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Independent (Conversations 1968 - 1974)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- October 27, 1968, Montreal, With First Devotees Going to London On Evening of Their Departure:

Prabhupāda: And in the Bhāgavata, Śukadeva Gosvāmī recommends that "Oh, this open field is your bed, this is your pillow, this is your pot, and the water in river is sufficient water, the tree is full of fruits, and in the cave, there is sufficient apartment. So why should you go, anyone, to ask for your shelter, for your food?" Kasmād bhajanti kavayor dhana-durmadandhān: "Why should you approach the materialistic, puffed-up, monied men to give you some help?" So Śukadeva Gosvāmī was strictly following this, strictly following, completely independent. That is not possible at the present day. (chuckles) If we imitate, that will be not good. We have to depose(?). Our Gosvāmīs, they have prescribed yukta-vairāgya: accept everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is yukta-vairāgya. It is also vairāgya. Śuṣka-vairāgya and yukta-vairāgya. Śuṣka-vairāgya means simply renunciation without assimilation. Māyāvādī sect, Śaṅkara sect, they have got stringent laws for renunciation. But Vaiṣṇavas, they have no stringent law. They accept everything as Kṛṣṇa-prasādam, actually offering Kṛṣṇa, working for Kṛṣṇa, living for Kṛṣṇa. This is the best use. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "The best use of a bad bargain." Everything in Kṛṣṇa relationship. That is yukta-vairāgya.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- April 11, 1969, New York:
Prabhupāda: It is shadow of the real beautiful girl. It is created at some time and... So reality is there in the spiritual world. Therefore it is called janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The idea comes from there, but the impersonalists, due to their intelligence being very meager, they think that the Absolute Truth is without any variety, impersonal or void. They think that varieties are only in the material world, but actually, real varieties are there in the spiritual world. It is only reflection, as it is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, ūrdhva mūlam adhah-śākha. Adhah-śākham. Aśvatthaṁ prāhur avyayam. Aśvattha... This material creation, material manifestation is compared with a banyan tree whose root is upward. And that I have explained several times how the tree can be upwards root. That means it is reflection. Just like you stand on the riverside, the tree will be reflected on the river, on the water, as obverted. That means that is reflection. As soon as we say that this is a tree, the root of which is up, that means it is reflection. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they do not take account of the mathematical calculation, 380 degree. They are taking account of... 360 degree, the whole circle. They are taking account only 180 degree. And other 180 degree they're making void. But actually, the whole point is 360 degree. That is geomatrical calculation. If you simply know 180 degree, then the other 180 degree is unknown to you. So real life, real variety, real beauty, real knowledge, everything in reality is there in the spiritual world. It is only reflection. Therefore Bhāgavata explains that janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). The Supreme Absolute Truth is cognizant, abhijñaḥ. Cognizant and svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means independent. In this way, the explanation of Brahma-sūtra is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therefore Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is vaiṣṇavānāṁ priyam. Yad vaiṣṇavānāṁ priyam. Yasmin paramahaṁsam ekaṁ paraṁ jñānam jñeyate. The knowledge of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is to be understood by the paramahaṁsa, the highest perfected man, paramahaṁsa. It is not ordinary thing.
Room Conversation -- April 27, 1969, Boston:

Prabhupāda: Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tasya samādhikaś ca dṛśyate. This is from Upaniṣad. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate svabhaviki-jnana-bala-kriya ca (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). It is said that nobody is seeing... This is called research. You are accepting any nonsense as God, and they do not have any information from the..., that God means na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tasya samādhikaś ca dṛśyate: "God has nothing to do, no responsibility. Nobody is found greater than Him." So if this Vedic injunction is followed, if somebody is claiming, "I am God," we have to see whether he has nothing to do and whether nobody is greater than him. And these two tests will make him false immediately. He has to prove that nobody is greater than... Even contemporary... Suppose I am claiming I am God. So I have to show that at the present moment, throughout the whole world, apart from universe, nobody is greater than me. Then I am... Will these pretenders be able to show that nobody is greater than him? This is a simple test. And na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate: "And he has nothing to do." There are so many things to test who is God. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇaḥ. Nobody shall be richer than him; nobody shall be stronger than him; nobody shall be wiser than him; nobody shall be beautiful than him. So these things have to be tested, whether he is God. And simply if I claim, "Oh, I am God," there will... No testament? If I say, "I am President Nixon," will you accept it? If you don't accept it, even an ordinary President Nixon, without testing his credentials, how you will accept a false man as God without testing? You must know what is that test. Credential. He must present credential. Just like when some ambassador comes to a foreign country, there is a ceremony that that ambassador must be recognized by the governor or the governor-general in that state, and he has to place his credentials, similarly, anybody is claiming as God, he has to place his credentials. And what is that credential? The test is there in the Upaniṣad, in the Bhagavad-gītā and so many, all literatures, Brahma-saṁhitā, Vedānta-sūtra, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam first it is said, janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). Svarāṭ, svarāṭ means fully independent. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. The Supreme Truth, fully independent. We are not fully independent. And just now, if I feel a little toothache, I will have to go to a doctor. So how can I claim that I am God? God's first qualification is fully independent, svarāṭ. Abhijñaḥ. Abhijñaḥ means fully cognizant of everything. What is that?

Puruṣottama: Lugdoos.

Room Conversation -- May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Kīrtanānanda: But everything is being controlled ultimately by Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: Either by inferior energy or superior energy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Kīrtanānanda: So his activities are never independent, either in Kṛṣṇa or...

Prabhupāda: Never, never, never. That is his insanity, another. As soon as he thinks that "I am independent," that is another insanity. He is under control. Just like the same man. He is thinking, "I don't care for state laws." He is insane. He will be forced to accept state laws in the prison house by the police. But he thinks, "Oh, I am free man." Still... He is slapped by the police. He says, "Oh, I am independent. Go on slapping." This is insanity. Is it not insanity? The police slaps him, and he says, "I am independent." Do you think independence? So that sort of independence we are having. We are kicked by māyā always, and we are thinking, "independent." This is insanity. He does not think, "Why I am independent? I am servant of my senses. I cannot remain, enjoying senses, for an hour, and I am thinking I am independent." That means insane. He cannot think properly. Where is his independence? Cannot be independent. He is born dependent because part and parcel of God. His constitutional position is dependent. Just like child. A child declares independence. What is the meaning of that independence? Danger. That's all. Simply inviting dangers. A child wants: "Oh, I don't care for my parents. I shall cross the road. I shall go everywhere." So if he is allowed to do that, that means he is simply inviting dangers. And if he remains under the protection of the parents, he is always safe. So this living entity's declaring independence means he is insane, different kinds of insanity. He cannot be independent. Let him think very deeply that it cannot be independent. He is thinking independent of God, but he is dependent on his sense pleasure. That's all. And some intoxication, a voluntarily accept dependence of something māyā. That's all. Who is independent. Is there anyone independent? Nobody is independent. To think of independence is māyā. Best thing is that "I am dependent, and let me remain dependent in properly. Then I am protected." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So your question is answered? Material consciousness means thinking falsely independent. That is material consciousness. Falsely. He is not independent, but he is thinking falsely, "I am independent." This is māyā. Just like in dream he is falsely thinking there is a tiger. There is no tiger, but he is actuated by this false impression, "Oh, tiger is eating me. It has attacked me. Save me." So this material existence means because he is insane, he is thinking there are so many problems, "The tiger is there. He is attacking me. This, that, so many enemies, friends...," creating so many things. But they are all false. But he is attacked by that false hallucination. That's all. This is māyā. Everyone is thinking, "Oh, there are so many problems I have to solve. I have to make this, that, this, so many." But he has no problem. He has no problem. His only problem is how to accept Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 11, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: Yes. And you'll forget everything. You'll be fully Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Allen Ginsberg: We have a farm also now in upstate New York. There we have vegetarian table also in the farm. We have a cow, goats. But...

Prabhupāda: From economic point of view, if one man has got a cow and four acres of land, he has no economic problem. That we want to start. He can independently live any part of the world. Simply he must (have) one cow and four acres of land. Let the people be divided with four acres of land and a cow, there will be no economic question. All the factories will be closed.

Allen Ginsberg: Four acres, you think?

Prabhupāda: Four acres.

Allen Ginsberg: Maybe.

Prabhupāda: That I am instructing Kīrtanānanda, to show this example in New Vrindaban.

Allen Ginsberg: Are you going to be able to do it on four acres?

Kīrtanānanda: I hope so.

Prabhupāda: Is it very difficult? Four acres of land per head?

Allen Ginsberg: I just this last night was in Minnesota, which is flat, very fertile, very rich land.

Prabhupāda: Where it is? Which province?

Allen Ginsberg: Minnesota. Midwest. Further west. Talking with a poet who also is a fellow sādhana, whose family is from that area for many generations, whose brother has a thousand acres of land, and he himself has 160 acres of land. And as farming is done now in America, apparently 160 acres is not enough to support a farm economically because farming is done now in such large scale with machines.

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 14, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Allen Ginsberg: As the material shadow. How did we fall into that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is very natural. Just like... (knock on door) Come on. Because jīva, although parā śaktī, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Kṛṣṇa... In the spiritual world Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, and all others, they are enjoyed. Predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, "The Lord is predominator. We have to serve." When this service attitude is impaired, that "Why serve Kṛṣṇa? Why not ourself?" that is māyā. Then he falls down in the material energy. There is no scope... Just like in the government system, there is no scope of freedom. You have to act according to government state laws. So long you are agreement, then you are free. If you disagree, then you are placed within the prison house. Similarly, jīva, independent, not fully independent, but they have got. Because part and part of God, therefore that independence quality is there. So when that independence quality is misused, then his place is in the material world. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāṅchā kare. When we forget Kṛṣṇa and try to lord it over something... And Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. When we try to imitate His lordship, then our place is in the material world. We are given freedom, "All right, you lord it over here." So here every living entity is trying to lord it over, competition. I am trying individualwise, nationwise. Everyone is trying to lord it over. That is material existence. And when he comes to his senses, jñānavān, that "I am falsely trying to lord it over. Rather, I am becoming implicated with material energy," when he comes to that, then he surrenders. Then again his liberated life begins. That is the whole process of spiritual life. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya māṁ ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Don't manufacture ways and means, falsely trying to lord it over. That will... You'll not be happy because you cannot lord it over the material nature. It is impossible. If we try to violate the government laws, is it possible for me? No. If I am to live as a citizen, it is not possible for me. Then I'll implicate more and more. This is crude example. Similarly, we are part and parcel of the Supreme.

Lord Caitanya Play Told to Tamala Krsna -- August 4, 1969, Los Angeles:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Wakim and Son?(?)

Prabhupāda: No, from elsewhere.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More mṛdaṅgas.

Prabhupāda: These boys, Acyutānanda, they do not write what they are doing, what they are not doing. I do not know whether they have made a plan to go away from the society and live independently.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like it is very difficult to go to India without you and still come back. It seems...

Prabhupāda: No. When we go to India I shall go with you. Yes. We must go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We can go to Jagannātha Purī?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere we shall go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So, what was the last thing? About the pot?

Govinda dāsī: "Mother, these pots are very, are pure."

Prabhupāda: He, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, taught that anything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, it is not impure. That was His purpose. "You should not treat these pots as impure. Ordinarily, when such pots are used for household purposes, that may be impure. But because in these pots prasādam were prepared, that is not impure."

Room Conversation -- September 24, 1969, London:

Prabhupāda: When the cause is there, they throw it, everything, and go away. Similarly, this material world, the activities of the material world is like that. Somewhere digging and somewhere piling. Somebody is independent and somebody is dependent. Somebody is very luxurious, somebody's starving. So there cannot be any adjustment. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). We are digging somewhere and piling somewhere; so digging is also labor, and piling is also labor. Then, after finishing, we have to quit everything, digging and piling. So why people do not come to their senses that "What we are doing? Are we utilizing our time properly or wasting our time?" What should be the answer? If I asked these karmīs, "Why you are digging? Why you are piling? And why you are leaving?" Then what will be the answer? (pause) Can you say what will be the answer?

Guest (1) (Indian man): When digging the pile?

Prabhupāda: You are digging somewhere, and again make constructing somewhere, and then, after a time, you are leaving both and going away, shifting for another activity. Because you'll not be allowed to stay...

Guest (1): The same place.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 21, 1970, Surat:

Revatinandana: Yes, (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That means the social structure is very bad. Otherwise, natural procedure is that everyone should be self-independent. But why state has to give them help? That's not good. You may be... Just like a son may be very rich man's son, but if the father provides him only, then he's a useless son. Is it not? If the father has to provide him money for his maintenance, then that son is useless son. That is not a good certificate. Although you may be very much proud that "I am maintaining my so many sons," why you should maintain? Let them be self-supported.

Yadubara: But what can the state do? Should the state just leave the people alone?

Prabhupāda: No. They should make the citizens so nicely developed in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness that they should be self-dependent, self-satisfied. That is the ideal of civilization.

Yadubara: But America is so far from that.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is not advancement, although they are very much proud of advancement. This is not sign of advancement. According to Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate: (Bg. 6.20-23) "If one is situated in such a position that even in the greatest, gravest type of dangerous position, he is not agitated, he is not agitated, that is the real happiness." Yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate. These are the words, yasmin sthite: "Situated in such a position that although he is facing greatest danger, he is not agitated." There is one instance. Not very long ago, say, about two hundred years ago there was a big zamindar. He was known as king in Krishnanagar.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- January 17, 1971, Allahabad:

Guest (2): No, no, I take tests for many time. I look at books and I take test for one year, twelve, fourteen hours.

Prabhupāda: That is the process. So how can you deny to understand the supreme science—you can do it independently? No, that is not possible. Therefore it is the verb, the form, gacchet. It is called vidhilinga. You know Sanskrit? Yes. This form of verb is... Perhaps you also know. Gacchet, kuryat, gadyat. These are vidhilinga. Vidhilinga means that is compulsory. Is it not?

Guest (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: He knows Sanskrit very well. Compulsory. Therefore it is said, gacchet-compulsory. Tad-vijñānārtham... Tat, the transcendental knowledge, vijñāna, that is science. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva niścayate (MU 1.2.12). Eva is niścayate. Eva means certainly. And again gacchet, "must go." Now, just like to be educated, one must be admitted in a school, must be. Now, what kind of school he has to select, that is another thing, but he must. That's a fact. Similarly, you have to accept a guru. Now, whom you will accept a guru, that is another thing. But you have to do it. That is the injunction of all śāstras. Vedic process is like that. This upanayana, the sacred thread, upanayana. Upa means near, and nayana means bringing. Anayanam, coming or going, like that, nayanam. So "to go near the spiritual master," upanayana.

Room Conversation -- January 17, 1971, Allahabad:

rabhupāda: No, no. Vijñāna is practical application.

Guest (3): When you apply jñāna and...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is vijñāna. So jñāna knowledge, first knowledge, is what is God, what is God and what is my relation with Him. This is knowledge. Then you... When you act according to that knowledge, that is vijñāna. That is bhakti. When you understand fully well that "God is great, and I am a small minute part and parcels of God," and then you understand that the part and parcel's duty is to serve the whole... Is it not? Just like the finger is part and parcel of my body. Its duty is to serve the whole body. Similarly, if we accept, if we understand, that "I am part and parcel of God; then my duty is to serve God." But people are being misled that he is thinking God himself. Although he is under so many restrictions and stricture of the material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāṇi guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). He is so foolish and rascal that he is thinking, "I am independent." Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā karta aham iti manyate. He is strictly under the stringent laws of material nature, but still, he is thinking falsely that "I am supreme. I am independent." So therefore surrender required, that "I am not supreme." That is knowledge. That is knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births of this speculation, when actually he becomes jñānavān, wise, then he surrenders." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). So unless we surrender, so long we think that "I am independent, I am God, I am Supreme," these are all illusions. What do you think?

Guest (2): Yes.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: Generally it seems to me that this old varṇāśrama system to some extent practiced the nature of division of labor in ancient society. So now division of labor among people in any society is much more complicated and sophisticated. So it would be very...

Prabhupāda: Not complicated.

Prof. Kotovsky: ...conditionally(?) to group them in four classes because...

Prabhupāda: The, the confusion, confusion has come into existence because in India in later days the son of a brāhmaṇa, without having the brahminical qualification, claimed to be brāhmaṇa, and others, out of superstition or traditional way, they were accepted as brāhmaṇa. Therefore the Indian social order has disrupted. But our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are picking up from everywhere brāhmaṇas, everywhere, because the world needs the brain of a brāhmaṇa. Just like here, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, although he was a monarch, he had a body of learned sages and brāhmaṇas to consult, advisory body. It is not that the monarchs were independent. In the history it is found that some of the monarchs were not in order. They were dethroned by the brahminical advisory committee. Although the brāhmaṇas, they did not take part in politics, but they would give advice to the monarch how to, I mean to say, execute the royal function. Just like not, not very old, very, say, about... What is the age of, I mean to say, Asoka? Say about thousands of years ago.

Darsana -- June 28, 1971, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Sannyāsī should be always preaching. Parivrājakācārya. Four stages of sannyāsa: kuṭīcaka, bahūdaka, parivrājaka, and paramahaṁsa. In the beginning... Because according to Vedic civilization everyone has to take sannyāsa at a certain age. So as a matter of routine if he takes sannyāsa... Just like this old man I was asking that "Now you have children grown up, why don't you take sannyāsa?" But he is hesitating. Nobody likes, because sannyāsa life is difficult. So first there is kuṭīcaka means he gives up the connection of the family life, takes sannyāsa officially, but he is not accustomed to maintain himself independently; therefore, he goes out of the village and makes a cottage and lives there. And the foodstuff, the home supply, that is called kuṭīca. Kuṭī means cottage. Then when he is little practiced, then he says family members that "Don't bring foodstuffs. I shall go to every village man and ask something for my food. I shall depend on them, not on you." That is called bahūdaka. Bahū means many. Not accepting food from one place but from many. Then when he is prac... Because first problem is problem, when he is practiced, "Now Kṛṣṇa is giving us food, so why shall I remain in one place? Let me preach." That is called parivrājakācārya, when he is preaching. Parivrājaka. Parivrājaka means wandering all over. Then when he is experienced, when his preaching is done, he can sit down in one place. At that time, he can chant simply Hare Kṛṣṇa like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. And if he imitates from the very beginning, he will be spoiled, that's all. Because in the beginning, if I take Hare Kṛṣṇa, then it is (indistinct). (laughter) Don't do this. Always be busy. First stage, last stage. When one is paramahaṁsa just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura, three hundred thousand times, no eating unless he finishes his chanting. No eating, no sleeping. That is another thing.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: Energy. So in that sense, if it is God's energy there is nothing material. It is material when we forget God. That is material.

Dr. Weir: Well I would have said... You're rather going back to the analogy of the light. If there's no light there you can't see whether there's anything there or not. Directly you have the light it enables you to see it. But the things exist independent of whether the light was there all along.

Prabhupāda: Light is in relationship with the fire. So light is not different from the fire. Unless there is fire there is no light. There is no heat. So as soon as you feel heat or see light the fire is there. In higher sense those who can realize immediately realize that there is fire. Just like here there's light. Immediately you can understand there is fire. There is electricity. So it is a question of realization. In the higher realization there is nothing matter. Everything is spiritual. Simply when you forget God that is material. That is material.

Śyāmasundara: By using this analogy he's proving that there's a contingency. There's a... that wherever there's heat and wherever there's light there must be fire.

Dr. Weir: With respect, no, because you can have an infra-red (indistinct) which is not fire.

Śyāmasundara: The original source is fire.

Dr. Weir: Or ultra-violet, no.

Prabhupāda: How can you explain light without fire?

Dr. Weir: Ultraviolet light doesn't have a fire.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- April 18, 1972, Hong Kong:

Guest (1): In the minds of some people the sudden attraction of Western youth to Eastern religions...

Prabhupāda: No. It is not Eastern. That is a wrong conception. God is for everybody. Eastern people, when I speak of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they say, "What is this Kṛṣṇa? We know Kṛṣṇa. What we have to learn from Swamiji?" "Familiarity breeds contempt." But in the Western countries when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, they see the philosophy. They see the science and become attracted. We, in the very beginning, we neglect: "Oh, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Otherwise there is no question of Western or Eastern. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Kṛṣṇa is neither Western, neither Eastern. But Eastern, our, especially Indians, they have learned to reject. That is their education: immediately reject it. This is their new culture, to reject everything. At least Jawaharlal Nehru began like that, "Anything Indian is bad. Everything London-made is good." That was his philosophy. And if one European would go to see him, immediately admission. And if an Indian goes to see him, three days he has to wait. So Jawaharlal made this impression, that "Everything Indian is bad, and anything made in London..." Because he was made in London. He was educated in London. So everything nice. Although in my household life I was doing some business in connection. I had to see Jawaharlal Nehru. So when he was common man, I went to his house. I saw it is completely Europeanized, although he is in khādi. So his father, he hated Indian medicine. You see? Motilal Nehru. A doctor, his family physician, he told me. I was doing medicine business. So I introduced one preparation, pulti(?). That was in a clay pot, anti-floristan(?) So doctor said personally, "If I prescribe your pul, jagal-pulti(?), that Motilal Nehru says, 'Doctor, in case of medicine, please do not prescribe Indian.' " You see? So this is our mentality. We have got all foreign mentality, but still, we are claiming that we have become independent. Not indepen... We are culturally conquered by the materialistic advancement of foreign countries. We have lost our own culture. This is our position.

Garden Conversation -- June 14, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: This is the feeling of separation. Such feeling everyone should... (aside:) Go on.

Devotee (1): "...from the poisonous water of the Yamunā, from the serpent Kāliya, from Bakāsura, from the anger of Indra and his torrents of rain, from forest fire and so many other things. You are the greatest and most powerful of all. It is wonderful that You have protected us from so many dangers. We are surprised You are neglecting us at this moment. Dear Kṛṣṇa, dear friend, we know very well that You are not actually the son of Mother Yaśodā or the cowherd man Nanda Mahārāja. You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the Supersoul of all living entities. You have, out of Your own causeless mercy, appeared in this world, requested by Lord Brahma for the protection of the world. It is by Your kindness only that You have appeared in the dynasty of Yadu. O best of the dynasty of Yadu, if anyone afraid of this materialistic way of life takes shelter of Your lotus feet, You never deny him protection. Your movements are sweet, and You are independent, touching the goddess of fortune with one hand and in the other bearing a lotus flower. That is Your extraordinary feature. Please, therefore, come before us and bless us with the lotus flower in Your hand. Dear Kṛṣṇa, You are the killer of all the fears of the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. You are the supremely powerful hero, and we know that You can kill the unnecessary pride of Your devotees, as well as the pride of women like us, simply by Your beautiful smile."

Prabhupāda: Unnecessary pride is very bad. "Oh, I have become very advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That we should never think.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Guest (2): What are your qualifications for a śūdra?

Prabhupāda: Śūdra is serving others. Get some salary and be satisfied. That's all. He has no more culture. That is śūdra. He cannot live independently. Anyone who serves others for his livelihood, he's a śūdra. A brāhmaṇa never serves anyone, a kṣatriya never serves anyone, a vaiśya never serves anyone. A śūdra... Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). They want some service: "Give me some money, sir. I am helpless." "All right, you work like this." That is śūdra.

Guest (2): So in other words, all dependent employees, they're all śūdras.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the statement of the śāstra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra."

Guest (2): So only those who have independent means, then, would come in the...

Prabhupāda: They can be counted, yes. Because a brāhmaṇa is advised not to accept service at any circumstances. That is the injunction of the śāstra. He can take the profession of a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, but not the śūdra. That is brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): So whoever cannot stand on his own legs as an independent businessman or landlord or whatever it be, he's a śūdra.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. I have not manufactured these things. These are śāstra, that "He's brāhmaṇa,"—the qualification. "He's kṣatriya,"—qualification. "He's vaiśya,"—qualification. "He's śūdra—by qualification." And Nārada Muni says, but we have to judge by the qualification. Yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet: (SB 7.11.35) "These are the qualities of different caste. If it is found in other place, you should designate him according to the quality." Just like a man born of a brāhmaṇa family, but if he has got the śūdra qualities, then he should be śūdra. And a man born of a śūdra family, if he has got the qualities of brāhmaṇa, then he must be designated as brāhmaṇa.

Morning Walk Conversation -- September 28, 1972, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, it doesn't, because they want to study. For example, the brain of the advanced scientist, they want to study how his brain is different from ordinary people. So they can do some studies, research, on different bodies, parts of the bodies, just to differentiate why this body is different from the so many bodies.

Prabhupāda: There is differentiation. That's a fact. Differentiation, that is visible because (indistinct) more nicely than me, you must have more brain. But the brain is not acting independently. That they do not know. They take brain, they are going to study—that is another foolishness, another rascaldom. Still they are passing on as scientists. Just like ordinary machine and a complicated machine. The machine has to be worked by somebody. Not that because it is highly developed valuable machine it works automatically. This simple thing these rascals they do not understand. You may have got a very big nice machine, I may not have. But either good machine or bad machine, it must be worked by you or by me. Where is that me and you? And they are trying to understand the machine itself only. Such rascaldom.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 26, 1973, Jakarta:

est (2): This what it is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find this verse. (Aside:) Find out. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. This is the śānti, prosperity. They are... Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme Enjoyer. I am the sole proprietor of everything." Sarva-loka-maheśvaram. Sarva-loka, not only of this planet, but other planets also. Loka. Loka means planet, sarva-lokam. So bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. "I am the best, I mean to say, well-wisher friend of everyone." Jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati. If one understands these three things only, that God is the Supreme Enjoyer. We are not enjoyer. But God is Enjoyer. That God is the Proprietor of everything. Not we are proprietor. We are subordinate. In the Vedas also, it is stated, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). The description of God is like that He's eternal amongst the eternals. We are also eternal, the living entities. And God is also eternal. Nityo nityānāṁ... cetana, He's the vital living force among all living forces. We are all living forces and He's the chief living force. Then what is the distinction between this singular number, nitya, and the plural number, nityas? The distinction is that that singular number, nitya, is maintaining this plural number, nityas. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. That is the distinction. Otherwise God is also a living entity like us, like one of us. But he's the chief. Just like father and children. Father is the chief man in the family and he's providing all necessities to life for the children, for the wife (indistinct). Although the father is also living entity and the children are also living entities, but the father is providing the children, and the children are being provided by the father. So this is the understanding. Unless we understand this, there cannot be any peace. That is the Vedic version. Anyone who understands this, he gets peace. Otherwise there's no possibility of peace. If I think that I am the proprietor, if I think that I am the enjoyer, or, in other words, I am God, then you'll never get peace. That is not possible. That is a false. If one of the children thinks that I am the independent, then naturally father will say, "All right, if you're independent, do your own business." This is an example. So if you want peace then, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, you have to learn these three things. It is not very difficult. To accept God as the Supreme Enjoyer, and God as the sole proprietor of everything, and He's the best friend of everyone. Then you have peace. Anyone can appreciate this. Anyone can adopt this principle and he'll be in peace. And so long one will falsely think that "I am God. I am enjoyer, I am this, I am that." Then he'll suffer. False notion will never make him happy. He must come to the true, factual idea. Now you can examine that Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the Supreme Enjoyer." Now let us understand this one fact, how Kṛṣṇa's the enjoyer. Now suppose here is some banana fruits. Who has created this banana fruit? You are not manufacturer, I am not manufacturer. Somebody has created. We accept God has created and that's a fact. Then who should be the enjoyer? I shall be enjoyer or God shall be enjoyer? Anything you create, you become the enjoyer. Anything I create, I become the enjoyer. So if God has created this banana fruit, then who should be enjoyer? God or I?

Guest (2): God.

Room Conversation -- February 28, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: This is a cap, with this Japanese (indistinct)?

Guest (1): No, sir. National congress, national India. This is a (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Gandhi cap.

Devotee: Indian National Congress.

Guest (1): Indian National Congress Party, independent (indistinct) national pact with Indonesia ... hot.

Devotee: The Muslims wear the black one and he says it is very hot but this is cool.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): ...nearly bald head, I cover with this...

Prabhupāda: Nowadays gradually, everyone is giving up cap. First of all, only the Bengalis were the capless nation. Now gradually, it has spread all over the world. Nobody uses hats or cap.

Guest (1): We like the cover cap.

Guest (2): You don't shave?

Guest (1): You don't shave more (indistinct) only shaving clean shave only (indistinct)

Devotee: You are asking me?

Guest (1): Yes.

Devotee: Yes. About every two weeks.

Guest (1): Every two weeks. What mean this symbol?

Prabhupāda: Flag. It is flag.

Morning Walk -- April 19, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: There is such proposition that He should exist, He should not exist. Then there must be some authority to give such order. That is answered in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says: mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10), "Under My superintendence, nature is working." Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He also says that the species are not created independently. They say it is descended from, one after another.

Prabhupāda: So, if there is no question of independence, then how, abruptly, he can begin from a certain species? You must explain wherefrom this species came into existence. Harer nāma harer nāma...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are so many books on Darwin's theory. Goes... In the library, if one goes there are hundreds of volumes of books on Darwin's theory.

Prabhupāda: They have accepted or protested?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mostly they accept and there are some who are also very critical, what they're, what he's saying is really (indistinct) But those are very few. Mostly, most books are supporting.

Karandhara: Recently, there was an issue that some people wanted that the theory that God created the earth and the species to be taught in schools along with Darwin's theory.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- April 28, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...inferior and the superior.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That they're actually seeing every day.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Handling every day. Still they'll not. Dog's obstinacy. That's all. They're seeing practically, that the material energy cannot work independently unless the spiritual energy joins. So how they can expect the whole cosmic manifestation, which is matter only, has come out automatically? We are practically seeing, a very nice car, Cadillac. But if there is no driver, what is the use of that car? A computer machine. Unless the man knows how to work it, pushes the button, it does not work. So practically we are seeing that without superior energy, the material energy does not act. Still they'll not believe it. Therefore in this wonderful cosmic manifestation, there must be handling of a superior energy. And that they do not know. They are amazed with this material arrangement. Just like a foolish person is amazed by seeing the mechanical, big machine. So many parts. But another person knows that, however wonderful machine it may be, unless the operator comes and pushes the button, it will not work. This is intelligence. Therefore who is important? The operator or the machine? So we are concerned with the operator, Kṛṣṇa, not with the machine. If you say: "How do you know that He's the operator?" He says: mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My superintendence, the whole cosmic manifestation is working." The difference is you don't believe. I believe. That's all. I take it immediately: "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is operating." Therefore I have no problem. Somebody's operating, that you have to accept. But you do not know who is that person. At least, we have got knowledge, here is the person. That's all. Now if you say: "No, Kṛṣṇa is not the person," then you have to accept another person. So present him, that "Here is the person, not Kṛṣṇa. Another..." That you cannot. So in the absence of your knowledge, you have to accept my proposal. (break) Can you create a stem like this in your laboratory?

Morning Walk -- May 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are existing simultaneously or living entity creates.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without nails how can I exist? Without skin, how can I exist? My existence means everything—my skin, my hair, my nails, my legs, my hands, everything.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So one is dependent on the other? Or the spirit is independent of matter?

Prabhupāda: The spirit is independent. Just like I am existing. That is life. And there are other limbs of the body. I can live even without limbs of my body, but I cannot live without life. If I have no hands, no legs, still I live. So therefore I am not dependent on hands and legs. My hands and legs are dependent on me. (pause) Is it not better to walk little, then sit down, compact room?

Karandhara: Oh yes, it's necessary to walk a little.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Just get my cloth. Where it is? Missing? No, no, no. Harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21). Our theory is sound. The rascal's theory is not sound. Ours is not theory; it is fact. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: "From Me everything emanates." Vedānta-sūtra says, janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) The Absolute Truth is that from where everything comes." But everything we see, life and matter. This is everything. What we see in this world? Life and matter. Is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Room Conversation -- July 9, 1973, London:

Revatīnandana: Haribol. Little by little it's becoming clear.

Prabhupāda: Sthāvara, sthāvara means one cannot move, standing. Sthāvara-jaṅgama. There are two kinds of living entities. One moving, one not moving.

Yogeśvara: But the atom is always in motion. The atoms and molecules are always constantly moving.

Prabhupāda: That movement is different. That is not independent movement.

Yogeśvara: Is that to say that a stone has a living entity in it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Actually what we discussed is that every, even the elements, the atoms, everything is made of nothing but spirit souls in fallen conditions. Because everything comes from brahma-jyotir, which is nothing but spirit souls, and brahma-jyotir... Therefore soul never changes. So this manifestation is from brahma-jyotir. Therefore, it is made of souls. It is nothing else but spirit souls. Yesterday, a few days ago we discussed that.

Prabhupāda: It is simply covered by another energy which is called material energy. And that is māyā. Māyā means that is not actual, not factual. The example is given, just like the sun is covered by the cloud. The cloud is nothing but another creation of sun. But when the cloud comes, sun is invisible. Similarly this condition, forgetfulness, is my creation and when I am covered by this forgetfulness I become stones and atoms, like that.

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That suspicion will continue unless you take the right process.

Mr. Wadell: But there are, I do not think that this God gave me my mind with my eyes and my sight, hearing, all these factors of the senses, and the intellect and the soul, if we are correctly speaking when we speak of it as something independently existing...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Mr. Wadell: He did not expect me, I'm sure, not... to reject questions. In my religion, my, must be just as much a part of me as all that my intellect tells me. There must be no question which my religion cannot stand up to.

Prabhupāda: First of all you say that God has given you the intellect. He can withdraw it also.

Mr. Wadell: Well, we say not, because...

Prabhupāda: Why not? If He has given, He can withdraw also.

Mr. Wadell: Oh, I don't... Well, we have a rather strange view of God...

Prabhupāda: No, you may have strange view. We are arguing. As soon as you say God has given you intellect, He can withdraw also your intellect.

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Mr. Wadell: This is the point which you were trying to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā God says that "You surrender unto Me." That means, "If you like, you surrender." God is not forcing, "you must." He is not forcing.

Mr. Wadell: Well, that's exactly what I meant. We are agreed. And...

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that He does not do. Otherwise, otherwise, there is no meaning of being part and parcel of God. God is fully independent, and we are minute part of God. Therefore we have got independence. That independence is minute, but there is. So if God interferes with your independence, then you are no longer part and parcel of God. Therefore God says that "You do this." Now, I misuse my independence. I do not do it. Therefore I am bad.

Mr. Wadell: Our positions do not differ on this point. We think exactly the same.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We do not do it. Just like your father says, "My dear son, do like this," but you disobey. Therefore you are bad son. So my badness is creation of my misuse of independence.

Mr. Wadell: Yes. But it may not be entirely willful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God has given you the intelligence, and as I said, He can withdraw. Just like the same thing: The father said, "My dear son, do like this." But he is persisting in doing otherwise.

Mr. Wadell: Yes, and for the same reason that He would not force, would therefore, for the same reason, not withdraw my intellect, having given it to me.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stated, that is stated, that is stated. Just like I... Withdraw my intellect means I have given you the intellect that "You do like this." but you are persistent, doing otherwise, "All right, as you like, you do." This is withdrawal.

Room Conversation with Guest -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest: Jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7).

Prabhupāda: So why other jīvas should be left aside? Why they should not understand Kṛṣṇa. And actually, they are understanding Kṛṣṇa better than many Indians. They have taken very seriously. They do not put any competitor of Kṛṣṇa. Our Hindus, they put forward so many competitors of Kṛṣṇa: "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be God? I have got my own God." Especially after the preaching of this Vivekananda, that "You can create your own God," it has become very simple business to create one God.

Guest: Well, then, that time, when Swami Vivekananda went to America, the country was not independent, not liberated. So at that time...

Prabhupāda: Who?

Guest: Swami Vivekananda, at that time...

Prabhupāda: No, who was not liberated?

Guest: This country of India. India was not liberated. So...

Prabhupāda: So what was the connection with liberation?

Guest: Ne. Because at that time there's some proud of nation and some proud of culture. He wanted to...

Prabhupāda: No, I don't think in America there was such conception. America had nothing to do with the British ruling. Rather, they declared independence from British rule.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Haṁsadūta: Connecticut

Prabhupāda: No, no. Staten Island?

Haṁsadūta: Staten Island.

Prabhupāda: Crossing by ferry, one hour. Then waiting for bus, another hour. Then going to the office. Then after office, they're coming back. Again going. Whole day, they're dependent on everything. That is the condition in New York. It is to be supposed: the most advanced city. The same thing is everywhere. People are becoming dependent, śūdra, just like dogs. A dog, unless he gets a nice master, he's not happy. So at the present moment, all the population, just like the cats and dogs, they're dependent. They are not intelligent. Intelligence means he must be independent. That is intelligence. And people are struggling for independence. That is their motive. Everyone is struggling hard for independence. Because that is the culmination of intelligence. So our problem is that we do not know what we are. Neither we know how to get out of the miserable condition of life. Therefore we have no intelligence. We are like cats and dogs. This is the conclusion. What do you think? Am I right or wrong?

Guest (1): I couldn't follow you.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest (1): I haven't followed you.

Prabhupāda: No, what is your opinion, my description of intelligence and not, no intelligence?

Guest (1): I think you're right.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. (laughter)

Guest (1): But you know, my thoughts must be really not worth very much.

Prabhupāda: But we can give intelligence by which he can become independent. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Guest (1): How can we in a money-orientated world?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Haṁsadūta: How can we become intelligent or independent?

Guest (1): In a money-orientated world?

Prabhupāda: Well, money you can get. That money does not mean independence.

Guest (1): No, I know.

Prabhupāda: They are, while working, they're getting money, but they're not independent.

Guest (1): No, I understand that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So without money, if you become independent, that is intelligence.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Father Tanner: Where did we lose the contact with God?

Prabhupāda: When you misused your freedom. You have got little freedom.

Father Tanner: But at what point did I... No. Or, a child lose its contact with its Creator?

Prabhupāda: It is said... Suppose I am serving my master. I can think of, "Oh, why shall I serve him? I shall become independent." That is my freedom, little freedom. So I cannot become independent. That is not my healthy stage. Just like... Take for example, a dog. A dog is healthy when he has got a good master. And if he hasn't got a good master, he's a street dog, neglected. He's not healthy. Similarly our position is like that, that we must be dependent on God. Therefore in your Christian Bible also you go for your bread: "God, give us our daily bread." So you are dependent. So it is better to remain dependent on God than to use your so-called little freedom.

Father Tanner: But your dog can be healthy in two ways, can't he? The dog can be healthy... ,

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is an example.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Father Tanner: If your dog is just running free in its natural state, he is a healthy animal, but...

Prabhupāda: No, a dog is not healthy. I am giving that particular example. Then he's a street dog. A street dog has no position. He's not healthy. I am giving a crude example, that a dog's posit... Similarly, we are all dependent on God. That is in your Bible also.

Father Tanner: Oh, yes, I accept.

Prabhupāda: So to remain dependent on God is our healthy state. As soon as we declare independent of God, that is our unhealthy state. This is our philosophy. And your philosophy also. To remain there. That is the Vedic injunction, that nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). What is the difference between God and ourself? God is also a living entity like us, but He's the chief living entity. He's maintaining all others. Therefore we have to ask God, "Give us our daily bread." He's the maintainer; we are maintained. Just like in a family, the father is the maintainer, and the mother and the children and the servants, they are maintained, similarly the whole universe, whole creation, it is maintained by God, and we living entities, within this universe or within this creation, we are maintained. So as we are maintained, it is better to remain dependent on God than to declare our freedom.

Room Conversation with Two Buddhist Monks -- July 12, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: At least, you follow the leadership of Buddha.

Buddhist Monk (1): Leadership, that's correct.

Prabhupāda: So that is, I am pointing out. Leadership,... God means "the leader." According to Vedic injunction, God means "the supreme leader." Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief living entity. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). God means the Supreme Leader. So leader you have to accept. That is the conception of God. Either you select Buddha or Lenin or somebody else, you have to accept one leader and follow. That is your business. So our philosophy is that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, He's the Supreme Leader. And we are to obey His orders. This is our philosophy. So if you do not obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa, if you obey the orders of Lord Buddha, or somebody obeys the orders of Lenin, the principle is there that you have to follow the orders of somebody. Now, you select Lenin, Kṛṣṇa or Buddha or Gandhi or anyone. That is a different thing. But the principle—to accept one leader and follow his leadership—is there everywhere. That nobody can change. That is not possible. So the professor could not give me any satisfactory answer, you see. The leadership you have to accept. You cannot do anything independently. You have to accept. That is our constitutional position, that we have to follow somebody. Now you select whom you shall follow. If you are following the most perfect, then you become perfect. And if you are following less perfect or imperfect, then you are imperfect. This is our philosophy. You have to follow some leader. If your leader is perfect, then you are perfect. If your leader is not perfect, then you are also not perfect.

Room Conversation with Sir Alistair Hardy -- July 21, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Why not the "divine person?" Wherefrom flame comes?

Revatīnandana: He says, now how to find out the Divine Person from whom the flame comes? Just like you were talking about how God is a manifestation of power, in your statement. But the manifestation of power we always find in relation with a source of power. Just like the sunlight is a manifestation of the power, and this great power of the sunlight, they're tapping it for electricity and so many things now, but that sunlight is not an independent entity. It's dependent on the source.

Prabhupāda: And Veda also, points out, yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante. So your New York going is suspended now?

Mukunda: No, I'm still going.

Prabhupāda: When you are going?

Mukunda: As soon as possible. (pause) (break)

Prabhupāda: Then talk of all this moral instruction. If you are killing yourself, then why do you object? Why? (break) ...ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā.

Revatīnandana: Caitanya-caritāmṛta?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Balance, this is balance. Let us... You, you take some students and train them as medical man. But I am training to become preachers. Why you interfere with my business? You do your own business.

Mother: Well, my son is my business.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So your son, your son is not dependent on you. He's independent.

Mother: Yes, but he was...

Prabhupāda: You want independence. He's already independent of you.

Mother: He was snatched out of the university by your people going round the universities. He was in university.

Prabhupāda: But... That's all right. If some of our student goes to the university... There are many students...

Revatīnandana: Now wait a minute. We didn't snatch Michael.

Prabhupāda: We don't object to that.

Revatīnandana: Michael came to the temple in London, sat down, and didn't want to go away.

Mother: He'd been taking LSD, and he was very sick. And somebody took him in.

Prabhupāda: So,... So when he was taking LSD, what did you do for him?

Revatīnandana: Why was he taking LSD? He had wonderful education, happy home, so many things.

Mother: Well, he was experimenting. Now this is it...

Revatīnandana: So LSD is acknowledged a dangerous thing to experiment with.

Prabhupāda: You like that? You like that?

Mother: Well, he had a false... This was not...

Prabhupāda: When he was taking LSD, did you like that?

Mother: I didn't know, did I?

Prabhupāda: Then?

Mother: Until afterwards, and we found him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Anna Conan Doyle, daughter-in-law of famous author, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: He's the controller of the whole universe. He also bowing down before little Kṛṣṇa. "Sir, I wanted to show You my superior power, but I am insignificant before You." Brahmā stole away all His calves and cows and cowherd boys, and he saw again the same calves and cows and boys are playing with Him. So he became surprised: "How is that? I took away, and again He's keeping. He has expanded himself." You have read that portion? So God is called self-sufficient because He can expand Himself to satisfy His needs, whatever He wants. So He doesn't require anyone's help. He's completely independent. But still He's so kind that He comes to your temple, as He has come today, and He's dependent. If you give Him some foodstuff, He'll eat. Otherwise, He'll starve. So we should always remember the most powerful, self-sufficient has come kindly at my place, just to become dependent on my foodstuff. This is His kindness. And if we think: "Oh, I am giving food to Kṛṣṇa. What is Kṛṣṇa?" Then you are finished. You have to think always that He is self-sufficient. But He's so kind, in spite of His being self-sufficient, He invites my, He accepts my invitation, and He has come. We have to treat in that way.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Yogeśvara: God has created everyone equal. God has created all His children as equal spiritual beings. So why is it that, that one person is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, and I have no interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That means we're not equal, there's some flaw in God's creation.

Prabhupāda: No, that is your flaw. That is your flaw. God says that: "You simply surrender unto Me." But does it mean that everyone is surrendering to God?

Yogeśvara: No. Then they're not equal.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: Then God's creations are not...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That, that... Suppose I have got ten sons or so many disciples. I say that: "You do this." Somebody may not do it. That independence everyone has got. So after being so-called independent, when he does not do, according to the instruction of God, he becomes different. God has created everyone equally, but when he disobeys the order of God, then he becomes different. Where is the flaw in this statement? I say everyone of my students that: "Don't do this." But if somebody does it, then he becomes different.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Yogeśvara: Then why has He given us independence if...

Prabhupāda: Yes, He must give because we, He, He has got...

Yogeśvara: ...if we misuse it?

Prabhupāda: He has got, He's the Supreme Independent, and living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore you must have independence. Otherwise, how he becomes perfect part and parcel?

Guru-gaurāṅga: And if he did not have independence, that would be the flaw.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be the fault.

Bhagavān: That makes everything complete.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Independence means that you can do or not do. That is independence.

Bhagavān: Their definition of perfect is wrong. Just like this boy's definition of a poet.

Prabhupāda: He's a rascal. He's simply bogus. He's trying to... There are so many parties like that. They're four or five, they make a group and imitate these Beatles. As if... Beatles have made money. They'll also make money. That is the... And speak all nonsense. That's all. These are crazy fellows. So independence means that you can do or not do. Just like you, as a nation, American nation, or English nation, you are all independent. But why you go to the jail? Is it government's fault that you go to the jail? Therefore government has fault? Why this nonsense question. When a man, instead of going to the university, goes to the police custody, is it government's fault? Is it?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Guru-gaurāṅga: So the rascal thinks that independence, the manifestation, the symptom of independence is to misuse independence.

Prabhupāda: What?

Guru-gaurāṅga: He thinks the symptom... I am independent. I will show you I am independent. I will misuse my independence.

Prabhupāda: No. There's... Just like you are a citizen of French government. You are also independent. If the government says that if you do this, then you'll be punished. So when you do that, that is misuse of independence. Otherwise you are independent.

Guru-gaurāṅga: So real independence means to surrender then.

Prabhupāda: Yes. To authority. Because you have to surrender. If you don't surrender to God, then you have to surrender to māyā. Just like you don't surrender to government, then you have to surrender to the superintendent of jail. That's all. If you misuse your independence, you'll not be happy. This is the fact. But you have got the independence. You can misuse it. That is your prerogative. That is your freedom. Freedom means you must have independence. But because you are not absolutely independent, so you suffer. The Absolute Independent is God, Kṛṣṇa. Just like government. The government orders: let this crowd be shot. Let there be bullet shot. Hundreds of men die. But government is not responsible for such death. But if you kill one man, you'll be responsible. So your independence is subordinate independence. Similarly, all living entities, they have been given independence by God, but his independence is subordinate to the independence of God. This is our position, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109).

Room Conversation with Graham Hill Former World Champion Race Car Driver -- London, August 26, 1973:

Prabhupāda: That is ultimate goal. So long we do not go back to home, back to Godhead, we have to, in our material existence, we have to change from one body to another. That is going on. And there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies. The cats and dogs, they are also living entities, but they have got a different type of body. Every one of us, different type body. Even they are children, their body is different from your body. Even the (indistinct). Although their body is obtained, there are some similarities. But if you analyze very scrutinizingly there will be some difference from your body, from your daughter's body, from your boy's body. So every body, every living entity is getting a certain type of body according to his desire. According to his desire. So that desire means material enjoyment. Just like you have got certain desire to become champion in racing. Another body has got desire to become something else. Another body has got desire for something else. So we have got this freedom by the grace of God or Kṛṣṇa. Because we are children. He has given freedom. "All right, if you want this, take it." In this way our life is going on. This is called birth and death. One chapter you are finishing in one life, next chapter begins another life. Next chapter begins another life. So the problem is birth and death. But nobody wants birth and death. Nobody wants. But it is there on account of our material life. So in material life there are four problems: birth, death, old age, and disease. So long one has to accept a material body, he has to accept these miseries also. Birth is also misery. When the child remains within the womb, in a compact bag... Very precarious condition. We have forgotten, but it is very precarious condition. And for ten months, because he is unconscious at least for seven months he cannot understand. But after seven months when the child becomes conscious, it is very intolerable. He always prays, "Oh, how to get out, how to get out." Then he gets, come out, comes out. Then another life begins. That is also accompanied with so many miserable conditions from the birth. Just like, don't mind, when you drive your car, it is not a very good position. (laughter) Yes. But you are taking that risk for winning over. But the position is not very good. At any moment there can be accident. So similarly, we are trying to achieve some goal of life, every one of us—there are so many varieties of living entities—with the risk of life and death, old age and disease. But if we know what is our actual aim of life... The actual aim of life should be back to home, back to Godhead. Then this human form of life is successful. Just like your son. If he goes out independent. Now he is under father's protection, he is very happy. But if he declares his independence... Just like Śyāmasundara. He is very rich man's son. His father, I met him. His father is a big lawyer, big businessman. But he declared independence. And I know his life history, how much he had to go through so many tribulations. Similarly, we are also sons of God. We have declared independence and we are going through so many chapters of life and death in different... Now we have got... Suppose you have got now a nice Englishman's body but next body you do not know what kind of body you are going to get. That will depend on your karma and desire.

Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: That also kāmān. Whatever benediction they get, that is sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa. They cannot give it independently. You can keep it here. These six volumes are already published.

Ambassador: Oh, I see, Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: But, uh, no, this is Bhāgavatam.

Ambassador: Śrī Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Similar, another fifty-four volumes is to be published.

Ambassador: Oh, it's a tremendous undertaking.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes.

Ambassador: Whatever might be the difference of opinion about the, you know, the subtleties, you see, this itself is very great.

Prabhupāda: And we have given each meaning of... You can see the Sanskrit verse, how we have explained. Here and in America especially, as soon as they see, they purchase the whole set. Six copies. See.

Ambassador: Beautiful. Very, very elegant English also. (Reads Sanskrit verse:) Brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam avyalīka-vratādṛtaḥ. And then you, you make it easy. Actually, it's...

Prabhupāda: Transliteration also.

Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist -- September 10, 1973, Stockholm:

Dr. Hauser: Infinity.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Bhāgavata verse, janmādy asya (SB 1.1.1), asya janmādi (indistinct) concise word but volumes of meanings. Volumes. Each word is like that. Vidyā bhāgavata-vali(?). Therefore one's learning is complete when he reads Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Otherwise he remains imperfect, in spite of all learning. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), from where? Now the creation of this cosmic world, from where? But you do not know from where. This is explained in Bhāgavatam. Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. That is actually true. In this way simply if you analyze one verse, you'll find each word is full of volumes of meaning. Janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayāt (SB 1.1.1). Like the creation, anvayāt, directly and indirectly, itarataś cārtheṣu, in the matter of understanding, abhijñaḥ. Abhijñaḥ means completely cognizant. That is the Absolute Truth. He knows everything—how this universe is created, how it is maintained, how it annihilated, directly and indirectly. Just like, I always, regular, everyday thing, when I am massaged by my student, I see so many veins so I think that I claim, "This is my leg," but I do not know what are these veins. Directly I know this is my leg, but indirectly I do not know how this leg is working with these veins and nerves and muscles. I do not know. But so far God is concerned, He has created. He knows every veins and everything. That is called abhijñaḥ. In this way you analyze every word, you'll find volumes of meaning. The next question, "Where you got this experience?" You say He's abhijñaḥ, He knows everything. To get experience one must have teacher. But the next word is svarāṭ, He's experienced and self-sufficiency, svarāṭ, independent. He hasn't got to go anywhere for experiencing. In this way each word is full of meaning. Janmādy asya yataḥ, anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ, tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1). We have very shortly described this one verse. I think five, six pages. You've got that verse?

Śrutakīrti: Yes. Right here. (showing book to the psychiatrist) Here's the translation, the verse.

Prabhupāda: That is very short description.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Śrutakīrti: Na śocati na kāṅkṣati.

Prabhupāda: Śocati means in everything he laments. "Hai hai, I have lost so much things, I have not these things, I have not that thing." So at the present moment, all the people, they are so dissatisfied that they are all śūdras. Śūdra is always in want. So who is not, at the present moment, not in want? Everybody's in want. Therefore everybody is a śūdra now. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. And that is his qualification, always feeling in want, śocati. And his work is to serve others, master. A brāhmaṇa will not work under anybody. A kṣatriya will not work under anybody. Nowadays the industrial development has taken place because people are śūdras. They want some service. So-called technologists and laborers, and everything. Everyone is searching after good job. He cannot live independently, just like a dog. A dog cannot live independently. He must have a master. Then he is happy. Is it not? Otherwise it is street dog. So modern education is that they are creating śūdras, to become dependent on others. And therefore modern economic development is taking place because there are so many people, they are prepared to give them service. Suppose in your bank, if you withdraw from the service, the bank will stop. Industry will stop. So because there is no such division as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Everyone is śūdra. Therefore this economic development, so-called economic development, has become possible. But in spite of all this economic development, because people are śūdras, they cannot be happy. Because śocati, they will lament, strike. Even they are getting thousands of rupees, strike. Even they get five hundred thousands of rupees, still there will be strike. Because they are śūdras.

Morning Walk -- December 9, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: There is no trust without obedience.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. There is no... There is no question of trust. Yes. That is, that is the first requirement in the Bhagavad-gītā. "You surrender unto Me." That means: "You trust." I cannot surrender unto you if I do not trust you. That is trust. I don't believe you; how can I trust you? Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is full trust. "Yes, I must surrender to Kṛṣṇa. He, He..." Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings,

mānasa deha geha jo kichu mora
arpilūṅ tuwā pade nanda-kiśora

Nanda-kiśora, Kṛṣṇa, now I fully surrender unto You. And what I have got? I have got my mind, I have got my body, and I have got my family. So everything I surrender unto You. Deha, geha everything." This is our possession. Otherwise... I cannot say, "I possess this universe." But I can say, "I possess this body. I have got some mind. And I have got some little family. So everything I surrender unto You." Mānasa deha geha jo kichu..., arpilūṅ tuwā pade nanda-kiśora. Now what kind of surrender? Mārobi rākhobi, jo icchā tohārā. "Now I have surrendered. If you want, you can kill me. And if You want, You can keep me." This is surrender. This is trust. "If You like, you can kill me. And if You like, you can save me." Jo icchā tohārā. "That depends on Your free will because You are completely independent." This is surrender. This is trust. Then activities begins. Then he will act according to the order of Kṛṣṇa. When he has surrendered, he'll do as Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Just like our students are doing. They have surrendered unto me. I am dictating, "You do this. You worship like this." They are doing. This is surrender. They are doing. "You chant like this You live like this. You worship like this." This is surrender. So, without any consideration, whether this chanting... Of course, there must be consideration. Otherwise, how they are doing? But this obedience is there. That is called surrender. Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. Where to go?

Devotee: This way.

Morning Walk -- December 9, 1973, Los Angeles:

Devotee: This way.

Prabhupāda: Nitya-dāsa prati tuwā adhikārā. Just like slaves. Sometimes the master used to kill. In this country?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is not very good. Therefore these, they became independent now. But actually, slave means that. If the master likes... What is that light? Some ship?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Karandhara: I think that's an oil well.

Prabhupāda: Oh, oil drilling. So you are theologician. You start this movement, plus our Hare Kṛṣṇa party. And leaders, the propaganda should be that the, at least the priests, who are conducting religious activities, they, the priests and the leaders and the administrators, they must be sinless. Or... Sinless means they should not indulge in these four prohibited principles. Others may do. But the leaders, the political executive, administrators, and the priests who are conducting the church, they must be free from sinful life. Otherwise, there is no question of peace in the society.

Room Conversation with Latin Professor -- December 9, 1973, Los Angeles:

Professor: I have no answer.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, our speculative knowledge, intellectual platform, is not helpful. We must receive knowledge from superior source, perfect source. That knowledge is perfect. Just like we give, generally this example, that to find out who is my father, my search out, research, will not help me, but if my mother says, "Here is your father," that is perfect knowledge because she's authority. Therefore, for perfect knowledge, we have to take it from the perfect authority, not by our speculative intellectual gymnasium. No, that will not help. Because our intellectual jurisdiction is very limited. That is Vedic process. Vedic process is not to acquire knowledge by ascending process, inductive process. Vedic knowledge is to receive knowledge by descending process, knowledge coming from authority. That, that you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā, Fourth Chapter: evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Knowledge has to be received... Just like a child receives knowledge... He is inquisitive: "Mother, what is this? Father, what is this?" And mother informs him, "My dear child, this is is. This is this." So he is acquiring knowledge by descending process. And if the child wants to get knowledge independently, that is not knowledge. He'll touch the fire. Mother: "Don't touch, don't touch, my dear child!" But he does not know. He's thinking the fire as something eatable. So by the Vedic process, this experimental knowledge is no useful. Yes. The Vedic injunction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) "In order to receive perfect knowledge, you must have approach the guru." Guru means who has the perfect knowledge. So you cannot independently get perfect knowledge, intellectual. That will remain always imperfect. So intellectually, how you can conceive about God, who is unlimited, beyond your sense perception? We cannot know even ordinary material things, how great the sun is, how this universe is. We have imperfect knowledge. So our process is to receive knowledge from the perfect. Therefore, we are receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect. I am not perfect, but because I am receiving knowledge from the supreme perfect, therefore whatever I say, it is perfect. And that is guru. Guru does not say anything of his own manufacture or research. He says only what he has heard from the Supreme. That's all.

Morning Walk -- December 10, 1973, Los Angeles:

Sudāmā: In Japan, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a cherry tree that usually in the springtime it gives off flowers. So about three, two years ago, in the middle of winter, this tree gave off all flowers. All the scientists, everyone was running. "It is not time. It is not time. It is not the season. Why is it giving the flowers?"

Prabhupāda: Therefore the best education, scientific advancement, is to recognize God behind everything. That is perfection. We are canvassing, "Accept God, accept God." But if the modern scientist, philosopher, they present, "Yes, here is God," by calculation, then people will take it more seriously. "Oh, the scientist is saying." That is wanted. We are fighting with the scientists and others because they do not accept God. That is their fault. Otherwise, they are friends. They are giving more stress on the physical laws, nature, but they do not know under whose indication the physical laws are working, the nature is working. That they do not know. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. It is the... In Vedic literatures it is said, chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā. The nature is working just like shadow, shadow of God. Just like master says, "Go there." Immediately the servant goes there. The servant is not independent. by the indication of the master, goes there. So that is nature. And because the arrangement is so perfect... Just like you said, "Out of season, the flowers came out." So they cannot explain. The arrangement is so perfect that God desired, "Now there, let be these flowers," and nature immediately produces. The arrangement is so perfect that these people, they cannot understand. They become amazed, "How it happened?"

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is called acintya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, everything is acintya. No scientist can explain anything. Even a straw. What is the constitution of the straw. They cannot do.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Umāpati: I just know when I close my eyes, it's dark.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...of the same quality, then what is the necessity of another God? It is a conclusion like this, that in the hospital everyone is patient. Therefore doctor is also patient because he's in the hospital. In the prisonhouse they're all prisoners. Therefore the superintendent of police he is also prisoner. Or the governor comes to see, visit, he is also prisoner. It is conclusion like that. God means He has got a special potency that He exists without any cause. Sva-rāṭ. This word is used in Bhāgavatam, sva-rāṭ: "completely independent." Who is that rascal, Bernard Russell? He is a well...

Yaśomatīnandana: Bertrand Russell. Yeah, British philosopher. He died probably. He died long time ago?

Umāpati: He is very fashionable. He was leader of anti-war demonstrators, and he was very man-conscious, thinking that man could solve all his problems.

Prabhupāda: But he could not solve his own problems. He died. So was he a man or dog? (break)

Yaśomatīnandana: ...philosophy. Because this whole world is made of asses, therefore asses' philosophy is given so much importance, donkeys.

Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya (end)

Morning Walk -- December 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So what these individual souls are doing to support the bigger soul?

Prabhupāda: No, they are living individually. Just like there are many germs in your stool. Because the stool is there, they are living. That is their perfect condition of living. That's all. But that germs has nothing to do with this individual soul, Mr. John. Just like I am living, you are living, but we are all independent different souls. They are living in their own condition, you are living in your own condition. But when you go to office to work, you find so many others are also working. But that does not mean they are dependent on your working or you are dependent on their work. But the condition is like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it looks like I am the proprietor of these souls.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you are not proprietor, nobody is proprietor. You are put into that condition by God. Real proprietor is God. You are simply placed in that condition, that's all. That is your dependence on the condition offered by God.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But just like in a office, the boss is working and there are different clerks. There are secretaries helping him.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the boss is the chief man who is giving work: "You like this. You work like this. You work like this. You work like this."

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 18, 1974, Hawaii:

Bali-mardana: One who actually understands the distinction, is it possible that he will still choose to be controlled by the material nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he has already chosen. But he's foolish. He does not know. He thinks that "I am now independent of the Supreme Lord." But because he's foolish, he cannot understand that you are not independent. You are being controlled by another agent of God. And because, although he's being controlled, he's thinking, "I am free," therefore he's in illusion. This is called illusion. Illusion means something which is not fact. That is illusion. So this materialist, the so-called scientist, he's thinking, "There is no God. We are independent." So many things, like rascal they are thinking. Foolish rascal, childish. And that is illusion. Ahaṅkāra-vimudhātmā. Therefore this very word is used, vimūḍhātmā: "befooled rascal." Actually, he's being controlled by material nature. So how to get out of this material nature? That is explained, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "As soon as that rascal surrenders unto Me, immediately he's out of control." Hare Kṛṣṇa. How these rascals, scientists, philosophers, politicians can refute this arrangement? Is it possible?

Bali-mardana: Yes, they refuse.

Morning Walk -- January 18, 1974, Hawaii:

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: Usually, they admit that death is certain. But the thing is that they say, what, that you can't do anything about it.

Prabhupāda: That means you are under control. You are not independent.

Satsvarūpa: But we say, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa and you can become free," and they say, "No, I don't see that."

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that a sensible man is that "I am controlled. I am controlled by some other agent of Kṛṣṇa. So why not be controlled directly by Kṛṣṇa." This is sense. I cannot be independent. Just like the government. If somebody says, "I don't agree to be controlled by you," then government will kick with police, with military. That is our position. We are being kicked by the agent of government, material nature. We are desiring in different way to become controller or enjoyer, and we are being offered different facilities, means different types of body, birth and death. So because they have no sense, they have accepted this process. So by the force of nature... "You wanted to desire. You desired this thing. All right, take this body. You wanted to eat without discrimination. All right, take this body of a pig and eat up to stool." That is nature's gift. So therefore he's changing. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa brahmite kono bhāgyavān jīva. He's going on changing, this dress that dress, that dress, that dress, that dress. But he's not in sense that "How I can stop this change?" That he doesn't know. Now, as Americans, they have so many nice facilities, but you cannot enjoy them. By nature's force, you'll have to change. What you can do? Today you are living on the twenty-fourth floor of this skyscraper, and tomorrow you may become a rat in that room. How you can change it? It is not in your power. The rat is also in the same room and you are also in the same room.

Morning Walk -- January 22, 1974, Hawaii:

Satsvarūpa: They say that about the Bhagavad-gītā too when we say that... We say, "Every verse in the Bhagavad-gītā shows that Kṛṣṇa is God." They say, "No, there are actually different meanings, not 'surrender to Kṛṣṇa.' It means something else, and this means something else."

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā says, "Surrender." If you take Bhagavad-gītā, then Bhagavad-gītā says... You cannot understand... If you want to understand Bhagavad-gītā, you must understand from Bhagavad-gītā. And apart from Bhagavad-gītā, you are already surrendered to God; you are not independent. Are you independent? Now, if, when there is rain, we could not come here to walk. So we are already surrendered. You cannot stop the rain and walk. You are already surrendered. So if Bhagavad-gītā says that "You completely surrender," what is the wrong there? You are already surrendered. Just like you are already surrendered to the government laws. If you say, "I don't care for government laws," is that very nice proposal? You're already surrendered. So what is the wrong there? You are already surrendered to the laws of God, or nature, whatever you say. So if Bhagavad-gītā says, "Surrender fully unto Me," what is the wrong there?

Bali Mardana: They will say, "Well, how do we know that Kṛṣṇa is God?"

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bali Mardana: They will say, "How do we...?"

Prabhupāda: No, no, Kṛṣṇa is not God, but you have already surrendered to God. Kṛṣṇa may not be God, that is... You bring another God, then we shall reject him. Kṛṣṇa... But that you cannot. You do not know who is God. At least, we know what is God. But if you deny that Kṛṣṇa is not God, then bring another God at least equal to Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: What would his business be at that varṇāśrama college?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is śūdra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, vaiśya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and ārati. And balance—he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit.

Yaduvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaduvara: What class does the arts and crafts come under?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Śūdra.

Yaduvara: Śūdra.

Prabhupāda: They are śūdras. Little arts and crafts can be trained up to the śūdras. They, at the present moment, they have given too much stress on the arts and crafts.

Yaduvara: Hm. Yes.

Room Conversation -- March 16, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: But these are teachings of Buddha.

Guest: Huh, but...

Prabhupāda: But...

Guest: But he's pointing at how to arrive at principles of truth. This, this is, uh, more uh, of an independent approach. He's not uh, I don't think he was trying to cheat anybody but he was trying to...

Prabhupāda: Not that. Cheating this sense, sometimes just so you, I cheat my child. The father is not cheater, but sometimes it is required.

Guest: Cheating, yeah, tells him that forest leaves are made out of gold to keep the child from crying.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the father's cheating is not cheating, but from external point of view it is cheating. You want something, I give something. That is cheating. But that cheating is good for you. When father cheats the child, it is good for the child, but it is cheating. Therefore cheating is not always bad.

Guest: Yes. A great Buddhist saint once said the same thing. He says that "All the scriptures and everything, it means just this, is that it's pretending that forest..."

Prabhupāda: Good, good lessons for...

Guest: "...leaves are made out of gold to keep children from crying," meaning that you have to arrive at truth from your own self, your own understanding. Nobody can, you know, no blind following, as you yourself say. I remember correctly that you used to preach and say, uh, that uh, you shouldn't accept anything blindly.

Prabhupāda: That, in the Bhāgavata it is said, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). Lord Buddha appeared for cheating or bewildering the atheistic person. They do not believe in the (indistinct). They did not, did not believe in God, but God is there. Lord Buddha himself is God. Just like if I say I don't want (indistinct), but you come in a different place. So (indistinct) is there, but I am thinking it is not (indistinct). Similarly, God is there—Buddha—but they are thinking that they don't believe in God. This is cheating. God is there. They are worshiping Lord Buddha exactly as we worship Kṛṣṇa. Then is it not the same? Then how do they say they don't believe in God? They are made to believe in God in a different way. That is cheating, and it is good for them. That is written in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24). (break) They're Australian.

Morning Walk -- March 18, 1974, Vrndavana:

Surabhi: Yes, I have all the plans for Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Then you can make a sketch. (break) ...plan.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing you should know, Prabhupāda. The hotels in that area are being sold. ("Hotel" in India may mean merely a restaurant. Publisher's note.)

Prabhupāda: Let them be sold. Our hotel does not depend on them. We are always independent.

Guru dāsa: Why are they being sold? For lack of people coming?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whatever the people may be doing, they...

Prabhupāda: Two hotels?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two. King's Hotel, and Horizons.

Prabhupāda: Are for sale, or they have been sold?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are selling. The owners are selling.

Prabhupāda: So...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say... I spoke with one hotel man, and he says the price of petrol is now three rupees, twenty-five paise per liter.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Petrol now costs three rupees twenty-five per liter. That means about three or four times what it was previously. So people are not so much inclined; since they have their business in the city, if they stay in Juhu...

Prabhupāda: That is one of the reasons.

Morning Walk -- March 18, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: It is for spiritual culture.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spiritual culture. Right. So for that purpose it makes no difference the center of the city or elsewhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...dependent any condition. We are independent. And you are criticizing. Permit has not been obtained. And if you think that there is no possibility of temple being sanctioned, then we start hotel. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: All right, that is already there. But if the sanction is not there, what we will do? Keep the land vacant? (break) That I am trying to get sanction, "Is it all right." If you don't, then hotel.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise build a hotel in the front and a temple in the rear.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- March 24, 1974, Bombay:

Guest (1): Or we are the servant of our ego.

Prabhupāda: So the position is constitutionally I am servant, but at the present moment, being conditioned by the material nature, I am giving service to my senses. Hare Kṛṣṇa. But if I give service to the master of the senses, Hṛṣīkeśa... Because senses, they are not independent. They are also dependent. Suppose I am now moving my hands, but if the master of my hand, Kṛṣṇa, paralyzes it, no more moving. Neither I can renovate the moving capacity of my hand. Therefore I am not master. Although I am claiming I am master of my hand, master of my leg, but actually I am not. The master is different. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's another name is Hṛṣīkeśa, master of the senses. Therefore the service should be transferred. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). We have engaged our senses for different purposes, but when we engage our senses for the service of the master of the senses, that is called bhakti. Bhakti is also service, but it is not service to the senses, but it is service to the master of the senses. This is bhakti. So constitutionally I am servant. I cannot become master. I have to serve. So if I don't serve the master of the senses, then I will have to serve the senses. This is our position.

Morning Walk -- March 25, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. He is only one. But He is, I mean, fulfilling their... This is so many, all. Because He actually...

Prabhupāda: He is feeding everyone. He is feeding His devotee, as well as nondevotees. The nondevotees are also provided by God. The nondevotees, they are not independent. They are also dependent. But they do not acknowledge.

Guest (1): They don't understand.

Prabhupāda: Just like the prisoners. They are also maintained by government. And those who are not prisoners, they are also maintained by government. The prisoners are outlaw. They do not recognize the government. That is prisoner, criminals. But both of them are provided by the government. And so far individuality is concerned, that is mentioned in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa said that "You, Me, and all these soldiers and kings, they were before existing like this, they're existing now like this, and they'll continue to exist." So individuality's always. Kṛṣṇa never said that "After this, we shall become a homogeneous mass." Never says. Individual.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Indian man (4): But the Lord uses a heavy stick, then they'll surrender.

Prabhupāda: They are surrendered. They are being kicked by māyā at every moment, but because they are fools, they say "I'm not surrendered." This is... In Bengali is called vihvala. Vihvala.(?) No, no... Shameless. He's being kicked every moment, but he's so shameless, that he's declared, "I'm independent, I'm independent." Shameless. (Bengali)

Indian man (3): Just like these dogs around us...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This is the position of the asuras. This is the characteristic of the asura. They are under stringent laws of nature, being kicked every moment, and still is declaring, "There is no God, I'm independent. I'm independent." Every moment he's dying, and still he thinks, "I shall live forever." This is asura. Pravṛttiṁ ca, nivṛttiṁ ca (BG 16.7). So this is required. Pravṛtti and nivṛtti, to know.

Indian man (4): What is pravṛtti?

Prabhupāda: Pravṛtti means inclination for doing something. That is called pravṛtti.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Indian man (4): (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he is so shameless than in spite of being kicked like that, always, he's thinking, "I'm God, I'm independent, I can do anything," like that. This is asura. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Ah?

Indian man: Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ.

Prabhupāda:

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
māyayāpahṛta-jñānā
āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
(BG 7.15)

Because they've taken to this asuric principle, they do not surrender. This is the disease, material disease. Here is Kṛṣṇa, the perfect leader, and they're going this side, that leader, that leader, that leader. Why? The perfect leader is there, His instruction is there, in all fields of life, any field of life. And ultimately spiritual realization. But they will not take it. They'll not take. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Where is your book? You can read.

Indian man (3): Oh, he forgot, and I brought another book. I brought that Siksha-vadri.

Prabhupāda: Ah?

Indian man (3): There is the name of Kṛṣṇa in every page. I told you the other day. It's a quota paṇḍita for all Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: Read something.

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, because God knows that "There are some fools and rascals who will desire like that. All right, if they want,..."

Dr. Patel: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like government knows. Suppose government is creating one city, but he's creating at the same time the jail house. Although there is no criminal at that time. But government knows there are some criminals who will fulfill this jail house. Because you are independent. Everyone is independent. Not absolute independent, but slight independent. So therefore you have the option either to serve God or serve māyā. That's all.

Dr. Patel: Serve God or serve Mammon.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Dr. Patel: You can't serve two masters at the same time. (break)

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...minute quantity. (break)

Guest (5): Why does God permit all these sins and offenses?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Dr. Patel: That is the eternal... That a madman created all this. (break)

Prabhupāda: Why do you not understand? God does not create. But you create. Just like you infect some disease. So you create your disease. Nobody's creating your disease. The simple thing, why don't you understand? If you... Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Guṇa-saṅga. If you associate with the different qualities of this material nature, then you inf..., you become infected. You, if you associate with the tamo-guṇa, then you become lower class man, animals. That is your fault. It is not Kṛṣṇa's fault.

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).

Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūyāya... Yes. (break) ...only process to take to bhakti-yoga. (break) ...Hare Kṛṣṇa means always remain guṇātīta.

Mr. Sar: Yes, correct. Because you are always... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa. Definitely. (break) ...not independently. (break)

Guest (5): ...why the Jesus says you offer the other cheek? Which is better? Is the choice of us to be violent or nonviolent?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The persons to whom Jesus Christ taught, they were already fighting. Therefore his first injunction is "Thou shalt not kill." They were already killers. You see? And Arjuna is a gentleman. He was thinking before killing. Therefore he has to be induced, "You kill like this." But they were already killers. Otherwise why Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill"? That means that society was accustomed to kill. (break) Yes, that (indistinct) circumstance.

Mr. Sar: Different persons on different occasions. Only the main occasions on which they serve. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...lence is violence. But Kṛṣṇa has got two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnām vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). So those who are duṣkṛtā, there is necessity of violence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...surgical operation. Yes. When the...

Guest (6): Yeah, I was disturbed in the early morning. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...to have surgical operation, if the doctor says, "No, no, no, I have taken to non-violence. I cannot touch with knife," that is foolishness. (break) ...you, one must know. That, you take instruction from Kṛṣṇa; then you'll know when one thing should be used and one thing not be used.

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Supraconscious state is the spiritual state, samādhi state.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual. Yes. (break) ...is, that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata-āntar-ātmanā (BG 6.47). That is the supreme samādhi, always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...little by little.

Mr. Sar: Little by little.

Dr. Patel: And we, because we are dull students... (Gujarati) (break)

Prabhupāda: Why? Why do they go to the college and university? They could do it independently. (break) Therefore tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Inquisitive, jijñāsu, they should go to the proper person who knows it.

Dr. Patel: He is, that... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...eighth time. No? Thirteenth time?

Dr. Patel: Thirteenth time. Now you must time, describe the fourteenth time because thirteen is a bad number. (Prabhupāda chuckles)

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got the translation. All my secretaries, they have got. (break) (kīrtana, Acyutānanda singing) (end)

Morning Walk -- April 2, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The whole worldly affairs is going on... The godless atheists, they cannot understand it, that behind this prakṛti, the wonderful prakṛti, so many things happening... It is not happening independently.

Dr. Patel: By the order of God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mayādhyakṣeṇa: "Under My control."

Dr. Patel:

avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā
mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam
paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto
mama bhūta-maheśvaram
(BG 9.11)

Prabhupāda: Now, these mūḍhas, they will think, "Huh? It is controlled by Kṛṣṇa? He is ordinary man like this." A mūḍha. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto. He does not know how much powerful is Kṛṣṇa, the mūḍha.

Dr. Patel: But you see, this is not like this, that those fools... (break)

Prabhupāda: That is also another mūḍha, but supposing if Kṛṣṇa says that "I am controlling the whole universe." The mūḍha will not believe it. "Huh? How is that? How...? Such a big gigantic prakṛti, and He is a person. He can control?" The mūḍha cannot understand. He cannot understand that how much powerful is Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- April 3, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Arjuna uvāca. These boys understand this, all of them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I will explain.

Dr. Patel: Now Arjuna says, paśyāmi devāṁs tava deva dehe sarvāṁs tathā bhūta-viśeṣa...

Prabhupāda: Devāṁs, devāṁs, tava deva dehe means "devas, the demigods, they are part and parcel of Your virāṭa-rupa." They are not independent. Just like this finger is part of my this whole body, similarly, all these devas, these demigods... That is explained previously. Ye 'py anya-devatā bhaktā yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ, te 'pi mām eva. If you give something to my finger, that is to be given to my body, but that is avidhi-pūrvakam. The thing's to be given to the mouth, not in the hand. But their logic is, because everything is the same, why not here? That is Māyāvāda. Yes.

Dr. Patel:

paśyāmi devāṁs tava deva dehe
sarvāṁs tathā bhūta-viśeṣa-saṅghān
brahmāṇam īśaṁ kamalāsana-stham
ṛṣīṁś ca sarvān uragāṁś ca divyān
(BG 11.15)

Prabhupāda: Yes, Brahmā rāmeśvaram. Rāmeśvaram means Viṣṇu.

Morning Walk Excerpts -- May 1, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Sahajiyā... Sahaj means easy. Easy-going. They will smoke cigarette at the same time they will play rasa-līlā. This is sahajiyā. This is sahajiyā. They will do all nonsense; still, they will become God, imitation of God.

Yadubara: "Nārada Muni wanted to impress upon people in general that Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. His activities such as His appearance..." (break)

Prabhupāda: He played also. (Hindi) We used to say chor chor kela: "Catch up the feet." (Hindi) (break) ...and wonderful things, as they are mentioned, they were all manufactured by the demons.

Dr. Patel: māyā.

Prabhupāda: No, no, these wonderful scientific advancement, they were done by the demons. So they are demons. These so-called scientist, they re all demons.

Dr. Patel: Palace of Pāṇḍavas were constructed by māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Irish Poet, Desmond O'Grady -- May 23, 1974, Rome:

O'Grady: Yes, that's the man I want to meet.

Prabhupāda: That is answered, sva-rāṭ. "Independent." That is God.

O'Grady: Independ...?

Prabhupāda: Independent. He is fully independent. He does not require to take lessons from anyone. That is God. That is God. If anyone requires to take lesson from other, he is not God. Who does not require to take lesson from other, that is God.

O'Grady: Where does human love enter into it?

Prabhupāda: Everything is there. Because love is also coming from God. So we are being part and parcel of God, there is part and parcel manifestation of love because the original love is there in God. Because nothing can exist. Nothing can exist if it is not in God.

O'Grady: Therefore we love.

Prabhupāda: The love is also there in God.

O'Grady: But God is not love?

Prabhupāda: God is love. God is everything.

O'Grady: Oh, yeah. Then love is God.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Richard Webster: Well, may I ask a question? I find in medieval European philosophy two different attitudes and..., which I find difficult to reconcile perfectly. That is to say the earlier Christians, up to the thirteenth Century, I suppose, were practically only thinking about God, nothing else but God so that nature or the human being, or any... everything else, tended to disappear altogether as also in some Indian philosophy, I think. And then, later on, with more modern science and so on you've got a different attitude in the Christians themselves, that is to say an attitude of acceptance towards subordinate things so that they became independent and finally, of course, broke away altogether so that nowadays we have science without God at all. But there was a sort of period in the late middle ages when St. Thomas Aquinas, who stopped thinking about God, only about God, and gave his attention to science, so they say. Well, there was a sort of conflict there. I don't quite know what to say about it whether I'm on one side or the other. That is to say if I were to (indistinct) the earlier Christian or (indistinct) There was Aquinas, for instance, who was a saint, but he would pray into the world, if you like. I wondered whether you would disapprove of that or...

Prabhupāda: Yes, these different types of philosophers are always there, not only in the medieval age, in the previously also. It is said, na cāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. "A philosopher is not a philosopher if he does not present a different view." (laughter) This is stated in the Bhāgavata. Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnaḥ (?). Tarka, by argument, logic, you cannot come to the right conclusion because you may be a good logician and then you meet another logician who is better than you. So his arguments may be stronger than your argument. Therefore, simply by arguments or logical premises, you cannot approach the Absolute Truth.

Richard Webster: Oh, yes. I agree.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: My organization is in fact concerned with the well being of all four classes. It is not only with the laboring man. It's also primarily with the producers, but also with the managers, leaders, and to a certain extent also with the protective classes in that we are interested in the well-being of policemen, hospital personnel, doctors, nurses, that kind of social security workers, and that kind of person. We are interested in the intelligentsia in that they are professional workers, often independent, whose professional rights and obligations need to be safeguarded and codified. That's a standard laid down in the form of international labor standards. One of our activities, not perhaps now the most important, but one of the first.

Prabhupāda: No. My point was, point is that... Because one is fourth-class, therefore we are not interested in that—it is not my point. My point is that there are four classes of men: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. And our point of view, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is meant for taking care of all classes of men. Although by natural division there are four classes of men, first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, but the example we generally give, just like in your body there are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division, but all of them meant for keeping the body fit. And body is meant for giving supply to everyone of them. But if you comparatively make division, the head comes the first division, the arms comes the second division, the belly comes the third division, and the legs comes the fourth division. So we should organize in such a way that all the classes of men in the society be happy, not that we simply take care of the head. The same example: In your body it is not your business just simply take care of the head or the legs. No. All these different divisions of your body, you take care. That is healthy body. When your brain is working nicely, when your arms are working nicely, your abdomen is working nicely and legs are working nicely, then you are fit. If you simply take care of the legs, not of the brain, that is not a good healthy body.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is my request to you.

C. Hennis: That's UNESCO. That I can't answer upon very fully. But I would suggest that they are, in that way UNESCO, United Nations through UNESCO, is very active in promoting culture and in stimulating philosophical thought. We are, on our side are more concerned with the place of the worker in society, and our organization is conceived along a peculiar model which we call the tripartite system. The members of our organization are states, not governments, but states, and each state is represented in our conference by two government delegates, one delegate of the employers and one delegate of the workers. And so the decisions that are reached, the same pattern goes down through the other organs of the organization. But the decisions that are reached in the International Labor Organization are thus not decisions which are only those of the government or the governing classes. They are decisions which represent a very broad consensus of opinions between both the employers and the workers as well as governments. And to that extent we do hope to find resolutions that have a very wide basis of ratification. After they are agreed upon by these three different elements of society represented in our International Labor Conference and in the other organs of the International Labor Organization, we endeavor to get the decisions ratified by national governments. Nevertheless the people who are here go back to their countries and try and get the decisions ratified so that a measure of uniformity in social justice and in the treatment of labor and protection of labor and in social security and in occupational safety and health and of all these things which are bound up with work and also payments to professional workers such as architects, nurses, doctors, people who work on a quite independent basis without being employed. It's not necessarily employees. Veterinarians and so on. The conditions of employment...

Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conception, the higher class of men, first-class, second class, third class, they are never to be employed. They remain free. Only the fourth class men, they are employed.

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Especially in the western countries, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the people do not like to think that they are controlled or that they are...

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. He is controlled in every step, and he is thinking... Therefore rascals. In spite of this big, big house, nice road and good car, they are rascals. But he thinks falsely. He thinks that he is independent; He will not die. Then why does he think like that, like a foolish man? As soon as māyā kicks on his face, he will die. That's all. Immediately. "I have got some business, sir." "No, no, you must die immediately." And still, he thinks that he is not controlled. What is this nonsense? We shall go that side? That is knowledge, that "In spite of my all so-called advancement of civilization, I am controlled." That is knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Then he should think how to get out of it. That is intelligence. And if, like cats and dogs, he thinks that "I am not controlled," then he is no better than cats and dogs. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). By prakṛti, by nature, he is pulled by the ears, "Come here!" "Yes, sir." "Come there!" "Yes, sir." And he is thinking, not controlled. As soon as he eats little more than he requires, "You must starve three days!" And he is not controlled. Just see. How much foolishness. And they are getting Nobel Prize. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19).

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Yogeśvara: There's a theory of the psychologists that—in some ways it's similar to our idea—that people are conditioned, that according to their environment, according to their upbringing, according to their parentage and so on, they have a kind of way of acting and thinking. So their argument is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is just another kind of conditioning, that you leave one kind of conditioning, a material conditioning, but then you also enter into another kind of conditioning when you live in the temple.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is conditioning, certainly. The position is that you must be under certain condition. That is your position. So if you become conditioned by God, that is your perfection. And if you become conditioned by māyā, that is your trouble. You must be conditioned. That is your position. You cannot be independent. And therefore, if you become naturally conditioned, then that is your happy life. Just as child, he must be conditioned. But when he is conditioned by his parents, that is his perfection of life. Your position is that you must be conditioned. Why you are thinking to be independent? That is your rascaldom. You should always know that "I must be conditioned. That is my life." Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). Condition. Still conditioned, but daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, under the spiritual nature. That is Mahātmā. Mahātmā is not independent. He is also conditioned. So first of all, we must understand that our natural position is to be conditioned. Now, why, where I shall be conditioned? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). You condition here. "You become conditioned by Me. Then you will be happy." Those who are thinking that "We shall not be conditioned," they are still in māyā. You cannot be without condition.

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:
Prabhupāda: So that one God is supplying the necessities of life. That is His condition. Suppose you are giving me all necessities of life. Then it is, the best part of my valor is to live under your control. That's all. I cannot be independent. It is not possible. That is the wrong philosophy, that these rascals are thinking of complete independence. That means they are becoming more and more conditioned by this material external energy.

Yogeśvara: Their program is that if a child's problems come from the wrong kind of conditioning, then he should be given the opportunity in childhood of a good family, good education, and so on, and that way there won't be bad reaction later on in life. Prabhupāda: That means he should be given chance for better conditioning. Conditioning must go on. It cannot be said that "Let the child be given freedom." No. Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's what they say. They say it's freedom when there is a lack of bad conditioning. Prabhupāda: That is... Bad condition is good conditioning. Where is freedom? From bad conditioning you are suggesting good conditioning. That is not freedom. Just like you are in the prison house, you are badly conditioned, but the so-called freedom—you are still conditioned under the laws of the state. You are not free. But from bad conditioning to good conditioning. And if you obey the state laws, then you are good citizen. But you are conditioned. How you think of freedom? That is your foolishness. Just like a servant. He is in some mercantile firm. He is trying to seek out some government service. But he cannot be free.

Morning Walk -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: That we also say, pralaya-payodhi-jale **. Because the whole planet was submerged in water, so there was life in water, aquatics, fishes. That is not a very new thing. We know it.

Paramahaṁsa: I have a question about evolution. Our position is that all the species have been established by Kṛṣṇa, even before creation. But yet, in the creation, it comes about through an evolutionary process?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: So the fact that evolution is existing, it's a fact. But it does not exist independent of the fact that Kṛṣṇa created it and He established it. It's not something that developed independently.

Prabhupāda: What is that? I do not follow.

Bhagavān: When Brahmā creates the different species, they're not created one at a time. They're... All over the universe, there's different species which he creates?

Prabhupāda: Brahmā is created first. So he does not belong to the species. Immediately, he's a demigod. So where is the question of evolution?

Bhagavān: Yeah. So you understand? Brahmā is created first. So it's not that we started from one-celled animals and worked up to Brahmā.

Satsvarūpa: But on a particular planet is it like that?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere.

Satsvarūpa: Are, are there sophisticated...

Prabhupāda: In the material world.

Room Conversation -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Jātu. What is...? Even for some time, they did not hear. Purport?

Nitāi: "The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals, and in this verse they have been particularly put on the level of dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality to accept the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing so-called education, the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service,..."

Prabhupāda: At least, we have got this experience in India. There are so many unemployed, educated. Because they have been educated as dog, they must find out a master. Otherwise, they have no independent power to work. Dog, unless he finds out a very nice master, it is street dog, loitering in the street.

Bhagavān: There's a report that there's so many Ph.D's who are graduating from school now that there are not enough jobs for them. So they have to take jobs as truck-driver and taxi driver.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Bhagavān: In the United States.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Room Conversation with M. Lallier, noted French Poet -- June 12, 1974, Paris:

Bhagavān: Why does the soul?

Prabhupāda: He does not forget, but he... Just like the same example. You call it forgetfulness or imitation. Just like the child was offering. He was not required to offer oblation, but he was imitating the mother. That is natural. According to Vedic instruction, we are all living entities. God is also a living entity. But He is chief. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), (break) ...that He is the topmost living entity, leader of the all other living entities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. The supreme one is maintaining all other living entities. So we are maintained. And He is maintainer. So sometimes... (to translator:) Yes, explain. There is... Sometimes it happens the father maintains the children, but the same child sometimes gives up the protection of the father. "Why shall I live under the guidance of...? I shall become independent." There are many instances in your western countries. He's happy being under the protection of the parents, but he rebels. He goes away. So that he can do. But if the father is very big, very rich, and the son leaves home and goes away to live independently, he suffers so much inconveniences and that is his choice.

M. Lallier: What does he destroy? He destroys soul?

Prabhupāda: Hm? (French)

Pṛthu Putra: So when one has fallen too low in the material life, how can he come back to his original condition?

Prabhupāda: By surrendering to God, Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So that idea just in the mind?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is animalism. (pause) (break)

Paramahaṁsa: ...performing these works and these creations independent of God.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: The materialist sees himself acting independent of God.

Prabhupāda: How he's independent of God? Napoleon wanted to finish that arch, and he was kicked out. How he's independent of God. Such a big person, strong person, he wanted to finish, but he was not allowed to finish. Then how he thinks that he's independent. That is foolishness, that I can be kicked out at any moment, and still he's thinking "I am independent." What is the answer? Why he was kicked out? He was a very powerful man, and why he was kicked out? "No, you cannot finish. You go, get out immediately." Then? Where is his independence. He was simply falsely puffed-up independent. And now, after being kicked out, if he has taken the body of a cat and dog, then what is the benefit? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). The nature is so strong and the laws are so stringent. We are not independent. If you touch fire, fire is one of the elements, it will burn your finger. However powerful you may be, you cannot stop it. Then where is your independence?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: We studied a verse yesterday evening in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Eighteenth Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says, "Work always under My protection."

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Nitāi: (reading) "In the Gītā it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction of the Supreme Lord. It has no independent authority. It works as the shadow moves in accordance with the movements of the object, but still, material energy is very powerful, and the atheist, due to his godless temperament, cannot know how it works, nor can he know the plan of the Supreme Lord. Under illusion and the modes of passion and ignorance, all his plans are baffled, as in the case of Hiraṇyakaśipu and Rāvaṇa, whose plans were smashed to dust although they were both materially learned as scientists, philosophers, administrators and educators. These duṣkṛtinas or miscreants are of four different patterns as outlined below. Number one. The mūḍhas: those who are grossly foolish like hard working beasts of burden. They want to enjoy the fruits of their labor by themselves and do not want to part with them for the Supreme. The typical example of the beast of burden is the ass. This humble beast is made to work very hard by his master. The ass does not really know for whom he works so hard day and night. He remains satisfied by filling his stomach with a bundle of grass, sleeping for a while under fear of being beaten by the master, and satisfying his sex appetite at the risk of being repeatedly kicked by the opposite party. The ass sings poetry and philosophy sometimes, but this braying only disturbs others. This is the position of the foolish fruitive worker who does not know for whom he should work. He does not know that karma, action, is meant for yajña, sacrifice. Most often, those who work very hard day and night to clear the burden of self-created duties say that they have no time to hear of the immortality of the living being. To such mūḍhas, material gains, which are destructible, are life's all in all, despite the fact that the mūḍhas enjoy only a very small fraction of the fruit of labor. Sometimes they spend sleepless days and nights for fruitive gain, and although they may have ulcers or indigestion, they are satisfied with practically no food. They are simply absorbed in working hard day and night for the benefit of illusory masters. Ignorant of their real master, the foolish workers waste their valuable time serving mammon. Unfortunately, they never surrender to the supreme master of all masters, not do they take time to hear of Him from the proper sources."

Prabhupāda: Generally, we see now, especially in the western countries, they are working so hard. The master is wine and woman. That's all. Is it not? They have made their master wine and women. In Paris we see everywhere. On the street they are drinking and talking. In Germany also, I have seen. You have been in Germany?

Devotee: Amsterdam is the same way.

Prabhupāda: Amsterdam is a place simply for prostitutes.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The democracy also is described. In Kali-yuga.

Satsvarūpa: Eleventh Canto?

Prabhupāda: In Twelfth Canto. (break) ...it is stated.

tasmāt kṣudra-dṛśo martyāḥ
kṣudra-bhāgyā mahāśanāḥ
kāmino vitta-hīnāś ca
svairiṇyaś ca striyo 'satīḥ

"Gradually people will become dwarf, will die very soon, mostly unfortunate, eating too much, and very much sexually agitated, no money, and independent, and the women, all unchaste." Just see. Everything's coming true. Rājan,

rājānaś ca prajā-bhakṣāḥ
śiśnodara-parā dvijāḥ
dasyūtkṛṣṭā janapadā
vedāḥ pāṣaṇḍa-dūṣitāḥ

"The cities will be full of rogues and thieves." Just see.

Yogeśvara: That's Paris.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere. In Calcutta it was dangerous to go out because the next... You do not know whether you'll come back. People are so afraid. He's going to work in the office. It will be God's grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a... I was guest in our life member's. Sitting in morning, afternoon, o'clock (?). "Oh, that gentleman is killed." He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the backside. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. (break) ...about so-called saintly persons, they are: tapasvino grāma-vāsāḥ. "The so-called yogis, they'll live in the town." Actually, the yogis have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in... Just like the other... He's living in Paris City, and he's a yogi.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Yogeśvara: For example, in our prayers, in our studies, what is our...

Prabhupāda: Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you'll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ: (SB 1.1.1) "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Vāsudeva who is the origin of all creation." This is the active principle. There is. So... And how He is working? (To Jyotirmayī:) You have to explain. (French) In the beginning of Bhāgavatam, I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation, it will go there. And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijñaḥ, cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then... Of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, "Wherefrom God got knowledge?" Therefore it is stated there, svarāṭ. He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone else. He's independently full of knowledge.

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: Many life or this life. In this life you understand that "My sufferings are due to this body. Then how to get out of this body?" If you acquire this knowledge, you know the tricks, then you get immediately.

Professor Durckheim: May I say that way, that you say, if you, for instance, or I want to go out of this body, it doesn't mean that I will have to kill my body, but to realize that my spirit is independent from my body.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of killing. You be killed or not killed, you have to go out of this body and accept another body. That is nature's law. That you cannot avoid. It is not necessarily that first of all you have to be killed. No.

Professor Durckheim: No. Certainly not. But I have tried to become independent from my body.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can become. (German)

Lady: Have you got some points in common with the Christians?

Professor Durckheim: Lady says that there are some common points with the Christians who also certainly want to become independent from this body which wants material life only.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It doesn't matter whether it is Christianity or Hinduism or Muslim or... Knowledge is knowledge. Wherever knowledge is available, you must pick up. So knowledge... Now let us explain, that knowledge has no color. Knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't matter whether Christianism or Hinduism or Mohammedan. Now, this is a knowledge, that every living entity is imprisoned within this body. This knowledge is equally good for Hindus, Muslim, Christian or everyone. There is no question of Christianism or Hinduism. The soul is imprisoned within this body, and the problem is birth, death, old age and disease on account of this body. But we want to live eternally, we want full knowledge; we want full blissfulness. To attain that goal of life, we must get out of this body. This is the process.

Room Conversation with Bishop Kelly -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Bishop Kelly: Yes, well, I accept that every man must open himself out to God. And as we say, well, God speaks to the open mind of a generous man and the open recesses of his own heart through His grace. But surely outside of man... See, my difficulty is, you know, that God can speak to me... Let us put it this way. Some God-fearing people and God-dedicated people have done some very strange things. Now, my (indistinct) is, if God speaks to me in the innermost recesses of my heart and He tells me on a certain matter to do this, and He speaks to somebody over here on the same matter, and He tells him to do something different, so straightaway I must ask the question. There must be some way, independent from me and from my fellow man, in which God can make His will known, can reveal Himself in so far to guarantee that I am not merely taking a subjective interpretation of what God is making known to me, and I end up with not really a valid alternative, but I may end up with an opposition or a contradiction. And my big fear there is, if it is a contradiction, well, somebody is going to lose out. Now I wouldn't be quite sure whether it was to be myself or the other person. But if that is so... So I always feel... The Christian religion, of course, feels it very keenly that it is true that God moves the individual soul in a way that is particular to each soul, his own action—we call it His action of grace which is an offering of God's guidance and God's truth, God's riches or God's life—but over and above the individual movements by which he touches and uplifts and enables the individual person, to His outside of that, something which we would say, relatively speaking, in which He is objective, in which God makes known His will as a whole plane and philosophy of life. Now, in the Hare Kṛṣṇa would you have something of that equivalent? You would have sacred writings. I know that. But would you have anything that would sort of correspond to a living interpretive voice or a living interpretation of the will of God irrespective of what God says to me as an individual in the recesses of my heart and soul. I don't know whether I spoke too much there or whether I am clear.

Prabhupāda: I don't think there is individual instruction. There is individual instruction, but that is subordinate. The general instruction is that one should be fully surrendered to God. That is general instruction. Now, if one is fully surrendered, then in a particular case and particular circumstances, God gives him instruction what to do. So because in this material world, circumstances are different, so that is not very extraordinary. According to circumstances, he gives him. But general instruction is there, and they are recorded in the scripture. That general instruction must be followed, that one cannot say that "God is dictating through me something to do even against the general instruction." That is not possible. That is not possible. The general instruction must be followed.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: This is practical. The scientists have got good brain, but who manufactured the brain? You cannot do. You have not manufactured your brain. If you say, "By nature," then nature is more powerful than you. But nature is dead. It cannot create life. That is in the hand of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). As soon as the question of jīva, living entity, there, this, mine, you can say it is nature. And other things? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarva... (BG 3.27). Prakṛti, nature, is doing. Everything explained. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā: (Bs. 5.44) "There is an energy which can create, maintain, and destroy the whole cosmic manifestation." Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā (Bs. 5.44), one. There is one energy. Chāyeva yasya vibharti bhuvanāni durgā: "That energy is working just like shadow under the direction of Kṛṣṇa." That is big energy, but that energy... Just like atomic energy, big energy, but it is done by a scientist, not that the ingredients automatically mix together and become an atomic... No. That is not possible. Big, big brain, scientist, they are dealing. Similarly this big energy-creation, maintenance, and destruction of nature—that nature is called Durgā. Durgā. Duḥ. Duḥ means difficult, and gā means going or to understand. To understand the laws of material nature is very difficult. That is called Durgā. Or Durgā means... Durgā means this is like a fort. We are kept within this, and the superintendent is Durgā. Therefore Durgā's picture is ten hands, ten directions with different kinds of weapon protecting. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā, icchānu... (Bs. 5.44). Now the conclusion. Icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā: "She is working not independently, according to the desire of somebody else." Who is that somebody? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **: "That is Govinda. I am worshiping Him." And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Page Title:Independent (Conversations 1968 - 1974)
Compiler:Visnu Murti, Mayapur
Created:10 of Feb, 2012
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=82, Let=0
No. of Quotes:82