Prabhupāda: The basis of this teaching is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. I have already published my book, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. This book is not new. It is very old book, at least five thousand years old, and it is very widely read all over the world. In your country I have seen there are about more than twenty-five different editions, English. Similarly, there is in German language, in England, in Japan. Everywhere, all over the country this book is very widely known, Bhagavad-gītā. In other words, this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The speaker of this book is Lord Kṛṣṇa, and the subject matter of this book is what is our relationship with God. Then, after understanding what is our relationship with God, we can work accordingly. Just like you are citizen of America, you have got a particular relationship with the state, and you are expected to work according to that relationship, and then you are good citizen, you are law-abiding citizen, and state gives your all protection, and you can improve to the highest perfectional stage. Similarly, if we know our relationship with God, whom we call Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive, and that is the perfect name of God. Unless God is all-attractive, he cannot be God. God cannot be Hindus' God or Christians' God or Jews' God or Mohammedans' God. No. God is for everyone, and He is all-attractive. He is fully opulent. He is fully in knowledge, perfect in knowledge, perfect in beauty, perfect in renunciation, perfect in fame, perfect in strength. In this way He is all attractive. So we must know our relationship with God. That is the first subject matter of this book, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Then if we understand our relationship, we can act accordingly. At the present moment we are, some of us declining God. "There is no God." Some of them have little conception of God, "God is great," but they do not try to understand what is actual relationship with God. They are not very serious. In this way, practically we are avoiding our eternal relationship with God, and therefore we cannot act properly, and that is the cause of all miseries. That is the cause of all problems. Just like if you do not know the state laws, then you do not act properly. You are always criminal. For example, if you do not know how to drive, "keep to the right," if you drive to the left, you may think, "Oh, it is after all driving. What does it matter, right or left?" But no. As soon as you drive left, you become criminal. Similarly, because we do not know our relationship with God, therefore we are acting wrongly, and therefore, under the laws of God, we are becoming more and more criminal and our problems are increasing. Therefore, in spite of advancement of education, science, civilization, a nice dress, car, and everything, nobody trusts nobody. You see? Everywhere you go, a gentleman's house, oh, "Beware of the dog," "No trespasser allowed." Always suspicious. An individual person is suspicious of another individual person. A nation is suspicious of another nation. A community is suspicious of another community. So how can you have peace and prosperity? Suspiciousness means animal, animalistic. A dog is suspicious of another dog. As soon as it finds another dog, immediately begins to bark." Row! Row! Row!" So is that human civilization? So what is the mistake of the human civilization? The mistake of the human civilization is that they have forgotten the relationship with God. So here is the scientific statement of our relationship with God. And then, according to that relationship, exactly in the same way, just like understanding your relationship, your citizenship in a state you can act nicely, similarly if we know our relationship with God, we can act very nicely and that is peaceful life.
Human civilization (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: The symptoms of Kali-yuga have already begun, five thousand years past. And it will increase. (break) ...proud of advancing, but these things are important items of human civilization. They are decreasing. (break)
Mālatī: ...world now where people, they already, if they live to be twenty-five or thirty, like you explained last night, that was a ripe old age. There are tribes in the world where people live to the age of thirty, and that is considered a ripe age. That is considered old age. And they usually die about thirty or thirty-two.
Prabhupāda: Where?
Mālatī: In places in South America and Africa. So now, as the age of Kali progresses, will those people just eventually be diminished and wiped out because they already live so short?
Prabhupāda: Not wiped out. Nothing is wiped out. The species remain. Maybe somewhere, maybe somewhere else. Nothing is wiped out.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or both. You might get both.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen, they have spoken like that. Because the patient will think, "Oh, I take injection, I'll be very quickly cured." He will canvass like that. Because if he gives a bottle of medicine, that will not be very costly. But injection in his hand, he'll (have) at least five rupees, that much. So he'll canvass like that, "What kind of treatment you want, injection or ordinary medicine." So he'll say, "Sir, best medicine I want." "Then you take injection." That's all. It is a fact that the whole human civilization is a society of cheaters and cheated. That's all. Any field. mayaiva vyavaharite. The whole world in this Kali-yuga: mayaiva vyavaharite. Vyavaharite means ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. Ordinarily, there will be cheating. Daily affairs. Not to speak of very great things. Ordinary dealings, there will be cheating. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, mayaiva vyavahari. The sooner you get out of this scene is better. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So long you live, you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and preach Kṛṣṇa's glories, and that's all. Otherwise, you should know that this is a dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ (SB 10.14.58). In every step there is danger.
Mālatī: This lecture was recorded in Gorakhpur, U.P., India, on the evening of Feb. 14, 1970 (end)
Prabhupāda: No, that is...
Sister Mary: Your mind can be filled with this kind of sin.
Prabhupāda: Irritated... If your mind is in peace... If you are not indulging in intoxication, gambling, illicit sex, then your mind will not be irritated. How a gambler can be in peaceful mind? That is not possible. How a drunkard can be in peaceful mind? Agitation is for them who are simply engaged in sinful life. Those who are not engaged in sinful life, naturally they are peaceful. Their mind is not agitated. Vegetarians are naturally peaceful. Just see between a dog and a cow. (laughter). Dog unnecessarily will talk: "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" (makes barking sound) without any fault. "Why you are here? Why you are here? Why you are here?" That is dog's qualification. A cow, so useful animal, it will never agitate. The dog has no use, but still he's the best friend. (laughter) And cow, actually giving us milk, sending to the slaughterhouse. Just see. This is human civilization. A dog is worshiped, and a cow is slaughtered. Do you think it is civilization? Do you think? Can you support this?
Sister Mary: Well, I had a friend who was a vegetarian...
Prabhupāda: No, apart from this, these two animals. One is dog, and another is cow. So dog is worshiped and cow is sent to the slaughterhouse. What kind of civilization it is? Huh?
Haṁsadūta: Animal.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. (indistinct) civilized activity is going on on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). (indistinct) everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The karmīs, they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet. Enjoying here nicely, but they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies, and pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to Vedas. Everywhere we go, material... These people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable. Therefore, Bhagavad-gītā says that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Intelligent person will see that "However comfortable I may be, I have to meet death." And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34), "I am death." Death means to take away. Whatever you create, it will be taken away.
Dr. Singh: But is it not possible when the Upaniṣads, when they talk of this (indistinct). So if you... What does that mean?
Prabhupāda: That means you become purified of this material body and you regain your spiritual body. Yogam.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guru dāsa: About this tape recording.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not the question of "the Chinese are eating, I am not eating." It is a question that how many number of different types of body I got. It is not that I am talking of Chinaman eating man or dog. I may be in this form, next life. So, therefore, the problem is how to stop this transmigration of the soul. That is the problem. Not that because the Chinese man eats something else other than I eat, that does not mean that I am very much... (break) Therefore, we have to prepare ourself what kind of body we are going to have next. That is human civilization. But they do not believe in the transmigration of the soul. They do not believe in God. They do not believe in anything. Simply just like animals. This life—eating, sleeping, mating—do it to your best capacity. That is Kali-yuga. They have no knowledge, neither they are interested to know. Mandāḥ. And even they become little interested of spiritual..., a hodgepodge, no clear idea. Mandāḥ sumanda matayo (SB 1.1.10). And unfortunate, harassed in every field of life. And hy upadrutāḥ. And over and above everything, they are always disturbed by external enemies. This is the position of Kali-yuga. And this life shortened, duration of life. So how they can advance by following the regular Vedic process? It is not possible. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). No car?
Śyāmasundara: Not yet come.
Prabhupāda: Temple must have. Even ordinary gṛhastha. That is Vedic civilization, not that we cook for ourself, for my husband, for my wife and children, eat it sumptuously and go to bed. No. Even gṛhastha, he should be always prepared to receive guest. Yes. And even a guest comes, your enemy, you should receive him in such a nice way that he will forget that you are all enemies. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. This is Vedic civilization, not that "Beware of dog. Please don't enter here. You are forbidden to come here. And if you come, I shall shoot you." Sometimes they do that. This is not human civilization. It is cats' and dogs' civilization. So actually we are teaching what is human civilization. But we must be also like human being, not cats and dogs. Otherwise how can you teach? If I am like cats and dogs, I cannot criticize others as cats and dogs. I must be first of all human being. Then I shall teach others how to become human being. I must become first of all devotee. Then I shall request others to become devotee. Āpani ācari jīve śikhāilā bhakti. First behave yourself perfectly; then teach others to become perfect. That is preacher. Now we are selling The Process of Creation but if I do not know what is the process of creation, we do not read, if you go to sell some book, then if he says, "What is the process of creation? You explain," and if you say, "All right, let me consult my book..." Kuto gata vedyaḥ para-hasta-gataṁ dhānam. Para-hasta-gataṁ dhānam means, "I have got enough wealth." "Where it is?" "It is in other hands. It is not in my possession, in others' possession." This kind of possessing wealth has no value. Similarly, when somebody asks you some question, if you say, "Let me consult my book," that knowledge has no value. "Let me consult my book." So all these books are there. You see one śloka studying, knowing. It takes one hour. So there are millions of ślokas. How much you have to study. So these things are to be noted. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means perfection, all round perfection. Then people will much appreciate. There is no doubt about it. And we can go anywhere, everywhere, because we are pure. We are giving the right thing. So is there any artist here who can draw? You can?
Cintāmaṇi: Little bit.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee: Your explanation you've just given was so clear, Prabhupāda. We can easily see. It's so clear.
Prabhupāda: (chuckling) Yes, this is the explanation. There is no second explanation. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). This is the only explanation. What explanation can you... Who can give another explanation? There is no second explanation. Bhagavad-bhakti-hīnasya jātiḥ śāstraṁ japas tapaḥ, aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam. It's like if you decorate the dead body. It may be pleasing to some relatives of the dead body, otherwise what is the value of it? Others will think, "What a foolish man, he is, that decorating the dea..." Suppose if there is dead body and you're decorating (indistinct) flower. That may be your sentiment because the dead body belongs to your father or mother, like that. It is pleasing to you, but actually what is the value? So similarly, this human civilization is meant for understanding God. If that sense is lacking then it is simply decoration of the dead body. That's all. There is no value.
Prabhupāda: There are forms of body in the water, in the land, so many trees, plants and there are so many insects, reptiles. Then birds, then there are beasts, then there are human being. So there are 8,400,000 forms of body. Here it is indicated that after giving up this body, the soul is going to accept another body. Now the human civilization, is it not duty of the human society to know what kind of body I am going to accept?
Scholar: No, I think it's up to God and karma-kāṇḍa.
Prabhupāda: So then they must know what is karma-phala. This is a fact. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). But they are..., do not know how to execute karma. They're doing all kinds of sinful activities. So, suppose after this body, on account of my sinful activities, I am going to become a rat or cat or snake or a tree, then what is the use of my so much, how you'd say, jumping over nationalism and this ism and that. If by nature I am going to accept next life the body of a cat and dog, or a tree, then what is the meaning of my, this so-called nationality at the present moment? Is it not the duty of the guardians who are taking care of the people or their son, to educate human being in such a way that they can get better body? What is that education? You are darkness, nobody knows what kind of body he's going to accept next life.
Lord Brockway: I think the only thing I'd say is this, that whilst the body that you have and I have is different from the body, the material body, when we were a child, it has been a continuous transformation. It hasn't been the ending of one body and the beginning of another. And in the process of change, a, an existence is carried on. It isn't like death, which means that at that point your personality becomes separated from your physical body suddenly, like that. It is different.
Prabhupāda: No. We become separated from the physical body, but we remain in the astral body, or subtle body, mind, intelligence... mind, intelligence and ego. That mind, material mind, material intelligence, you give up when you actually remain in your spiritual body. So this is also a great science. But unfortunately, there is no discussion on this point in any university of the world. But this is a science. So actual human civilization means they should study, they should inquire about this science and be well conversant. And that is the human... Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra it is said that human beings should be interested to this science first. Because animals cannot inquire about this science. The animals, they are simply interested how to eat. So similarly, if a man also simply interested in economic development which means how to eat, how to sleep... That is also there in the animal kingdom. They are trying in their own way. But they have no problem. We have created problem. In the morning, we are thinking, "How to get such and such thing?" But a bird, beast, he has no such anxiety. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that you cannot get more or less. That is already destined. So don't spoil your time in getting more. Because... The example is given that nobody wants unhappiness, or some disaster. But the disaster comes, unhappiness comes. We have experience in our life. Nobody tries for that: "Let disaster come upon me. Let there be fire in my house." No. But the fire takes place. So similarly, because you are destined to some unhappiness and happiness, that will come, either happiness or unhappiness. You don't bother for that. There is already program, according to the material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). You save your time. You simply try how to get out of this dangerous position of repetition of birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. That should be your endeavor.
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. Sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
- mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya
- śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
- āgamāpāyino 'nityās
- tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
- (BG 2.14)
If one is engaged in his cultivation of spiritual life, then he should tolerate all these bodily pains and pleasure. Because they come and go. Just like you are medical man, you treat, some patient. Suppose he's attacked with fever. Everyone knows that fever has come; after some time, it will go away. So the one who is cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's not very much disturbed with fever. He knows that it has come, it will go automatically. If we fast for few days. There is a Bengali proverb, jvaranpar ketanadali palab...(?) If you receive one unwanted guest and fever, you don't give him eat. Then it will go away. Unwanted guest, if you do not give him food, he'll go away. Even a fever also, if you don't eat, it will go automatically. So after all, these things come and go. The example is given, śīta-uṣṇa. Śīta means winter and uṣṇa means summer. As the summer comes and go, winter comes and go, so these kinds of sufferings, they come and go. So Kṛṣṇa is advising, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Therefore a brāhmaṇa's qualification is titikṣa. Śamo damaḥ śaucaṁ titikṣa, toleration. They're not very much bothered with the bodily pains and pleasure. They come and go. They're engaged in real business, how to realize Brahman. So if one is engaged in the prime business of life, Brahman understanding, athāto brahma jijñāsā, for him these bodily pains and pleasure becomes minor things. Therefore, we see such examples, that one saintly person is living in the Himalayan mountain. There is snowfall, there is no proper place, still they live. Still, there are many. But nowadays it is not possible. Voluntarily, they used to go to the forest, to the Himalaya, just to tolerate these pains and pleasure of the body equally and engage in their own business of spiritual understanding. That is human civilization. Human civilization, that is described, tapo divyam. For the supreme spiritual realization one should undergo tapasya. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). It is the instruction of Rṣabhadeva that this body... Everyone has got body, cats and dogs and hogs, they have got body. We have also body.
Śyāmasundara: You, you dreaming?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru Mahārāja said, "Come, come with me." I was going. But that... Many things happened before this. Yes. And at last it became, in America.
Śyāmasundara: Did you tell everyone you were leaving, or you simply disappeared?
Prabhupāda: No, I never said. Oh, why shall I? I lost all friends, money, everything.
Guru dāsa: I met one gentleman from Allahabad... (Apparently someone comes in)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Guru dāsa: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Get this light. (break) ...to this point, and you have joined. Do it nicely. It is the greatest movement for making the whole human civilization happy. Take it seriously. Don't...
Tejas: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mister S. Domi(?) Singh, he's a... (end)
Prabhupāda: Actually they eat all rubbish, but they think like.... It is a misguided civilization.
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So we are practically against all this misguidance of the human civilization.
Guest: I know.
Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas te 'pīṣa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Blind men leading other blind me, this is going on.
Guest: I was suggesting, we have got this, ah.... What you call that flower? (indistinct)
Devotee:: (indistinct)
Guest: No, no, what you call that (indistinct) that flower came?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest: White flower, fragrant flower, it is called Parajit.
Devotee: Pārijāta.
Guest: Pārijāta.
Lady Guest: Pārijāta.
Guest: Pārijāta flower, no? We have got a plant. If you want for this you can have.
Prabhupāda: No, a Pārijāta plant is not here. It is not possible.
Karandhara: And enjoy, enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is done by the pigs. Whole day, finding out "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he eats some stool, gets some fat, "Where is sex? Never mind, mother, sister, or daughter. Come on, sex." This is pig life, pig civilization. It is not human civilization. This kind of behavior is found amongst the pigs, amongst the dogs. Do you think we have to create a human society like the pigs' society? At the present moment, they're eating anything and everything like pigs, and they're having sex with anyone, never mind. So it is a pig society. There is no discrimination. (break) ...the most popular thing is this drinking, eating meat and drinking wine. Is that to be accepted because it is very popular?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they use transcendental meditation...
Prabhupāda: What is this transcendental meditation? They do not know. The another cheater, and he's big amongst the cheated. That's all.
Bali Mardana: There's nothing transcendental about it.
Yaśomatīnandana: But they call it "transcendental."
Prabhupāda: They can call anything. Just like... Just like...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's now taught almost over all of the universities now here.
Prabhupāda: ...two classes of men: the communist and the non-communist. Not exactly communist and capitalist, but communist and non-communist. Out of these two, the communists are going to be powerful. This is the world tendency. So if the world becomes full of communists, then the human civilization will be finished. All rogues and rascals, that's all. The American government wants to check this tendency. But they cannot check it if they remain "so-called trust in God." That will not be possible. So according to our proposition... Not only now, it is forever. Two classes of men are there: sura and asura. Surāsura. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved devaḥ. Deva and sura, the same thing. Asuras tad viparyayaḥ. And the asura, or the demons, godless. So if the Americans remain godless in the name of so-called trust in God, they will not be able to check this communistic movement. They will not be able. Now, if they are serious to check this communistic movement, save the American country as well as the whole world, then they must be very serious to understand what is God and what is trust in God. Otherwise this communistic movement will finish the civilized human society. So you are thoughtful. They must be very serious about it. And this is the only movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which can make all people actually trust in God and explain what is meant by God. Demons, they... If the communists are demons and the capitalists are also demons, fighting between demons, there will be war and loss of life, but nobody will come out victorious. That is going on. There is occasional world war, but the situation of the world remains the same. No party has become able to change the situation of the world. What do you think, Karandhara?
Karandhara: No, no significant change.
Prabhupāda: Simply they fight and loss of life and money, energy. War must be for the good. If there is some war, it must be for some good. But where is that goodness? The world remains the same; rather, it becomes more worst. Then why fight? But they will fight. Because both of them demons, they will fight. But not for any good result. War means... War is not bad. Just like disease. If somebody is diseased, then he becomes healthy. The whole polluted situation of the body becomes repaired. Just like when you get a boil or dysentery, all the poisons of the body, they become purged out. Then your health becomes nice. That is the law, nature's law. Similarly, war or famine or pestilence, they are meant for purging out all undesirable men. But the demonic principle is so strong that it is not becoming so. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Make this approach. The Americans have placed in their constitution, "In God we Trust." It should be done very scientifically and philosophically, what is God and what is that trust, not a vague idea. Vague ideas will not help. They will not be able to conquer over the atheistic world. Actually, if there is organized party who believe in God factually, then this demon class of men will always be vanquished. Yes. Just like there was war between the surāsura, demigods and the asuras. God, Viṣṇu, took side of the demigods and came out victorious. But if both of them are demons, why Viṣṇu will take side of anyone of them? "You fight and go to hell." That is going on.
Prabhupāda: Very good theologician. A rascal number one. You are trying for becoming happy, and his theory is that man will accept suffering. You see? The very proposition is rascaldom. Everyone is trying for to become happy. That is progress. Ātyantika. In Sanskrit it is called ātyantika-duḥkha-nivṛttiḥ. There is suffering, and our struggle for existence means to, I mean to say, mitigate the suffering, to minimize or to make it nil. That is our struggle. We are not submitting to suffering. Then what is the civilization? What is human civilization: We don't want suffering. That is our position. Why this rascal says that "We shall suffer"? Just see. The theologician is a rascal. Therefore we say everyone rascal.
Prajāpati: The same theologician, Prabhupāda, he calls himself an atheist theist.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Candanācārya: He said, "I am an atheist theist."
Prabhupāda: Atheist theist? What is this?
Prajāpati: Just rascal, double talk.
Prabhupāda: Another rascal. Another rascal proposition.
Prajāpati: If we were there and we could make one speech in front of that assembled Congress and Senate, the main government of the United States, what were the main points we would stress?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The main point is that "In God we trust," on this slogan... So the same point that, "What do you mean by God and what do you mean by trust? That you do not know." So you have to explain what is God and what is trust, thoroughly, from our books. Our point of propaganda should be that "It is very good that you write this slogan, 'In God we trust,' but nobody has got clear conception of God; neither they do not know what is the meaning of trust. Under the circumstances, so you have to learn it scientifically. And our propaganda is like that, to teach actually what is God and what is trust. And you important men of the state, you come forward, try to understand, and open schools, colleges. Make it perfectly known what is God. And make America strong. As the Communist party, they are preaching godlessness, now America should preach, 'No, in God we trust.' Now there should be a fight, not on the political point of view, but actually it includes everything. A class of men godless and a class of men who knows God. There should be fight. Then there will be peace in the world. The class of men who do not believe in God, they should be punished, because they are creating all the troubles. A man who trusts in God, he is the ideal man. He will never create any trouble. Therefore this science should be learned very scientifically. And we are prepared. And you also must be able to teach them. Then it will be successful." (Aside:) You leave little aloof. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. "Anyone who does not know what is God and does not know how to trust in God, he is animal. So how you can expect a human civilization composed of some animals? That you have to learn from us. If you are serious. If you simply make it a slogan, but you remain same as the man who does not know what is God, then what is the meaning of this slogan? That will not help you." Just like sometimes they put the signboard, "Goodman and Company," businessmen. The signboard is "Goodman," but he is cheating simply, from business point of view. That kind of signboard will not help you.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Indian: Yeah, good.
Prabhupāda: But no hammer. Only this... What is called?
Devotees: Sickle.
Prabhupāda: No hammer. That will be our emblem. Only sickle. Not hammer. The hammer has hammered the whole human civilization. So just make a counter-emblem. The communists will appreciate.
Devotee: Sickle and tilaka.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: A sickle, and then a tilaka.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good idea. Guptajī? Come here. (Hindi)
Gupta: (Hindi for few sentences)
Prabhupāda: Rascal civilization, rascal government. And people are transferred into rascals. (Hindi) Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Without anna, how they can live? There is no arrangement for anna. They're simply passing resolution, legislative laws. And no anna. Just see what kind of wretched government it is. Everywhere. There is no anna. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. The first duty of government is to see that everyone is happy, without any anxiety. These preliminary necessities of life, āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithunam, there must be sufficient arrangement for these preliminary necessities of life. One must eat sumptuously. Not over-eating, indulgence. No. But he must have sufficient food to keep up the health. Similarly, he must have place to sleep. We, we are prepared to offer everything. And be Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our mission. Not by eating and sleeping, become rogues and thieves and rascals. That we will not allow. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. (Hindi conversation for a few sentences) Why unemployment? There is no scarcity (of) water. Just have a big well. Electricity pump water. Oh, immediately, it will be all green. Immediately. (Hindi for a while) Jayo! Hare Kṛṣṇa! (break) ...all round, for the benefit of the human society. You'll be honored everywhere. Everywhere, any part of the world. And automatically these bogus avatāra, incarnations, God, and yogis and swamis will be all doomed. You see? These rascal society, avatāra, "Bhagavān," incarnations, yogis, these rascals will be doomed.
Yogeśvara: One problem that seems to be occurring more and more frequently is the appearance of terrorists, that is to say, men who are motivated for some political, mostly political reasons.
Prabhupāda: Yes the whole basic principle I have already explained. Because they are animals, so sometimes ferocious animal. That's all. Animal, there are different types of animals. Tigers and lions, they are ferocious animal. But you live in the animal society. So animal society, some, another animal comes as very ferocious, that is not very astonishing. After all, you are living in animal society. So you become human being, ideal. This is the only solution. We have already declared, this is animal society. If some ferocious animal comes out, so where is the astonishment? After all, it is animal society. Either a tiger comes or elephant comes, they are all animals. That's all. But you don't become animal. Counteract. That is required. Then after... A human being is called rational animal. If you come to the rationality, that is required. If you remain also another animal, another type of animal, that will not help you. You have to become actually human being. But durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. You have to... These people they have no aim of life. What is the aim of human..., they do not know. So their animal propensities are being adjusted this way, that way, this way, that way. Just like they go to see naked dance. The animal propensity—he is seeing his wife daily naked, and still he is going to see naked dance, and paying some fees. Because they have no engagement except this animalism. Is it not? So what is the use of going to see another woman naked? You are seeing every day, every night, your wife naked. Why you are... Because they have no other engagement. The animals. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). That a dog, it does not know what is the taste. He is simply chewing the, one bone, this way, that way, this way, that way. Because he is animal. He has no other engagement. So this whole society is animal. Especially the westerners. And they have developed a civilization on that animal propensities, means "I am this body, and the best use of my life is to gratify senses." This is animal. "I am this body." Body means the senses. "And to satisfy the senses is the highest perfection." This is their civilization. So you have to introduce real human civilization. You should not be surprised, an animal, in different shapes, in different capacity, comes out. After all, he is an animal. The basic principle is animalism. Because he is thinking, "I am this body..." As the dog is thinking, "I am dog, very stout and strong dog," so another man is thinking, "I am big nation." But what is the basic principle? A dog is also thinking on the basis of his body, and this big nation is also thinking on the basis of body. So there is no difference between this dog and this big nation. The only difference is that human being, by nature's gift, he got better senses. So... And he has no power, or there is no education to utilize the better senses, how to advance spiritually and get out of this material world. That he has no sense. He is simply using that better intelligence for animalism. This is the meaning. He has no education how to utilize the better intelligence. Therefore he is utilizing only in animalism. And people all over the world, when they see the westerners, "They are advanced." What is that? Advancing in animalism. Basic principle remains the animalism. They become surprised. They also imitate. So they are expanding animalism, animal civilization. Now we have to counteract for the benefit of the human civilization.
Dhanañjaya: Just like in the forest. The animals, they select the lion to be the king.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. That is condemned. One who is not God-conscious, one who does not know that he is not body, he is animal. That's all. Maybe in different dress, in different... So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the western mode of life, still, so many western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite. "You are drunkard; no drink. You are illicit sex hunters; no illicit sex." So I am just speaking opposite, from the beginning of my preaching. So why you are coming? So if you stick to your position, real human civilization, people will come, gradually. Because they have got the sense. When we say others are animals, demons, we don't say whimsically, capriciously, no. On the basis of sound knowledge. Therefore our declaration is completely right. We are not mental speculators, that I say some gentleman, "You are animal." No. I see, I know, that he is animal. Therefore I say. A man is running his motorcar, (makes sound) rarararara, and a dog is running. We don't see any difference, although he is on the motorcar. We don't find any difference. He is as good as the dog. Unnecessarily he is running. What is the meaning of running of the dog?
Dhanañjaya: Actually the man is making more noise than the dog.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our life is so nice. We are satisfied with eating Kṛṣṇa prasādam and chant whole day and night Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. What is the use of this industry and trade. And transport and politics. There is no need. Anartha. It is called anartha, unwanted things.
- anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād
- bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje
- lokasyājānato vidvāṁś
- cakre sātvata-saṁhitām
- (SB 1.7.6)
These are all anarthas, unwanted things. So to stop these anarthas is bhakti-yoga. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya. These rascals, they do not know. Therefore vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Vidvān, the most learned man Vyāsadeva has written this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
- anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād
- bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje
- lokasyājānato vidvāṁś
- cakre sātvata-saṁhitām
- (SB 1.7.6)
This is all described. First of all, the first defect is that you are eternal spirit soul. Why you should be entangled with this material body? That is the first fault. That is anartha. I am spirit soul. Why shall I accept this material body? That is my basic principle of unwanted things. And to make solution how to get out of this material entanglement. And that is... Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). After leaving this body, now this is the last, and then I am not coming to this material world. How? Simply by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. The Bhāgavata says that "One should not become parent, father and mother, one should not become guru, one should not become friend, one should not become husband"—these are the guardians—"if one cannot release his dependent from this repetition of birth and death." This is civilization. This is civilization. Not that "I am now human being; I shall become demigod. Or I am dog, I shall become human being." The karmīs, they are thinking this is advancement. This is not advancement. Real advancement: no more accepting any material body. That is the real advancement. Just finish. This sense can come in human form of life, that "I have suffered so much. I have come through so many species of life. Now I have got sense." So the reply is there that mām upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvataṁ nāpnuvanti: (BG 8.15) "Anyone who comes to Me, he does not come again to this miserable condition of material existence." We should take advantage of this. That is human civilization. What is this human civilization? Jumping like dog, in a motorcar, that's all. This is not civilization. This is dog civilization, that's all. And actually what benefit they have derived? They are not satisfied. One man has got this car, and next year another car, another car. And the car manufacturer also giving fashion. "This is 1974 edition, this is 1975 edition." And they are earning money with hard labor. "All right, get a motorcar." And again, next year change. What is this civilization? No satisfaction. They do not know where is the point of satisfaction. It is dog civilization.
Prabhupāda: And according to Hindu system, the marriage was taking place finding, examining the girl's constitution and the boy's constitution so that there may not be disruption. Everything was there.
Yogeśvara: The Vedic system is so scientific.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. That is human civilization. That is Āryan civilization. Vedic civilization means Āryan.
Yogeśvara: Hitler also wanted to produce a pure breed of Āryans, but artificially. He just said anyone who is German-born, they are the pure Āryans.
Prabhupāda: But so much freedom in sex, how the blood can be pure? (break)
Yogeśvara: ...but Kṛṣṇa-prasādam?
Prabhupāda: Then he's neutral always. He's not affected by all these qualities.
Yogeśvara: I guess the blood becomes purified like that. (break)
Prabhupāda: I said that "You scientists, you are simply wasting time." Did I not say that, last night?
Yogeśvara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Childish. Just imitating barking of the dog. That's all. And he wants to take credit by imitating barking the dog. And the real dog is barking—no attention. Actually, that is the position.
Prabhupāda: But human life is meant for austere and patience. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). Austerity, penance, that is human life. Otherwise, it is animal life. Simply animal civilization. It is not human civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (car is in gas station, conversation in car about how much gas to get, etc.) (break) ...progressing, they stand their own position, as they are made by nature. Therefore there is no criminality. They are under full control of nature. We are also under full control of nature, but we have been given little concession: to cultivate spiritual knowledge. So that intelligence, extra intelligence, what we have got, instead of cultivating spiritual knowledge, we are using in the same process of sense gratification like the animals. And this, this business, this, means animalistic business in a polished way, is going on as civilization. Actually, it is animalistic. But it is little decorated or polished, and they have accepted, "This is civilization." In other words, they do not know what is human civilization. They do not know. They're animals. They do not know. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (about getting gas:) For this service, they do charge anything? No.
Bhagavān: No. (more conversation with gas station attendant, etc.) (break) It is very known that the family is very strong, the family attachment is very strong. In America, people separate from the family very early. And in France, the family attachment is so strong. And many people, many families have come and asked us if we will be able to open school here for their children too. The interest is there. Everyone is afraid of this present system of schooling. Because they send their children there, and they come back so crazy.
Prabhupāda: Rogues. Rogues. After education, they are rogues only (pause) (break)
Bhagavān: ...take breakfast a little earlier. Is that O.K? And then this other gentleman can come with us and we can go faster that way. Because their truck is slow. (break) ...human being, those who have system of religion? Is that what makes them civilized? So the society today, even though it seems to be technologically advanced, can that society be called civilized? No.
Prabhupāda: So long technological advancement is meant for bodily comforts, so, so long one remains in the bodily concept of life, he's animal.
Professor Durckheim: And eating each other without complex.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have problem. They are killing only. The human society, they should be advanced so much that even the birds, they have nothing to kill for their eating. They have got sufficient food. And we are advanced human being. We are killing for eating instead of God giving us so much food, enough food. And they are still puffed up with advanced civilization. They have not even human feeling. These poor cows, they are giving us milk, the most nutritious food, and we can prepare so many nice nutritious foodstuff. So let them live. And if I want to eat at all, let it die. Then we shall eat. Why kill it? So they have no common sense. And they are leading the sinful life; still, they are very much proud of their civilization. And they are suffering periodical wars, war number one, war number two, war number three. This number will increase. Not only... Without war, thousands of children are being killed within the womb. This is going on. If you kill, then you be killed. This is nature's reaction. You will be killed within the womb. You will never see the sunlight. Again you die, again enter another womb, and again be killed. This has increased in modern society. Even the father, mother does not want to see the child living: "Kill him." And a few days, few years after, we shall kill each other. So they are not afraid of any sinful life. You see? The nature will not tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will not tolerate. God will not tolerate, because God claims, "I am the father of everyone." So suppose if a very intelligent son kills another son of the father, he is not intelligent, will the father be very happy? A father is father for the intelligent son and the fool son. But if the intelligent son thinks that "The fool son is useless. Let me kill him," the father will not be satisfied. So God is the supreme father, and He will never tolerate that "Because you are intelligent, you are allowed to kill another unintelligent living being." No. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā: (ISO 1) "Whatever foodstuff I have given to you, you eat then, live and be God conscious." The animals, they are not coming to eat your foodstuff, your fruits. They are, rather, producing milk not for drinking themselves. They are giving you, and you have no obligation? The milk produced by the cows, it is taken by the human being. They do not drink it. So they are giving milk. And after death, you are taking their skin. So every way they are serving. The stool, cowdung, we have stacked here. I have seen. There also fertilizer. In so many ways they are giving you service, and you are killing the poor animal. What is the human civilization? Therefore Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal killing first. When there was too much animal killing, the incarnation of Lord Buddha was there to stop animal killing. In Buddhism there is no animal killing. Although they are now killing animals, but originally Buddha religion means non-violence. Also Lord Christ also said, "Thou shalt not kill." And Kṛṣṇa says, ahiṁsā. So in no religion unnecessary killing of animals is allowed. Even in Mohammedans, they are also... Kurvāni. Kurvāni means they can kill animals once in a year in the Mosque. So everywhere animal killing is restricted.
Professor Durckheim: For eating vegetables, for instance, you need it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the law of nature, that every living being is eating another living being. That is stated in the Vedic śāstra.
- ahastāni sahastānām
- apadāni catuṣ-padām
- phalgūni tatra mahatāṁ
- jīvo jīvasya jīvanam
That "Those who have no hands—that means animals—they are food for the animal who has got hands. And those who have no legs, they are food for the four-legged." Just like grass has no legs, but it is a food fo the cows and the goats. Apadāni catuṣ-padām, phalgūni tatra mahatām: "Then one who is powerful, very powerful..." Just like tiger, he jumps over another animal. So because the other animal is weak and this animal is strong, so in this way, the feeding is going on, one living being for the other. But when you come to the... That is nature. The tiger will never eat grass. But we human being, we eat grass, goat, cows and everything. Because advanced, so-called advanced. But our foodstuff is to accept the remnants of foodstuff which is eaten by Kṛṣṇa. That is our philosophy. Kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Just like in this temple, we don't eat anything. Neither we eat grass, neither we eat animals. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasāda. So Kṛṣṇa says that "You give Me these foodstuffs." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). So we are not eating on the material platform. We are eating on the spiritual platform. Because we are eating, if there is anything sinful, that is Kṛṣṇa's. We are taking His remnants of foodstuff. So this is our philosophy. We don't advocate vegetarianism or nonvegetarianism. We advocate, "Eat Kṛṣṇa's prasādam, the remnants of foodstuff which is offered to Kṛṣṇa." This is our philosophy. And apart from this philosophy, because one living entity is food for another living entity, it does not mean that I shall eat my children also. There is discretion, that human being, they should offer these fruits, vegetables, milk as it is prescribed in the śāstra to God, Kṛṣṇa, and take. That is human civilization, not for the satisfaction of the tongue we have to maintain big, big slaughterhouse and eat them. No, that is not human civilization. The main business of the human society is to understand God, and as soon as he understands God, he understands that every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Then how we can eat? That because Kṛṣṇa eats, Kṛṣṇa allows, then we eat. So responsibility is Kṛṣṇa's. This is our philosophy.
German devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these gentlemen are professors from the Theological Philosophical University. And this is Doctor Zara (?). He is the leader for the society of yoga and integral philosophical studies in Germany.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is very fortunate to see so many big men at a time. So we were also talking to this doctor about this philosophy, how human civilization should be conducted. I was explaining to Professor that at the present moment, not at the present moment, always in this material world, we do not know what is the goal of life. We have got different philosophies, different mode of life, because we do not know what is the goal of life. If the goal of life is... (break) ...then everything is solved. Now it is very good fortune that you are all present. What is the goal of life? That is my submission. Human life is there, human intelligence is there. So what is the goal of life to achieve? The goal of life cannot be different. That is one. That is, we take from Vedic literature, this goal of life is to understand what is God. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). (aside:) That is one. You serve it out. So we are missing the point, that we do not know what is the goal of life. Different persons, different philosophers, they have got different proposition of the goal of life. Similarly, different politician also. But we think the goal of life is one, to understand God. Then everything is solved. Self-realization. (pause) And we are writing all these books. These books will be finished in eighty volumes. And already we have published fourteen volumes only. And small books also, many, about two dozen. But our only writing is the goal of life, Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Translation?
Cāru: There is one more verse.
- āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhāḥ
- kāma-krodha-parāyaṇāḥ
- īhante kāma-bhogārtham
- anyāyenārtha-sañcayān
- (Bg. 16.11-12)
"They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification."
Prabhupāda: Then? Next.
Cāru:
- idam adya mayā labdham
- imaṁ prāpsye manoratham
- idam astīdam api me
- bhaviṣyati punar dhanam
- asau mayā hataḥ śatrur
- haniṣye cāparān api
- īśvaro 'ham ahaṁ bhogī
- siddho 'haṁ balavān sukhī
- āḍhyo 'bhijanavān asmi
- ko 'nyo 'ti sadṛśo mayā
- yakṣye dāsyāmi modiṣya
- ity ajñāna-vimohitāḥ
- (Bg. 16.13-15)
Translation: "The demoniac person thinks: 'So much wealth do I have today, and I will gain more according to my schemes.' "
Prabhupāda: Next. Next bank balance. Then?
Cāru: " 'So much is mine now and it will increase in the future, more and more. He is my enemy, and I have killed him; and my other enemy will also be killed. I am the lord of everything, I am the enjoyer, I am perfect, powerful and happy. I am the richest man, surrounded by aristocratic relatives. There is none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall perform sacrifices, I shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice.' In this way, such persons are deluded by ignorance."
Prabhupāda: Just like Hitler, Napoleon. They thought like that.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He feels that there are different philosophies and different methods...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. There are different medical men and difficult diagnoses, but the urgent case is: cure the driver, and then car will go on nicely. Unfortunately, modern civilization, they do not know what is the driver. And how he will keep him sane? He does not know what is the driver? He thinks the car is automatically going on. Just like child. A child sees the car is going automatically, but that's not a fact. There is a driver. So if our vision is childish, how we can solve the problems of life? I talked with big, big professor, Kotovsky, in Moscow. He said, "There is no driver." This is a big professor, and he is teaching others. So if the leading men of the world, they think there is no driver, the body is automatically going, then what is the fate of the civilization? (break) No, there are, similarly, capitalists, communists, "this-ists," "that-ists." Full of these rascals. So how the human civilization can be without problems? The leaders are rascals. How we can expect that it will go on without problem?
Rāmeśvara: They have missed that point.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Ekala īśvara kṛṣṇa ara saba bhṛtya. "Only master is Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is servant." Accept this principle and everything will be all right immediately. Immediately. If you study the whole Bhagavad-gītā, where is any word there which you can refute or which is not good for you? Study whole Bhagavad-gītā. All practical and very congenial for human civilization. Kṛṣṇa teaches from the very beginning, "First of all learn what you are. You are not this body. You are within this body." Now, who knows this? This is the first study. As soon as you understand that "I am not this body, I am within this body," immediate you understand what is spirit. Then your spiritual knowledge advances further. But these rascals, they do not know what is spirit, what is spiritual knowledge.
Devotee: They think that cows don't have a spirit.
Prabhupāda: They may think like anything, rascal. Do you believe that?
Devotee: Yes, they have spirit...
Prabhupāda: No, you believe it or not? They say, but whether you believe it or not?
Devotee: The spirit soul makes the body work. That's evidence that the spirit's inside.
Prabhupāda: Yes, how you can say there is no spirit? You have got spirit. Your body is moving. You are walking. You are eating. You are talking. And as soon as the spirit is gone, then it is dead matter, bulk. The hand is there; it will not work. The leg is there; it will not work. So where is the difference between the cow's body and your body? Come to human reasoning. You say there is no spirit, so how you say? Where is the difference between your body and cow's body?
Brahmānanda: Why can't we have sense gratification and God also at the same time?
Prabhupāda: That is Bhagavad-gītā, that aviruddho-kāmo 'smi. "Sense gratification which is not against religious principles, that sense gratification I am," Kṛṣṇa says. We do not stop sense gratification, but we want to regulate sense gratification like a gentleman, not like hogs and dogs. That is human civilization. Sense gratification like hogs and dogs, not required. Sense gratification... People are following that. Although they are so degraded, still, they have not sanctioned as yet to have openly sense gratification on the street like hogs and dogs. That is regulated. That's still going on. But because the civilization is gliding down to animalism, they don't want this restriction. That is the hippies' protest, that, "Why this convention required? Let us enjoy like hogs and dogs." That is advancement.
Viṣṇujana: The scientists are helping them do that also.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Viṣṇujana: The scientists are helping them to do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So therefore they are becoming generally, gliding down to animal life.
Pañcadraviḍa: So isn't that better?
Prabhupāda: Yes, for you. (laughter)
Pañcadraviḍa: If the animals are happy and the human beings are unhappy, why not live like an animal?
Prabhupāda: So yes, they are coming to that, animal life. Then why do you call human civilization?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But if I stop all these activities, then there will be no more pleasure. If I stop all these activities...
Prabhupāda: No, pleasure, you do not know what is pleasure. You rascal, you do not know what is pleasure. Just like the hog. He's also enjoying pleasure, eating stool. So your pleasure is like that. You eat stool and enjoy life. That is your standard of pleasure.
Madhudviṣa: But who...? We can say that because we're above the hogs.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (laughing lightly) You cannot say that I have introduced it. It is already there. As it is there in India, it is also everywhere. It may be under different names. The four classes are already there, everywhere. The... Even in Muslim, they have also got the (indistinct), what is called, mohallas, priestly class. They have got. We are introducing the systematic caste system, but caste system is already there, everywhere. Maybe under different names. And it is necessary. The caste system is there as a matter of necessity. You cannot abolish it. But it is now existing in a deformed manner. People should be systematic and organized. That we are trying to. Not that a new thing we are trying to introduce. It is already there. Our proposition is that "You priestly class, you must act exactly as a priest-ideal priest. You are a drunkard, you are woman-hunter, you are doing everything nonsense, and at the same time you are passing on as priest—this should be stopped." This should be stopped. The priestly class, or the brāhmaṇas, they should be trained up to become truthful, how to control mind, how to control senses, and tolerant, and very learned, knowing God also—these things are required. They should be the first-class, ideal men. Similarly, the kṣatriyas, they must be fearless; they must be very boldly, face fighting the enemies; they must have the capacity to govern nicely so that people will not have any complaint against the government. In this way they should be trained up. And the mercantile class of man, they should produce enough food grains, not motor tires. That is śūdra's business—artisans—that is śūdra. The vaiśyas' business is first to see that in the country there is enough food for eating—both for the human being and the animals. The human being should not complain that there is no sufficient food grains, therefore they're eating flesh. No. Flesh is not for human being. They should live on food grains. Just like dahl. Dahl is as good as meat. It is from food grain. And there is sufficient varieties of dahl they can eat. They can make so many preparations, palatable preparations. Why are the prices of food grains increasing? Because there is shortage. If there is enough food, the price will automatically decrease, because everyone want to sell. So, the price will decrease, naturally. It will be so lavishly available that you can give food grains even to the animals, like cows and goats and other so many animals. Let them eat. That is the business of the vaiśya man. And go-rakṣya. Another business is to protect the cows, and to give them food nicely so the cows will give enough milk. And from milk, you know, so many nice preparations, all full of vitamins. So why they should be killed? You are killing; the blood is not utilized, you are taking the flesh. But flesh is transformation of the blood. And milk is also transformation of the blood. So if you take, just like channa, it is as good as flesh. By taste, by benefit—as good as. So why if you can take the flesh and blood in a human way-blood is transformed into milk, and from milk there are so many good preparations-ghee, yoghurt, burfi, channa, so many preparations are available. This panir, channa, and let the animal live peacefully. Why are you cutting his throat? You require some benefit from the animal. Take this benefit. Why should you kill? If he can live and give better service, then why shall I try to kill? What is this human civilization? Is that human civilization, that I am taking service from you, and I am cutting your throat? Is that humanity? What is the answer?
Prabhupāda: Oh, seagull. They are doing the same business, and after his much advancement of civilization, he is doing the same business. The tiger is also eating flesh and blood, and human being—a scientific slaughterhouse. The same business, but they have got scientific instrument how to cut the throat quickly. This is the advance, advancement of civilization. The dog and cat they are having sex on the open street, and now they are talking of homosex in the school, colleges for education. This is their position. They do not know even what is the standard of human civilization. If you are doing the same business like ordinary animals, then where is the advancement of civilization? Where they have gone by crossing here?
Devotee (2): I think they went up that path out there, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Here, this way?
Devotee (2): Yes, I think so.
Devotee (1): It leads to the beach.
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā it says that happiness in the mode of goodness is in the beginning is like poison but at the end it is like nectar. Where does the poison end and where does the sweetness begin?
Prabhupāda: Sweetness? That is false sweetness. Just like sexual intercourse. This is sweet, but aftereffect is very poisonous. Either illicit or legal, the aftereffect is very... You have to take care of the children, the child is diseased, go to the doctor and this, that, so many, maintenance... And illicit—then this charge of rape case and so many other things. So both of them, in the beginning it is very happy, but at the end it is very distressing. That is material happiness. Everyone knows it, that it is distasteful. But still, he does that. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanāḥ bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Therefore this kṛpanāḥ... Kṛpanāḥ means miser or foolish person.
Amogha: They don't know how to cook, the dogs.
Prabhupāda: Well, nature has made them like that. The human beings, they can utilize the land, they can produce so many nice foodstuffs. That is human society. What is this society? They are living in big, big skyscraper building, and for their food the slaughterhouse killing, and they are eating. Is that human civilization? All third class, fourth class men.
Amogha: If they would only listen, they will be defenseless, but they don't listen much.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they go away, "My time is over." (laughs)
Amogha: Yes. "I am busy. I must go."
Prabhupāda: His energy is over. Not time is over, but his energy is over. He see that "We cannot argue with this man."
Śrutakīrti: He'll not give us a chance. (break) (speaking to another devotee) Wouldn't it be better if you make his breakfast?
Devotee: Certainly.
Prabhupāda: I've talked with many psychiatric scientists in Los Angeles.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: All of them (indistinct). Even our own scientist.
Amogha: (laughs) Yes.
Jesuit: No, I am all right thanks.
Prabhupāda: So people, either through Christianity or through any process, they must come to the understanding platform where we can understand what is God and how to love Him. That is required. Otherwise this human civilization will be spoiled.
Jesuit: And the great truth also that God loves every one of us.
Prabhupāda: God loves. That is natural, but you do not love, I do not love. That is the difficulty. Father loves the son; that is natural. But when the son does not love father that is a very precarious condition.
Jesuit: Good. Well, thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, jaya.
Jesuit: Thank you. We will pray for one another.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Interviewer: These Oriental philosophies generally and in particular the Kṛṣṇa consciousness has found a lot of devotees in the western civilization. What is the main reason for this?
Prabhupāda: You are thinking this is Oriental civilization, but that is not the fact. The fact is this is human civilization. There is no question of east and west. Every living being, not only human being, even other beings—there are 8,400,000's forms of life—and Kṛṣṇa claims that
- sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
- mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
- tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
- haṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
- (BG 14.4)
So Kṛṣṇa is for the aquatics, the animals in the water. The vast sea, there are so many animals. Then, from the water, the trees are coming out. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. In this way evolutionary process is going on. But all of them, living entities, and part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa. So by the evolutionary process they come to the human form of life. Now there is developed consciousness. Now, the human being has to decide which way he has to go, again to the lower species of life or higher forms of life. The higher forms of life are there in the upper planetary system.
Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). These materialistic persons, they do not know what is Viṣṇu or they do not know that his ultimate goal of life is to know Viṣṇu, or God. This is human life. But that is missing. They do not care to know that the ultimate, what is the ultimate goal of human life. This is the defect. Nobody cares to know, especially in this age. So that is the defeat of human civilization. They must know. This is the process, that... By evolution, they have come to nature's way, human form of life. Now they must know what is God. Otherwise it is defeat.
Dr. Judah: That's true.
Prabhupāda: The opportunity given by nature, good consciousness to know God, Viṣṇu. Now, practically, take anyone, especially in the western world. Nobody can say what is God. Is it not?
Dr. Judah: It's true.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Dr. Judah: That is quite true.
Prabhupāda: So in that position, if we are offering, "Here is God," why do they not accept? What is the objection?
Dr. Judah: There isn't any objection. I think the great problem, of course, in the western world is that the western world has always been involved in materialism and...
Prabhupāda: The western world... That means they don't want to know God. So this is very horrible condition.
Prabhupāda: How they can be? They are not trained up. They are not trained up from the very beginning. For being trained up, there is another four divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. These are the training divisions. So for the first-class, second-class, third-class, all the students, they are trained up as brahmacārī, student life. Brahmacārī means celibacy, live under the direction of the teacher and accept all kinds of hardship under the teacher's or spiritual master direction. Children, they can easily take it. If a child, a small child, I ask him, "My dear child, you take my shoes and keep it there," he will immediately agree. He has no sense, "Oh, he is asking me to take his shoes." He will immediately agree. Even he is very rich man's son. So this life is advised that a student live just like a menial servant of the teacher or the spiritual master. And they agree. We have got good instances. And he is coming from the first-class family, brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family or vaiśya family, first, second, third. So even śūdra family, he can learn also. So brahmacārī. Then he is, if he can remain without wife or without opposite sex, then he continues to remain as brahmacārī. He is encouraged. This process encourages to remain brahmacārī, that "Don't take to sex life, it is entailed with so many difficulties. Practice to remain a brahmacārī. You'll save so much trouble." But if he is unable—the teacher sees-Then he is allowed to marry, marriage. If he is trained up brahmacārī, when he marries, he lives with wife under rules and regulation, not like cats and dogs. And then, because he had previous training, at a certain age he gives up family life. That is called vānaprastha. Pañcaśordhvam vānam vrajet. The vānaprastha life is accepted, generally, after fiftieth year, not earlier. Then the husband and wife travels all over, I mean to say, spiritual sanctified places. In India there are so many places. So in this way, there is no sex in the vānaprastha. Simply the wife remains as assistant. And she also practices austerities. And then the husband, when he is fully mature, he sends wife back to his elderly children to take care of her and he takes sannyāsa. So this is spiritual advancement, and in sannyāsa life, one is absolutely dedicated for the service of God. So in this way his life becomes perfect. And according to his perfection, he gets next birth in higher planetary system. In the upper planets, planetary system, there is Svargaloka up to the third-class man. And then, above that, there are Janaloka, Maharloka, Tapaloka, Satyaloka, Brahmaloka. And beyond that, there is spiritual world. So in this way life becomes perfect. If you want, you can go to the spiritual world. Spiritual world means no more accepting this material body. And so long we are in this material world we repeat one body after another. And if we degrade ourself to become criminals, then we degrade to the hellish planets down this universe. So human civilization means by nature's way, by evolutionary process, he has come to this body of human being. He should now decide that whether he should remain in this chain of birth and death or he should get out of it and go to the spiritual world. This training required. So throughout the whole world there is no such institution to study all this fact. They are going just like fourth-class men. They have decided out of their own accord that there is no life after death. Young men say that there is no old age, but nature will not agree. Your next life is old age. That is natural. You cannot say, "No, no, I don't believe in it." You believe or not believe, it will come. Similarly, you believe or not believe, your next life is there.
Prabhupāda: So everything is explained. If anyone wants to take advantage of it, he can take. We have got fifty books like this. Those who are interested in the science and philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they can read all these books. Otherwise, one can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, That will also help. The human civilization means everyone shall try to become first-class man. This is human civilization, not to remain like animals. That attempt is lacking now. Here the civilization is that the dog is jumping or running, and human being is running in a motor car, and he is thinking he is more civilized than the dog. But the business is running. That's all. The dog is having sex on the street, and the human being is having sex in a very nice decorated apartment and therefore he is civilized. But the business is the same. The dog is eating on the floor and the human being is eating in a very nice table, nice dish, and therefore he is civilized. But the business is eating. The dog is trying to defend itself by barking or by teeth and jaws, and the human being is trying to defend the society by atom bomb, but the business is defense. Therefore śāstra says, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samanyam etat paśubhir narāṇām: "This business of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending is common to the animal and to the man." The man, if he does not understand what he is, why he is suffering this material tribulations, then he remains cats and dogs. The cats and dogs, they cannot question, but human being can question. And he should take the answer from these books of knowledge. That is human life. Otherwise, so far eating, sleeping, sex and defense, that is common for the dogs and man. There is no difference. He is doing in his own way, we are doing in our own way, but the business is the same. So human being must go above these four businesses, the fifth business. The fifth business is how to understand God. Otherwise, the bodily four businesses, that is common.
Bahulāśva: ...Los Angeles you told Svarūpa Dāmodara that in twenty-five more years science will be finished.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Science is already finished. He is regretting that no young man is interested. That means it is finished already. That's a fact. (break) ...is finished, so-called religion is finished, so-called politics is finished—everything. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Because they have finished God, everything will be finished. Zero, only zero.
Bahulāśva: The whole human civilization.
Prabhupāda: Where is civilization? (laughter) The mother is killing child—is that civilization? Where is civilization? Less than doggish civilization. Dog also do not do that. And they are claiming civilization, nonsense rascals. Mother is killing child, and is that civilization? Less than dogs and cats. The dogs and cats also do not kill their children. They try to protect. You know? The cats, they carry their cubs from one place to another so that the male cat may not kill. The tiger also do that. The tiger, they also give protection to the...
Brahmānanda: The rats, they sometimes do that.
Prabhupāda: Everyone. Mother's affection is natural. Now the civilized mother is killing child. This is your civilization. This is your religion, this is your science, philosophy—everything. And for this, you have created so many big, big buildings to create some less than animals. Civilization is finished unless you take to Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now dictatorship is coming, politics. The dictator can arrest anyone without any trial and stop him. Even their own circle, the Communists... Nobody knows where is Kruschev. Indira Gandhi is doing.
Prabhupāda: Then the population will stop? Will the population stop anymore? Then where is the proof? Just see how foolishness.
Harikeśa: Sometimes they argue that only a small...
Prabhupāda: This is argument. This is argument, that it is not fact. Let them... Women has agreed not to have sex with man. Then close all these maternity hospitals. That is the only happiness. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukha hi tuccham. The husband and wife, they, I mean to say, mix together only for this, especially in this age. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. They get married only for sex pleasure, not for any other purpose. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. Otherwise the purpose is husband and wife together, they will worship Laksmi-Narayana and become perfect. That is the description given in Puṁsavana. You will get the statement there how the husband and wife is advised to worship Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa. Therefore you will find in Hindu culture, every family, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa worship, the husband and wife. Still there are, there is some glimpse of human civilization in India. So we can revive it. In Bhogilal's house there is no dog.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Go on pleasure. Who checks you? Enjoy this pleasure. If everything is pleasure, then why you take the counteractive process? Why do you want to kill child? Pleasure? Why do you take contraceptive method if it is pleasure? That is the proof how much rascal they are. Mūḍha nābhijānāti. Try to understand why Kṛṣṇa has spoken so many times, "mūḍhas, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā." Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is speaking like that. There must be some meaning. Human civilization means to give relief to the human being, comfortable life, not to repeat the same business like the animals. That is human civilization.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We see practically that only the devotees are somewhat free from anxiety.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. We have little anxieties simply because we have to deal with this rascal world. Otherwise we have no anxiety. But we have taken this mission, to go and approach them, tell them the truth. Therefore we have got little anxiety. Otherwise there is no question of anxiety. Because we are mixing with these rascals—and we have to do that, who have taken this mission-therefore little anxiety there. That is also not very much. But you must know, the whole world is full of rascals and fools. That is not exaggeration. Eh? Or you have got different opinion?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Harikeśa: One has to be very careful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise even a devotee like Bhārata Mahārāja, he had to accept the body of a deer. A little careless. Then nature's law will act. Hm? If you do not become cautious and if you infect the smallpox disease, you have to suffer. Therefore a civilized man takes process, caution, "Oh there is smallpox disease, I shall not go there. Or if I go there, I must take vaccine." This is human civilization, caution. And if you are animal, you do not know. So human life means not animal life. Very reasonable, very cautious, educated, cultured, that is human life. Not animal life. Drink like animal, or eat like animal, have sex life like animal. Freedom, animal has got all freedom. So that freedom is not allowed to the human beings. That is civilization. The same example. The animal has got freedom and you'll see in Indian market, vegetable market, some cow comes and eats, takes so many vegetables and eats, but he's not going to the court. But if you take one small piece of chili without, then you'll go to the court. So therefore, law is meant for human beings, not for the animals. Those who want to be free, they are animals. So-called freedom means animalism. That is not humanism. Humanism means to follow the rules and regulations and the laws, and then he is human being. Because law is meant for the human being, not for the animals. And when you come out from your home, immediately the law is keep to the right. And if you violate, immediately you go to the law. But a dog, he doesn't care. If you say, "A dog does not obey this law," that is no excuse. You are human being. If you don't obey then you go to jail. So many animals are on the street naked, they're having sex life, naked. You do, immediately you'll be prosecuted. Why? Because you are a human being. You have to restrain. Even if you like. Just like the Hawaii University students, "What is the wrong to become a dog?" So if you think like that then you become a dog, nature is ready to give you a dog's body. That is (Sanskrit). He's thinking, "The dog's life is very nice. This liberation of sex life on the street." "Alright, you take dog's body."
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Viḍ-bhujāṁ ye. This is not civilization. This is civilization, tapasya: no meat-eating, no this, no this, that, and become perfect, ideal brāhmaṇa life, satya śama dama śuci jñāna vijñāna. This is civilization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Unless you become civilized like this, there is no opportunity of brahma-jijñāsā. And so long you do not inquire about Brahman, that you remain, that pigs and hogs and asses. If human civilization is wasted to cultivate the pig civilization, naturally, "All right, you come here. Become a pig now. Take this body." Kṛṣṇa will say, "Nature, prakṛti, he got this chance to become human being, but has misused. Kindly give him a body of pig."
- īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
- bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
- yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
- (BG 18.61)
Then you get this yantra, how you can become perfect pig, whole day and night eat stool, and as soon as you get another opposite party, have sex. Doesn't matter whether it is daughter or mother or sister. That's all. Take Freud's philosophy and become highly advanced in civilization. Now the Freud's philosophy is being translated in Hindi and so many other languages. We are advancing in civilization, Indians. They are translating this Freud's philosophy, pig civilization. People therefore do not come to us. (chuckles) They avoid us because "They are not pigs."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if you know how to...
Prabhupāda: Whatever direction is there, you take that. The medicine is given. Doctor gives direction. "So many drops you can take." Now you say, "Oh, the good medicine. Let me eat the whole thing. I become cured immediately." Then you die. You have to take, enjoy, but according to direction. God does not say that "You don't enjoy." You are, what is called, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). A living entity means ānandamaya, enjoyment. But that ānanda, where it is permanent ānanda, how we have to reach that permanent ānanda, that is being taught. Otherwise, you foolish, you'll eat the whole medicine and die. That's all. Therefore the varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma means that is real human civilization. There is direction that "You enjoy like this." And if you become mlecchas and yavanas, then you'll not enjoy. You simply suffer. You do not know how to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: God has made that arrangement.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in Viṣṇu Purāṇa.
- varṇāśramācāra-vatā
- puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān
- viṣṇur ārādhyate panthā
- nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam
- (CC Madhya 8.58)
That is said, varṇāśrama-dharma. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, unless one comes to the regulation of varṇāśrama-dharma, that is not human civilization. That is actually the fact. That is the same dog's society. That is going on. If there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified brāhmaṇa, who will give direction? There is no... If there is no kṣatriya, then who will give protection? If there is no vaiśya, then who will produce food? And if there is no śūdra, then who will work for general assistance? This is scientific.
Devotee (1): The house is there, under the trees.(?)
Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside:) You have got this card.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the Western countries they would call this primitive.
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is civilization, that is there. The difficulty is they have no education about human civilization. Bahir-artha-māninā. They are simply captivated by the external energy, bodily conception of life. They do not know what is the aim of life. This is Western civilization. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). This is not Western, this is the demonic civilization. They do not know what is the aim of life. Our..., the material atmosphere, they're not happy, they're failing always, missing the real point.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The people that live in the cities think that the farmers work so hard.
Prabhupāda: And these rascals rise early in the morning and start their car to go to the office, five hours coming and going, and eight hours working there...
Lokanātha: Again in the evening they have to drive back. (break)
Pañcadraviḍa: ...I saw that these big men, they were taking so many pep pills during the day to do their work, and in the evening they had to take tranquilizers to go to sleep.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I have seen so, so many advertisements. One has to take at least five to six types of.
Devotee (2): Yes, that's correct. In animals the soul is there, but the consciousness is not developed.
Prabhupāda: Not developed. But you cannot say there is no soul. Sometimes they say foolishly that the animal, there is no soul. That is foolishness. Everywhere there is soul. It is not developed. So just like a child is as good as animal, but you cannot say in the child there is no soul. The consciousness is not developed. You can say like that. Similarly, there are 8,400,000 species of forms. They are different on account of different development of consciousness. A tree, there is consciousness, but it is very, very covered. If you cut the tree, it does not protest, because the consciousness is not developed. I have seen in children surgical operation. They do not require anesthetics. I remember. My eldest daughter, when she was child, she had some boil here. So the doctor wanted to operate. So I asked him that "Apply anesthetic or do something." "No, no, they don't require." And so the doctor cut the boil, and the child simply, "Ehhh, ehhh," no crying. I have seen it when they did.... No crying. Because the consciousness is not developed. Now, what do you mean by...? When you are unconscious, if your head is cut off, you do not understand. That is practical if by medicinal process you are made into unconsciousness, chloroform anesthetic, so that you don't feel. This is practical. So unless the consciousness is developed, one's soul's full-fledged function does not develop. So this is a chance in the human form of body that the consciousness should be developed. Therefore we are presenting these books. They can understand. We are not presenting the books to the cats and dogs. They cannot understand. Those who are developed conscious, they can understand, and they can understand the value of life, what is the objective of life. Then he acts accordingly, and his life becomes successful. Otherwise, if we do not develop consciousness, simply eat like animal, sleep like animal, enjoy sex life like animal, and try to defend ourself like animal, then where is the difference between man and the animal? At the present moment they are busy with these four things: how to eat, how to sleep, how to have best process of sex life, and how to defend by atomic bomb. This is their advancement of civilization. And this is dog's civilization. A dog is also trying for the same purpose, how to eat, how sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend. That's all. Any animal is trying. Any small insect, it is trying for the same thing. So human life should be utilized only for these four things? No. To understand himself, "What I am? Why I do not like death?" Just like we make some arrangement, struggle for existence for becoming happy, stopping the impediments. So this question should be there in the human form of life, that "I don't want to die. Why death comes upon me? What is the superior power that is enforcing death upon me? I am young man. I don't want to become an old man. Why? Why I am forced to become an old man?" These are the questions of human life. A dog cannot think. A dog cannot think that "Why I have become dog? Why I am barking, and why I am chained?" He doesn't think. And if we remain unconscious like the dog, then where is the advancement of civilization? Dog civilization is not human civilization. Human civilization should be different from the doggish life.
Prabhupāda: Simply faith, blind faith we do not endure. And therefore they are becoming godless. And gradually, if we do not understand factually what is God, then the whole human civilization will be godless. To become godless means again animal. That is the difference between animal and man. In the animal society there is no question of religion, faith, God. These things are not there. The human civilization, if it becomes like that, without any faith in God, without any understanding of God, then where is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? They must know God scientifically. That is the actual aim of human life. Suppose the dog is sleeping on the street without any care whether a car is coming and smash it. He's also sleeping sound sleep. And we are sleeping in a very nice apartment. So after all, sleeping. And he is also enjoying sleeping, I am also enjoying sleeping. So do you think to change the, I mean to say, circumstances of the sleeping? I am sleeping in a very nice apartment, he's sleeping on the floor. Does it mean this is advancement of civilization? Sleeping is sleeping. Eating is eating. Sex life—the male dog is enjoying with female dog. The sex pleasure is to him, and we are enjoying with a beautiful lover. The sex pleasure is the same. Therefore, you take some eatable, either on gold fork or an iron fork, the taste is the same. Simply like putting the foodstuff in the golden fork, does it mean the taste has changed? So, the test of eating, sleeping, mating and defending is the same for the human being as well as the animals. What difference, what is the difference between the animals and humans? The animal cannot know God. That is not possible. The human being can know. That is the opportunity of this human life. If we are missing that opportunity, then we are leading an animal civilization. This is not civilization. Animal life is not civilization. Civilized means not animal life. Something more than that. That is God consciousness.
Prabhupāda: But, he lives on the lap of mother, that's all.
That is child. Child is satisfied on the lap of the mother, that's what I am saying. He doesn't.... The child doesn't care, "I have to know the father." But there is father, that's a fact. That means the present civilization is childish civilization. Does not care to know the father. So, whether the human civilization will remain child, children. They fight amongst themselves. Children, however you can.... "My dear children, live peacefully." So for the time being they may be. Again they will fight, they will cry. That is going on. What the United Nations has done? For the last forty years, they're fighting like children or animals. So you keep..., if you keep them as child or animals, do you think there will be peace? That is not possible. It is to the talking of big, big words for peace. That is not possible. It is futile attempt. They're talking of big, big wars (indistinct), that is not possible. I think in Melbourne I, in my press interview, I said if the United Nations is working.
Ambarīṣa: I just came from Vancouver from the Habitat Conference. The U.N. is having a Habitat Conference in Vancouver, and they (indistinct) is not united, their discussions and arguments. Sometimes there are walkouts, so many things, and they're not able to reach any conclusions, they can't agree with each other.
Prabhupāda: How they can? Do you mean to say dogs simply barking, they will come to a conclusion? (chuckles) It is not possible. There is no aim, what is the actual aim of life. So this is very important movement. At least the intelligent class of men, they must understand it thoroughly. Just like there is body. There are different parts, different sections of the body, but the most important section is the brain. Similarly, the important section of society means one who is fully in God consciousness. I.... You can cut my hands, I shall live. You can cut my legs, I shall live. But if you cut my head, (indistinct). So, at the present moment, there are big, big scientists, big, big technologists. That's all right; that is hands and legs. But there is no brain. Therefore in one sense, you can take it as dead society. So in my opinion, I like your country, America. Sometimes I call, "This is my fatherland," because these American boys, they are helping me pushing on this movement. I am very much obliged to these boys. Now, let us take it little more seriously statewise. And if America takes it seriously, other nations will follow. And there is the United Nations Organization in America. And make a nice organization to understand God. United Nations God Consciousness. People will benefit.
Prabhupāda: He is addressing his friends, "born of demoniac families, my dear friends." (laughs) Give him one chair, Dr. Wolfe. Yes, that's nice. He used to address his father also as "the best of the demons." Once his father asked him, "My dear son, what nice lesson you have learned in the school? Please tell me." So he addressed his father, asura-vārya, "the best of the asuras."
- tat sādhu manye 'sura-vārya dehināṁ
- sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt
- hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ
- vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta
- (SB 7.5.5)
So, "My dear father," not "father," "the best of the asuras," asurya-vārya, the chief asura, "in my opinion," tat sādhu manye, "I think, so far I have studied," tat sādhu manye, "I think that is very nice, very honest profession of occupation for persons who are always full of anxieties." In the material world everyone is full of anxiety. That's a fact. Even in your country, the President Nixon, he was full of anxiety while he was in office, and now, out of his office, he's also full of anxiety. So just see. This is the best man in your country, president, the foremost man. So if he is full of anxiety, the others naturally... Everyone. So what is the cause of the anxiety? Asad-grahāt. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt. Asat means that does not exist, "not eternal," it is just opposite. Eternal is called sat, om tat sat, and asat means just the opposite. So here in this material world everything is asat. Even this body is asat; it will not exist. And what to speak of other things with reference to the body. Everything is asat. Anything material is asat; it will not stay, either these trees or this land or this world or this country or this, anything, asat. So asad-grahāt, on account of accepting things which are asat, not permanent, they are always full of anxiety. Just see how nicely explained, why one is full of anxiety. The reason is, he has accepted something which will not stay, endure, and he has accepted: "This is all in all. My country is all in all. My family is all in all. This body, all in all." But it will not stay. That's a practical fact. But they are sticking to these things. Deha-pātra-kalatrādiṣu ātma-sainyeṣu asatsu api. There is another verse where this word is used, asat. Everyone is thinking, "I am secure. I am born in a very good nation, state. My body is very strong. My family members are very nice, well-educated. I have got good bank balance, and I have got respectable position," so on, so on. He is thinking, "These things will save me." This world is struggle for existence, and when there is struggle, there are some soldiers. So ātma-sainyeṣu asatsu api. One is thinking that "These are my soldiers. I'll own victory in the struggle for existence." But pramattaḥ tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati. But he's so mad, he knows that these things will be vanquished, and still, he does not see to it. Paśyann api na paśyati. Therefore his anxiety. So Prahlāda Mahārāja is, this version, sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt: "On account of accepting nonpermanent things as permanent, therefore he's full of anxiety." Sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt. Then what is the remedy? The remedy is hitvātmā-ghāṭaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam: "This andha-kūpam, dark well of ignorance, one must give up." Then vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta: (SB 7.5.5) "He must go to vana." When one goes to vana, it is called vānaprastha. So after family life, according to Vedic civilization, one has to accept vānaprastha life. And when one is fully prepared, he takes sannyāsa after vānaprastha life. So vanaṁ gataḥ means one should prepare by going to the forest for the next life of renounced order of life. That is human civilization: brahmacārī, gṛhasta, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa means full engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). Otherwise, what is the use of going to the forest? In the forest there are many monkeys also. So that kind of life is not harim āśrayeta. He must take shelter of the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Hari. That is oṁ tat sat. And then he'll be happy. That is Vedic civilization. So Prahlāda Mahārāja is teaching to the boys, his class friends. He was five-years-old boy. Naturally, his friends are also of the same age, and he's teaching this bhāgavata-dharma.
Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ
Prabhupāda: Ah. And these things are available without any endeavor, as we get distressed condition of life without any endeavor. There are two things in this world: distress and happiness. So we don't call for distress, that "Malaria fever comes to me. I shall enjoy." Nobody says, but it comes. So similarly, this is distress. If distress comes by the superior arrangement, so happiness also will come by superior arrangement. So why should we bother about these things? Now tasyaiva hetoḥ praya... Therefore our endeavor should be for understanding ourself, self-realization, and our relationship with God or what is God, what is the nature. These things, athāto brahma jijñāsā, this is our business, not to waste our valuable time for searching after sense gratification. It is not human civilization, and that is..., that is demonic civilization. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja, stressing. Sukham aindriyakaṁ yad... Read it?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: Next one?
Prabhupāda: No, no, this verse.
Nalinīkaṇṭha:
- sukham aindriyakam daityā
- deha-yogena dehinām
- sarvatra labhyate daivād
- yataḥ duḥkham ayatnataḥ
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Now translation and purport, read.
Nalinīkaṇṭha: We just read that. Read again?
Prabhupāda: The purport you have read?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then next verse.
Nalinīkaṇṭha: No, I haven't read the purport.
Jayādvaita: Their only objection, when we present that there's brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa, then they become automatically hostile, because they understand that we're against sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sense gratification is animal civilization. And sense control is human civ.... Sense gratification is not human society. Sense gratification is not human civilization. That they do not know. Their central point is sense gratification. That is the defect. They are running on an animal civilization as human civilization. That is the defect. Sense gratification is animal civilization. And actually they are animals. If they can kill their own child, it is animal. Just like cats, dogs, they kill their own child. What is that? It is animal civilization. Who was talking that child is put into the, what is that, left luggage?
Hari-śauri: Left-luggage lockers. Trivikrama Mahārāja, in Japan. He said over two hundred thousand, uh, twenty thousand babies, they put them in a left-luggage locker and leave them.
Prabhupāda: Bus way station? Railway station? Leave luggage. Put it and lock it, then not coming back. Then when there is bad smell.... This is going on. This is simply animal civilization. Taking the last drop of milk from the cow and immediately send it to the slaughterhouse. They are doing like that. Before sending to the slaughterhouse, they draw out the last drop of milk from the cow. And immediately killing. So you require the milk, you are taking so much milk, without milk you cannot.... And the animal from whom you take milk, she's your mother. They forget this.
Mādhavānanda: Therefore the government will not like.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The government does not like it now because we are not going to eat meat, we are not accepting liquor, no gambling, no prostitution. So the government is already concerned. Theoretically, suppose these things are stopped, then where is the human civilization? Everything is finished. Because they have no other alternative. We have got—Kṛṣṇa consciousness—but they haven't got.
Mādhavānanda: They become bored very easily. If they do not have all the different material amusements, they become very bored and depressed.
Prabhupāda: And we have got everything. We have got feasting, dancing, chanting, philosophy, clean and spotless life.
Hari-śauri: Friendship, everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No animal killing. We are not envious of anyone.
George Gullen: We are much in ignorance about those matters, I understand that, and...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Complete ignorance, like animals. So the leaders of the society, if they are serious about advancement of human civilization, they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness; otherwise, they'll be baffled.
George Gullen: Well, we do not teach about these things...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect.
George Gullen: .... in public schools because we do not know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now whether still we shall remain in ignorance or we shall learn this science and teach, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement. No, it is not that. This is science, scientific. So leading personalities like you, teachers, professors and other leading men, they should try to understand what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is and join. It is for the human society, it is not for a certain section.
Prabhupāda: Go on.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." (purport) "The demoniac are engaged in activities that will lead the world to destruction. The Lord states here that they are less intelligent. The materialists, who have no concept of God, think that they are advancing. But, according to Bhagavad-gītā, they are unintelligent and devoid of all sense. They try to enjoy this material world to the utmost limit and therefore always engage in inventing something for sense gratification. Such materialistic inventions are considered to be the advancement of human civilization, but the result is that people grow more and more violent and more and more cruel-cruel to animals and cruel to other human beings. They have no idea how to behave toward one another. Animal killing is very prominent amongst demoniac people. Such people are considered the enemies of the world because ultimately they will invent or create something which will bring destruction to all. Indirectly, this verse anticipates the invention of nuclear weapons, of which the whole world is today very proud. At any moment war may take place, and these atomic weapons may create havoc. Such things are created solely for the destruction of the world, and this is indicated here. Due to godlessness, such weapons are invented in human society; they are not meant for the peace and prosperity of the world."
Prabhupāda: Now, discuss.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Actually, in this century there has not been ten years of peace. Always there is some war been going on, and now...
Prabhupāda: Cold war and hot war, they say. When there is fire that is hot war, and there is diplomacy and politics, that is cold war. So war is going on. Sometimes it is hot, sometimes it is cold. There is no peace.
Kulādri: The devotee is described as para-duḥkha-duḥkhi. He's only distressed in seeing the distress of others.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song is there, para-duḥkhe sukhi. That is natural. Go on.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna:
- cintām aparimeyāṁ ca
- pralayāntām upāśritāḥ
- kāmopabhoga-paramā
- etāvad iti niścitāḥ
- āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhāḥ
- kāma-krodha-parāyaṇāḥ
- īhante kāma-bhogārtham
- anyāyenārtha-sañcayān
"They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification."
Prabhupāda: Illegal.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Illegal means.
Prabhupāda: Dhana means money. So if you have got money, then everyone will respect you. Personally you may be less than a dog, but because you have got money, people will respect you. Is it not? (laughs) In England I was guest in John Lennon's house. He has taken a photograph, naked. And he's a big man. He gives opinion to the newspaper reporter. People go there to take his opinion about some serious subject, and he speaks, and the man is so shameless that he is standing naked, and he's important man—because he has got money. Especially in the Western countries this is very prominent. If you have got money, then you have got everything. Therefore they are after money only, that "If some way or other, if I get money, then I get everything. I get respect, I get honor. I get everything. Bring money somehow or other." This is the attempt. Therefore there is so much hard struggle. From early in the morning, four o'clock, they are going to the office to get money. To get more money, more money, that is the Western civilization. Now in India they have also learned. And our philosophy is "Don't try to get money." Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta. "You should simply engage your life for advancing your Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So who will hear us? We say, "There is no need of working so hard for money." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This kind of working hard is done by the hogs and dogs, so why a human being should work so hard simply to get the necessities of life? (break) ...and dogs, they are getting necessities of life in that way. (break) This association, this meeting, this talking, is meant for the human body; it is not for the cats and dogs. This is human civilization. Naimiṣāraṇya meeting going on, all the big, big learned brāhmaṇas, sages, they are talking how to do welfare activities to the human society. What is this civilization? Simply money, money, money, money, money. And as soon as you get money, then you begin all nonsense, illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, gambling. What you will do with the money? You do not know how to spend it. Hm. Dhana-māna-madānvitāḥ.
Prabhupāda: That economic development. Our ācāryas, practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90), he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti. Therefore Nārada Muni chastised him, that "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, catur varga." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kāma mokṣa. In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra śrīmad-bhāgavate (SB 1.1.2), in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, they are all kaitavas, cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). So this kaitava, Śrīdhara Swami gives his commentary, atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam. The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is on the basis... It is called bhāgavata-dharma. Prahlāda Mahārāja begins his teaching that this bhāgavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other anarthas, drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance... Just like you have given.
Prabhupāda: This is a spiritual movement, and at the present moment people are more interested with material improvement, but our real interest is... Not only our, every human being's interest should be for spiritual upliftment. Just like our body is there, and within the body I am the spirit soul, also I am there. So we are taking care of the body but not of the spirit soul. So the nature's law is that a spirit soul, changing in different position of the body, as we experience in this life, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, similarly, after giving up this body, we'll have to accept another body, and there are 8,400,000 different forms of body. We do not know what kind of body we are going to accept according to our activities and mentality. At the time of death the mentality will ascertain what kind of body we are going to get next. So these things are completely not discussed, neither they have any knowledge. So at the present moment the human civilization is a very risky civilization, so in order to save them from this state of ignorance, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential. It is not a sectarian religious movement, faith or sentiment. It is actually scientific movement. Here are many scientists present. They are also taking very seriously about this movement. So we invite all important men to contact us and try to understand the basic principle of this movement, how to elevate the human society to the proper standard of life and become peaceful in this life as well as in the next life.
Prabhupāda: Our men's productive. There must be food production, otherwise how the society will live. That is also a requirement. Good direction required, good government required, good production required, and good worker required. You can explain that there is no understanding of spiritual life. That they are missing the opportunity of human life.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a spiritual culture, and basically speaking the human society begins from dharma, or accepting the principle of God. Dharma begins with this acceptance of the principle of God, that human beings, their activities, have to be regulated. Just like in human society there is marriage. This is according to scripture. Every scripture regulates there must be marriage. This is dharma. It regulates certain activities that should be done, certain activities that should not be done. And basically speaking this is the beginning of human civilization; otherwise, they're simply living in a civilization of gross sense gratification which is in reality no different or no better than the society of animals. So from dharma, human society begins and generally... You can see practically that dharma generally focuses... People are taking that dharma is for the basis of economic development. This is proven practically because in pioneer times in America for example, people they were simple going to churches and synagogues, and temples and all kinds of things, what have you. And economic development was going on very nicely, in fact, economic development could not have gone on unless there was this principle of religion. People were very, practically speaking... In a pioneer situation people are very barbaric, struggle for existence—you know, you're in the country, there is no road, there's no cities—everyone is very, simply interested to maintain themselves. But by churches and things of this nature, people saw the need for a civilized give-and-take way of living—economic development. Then gradually, the ideas developed further and further, but in modern days we can see that people are having economic developments and there's no need for God, they think at least. In other words, people are no longer attending churches, synagogues, things of this nature, because they are making sufficient money without the need of religion. Therefore, the basic principle is being missed that human life is not simply meant for economic development. Human life—we analyze, we can say that...
Prabhupāda: Human life is meant for making a solution of all material problems.
Prabhupāda: No, 1893.
Interviewer: Ninety-three, I see. Since then there has been a lot of interest in this country in Indian philosophy. Recent gurus have come, they have talked about meditation. My own view is that all of these things have influenced the American people, but in a kind of intellectual fad, a kind of fashion. And it seems to me that your intention and aim is not merely to cater to the mind, cater to reason, cater to the intellect, but to effect a kind of transformation of man himself. Is this why you have introduced a whole way of living, a whole way of life, is it? Am I right in suggesting that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a different platform of life—a spiritual. Generally people are on the material platform, in the bodily concept of life, and the whole world is going on with that wrong conception of life. Actually, as soon as we think that we are this body, we are immediately on the platform of animal life. So in the Bhāgavata it is stated, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Anyone who is thinking, identifying himself with this body, and similarly with other references, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. In relation with body, we think of family, community, nationality. In this way our civilization is dog civilization. That is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when one understands that he is not this body. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Perhaps you have heard this word...
Interviewer: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...the Vedic mantras. "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, within this body there is the soul. So on account of presence of the soul we are transmigrating to different bodies. Just like from childhood to boyhood. The body of a boy is different from the body of a child, but the same soul who was within the body of a child has now come within the body of a boy. And the same soul again, he will go in the body of a young man. And the same soul again will go in the body of an old man. And the same soul, when the body of old man is finished, then he enters another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So the soul is transmigrating from one body to another. A part of it we can see in this life. I was in the child's body, I was in the boy's body, I was in the young man's body, now I am an old man's body. Similarly, as my child's body being finished, I have entered into the boy's body; my boy's body being finished, I have entered young man's body. Similarly, when this body will be finished, I shall enter another body, new body. That will be given to me by nature according to the mental condition at the time of my death. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). This is the law of nature. So people are not educated in the law of nature. They are educated in animalistic life. As the dog is thinking "I am dog," and barking, similarly, if a person thinks "I am Indian" or "I am American," so there's not much difference between the dog and the man. The man must think otherwise, that "I am not this body," then the civilization, human civilization, begins. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Unfortunately, there is no education. This education was little there. Even in India that is now becoming finished on account of this Western influence. So that is now practically finished. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement begins from the understanding that "I am not this body." Therefore its activities are different from the activities of bodily conception of life. People cannot understand. That is the difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. It was the prediction of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu that in every village, in every town on the surface of the globe, there will be preaching of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's name and the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. It is to be translated? (translator translates into French) So by your transcendental endeavor it is being fulfilled, otherwise who expected that in this remote village of France, Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra would be chanted? When Caitanya Mahāprabhu said in every village, in every town, he did not mean that every village and every town in India. He specifically says pṛthivīte, means on the surface of the globe. So the purpose is that without spreading of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, nobody can become happy. That's a fact. The opportunity of human form of life is systematcially being refused by the modern civilization. This material activity only for the bodily comforts of life, that is not human civilization. Human civilization means the human being must know the supreme controller and the aim of life. The real fact is that God is there, the supreme controller, and we, living entities, we are His parts and parcels. As parts and parcels of God, we, being separated, we are suffering. An example can be given in this connection, just like a small child is the part and parcel of the body of the mother. So the child is happy when the child is on the lap of the mother. That means the part and the whole must live together. Then there is happiness. Otherwise, there is distress. The modern godless civilization is making the part and the whole separated. Therefore the whole condition is chaotic. You have got experience in your this part of the globe, within fifty years there have been two big, big wars and... Many other parts also. People are not in happiness on account of godlessness. So actually if we want to be happy in this life and the next life, then we must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And it is not at all difficult: simply chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So I am very glad that you are accustomed to chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Stick to it and you'll all be happy. Thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Goal is there, because spirit is important. Without spirit, matter has no value. This is a material box, but because it has no spirit, it has no value. It has value, comparatively, but not as valuable as a human being because there is no spirit. You can move, if you like, you can go immediately, but this, for many thousands of years it will lie down here. It cannot move. Because there is no spirit. Therefore spirit is important. So this distinction is possible to understand in the human form of body. What is the distinction between a human being or a living man and this box? The distinction is that the living being has the spirit soul within and the box has no spirit soul within. Now if we take care of this box outwardly, that we should take; similarly if you take care of the body only, then where is spiritual culture? If you take care of the four principles of bodily necessities, eating, sleeping and sex and defense, then where is spiritual culture? The aim should be spiritual culture, at least for human beings. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand what is the distinction between spirit and soul, er, spirit and matter, but a human being can understand. This is spiritual side, this is material side. The spiritual side is important. Therefore the goal is how to understand the spiritual side. That is the goal. If we don't cultivate the spiritual side, simply we take care of the bodily side, then we remain animals. And because people are taking only care for the body, this is animal civilization. Human civilization means to take care of the spiritual side. If there is no such attempt to take care of the spiritual side, simply for the material side, then we are no better than the animals. Because they cannot take any care of the spiritual side. They can take care of the material side.
Prabhupāda: Similar description is there, bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ paraṁ padaṁ padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām (SB 10.14.58). Bhavāmbudhiḥ, the great ocean of material nescience, it becomes vatsa-padam, just like the water contained in the hoof impression of a calf. Bhavāmbudhir vatsa-padaṁ param. Exactly animal civilization. Animal does not know what is future, what is past, what is going to happen, nothing. The human civilization has become like that. Professor Kotovsky said, "Swamiji, after finishing this body, everything is finished." He's a big professor in Moscow. This is their civilization. What do they explain about the lower animals? Wherefrom they come, the birds, beasts, trees, insects?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Where, in Koran?
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say the modern scientists.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Modern scientists. One theory is the evolutionary process.
Prabhupāda: So wherefrom evolution begins?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They don't know how it began. Some say it came from water. How does life begin? Nobody really knows.
Hari-śauri: They say there has to be certain combination of gases, ammonia, water, some hydrogen.
Prabhupāda: They cannot make this gas and combine?
Hari-śauri: This is the way they are testing for life on Mars. This is one of the tests.
Prabhupāda: No, why Mars? In their laboratory they can make gas and mix.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) in favor of vegetarians. We are fools raising fodder and this thing and again raising animals on that and feeding on that. Why can't we directly feed on poor animals? I think the human race will survive more that way than by eating animals, but economically it is more sound.
Prabhupāda: Certainly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Kṛṣṇa never said māṁsād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa never said. This is artificial. In the lower stage of human civilization when they cannot produce food they do not know how to do it, so the animals are killed. What can they do? But actual food is anna, food grains. Even for the animals. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Yajñād bhavati bhū... So there is no yajña. There is no yajña. So this saṅkīrtana-yajña is the only yajña in Kali-yuga. So if they perform, everything is all right. There will be cloud, there will be rain.
Prabhupāda: So how you can take care with nothing? Kṛṣṇa makes you nothing, then how you can take care of your family? Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nārtasya ca... These things I have explained. That we have got so many means against struggle for existence, but that is not final. Tāvat tanu-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām. If there is no sanction from Kṛṣṇa, you cannot do it. It is impossible. If Kṛṣṇa does not like you to be implicated in that way, that is false, then how can you do it? You are thinking that I shall take care of my family. But if Kṛṣṇa wants that you cannot take care of your family then how you'll do it? Can you go against the will of Kṛṣṇa? You can understand at least this, if not very much advanced. You cannot go against the will of Kṛṣṇa. So you have tried for the last one and a half years, you could not improve your material situation. That means you are going against the will of Kṛṣṇa. Take it from me. Kata bāccā? Four (Hindi) Separate. No more together. (Hindi) Tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Everything is discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Kṛpaṇa, brāhmaṇa, kṛpaṇa, tṛpyanti neha. He knows that one bāccā has given me so much trouble. Illicit or legal, (Hindi) it is troublesome business. Otherwise why these Americans and Europeans, they're killing their own child. They don't want to take the botheration. (Hindi) So it is botheration, there is no doubt about it. The Bhāgavata says tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ. The kṛpaṇa (Hindi) What is the meaning of kṛpaṇa? Do you know? Miser. Miser, what is the meaning of miser? Yes. We have got this something, human form of body, to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Instead of doing that, in spite of possessing this something, I am utilizing it for sense gratification. If you want sense gratification that's all right. Get one child, two child. Why again and again? Therefore śāstra says tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇāḥ. Because he's kṛpaṇa, he's never satisfied. He's suffering—again, another child, again, another child. All right, you have got two child, one child, that's all right. Be satisfied. Why again and again? The kṛpaṇa. Kṛpaṇa, he does not know how to utilize this asset of human life. He's wasting the asset in a different way. Kṛpaṇa. One has to become brāhmaṇa. The opposite word of kṛpaṇa is brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That is wanted. So we are giving brāhmaṇa's position. Instead of taking the brāhmaṇa position, if he wants to take again kṛpaṇa position, then what is the use of being initiated? All these great sages, saintly person, who were they? They were all brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is always addressed, brāhmaṇa. Is it not? This is brāhmaṇa's business. It is not the kṛpaṇa's business. Kṛpaṇa's business means he does not know how to utilize the asset. So (Hindi) it is my duty to speak the truth. So now you can do whatever you like... Give him prasāda. (Break) ...these words, tṛpyanti neha kṛpaṇā bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ. They have been described, it is just like... Of course, it is very difficult, this itching. We have got practical experience. When there is some itching, we cannot stop it. We cannot stop it. Even if I do not want it, still... So it is like itching. Nothing more. Kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. The tapasya means how to control this itching sensation. This is tapasya. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya means, tapasya begins, now brahmacārī. That is tapasya. Tapasya means brahmacārī. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena, tyāgena, satya-śaucābhyāṁ yamena niyamena (SB 6.1.13). This is tapasya. It is very strong power, this... Therefore Bhāgavata said that this power, sex power, is there in the hogs. They have no discrimination between mother, sister, daughter. And simply busy. The example is given. This capacity is there in the hog. Are you hog? How example is given. Do you like to remain like a hog? One should be saintly. Yes. Then where is the difference, I'm a human being? I am treating like hog. Therefore this very example. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujām (SB 5.5.1). This is for the hogs. This hog civilization is going on as human civilization. That is the difficulty. Whole world is hogs and dogs.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Billiard-playing or some exhibition of singing, and hundreds of men will gather. And they were feasting, first-class food. In this way spending, spending, spending... And then prostitute, aristocracy. In this way one property and one property lost, everything. At last I saw him going by rickshaw. One day it was raining, and I saw that he was sitting in a rickshaw, and no friend asked him that, "Haren Babu, why you are...? You come to my car," so many. And he was friendly to so many zamindars, kings, and very intimate with... But they lost of everything, and nobody cares. His sons, they are of our age. I do not know whether living or not. But most probably they are not living. They became professional singers, coming of such aristocratic father. His father, that Mr. R. N. Singh, was a very good singer. That also was another aristocratic that aristocrat family—art, some art: painter, singer, poets. Just like Rabindranath Tagore. They became famous as artist. Avanindranatha Thakur, he became famous as artist, and Rabindranath Tagore became... They also followed the aristocratic family, Calcutta. Similarly, this R. N. Singh became a singer. Because they are rich men, they have nothing to do, so... And nobody instructed them how to become saintly person. Simply debauchery and... (break) On the whole the whole human civilization is..., and all the directors, they are not giving chance to know the value of life and how to conduct life. It is the first time, that we are giving the real idea of life. Otherwise whole world is in darkness. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatim. They do not know what is the end of life. Adānta... Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Vyāsadeva's real contribution... Ajānataḥ, lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām (SB 1.7.6). He has given the right direction. And they are not taking advantage of it. If they come to sense some day, they'll read all these books, and they will come to know how to live life. That is our contribution, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The whole world plunged into darkness. They do not know what is life and what is the aim of life. That's a fact. Periodically, they manufacture some ideas, and people will follow, and then it is failure, and again another revolution. They are..., the Russian philosophy, that periodically revolution required. That is also to some extent. But why revolution? Take the standard. They do not know what is the standard.
Prabhupāda: "Easy Journey to Other Planets. So this is a different culture, how to go to other planetary system, how to transfer the soul from one body to another. In other planets there are also living entities. One can transfer himself, after giving up this body, to anywhere he likes without any help of the sputnik, and without the help of the sputnik or any flying machine. This is the mystic system unknown to the world, but it is authorized in the Vedas, original culture of the human civilization."
Hari-śauri: It's on the tape. I'm recording it too.
Prabhupāda: So, "A preliminary booklet is presented herewith to your good self. Kindly read it carefully and let me know your reaction. We are prepared to answer all intricate questions in this subject." In this way present.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fine. I have made a lot of friends in Russia. I was going to send them. Only problem... Actually, I'll tell you what's happening with my correspondence with Russia. The Russian spying agency is so strong, they're not letting my letters get through, because...
Prabhupāda: Then don't send. What is the use of sending?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually what I was thinking of was, in my letters...
Prabhupāda: First of all see one man. Test.
Prabhupāda: Anyāyenārtha-sañcayān.
Hari-śauri: "They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification."
Prabhupāda: Is there any purport?
Hari-śauri: "The demoniac accept that the enjoyment of the senses is the ultimate goal of life, and this concept they maintain until death. They do not believe in life after death, and they do not believe that one takes on different types of bodies according to one's karma, or activities in this world. Their plans for life are never finished, and they go on preparing plan after plan, all of which are never finished. We have personal experience of a person of such demoniac mentality..."
Prabhupāda: I am talking of that man. (laughter)
Hari-śauri: "...who even at the point of death was requesting the physician to prolong his life for four years more because his plans were not yet complete. Such foolish people do not know that a physician cannot prolong life even for a moment. When the notice is there, there is no consideration of the man's desire. The laws of nature do not allow a second beyond what one is destined to enjoy. The demoniac person, who has no faith in God or the Supersoul within himself, performs all kinds of sinful activities simply for sense gratification. He does not know that there is a witness sitting within his heart. The Supersoul is observing the activities of the individual soul. As it is stated in Vedic literature, the Upaniṣads, there are two birds sitting in one tree. One is acting and enjoying or suffering the fruits of the branches, and the other is witnessing. But one who is demoniac has no knowledge of Vedic scripture, nor has he any faith. Therefore he feels free to do anything for sense enjoyment, regardless of the consequence."
Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). So on the whole, people are in darkness. And that is going on as advancement. This is the only institution to give them some light. There is no doubt about it. All in the darkness. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are in darkness, and some leader comes, he is also in the darkness, and both of them fall into the ditch. This is going on. Do you agree to this point? Otherwise you cannot become good preacher. You must yourself, must be convinced that actually this is the position. All these rascals, scientists, philosophers, politicians—they're all in darkness, and they're misguiding people. That's all. One of the first-class rascal in darkness is your Darwin. He's in favor of Darwin's theory. Another first-class demon is that Freud. (laughter) These are the guides of the modern civilization. Anthropomorphism.
Prabhupāda: Money they get. But they can live. But there is no culture. They want liquor. So these rascals do not know how we are making human civilization. They do not see it, that without any fixed income we are maintaining such a huge establishment all over the world, without any fixed income. How we are doing? We are not thieves, we are not rogues. We are all gentlemen.
Gargamuni: In India they say the CIA is funding you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They may say anything, but actually what we are?
Rāmeśvara: In America they are supporting the unemployed through federal and state welfare, which is paid for by tax money. So the more the unemployment increases, the more the taxes...
Prabhupāda: Taxes increase.
Prabhupāda: There are many opinion that "This movement is... Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will save the human society." There are many opinions like that. That's a fact.
Gargamuni: And many parents have said that "My children have been saved." Hayagrīva's...
Prabhupāda: No, these books especially. There are many opinions—"It will save the human civilization from going to hell."
Gargamuni: One scholar, Asutosh Mukherjee, he said this, "These books will save the world." In that review...
Rāmeśvara: Yeah, right. He said from the... Nice words.
Hari-śauri: Seems only the Indian scholars have got that vision, though. Only the Indian scholars have appreciated that these books have a chance for saving the whole humanity.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is our mission. We want to save.
Hari-śauri: You said in that article in the BTG that women's liberation means that they get more exploited.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The giving them bluff that "You become liberated" means "We shall exploit you, young girls." This is the idea behind. Because the karmīs, they want sex, young girls, and they get energy to work. The Europeans, Americans, they work so hard. They get energy from new, new girls. This is psychology, Therefore they work like hogs and dogs. Dog civilization. Hog civilization. Because the hog has no restriction, either mother, sister, or anyone, "Come on." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājām..., kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This civilization is for the hogs, to take energy by sex with mother, sister, and anyone, and work hard. It is stated in the Bhāgavata. I have not manufactured. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). And here is the civilization. Tapo divyam. Be brahmacārī, undergo austerities and rectify your, this conditioned life, birth and death. This is human civilization. Why you are under birth and death? One life remain brahmacārī and solve all the question. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Teach them, these rascals—they are accusing, "brainwashing"—that this is civilization. It is not civilization to work hard like hogs and dogs and have sex enjoyment. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Gargamuni: Chemical reaction.
Prabhupāda: So poor fund of knowledge. Accident? Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. "A man and woman becomes lusty, they have sex, and it, the body, the form, comes out. So you can cut it and then eat it." Very horrible condition of the human civilization. It is the only institution throughout the whole world who are trying to deliver people from this ignorance. We are the only. All bogus. They do not know anything, what is religion, what is happiness, what is spiritual life. Nobody knows. No... But that was covered. Now we are opening religion. The thing was there. It is not our invention, neither we can invent. But it is still unknown, and therefore they are unhappy. Their primary problem, where to live, how to eat, how to cover—that we shall take charge. Then what is the problem? You have got free boarding, free lodging, free cloth, and so much enlightenment. What do you want more?
Satsvarūpa: Some people don't like to live in the community.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Satsvarūpa: Some people, they don't want to join...
Prabhupāda: Community, if you don't, you independently live. But this is the principle.
Prabhupāda: All debauch. Because they're getting fat salary. What they'll do? They do not know how to use it. Wine, woman, restaurant, dance-finish. So we have got very pessimistic view of this modern world. You may like or not. Simply spoiling time. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Simply work without any profit of the human form of life. And nobody is interested to correct the procedure. If we try to correct them, they will accuse us that "These people are brainwashed. They deviating these young men from the general procedure of human civilization." Hm? What is this? Illicit sex stopped? Then where is life? This is life, if young boys and young girls mix freely and have sex, and as soon as she is pregnant, you go away, let her suffer, no responsibility. The poor girl, long before, father, mother divorce—no protector. And as soon as she selects somebody husband, and as soon as pregnancy, he goes away. And old age—there is no family, no son. Ninety-nine percent the woman class live like that. How hopelessly the old ladies are sitting down—only one cat, one dog, one television. The old men also like that, hopelessness. Or drinking or seeing the television. And a dog friend. Is that life? And we want to correct it—"brainwash."
Prabhupāda: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war, and such a big war, Kurukṣetra, in eighteen days it is finished. This is decision. And this is going on, continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, Parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: If you keep the dogs as dogs, they'll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole world will be... This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. It is a fact.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This process gives one the strength to carry it forward more and more.
Prabhupāda: Āpani ācari' prabhu jīve śikhāilā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He did so. The whole human civilization is on a risky platform.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't see how the present civilization can stand up against our devotees if we remain strong.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It cannot. Prahlāda Mahārāja... Such a gigantic demon could not do anything. He was five years old boy, was sticking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all, only that strength and he faced the dangerous position of a gigantic demon like Hiraṇyakaśipu. Even the demigods were afraid. So remain like Prahlāda Mahārāja, pure. Nobody can do anything. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So take rest and...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Prabhupāda: Then?
Hari-śauri:
- cintām aparimeyāṁ ca
- pralayāntām upāśritāḥ
- kāmopabhoga-paramā
- etāvad iti niścitāḥ
- āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhāḥ
- kāma-krodha-parāyaṇāḥ
- īhante kāma-bhogārtham
- anyāyenārtha-sañcayān
"They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification."
Prabhupāda: Hm. Leave it, this.
Hari-śauri: If this gets read in the court, they'll really...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is perfect for the court. And the purports are very strong.
Prabhupāda: There is purport?
Hari-śauri: To all of those, yes. Long purports. Should I read all the purports?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Pradyumna: Yes, restrained. Subdued.
Prabhupāda: Subdued. So then there is no chance. Kancai no wale basa mas korbe tas tas:(?) "If you want to bend this bamboo, when it is green, you can do it. And if it is yellow, can't. It will break." Tas, tas. This is Bengali. If you take one yellow bamboo, to bend it, it will crack and make sound, "Tas, tas." But when it is green, you can bend it. Kancai no wale paca means green. (Bengali) Kancai no wale basa mas korbe tas tas.(?) First human civilization begins when you restrain the children not to become restless. This is the training. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dānto guror hitam. This training is lacking. Therefore even in old age, the washerman business. I am bodily conscious, and I am training others also to become bodily conscious: "You feel like Indian," "You feel like American," "You feel like Englishman." This is education, the same dehātma-buddhi, that "I am this body," extended. The extended feeling of bodily consciousness, is that advancement? Is that advancement? The bodily consciousness is animalism. (aside:) Why you are taking? Huh? No, no. You keep it.
Prabhupāda: This is real socialism. God is the supreme father. Everyone has got right to live at the cost of the father's property. But you cannot take more than that. Then you are a thief. Take whatever you... And even by nature you will find. You just immediately throw one bag of rice, so many birds will come. And they will take one or two grain or something... They will go away. And the human being, oh, he will take five shares, he will take ten shares. And within one hour, ten mounds of rice will be finished. The birds and beasts will not do that. Whatever he actually requires, they will take from there. Therefore they are not subjected to the sinful activities. Only human beings are subjected to sinful activities. But he has got developed consciousness and misusing it. There is no sinful activities for animals lower than the human being. There is no sin. Because they are under the laws of nature, the animals. And as soon as one becomes developed conscious human being, if he does not know the śāstra and guided by spiritual master, he will do all nonsense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Vikarma, all sinful activities. Only for sense gratification. Mad after sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. And what is the purpose of doing so many sinful activities? Yad indriya-prītaya, only for sense gratification. There is no other aim. Ṛṣabhadeva says, "No, no, don't do this." So who is giving protection to these rascals who are educated to act sinfully? That is in Bhāgavata. "No, no." Na sādhu manye. "This is not good." "But why not good? Let me enjoy." "No, you will not enjoy. You will create another body for suffering." Yata ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). You are already suffering. You have got this body. You are already suffering on account of your past activities. And you are creating again another body for suffering. So it is not good. They do not know. (Hindi) Four-wheel dogs. That is advancement of civilization. The dog is running with four legs, and he is running with four wheels. Dag-dag-dag-dag-dag. Where you are going? And this is their scientific advancement. Competition with dog. Otherwise what they have done? The ant hill, and four-legged wheel. That's all. Four wheel legs. This is animal civilization. Without knowing the aim of life, living in big, big skyscraper building, "I am king." And running like dogs with four wheel car, Mercedes. This is dog civilization. It is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when they take Kṛṣṇa's instructions: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Divide the whole human society into four divisions and let them cooperatively act for the benefit of God. That is civilization. There civilization begins. Otherwise, what is the difference between dog and the human being? There is no difference. The leaders are teaching, "Feel like Indians." As a dog is feeling, "I am bulldog." This is our leaders.
Prabhupāda: ...always studying, for the last ten years. It is my conclusion that originally everything Indian, that is very, very high grade—for human society, for personal. That is actual human civilization. Everything, hygienic principles, Vedic knowledge, moral knowledge, everything perfect.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm going to tell them to... It's good to take rest now.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Otherwise it will increase. In your sickness, if you go on working, it will increase. Better take rest.
Devotee: Ginger, and keep warm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night you were translating a little bit.
Prabhupāda: I began, but...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You stopped.
Prabhupāda: No, stopped not for my incapability, but I stopped it feeling sleepy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I mean you are taking so little prasādam that it is not to be expected that you can do very much physical activity. But I can see one thing is that you are very now fully recovered and alert.
Prabhupāda: I think so.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So many things, everything. Yeah, practically this whole civilization now is a cheating civilization.
Prabhupāda: Whatever name you can give, it is not civilization. That we have to... Not that "How they are cheating." But it is not human civilization; it is animal. Just as animals cheat naturally. Animal fight. So we have to prove this is animal civilization. (Bengali or Hindi) This is not human civilization. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness it is not human civilization. That we have to prove. How it is not? You have to prove that "This is animal civili... This is not human civili..." Real human business is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's para-upakāra. In ignorance they are doing all nonsense. Stop them. Give them knowledge. This Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is real civilization. That we have to prove. It is clearly stated in... Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious-duṣkṛtina, simply cheating. And therefore narādhama, lowest of the mankind. And human life he's spoiling by cheating like animal. Who cheats? The man who doesn't care for the authority. He cheats. And if a man is afraid of law and government, he does not cheat. So godless person means cheater.
Prabhupāda: Dog is also doing that. Is he householder? Taking care of children, the dog is also doing that. So is he householder? First of all, you do not know what is meant by householder. Taking care of children, that is done by the birds. In the nest the small kiddies are there, and they are bringing food and pushing in the mouth, (makes bird noise:) "Tee, tee, tee, tee, tee." Are they householder? And if you think they are householder, you are also householder like the dogs and birds. You do not know what is householder. Therefore you have to consult śāstra, who is a householder. Śāstra says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum: "You should not become a father and mother unless you take the responsibility for children that no more birth." Because this is the problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). If you are so able father and mother that you can stop this miserable condition of your children, then you become householder. That is householder. Otherwise what is the use of becoming a householder like dogs and cats? There is no use. There are so many cats and dogs. What is use of increasing? Now government is forcing: "Do not produce cats and dogs. Take these inhibitions(?)." Because the whole world is fed up with these cats and dogs householders. Real householder is, śāstra says, "Don't become a father, don't become a mother, if you cannot protect your children..." Samupeta-mṛtyum. And they are required. If you can do that, then you are welcome. You can produce hundreds of children. But you cannot protect yourself; how you'll be able to protect your children? All bogus. Householder is allowed, as brahmacārī-āśrama, gṛhastha-āśrama. It is not meant that... Big, big personality were householder. Lord Rāmacandra was householder. Arjuna was householder. Prahlāda Mahārāja was a householder. Janaka Mahārāja was householder. But they were not cats and dogs. So be householder. You do the duty of real householder. Don't become cats and dogs. Then where is human civili...? What is the distinct between cats and dogs and human civilization if you do the same thing? Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. Then you are huma..., not even human being. What is the question of householder? Be householder as it is in the civilized codes, human history, they are... Otherwise refrain. Householder does not mean to satisfy, what is called, itching sensation of the genitals. That is not householder. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). To satisfy the itching sensation, that is not householder. Here is householder. Protect your children from death. Can you do that? That kind of householder, at least, the trees on the street, everywhere... There is no question of becoming householder. The whole Bhagavad-gītā... Arjuna, he was householder. He was politician. So he did not give up anything. Before his hearing Bhagavad-gītā he was the same, a large family, and he was fighting for some material interests. And after hearing Bhagavad-gītā he remained the same, not that he gave up fighting and went to the forest. These things are not required. But he changed his consciousness-kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). And that is required. You remain in any condition of life, but follow the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. That is the perfection.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Don't talk. Why you are talking? So our real trouble is that we have become conditioned by the material identification, "I am this body." Everyone is thinking, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am sannyāsī," everything, identification with the body. That is the dirty thing. So one has to purify, that "I am neither American, neither Indian, nor brāhmaṇa, or so many designations." Then it is called cleansing the heart. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is mukti, when you don't identify with this material body. And so long you identify with this material body, either you become a sannyāsī with some beard or a gṛhastha without some beard, the same thing, identifying with the body. So ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12) means to become free from the bodily designation. And śāstra says, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). This body is composition of three dhātu, kapha, pitta, vāyu, according to Āyur Veda; and according to medical science, it is skin and then muscle, blood, bone, and marrow, stool, urine, those, combination. So I am not this combination of stool, bone, skin, blood. But people are taking that. When they are diseased, they take care of the body. Of course, it is not that we should not take care. But that is superficial. Real care should be taken of the soul within the body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Dehinaḥ, dehī. Dehinaḥ and deha. So anyone who is identifying with this body in either... According to Vedic civilization, the bodily identification is divided into eight: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Varṇāśrama-dharma. So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, cātur-varṇyam, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa. After fiftieth year one must take to vānaprastha, vanaṁ vrajet. This is system.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a process of making this animal society into human civilization. At the present moment especially, all animals. I take them as animals. Therefore I say so boldly. I care for them. They are animals. That's all. Maybe very well do. I have not said. Bhāgavata says. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). What are these leaders? Paśu. "Paśu? And they are so much held in estimation." Whom? By whom? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: "They are in estimation by the dogs and hogs and camels and asses." Actually they have no position. The public is dog, hog, camel and.... And they are selecting one leader. So what he should be? Another big paśu, another big camel, another big ass. That's all. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. (Bengali) A big animal. These leaders, they are only big animals. Just like in the jungle, a lion. A very powerful. Then does it mean that he's human being? He's animal. May be an elephant or lion, but he's not human being. A human child is more important than this lion. It doesn't matter that the human child is taken away by the lion and immediately killed or carried. That does not make the lion very important. (Bengali) A big paśu.
Prabhupāda: And you did not take?
Akṣayānanda: I take. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...I stressed in other that in India strictly maintain an institution, following Bhagavad-gītā's conclusion. That we are trying to do. It is not a new invention. It is already there. If it is not possible to maintain such an institution, then human civilization will be finished. There is no hope. And it is now being effective worldwide. Why India should not maintain?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Actually he was very praiseworthy of your efforts. He said, "I know what Prabhupāda has done." If in some way Mr. Morarji Desai can be brought to you, that will be very...
Prabhupāda: No, no, he's a very big lion. He will not agree to come. You don't try for.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we're not trying. Just if sometimes we're in Delhi or something, if we... Like he still has a lot of good habits. He's material...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is the purport?
Upendra: This material world is called the world of death. Every living being, beginning from Brahmā, whose duration of life is some thousands of millions of years, down to the germs who live for a few seconds only, is struggling for existence. Therefore, this life is a sort of fight with material nature, which imposes death upon all. In the human form of life, a living being is competent enough to come to an understanding of this great struggle for existence, but being too attached to family members, society, country, etc., he wants to win over the invincible material nature by the aid of bodily strength, children, wife, relatives, etc. Although he is sufficiently experienced in the matter by dint of past experience and previous examples of his deceased predecessors, he does not see that the so-called fighting soldiers like the children, relatives, society members and countrymen are all fallible in the great struggle. One should examine the fact that his father or his father's father has already died, and that he himself is therefore also sure to die, and similarly, his children, who are the would-be fathers of their children, will also die in due course. No one will survive in this struggle with material nature. The history of human society definitely proves it, yet the foolish people still suggest that in the future they will be able to live perpetually, with the help of material science. This poor fund of knowledge exhibited by human society is certainly misleading, and it is all due to ignoring the constitution of the living soul. This material world exists only as a dream, due to our attachment to it. Otherwise, the living soul is always different from the material nature. The great ocean of material nature is tossing with the waves of time, and the so-called living conditions are something like foaming bubbles, which appear before us as bodily self, wife, children, society, countrymen, etc. Due to a lack of knowledge of self, we become victimized by the force of ignorance and thus spoil the valuable energy of human life in a vain search after permanent living conditions, which are impossible in this material world.
Our friends, relatives and so-called wives and children are not only fallible, but also bewildered by the outward glamor of material existence. As such, they cannot save us. Still we think that we are safe within the orbit of family, society or country.
The whole materialistic advancement of human civilization is like the decoration of a dead body. Everyone is a dead body flapping only for a few days, and yet all the energy of human life is being wasted in the decoration of this dead body. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is pointing out the duty of the human being after showing the actual position of bewildered human activities. Persons who are devoid of the knowledge of ātma-tattva are misguided, but those who are devotees of the Lord and have perfect realization of transcendental knowledge are not bewildered.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes I become surprised how I have written this. Although I am the writer, still sometimes I am surprised how these things have come. Such vivid description. Where is such literature throughout the whole world? It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Every line is perfect.
Prabhupāda: This is soul-killing civilization, this kind way of life, especially European countries. Anywhere you can inhabit it. It is not very difficult. A cottage; you can produce your own food anywhere. Am I right?
Haṁsadūta: Yes, Prabhupāda. We will do it.
Prabhupāda: And money, spend for Kṛṣṇa—for Kṛṣṇa's palace, for Kṛṣṇa's temple, for Kṛṣṇa's worship, gorgeous, as gorgeously as... Not for false... This is the human civilization. And to organize this, varṇāśrama will help you to divide the society—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—as there is division in the body. That will help. Don't waste human form of body for sense gratification. I wanted to introduce this. Now I have given you ideas. You can do it. You are all intelligent. For Caitanya Mahāprabhu's para-upakāra... So you do good to others. Not exploit others. Any human being who has been bestowed by this body has the capacity to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them chance and make situation favorable. Is that clear?
Haṁsadūta: Yes, it's clear, Prabhupāda. You have made everything very clear.
Prabhupāda: Passed stool.
| Page Title: | Human civilization (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 27 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=92, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 92 |