: She was in correspondence with her brother, and her brother was had some problems with drugs, taking intoxicants, drugs, and she wanted him to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and she was talking about sending him money to have him come to Seattle. So that made us think that she might have gone to San Francisco to try to bring her brother to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But she...

Prabhupāda: If that is her idea, that's good, but why did not tell us? That "I am going to my brother's." Nobody would have forbidden her. She has taken some money?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two hundred... How much was it?

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Radio Interview -- February 12, 1969, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Certainly. That is the first condition to accept one as my disciple, because there are some restriction. I don't allow illicit sex life. I don't allow intoxication. I don't allow meat-eating and gambling. So I build up their character. So naturally my followers are very restricted. (chuckles)

Interviewer: Well, now, I'd like to go over in some greater detail what the disciples may and may not do. I think that's where... I just wanted to get some of the factual background before we went into that. Now, your, the sexual abstinence does not include marriage, I gather.

Prabhupāda: No. Marriage allowed.

Interviewer: Marriage is allowed.

Radio Interview -- February 12, 1969, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, no, we don't... There is no question, because all kinds of intoxication prohibited. We don't allow even smoking and tea-drinking, coffee-taking. You see? Any kind of intoxication we don't allow.

Interviewer: In other words, I guess it would be correct to say that this is in the Western sense of the word, a religious order.

Prabhupāda: It is not religious order. It is cultural because one cannot understand higher philosophical things if he is intoxicated.

Radio Interview -- February 12, 1969, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: We don't mention any particular thing. Generally we say "No intoxication."

Interviewer: But that's a negative. I'm talking now about... What about the positive aspects of it? Because I have known some very wicked people who never indulged in intoxicants.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes...

Interviewer: I doubt if that is your dividing line.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Simply becoming non-intoxicated does not mean that he is a very good man. That I admit.

Conversation Before Lecture -- April 29, 1969, Brandeis University, Boston:

Prabhupāda: We cannot say, just like, in some hotels, that "Such and such persons are not admitted." No. We cannot. We admit everyone. Our mission is to elevate persons from down state of life to the highest state of life. So everyone is in down state. Lord Jesus Christ also said that "You do not hate the sinners, but hate sin." Is not that, Lord Jesus Christ said? So hippies may be sinners. We raise them to the pious life. But we say, "Don't do this. Don't do this sinful act. Don't take intoxication. Don't do this. Don't do this." We hate sin, not the sinners. Actually. If we hate sinners, then where is the possibility of preaching?

Miss Rose: If the hippies would come, come, come...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: I shall cross the road. I shall go everywhere." So if he is allowed to do that, that means he is simply inviting dangers. And if he remains under the protection of the parents, he is always safe. So this living entity's declaring independence means he is insane, different kinds of insanity. He cannot be independent. Let him think very deeply that it cannot be independent. He is thinking independent of God, but he is dependent on his sense pleasure. That's all. And some intoxication, a voluntarily accept dependence of something māyā. That's all. Who is independent. Is there anyone independent? Nobody is independent. To think of independence is māyā. Best thing is that "I am dependent, and let me remain dependent in properly. Then I am protected." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So your question is answered? Material consciousness means thinking falsely independent.

Room Conversation -- May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: Well, when one is a professional, there may be something wrong. That doesn't matter. But you try to discharge your duties, rightly, whatever you are prescribed to do. Then everything will come to the right point. Your only business is to follow the four principles of regulative life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa sixteen rounds. So there may be sometimes mistake. That will be corrected automatically. Because we are coming from a different platform, so it may be. And that is also said in the Bha... Api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ: (BG 9.30) "If one is found doing mistake or doing something wrong, but because he is sticking to this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is sādhu." Sādhu means a holy man. He is holy. He is not doing any wrong consciously. But due to habit... Suppose just like most of you were, in your former life, you were smoking or taking intoxication. But by some influence, if you sometimes take to it, yes, if you are conscious, "Oh, I have done wrong," but that is excused if you have done unconscious. But if you think that "Now I am Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 11, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: So if you have to take shelter of LSD then you take, I mean to say, help from the matters, so that is... How you can... How you are free from matter?

Allen Ginsberg: Well, the subjective experience is, while in the state of intoxication of LSD, also realizing that LSD is a material pill, and that it does not really matter.

Prabhupāda: So that is risky. That is risky.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. Now so, if LSD is a material attachment, which it is I think, then is not the sound, śabda, also a material attachment?

Prabhupāda: No, śabda is spiritual. Originally just like in Bible there is, "Let there be creation." This sound, this spiritual sound. Creation. Creation was not there. The sound produced the creation. Therefore, sound is originally spiritual and through the sound; sound—from sound, sky develops; from sky, air develop; from air, fire develop; fire, water develop; from water, land develop.

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 13, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, in his previous life, he elevated himself to the loving stage of Kṛṣṇa. Not exactly, just previous, bhāva. It is called bhāva, ecstasy. But some way or other, he could not finish, so according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, he was given birth to a nice brāhmaṇa family. (aside:) You can call that Bengali lady. She can hear. So very rich. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41), in that way. Rich family, at the same time, brāhmaṇa family. But richness, generally, sometimes glide down to wine, women, and intoxication. So by bad company he became woman-hunter, prostitute-hunter. So he was too much addicted to one woman, Cintāmaṇi. So his father died, and he was... He did not marry. In your country it is called girlfriend, and in our country it is called prostitute. So he was that about that prostitute, Cintāmaṇi. So he was performing the rituals, but he was thinking of his girlfriend, that Cintāmaṇi, "When I shall go there?" Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura?

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- November 7, 1970, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So there was no money with me and in an awkward position... My philosophy is completely different. I was to ask them to cease from four kinds of sinful activities, and they are habituated to these things. Illicit sex, and drinking, wine and intoxication and gambling—these are their daily affairs. So I was thinking, "I have to stop this. Who will hear me?" But Kṛṣṇa... Everything became...

Guest (1): May I ask one thing. How you chose this America to be your first...?

Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja ordered me that "You go and preach this cult amongst the English speaking public and specially in the western countries." So first of all I thought of London, where is London, but I had no money. So I got the opportunity for going U.S.A. free on the, on a trade ship by the Scindia Steam Navigation. They gave me their first-class cabinet, the proprietor's cabinet.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: Prohibitive. No illicit sex life, no meat-eating, meat or fish or eggs, no, and no gambling, and no intoxication, including cigarette, tea, coffee. These also we take as intoxicants. So these four principle one has to obey, and let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. And by this process only, you'll find, how these boys and girls are improving quickly. Process is very simple. Besides that, we have got books, volumes of books, just like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā. I have given them. Throughout all these years I have written so many books. And they have got ample stock for reading, the whole life. We have got four hundred pages', big, big books, about one dozen books: Kṛṣṇa in two parts, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in six parts, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, one part, Nectar of Devotion, one part.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: That preliminary changes... Just like we prohibit, "Don't take intoxicants."

Guest: To change... Not to change culture. Intoxication is not primarily (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So if he becomes, if he takes to these processes, then automatically...

Guest: Transformation(indistinct) will take place automatically.

Prabhupāda: ...his whole life is changed. Yes. Because these four things—illicit sex life, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling—they are very great impediments for social improvement.

Guest: And that will automatically make his life simpler because a person who is not indulging in illicit sex life or intoxication and other things has to live a comparatively simpler life.

Television Interview -- July 29, 1971, Gainesville:

Prabhupāda: No. They are prohibited from illicit sex life. They are prohibited to intoxication. They do not smoke even, what to speak of other intoxications. And they are prohibited not to indulge in gambling. So if they can observe these four rules and regulations, they become perfect men. Simply.

Interviewer: Or women I presume.

Prabhupāda: Woman or man. Anyone.

Interviewer: Men or women. There is place for women in the religion too isn't...?

Prabhupāda: Woman and man have got the same right. Just like we are getting married boys and girls. They're following the same principles. The same principles. So these are the four pillars of perfect life. And if we indulge in these things, illicit sex life, meat-eating, and intoxication, and gambling, then they become the four pillars of sinful life. And If we take them away, then they become, the prohibited portion becomes the pillars of perfect life.

Room Conversation -- July 18, 1971, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: There is no loss. This was, I was explaining. Because this, it is spiritual science. Anything spiritual, that is eternal. It is never, I mean to say, lost, never destroyed. So whatever they have learned, that is basic for other learning. Suppose they cannot finish the total process, program, then they will get a chance, another chance to begin in the human form. So practically there is no loss. As ordinary beings, whatever they are creating in this life, after giving up this body everything is lost. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even it is not completed, whatever they have learned, that will go with them, because it is spiritual, it will not be destroyed. But they're being trained up to finish the course and program within this life, not to wait for the next life. That is our goal. They have got the regulative principles that you must follow this, that no illicit sex life, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling, and chanting in a prescribed method Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, taking only Kṛṣṇa prasādam, and be twenty-four hours... You'll find, whenever you'll come to our temple, you'll find they're busy with something. Similarly, we are simply busy with Kṛṣṇa business. We try to remember Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours. That is our method.

Interview -- July 29, 1971, Gainesville:

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore prohibited for illicit sex life. Therefore prohibited to intoxication. They do not smoke even, what to speak of other intoxication. And therefore prohibited not to indulge in gambling. So if they can observe these four rules and regulations, they will become perfect men. Simple.

Interviewer: Or women, I presume.

Prabhupāda: Oh, men or women.

Interviewer: Men or women?

Prabhupāda: Anyone.

Interviewer: There is place for women in the religion too, isn't there?

Prabhupāda: No, man and woman has got, have got the same right. Just like we are getting married boys and girls. They are following the same principles, the same principles. So these are the four pillars of perfect life. If we indulge in these things—illicit sex life, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling—then they become the four pillars of sinful life. And if we take them away, then they become, the prohibitive portion, becomes the pillars of perfect life.

Temple Press Conference -- August 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: Of course, to search out guru is very nice. But if you want a cheap guru or if you want to be cheated, then there will be many cheater gurus. But if you are sincere, then you'll have sincere guru. People want to be cheated because they want everything very cheap. But just like we are asking people no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. So people think it is very difficult, it is botheration. And if somebody says, "No, you do. Whatever nonsense you like do. You simply take my mantra," they will like it. So the thing is that they want to be cheated; therefore cheaters come. They don't want to undergo some austerity. Human life is meant for austerity. But they are not prepared to undergo austerity. Suppose some cheaters come. They say, "Oh, no austerity. Whatever you like you do. You simply pay me and I'll give you some particular mantra, and you become God within six months." (Laughter) And that is going on. So you want to be, if people want to be cheated like that, the cheaters will come.

Temple Press Conference -- August 5, 1971, London:

Woman Interviewer: And what else would one have to give up for...

Prabhupāda: One has to give up all kinds of intoxicants.

Woman Interviewer: Is that drugs and spirits?

Prabhupāda: Any kind of drug that intoxicates.

Śyāmasundara: Even tea and...

Prabhupāda: Even tea, cigarette. They are also intoxicants.

Woman Interviewer: So that includes alcohol, marijuana, tea. Anything else?

Prabhupāda: Yes. One has to give up animal food. All kinds of animal food. Meat, eggs, fish, like that. And one has to give up gambling.

Room Conversation -- August 14, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: No. It is not difficult. It is difficult for the sinners. Those who are not sinners, it is not difficult. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said:

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
te dvanda-moha-nirmuktā
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
(BG 7.28)

One can chant the holy name of the Lord if one is free from all sinful activities. A person who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. Therefore we ask our students, first discipline is that he must not have illicit sex life, he must not eat meat, he must not take any kind of intoxication, he must not indulge in gambling. Because these are sinful activities. So if one is engaged in these sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. It is impossible. One who is sinner, he cannot concentrate his mind on God. So voluntarily we should give up these sinful activities. Then it will be possible.

Sister Mary: There's a lot more ...sins than just those four things.

Room Conversation -- August 14, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: Irritated... If your mind is in peace... If you are not indulging in intoxication, gambling, illicit sex, then your mind will not be irritated. How a gambler can be in peaceful mind? That is not possible. How a drunkard can be in peaceful mind? Agitation is for them who are simply engaged in sinful life. Those who are not engaged in sinful life, naturally they are peaceful. Their mind is not agitated. Vegetarians are naturally peaceful. Just see between a dog and a cow. (laughter). Dog unnecessarily will talk: "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" (makes barking sound) without any fault. "Why you are here? Why you are here? Why you are here?" That is dog's qualification. A cow, so useful animal, it will never agitate. The dog has no use, but still he's the best friend. (laughter) And cow, actually giving us milk, sending to the slaughterhouse. Just see. This is human civilization. A dog is worshiped, and a cow is slaughtered. Do you think it is civilization? Do you think? Can you support this?

Room Conversation -- August 14, 1971, London:

Guest (2): Uh, let's look at the... I quite see these four principles. I wonder if one could look at it slightly from a positive side. You said no animal killing, slaughter and no intoxicants.

Revatīnandana: These are four "nos."

Guest (2): Yes. Fine. Fine. Let's look at the "yes's." What exactly can you eat?

Revatīnandana: We can eat anything: fruit, vegetables, milk products, grains, sugar, nuts, all kinds of vegetable foodstuffs.

Guest (2): Broadly speaking, anything that comes out of the earth.

Revatīnandana: Yes. And we can eat it after it's been offered to the Lord with love and devotion. This we call prasādam or Kṛṣṇa's mercy.

Prabhupāda: Actually, any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's, God's mercy. Just like grain. You cannot manufacture grain. It is by God's mercy you get it.

Guest (2): Have you any view on food that's been (indistinct) insects are killed, insecticide? Sort of thing?

Room Conversation -- August 15, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: Drug is killing the whole Western nation. You will be spoiled, you will be finished with this drug habit. You are already finished. America is finished. They cannot do anything anymore. Neither industrialists nor big scholars, neither big fighter. Anything. Simply spoiled. The only shelter is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pāpi tāpi yata chilo harināme uddharilo. They can be only saved by this process. They have no other... otherwise they are going to hell. All Americans, the so-called puffed up materialist. This is a fact. So if you want to do service to your country, introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the younger generation. They will be saved. You be saved and save your brothers. And otherwise this poison, this intoxication, heroin, cocaine, and LSD and this and marijuana, finished everything. But if you become steady in one life without deviating for māyā, then you make solution of all problems. That is the duty of human being . Instead of suffering this repeated birth and death, one life sacrifice. What is that sacrifice? What is inconvenience to live nicely, avoiding these four rascal habit, taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading all these nice books. Where is the difficulty? Nice life. First class life. Wherever you will go you will be respectable. Anyone will worship you.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: For example, for example, our boys, Europeans, American boys, they were addicted with illicit sex life. They were addicted to meat-eating. They were addicted drinking. They were addicted to gambling. Now they've given up everything. There is no illicit sex in our society. There is no gambling. There is no meat-eating. There is not even smoking, or taking, drinking tea. How it is possible? They were addicted to all these things from beginning of their life. Now they have given up. If you take this as good qualities, then they have already developed, besides others. Why? Because due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sometimes in America the authorities they are surprised. They want to consult us on that: "How you people have given up this (indistinct)." They are spending so much money to stop this bad habit. How it is that your members used to (indistinct) Not only LSD, all kinds of intoxications. So if you take it as a good quality, that good quality is developing due to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore this is a fact: one who has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness, he may go on speculating but he'll never come to the platform of goodness. That is our test.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1971, Delhi:

Devotee (3): We are also opening up homes for habituated japa-mālā users, who are also intoxicated, but in a spiritual way.

Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) That is required. (laughter)

Devotee (5): Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Devotee (5): The spiritual master, his duty is to take all of his disciples back to home, back to Godhead, and I've heard it said that he doesn't leave until he has taken all his disciples back. What is the position of Lord Jesus when so many people are following but not doing, not in a position to go back to home, back to Godhead? Is he responsible for all of these people, who are attempting to serve him?

Prabhupāda: That is nice question. What is that? Repeat it again.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation Including Discussion on SB 4.13.48 to SB 4.14.11 -- January 18, 1972, Jaipur:

Prabhupāda: So practically all over the world a class of men, a priestly class of men, they have made it a means of earning livelihood, temple achar(?), taking money from people and enjoying, and then become drunkard. In your country, five thousand drunkard priests were consolidated in a hospital for treatment. They're getting money. So there is possibility, we are opening temples, public is contributing. But if we become easy-goer, "Now money is coming, let us eat sumptuously and eat, eat and sleep, and if possible drink also." But, of course, we are restricting. But naturally when one man becomes idle, idle brain is the devil's workshop. So if he can get... Just like rich man's son, they become. Everyone has got experience in every country. When he has no difficulty to get money, then what he will do? He will simply drink or invent some means of intoxication, naked dance. So they became very much perturbed. Venasyāvekṣya durvṛttasya viceṣṭitam, vimṛśya loka-vyasanaṁ kṛpaya ucuḥ sma... Kṛpāya, they were very much compassionate.

Room Conversation -- March 12, 1972, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: I simply advise them that you regularly chant the sixteen rounds. Not more, you cannot make... You cannot imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura. But there must be one saṅkhyā. Saṅkhyā-pūrvaka-nāma-gāna. They are observing that and the regulative principles: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. And they are following other instructions, so they are wonderfully.

Dr. Kapoor: You know Dalmiaji's daughter-in-law, the wife of Viṣṇu Hari Dalmia...

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu Hari went to see me in London, perhaps with his wife.

Dr. Kapoor: Accha. She told me, she said the movement is all right but they are so strict, such strict rules and regulations are being imposed upon these people, how long will they be able to follow them?

Prabhupāda: That is a surprise.

Conversation with Author -- April 1, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: No. No. It is too late. Just like there is higher studies in science, in so many departments of knowledge. It is not that mass of people is interested in Ph.D. degree. But if one is interested in Ph.D. degree, therefore government provides him: "Yes, in university, you come." That is the real facility. So if anyone is interested to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, why it should be denied? Why this should be obstructed because I do not like it? In big, big universities, maybe in higher studies, there may be one student, and for that one student they are maintaining four professors. Each professor is paid two thousand dollars. Is it not a fact? What do you think, you professor. Is it not a fact? Some department of knowledge is maintained, even it is not paying. Is it not? There are so many departments simply for research work because the government knows it is important thing. It may not be for the mass of people, but at least one, two intelligent class of men, he pays, qualified: "Let them have this opportunity." So this is like that. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not for ordinary man, but it is very important movement. Those who are interested, why they should be denied? It should be maintained. We cannot expect everyone can give up all these bad habits, illicit sex, illicit meat-eating, or drink, or intoxication, gambling.

Room Conversation -- April 18, 1972, Hong Kong:

Prabhupāda: You cannot expect many disciples, but still, there are two thousand. Because I have got so many conditions and the fact is so difficult to understand, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have forgotten Kṛṣṇa, they have forgotten God, and I am trying to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is a very difficult job. I have to shed my blood three tons before I make one convinced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is my experience. I have to talk with him, especially these Europeans and Americans. They do not accept anything so blindly. They try to... I am always being questioned, even in my tooth(?) Question, question, question. That's nice. Inquisitive, they want to know. So I give them answers. I have got four secretaries always with me. They are giving answers. So to become Kṛṣṇa... Especially in Europe and America, when I make this condition that you cannot have illicit sex, you cannot have intoxication, you cannot meat eat, er, you cannot eat meat, you cannot have gambling... This is their daily affair. This is their life. Even Lord Zetland refused, "Oh, we cannot give up these things." So I am controlling them in this way. Still, they are coming. So it is very difficult job. Still, there are many thousands, and they are so sincere that if I ask them that... This boy is going to Red China. I am sending him. You see?

Room Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo:

Prabhupāda: So you come to again to the original. Yes. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are teaching no animal killing, no illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication. All my students, they are strictly following these principles all over the world. They are American, Europeans. So I have got students all over the world. Some of them from Christian, Buddhist also. I have got Japanese, Chinese, my students. Perhaps you have seen one of my students. His name is Bhānu. Formerly what was his name?

Sudāmā: Bruce Enimoto.

Prabhupāda: Come on. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dai Nippon representative: (indistinct)

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: Hm. But anyway, because you are living in this country, you must have some friends. Whenever you talk with your friends, you talk about Kṛṣṇa. Don't waste your time in other ways. That will be beneficial for you and for your friends. And before talking about Kṛṣṇa, you should know about Kṛṣṇa. And you can know about Kṛṣṇa very easily by understanding Bhagavad-gītā. So read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly. Try to understand it and you can distribute it. That is a great service to Kṛṣṇa, to your personal self, and to the person you are speaking about Kṛṣṇa. And four principles of impious life, as it is accepted by our Vedic followers, namely, no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. That will give you strength and over and above that, if you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... You can chant. It is not difficult. There is no loss. You can chant. That will give you spiritual strength. And in this way try to become spiritually powerful and serve Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't matter. Everywhere is Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the proprietor everywhere.

Interview -- July 5, 1972, New York:

Prabhupāda: There is possibility. Otherwise why these young men are coming? That I can say. There is good possibility, but we have no facility. Just like government is spending to stop the LSD intoxication, millions of dollars. But our students, as soon as they come, they become my students, I simply order them, "No intoxication." So what to speak of LSD, they do not take tea, they do not take coffee, they do not smoke. But government will not help us. That is the difficulty.

Guest (2): Do you seek government help?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If I get government help, I can give protection to these confused, frustrated youths. I have no proper house to accommodate them, to feed them. With great difficulty I am pushing on this movement. So if the government comes forward, this means a little facility, I can turn the face of your country, immediately. There will be no problem.

Interview -- July 5, 1972, New York:

Prabhupāda: This is the cure: I am making good character. Don't you see their face? Some of them were hippies, frustrated, wretched condition. Now they are known as bright faces, serious character. They don't have any illicit sex. They don't eat meat. They don't have any intoxication. They don't engage in gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. If you allow people to indulge in sinful life, how you can expect good citizen? That is not possible. Their character must reform. So we have taken from the root. We are making men of character, knowledge, sincerity, God conscious. Don't you appreciate it?

Guest (2): Will they be able to function in a society as working individuals?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is nothing prohibited. Simply you have to change your consciousness, that's all. We are also eating, we are also sleeping. Many of our students are householders; they have sex. So there is..., nothing is prohibited, but regulated for higher achievement. That is our program.

Interview with the New York Times -- September 2, 1972, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Of course there are good men and bad men, and good men are taking to this movement because it is a good movement. "Good" means not having illicit sex, not eating meat, not indulging in intoxication, and not indulging in gambling. If anyone observes these four principles, he is considered a good man, and if he does not observe them, he is a bad man. So good men will take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and bad men will not. We give distinct rules on how to become good, for if one does not become good, how can he understand God, who is all good? First we must become good men; then we can understand God. God is all good, and if we don't become good we cannot understand Him. That's all. It's up to us to make the choice. The past, present and future are open for everyone. There is no restriction; no one says, "This class of men shall be good, and this class of men shall be bad." Anyone can become good. If we educate a child nicely, he becomes good, but if we train him foolishly, he becomes a rascal. It is the duty of the government, of the father and of the teachers to make everyone good. If the government is bad, if the father is bad, and the society is bad—how can the child be good? Everywhere the government, father and society are bad; and therefore we are producing bad men, and therefore there is no peace and prosperity.

Interview with the New York Times -- September 2, 1972, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Yes, it should come forward. My students here are all United States citizens. I have not imported them from India. They are Americans, and they are in difficulty. So why shouldn't the government come forward? Their character is being formed, and they are becoming God conscious by participating in this movement. The government is spending millions of dollars to stop LSD and other drug intoxication, but my students are giving up everything simply by following my word. So why isn't the government coming forward to help me?

John Nordheimer: They don't care about the people, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: But don't they want good for their own men? I am stopping American boys and girls from taking LSD and other drugs, and the government is spending millions of dollars to do this. It is only practical that they come forward to support this movement.

Interview with the New York Times -- September 2, 1972, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Well, this is a very difficult job, naturally. We don't have a large number of followers. As soon as you try to sell a diamond, you cannot expect many customers. Nonetheless, a diamond is a diamond, even if there are no customers. The number of customers is not the test. The customer must pay the value of the item. In this society we propose that you give up illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. When people hear this, they go away saying, "Oh, Swamiji is very conservative." But I cannot become liberal and tell everybody, "Go ahead and do all nonsense and you can become God conscious." I cannot possibly recommend that. Therefore my first condition is that if someone wants to become my student he has to follow these four regulative principles. Consequently I do not have many followers, but I do have a select few. Because they are select, they will bring about a revolution in the world. One moon is sufficient to dissipate darkness. If there is one moon, there is no need for millions of stars. It is useless to expect a large number of followers.

Interview with the New York Times -- September 2, 1972, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Don't remain in darkness; come to the light. How is this possible? When I flew to London from Los Angeles, there was no darkness, for we did not allow the sun to set, you remain always in light. This means that if you don't forget Kṛṣṇa, your life will be successful. If you aim your plane westward and don't stop, you will remain in sunlight all the time. Similarly, if you remain in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by the simple method of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare, Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, you will never see the darkness. This is because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's name are absolute; Kṛṣṇa is not different from His name. Kṛṣṇa is light, and if we associate with the name of Kṛṣṇa, we remain in light. Remaining in light is a very simple method; therefore you see all these boys with their beads chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. In this way māyā cannot touch them. No intoxication, no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling. How can these boys, who have been trained to practice these four items from the beginning of their lives, give them all up? Everything is possible, provided we make the choice. Therefore according to Vedic civilization in the beginning of life you become a brahmacārī.

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa assures you, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. He will give you protection. Saṁskāra means you did some sinful activities and you are suffering. But He gives you protection. Sarva-pāpebhyo. Then what is the meaning of saṁskāra? You can change your saṁskāra immediately by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. Why you are so much concerned with saṁskāra? He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ... (BG 18.66), ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa... The saṁskāra as effects of sinful activities, that is troublesome. So He gives you protection. Mā śucaḥ, "Don't worry." Why don't you take this? You don't want to change your saṁskāra, and who can help you? That is a different thing. You don't want to change. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is ready to give you all help. How their saṁskāra is changed? From the very beginning of their life they are addicted to these principles: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. How they have changed? They don't touch it. How it has become possible?

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: It is said in the śāstra, striyaḥ sūnā pānaṁ dyūtaṁ yatrādharmaś catur-vidhāḥ: "Four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex life, striyaḥ; sūnā, the animal slaughter; pānam, intoxication; dyūtam, gambling." These are the four pillars of sinful life. So you have to break these pillars of sinful life. Then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. They have broken. On my word they have broken the first four pillars and therefore they are advanced.

Guest (4): I have had several people ask my why I don't eat meat and why Indians, some Indians don't eat meat. And I could not give them a convincing answer.

Prabhupāda: But that is there. It is stated in the śāstra. These are four sinful activities. (break) ...upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. You have to take knowledge from tattva-darśī, jñānī, not from some people, nonsense. What is the value of some people?

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 28, 1973, Jakarta:

Guest (1): Yes.

Devotee: Meat-eating, eating meat, illicit sex, gambling and intoxication.

Guest (1): Toxication, yes.

Devotee: Alcohol and those things and we must... Every day we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, sixteen times.

Guest (1): Sixteen times.

Devotee: On beads.

Guest (1): Yes, yes. Rosary. Rosary...

Devotee: After one year we may become initiated with this. And every day, three times, we use this for prayer, Gāyatrī mantra.

Guest (1): Three times. How many? One time? Pray for this? Pray for this?

Prabhupāda: Is this water or not?

Morning Walk -- May 4, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Suppose he knows the cause of cancer. What is the benefit? Neither he can stop cancer, neither a man suffering from cancer, if it is cured, he will live forever. That is not possible. Cancer or no cancer, a man has to die. He cannot check death. The death may be caused, if not cancer, simply by accident you can die. The real scientific research should be how to stop death. That is real scientific. That we are giving. To find out some medicine for some disease, that is not triumph. Real triumph is how to stop disease. That they cannot. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā puts before you the real trouble is this birth, death, old age and disease. That process we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). After giving up this body, no more acceptance of material body. This is real science. (break) ...suffer from cancer. (laughter) They don't suffer from cancer. So they are in better position than the so-called human society. They are creating causes of cancer disease and then making research and taking Nobel Prize. How foolish society it is, this. Why you create the cause of cancer disease? You accept these four principles of life—no meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex—there will be no cancer.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation continues for some sentences.) Who is practicing this? Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). He cannot be called a brāhmaṇa unless he acts according to his guṇa. If he's acting in differently, he should be... (break) ...utilized by the liberated person, still we can use it, provided we stop this process of animal killing. Then it will be very easier. This medicine... The doors will be... Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Therefore whoever comes to us to become our student, our first proposition is that "You should give up these four principles, illicit sex, animal-eating, gambling and intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee, cigarette." This is our condition. So the more you practice to these four prohibitive regulations, then you realize. Śrotramāno 'bhirāmāt. It will be very pleasing to the ear and to the mind. And unless anything is very pleasing, you cannot continue. Artificially, you can chant for few minutes. But if it becomes pleasing to you, then you can chant twenty-four hours, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No, you can... That will help you in future to give up these habits. Chanting you can begin at any condition. But when we initiate officially, we take this promise. Then we initiate. This is our condition. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā. According to śāstra, these are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. But these are modern civilization. It is very difficult.

Guest (3): Swamiji? Tea and coffee's also included?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also intoxicant. Pāna. Chāi, pāna. Pāna, pāna means intoxication. Dhūmra-pāna.

Guest (7): Dhūmra-pāna.

Guest (2): And what about supāri, Swamiji?

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Defense. Defense means... Just like we have discovered atomic bomb for defending. This is also material activities. So it requires time to learn. But one thing is, the beginning should be, as far as possible, our life should be sinless. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, it is said, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam. "Anyone who is completely freed from all sinful activities." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. "And always engaged in pious activities, such person can become devotee." Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 7.28). "He becomes free from the duality of this world, and becomes fixed-up in My service." So this is the condition, that yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam. Without being sinless, nobody can understand what is Bhagavān, what is Bhagavad-bhajana. Therefore this is the beginning of sinless life: no intoxication, no illicit sex... If you can, if somebody avoids these things, he does not die. It is simply a little practice. He's practiced to all these bad habits, and if he likes, he can give it up. It is not difficult. And this is tapasya, little tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). To become advanced in spiritual life, one has to accept some tapasya, austerity. So this is a simple austerity. Therefore when we officially initiate, we get this promise from the student, that "You have to follow this." And that's all.

Room Conversation with Guest -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: They are strictly following Vaiṣṇava principles. They... Whenever one comes to become my disciple, the first condition is that no illicit sex; no meat-eating, eggs, fish, nothing of the sort; no intoxication up to smoking cigarette, drinking tea and coffee; and no gambling. So they strictly follow these things. In our society, there is no tea-drinking even. We don't drink tea. So... Intoxication, pāna, chāi pāna, pāna... Pāna is intoxication.

Guest: Tāmbūla...

Prabhupāda: Tāmbūla. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhā.

Guest: (Sanskrit or Hindi: Kṛṣṇa is offered tāmbūla in the temple.)

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa can take.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Father Tanner: Yes. But which of those four pillars...?

Prabhupāda: All of them. All of them. Just like one is indulging in intoxication. He may say that "I am very pure." But how one can become pure, he's addicted to intoxicants? So I heard from one of my disciples that there is a hospital in U.S.A., and five thousand priests are there for curing their intoxication habit. Do you know that?

Father Tanner: I didn't know that number, but I know that there are hospitals and sanatoriums...

Prabhupāda: So if the priest is going to hospital for curing his intoxication habit, he's hypocrite.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Father Tanner: ...wouldn't he? I mean, the priest himself.

Prabhupāda: How a priest can be intoxicants?

Father Tanner: He would say, wouldn't he, that was just his weakness.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Father Tanner: He would say it was his weakness.

Prabhupāda: Weakness is hypocrisy. If you are weak, you cannot become priest. Because you are teacher, religious teacher. You should not take that post. That is hypocrisy.

Father Tanner: But perhaps this is the difference, or one of the differences between western and eastern civilization...

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Just like these boys, they are very young, twenties, between twenty to thirty. So they are made here brahmacārī, and some of them are sannyāsī, but they are strictly following these principles. Because they are young men, there cannot be any concession that he can become intoxicants, he can indulge in meat-eating. No.

Father Tanner: But would you think of a young man as wise man? Isn't it normal that a young man is working his way towards wisdom?

Prabhupāda: The wise man becomes by knowledge, not by age. Even an old man, if he has no knowledge, what is...? He is not wise man. Wise means one who has attained knowledge. He may be young, he may be old. It doesn't matter. Vidyatvaṁ vayasā vinā. In Sanskrit word, that one becomes elderly without being advanced in age. That means he knows the knowledge. Therefore he is elderly. An elderly person means advanced in knowledge, not by age.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Father Tanner: Hm. But, you see, knowledge and attainment aren't the same thing. You know, I may know that it is wrong to be an alcoholic, and maybe I am not actually, physically an alcoholic, but it doesn't mean to say that interiorally I have cleansed myself of all addiction. The fact that you are not drinking for a year doesn't mean to say that you have overcome the intoxicant urge if that is in you, although you know it is wrong.

Prabhupāda: No, this argument is not very strong. Just like one foodstuff, freshly made, it is fresh. But if somebody argues that if it remains four days more, it will become bad, that is surmisation. Now it is fresh. We take it fresh. What will happen in future, that is no consideration. In future, everyone may fall and everyone may become elevated. But we have to take his present situation, what he is at present.

Room Conversation with Two Buddhist Monks -- July 12, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Without any interpretation. Without any addition, alteration. No, we don't make that. If we make addition, alteration, then where is the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? We don't do that. And that is proving effective. Those who are taking according to the instruction, they're becoming happy. Practical. Without any consideration of time, country, people. Anyone is accepting, and he's becoming happy. And they are not expected to undergo very severe type of austerities. Neither prāṇāyāma or yoga. They are unable. Simply I have advised them, "With these beads chant Hare Kṛṣṇa sixteen rounds." They are chanting. It is very easy. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma... Sixteen rounds. It takes about two hours. And they're refraining from four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, gambling, intoxication, meat-eating. This much they are following austerities, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, taking prasādam. They are happy. Anyone can take. It is not difficult at all. Anyone. They are gṛhasthas. It is not that one has to become a sannyāsī. No. All my, these disciples... Here is a gṛhastha. Here is a sannyāsī. Here is a brahmacārī. So all together, they are serving the same purport. And we are getting good result. You have seen our Ratha-yātrā?

Room Conversation with Sir Alistair Hardy -- July 21, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But the subject matter is how to know God. So that can be taken as also, as Vedas. Because ultimate knowledge is how to know God. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So we accept Bible also as Vedas, but we simply say that they misinterpret the Biblical commandments. The Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill," and the Christian people are killing, maintaining slaughterhouse. What is this? This is my question. How they'll understand God if they are so much implicated in sinful activities? According to Vedas, there are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling. Yatra pāpaś catur-vidhaḥ. So God is purest. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). How one can approach God if he leads a sinful life? That is our propagation. You give up this sinful life. Then you'll be able to understand God. You follow Christianity or Mohammedanism or Buddhism. It doesn't matter. You give up this sinful life.

Room Conversation with Sir Alistair Hardy -- July 21, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Our Vedas are not meant for the cats and dogs. All śāstras and scriptures and Vedas, they are meant for human being. So if human being remains on cats and dogs, how he can understand? If he voluntarily remains like the cats and dogs, then how he can understand the Vedas or Bible or Koran? He cannot. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). We have to become pure before understanding what is God. Therefore every civilized society has got a type of religion to become purified so that he can understand God. Without being purified, how it is possible? That is not possible. So at least these things should be accepted as they are in the Bible, "Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not covet." Illicit sex life, intoxication, and killing of animals. These are in the Bible. Why they are not accepted? This is not our impositions. This is already there.

Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That they can continue. But the spirit of Vedic culture should be accepted. It is not that because one has to accept the Vedic culture, he has to stop industry or material progress. Not like that. Bhagavad-gītā does not teach that. Simply to change the consciousness. Therefore we have named the Society "Kṛṣṇa Consciousness." One has to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything will be adjusted. Not the mode of life should be changed. Little change. Just like we recommend that four things should be avoided: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. So to give up these four kinds of activities, which are considered to be sinful, that is not very difficult. That is not very difficult. These English and, I mean to say, European and American boys, they are young men. They have given up. So in the society, if there is prevalence of sinful activities, then there will be reaction. So these four things are considered sinful activities: illicit sex, meat, unecessarily killing of animals, and intoxication, and gambling. Yatra pāpas catur-vidhaḥ. These are four kinds of sinful activities. So Vedic civilization means they should be freed from the sinful activities. Then other things will automatically come.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That is vikarma. If you act sinfully, against the injunctions of the śāstra, then it is sinful, that is vikarma. And akarma means which does not produce any other result. That is akarma. Karma, akarma, vikarma. Yes. But generally we act, we indulge in karma to get some result. And that is karma. That is not vikarma. Vikarma, when you act against the principles of sinful activities, no, no, when you act as sinful activity, just like striyaḥ sūnā (Sanskrit). Four kinds of sinful activities are described in the śāstras: illicit sex life. You can not indulge in sex life without marriage, that is illicit, that is sinful. So killing animals unnecessarily, that is sinful. Then intoxication, that is sinful. And gambling. These are sinful activities. So when you do not obey the orders of the śāstra and engage yourself in sinful activities, that is vikarma, you're becoming bound up being entangled.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: The whole civilization is a plan of cheating others. That's all. And they're all sinful. According to our Vedic understanding, there are four things sinful, pillars of sinful life: illicit sex, unnecessary killing of animals, intoxication and gambling.

Mother: But you can lead a very happy life still, eating...

Prabhupāda: No. Our students are trained in that way.

Mother: There are a lot of very good people in the world.

Prabhupāda: Just see. You can see from your son. They can sit down anywhere. They can lie down. There is no artificial living. They are satisfied with nice foodstuff made from vegetable and milk. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, holy name of God.

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society. So how we can expect purification unless we accept these principles? You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. Similarly, if you want to purify the whole society, the first principle should be like this, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says,

mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu
yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ

Women should be treated as mother. They should be given protection. They should not be advertised for prostitution. All living (beings) should be given protection. This is the government's duty. A king's duty is government duty, that anyone who has taken birth on the land, he must be protected.

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

Haṁsadūta: haven't... Why hasn't there been peace in our civilization? Because we're practicing these four things: meat..., animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex life and gambling. According to Vedic scripture, these four activities are the sum and substance of sinful life, and sinful life means...

Prabhupāda: Pollution.

Haṁsadūta: Pollution. Or reaction. You're getting... Just like you make an automobile; you get the reaction-air pollution. So if you kill animals, you will be killed.

Popworth: You think like this?

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

Haṁsadūta: And intoxication itself means that you are polluted. Toxic means poison. Poison means pollution. So if you indulge in intoxication, everything you do, say and think will be polluted. If you kill animals, the result is you're polluting nature's... There are laws of nature. Animal is part of nature. You're part of nature. So if you disturb nature, that means you're polluting the nature. And you are living in that nature. So you are suffering the reaction.

Schumacher: The Buddhists have got a good, a good formula on this, and...

Haṁsadūta: It's common sense. That's all.

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Buddhist, Christian or Hindu. It is common sense philosophy.

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: And they are living very happily. You can see from their face. Yes. They are known as bright-faced. Yes. Many, I mean, Christian priests, they came to congratulate me: "Swamiji, how you have made your disciples so jolly and bright-faced?" The government in America, they are surprised, that even after spending millions of dollars, they could not drive away LSD intoxication. And as soon as a intoxicated person comes to our camp, he not only gives up LSD and liquor, he gives up even smoking, drinking tea and coffee. So why not experiment this movement. The greatest socialist movement. If you want to get the socialistic idea, we can give you. Would you like to take?

Reporter: Oh, I don't trust. I could trust. Yeah. But...

Prabhupāda: Our socialistic idea, you can note down...

Room Conversation with Rosicrucians -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Yogeśvara: When you come into the movement, there are no regulations required of you. But little by little, it comes to that point. Their experience is that they give their students in the movement... For a short period of time, they are required to give up intoxication and meat and things like that. But it's not permanent.

Prabhupāda: And then they can take.

Yogeśvara: Yes, afterwards.

Prabhupāda: So why in the beginning stop? Why in the beginning they are requested to give it up? (break)

Yogeśvara: Rosicrucian order doesn't force anything, doesn't make you do anything. (break) ...people that join this organization, only seven succeed.

Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: So we are simply trying to revive people's dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So every sane man, every good government, everyone should come forward to help this movement. It is not a personal affair. We are not presenting that "I am avatāra, I am God." We are presenting science, philosophy. You see? Why we are taking so much trouble to write so many books? If we... We want to convince people through science, philosophy, logic, religious principle, by practical behavior. All these boys are being trained up not to have any illicit sex, not to eat meat, and not to take any intoxication up to tea, coffee, cigarette and not to indulge in gambling. They're doing that. So we are making men of character, men of religion, men of philosophy. Why people should not cooperate with us? We are not presenting any blind, so-called religious faith. No. That is not our business. Our business is śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra. You understand little Bengali? You understand Hindi.

Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist -- September 10, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: Yes. We ask them to refrain from four prohibitive principles. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Refrain from these prohibitions. And chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And he becomes sane, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Very easy.

Dr. Hauser: Yeah, it sounds easy. I hope it works.

Prabhupāda: You see all the examples. Well, the same... I have not given them any bribe or anything.

Dr. Hauser: No, no, no. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: That they'll talk in my favor. But talk with them.

Room Conversation with Latin Professor -- December 9, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: "You don't become thief, you don't become murderer, you don't become this, don't become this, don't become intoxicant"—simply by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, he becomes everything, by one stroke. That is our propaganda, that if one becomes God conscious, then he is becoming perfect, not necessarily, materially and spiritually, both. And that is happening practically. Now these boys, these girls, they are Europeans, Americans. They were accustomed to so many bad habits and according to our standard, and now they have given up. They have no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication, even up to smoking or drinking tea. Yes. We don't allow our students... Not allow. They become accustomed. Once I say, "Don't do this," they agree. They agree immediately. Intoxication. There were many students, they were habituated to this nowadays intoxican... Immediately gave up. And your government is making so much propaganda to give up this intoxication. They are failure. So a little God consciousness helps so much.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Umāpati: ...I think that we were discussing the political possibilities of putting devotees into office, and we came up with the astounding discovery that we almost represent everything that is against western values. We represent austerity. We represent God consciousness. We represent restriction of sexual freedom, intoxication. All the four regulative principles are almost totally in opposite to western desires.

Prabhupāda: That means western people are all demons.

Umāpati: So the problem is trying to get into office under those circumstances, to make that known that "We stand for this," and to have anybody vote for you.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Nobody may vote but we must go on preaching. That I have already explained, some of the university. The whole country is illiterate. Does it mean university should be stopped? University must be there. One who is fortunate will come and take education. It is not an argument that "People are illiterate. They don't care for it. Therefore let the university be closed." This is no argument.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Umāpati: Actually, the people feel helpless. They feel there is nothing they can do anyway, about anything. That's why they are engaging so much in intoxication. They feel hopeless under this government.

Prabhupāda: That is the defect, that the government itself is imperfect. How they can check?

Umāpati: Well, they're so foolish. There was an article in the paper the other day about this shot going to Jupiter and the scientists were described, the scientists that everybody is supposed to depend upon, they were described as biting their fingernails in the hopes that everything would come out all right.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Umāpati: It's intoxication also.

Prabhupāda: After all, they accept authority. Either the doctor or the television, is it not?

Yaśomatīnandana: Now they should accept Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They cannot say that they don't want authority. They cannot say. The authority is already there.

Karandhara: Well, the common people are crying for authority, leadership.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to teach them how to elect leader. These are the qualification of the leaders. He must not be sinful. Then he can be. (break) ...people will find in our camp.

Morning Walk -- December 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (in the car) They are, the so-called scientists, they are taking the effects as cause. That is illusion. Actually the soul has nothing to do with this, anything, material world, but according to the environment he is creating certain material condition. (break) I don't require liquor, but if I want to be intoxicated, then liquor is present.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Since I am conditioned in this material body...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, as soon as I condition, I create an environment which is material. Therefore these so-called scientists, they have no eyes to see the spirit. They take this material condition as the cause of the spirit. And then again, when they find that in spite of presence of these chemicals, the life is not there, they are bewildered. They say, "Yes, we are trying to improve." Therefore they do not find the cells in the dead body.

Morning Walk -- December 15, 1973, Los Angeles:

Karandhara: Lenin said that God is just opiate of the people, just to keep them intoxicated.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. That means Lenin wanted to become God. That's all. The God idea is there, but he cannot be God. Because he was under the laws of God, he died. He died. He could not save himself from death. Therefore he is not supreme authority. He accepted supreme authority, but he wanted himself to become the supreme authority. Now, when he died, he is not supreme authority. He is forced to die. Then there is another supreme authority.

Karandhara: Well, then they can say ultimately death is meaningless anyway.

Prabhupāda: Why meaningless? Then why you are afraid of death when I come to kill you?

Morning Walk -- December 15, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: ...what these rascal philosophers do, psychologists and scientists, they say the things that are very sinful actually, that Kṛṣṇa says and the Bible and all of scriptures say are sinful, they say, "That's all right. You may do those things." Not only do they deny God's existence, but they say that which is sinful is actually good for you: "Yes. You must have intoxication, take illicit sex life," like that.

Prabhupāda: No good man will say like that. That is the difference between good man and bad man. The same example as I told, that one blind man is going this side, and another man says, "Yes, you are all right. Go this side." This is going on. Either he does not know, this rascal who says, "Yes, you can go this side," that he will fall down in the ocean and die... Both of them do not know. So one blind man, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is giving direction to another blind man. This is going on. Therefore Vedic injunction is to take direction: "You must go to guru." That is in... Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Gurum eva, "Must go." Then he will get right direction. Otherwise misguided.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1973, Los Angeles:

Devotee: They would lose too much money if they closed the slaughterhouses. Many of the senators and congressmen have much money from the slaughterhouses and intoxication. They own big ranches of cows and bulls.

Prabhupāda: Just see. And they are leaders. The most sinful man is the leader. So how you can be happy?

Prajāpati: We would get support from the people who make imitation meat made of soybeans and vegetables that taste like meat. They would be in favor.

Girirāja: No, they will say that "It is not against our religion to eat meat."

Prabhupāda: It is not religion. It is a question of becoming sinless. Every religion will say that you become sinless. Every religion.

Morning Walk -- December 20, 1973, Los Angeles:

Karandhara: There is one very famous philosopher named Dubrown(?). He said that he had a saying that "Some men say that you become intoxicated by wine, but I become sobered by wine."

Prabhupāda: That can be accepted. "One man's food, another man's poison." That is going on everywhere. But for that reason one cannot accept poison as food. Is it not? Just like stool is food for the pigs. But that does not mean stool is food. It may be food for a certain class of animals. (break) No.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't think so.

Morning Walk -- December 20, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: Yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in class, you mentioned how the churches, people could pay them for supposedly becoming very religious men. In Las Vegas, the capital of the gambling and the illicit sex and the intoxication, where all these things are very prominent, the churches there are very prominent also. These big demons, they pay large money to the churches and therefore they feel like they are very religious men even though they are committing all these sinful activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And by taking their sinful money, because they do not engage to Kṛṣṇa, they also become sinful. Affection. Infection. (break) They have mentioned something like sinful?

Prajāpati: Yes, sinful.

Morning Walk -- December 31, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is another point. That one who has gold, he can purchase these four kinds of sinful activities: meat-eating, gambling, intoxication, illicit sex. If you have money, you can get illicit sex from big, big quarters. Is it not?

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The sinful activities have increased because the world has produced too much wealth. Because they can purchase sinful activities. And that is being increased by inflation. False money I have got, and with that false money I can purchase all this illicit sex, wine, intoxication, and... It is just like nowadays, bank is giving you a card, "Americard..." What is that?

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 3, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the only remedy. That is the only remedy. Anyone who takes to this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, he'll be cleansed of all sinful activities and then everything will come out nice. And it is practical. It is not story. Just see, all our disciples in Europe, America, they were habituated to so many bad habits, and because they are chanting, they are now cleansed. So it is small-scale. If you propagate it large-scale, everyone will be cleansed. (break) ...disciples who were trained up from very beginning of their life: meat-eating. They are giving meat-eating. Here in your country, small children, they are fed with meat-powder. Intoxication is also a daily affair. How they are giving up all intoxication? (break) Is there arrangement for... Where is Karandhara?

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes, śubhāśubha. When I was in Boston, I was thinking that "I have come here. How they will receive me? As soon as I'll say that 'No meat-eating, no illicit sex, and no gambling, and no intoxication,' immediately they will say, 'Please go home, don't preach here.' All right." So for one year there was no success, you see? And I was going to the shipping company: "When your next ship is coming to return back?" So the manager was telling, "Swamiji, you are always inquiring, but you never go." (all laugh) I said, "Yes, when I am too much frustrated, I come to here to ask you. Then again I go back: 'Let me see two months more.' " It was going like that. Nobody was there with me.

Morning Walk -- February 20, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: I thought all these things intoxicants, are universal. Not only Indians.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. In the...

Dr. Patel: Even, even, even, it...

Prabhupāda: No, no, in...

Dr. Patel: It was inculcated into the civilization of China.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This I know definitely. The hippies, the hippies came to India. The hippies... (Dr. Patel and the Indian men argue in background)

Morning Walk -- February 22, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is that wrong that we are preaching no meat-eating, no intoxication. We are the greatest criminal.

Dr. Patel: No, no, not that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: They are rascals.

Prabhupāda: But who is accepting they are? They are still getting votes.

Dr. Patel: They'll not get vote now. That Dundubhi said they'll not get. Dundubhi... No, they will not.

Morning Walk -- March 6, 1974, Mayapura:

Siddha-svarūpānanda: The third greatest cause of accidental death in, in the world...

Prabhupāda: Is intoxication.

Siddha-svarūpānanda: It is...

Prabhupāda: Yes, this drunkard. Especially the drunkard, they collide.

Siddha-svarūpānanda: I think that's the second.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Room Conversation -- March 20, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Uncivilized. A similar thing is happening in India where the civilization is supposed to be so... And actually it is so, but they have become so degraded that a responsible officer in the government, he is saying that "Bhajana is nuisance." You see. He has no knowledge what, how much valuable, spiritually valuable, bhajana is. In the Bhagavad-gītā... Gandhi accepted Bhagavad-gītā. It is said, catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛti... Gandhi was chanting in temple: Raghupati rāghava. So what they are following? Gandhi was against drinking and intoxication. Now they're introducing. So this is the position of the government. Therefore I suggest that according to the word, so far traffic, we are diverting the ways this way. And let people come here, join with bhajana, take prasādam, and they sign, "Yes, there must be a temple here." Let this. And make propaganda that people may come here, and... I am present here.

Morning Walk -- March 27, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: And drinking, meat-eating.

Prabhupāda: Yes, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling. So these four things are encouraged by the government. Gambling, that, what is that? Lottery.

Devotees: Lottery.

Prabhupāda: And meat-eating: beef shop.

Girirāja: Masko(?).

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Girirāja: The government has big distribution...

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: These rascals, asuras, they do not know what is the goal of life. But in which way we should direct? These rascals, they do not know. Still, they become public leaders, asuras. Na viduḥ. How to dissuade people to stop this? Just like we are doing: no illicit sex. Nivṛtti. Nivṛtti. No illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating. This is nivṛtti. And pravṛtti, take to Kṛṣṇa. This is pravṛtti, nivṛtti. But the rascal demons, leaders, they do not know these things. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na viduḥ asura-jana (BG 16.7). They do not know it. Still, they become leaders. They do not know in which way people should be directed, and still they claim to be public leaders.

Indian man: Na ācāro na satyaṁ te śuddha vidyate.

Morning Walk -- April 17, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Others also, followers. These ordinary, so-called Gosvāmīs in Vṛndāvana, in the outwardly, in religious dress, and inwardly they are committing so many sinful activities, they will become the dogs and hogs and monkeys in Vṛndāvana. So one Gosvāmī, he has taken very much objection to this writing, and he is making propaganda against me like anything. There was arrangement of reception. He stopped it. (break) That I have also written, that now, after finishing the sinful reaction, these monkeys and dogs will be liberated. That I have also written. (break) has passed stool, during daytime, due to the sunshine, the upper side is dry. So if somebody says, "This side is better than the other side. The moist side is not so good. The dry side is good." (break) ...nation, you'll find (indistinct) gentlemen, but they do not know that these things are criminals. They think it is ordinary thing, illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: The king, the public leader, the brāhmaṇa, and... At least these three men, they should be free from the four kinds of sinful activities. If they are personally sinful, how they can lead other people? That is not possible. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If a man is himself blind man, how he can lead other blind men? That is not... It is dangerous for both of them. So the leaders, the politicians, the king, the brāhmaṇa, they should be very much pure, without any sinful tinge of life. And the pillars of sinful life is illicit sex life and meat-eating and intoxication and gambling. Now, unfortunately, the leaders are teaching people how to enjoy illicit sex life, meat-eating and intoxication. Then how the society can be happy? It is not possible. If you become criminal or if you infect some disease, you must suffer. Similarly, in the material world there are three guṇas: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. So if you associate with sattva-guṇa, then you become enlightened.

Morning Walk -- April 24, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Then they will be very much pleased. And as soon as you criticize, that "You are doing this wrong, you will suffer." "Oh, yes, this Swamiji is not (indistinct)." That is going on everywhere. In the name of religion you do all nonsense rascaldom, and the leader approves, "Yes, you can do." Vivekananda did it. "Yes, there is no difference between eating meat and not eating eat in terms of religion system." He preached this, and all the sannyāsīs of the Ramakrishna Mission they eat meat, they drink, they have woman secretary, everything. This Chinmayananda is also like that. I know his whole mischief. Unless one is purely Kṛṣṇa conscious, one cannot give up all these bad habits. This is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa (SB 11.2.42). One... Unless one is substantially advanced in kṛṣṇa-bhakti, they cannot give up this material attachment—illicit sex, meat eating—they cannot. It is impossible. So even in the name of swami or big, big yogis... They are doing all these things. Especially those who go in foreign countries... In USA illicit sex is very cheap. Everything is very cheap. Yes. Intoxication very cheap, meat-eating very cheap, gambling, very cheap, so when they get this cheap amenities, they forget their so-called spiritual life.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Atreya Ṛṣi: Maybe you could ask specific examples of differences.

Richard Webster: Well, for Roman Catholics it is right to drink wine, for instance.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Drinking, intoxication.

Richard Webster: Not intoxication, to drink wine.

Atreya Ṛṣi: What is wine? He's saying that a Roman Catholic can take wine. The law allows them to take wine.

Richard Webster: Or tobacco or meat.

Atreya Ṛṣi: Or tobacco or meat. So the rules are different.

Prabhupāda: Then rules are not different, but we have to see. Just like your commandments. In the commandments there is "Thou shall not kill." Then how you can eat meat?

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: We don't find there is sanction by God to drink. But under certain circumstances, beverages, different types of beverages allowed, not for intoxication but for keeping health. That is different thing. Just like in the moon planet, it is mentioned they drink soma-rasa. Soma-rasa is a kind of beverage made from extract of herbs. So because it is very cold there, so they drink that, but not for intoxication. People drink for intoxication. Just like in medicine, so many drugs are used. Even opium is used. Yes. Morphia is used. But they are not used ordinarily. For a specific purpose. Even snake poison is used, but that does not mean snake poison should be used perpetually. So for benefit of the body under particular circumstances something may be recommended, but that is not for general use or for intoxication.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is due to third-class, fourth-class men. There is no first-class men. The brāhmaṇas are considered to be first-class men, the kṣatriyas are considered to be second-class men, and the vaiśyas, they are third-class men, and rest, all fourth-class and fifth-class. So at the present moment there is third-class, some, and all fourth-class and fifth-class. There is no first-class and second-class men. So unless they are, at least some of them are first-class men, ideal, the human society is doomed. It cannot be peaceful. Full of śūdras, fourth-class men. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for creating some first-class men. This is our ideal. Therefore we forbid them not to take meat, not to have illicit sex, not to..., because these things are accepted by the fourth-class, fifth-class men: unrestricted sex life, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are not to be indulged by the first-class, second-class men, even third-class. It begins from the fourth-class men. Fourth-class, fifth-class.

Room Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: So we forbid our students to refrain from four sinful activities: No illicit sex life, no meat-eating, and no intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee or smoking. They are also intoxicants. And no gambling. These four principles, they avoid completely. And as it is recommended in this book, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: (BG 18.65) "Always think of Me," man-manā. "Just become My devotee. Just offer your obeisances unto Me, and just worship Me." Four principles. If you follow these four principles without any offense, then you go back to home, back to Godhead. So for remembering God, you chant always God's name on these beads.

Morning Walk -- May 30, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: No, this is the..., that you do it. If they do not do it, then who will come? This declaration is there, that "If you do this, then you can be interested." But if you do not, then you go on with your own business. A similar... The same things Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parit... mām ekam. Kṛṣṇa is demanding that you do it, "Surrender unto Me." The śāstra also says, "Surrender unto the representative of Kṛṣṇa," mahīyasām. But if they do not do, what can be done? Just see this sparrow. The sex is always accompanying, any time ready. The pigeons, any time ready. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. That is the only attachment for this material world, viṣaya. Whole world is fighting for this viṣaya. "I must have nice eating, I must have nice sleeping, I must have very good sex, and I should be defended by bank balance, by military soldiers, by police force, by atomic weapons." This is going on. Defense. Rascal does not understand that "In spite of all these things, I will have to change the body, and the same thing will be available again, in a different way." This intoxication, cigarettes. The ant, the small ant, they are very fond of intoxication. You know that? As soon as there is information, "On the top of the skyscraper building, there is a grain of sugar," they will go. (laughing) Because sugar contains intoxication. The wine is made from sugar, molasses. It has got the intoxication. You keep a grain of sugar there, and there will be hundreds and thousands... (laughter) Gold rush.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Therefore, if they have no knowledge what is sinful, simply by instruction, "Don't do something sinful," so what is the use? They must know. We give in the beginning, in our society, "These are are sinful activities." What is that? Meat-eating, sinful activity. And gambling, illicit sex, and intoxication. You must give it up. All these European and American boys, they were habituated to all these things from the very birth. They did not know they are sinful. But since they have come to me, I have said, "These things are sinful." They have given up. And just compare with their character, with their behavior... (break)

Room Conversation with Monsieur Roost, Hatha-yogi -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So it is confirmed by the greatest authority, and if we practice... This practice can be done in the association of devotees. And that is perfection of life. There are some conditions about self-control: no meat-eating, no fish, no eggs, no illicit sex life, and no intoxication, even smoking, drinking tea, and no gambling. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Very easy. And everyone can perform it without undergoing the bodily exercises, which is sometimes difficult for a common man. So one can adopt this bhakti-yoga process and become perfect. And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). If one becomes accustomed to this habit and at the time of death, he thinks of Kṛṣṇa, then his life is perfect. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran?

Room Conversation with Monsieur Roost, Hatha-yogi -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said, "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as gṛhastha, live. If you want to live as vānaprastha or as sannyāsa... So generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the śāstra. But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life. That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible.

Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne -- June 4, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: The fascist and the non-fascist and this and everyone... And that is being prepared, the atomic bomb. You see? They will be all killed, nature's way. You see? They have become so sinful. I am speaking this freely because you are a gentleman, but the civilization, modern civilization, everyone is addicted to intoxication, everyone is flesh-eating, everyone is illicit sex, everyone is addicted to gambling. So where is pure person? They require all to be killed, fascist and non-fascist. Because according to Bhagavad..., paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). All these people, under different names.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Yes, but we do not keep him śūdra. A devotee is no longer śūdra. We are creating brāhmaṇas. Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu-saṁhitā, they are mlecchas, yavanas. But we are not keeping them mlecchas and yavanas. Just like these European and American boys. They are accepting the Vedic regulatives principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more śūdras or caṇḍālas. They are brāhmaṇas.

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: What meditation? The thing is that here it is stated, "Unless one is free from all sinful activities, he cannot be engaged in My service." And the pillars, according to Vedic, pillars of sinful activities... Just like four pillars. One is this meat-eating, the other is illicit sex, the other is gambling, and the other is intoxication. So unless we break these four pillars of sinful life there is no meaning of meditation or worshiping God. You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. So sinful life means destruction of spiritual life. So once you begin spiritual life, and other way you begin sinful life, then how it will be? It is counteracted. There is no progress.

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Swiss Man (1): (French)

Morning Walk -- June 9, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: It is very, very difficult for them. To give up intoxication, especially in the western countries. That Lord Zetland, Marquis of Zetland, when one of my godbrothers went to London for preaching, so Lord Zetland said, "Can you make me a brāhmaṇa?" And then he said, "Yes, why not? You have to give up these things: no illicit sex, no intoxication." He said, "Oh, it is impossible. For us, it is impossible." So actually, these four prohibitory rules is impossible for these rascals.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They would rather die than give them up, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Morning Walk -- June 9, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will appreciate. Our... Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Without anartha-nivṛtti... Anartha-nivṛtti means stopping all unwanted things. Anartha. Anartha means which does not give us any profit and unnecessarily we are accustomed. Suppose we do not take any intoxicant. So what is our inconvenience? But people are spending millions and millions of dollars only for smoking. Therefore it is useless, anartha. But they cannot give it up. And condition is that without anartha-nivṛtti, there cannot be attachment for God.

ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā
tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ
athāsaktis tato bhāvas tataḥ premābhyudañcati
sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ
(Cc. Madhya 23.14-15)

These are the steps. So after anartha-nivṛtti, one is firmly fixed up in devotional service. And if the anarthas are disturbing him, then he's not fixed up. He'll fall down. He'll fall down. That risk is already there. So these people are so much accustomed to this anartha, and they cannot give it up.

Room Conversation with Christian Priest -- June 9, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: And you can always think of, just like these boys have been taught, walking on the street, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma... Just like we have got this. I am talking with you, but two minutes I talk with you, as soon as I stop, I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma... What is the difficulty? It is simply practice. No difficulty. And simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, everyone can see how these young boys and girls, they are not very old, they have taken to it quite young, but they have forgotten everything. They do not go to cinema, do not go to hotel, no dancing. Dancing they have got—Kṛṣṇa dancing, always. Painting they have got, singing they have got, arts, literature. We have got eighty books like this, four hundred pages. Pure life—no meat eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. Finished. And it is guaranteed if you remain in this attitude, Kṛṣṇa says that "Surely you come back to me." What is the second line? Man-manā...

Room Conversation with M. Lallier, noted French Poet -- June 12, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? If you follow these four principles—no illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication, no meat—then you'll, you are secure. But who is going to accept this?

Karandhara: The young man can understand that the degradation has occurred because of ignorance. The knowledge has been forgotten by which the upliftment or evolution can continue. So Prabhupāda and this movement, we're representing that knowledge. The knowledge has always been there, but it's been lost. It's been forgotten. So if that knowledge is represented, and made available, then that ignorance becomes dispelled, and the advancement can again go on.

Morning Walk -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes. But gradually they will eat more meat and drink more wine. They, do they follow these principles: no intoxication, no meat, the so-called yoga practitioners?

Paramahaṁsa: Some, some do.

Prabhupāda: So it is not compulsory.

Bhagavān: One thing is, though, that people all over the world have great, great interest in India. They're looking for something in India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They should because the actual spiritual understanding is there in India.

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that "This is denying the primary necessities of life." Rāyarāma, Rāyarāma. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life. Illicit sex, intoxication... He was first-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left.

Devotee: Yes, I spoke with him in San Francisco, and he said, "Swamiji will not be successful because he does not allow free love in his movement." He says, "That is why I had to leave because there was no place for me and my boyfriend." Even he was not attracted to having a girl, but he had a boy. That boy used to be also your typist. He was from Harvard University.

Prabhupāda: That Neil.

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we have heard from our childhood that Paris is a place where people can go and enjoy prostitution. When we were children. I told you last night. So this city is undoubtedly constructed with good merit, but it is used for sinful act... Nobody goes to... Beautiful church, nobody goes there. But beautiful, that theater, because there is naked dance, everyone goes. And therefore duṣkṛtina. Church is vacant. Only the tourists come to see the churches. Not that such a important city, always glorification of Lord is going on. Just like we are trying to do. Take prasādam, worship the Deity, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That would have been the activities of these beautiful churches, but there is no such activity, because people are duṣkṛtina. They have got merit, to construct very nice wonderful buildings, but it is meant for sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and so on. And poor women, they are victimized by these rascals. That's all. Then.

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: This is very prominent in the western country, which we are asking, that no meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex. These things are only thing enjoyable.

Satsvarūpa: They think if you eliminate those, there is nothing left to live for.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Rāyarāma's statement. Yes. I am denying the bare necessities of life. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Who will try for becoming perfect in this way? Very disappointing. But still, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that helping so many. They are doing actually. All right, keep it.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya's program is so attractive that even...

Room Conversation with Mr. Tran-van-Kha, and President & Members of the Society of Buddhists in France -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: He was Hindu in the beginning. Come on. He was Prince, then He become renounced and He was known as Lord Buddha. So Lord Buddha also started His system for stopping animal killing. Lord Jesus also said, "Thou shall not kill." Unfortunately the animal killing is not stopped. We are therefore teaching our followers: no meat-eating, so that if people stop meat-eating, automatically animal killing will be stopped. According to Vedic system, there are four pillars of sinful life, just like this table is on the four pillars. So one pillar is illicit sex, another meat-eating, another intoxication, and another gambling. So at least the brāhmaṇas, the priestly heads of religion, the king and the public leader, they should stop these four sinful activities. The leaders of the society they must be sinless. Then the human society will make nice progress. In the Bhagavad gītā it is stated: yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fact. If you are actually devotee, then God will reveal. That is... That is stated in the Vedic language, ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ: (Brs. 1.2.234) "You cannot understand the form, name, attributes, pastimes of God by these blunt senses." These senses, present (the ten) senses, cannot realize. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. Indriya means sense. Then how to realize? Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. When you begin service with your tongue, then gradually God reveals. So tongue means you can do two business with the tongue. One is talking, and one is eating. So if you engage your tongue in glorifying God, and if you eat God's prasādam, then you realize God. Therefore these young boys and girls from Europe and America, they have been, they are being taught, "Use the tongue for Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam." And as practical result, although they are very young, still, they have realized God, Kṛṣṇa, far advanced than anyone else. They have forgotten all material things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are simply devoted in the service of Kṛṣṇa. So because they have engaged their tongue in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, they have forgotten all kinds of intoxication, meat-eating. The American Government spent millions of dollars to stop their LSD habit. They could not stop even one man. But as soon as they come to Kṛṣṇa conscious, immediately give up.

Morning Walk -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: ...five items. No illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication, no meat-eating and chant sixteen rounds. Is it very difficult task?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Prabhupāda: And why people do not take it?

Haṁsadūta: They are just foolish.

Prabhupāda: If by following these five principles one can be saved from all problems of life... Still, people will not take it. Just see, strong māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). (break) What was the later on talk?

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if for a small government, three bighās of land, you require a personal governor, and such a huge government, millions and millions of universes, how the governor, the Supreme Person, supreme executive, shall not be a person? What is the reason? Actually, at the present moment, people have given up to understand the science of God. That is the defect. They are thinking everything here. Here is advertisement, "Everything here. Come on. Here is a bottle. Here is the pack (peg?). Come on." Everything here. That is the defect. And we are preaching, "Everything is not there." "Everything is lost there," we are preaching. No intoxication. And the material world is preaching, "Everything is there." This is the difference. We are preaching, "Everything is here in Kṛṣṇa, in God." We have... There is a tendency here. Just see. They want to worship Deity. Even on the street side there is such thing. The tendency is to worship Deity, person. I have seen in Rome. In many small lanes, they have got this, yes. Personal worship. So the village men, they are all sleeping now?

Room Conversation with Pater Emmanuel (A Benedictine Monk) -- June 22, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting... You are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting, there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue, we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish, no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking, no gambling, no illicit sex and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo, or Christo, Christo." Is there any objection?

Reporters Interview -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: The sinful, yes. Four items we prohibit our students. They do not indulge. Illicit sex life, meat, fish, egg-eating, intoxication up to cigarette smoking, drinking tea, coffee, and gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. So unless one gives up these four things he cannot understand what is God, what is God's kingdom, what is our business. Nobody can understand.

Guest (2): Drinking tea and coffee also?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is also intoxication.

Guest (3): Your Divine Grace, in a lot of scriptures I read there is a lot of references to breath and the breath as being the...

Morning Walk -- July 9, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So they have mentioned, "American Hindus." (chuckles) (pause) It is a dead blow to the material civilization: "No drinking and no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling, no illicit sex." Their whole civilization is finished. Because they stand on these things, four pillars.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They have no other...

Kṛṣṇa-kānti: Therefore we must present a better civilization.

Prabhupāda: Eh?