Impersonal (Conversations 1968 - 1974)

Expressions researched:
"imperson" |"impersonal" |"impersonally"

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk at Stow Lake -- March 23, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: The dog saw that "My master has become devotee, so it is useless to keep here."

Mālatī: These people who took him, they think he is a person.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Mālatī: They treat him like person.

Prabhupāda: He's a person. Dog is a person. Why imperson?

Mālatī: Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Dog is person also.

Mālatī: Yes, but they treat him like I would... They... Human person. They treat him like... They worship him.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but what is the difference between human person and dog person? No difference. So far eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, they are equal. Human personality is there when he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise he's an animal, as good as dog.

Press Interview -- December 30, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Take it. Take it.

Journalist: Thank you. I'm not asking you any of these questions facetiously. Please understand. What does your interpretation, or how does it differ in principle from the basic Jewish-Christian ethic of the Ten Commandments? How does it differ?

Prabhupāda: There is no difference.

Journalist: All right. Then if that's the case what have you to offer... When I say "you" I mean it impersonally.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Journalist: Basically, what have you to offer that is different than the Christian ethos or the Jewish ethos?

Prabhupāda: Because, as I told you, that none of them are strictly following God's commandment. I simply come that "You follow God's commandment." That is my message.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- April 11, 1969, New York:

Devotee: Law and order.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherefrom the idea came to the human society unless it is there in the Absolute? How the idea comes? Therefore that law and order is Viṣṇu. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The idea of law and order came from Viṣṇu. How nicely explained. Janmādy asya. In two words, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Janma means creation, and ādi, ādi means first janma, then sthiti. Sthiti means staying, maintenance. And then dissolution. So three things. Yataḥ, from where these three things are happening. That means this world is being created from that source, it is being maintained by that source, and when it is annihilated it rests in that energy, the whole energy. Pralayaṁ yānti māmikam, Bhagavad-gītā. When everything is dissolved, the energy is absorbed by the energetic. So that is Absolute Truth. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam explains that Absolute Truth. Janmādy asya yata anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1). In the Vedānta-sūtra it is simply said that "The Absolute Truth is that which is the fountainhead of everything." Now if fountainhead of everything, then what the Absolute Truth's nature shall be like? That is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The first thing is that janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The factor, the Absolute Truth from which everything is emanating, so that emanation includes indirect and direct manifestation. What is that indirect and direct manifestation? The direct manifestation is the spiritual world and the indirect manifestation is this material world. Indirect manifestation means it is simply a shadow of the spiritual world. Just like in the Bible also it is said the man is made after God. So you have got two hands, one head, two leg. So the mental speculation is said that these devotees, they create God according to their own feature. Because I am two-handed, and therefore I create God with two hands, Kṛṣṇa. But actually, the fact is not that. Actually, because Kṛṣṇa has got two hands and we have got an imitation body of Kṛṣṇa, therefore we have got two hands. Because this is imitation. That we know everything, everyone. This body will not stay. Therefore it has got janma. Janma means birth or creation at a certain period, and it stays, say, for fifty years or hundred years. Then dissolved, dissolution. Therefore it is imitation. Just like if you create a doll, clay doll, very nice beautiful girl. But it will... It is imitation. It is shadow of the real beautiful girl. It is created at some time and... So reality is there in the spiritual world. Therefore it is called janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). The idea comes from there, but the impersonalists, due to their intelligence being very meager, they think that the Absolute Truth is without any variety, impersonal or void.

Room Conversation -- April 11, 1969, New York:

Prabhupāda: But that frustration has no disappointment. (laughter) That is the beauty. Just like Lord Caitanya is manifesting that spiritual frustration. "Oh Kṛṣṇa, I could not see You." He's jumping on the sea in frustration. But that frustration is the highest perfection of love. Yes. Everything is there. But without inebriety. You are very intelligent boy. I thank you. Yes. Yes. There is frustration, but not this frustration. Yes. That frustration, I mean to say, enriches one's eagerness of love for Kṛṣṇa. Everything is there, but without inebriety. Everything is there. Yes. Now see, Viṣṇu? Of course, in Vaikuṇṭha-jagat there is no violence. But Viṣṇu is taking the symbol of violence. Otherwise what is the meaning of this disc and club? So when He wants to be violent, He comes here as Nṛsiṁha-mūrti. (laughter) And He sends some of His devotees to play violence. That is Hiraṇyakaśipu. Because there the devotees are so much in accord with Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu that there is no question of disagreement. But violence is when this disagree-ment, atheist. Therefore sometimes a devotee is deputed in this world to play as atheist, and Kṛṣṇa comes to kill him. To teach these people that "If you become atheist, then here is disc and club for you." But it is not possible to be displayed in the Vaikuṇṭha. Otherwise, if there is no the propensity of violence... Just like there is sometimes mock fight. A father is fighting in mock with a small child, and he has become defeated. But there is pleasure. So ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). The Lord is joyful. So there is joy in fighting also sometimes. So your question that everything is there, that is a fact. Everything is there. Otherwise if everything is not there, they cannot be manifested here because it is reflection. Just like in... Of course, this discovery is by the Vaiṣṇava, Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava. Just like the love between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, it is called parakiya. They are not married husband and wife. But Rādhārāṇī appears to be wife of some other gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa, from childhood, They were friends. So Radhārāṇī could not forget Kṛṣṇa. She used to come to Kṛṣṇa and stand like that. That's all. And He was playing. Kiśora-Kiśorī, They were boy and girl. But there is no inebriety. Just like here the boy and girls mix and there are so many abominable things. Distressful, which is binding their material bondage. So that friendship between boy and girl is there, but without inebriety. Kṛṣṇa had so many gopīs, girlfriend, but there was no contraceptive pills. (laughter) That is the beauty. Here, the so-called love is lust. And there, that is the highest. The same thing, obverted, perverted reflection. Just like in the original tree the topmost part has come down to the down. Similarly, in the spiritual world the highest, topmost level of love, parakiya... Parakiya means love not by marriage life, by friendship. That is there. But there is no such inebriety. It is pure. So perverted means the topmost thing has come down to the lowest. Here, this parakiya, loving other's wife or other's husband, is most abominable, adultery. Not allowed by society, not allowed by the state. But tendency is there. Even one is married, he wants to love another's wife. Or if the girl married (s)he wants to love another husband. Why? That is there. But without inebriety. That is the beauty. So everything is there, but here, that thing is reflected, pervertedly. Therefore misunderstood. There is so many other corollaries. You see? But you must know everything, that without being in the Absolute Truth there cannot be relative manifestation. This world is relative manifestation. So these things are not to be understood in the beginning, but as the questions came we discussed something. But you must know, as the Vedānta-sūtra says, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything is emanated from that Absolute Truth. That is the fountainhead of everything. We cannot manufacture anything. It is not possible. But this is shadow and that is reality. And in the shadow... Just like photograph. You find that everything in detail of your beautiful face in the photograph, but that is not reality. That's all. So you'll find everything in details, all... Or you can understand actual photograph, actual idea, actual notion of the spiritual world by scrutinizingly studying this material world. The impersonalists, they think that in the material varieties there are so many abominable inebrieties, therefore in the spiritual world all these things should be minus, void. That is their material calculation. They cannot think that in the spiritual world also there is love. Because here, in this world, the so-called love or lust is frustrated and followed by so many calamities that therefore they cannot conceive that in the spiritual world also there is love. Their idea, in one sense, is right, that how these nonsensical things can exist in the spiritual world? Therefore they make it altogether minus. No variety. Impersonal. That is less intelligence. They cannot understand that photograph is the reflection of the actual person. There is everything in detail. A movie. Actually, the same man is laughing, walking, dress, everything, but it is all false. That they cannot understand. Therefore the Vaiṣṇavas say they are less intelligent.

Room Conversation -- May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: Material consciousness means forgetting God. When one forgets God, that is material consciousness. Material consciousness is called māyā. Actually one should not forget. But if he forgets somehow or other, that is material consciousness. Naturally nobody forgets his father and mother. But if, somehow or other, he forgets, that is a special circumstances and that is called māyā, illusion. Just like any one of you who are existing, you must have a father and mother. That is a fact. Without father and mother, your existence cannot be. Now, if you cannot say who is your father and mother, if you do not know, this forgetfulness, this is called māyā. Actually it should not happen, but somehow or other, if you are asked, "Who is your parents?" You cannot say. This is called māyā. But there must be some father and mother. Without father and mother, there cannot be an existence. You cannot deny that. You cannot say, "Oh, I have no father and mother." That is not possible. You may not know who is your father, mother. That is a different thing. But you cannot say, "Oh, I have no father, mother." So this denial, that "I don't believe in God," is a existence like that, one who has forgotten his father and mother. That is māyā, and that is material consciousness. Denying God in different way, "There is no God," that is also denial. "I don't believe in God"—that is also denial. "God is impersonal, void," anyway, whatever you say in that way, that is all insanity, māyā. Maya means insanity. Another meaning of māyā means insanity. Just like when a man becomes insane, that is false. It is expected that he should not be insane. By treatment he is brought again to his original consciousness. Similarly, māyā means insanity, forgetfulness of God. And by Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment he comes to the original consciousness. He becomes a cured man. Actually māyā means which has no existence. Māyā has no existence. But sometimes it is there. Just like the sky's cover. This covering is not reality.

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 12, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So here is Kṛṣṇa. All-attractive. You now find out... You can say, "Why I shall accept Kṛṣṇa?" You can say like that. Your first question is the unifying agent. I say here is Kṛṣṇa. Now we can analyze, "Why you shall accept Kṛṣṇa?" Then I shall reply, "Why you shall not?" What do you want, expect from the Supreme or the unifying, what do you expect? Everything is there in Kṛṣṇa. Opulence-Kṛṣṇa. Beauty-Kṛṣṇa. Wisdom-Kṛṣṇa. Renunciation-Kṛṣṇa. Strength-Kṛṣṇa. Everything in Kṛṣṇa. Whatever you want you'll find in Kṛṣṇa. That is the unifying center. That I will convince you. He is the unifying center actually. And Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ partha sarvaśaḥ. "Everyone is trying to come to Me. Everyone is trying to come to Me." Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). "But he's realizing Me in My different phases. But everyone is trying." So so far unifying religion is concerned there are three groups: impersonalists, personalists, and localized. Some are trying to understand the Absolute Truth in impersonal way. Some are... The yogis, the mental speculators, they are trying to understand the Absolute in impersonal, without any personal form. And the yogis, they are trying to find out Kṛṣṇa within their heart, meditation. And some are trying to find out the Absolute Truth in person by reciprocating love. So all these things are in Kṛṣṇa. And Bhāgavata says after explanation of that verse that it is the only business of human being to find out the Absolute Truth. Now, the next verse, the Absolute Truth is explained, analyzed, vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam (SB 1.2.11). Now, Absolute Truth is always one. There is no... Absolute Truth cannot be two. Then it is relative truth. Absolute Truth means one. So the knowledge of the Absolute Truth is one. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas (SB 1.2.11). Tattva-vidas means those who are in knowledge of the Absolute Truth, they say that Absolute Truth is one. But He's realized in three phases. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Brahman means impersonal, and Paramātmā is localized, and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So these are different stages. Just like the sun. The first experience of sun is this impersonal effulgence all over the sky. But that is not very important than the sun globe. Because it is from the sun globe the effulgence is coming. So anyone will understand that this sunshine is not so important as the sun globe. And if you approach the sun globe and if you penetrate into the sun, if you have got strength to go into the... Just like you are trying go to the moon planet. If you have got really scientific strength to go within the sun planet, then you'll find there is sun-god.

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 12, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: That is not finished. You have to go... That is... Upaniṣad says that, he's praying that "Please wind up Your effulgence so that I can see Your true face." The Upaniṣad says. You see in the Upaniṣad. And he's praying that "Please wind up Your this glaring effulgence so that I can see Your real face." So real face is there. And Bhagavad-gītā says, brahmaṇo 'ham pratiṣṭhā. "This impersonal Brahman is standing on My existence." And Brahma-saṁhitā says that

yasyā prabha prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-

koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam

tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

(Bs. 5.40)

This Brahman effulgence is nothing but His bodily effulgence. You see whenever we put Kṛṣṇa, there's a bodily effulgence. Within that bodily effulgence every creation is there. Just like this effulgence of sun. Within the sunshine all these planets are moving, all this vegetation, everything growing, coming. The whole thing is existing on the sunshine. Similarly, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything existing on brahma-jyotir. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said māyā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā. "This impersonal exhibition of this whole manifestation, it is I." Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). "Everything existing in Me." Nahaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ. "But I am not there." So we have to study everything intelligently. I want some intelligent persons from America. Then it will be done. It is not bluff. It is real science. Authority. One has to understand simply. That's all. Therefore in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura. Unless one is very, very intelligent he cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He must be very intelligent. So if we find one or two intelligent persons, ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā..., then one moon is sufficient to eradicate all darkness. There is no need of millions of stars. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so beautiful. You call any intelligent person, we are prepared to convince him. Any intelligent. He must be little intelligent. That's all.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 21, 1970, Surat:

Prabhupāda: So your father has got personality. And why the ultimate Godhead is not a person? What is this philosophy? If God is father, He must be person. How you can prove God imperson? Eh?

Haṁsadūta: Ah...

Prabhupāda: He is puzzled.

Devotee (1): I am puzzled.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Just try to understand this philosophy. If when I see practically my father has got head, his father has got head, his father has got head, head, head, head... Go on. And the ultimate father, why he has no head? What this poor person, gentleman, has done that he has no head? (laughter) This is... This nonsense theory is going on, that "God has no head. God has no legs. God has no hand." Imperson means He has no head, no leg, no... That means... And somebody says, "He is dead," and "void."

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- August 17, 1971, London:

Revatīnandana: That's right. So the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahma-jyotir is the same as the constitutional nature of the jīvātmās that are forming the living entities?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is comparison, a small spiritual spark. That's all. We are spark. So long it does not develop a body... That body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage. He wants to enjoy. So, so long he has forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter.

Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other?

Prabhupāda: No. He is spirit, spiritual identity already. But as we are developing material body, similarly we can develop spiritual body.

Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyotir, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahma-jyotir is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyotir I'm still fallen.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- November 11, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Oh. Rayananda(?), can you get that paper, Hindustan?

Guest: Quite surprising. He's quite a learned scholar.

Prabhupāda: The learned scholar, they have been described in Bhagavad-gītā, māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśritāḥ. Because they have taken this view that God is impersonal, He has no form, this is āsurī. Then māyaya apahṛta-jñānā. Therefore, however learned they may be, māyā takes away their knowledge. Māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśr... That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. (Hindi) The Absolute Truth, that is subjected to be imagined by me. I am a tiny soul. And if a learned sannyāsī says like that, how many thousands of people will believe in that, will be wrongly impressed? This paper will be read by thousands and millions. (Hindi) ...hodge-podge.

Room Conversation -- December 11, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Therefore it should be concluded that the so-called scientists, astronomers, they are all imperfect, and they are passing off the scientists as learned. So you can challenge them, "What is the guarantee that your knowledge is perfect?" Actually it is not. They do not know how the stars are moving. They are always imperfect. Simply putting some theories. They say all this, Darwin's theory and this theory, that theory. They are simply speculating on imperfect senses, and therefore they're cheating, because the conditioned soul has got a tendency to cheat others. If one can cheat others, he thinks himself as very intelligent. The conditioned souls, they commit mistake, they are illusioned, they cheat, and their senses are imperfect. This is the, the four condition. Therefore, if we receive knowledge from the conditioned soul, there is no possibility of getting perfect knowledge. If by nature you are cheater, then how I can expect fair dealings? It is to be understood that we cannot have any fair dealings with this conditioned soul. And he'll protest.

The whole world is full of conditioned living entities. They're conditioned. Conditioned means under the control of the material nature. Guṇaiḥ karmāṇi. There are different types of conditioned souls. Some of them are good conditioned soul, some of them are passionate conditioned soul, some of them are rascal conditioned soul. So good conditioned soul means that, er, "(indistinct) that I have become very much learned, I have studied so many books, so now I am perfect." There is little goodness, because he has studied, he, he has labored, but still he's conditioned soul, because he has no perfect vision. Vimukta-māninaḥ. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam they have been described as vimukta-māninaḥ, that "I have become now liberated, māninaḥ." Self-complacent, thinking that "I have become now liberated. Now I become Nārāyaṇa, God." These Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they address among themselves as namaḥ nārāyaṇa. That means each one of them has become as good as Nārāyaṇa, because Nārāyaṇa is mukta. Nārāyaṇa paraḥ. Śaṅkarācārya says paraḥ. Paraḥ means liberated. Paraḥ and aparaḥ. Aparaḥ means conditioned. So nārāyaṇa paraḥ, avyaktāt. Nārāyaṇa is transcendental to this cosmic manifestation. He's above. So the Māyāvādī philosopher, they think that "I have become now a liberated, as good as Nārāyaṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." But Bhāgavata says, "No. You are simply thinking like that. You are rascal." Bhāgavata challenges: "You are thinking that you have become now liberated, but you are a rascal." The Bhāgavata, Vyāsadeva is very learned, but he says "rascal," but in a very sweet language. (laughter). Vimukta māninaḥ. Māninaḥ: "You are contemplating." Why? Tvayy asta, ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas (SB 10.2.32). Our test is there. "I am liberated. I am Nārāyaṇa." Why? "How you call me rascal?" Yes, we have got a test: ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Tvayy asta-bhāvād. Still they have not reached the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Simply impersonal idea, and self-complacent that "I have become now Nārāyaṇa." So this kind of knowledge is aviśuddha, impure, impure knowledge, because the test is, unless one comes to the point of understanding the Personality of Godhead, the knowledge is imperfect. So they are impersonalists, and falsely thinking themselves as Nārāyaṇa. Therefore we can immediately test that "Here is a rascal." Vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. "No. We have undergone so much austerities, penances. Whole life I remain brahmacārī, then I took sannyāsa. I have followed the rules and regulations very strictly, and still I am rascal?" Yes, you are rascal. (aside:) Don't make sound. Silently. "Still I am rascal?" Yes. You are rascal. "Why?" Āruhya kṛcchreṇa: because the symptoms are there that you are a rascal.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1972, Madras:

Prabhupāda: ...have no attachment. These are all nonsense. You cannot be (indistinct). A living being, to become desireless, how you can? I am living. I am not a dead body. Desire should be to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Attachment should be for Him. That's all. You have to change. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have now attachment for sense gratification, desire for sense gratification. This has to be changed. Purification of desire, purification of attachment. Tat paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Eyes, because it is diseased, you don't pluck out. This is nonsense. Cure the eyes of the disease, then you will see things right. The Māyāvādī philosophy is pluck out the eyes. Buddha philosophy is make it zero. That is also same thing, plucking out. Our philosophy is "No. Cure it." That is the difference. It is very simple. Which one is better? Just like a man is suffering from disease, fever, and doctor gives him medicine. He dies. Then the patient's guardian says, "Sir, he is dead now. You have given some medicine, he is dead." "That's all right, fever is gone. Fever is gone. Never mind he is dead." (laughter) These rascal philosophy statement is like that. Make zero. Make imperson. Then the difficulties of personality... Because they have got very bad experience of personality here. He had to become minister, he has become king and this and that, householder, all botheration. So make imperson. That's all. Negation. Personality is giving us trouble, so make imperson. God must be imperson, because as soon as we have person, there is trouble. They have got experience. (indistinct) as soon as they (indistinct), make it zero, then there is no pains and pleasure. The body, because Buddha philosophy does not give any idea of soul-bodily concept. The body is combination of matter, so dismantle this combination. Just like you have got a skyscraper building, so you have to pay tax. Break it, make it zero, so no tax. This is philosophy. Do you follow? You have got a very big building, so you have to pay tax. To save tax, break the building. No more taxes. No more pains and pleasure. No more anxiety. That is Buddha philosophy.

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1972, Madras:

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...fact?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So their philosophy, "You are going to be hanged. Now you can enjoy whatever you like." So this philosophy, that because the Māyāvādī philosophy is impersonal, zero, therefore people don't care for sin. "Enjoy life. You shall finish."

Devotee: There's the story of a man who is being hanged and they said, "You can have whatever you want." So he said, "Whatever I want?" So they said, "Yes." So he says, "I want ten more years life."

Prabhupāda: We don't say whatever you want. You enjoy. Gratify your senses as much as you like.

Mālatī: Prabhupāda? What class of impersonalists are worshiping the Puruṣa-sūkta?

Prabhupāda: Hum?

Mālatī: What class of impersonalists are worshiping the universal form?

Prabhupāda: Well, universal form is not impersonal. That is personal. That is also manifestation of Kṛṣṇa.

Mālatī: But you say that... In one of your purports you are saying that the impersonalists are worshiping the universal form.

Prabhupāda: They are advised.

Room Conversation with Maharishi Impersonalists -- April 7, 1972, Melbourne:

Śyāmasundara: Yes, one can see Kṛṣṇa on three different levels of realization. The one level is this impersonal brahma-jyotir-merging level. That is called the elementary step, the first step towards God realization. And then the second step is when one realizes that God is isolated or localized within his heart, and this is the stage the great yogis and mystics attain. They are able to control their travel and attain other certain mystic powers. And then the highest step of self-realization is when one realizes God is the supreme person and meets Him face to face and spends his eternal life in the association of God in a personal relationship. There are five different kinds of personal relationships one can have with God: as His friend, as His father or His parent, or as His servant, like that, or as His lover. So if one, if one comes to this stage of realization, that "I am part and parcel of God," that "God is a person; therefore I am a person, and I remain person eternally," then he gets fixed up in his final, original, constitutional position, relationship, and there is no more higher place to go. So... And in this relationship, he understands that "Because God is very great and I am very small, then my position is to serve God." So I engage in a personal serving relationship, with a personal serving mode. In this way I'm always satisfied. I'm always relating with God, in everything I do, serving Him with everything I have. And this is where the spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa because he engages us in serving Kṛṣṇa. Just like there may be some big man and you want to enter into his service and meet this big man, but you have no qualification. But if this big man has a friend who is also your friend, this friend can introduce you and engage you somehow in this big man's service. This is the duty of the spiritual master. He accepts a disciple to make sure and guarantee that that disciple will meet God face to face, if he follows his orders.

Prabhupāda: Now answer, question, try to understand. What he has explained, have you understood?

Impersonalist: I think so.

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is also individual, you are also individual, but He is the head. Just like in our group we are all individual, but I am the head, similarly, there are innumerable individual souls, all over the universe, and the head individual soul is Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: Nobody knows that God can be person, there can be dealings like this, there are dealings actually, and they are described. That is wonderful.

Śyāmasundara: They don't know that life can be so joyful and endlessly...

Prabhupāda: That I wrote in my poetry. "The Absolute is sentient thou hast proved." That was striking to me. Not impersonal, "sentient thou hast proved, impersonal calamity thou hast moved." "Absolute is sentient thou hast proved." That was my acceptance. So even the many judges came in Allahabad, do you remember?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. In Madras?

Prabhupāda: No, Allahabad during Kumbha-melā. They said, "Swamiji, God is person, you are the first man speaking." Why first man? It is already there. They cannot believe that God is person.

Śyāmasundara: As long as there is imperson, there is doubt, there is unclear, unclear.

Prabhupāda: Unclear.

Śyāmasundara: As soon as there is person, there is no doubt, clear.

Prabhupāda: But we have tried to explain how He is person. Just like we try to explain how God is working. So one should have brain to study things. One must have clear idea how God is person, how He is working, how this cosmic manifestation is manifested by God's energy. Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā (BG 9.4). "In My impersonal feature, everything is manifested there." Tatam idaṁ sarvam. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). So one has to apply his brain—that is intelligence—how it has become person. That is not false, that is fact. You cannot understand; your brain is teeny. That is different thing. Now you make your brain competent to understand this philosophy. (break) ...vijñātaṁ bhavanti. So take this philosophy nicely, understand this philosophy, and preach. You will be victorious everywhere, because we can challenge anyone. If you know the trick, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you can challenge. Nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). One who is nārāyaṇa-parāḥ, he is never afraid of anything.

Conversation with the GBC -- May 25, 1972, Los Angeles:

Devotee: Jaya!

Prabhupāda: They are kept in darkness about God. Somebody is speaking, saying "God is dead." Some is (saying), "God is impersonal. There is not God. I am God, you are God," all this nonsense. Here is God. We have to push this. What do you think, Hayagrīva Prabhu? So, Hayagrīva Prabhu is taking charge of pushing this movement by help in editorial work. So that is most important because we are distributing books. Our writing will be gospel.

Devotee: (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: We have to edit in such a way, present our literature in such a way that it will be gospel truth.

Devotee: Oh!

Prabhupāda: Authorized. That people will refer to our books. So we have to very cautiously print our literatures. It is not ordinary literature, fiction, or something, story. Just like Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata. They are not ordinary. literature. Without any four defects of human frailties. Bhrama, pramāda, vipralipsa, also... We are following those literatures. So our writing should be so authorized that in future one may not find any fault, contradiction. We shall have to, cautiously. The ideas are given there now... In future of course, it requires that we shall increase (indistinct). But for the present, we have to push on this movement with positive, I mean to say, conviction, that here is God. God is neither dead, nor every one of you is God, nor is He imperson. God is a person and we give you His name, address, father's name, activities. Here is God. So, we have to (indistinct). So if you have got any doubt about it, then you cannot do it. If you have got any doubt that whether Kṛṣṇa is positive God or (indistinct) then you cannot do it. That is the first qualification. If you are yourself not convinced, how you can convince others? This is our propaganda. This is our mission.

Room Conversation -- August 1, 1972, London:

Dhanañjaya: He went to the (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Yes. There was a boy.

Dhanañjaya: His other idea is, he said he was working for Sai Baba, Satya Sai Baba. He said that in India he had raised so many thousands of lakhs of rupees by making posters. They are impersonal posters, so much nonsense in them, but they sold like lottery tickets. In this way he printed them and made so much money.

Prabhupāda: I mean he cannot suggest. We cannot accept anyone's suggestion.

Dhanañjaya: Yeah.

Devotee: That's proven to be too..., too horrible.

Devotee: Yes, always.

Devotee (2): I saw Mr.... Who was that? What's that man's name who made your first record in New York?

Prabhupāda: Collin.

Room Conversation with Kenneth Keating, U.S. Ambassador to India -- October 14, 1972, New Delhi:

Ambassador: Hm.

Prabhupāda: Sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva. Just like you have got pearl necklace, and if it is woven in a thread. So all the pearls, they are resting on that thread. There is no question of good or bad. Everything is resting in God. There is no question of good or bad. Not that all good men simply rest on that thread. Whatever we see within our experience, everything is resting on God. There is another verse in the Bhagavad-gītā, māyā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā: (BG 9.4) "In the impersonal form, I am spread all over the manifestation, cosmic manifestation, and everything is resting on Me, but it is not necessarily I am in everything." That is the statement there. The definition of God, first of all, if you take this definition, as the root of everything, as the source of everything, however you like. It is the definition given by the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) the origin or birth or emanation of everything. Now you take anything and find out where is the original cause, then you come to God. Take anything on this table. Your self, your body. Everything you take, if you go on searching, searching, searching, what is, where is the origin, then you come to God. That is the perfect definition of God, janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) the origin or source of everything. What do you think?

Ambassador: Oh, I'm very impressed.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 28, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: Three?

Devotee (1): Translations. Three editions by different authors in Indonesian language. The most recent, I will try to contact the author today, the man who translated it, I'll try to find him.

Prabhupāda: But unless one is realized soul how he can...

Devotee (1): No. It is impersonal interpretations.

Devotee (2): So we must encourage them to translate Prabhupāda's Bhagavad-gītā, because they're inclined. They like... They want subject matters. So why not translate Prabhupāda's books and let the government distribute them and introduce them.

Devotee (1): Only they several times suggest to me that we donate the books because they don't have money to print their own books.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (1): They have not facilities, money, to actually print and publish and distribute. That is why they are so attracted to us because we have the books and they know we have the power to print and distribute. But they have no money, no power to do it.

Prabhupāda: No. If they want, we can do that.

Devotee (2): Tell them to translate and we can publish it.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) If the government sponsor, then we can invest money and (indistinct).

Devotee (1): Yes.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No. Knowingly means that every Indian knows that Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At least... The every Indian, at least Hindus, they perform Janmāṣṭamī, accepting Kṛṣṇa. But still, they will not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality. They'll bring many other competitors. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be...? I have got Durgā. I have got this, Śiva. I have got that. I have got that. I have got that." This is going on as Hinduism. So many gods. So many gods. Although the Vedic literature says, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). In Bhagavad-gītā... Everyone reads Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā it says, Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "There is no more superior than Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: (BG 10.8) "Everything is emanation from Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). These things are there, but they'll not accept. Therefore they are offenders. Otherwise where is the difficulty? God is one. That is accepted. Eko brahma. God cannot be two. God is one. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām ekaḥ (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). One nitya, one eternal, one living being..., that is Supreme. We are living being. We are also nitya, eternal. But he is nityo nityānām. He is the chief of the nityas. He's the chief of the living entities. So that is chief. Kṛṣṇa personally says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is no more superior living being than Me." So these things are there in the Vedas. And they are supposed to be Vedic scholars, but they do not know the simple thing. So in that way they are ignorant. They read the Vedic literatures, but they do not understand, or they misinterpret in a different way for their own purpose. So they are, they're offender. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this situation, that "God is impersonal, and, everyone can become God, or everyone is God." This Māyāvāda philosophy has created this havoc. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhi. "All the Māyāvādīs, they are offenders to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore they cannot make any progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That difficulty is there—offenders. And later on, there are so many institutions. They say that "You can create your God. You can become God." That is going on. "Whatever you think as God, that is God." So how one can make progress under these circumstances? One gentleman was arguing with me... He was supporting Rama-Krishna Mission. He said, "Even stool I consider God. It is God." (laughter) He came to this point. "If I worship stool as God, then it is also God."

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Reporter: Yeah. So jñānīs are third class.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jñānīs are...

Reporter: Why?

Prabhupāda: Because they simply approach the impersonal manifestation of the Absolute.

Reporter: I see. They're intellectual.

Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman. Brahman realization.

Reporter: Ah.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). They get relief from material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. But the first class are the bhaktas. They talk, personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti.

Room Conversation with British Man -- August 31, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Pradyumna: "The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the 6th verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogis attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve—merging into the impersonal brahma-jyotir of the Lord—is only partial, and there is the risk of returning again to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning again to this material world. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas: eko devo nitya-līlānurakto bhakta-vyāpī hṛdy antarātmā. 'The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees.' This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the Gītā personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the Vedas and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation."

Guest (1): Yes, I understood all that. Also, whilst listening, I could quite see that you gain a freedom through grace, and don't have to come back here again, and then I thought that you personally must have come back here because you wanted to. Because you had a job to do perhaps. Well, obviously—not perhaps.

Prabhupāda: Come back?

Pradyumna: He said that you must have come back here because you had a job to do.

Guest (1): You see you, if you were freed in your previous time and did not have to come back, it does occur to me that you have come back because you have a job to do.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also, just like, Kṛṣṇa comes. Similarly Kṛṣṇa's son, God's son, sometimes He comes. Sometimes Kṛṣṇa's great devotee, servant, he comes because the spiritual enlightenment to the fallen souls, that is required. So in the human society, when the living entity gets the chance of having this human form of life, he has got the facility to understand his position, how to go back to home, back to Godhead. So that facility is offered by God, by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, we have got these books. We have got spiritual master, we have got ācāryas. Just to enlighten these fallen souls to go back to home, back to Godhead.

Room Conversation with Latin Professor -- December 9, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: I see. So... Oh, you have no seat? They are giving him? All right. So from Bhagavad-gītā we understand that Bha... Just like in this planet we are so many persons, or the President Nixon is the President. Similarly, in every planet there are living entities, and the President of the sun planet is called Vivasvān. So he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa long, long ago. In the higher planetary system, the time is different. That was proved when the Russian aeronautics were on the sky. In one hour twenty-five minutes, he went round the earth, twice or thrice, like that. So time is different. So the point is... Just like the sunshine is impersonal, the sun is localized, and the president of the sun globe is a person, similarly, the Absolute Truth is realized in three phases. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The first realization is impersonal, then localized, and then personal. So ultimately, God is person. And that is Kṛṣṇa. So we are hearing directly from the Supreme Personality of Godhead about Godhead, and that is perfect knowledge. If you speak yourself about yourself, that is my perfect knowledge of yourself. And if I simply speculate that "Professor may be like this, like that," that is not perfect. I am speculating, but if you come to me, "Swamiji, I am like this," then my knowledge is perfect. Otherwise, I can go on speculating for millions of years. Still, my knowledge is imperfect. So we cannot manufacture God; neither we can speculate. That is not possible. But you can get some idea, but there is no possibility of getting perfect knowledge of God. God is unlimited. I am limited. So my speculative knowledge is limited. So how I can understand the unlimited by my limited knowledge? That is not possible. We can make little progress, and that is impersonal understanding. The perfect understanding is that He is person, all-powerful, all-mighty, all beautiful, all-wise, all..., everything perfect, six opulences: riches, strength, influence, beauty, knowledge and renouncement. These are the six opulences. And God is complete. This is conception of God.

Morning Walk -- December 10, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prajāpati: In some Western theological literature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it refers to that "God is love." In what sense...

Prabhupāda: No, I have already explained. What is not God? That is already explained. Anything you bring, He is, God is there. Without God, nothing can exist. So why this or that? Anything, that is God. But He's absolute. His love and His enmity, that is the same thing. We distinguish, here in this material world, "This is love and this is animosity." But God's animosity and God's love—the same thing. That is acintya. Here in the relative world we cannot adjust how animosity and love can be the same, one and the same. That is acintya, inconceivable by us. But God's love... Just like God's love for the gopīs and God's enmity for Kaṁsa, they're reaching the same result. Both of them are going to the spiritual world. Just like Pūtanā and Mother Yaśodā. Pūtanā came to poison Kṛṣṇa, and Mother Yaśodā is always anxious to save Kṛṣṇa, naughty child. He may not be hurt. So two opposite things. But both of them got the same result. Kṛṣṇa thought that "I have sucked her breast, so she is My mother. She must go to the same destination as Yaśodā Mā." Just see. That is His enmity. And that is absolute. In our relative world, we can see so many differences in the dealings of God, but He is absolute, one. That is conception of God. Advaita. Advaita. Advaita means absolute. And... Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam (SB 1.2.11). Again advayam. You may conceive God as impersonal or localized Paramātmā or Bhagavān—the same thing. But due to our, I mean to say, meager knowledge, we are thinking, somebody's thinking that His personality is greater than impersonality and somebody's thinking impersonality's greater than personality. This is our conception. He's the same. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam (SB 1.2.11). Not different. Not different. But one who has reached to the conception of personality, he has got all the others. That is the difference. So you write. You are theologician. You write about God so that people may understand how our students are enlightened. Other so-called foolish theologicians may learn from you. You take the ideas and explain.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Karandhara: So they say, "Well, we cannot see God." But they could not see the people in those past days either.

Prabhupāda: No. You cannot see the government, but when things are going nicely, you must accept, there is government. That is... When things are going on very nicely, regularly, the sun is rising regularly, the moon is rising regularly, the seasons are changing and the waves are flowing, everything, then you have to accept that there is government. And as we have got experience here in this material world... Government is impersonal, but that at the end there is a president. Similarly, the whole government, the complete government, may be impersonal in the beginning, but at the end there is a person, that Supreme Person, Bhagavān. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Yes. Paramātmā is representative of God. Just like the president has got so many representative governors, similarly, Paramātmā is the localized representative of God, and God is person, and the whole government is impersonal. This is the conception. When we say "government," you cannot localize that "Who is that person, government?" That is impersonal. But when we find governor, then localized persons. And then above them, all of them, when there is president, he is supreme person. This is our practical example. Similarly, nature is working impersonally, but there are officers. They are called demigods. And above them all there is the Supreme Lord. He is Bhagavān. And this idea wherefrom has come? The president, the governors, and the government. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). It has come from there. Because of the origin, the same thing is there.

Morning Walk -- December 30, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Another rascal is buying. We are not buying. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam, spotless knowledge, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Amalam. Amalam means without any spot. (break) ...of God is given in the dictionary, "Supreme Being." That is very nice. Everywhere we see that on the top there is a supreme being, just like in your state, the president. So why not this big government, a Supreme Being? Where is the difficulty? Without something supreme, controller, things cannot go nicely. Otherwise why you select a president? Why you select a supreme being and give him all power that "Your order will be final"? Why you do that? Because you want the government must go on nicely. Otherwise there is no need of electing a president. So supreme being must be there, in every management. So this big huge management, there must be Supreme Being. And that is God. Clear, simple understanding. How can you deny? The difficulty is that with our poor fund of knowledge, we cannot understand that how a Supreme Being, person, can create the sky, this huge water, the sun, moon. Because I am thinking, "God must be like me." A Dr. Frog. He is thinking, "Atlantic Ocean must be like this well." That is our defect. He cannot conceive that beyond this well there can be a vast great mass of water. He cannot conceive. So comparing his intelligence, he is thinking that "How it is possible that a person can create such a big sky, such big, huge...?" Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). This earth, so big, huge quantity of earthly planet. So not only one. Millions. And then water, then fire, then... He cannot conceive. He is thinking that "If there is God, He must be like me. So I cannot do this. Therefore there is no God." The same, "Yes. I close my eyes. Then there is no enemies." That's all. He should be intelligent. Just like we are here ten or twenty men. You accept that "He is our guru. He is most intelligent man." Similarly, somebody is more intelligent than me, somebody is more intelligent, more intelligent. Go on searching. Find out the final intelligent. That is comparative intelligence. That we know. But what is that final intelligence? That we must know. That is God. Just like the sun. If we think that beyond this sun there is no more planet, that is not correct. You cannot go beyond this sun. That is another thing. But all the planets are surrounding the sun. That everyone knows. So if there is a planet this down the sun, why not up the sun? It is common sense. This water is impersonal, but go down the water. You will find millions of persons, aquatics. Those who are seeing superficially on the surface, they have concluded, "Now finished, all personality finished. It is all vacant." That is poor fund of knowledge. Real knowledge is go deep into the water, you will find millions of creatures. They are living very nicely within the water. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayān... Even within the atom, you will find personality.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- February 17, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: But their income is more than one lakh of rupees daily.

Guest (1): Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Keno āpnāra?

Guest (3): (Hindi) (break)

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (break) ...that is our slogan. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). Janmādyasya yataḥ. We explain this truth. the truth is that from whom everything comes. Janmādyasya yataḥ. So He's a person or imperson? No, abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ.

Devotee: Kṛṣṇa says, "There's no truth superior to Me."

Prabhupāda: Yes, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). The truth is there. They do not know. Half-educated. This is very good, "Truth is the..." We also say, but they do not know what is that truth.

Satsvarūpa: They leave the question hanging, that "No man may actually know what it is." (end)

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: This is water snake? They have no poison.

Dr. Patel: Evaṁ satata-yuktā ye bhaktās tvāṁ paryupāsate, ye cāpy akṣaram avyaktam... (break)

Prabhupāda: Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. This is the stress. Mayy āsakta. "Here I am present. Why you should contemplate on imperson?" But the foolish people will not understand this. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante (BG 7.15). He is canvassing, "Here I am," but they will not surrender. They are searching out God somewhere else. "Here I am." "No, no, no. You are not." Mūḍhas.

Mr. Sar: Mūḍhas, yes.

Dr. Patel: Ye tu akṣaram anirdeśyam...

Mr. Sar: ...avyaktaṁ paryupāsate. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Mūḍha, sab mūḍha.

Dr. Patel: They are all mūḍhas. Let us complete it now. Kūṭastham acalaṁ dhruvam. (break)

Prabhupāda: But where is sarva-bhūta-hite ratāḥ? He is engaged in "family hite ratāḥ."

Morning Walk -- March 23, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: We take instruction from the Complete, not partial. Partial instruction may be good partially. But complete is complete. (break) ...pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate.

Dr. Patel: That is, then what do you... How you are saying that?

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa is expanding Himself in so many ways. Still, He's Kṛṣṇa. He's not impersonal. The Māyāvādī says, "Because Kṛṣṇa has expanded in so many ways, therefore no more Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is finished." Because this is Māyāvāda. "Because Kṛṣṇa has expanded in so many ways, therefore there is no personal Kṛṣṇa." This is Māyāvāda philosophy. But the Upaniṣads say, "No, even though He has expanded in so many thousands ways, still He's Kṛṣṇa."

Dr. Patel: But even Bhāgavata says that even though He was born as an embodied, He was still so in His eternal place there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is pūrṇa. It does not mean... Just like īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's staying in everyone's heart. That does not mean He's finished. He's still there. That is Kṛṣṇa. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. "And still, don't think that I am there."

Morning Walk -- March 24, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Saṁsiddhiṁ labhate parām.

Dr. Patel: So, now let us surrender. Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam.

Prabhupāda: Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. Yena, that is person. Yena. That is not imperson. That is person. Is it not?

Guest (1) (Indian man): Yes.

Dr. Patel: We have to say yes before you. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: No, no. You are a Sanskrit scholar.

Dr. Patel: I am not. I have just very little Sanskrit.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Yena, this word means person. Yena. This is person.

Dr. Patel: Both imperson and person. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ. Now that girl, the doctor lady, you choked the other day in the morning, she, poor thing wanted that "I am practicing the medicine and serving people," and you call her a fool, "You are a damn fool." Well, she's doing the...

Prabhupāda: She is not serving. She's serving her... Everyone is serving money, money.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, rāmānandī, rāmānandī(?)

Indian man (4): These are different.

Prabhupāda: They say that they follow... (break) ...impersonal.

Indian man (4): Now, he has given about how brāhmaṇas should do—all this.

Prabhupāda: Why you recommended Pañca-upāsana?

Indian man (4): I don't understand that.

Prabhupāda: That is the impersonalist.

Indian man (3): (indistinct) bhakti.

Indian man (4): I don't know... Why...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no...

Indian man (2): Pañcarātra...

Prabhupāda: Pañcopāsanam means that the Absolute Truth is impersonal. You can imagine as person like this. This is pañcopāsanam. Sādhu kanam hita taya brāhmaṇa rūpa kalpana, kalpana.(?) "You just imagine one form." But Vaiṣṇava, he's not like that. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ.

Morning Walk -- March 31, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: But they... Now it is clear. That antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ. That is intelligence, that "If I have to ask something, and it is to be ended, why shall I be interested with such thing?" So devān deva-yājo yānti...

Mr. Sar: Mad-bhakta yānti mām api.

Prabhupāda: Mām api. So why not go to Kṛṣṇa? Why to these... (break) The Māyāvādīs, they think that Kṛṣṇa has got His māyā body. His body's māyā. Because the origin, Absolute, is impersonal, so when the Absolute comes in form, He accepts the material elements just like we do. We do. So they are abuddhayaḥ. Their intelligence is abu...

Mr. Sar: Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24).

Prabhupāda: Vyaktim āpannaṁ.

Dr. Patel: They consider body of Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Avyaktam, avyaktam, the Absolute Truth is avyaktam. And when Absolute Truth comes, incarnation, He accepts this mayic body.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1974, Bombay:

Chandobhai: Yes, yes. Here. Bhaktyā yukto yoga-balena caiva.

Prabhupāda: Yoga. Bhaktya. That is the bhakti-yoga. Not otherwise.

Chandobhai: Bhruvor madhye prāṇam āveśya samyak.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...they meditate all the life, the so-called yogis. Something impersonal... Some light, like this, like that. Light may be also, if that Brahmān light. But here it is specifically mentioned...

Dr. Patel: Especially spontaneously you feel some light...

Prabhupāda: That's all right, Brahma-light. But the Brahma-light, according to Bhāgavata philosophy, even one enters in the Brahman effulgence, still he falls down. Still he falls down. Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādhṛta-yusmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Unless one is fixed up in the personal form of the Lord, there is chance of falling down. They fall down actually. We have seen so many sannyāsīs. Just like at the present moment, Korpatali(?). He's now busy in politics.

Dr. Patel: One man married in America, some sannyāsī.

Chandobhai: Citrabhānu, Citrabhānu.

Dr. Patel: Citrabhānu, or... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...one is God.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: That is Goloka dhāma.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Yad akṣaraṁ veda-vido vadanti. That means impersonal. Veda-vido. One who knows Vedas.

Chandobhai: Viśanti yad yatayo vīta-rāgāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Chandobhai: You see, now He tells all the practice of the yoga.

sarva-dvārāṇi saṁyamya

mano hṛdi-nirudhya ca

mūrdhny ādhāyātmanaḥ prāṇam

āsthito yoga-dhāraṇām

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's... Artificially you cannot saṁyama. If your mind is not fixed-up, artificially you cannot make. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad gata... (BG 6.47). One who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa, he is perfect yogi.

Chandobhai: But he has to be yogi at that time, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-dvārāṇi saṁyamya. Just like these boys, they do not go to see cinema, they do not go to restaurant. This is sarva-dvārāṇi saṁyamya. You see? They do not go to anywhere except in the temple. They do not talk anything nonsense, except Kṛṣṇa. This is sarva-dvārāṇi saṁyamya.

Morning Walk -- April 3, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore, what is Kṛṣṇa, is to be understood from Arjuna. This is paramparā system. Paramparā system. Arjuna talked with Kṛṣṇa personally. So his experience is first-hand. So how this rascal can imagine of Kṛṣṇa, that "Kṛṣṇa is like this, Kṛṣṇa is like that." If you actually reading Bhagavad-gītā as Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa, you have to accept it. This is called paramparā. So what is the experience of Arjuna? Arjuna said, "You are, you are the Supreme Personality, puruṣam. You are not female. You are not prakṛti. You are puruṣa, śaśvata, and the original, śaśvatam, eternally." Not that, the Māyāvādīs, "Now impersonal..." Yes, read one line. That is sufficient.

Dr. Patel: That same line. Puruṣaṁ śaśvataṁ divyam ādi-devam ajaṁ vibhum.

Prabhupāda: Ādi. Yes. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ. Ādi-puruṣam, He is the original person. Person. He is not imperson. Puruṣam is not imperson. Brahman is impersonal, but Paraṁ Brahman is not impersonal. That is Kṛṣṇa. So therefore it is called paraḥ, param. Brahman realization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā: "You inquire about Brahman."

Dr. Patel: All-pervading, vibhum.

Prabhupāda: Vibhum, yes, all-pervading. Just like the same example. The sun. The sun is all-pervading by sunshine, but still, sunshine is not important as the sun globe. This is to be understood. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa... Let us understand one line. Param Brahmān. Brahmān, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. But they are Para-brahman. Īśvara, everyone is īśvara. That's all right. But not everyone, Parameṣvara. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1).

Morning Walk -- April 3, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Now, this is to be understood, how "You are all-pervading by Your influence, by Your power." That means "You are always there." "You" person is there. Just like a big man, big businessman, is sitting in his room, but he is all-pervading, all-pervading.

Dr. Patel: But he must have got special powers deputed to certain people. And these are that vibhūtis.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is vibhūti. That does not mean... Māyāvādī philosophy is: "Because He has spread everywhere, therefore He is imperson." He remains person, without any change, avyaya. But still, He is spread. That he is asking that "How I shall understand You, that You are spread everywhere." Akhilātma-bhūtaḥ. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (Bs. 5.37). That is... So we have to understand from Kṛṣṇa how He is all-pervading, not that mental speculation. "Just like if you take a thing and distribute all over, the original thing is lost." Not like that. Original Kṛṣṇa is there.

Dr. Patel: Pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- April 3, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. And after...

Dr. Patel: But he is talking with Dhanañjaya.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You cannot make it an impersonal. As soon as you say Dhanañjaya, He is person.

Dr. Patel: Oh yes, that way. That way you are right. Vṛṣṇīnāṁ vāsudevo 'smi. That means He is the father of even Himself.

vṛṣṇīnāṁ vāsudevo 'smi

pāṇḍavānāṁ dhanañjayaḥ

munīnām apy ahaṁ vyāsaḥ

kavīnām uśanā kaviḥ

Prabhupāda: Yes, Vyāsadeva is incarnation of God.

Dr. Patel:

daṇḍo damayatām asmi

nītir asmi jigīṣatām

maunaṁ caivāsmi guhyānāṁ

jñānaṁ jñānavatām aham

Prabhupāda: Nītir, by argument, by logic, when one becomes victorious, that victory is Kṛṣṇa, nītī. Without Kṛṣṇa...

Chandobhai: It is God's victory, not his.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- April 3, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So because Arjuna was not accustomed to this impersonal theory...

Dr. Patel: Even the pastime, rūpa vi...(?)

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he wanted to see the virāṭ-rūpa. Therefore he said, "If you think that I shall be able to see, then You can give me."

Dr. Patel: Shall I read further?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Śrī bhagavān uvāca, paśya me pārtha rūpāṇi śataśo 'tha... (BG 11.5)

Prabhupāda: So it was not difficult for him. Immediately He showed him. That is Kṛṣṇa. Not that "I shall show you some day privately."

Morning Walk -- April 4, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So even in the universal form, there is personality. Divya-mālya, divya-gandha, kirīṭina, dressed, well-dressed. Well-dressed is possible not in the imperson. If you want to dress somebody, he must be a person. You cannot dress in the sky. "Here is helmet, here is garland." Where you put? (laughs) So in the universal form also there is personality.

Girirāja: (reads synonyms to:) "ābharaṇam-ornaments; divya-divine..."

Prabhupāda: You have to understand.

Girirāja: "Aneka-various..."

Prabhupāda: Aneka. So here is the word, aneka. Ana eka, "more than one." So what is that aneka?

Dr. Patel: Everything, aneka.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Dr. Patel: Innumerable you can say.

Chandobhai: I mean (indistinct Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: Aneka, that is confirmed in the Vedas, eka puruṣam. That is aneka. That is aneka.

Morning Walk -- April 4, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Although this is virāṭ-rūpa, still, there are aneka, many varieties. And each one of them is personally described. Yes.

Girirāja: (continues synonyms to end) "Translation: Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths and unlimited eyes."

Prabhupāda: Unlimited mouths. The unlimited person. As soon as you say, "unlimited mouths," means unlimited person. That is not imperson. Even in His aneka-mūrti He is person. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā in the Second Chapter, that all we remained person in the past, we are persons at present, and we shall continue to become persons in the future. So this impersonal description of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is for the persons who do not understand what is God.

Girirāja: "It was all wondrous. The form was decorated with divine, dazzling ornaments and arrayed..."

Prabhupāda: Again personality. And where do they get the idea of impersonal, even in the virāṭ-rūpa? How do they get? What is the authority?

Chandobhai: Gopīs are personal.

Prabhupāda: No, no, everything is being described as person. So where is the question of imperson? Even in His aneka mūrti, in the virāṭ form, universal form, there are persons. At least from Bhagavad-gītā, nobody can prove that the Absolute Truth, God, is imperson. That is not possible. But still, they are doing that. That means they do not understand what is Bhagavad-gītā, although they are very much proud of regular scholar of Bhagavad-gītā. So am I right or wrong? Let us discuss.

Morning Walk -- April 4, 1974, Bombay:

Chandobhai: He is both personal and impersonal.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why?

Dr. Patel: You are right.

Prabhupāda: No, here it is described person. Although the virāṭ-rūpa is there... Virāṭ-rūpa is considered...

Chandobhai: Virāṭ-rūpa is personal.

Prabhupāda: Personal. So but...

Indian man: Kṛṣṇa has also declared...

Dr. Patel: For personal communication...

Indian man: Kṛṣṇa says that I am both personal, impersonal, and I am above that.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That imperson does not mean that He is not spiritually person. Impersonal means He does not become... That... This description of person, they are not these material persons.

Morning Walk -- April 8, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Not only existence. What is God, first of all. He must exist. Otherwise, where there is question of "What is God?" So what is the nature of God, what is our position, what is our relationship with God, what is our duty, and what is the goal of life, these things are very thoroughly discussed in Bhagavad-gītā. So if we understand Bhagavad-gītā very nicely, then we understand the whole science of God. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...that Kṛṣṇa comes, descends personally, to settle up the contention whether God is person or imperson. So even the Kṛṣṇa's presence cannot convince these Māyāvādīs, poor fund of knowledge, that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord is person.

Girirāja: (reading:) "Somehow people can understand the different incarnations of Your Lordship, but they are puzzled to understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa with two hands, moving among human beings exactly like one of them."

Prabhupāda: (break) ...them, the form is meant for killing them, chastising them. Therefore dangerous. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). So for the nondevotees the form is very dangerous. Sadā paśyanti yoginaḥ. Yogis, they concentrate their mind on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is real yoga. (break) ...boat, he crossed over.

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Just like the sun or the moon. There is the sun-god or the moon-god within the planet. That is the original. And then the sun globe, it is localized. And then the sunshine and the moonshine. Hare Kṛṣṇa (Hindi) (aside:) (break) ...what is impersonal and personal. What is that? Repeat it, what I have said.

Italian Man (1): This way, if I understand what is personal and impersonal?

Prabhupāda: Yes, what is that personal and impersonal?

Italian Man (1): Is that Kṛṣṇa also has a... He's a person. He is not only all-pervading abstract energy.

Prabhupāda: He is all-pervading.

Italian Man (1): Yes, but He also is a person.

Prabhupāda: Not also. He is person. This all pervasive influence or all pervasive feature is His expansion of energy. The same example: The sunshine is the expansion of energy of the sun globe, and the sun globe is the place for the sun-god. The sun-god is a person, and sun globe is the place where this sun-god lives, and sunshine is the expansion of the energy of the sun disc. Try to understand it very... Because this question is very complicated. People cannot understand. You try to understand this. God, Kṛṣṇa, is originally a person. Brahmeti bhagavān iti. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān (SB 1.2.11). Just like if you want to see the sun-god, there is a person. His name is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, Vivasvān. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). He is a person. Now you cannot see the person so easily.

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Italian Man (1): Material energy.

Prabhupāda: Material energy, yes. And the living entities, they are also energy, spiritual energy. Two energies. Two energies means just like fire. Fire has got two energies, heat and light. Similarly, the whole creation is combination of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore everything is Kṛṣṇa. Is it not? Yes. Just like you take milk. From milk you prepare so many milk preparations. You prepare yogurt, you prepare ghee, you prepare rasagullā, you prepare burfi and so many others. But therefore, actually, all of them are milk. This is... Under different combination only. In the milk, if you put some sour thing, it becomes yogurt. But it is milk. And that sour thing also, which is put into the milk, that is also Kṛṣṇa. (break) Why He is originally person, try to understand. And all these energies are imperson. Just like I am a person, you are a person. But when I... My temperature is imperson. Is it not? I have got temperature, if you put thermometer. That is imperson. So person is the origin, and the impersonal temperature is the energy.

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Italian Man (1): And beyond ether?

Prabhupāda: Just like the same example. The breathing is coming from a person. So breathing is impersonal, but it is coming from the person. Similarly, originally God is person. In the Bhagavad-gītā everything is explained, "From Me. I am the origin of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is... This has to be..., how everything is coming from Him. And if we understand how it is coming, then we have to accept that it is coming from the person, not from the imperson. Imperson is secondary manifestation of the person. Just like the fire. Fire is the origin. It has got a form. But secondary manifestation of the fire is heat and light. Not that...

Italian man: The second manifestation of fire is heat and light?

Prabhupāda: ...is heat and light.

Italian Man (1): And fire is...?

Prabhupāda: Fire is the origin. That is form. That is not formless. Heat may be formless. Light may be formless, but fire is not formless. Thik hai? If you have got intelligence, then from the form-less, you can approach the form. Just like the sunshine, shining is formless. If you have got form, go to the sun planet. And if you go to the sun planet, you will see the sun-god. But they cannot go. They cannot appreciate that there is a person who is known as sun-god. But it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham... The name is also given, what is the name of that person.

Morning Walk -- April 16, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ,...

Dr. Patel: Sa sannyāsī ca yogi ca.

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Girirāja: "The transcendental form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is perfect or so great that the impersonal followers of the Upaniṣads cannot..." (break)

Prabhupāda: Sometimes we...

Dr. Patel: First reading you don't mind following.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So after all, we have got still the material body. Sometimes we get tired. That is also fortune. (break) That is the advantage of human life. You can check.

Dr. Patel: Particular intelligence is given to human being?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: The elephant has got so much intelligence, they say, as good as human being.

Prabhupāda: Intelligence... Not only intelligence. Human life has got the discriminating power. Sad-asat. (Indians speaking) (break) ...infected, how your medicine will be sold? (break) ...merchant, I will say like that. (break) Since we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then bahyābhyantaraṁ śuciḥ. We are... What is called? Prophylactic, prophylactic. (end)

Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne -- June 4, 1974, Geneva:

Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, but not the name of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, in Atharva Veda there is name of Kṛṣṇa.

Prof. Regamay: Viṣṇu, yes, I know that the...

Prabhupāda: So it doesn't require that in every Veda there should be, because the Upaniṣads, they are impersonal study, negation of the material existence. That is negation. There is no positivity. So when you come to the positivity, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa.

goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya

devī-maheśa-hari-dhāmasu teṣu teṣu

te te prabhāva-nicayā vihitāś ca yena

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

(Bs. 5.43)

So you cannot understand the goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya, the Goloka-nāmni planet, where it is. We do not know where is or how many planets are in this material world. (break) ...seeing very, very distant, ninety-three million miles away. But we have got little heat and light, we are satisfied. You see. But if you have got the capacity to run on..., just like they are trying to go to the moon planet, go to the sun planet... Actually it is a fact, this planet is in your front. Where can you go? Why? Why is it impossible to go? It is material. So you cannot go even the material planets, what to speak of the spiritual planets. So for them, this, this much knowledge, "Sunshine is light." That's all. Nothing more. They cannot understand with their poor brain.

Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne -- June 4, 1974, Geneva:

Prof. Regamay: But I am struck that, for instance, for us in the West the idea of personal God is strongly rooted in our consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. The personal God is the origin. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The... Just like, the same example: the sun god, the sun planet and sunshine, they are one. They are not different. But still, this is impersonal, that is localized, and within the sun globe, there is the sun god. So sun god is the origin of this light. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam (BG 10.8). That's the fact. But people with poor fund of knowledge they cannot understand it. Therefore stop... (break) ...light, that's all. So much. Just like Lord Buddha. He did not explain anything about God. He said, "Just obey me and stop this animal killing." Therefore this much sufficient for him, that's all. The lower class students, one plus two equal to three, two plus two..., that much mathematics, not higher mathematics. Higher mathematics is not possible to understand.

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Just like Kaṁsa associated with Kṛṣṇa always, their position is like that. That is not bhakti. Bhakti is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167), favorable, not to reject Kṛṣṇa or kill Kṛṣṇa, and think of Kṛṣṇa, "How to kill Him? How to kill Him? How to kill Him?" That is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but that is not favorable. Therefore it is not bhakti. But they get the salvation because they have some way or other thought of Kṛṣṇa. Impersonal salvation. They are not allowed to enter into the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa.

Satsvarūpa: In the beginning of devotional service, the concentration is on the service more than on Kṛṣṇa the person.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: But then gradually, as we serve and serve and concentrate on the service, then there's realization.

Prabhupāda: Yes, realization comes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Of who we're serving.

Prabhupāda: The disciple serves Kṛṣṇa under the direction of spiritual master. Vidhi-mārga, regulative principles. Vidhi-mārga, rāga-mārga. (break) ...gunarna jata nat krta mukha santi (?). So, I think it is mud.

Room Conversation with Christian Priest -- June 9, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Huh? That is Muslim.

Priest: Allah.

Prabhupāda: Allah akbar. So what is the conception of God of the Christian?

Priest: As you said, it's impersonal, trans-personal, what we explain by that Trinity. It's a relationship. It's a pure relationship.

Prabhupāda: Yes, relationship means that He must be a person.

Priest: No.

Prabhupāda: Why? Otherwise how you can...

Priest: It is beyond a person.

Prabhupāda: Beyond the person... Just like we have got experience: when you call relation, then relation means we consider master and servant. This is also one relation.

Priest: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So relation means two person—one master, one servant. Then relation, friendly relation, that is also person. Then relation, father and son, that is also relation. Then husband and wife, that is also relation. So relation cannot be used without person.

Room Conversation with Christian Priest -- June 9, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: God is person, then? What did he say?

Jyotirmayī: Then he said that so is it not that God, the person, this divine essence, is a superperson, an evolved person, and not exactly somebody impersonal. Like he said that in Śaṅkarācārya's philosophy there is the conception of tat. So is not this tat conception, this divine essence, this superperson...

Prabhupāda: Yes, He is divine essence. God is divine essence, just like you have volumes of milk and you churn it, then you get so much butter. So the butter is the essence of the milk. Similarly, the spirit is vast, all-pervading. The example, another example, is just like the sunshine universally spread, very big. Then you concentrate the sunshine, it is sun globe. And if you still concentrate, you will see within the sun globe there is sun-god. So he is the essence of this light, the sunshine light, the sun globe light, and the person—sun-god, Vivasvān, he is person—he is the essence among all this light. That is explained in the Brahma-samhitā, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi (Bs. 5.40). The whole creation means expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa. Yasya prabhā prabhavato (Bs. 5.40). By expansion of the bodily rays of Kṛṣṇa, this Brahman, yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam, tad brahma (Bs. 5.40). That Brahman. Brahman is..., just like the sunshine is the expansion of the bodily rays of sun-god.

Room Conversation with Christian Priest -- June 9, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think Bible is on the personal understanding of God. Christ says that he is son of God. Unless one is person, how he can beget a son?

Devotee: They talk about the trilogy—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It is compared like the Father...

Prabhupāda: Bhagavān, Paramātmā, and Brahman, yes. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11), it is the same idea. Brahman, Holy Ghost, is impersonal, but Son is person and God is also person. I do not know much about, but I have heard from Christians that there is assembly of God, and Lord Christ has got a seat by the side of God. Is not that explained?

Devotee: It's on His right hand.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: On his right side he's supposed to be seated.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These are all personal ideas.

Devotee: And they say also, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name."

Prabhupāda: "Hallowed be Thy name."

Room Conversation with Roger Maria leading writer of communist literature -- June 12, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: No, teachings of Bhagavad-gītā means Kṛṣṇa. That is the folly of the so-called scholars. They want to study Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. Just like one wants to play Hamlet without Hamlet. (French, mentions Śaṅkara) Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Does he know that, that Śaṅkara has accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality? (French)

Yogeśvara: So his point is that, well, ultimately, the, now what is going to happen, he says, is we're going to get into a discussion about whether or not the Supreme is a person or impersonal, and he says he doesn't really have the time to get into that.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then? What did he...? Why he come here? What for?

Yogeśvara: We invited him. (laughter) (French)

Devotee: Well, at the end of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Russian Orthodox Church Representative -- June 13, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Still, he is leader?

Karandhara: Yes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: The impersonalists, Lord Caitanya said that they are the greatest offenders to Lord Kṛṣṇa. So most of the so-called religious people of the world today, if they have a conception of God, it is that God is impersonal spirit. Does that mean they are to be classified, at least in terms of this understanding, amongst the demons and asuras?

Karandhara: No, in this instance this man is... It's not as much that he's an impersonalist as that he has no clear idea one way or the other. He's ignorant. An impersonalist is someone in the classic sense who has... He's aware of the Vaiṣṇava philosophy, but he rejects that, that God is definitely not a person, and he takes that as being a lower conception.

Bhagavān: In ignorance, though, even though he's in ignorance, he is hurting people due to his ignorance by... He's claiming to be a teacher, and even though he may be innocent or ignorant, because he's in that position of leader, he's actually hurting people, wasting their life.

French Devotee: He left, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because he was very afraid that we were right.

Bhagavān: He said he had another engagement.

Paramahaṁsa: In the world today it seems as if, just like men take advantage of women and make them topless and bottomless, also they try and encourage people like this to be leaders of religion. That way the mass of people don't take any real interest. They do this in Russia too. They kill the sincere religious leaders, and they put their own men as religious leader, and it just sort of undermines the whole purity and the importance in the instruction, and then no one repeats it.

Karandhara: In the West also, in the past ten years there's been a resurgence of what's called fundamentalism. For so long the Christian liturgy, the Christian doctrine, got so hodge-podge and so wishy-washy that people were leaving because there was simply nothing there solid for them to grasp onto. Now fundamentalism, or the very basic principles that God is the Almighty and that we are sinners and if we don't repent, God's going to strike us down with wrath and anger, that basic principle of fear of God, that is receiving new support. Many people are coming back to that because even though it's a very vague thing, still it's something definite. "God is there, and if I do something wrong, He's going to cut me down," rather than, "Well, nothing's wrong, nothing's right," it's all hodge-podge, wish wash. People can't grasp onto that. There's nothing for them to...

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda, "nothing wrong, nothing right. Everything is all right," Vivekananda's philosophy.

Morning Walk -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "But they also come to Me." So what does this "come to Me" mean? They use this to mean that the same result is there, whether you worship...

Prabhupāda: They come to Me after much trouble. That's all. So a foolish man will take much trouble. And intelligent man will take the short-cut, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). Much trouble means he's a foolish man. And this is also stated, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24). It's clearly stated there that the Absolute Truth is impersonal, but when He comes here, He appears as a person. So this conclusion is for the abuddhayaḥ, less intelligent class of men, poor fund of knowledge. Avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24).

Paramahaṁsa: It seems as if the more one strives to push the movement on, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the more māyā puts obstacles in the way.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Paramahaṁsa: It seems, the more we strive to push the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement forward, the more māyā puts obstacles in the way to stop us.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but as soon as you become strong, naturally there will be more enemies. That is natural. Therefore last night I said, "If there is no understanding of God, where is religion?" This is not religion, the cheating. There cannot be any conception of religion without conception of God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma means the law given by God. So if you have no idea about God, where is your religion? Religion does not mean some formalities. No, that is not religion. Formalities we have also, but we have clear conception of God. Here is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Bhagavān: So you can translate in French so that they can understand.

Prabhupāda: At least Christians cannot believe in impersonal God.

Jyotirmayī: What?

Prabhupāda: Christians, they cannot say that God is impersonal. (French) Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person. How the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said, "There was word in the beginning." That is God's word. So if one has a word, then He's a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then... The Christians pray in the church, "Oh, God, give us our daily bread." So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they're all transcendental, nonmaterial. (French)

Jyotirmayī: So he says he agrees on this point. As you say, God is... We have a personal relationship with God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, God is person. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Absolute Truth is realized from three angles of vision, Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person, and Paramātmā, all-pervading, localized, and Brahman, impersonal. Just like the sunshine is impersonal the sun globe, localized, and the sun-god person.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you'll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmādy asya yataḥ anvayāt itarataś cārtheṣu abhijñaḥ: (SB 1.1.1) "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Vāsudeva who is the origin of all creation." This is the active principle. There is. So... And how He is working? (To Jyotirmayī:) You have to explain. (French) In the beginning of Bhāgavatam, I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation, it will go there. And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijñaḥ, cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then... Of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, "Wherefrom God got knowledge?" Therefore it is stated there, svarāṭ. He hasn't got to take knowledge from anyone else. He's independently full of knowledge. (French)

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That would be impersonal. (French)

Prabhupāda: On the other hand, he imparted knowledge to Brahmā, the first creation of this universe. That knowledge is called Vedic knowledge. That means Vedic knowledge is coming from God. And it is being distributed through Brahmā. And he's so mysterious that even learned scholars become bewildered to understand Him. And this material world, although it is temporary, it appears to be fact on account of energy, being energy of God.

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: No, all three are one. But it is the angle of vision only. Just like a mountain—somebody from distant place looking, hazy clouds, something. The mountain is the same, but from long distance one realizes as hazy cloud. Little more nearer, they realize something green. And if somebody goes in the mountain, he realizes the mountain and the animals and the residential place, everything. The objective is the same, but the angle of vision different. So in India or everywhere, some realizing the Absolute Truth as impersonal, without any variegatedness.

Professor Durckheim: As Buddhists do.

Prabhupāda: Buddhists, they, I think, they... Yes, you are right, impersonal. But their philosophy is to stop all kinds of realization, nirvāṇa. Realization they do not want. They want to stop realization, to become zero. Is it not that?

Professor Durckheim: To become? I didn't understand.

Prabhupāda: Zero.

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Professor Durckheim: Zero, yes. Well, zero from the point of view of the alter ego, but this zero is everything from the outside. From the point of view of the natural ego it's zero, but once you touch it, it's the plenitude, everything. But it's beyond something and everything, as far as I understand it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is beyond. That beyond is realized, as I explained to you, in different angle of vision. Some, impersonal, without any variety, and some, localized Paramātmā, and some, the Supreme Being. As you are sitting, I am sitting, we are talking, so the Absolute Truth is a person, Supreme Person, Supreme Being, and we approach Him, talk with Him, sit with Him, play with Him. That is Kṛṣṇa realization. First of all, negation of the material varieties, then impersonal realization, then localized realization, then personal realization. Just like a diseased man. First of all cure, then healthy activities. A diseased man has got activities. He also eats, he also sleeps, he also evacuates, but all troublesome. Therefore, being disgusted, he wanted to make everything zero. But if he hears that again sleeping, again eating, again evacuating is healthy life, he thinks it is something like his diseased condition. But healthy life is different from diseased life. So some philosophers, they are trying to negate this diseased condition only, without any realization of healthy life. So I think Buddha philosophy is called nirvāṇa, negation of this diseased condition of life, pains and pleasure. Am I right or wrong?

Room Conversation -- June 20, 1974, Germany:

Guest: Under many influences.

Prabhupāda: No, influence should be only Kṛṣṇa or God. Kṛṣṇa, when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, God, but they have no clear idea what is God. How does He speak, how does He act. Where does He live. What is His form. What is his color. Nobody knows. Ask any religious people, "Do you know about all these?" (tape too faint to hear) (indistinct) If they think about it at all. First of all, generally they think of something impersonal or void. The Buddhists they think God is zero. And others they think God has no form. So, two classes. The Hindus they think God has not particular form, (indistinct). And you can imagine any of them(?) That is Śaṅkara. The pañcopāsanā. But still Śaṅkara is very careful. He has given five particular forms—the Goddess Durgā, Lord Viṣṇu, Lord Siva, the sun. Therefore there are sections—the sun worshipers, the fire worshipers. Originally, (indistinct). That is Vedic culture. Their Vedic culture means many demigods. But the original God is accepted, Viṣṇu. And original to Viṣṇu is Kṛṣṇa. īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Kṛṣṇa also says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is no superior form or authority than Me." That is confirmed by Lord Brahmā, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇah (Bs. 5.1). Kṛṣṇa is controller. There are different grades of controller but the supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam, "Unto Me, no one else." Now our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to convince people to give Him our attention, therefore we have published so many books only about Kṛṣṇa. On every page you'll find Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa. Either in Kṛṣṇa Book or in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, or in the Bhāgavatam or in Nectar of Devotion, Teachings of Lord Caitanya. The word(?) is Kṛṣṇa, that is simply explained in the (indistinct).

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1974, Germany:

Professor Durckheim: You know that the Christian theologian, they think the main difference between them and Eastern religions altogether is that the Christian are personalists and Eastern tradition is not personalist. This is the whole...

Prabhupāda: Misconception, yes. The majority of Indian population, they are personalists. Yes, majority. Either they worship God or demigod, but they are personalists. Recently the Māyāvādī philosophers, they have poisoned, the impersonalism, calamity. God is person. It is... In the Veda it is said, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). There are millions of persons. We are all persons. And God is the chief person. Just like in modern democracy, there is no monarch. But ultimately they have to select one president. Without person, there cannot be government. Why they do not remain without a president? Let it... Government, everything is government, impersonal. Why they select a president?

Professor Durckheim: Yes. One who takes lead, yes, sure.