Prabhupāda: There are so many departments in universities, technological, medical, engineering, but where is the department to know or understand what is this life, what is God, what is our relationship? So this is not very good civilization. So there is life after this life. Just like progressive life, a child is progressing to youthhood, the youth is aspiring to become a big man, important man. As in this life there is progressive life, similarly, life after life, there is also progress. There are different grades of life. So we get information from authoritative books that there are 8,400,000's of different grades of life, and there are 900,000's of aquatic life, two million species of plants and trees, about eleven hundred thousand species of life of birds, three million types of species of beast, and 400,000 species of this human body. Out of that 400,000's, different kinds of human bodies, the civilized body is a great boon. At that time we can make further progress. Either we can transfer to other planets... The standard of living, comforts, are many, many thousands times better than this planet.
Human body (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: As in this life there is progressive life, similarly, life after life, there is also progress. There are different grades of life. So we get information from authoritative books that there are 8,400,000's of different grades of life, and there are 900,000's of aquatic life, two million species of plants and trees, about eleven hundred thousand species of life of birds, three million types of species of beast, and 400,000 species of this human body. Out of that 400,000's, different kinds of human bodies, the civilized body is a great boon. At that time we can make further progress. Either we can transfer to other planets... The standard of living, comforts, are many, many thousands times better than this planet. But in this book, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, we get information that within this material universe, wherever you go, either you remain in this planet or you go to the moon planet or to the sun planet, or there are millions and trillions of planets...
Prabhupāda: That is eating. Finish. You can eat. Sleeping. When you are fast asleep, you do not know whether you are on the nice building in a nice apartment. You are dreaming that you are thrown into the ocean. So sleeping. So simply for nice arrangement for sleeping, is that civilization? (break) Then life is successful. At least, if one understands that "This is my business. My business is not to work hard and end it by sense gratification. This is not my business." That is saṁsiddhi. That is success. If, at least, one understands this aim of life, even little understands, he gets next human body. That is guaranteed. At least, he is not going to get any cats' and dogs' body. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41). When Arjuna inquired that if a man cannot execute this yoga system, Bhakti-yoga system, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if it is half finished or one-fourth finished, or 10% finished, not complete finished, then what is the result? He is good for nothing?
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: ...your devatā finished. But your relationship with Kṛṣṇa will never finish-nityo nityānāṁ—because you are nitya, Kṛṣṇa is nitya. That relationship, we have to reestablish that relation. That is the function of the human body. If you are simply busy with this temporary nature, then you are losing time. The temporary relationship will... Just like I came here; now, tomorrow I am going. So, say, for fortnight the relation was there. Now you'll have another relation. Similarly, after this body I do not know what relation, what father, mother, I will get and what relation will be established. What community will be established I do not know. And then I will forget. Now those who are Indian, but suppose in his last birth he was Chinaman. He has forgotten. Now he's fighting for India's cause. If the Chinaman is fighting for China's cause. This is disease.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Liberated means at the present moment under this material, in this material world, he is accepting material body, and when he is bona fide servant of Kṛṣṇa, he'll be offered a spiritual body. Just like a soldier. A person, so long he's not a soldier, he does not, he is not awarded the uniform. But as soon as he accepts the service as a soldier, immediately he is given the uniform. So you are accepting different bodies in the material world, and that is bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You are accepting one type of body, it is becoming vāṇīshed, again you have to accept another. But as soon as you become perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), then, after leaving this body, he does not come to this material world. He is immediately... Mam eti, he transfers. Similarly, he accepts spiritual body. Is it clear or not? You are accepting material body now, birth after birth. Is it not? That is transmigration. Sometimes you are accepting human body, sometimes you are accepting dog's body, sometimes you are accepting king's body, sometimes you are accepting somebody else. Is it not? Is it clear?
Prabhupāda: It is impossible. Our idea is that best ideas from the original idea. Just like in the Bhāgavata there is a description of communistic idea, and it is being described to Mahārāja Yudhisthira. So if there is something good, good experience, why it should not be adopted? That is our point of view. And besides that, in the modern civilization they are missing one point: the aim of human life, scientifically. The aim of human life is self-realization, ātmā-tattvam. It is said, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ yāvan na jijñāsa ātmā-tattvam. Unless the human society comes to the point of self-realization, whatever they are doing, they are being defeated, parābhava. I think you know this word, parābhava. Parābhava. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. So actually it is happening so. The modern society, human society, there is advancement, economic advancement, so many things, advancement. Still, in the matter of keeping peace and tranquility there is fight, individually, socially, politically, nationally. So if we think very cool-headed, then in spite of so much improvement in so many branches of knowledge, we are keeping the same mentality of quarreling. That is also visible in lower animal society. So our conclusion, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that this body, human body, it is not meant for working very hard for sense gratification.
Revatīnandana: It's fundamentally a God conscious attitude, that this body, this human body is meant for spiritual realization. The fact that the body has got sexual desire, therefore we make a concession for that. We use it for begetting good children. If one wants to marry, he can marry and have good children, and raise them to love God. But the real purpose of human life is not just to enjoy sex life like the cats and dogs. Human life has got a higher purpose. So therefore we believe that our human energy should be utilized in that way, for reducing the eating, the sleeping, the sex life. Reducing these things to the minimum, as much as necessary, rather than as much as possible. And having as much as necessary, that leaves most of our time and energy for cultivating our God consciousness. See what I mean? Therefore the idea is that sex life is the highest happiness for man, we don't subscribe to that. It's the biggest happiness in this material world. But spiritual life means unending happiness. A human being can experience this. The dog or cat can't. So for them there is eating, sleeping, sex life, defending themselves. But a human being can experience higher pleasure in God consciousness. So we think that... Therefore we use our energy in that direction.
Sister Mary: So it isn't a negation of pleasure, but it's a higher pleasure.
Guest (2): Can I ask...
Prabhupāda: This is very important point, that we are not negating pleasure, but we are trying to bring them to the highest pleasure.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Then the wings fly there, and the jaws catch the food, and after all he puts into the mouth. Similarly, as in this body, this particular example, the stomach is the enjoyer, similarly, the central figure of whole cosmic manifestation, material or spiritual, the central figure is Kṛṣṇa, God. He's the enjoyer. We can understand. As in my this particular body, the body is also a creation. The body has got the same mechanism as you will find out in the whole universe. The same mechanical, anywhere you go, you find even in animals or human body or in the cosmic manifestation. Almost the same mechanism. So as you understand very easily that in this body, my body, your body, the stomach is the enjoyer. Or there is a central enjoyer. And the stomach is friend also of everyone. Because if we cannot digest food, you see, then all other limbs of the body they become weak. Therefore stomach is the friend. It is digesting and distribute the energy to all the limbs of the body. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: We say that in whatever occupation you may be, try to find out some time and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our preaching. So it will help you. At least you will get, even if you are attached to the material activities, you will get next birth a human body, rich family, another chance, or Vaiṣṇava family. That is also great benefit. Even there is no salvation, but he gets opportunity again. (sings another line) So Karandhara Prabhu, what advantage you will get by opening their office there?
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. So Veda, Veda means knowledge. So every human being should be interested for advancement of knowledge. So our movement is not a religious movement. It is a movement for advancement of knowledge. And this knowledge, God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is especially meant for this human body. Because knowledge cannot be given to animals. I cannot speak to the other animals about knowledge because they are imperfect. Their body is imperfect. They are not suitable for receiving knowledge. Only elementary knowledge for maintaining this body, they have got: where to secure food, where to sleep, how to have sexual intercourse, and how to defend. These knowledges are there in animals also. So human being requires further knowledge. That is special prerogative, gift by God, by nature. Whatever you say. So we should utilize this human body for furtherance of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Your real dimension is mentioned there that you are a spiritual atom. The measurement is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That is the seed, or basic principle. Now, on that small particle of spirit soul we have developed this body. We have got human bodies, other has got the elephant body, other has got the mountainous body, but this is external. The real seed is that one ten-thousandth part of the hair. Similarly, as you have developed this material body under different consciousness, similarly when we give up the material connection we shall develop our spiritual body, and in that spiritual body we shall be able to enter the kingdom of God, back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. This body you have to give up, today or tomorrow or one hundred years after. You have to give it up.
Prabhupāda: And when we finally get free from the subtle body also, we go back home, back to Godhead. It is that easy. Human beings therefore should endeavor to get out of this gross and subtle body, attain the spiritual body and go back home. That should be the aim of human endeavor. Not that we should simply live like animals. Animals cannot get out of the gross and subtle body because to extricate oneself one must know in fact what God is. An animal cannot know what God is, but a human being can. That is the opportunity afforded by this body; nature gives us this human body just to understand God, and if we simply use it for animal propensities, we again go to the animal kingdom. That is a form of punishment.
Prabhupāda: "All of them—as they surrender unto Me—I reward accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Pṛthā." God is everything, and we can associate with Him according to our choice. The ability to choose, or our conscience, is given to us in the human form so we can utilize it. All the ingredients are there. The spiritual master is there, the scripture is there, and God is there, within you and within me. The atmosphere is calm and quiet, we have a good boat and a good navigator, and the wind is blowing favorably. We should take our chance and cross the ocean. This human body is a very nice boat, and we have a very good navigator, the spiritual master. We also have a very favorable wind—the instructions of God. If we don't take this opportunity and solve the problems of life, we are cutting our own throat. If you cut your own throat, who can save you? We can say, "Now here is an opportunity. Take it and be saved from birth, old age, disease and death," but if you don't take advantage, what can we do?
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: They are advanced in consciousness. They are advanced in consciousness. Suppose you are advanced in consciousness. So you are not going to get the dog's body or cat's body. You get another human body. Yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate. Yoga-bhraṣṭaḥ is not ordinary man. He is practicing yoga, but somehow or another could not fulfill. Therefore he gets again human body. He does not get the cat's body, dog's body. So he directly comes to the human body. There is no question of evolution. Same example. The apartments are already there. If you can pay more, "Come on, this apartment is ready for you." Not that you have to come from the lower platform, lower animal apartments. Daiva-netreṇa. The judgement will be done by the higher authorities. They do not know that.
Karandhara: They have to have a human body in order to enjoy that philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Their philosophy is that there is only one-God. So cats and dogs, that is God's līlā. That is their rascal philo... God is making pastimes, līlā, by becoming a dog. That is their rascal philosophy. Daridra-nārāyaṇa. Vivekananda's philosophy. Nārāyaṇa has become daridra, poor. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So with chemists we have no quarrel if they begin from light. They're beginning from darkness. That is our contention. We say, "Begin from light." And they say, "No, begin from darkness." Because they're in darkness. One who is in the darkness, from darkness, if he goes to light, he thinks that the darkness is the beginning.
Prabhupāda: That, that, that difference is due to development of consciousness. The human body, human body, you get developed consciousness. Just like this tree. It is also a living entity, but it's consciousness is not yet fructified. If you cut the tree, it does not resist. But it resists in a very small degree. That is proved by the scientists. The Sir Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he's also a very great scientist. He has made machine: when you cut the tree, it feels and it is recorded in the machine.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: Just like you have got the desire to purchase another dress, garment, nicer, but if you have no money, then how you can purchase? You have to purchase something inferior. So these different species of life is the evolution of the living soul according to his karma. That is Vedic instruction. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). So I am a living entity. If I want to go to better condition of life, then I'll have to pay for it. Better condition is there already. Not this inferior condition changes into that better condition. That is another thing. Just like the condition in moon planet is different from the condition of this earthly planet. That is already there. You have to transfer yourself from this planet to that planet. So that point is missing in Darwin's theory. He says that body is evolving. That is nonsense. The body is evolving, then why the monkey body is not producing a human body at the present moment? Where is the evidence? The monkeys are already there. Where is the evidence in the zoo that a monkey has produced a human being? Do you think it is all right?
Paramahaṁsa: Cro-magnon, and it was the same human body as now, as we have now. They have discovered. And with this discovery, they say, completely all of Darwin's theories have been destroyed. This is a fact. Immediately see. He overlooked. He says: "I do not see any proof that human beings lived, millions of years ago. Therefore I think apes were existing." But what proof does he have? And how they have discovered bones and they have proven by tests that Cro-magnon era there was the same human body. It's a fact. And completely his, all his theories have been destroyed. Because he again, he was working with his illusory senses.
Dr. Hauser: Hmm. But there are the dinosaurs for example. The dinosaurs, yes. Which died and disappeared from the earth. And that is also a kind of evolution that has taken place.
Haṁsadūta: He says there are these prehistoric animals like dinosaurs, these big, gigantic animals, they are no longer existing now, but they existed at one time. So there, there was some evolution there.
Dr. Hauser: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: But the point is Vedic, Vedic conclusion is...
Prabhupāda: No, but, apart from Vedic conclusion, this example, that practically, when I go from this apartment to another apartment, so this apartment does not become another apartment. I go from this apartment to another apartment. He's missing that "I". Or "you". That is his nonsense.
Prabhupāda: He does not know. The apartment does not change. The owner of the apartment goes from one apartment to another. That he does not know. Therefore he's cheating. He does not, he has no perfect knowledge, and he's cheating. Cheater. He does not know. The soul, from the monkey's body is coming to human body. That is nice. Not that the monkey's body is changing into human body.
Dr. Hauser: But some of this cheating, as you call it, must have, have still been a great use to mankind because it has not been proven at the time when this theory has been evoked by some scientist, it has not been proven that he's right, but he works according to this principle that he has got, and then later...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that is explained in Bhāgavatam that in the jungle one big animal is the leader of other animals. That's all. But they're animals. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: He's sticking to his own principle of life, but he's not a Kṛṣṇa conscious devotee. Then what is his gain? He'll simply take the fruits of his material activities and he'll have to accept another body according to that. But here, as it is assured in Bhagavad-gītā that śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41), this man, who took by sentiment Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but could not follow it to the end; by some way or other, he has fallen but he'll be given chance to take birth as a human being, guaranteed, in rich family, or in nice devotee family, yogi family or brāhmaṇa family. So he'll be given chance. But that man will take only the reaction of his activities. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). So if he has acted like cats and dogs, he'll get the cats and dogs. But here it is guaranteed, here it is guaranteed that he's going to get another human body and very nice family.
Prabhupāda: You cannot become boss of the prakṛti. You are under prakṛti. The boss of prakṛti is Kṛṣṇa. māyādhīśa. (break) ...guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. You are getting different types of body on account of your association with the different modes of material nature. Why one soul has got this body, dog's body, and why one soul has got a human body? Everything is being done by prakṛti, by nature. Now in this human form of body, you get that discrimination, "What should I do?" If you act like cats and dogs in this life, then you are missing the chance. You do not take advantage of the power of discrimination. Bhagavad-gītā says, dehāntaram: "Another body one gets." So another body... And next body I can get this dog's body. But you have... In human form of life you have got the discriminating power not to get the dog's body, but you can get the body of a god. That you can do. Now it is our discrimination, "Whether I am going to get a dog's body or god's body." That you can do. This is human form of body.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Some scientists, they want to make all the different body parts. They want to give artificial arm, then artificial feet, and they're, they're spending all kinds of money and time making these complicated machinery to do the same thing that the body is doing. And the ultimate goal, these scientists were stating, their ultimate goal was to make a complete human body so that the person never has to die, but he can always change his body just before it breaks.
Prabhupāda: But the maker of that machine will die.
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He cannot save himself. He can make a machine which will not die, but he will die. Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Eh? (break) ...In every life, there is āvaraṇātmikā-śakti. He'll think that "I am very well situated." Even in the hog's life. That is māyā. Similarly, even if you are thinking, "Now we have got human body. We are well situated than the hog," that is also mistake. That is also mistake. "I am European, American, I have got so comfortable." Everything is wrong. Because you have to transmigrate. You do not know what is the next life. So what is the meaning of this well-situated. That is the mistake. That is māyā. You are not sure that you'll continue this life. You'll have to die. You have to accept. So this is māyā. Somebody well-situated, he's thinking, "Oh, I haven't got to do anything with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I am well situated. I am European and American."
Prabhupāda: ...right civilization begins when the society is organized. Otherwise, it's cats' and dogs' civilization. That is not civilization. Unless... Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). The society becomes perfect when the members of the society can understand that this human body is meant for satisfying Viṣṇu. That is the beginning of organized society. So long they do not know that, that is animal society. Because the animals, they do not know that.
Dr. Patel: Shall we go back?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The animals, they do not know. (break) They do not know it, that "We have to satisfy the Supreme Viṣṇu." So unless the society comes to this consciousness that "We have to satisfy the Supreme," that is not human society. Now, how they will understand? Therefore four divisions.
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is always there. It is always there. That is material world. Material world means that, sex life. That's all. And if you increase it, then you increase your material life more and more. Therefore the process is tapasā brahmacaryena (SB 6.1.13). The brahmācārya is so much stressed. Tapasā brahmacaryena. Samena damena vā, tyāgena śaucena yamena niyamena vā. This is the process of human life. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kāṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This human body is not meant for working hard like pigs for sense gratification. So they have been taught to become pigs. No discrimination of sex. The pig has no discrimination. So they have been taught. Not... When it is in śāstra, that means it is from the very beginning. A class of men are like pigs and hogs there are, always. So therefore Rsabhādeva is forbidding his sons that "This human form of life is not to waste like the pigs and hogs." Then what? Tapasā. Tapo divyaṁ putrakāḥ...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our movement is that, that is first-class religious system which teaches how to love God. This is the sum and substance of our movement. There is a Sanskrit statement in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,
- sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yayātmā suprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
If you want to be happy, then you must take to the superior type of religious system which teaches the followers how to love God without any motive, and which is never checked by any material condition. God's name is given here as Adhokṣaja. Adhokṣaja means beyond experimental knowledge. God has got many name according to different situation, and one of the name, for the materialistic person, adhokṣaja. Akṣaja means experimental knowledge. Akṣa means eyes or senses. Beyond sense perception. So we cannot speculate about God, but we can understand about God from authorities. This is the conception of Bhāgavata-dharma. So the human life is especially meant for understanding God. That is the version of the Vedānta-sūtra, Vedānta philosophy. The Vedānta philosophy teaches, athāto brahma jijñāsā, "Now this human form of body, which is above the lower grades of forms..." There are 8,400,000 forms of body. The soul is transmigrating, evolution. But when we get this human form of body, our main business is to inquire about God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now, if somebody inquires what is God, the immediate reply is, God is the source, original source of everything. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So the human form of life is meant for understanding God, and according to our philosophy, if human body is not utilized for understanding God, then it is misused.
Prabhupāda: That you may think, but you do not know the nature's law. You have to accept. Just like this apartment, either you accept or somebody accept. Similarly, these bodies are apartment. You have to accept or your brother has to accept. Somebody must accept. They are also living entities. Wherefrom they are coming? As I am a living entity, they are also living entity. So changing body, I may change to that body, he may change to this body. Where is the unreasonableness? We are all living entities. These are different types of bodies. So we have to accept some body. Similarly, he has to accept some body. So he may accept my body, I may accept his body. This apartment change. I may go to this apartment, he may go to another apartment. But there are so many apartments, gṛha. Therefore it is called gṛhamedhī. If you say, "No, no, I am not going to accept that apartment." "No, no, it is not your judgement." Daiva-netreṇa. "What money you have got, sir, to occupy?" "I have no money." "All right, then go this apartment." You must accept. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). By your work it will be ascertained what kind of apartment you will get. It is not upon your decision. There are so many, many rascals. They think that after getting human body, he is never degraded.
Prabhupāda: Piling of bricks and stones? Heaps of stones and bricks? That is emblem of civilization? They have seen. In Rome they have seen. They also piled like that. Now they have gone. Where they have gone? Why they left? Why they were obliged to leave? That nobody is questioning. And if he has got a different body, if he is living in that house as cats and dogs and rats and ants, then what benefit he has derived? There is possibility. If you have got an attraction for the body, for your house, but you are not going to get a human body, then you'll have to take your birth in that place, as tree, as plant, as live as rat or cat or ant. You have to live. Nature will give you advantage. But you must get the body according to your karma. That you cannot violate. Where is this science discussed? As soon as we shall speak gentleman like them, they will say, "I have got meeting."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That "pay for it" means, he has got this chance of human body. Now he will have to accept lower grade animal body. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that at least on these points we are in agreement.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the real inconvenience is that I am eternal. I am now put into such condition that I have to change my body, and there is risk of getting degraded body. Therefore my problem is that—I am put into this condition, repetition of change of body—to get out of it—that is spiritual life—and transfer myself there. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyaḥ (BG 8.20). Just like we are in this material nature. If we transfer to that spiritual nature, then there is no more this problem, getting this body, again annihilate, again get another body, again annihilate. This problem is solved. And that is spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Material body means again death. As soon as you accept this material body, either human body or cat's body or dog's body or tree's body, it has end. Therefore it is said, tyaktvā deham, if one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then, giving up this body, no more accepting any material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). "He comes to Me." And that is the solution of all anxieties. So if you want to become anxietyless, therefore we would advise you to become God conscious, always think of God, Kṛṣṇa. Then your life will be successful. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta (SB 7.5.5). This is the process, that so long we'll be on the platform of material existence, we cannot avoid anxiety. That is not possible. Therefore it is the duty of everyone to give up this material world and take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That will give us relief from all anxieties.
Prabhupāda: A girl is pregnant, suppose, then, during her pregnancy period, ten months, there is no sex, and unless the child becomes six months old, there is no sex. The thing is that in the modern world, sex life has become the only pleasure. They do not know anything else. Therefore everything is discredited. And another thing is they are afraid of keeping more than one wife for population. But if they produce sufficient food, where is the question of overpopulation? Another thing they have made, especially in the western world, they don't want to produce food because they know, "We shall kill one animal and eat. Why take so much trouble? Let me increase industry, and I shall push my button. Money will come. And the slaughterhouse there. We shall eat." So they are getting money. By money, they are getting women to the choice. They are getting food, meat, and they're enjoying drinking. So money has become the whole thing. "Bring money some way or other and enjoy." This is the purport of civilization. They do not care what is God, that human body is meant for God realization.
Prabhupāda: No, material world is part of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is not part of material world. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that they had a human body, he had a material body.
Prabhupāda: That human body appears like that, but he had no this material flesh and blood. A material body, how there can be resurrection?
Yogeśvara: If it was material body, how is it possible for him to be resurrected? (French)
Prabhupāda: Is that all right?
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So if you do not get this material body—you remain in your spiritual body—then there is no more pains and pleasure. So that means the origin of pains and pleasure is to our attachment to this material body. If we can somehow or other get out of this material body, then there is no more pains and pleasure or it is simply pleasure. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, ānandamāyaḥ abhyāsāt. "By nature the spirit soul is joyful." In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati: (BG 18.54) "As soon as you become spiritually self-realized, then there is no more pains and pleasure." So pleasure means absence of pain. So in your spiritual identity there is no pain, therefore it is simply pleasure. Therefore our endeavor should be how to get our again original spiritual body. Spiritual body is there already. It is covered by the material body, but some way or other, if we stop the covering of the material body, then we are simply in pleasure. Therefore our only attempt in this human body should be how to revive our spiritual body. And that process is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That... Open that verse, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9).
Prabhupāda: ...of knowledge, not starvation of food.
Vīrabāhu: The modern scientists, they even admit that the body, a human body, is the most perfect machine. They admit this in college. But the same teacher, I heard him saying this, though he says this, he says, "There is no God. This is an invention of the necessity of man."
Prabhupāda: Then why do you die? Why do you die?
Hṛdayānanda: If it's a perfect machine?
Vīrabāhu: No, he says is the most perfect. No one can make something better.
Prabhupāda: Where is perfection? Why do you die? You don't like to die. Where is perfection? Nobody wants to die, but it is sure that he will die. Where is perfection?
Prabhupāda: I will accept another body, and it will grow. Therefore the matter grows on the basis of life, not that from matter, life comes. This is all rascaldom. So now, by the grace of... We have got scientists. Let them protest. Save the people from this ignorance. Mūḍhā. That is our mission. Give them chance. They have got human body. Let them become Kṛṣṇa conscious and give up all this nonsense thing. Hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ svarūpena avasthitiḥ. Mukti, this is mukti. They are mad after something wrong. So they should be saved, and they should give up this so-called materialism and come to service to the Kṛṣṇa, his eternal job. Then that is mukti. He is liberated.
Rūpānuga: So this book actually, is directed to scientifically-minded people because in this age people are getting educated. They are getting scientific-minded.
Prabhupāda: A child may also die tomorrow. There is no guarantee. Therefore spiritual education should begin as soon as a child can understand something. Because there is no guarantee that he will remain for many years. There is no guarantee. So the business of human life is to revive our lost relationship with God. So if we miss, then I may get another body, not even human body. Then I miss the opportunity. There are 8,400,000 types of forms. Just like the trees, they are all... (break) ...human form of life. And that may take millions of years. So if we miss this opportunity of human life, to revive our relationship with God, and next life I become something else, then how much great loss it is, just try to understand. This human form of body is obtained after many, many millions of years' struggle. So this is also temporary, as the cats' and dogs' body, they are also temporary. But although it is temporary, it is arthadam. You can achieve the real purpose of life. That is the privilege of this human form of... Therefore as soon as possible, the spiritual education should begin, immediately.
Prabhupāda: That motor car is not your life. That is being misguided. Everyone is thinking that this body, motor car, is everything. But within, the driver, he's starving. So how long he'll carry on this motor car. So first of all take care of the driver who will protect this motor car nicely. And if the driver is a nonsense, he's starving, then how can I expect the car will go very nicely. It will create disaster. Disaster means... Suppose you have got very nice car, Cadillac or, many good cars there are, Rolls-Royce, and he smashes. Then he'll get ordinary car. This human body is smashed... (break) ...hāntara-prāptiḥ, you enter into the dog's body, finished. That is not in your control, that is God's control, nature's control. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), it is not under your control or so-called science. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27), kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22), these things are there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the chance, human body. If you want to know, you can know. Here is the chance.
Young man: Is there a way of knowing that the body you inhabited before was of a inferior quality than the one you're inhabiting now, or...
Prabhupāda: Inferior quality, just like cats and dog. That is inferior quality.
Young man: Yeah, is there a way of knowing whether you're on the way up or you're falling?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You... Just like you infect some disease. Then it is sure that you are going to grow that disease. And if you don't infect, then you don't grow that disease. Do you know this, infection? Disease infection?
Prabhupāda: Ātmā is not coming into being, it is already there. But at the present moment it is accepting different types of bodies. Just like your this dress is available in the market. And you are also there, so you purchase the dress and put on. Similarly, the different types of bodies are already there. You according to your desire accept one type of body, and you appear in that body. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and you have to accept one of them. According to desire. According to your work. You are working. Everyone is working. Now, according to the work and association, he is creating his body. Just like if you infect some type of disease, then you'll have to accept that disease. So we are working ways—we are individuals—and according to that work we are creating our next body. If you are working in a godly way, then you'll get your body next as god, and if you are working in a dogly way, then you'll get your body as dog. So, by nature's way, evolution, we come through 800 millions of forms of life, then nature gives us a chance to accept this human form of body. In this body, our consciousness being advanced, if we try we can understand what is the problem of life, why we have accepted birth, death, old age and disease, how to get out of these, how to revive our original nature of body and again become eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. This is the chance of the human body. Therefore you are a philosopher because you are in the human body, but a dog cannot be a philosopher.
Prabhupāda: Drugs? That is another side of madness. Just like, human being, after the evolution of 8 million forms of bodies, he comes to human body to understand philosophy, these Vedas. So instead of utilizing life for that purpose, he wants to become again like the cats and dogs, and therefore he takes drugs. He is already cat and dog. He's no better than cats and dogs, because he has no interest in this knowledge. He was meant for this knowledge but he remains like cats and dogs, therefore he is not satisfied, therefore he takes drugs to forget himself. This is the philosophy of drugs. He was meant for becoming satisfied by taking this knowledge. He does not get the chance. Nobody leads him to this knowledge. He remains like cats and dogs, but as a human being if he lives like cats and dogs, he'll never be happy. Because there is no happiness, therefore he takes drugs, to forget. This is the drug philosophy. Drug philosophy means to forget one's present suffering. He must suffer, because his consciousness is developed. He must take this Vedic knowledge, but he does not take. Therefore he is dissatisfied, and to counteract the dissatisfaction he takes drugs. This is drug philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And who will become fish? That they do not know, how the transmigration of the soul is going on. They cannot explain wherefrom the fish are coming, wherefrom the trees are coming. Everything in darkness. And this civilization, this dark civilization, is going on, in the name of civilization. They cannot explain what is death, what is next life. Sometimes they say, "It is nature," but how nature is working they do not know. All darkness, mūḍhā na abhijānāti, mām ebhyaḥ parama. The birds and beasts are also catching fish, and they are also catching. What is the difference? What is the difference? They have got this nice human body, and they are acting like birds and beasts. And they are kept in darkness. There is no enlightenment. This is the modern civilization. (pause) The smell. What is the smell?
Prabhupāda: He has got the human body. He also... These birds are catching fish. He does not know that he has got other business.
Amogha: At the school, the students say, "Why not eat fish? Jesus was passing out fish, in the Bible. And we all catch fish. We like to catch fish." And then we tell them about meat. So, they think that we are loosing a great pleasure, that we cannot eat meat.
Prabhupāda: You tell them, that you will be very merry—that's all right. But do you want to stop these merry affairs all of a sudden? Ask them, what will they reply?
Prabhupāda: Then he will suffer. He will constantly change his body one after another, sometimes good body, sometimes bad body, and he will suffer. So as soon as you accept a material body, you will suffer. It may be good body or bad body. It doesn't matter. Suffering is there. When a dog is taking birth, he has to take the suffering within the womb of his mother, and when a human man, human body is coming out, he has also to take the... It is not joke to remain ten months within the packed-up abdomen of the mother. Is it very pleasant, do you think? If you are kept in that way now, you will die within three seconds. In that condition you have to live ten months. So how much suffering it was!
Prabhupāda: Yes, that depends. By nature's course, you automatically come to human body. Now, in the human body it is a junction, whether you want to make further progress and if you want to go back again to the cycle of the birth and death and the evolutionary process. That is to be decided by you. If you want to go to God, you can go. And if you want to become again a monkey, you can do that. That will depend on your work. Yes.
Journalist: You founded the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. How long ago was that?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is since five thousand years ago or before that. You may say forty millions of years ago as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. But taking it by modern history, in your country, in the Western countries, I have started it since 1966 from New York.
Prabhupāda: We have got many cars for preaching work. So everything is good, provided it is used for progressive goodness. (coughs) That our mistake is that when... Now listen, there is the mistake in Darwin's theory also. He has no information that the evolution is taking place, of the body, by the desire of the soul. That he does not know. Just like sometimes people were happy and living in a small cottage. Now they are making big, big skyscraper building. So what is the difference? The cottage and this... The cottage is not becoming the skyscraper building but the man who was living in the cottage, by his desire the skyscraper building is coming. Similarly the evolution means the soul within the body desires a certain type of body and he gets it. Not that the monkey body has developed into human body.
Prabhupāda: But the soul within the monkey's body desired a human body, and he has got it. This is the process of evolution. The Darwin's theory, this knowledge is lacking. If he is thinking that the cottage has become big skyscraper building, that is not the fact. The owner of the cottage desired to have a skyscraper building, therefore he, from the cottage he transferred to the skyscraper building. It is due to the owners.
Journalist: In that case, if we go on developing, we stay in the skyscraper, or the skyscraper gets bigger.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The skyscraper is not impediment, it is not impediment. If you remain in the skyscraper and develop your spiritual consciousness, you can do that. But the unfortunate thing is that we are too much absorbed in constructing the skyscraper building, forgetting our real business. That is the defect.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) ...human being who knows things that I explained this thing that by nature's process I have come to this human body. Now what is next progress? That is human being. And even still I remain cats and dog but they have no inquiry, then what is the use of getting this human body?
Australian devotee 4: Why, then, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is a person given a human body then, if they...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that means better conscience. He can consider so many things. "Why I am dying? I do not want to die. Why there are so many miserable condition?" We are covering because there is miserable condition of this winter. I don't want to suffer from cold. Therefore I am covered. So this is struggle for existence. The human being can understand that why there is struggle? Why not I am happy naturally? This question must be there. Otherwise he is cat and dog. The dogs do not inquire all these things. Then if you have no such power to inquire and understand, then you are no better than dog. And if you are happy to remain cats and dogs, that is your business. But a real human being, he will never be happy. That is human being. Everyone is trying to improve his material condition. Therefore the motor car is going here and there, here and there. Why they are trying? Let them remain satisfied in any condition. The modern economic law is that create new necessities of life.
Nitāi: "Here the word asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt is significant. Asat means 'impermanent,' 'temporary,' and indriya means 'senses.' Thus asad-indriya-tarṣaṇāt means 'from being agitated by the temporarily manifest senses of the material body.' We are evolving through different statuses of material bodily existence sometimes in a human body, sometimes in an animal body—and therefore the engagements of our material senses are also changing. Anything which changes is called temporary, or asat. We should know that beyond these temporary senses are our permanent senses, which are now covered by the material body. The permanent senses, being contaminated by matter, are not acting properly. Devotional service, therefore, involves freeing the senses from this contamination. When the contamination is completely removed and the senses act in the purity of unalloyed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we have reached the sad-indriya, or eternal sense activities. The eternal sensual activities are called devotional service, whereas temporary sensual activities are called sense gratification. Unless one becomes tired of material sense gratification, there is no opportunity to hear transcendental messages from a person like Kapila. Devahūti expressed that she was tired. Now that her husband had left home, she wanted to get relief by hearing the instructions of Lord Kapila."
Prabhupāda: So this full book is the answer and question between mother and son. So, although she is mother, she has given birth to the child, but she has become now dependent on this child for good instruction. This is ideal society.
Satsvarūpa: The human body means you have responsibility.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they say, "Whatever you do, it is all right." In the human body you cannot do like that. If in the ordinary court it is so strict, so what will be in the court of the God?
Sudāmā: Just like they have laws, so similarly, Kṛṣṇa has.
Prabhupāda: Well, laws come... Wherefrom the laws come? It comes from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādyasya yataḥ. Everything, whatever you see, it has come from God. Otherwise where you get the idea? That is the definition in the Vedānta. Whatever you have experienced, that is coming from God, original idea from God. Janmādyasya yataḥ. In the Bhagavad-gītā the same thing is said, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Whatever you see, you perceive, you experience, the original is from Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So we shall go? (break) ...them directly that "You are animal." And let him go to the court and we shall prove that he is animal. (break) ...them he is in bodily concept of life, charge him that "You are animal. If you think it is defamation, let us go to the court." (break) ...these isms, nationalism, Communism, socialism, this ism, these are all animalism, nothing but animalism. (break) ...big fish within the water, they are also eating the small fish, and these persons are engaged, the same business.
Svaupa Dāmodara: The cells are dead. The cells that compose the body, they are dead. There are may be new living entities coming from different parts, but the cell that composed the human body is dead. They cannot reproduce anymore.
Prabhupāda: So what is your proposal? That cell is life?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So can you develop life from the cells? As you said that you take the skin and you keep, so take the cells and develop into life.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's called culturing of the cells. They can culture it.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Whether you have done it.
Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, we're in this material world, in this human body, we're having to work with this intelligence, with mind, material things. So there is a group of philosophers that say that actually because we're a product, our mind, the way we're thinking now is a product of our upbringing and our past, that actually we have no free will, but we're forced to think and act in a certain way.
Prabhupāda: Why you are forced?
Devotee (4): Because of conditioning.
Prabhupāda: Then that you have to admit that you are conditioned by some authority. When you are put into jail, you cannot act independently. You have to act according to the jail superintendent's order.
Dr. Patel: Even though we see Him as an ordinary physical body or a human body, but that is divya body, and it is not contaminated by any guṇas.
Prabhupāda: And because it is not contaminated, therefore it is not ordinary body. Therefore anyone who thinks of Kṛṣṇa as possessing ordinary body, he is described as mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ (BG 9.11). In the ordinary human, this material body, nobody can be controller of the laws of nature. That is not possible. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Unless one has got spiritual body, it is not possible to be unaffected by this material world. Kṛṣṇa never became old although He lived for a 125 years. He never became old. Now, how you can say...?
Prabhupāda: Everything is stated. Read Bhagavad-gītā very thoroughly and try to understand. Then everything will be clear, how to live, how to organize society. We have to live. The same thing: we are also working, we are also eating, we are sleeping, we are also marrying—but according to Kṛṣṇa's direction. Then it is Kṛṣṇa conscious life and perfect life. And as soon as you do anything whimsically, at your will, then you are responsible. Kṛṣṇa or His representative. Kṛṣṇa is giving instruction, and His representative is explaining. In both ways Kṛṣṇa is helping. So even so much facility being offered to you, if you don't take advantage, then you are committing suicide. Ātmahā. Ātmahā. Just like the sea is now calm and quiet. If you want to go somewhere, take advantage of it. And if you start your boat while it is cyclone, then you'll be drowned. So Kṛṣṇa has left the book of instruction, Bhagavad-gītā. It is favorable condition. And the spiritual master is the captain, and you take advantage. Your, this human body is a good boat. So good boat, favorable condition, good captain—take advantage of crossing this ocean. Otherwise you are committing suicide. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very difficult to cross over this ocean of nescience, but these are the favorable conditions. One should take advantage of these favorable conditions and cross over this ocean of nescience.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Second chance means you have to change your body. Now, according to your desire you get another body. That body is not guaranteed that you shall get a human body. It may be...
Faill: If you've been bad enough, you might finish...
Prabhupāda: No, that... This I have already told you. There are 8,400,000 different forms of life. So you can enter any one of them according to your mental condition. We are under the control of the material nature. The material nature is being conducted in three modes: goodness, passion and ignorance. So just like three colors: yellow, red, and blue. Now you mix-three into three equal to nine, nine into nine equal to eighty-one. So these modes of material nature is being mixed up. Therefore there are so many varieties of life. So if we transcend this coloring platform of material nature, we come to the pure consciousness. Then we stop this repetition of birth and death in different forms of life. And if we do not that, then there is chance of going down or going up. There are different planets.
Dr. Patel: When I was a small boy I was very much wondering how this filth that is cast away from human body can nourish the dog's body. But that is the bountifulness of God, sir.
Yaśomatīnandana: Just like that...
Dr. Patel: Now don't talk. (laughter) I was a professor in the college, so I am very sorry. This particular habit is lurking me as yet.
Yaśomatīnandana: māyā is killing the scientists.
Dr. Patel: (Gujarati) But that is what it is, sir. Really, it set me thinking when I was a small baby boy, how this could maintain the body of a dog if there was no something in it. It is a very important thing to understand. Think about it.
Prabhupāda: ...good substance, very good substance. Stool is full of hypophosphates.
Harikeśa: Human body. So I've got a watery body...
Prabhupāda: Ninety percent water?
Harikeśa: That's what they say.
Prabhupāda: They say. They are rascals. (laughter) So much bones and flesh and so many things, others. And ninety percent water.
Harikeśa: Well, they take a cell and they say in the cell...
Prabhupāda: "They take," they... Don't quote them, they are all rascals. You come to your own reason. They say, then you accept them as authority. Then why don't you accept authority of Bhagavad-gītā, rascal? You are quoting some rascals and fools, and I am quoting from Bhagavad-gītā. Then whose quotation is favorable? "They say." And when we say, "Kṛṣṇa says," that is nothing! Just see, how foolish. "They say." These rascals, meat eaters, huh? Bachelor daddies, (laughter) they say something, that is authority.
Lokanātha: So then what is basic difference between human body, I mean man's body and woman's body, which attracts each other?
Prabhupāda: Because if you want to be attracted, God has made in such a way that both of them are attractive to one another. That's all. You want to be attracted; therefore woman is made attractive. And the woman wants to be attracted; man is attractive. This is nature's arrangement so that you may be bound up by this attraction. Tayor miṭha hṛdaya-granthiḥ mām. You are already bound up, and by this attraction you will be more tightly bound up. Puṁsāṁ striyā mithuni-bhāvam etad. The whole material attraction means a man's attraction for woman and a woman's attraction for man. But when they are seeking, "Where is woman, where is woman, where is woman," and the woman is seeking, they come here to make this business. Huh? And when they are actually attracted or united, then this bondage, material bondage, will become more tight. Therefore the Vedic civilization is how to slacken it, and ultimately, by force, separation, sannyāsa.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Hṛdayānanda: And also among human beings, different human bodies are made differently.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. According to... Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). So according to the guṇa he's infecting, the body is made. If you infect some disease, smallpox, then you must get the disease. There is no excuse.
Hṛdayānanda: So a devotee... It is said in Bhagavad-gītā that a devotee is above the modes of nature.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Hṛdayānanda: It is said in Bhagavad-gītā, sa guṇān samatītyaitān (BG 14.26). So when a devotee becomes very advanced, does that means that he should not feel a particular, an inclination to do a particular work but simply want to serve Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: No, but your waking.... You are going to wake up like a dog. That is the privilege. You sleep perpetually..., not perpetually, for seven months, and then you wake up as a dog. The body is changed. And go on barking. That you do not know. That is ignorance.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That's amazing. You go to sleep in a human body, and you wake up in a dog body.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. What is this conglomeration?
Devotee (1): (break) ...wakes up the next morning. I am not afraid to go to sleep because I know that I will wake up. So if I'm going to die and I know...
Prabhupāda: Die means you sleep as a man and wake up as a dog. That is dying.
Nalinīkaṇṭha:
- śrī-prahrāda uvāca
- kaumāra ācaret prajño
- dharmān bhāgavatān iha
- durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma
- tad apy adhruvam arthadam
- (SB 7.6.1)
"Prahlāda Mahārāja said: One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of life—in other words, from the tender age of childhood—to practice the activities of devotional service, giving up all other engagements. The human body is most rarely achieved, and although temporary like other bodies, it is meaningful because in human life one can perform devotional service. Even a slight amount of sincere devotional service can give one complete perfection."
Prabhupāda: The guests, you may read aloud to them. (long pause; Śrīla Prabhupāda exchanges a few Hindi sentences with a woman)
Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we were painting one painting for the last volume of Seventh Canto which shows that Kṛṣṇa is in the heart of all living entities. Now, the question came up whether Kṛṣṇa.... Since Kṛṣṇa is inside every atom, are there living entities in every atom? So I said that you had already answered that, that Kṛṣṇa is never alone, so there must be some living entity within the atom. So then the question was: Is this atom one of the bodies, just like human body, and then gradually that living entity gets a higher body, higher body, or does he always remain inside the atom?
Prabhupāda: Body does not develop. He changes body. Why don't you understand this?
George Gullen: Yes, this is true. My father was a Christian minister all of his life, and he had very deep beliefs about the spiritual matters. He felt very strongly, as you do, that the body was temporary and that his spirit would find its way into some other form of life, and he believed very strongly in life after human death, very much so. He believed in a matter he called cosmic consciousness, in which the spirit had far greater powers than physical powers. He had similar kinds, I believe, of beliefs that you do. I have some beliefs myself that the human body being quite temporary, that years are not long for it, that there must be more to life than just the physical side.
Prabhupāda: Everyone's body is temporary, either human body or cat's body, dog's body. But the human body is important because in the human body we have developed consciousness by which we can understand what is God. The cats and dogs, they cannot, they haven't got that developed consciousness. Therefore if we do not use this developed consciousness for understanding God and our relationship with Him, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Cats and dogs cannot be educated about God, but a human being can be educated. That is the distinction between animals and man. But modern education is keeping them in ignorance about God, so they are no better than cats and dogs. And how can you bring peace among cats and dogs? Can you bring in peace calling all the dogs of your city and sit down peacefully? No, that is not possible. So if we keep our citizens like cats and dogs, then how we can expect peace?
Prabhupāda: This outward is a form. What is the difficulty? Describe.
Pradyumna: Just as this human body has a human form, we say that because this body has a form, the soul also must have form.
Devotee (1): Talking about the transmigration then.
Pradyumna: Just as the glove has a certain form because the hand is shaped like that, the material body of a human has that form because the spirit is in that form? And the tree has that form because the spirit is in that form?
Prabhupāda: Here difficulty is that the form is fixed up. That is not.... Just like Kṛṣṇa appears in so many forms, everything is spiritual. So what do you think?
Prabhupāda: Now in India they have also learned. And our philosophy is "Don't try to get money." Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta. "You should simply engage your life for advancing your Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So who will hear us? We say, "There is no need of working so hard for money." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This kind of working hard is done by the hogs and dogs, so why a human being should work so hard simply to get the necessities of life? (break) ...and dogs, they are getting necessities of life in that way. (break) This association, this meeting, this talking, is meant for the human body; it is not for the cats and dogs. This is human civilization. Naimiṣāraṇya meeting going on, all the big, big learned brāhmaṇas, sages, they are talking how to do welfare activities to the human society. What is this civilization? Simply money, money, money, money, money. And as soon as you get money, then you begin all nonsense, illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, gambling. What you will do with the money? You do not know how to spend it. Hm. Dhana-māna-madānvitāḥ.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Next point says, in the column of matter, it says it has temporary complex forms in association with life. On the other hand, life is immutable. From Bhagavad-gītā, it has neither beginning nor end. Now this is what actually we find when a living entity is in association with matter, now matter tends to the form, into definite specific forms. Like human body has a specific form, like that, other living entities have forms. But this is only due to in association with life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. As he desired, so he got a form. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). The form is offered by the Supreme Absolute Truth, as he desires. Just like the cloth has no form, but as the customer desires, the tailor gives a form suitable to his desire. Similarly, material world means we have got varieties. In the spiritual world also we have got varieties. Because we are originally of varieties of form, we are getting these varieties of body, being influenced by the modes of material nature. So I'm desiring that if I get such body, I can eat even stool. So God gives you, "All right, you take this body. Become a pig and eat stool." This is going on. Why? Your desiring.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of evolution. It is already there. This is a wrong theory. The monkey is there, the man is there. The soul is going from monkey to man. It is not the evolution. Just like you have got apartment, ten rupees, five rupees, twenty rupees, thirty rupees, like that. Now, as you pay, "Come on, here." There is no question of evolution. It is already there. Jantur dehopapattaye. These dehas, these bodies, are already there. So immediately it develops a particular type of desire, "Yes, come here, sit down." First class, second class, third class, fourth class is already there. As you pay, "Yes, come here." It is not evolving; it is already there. He is transferred from one apartment to another. This has to be convinced. We don't find that monkey's body became a human body. That is not in the experience, anyone. The monkey is there, the human being is there. But the soul is going from monkey's body to human's body, or monkey's body to another body. That is by superior administration.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian machine you are thinking "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian interests." You Americans are thinking "This is American machine; it should be used for America's benefit." These are upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Neither I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black, I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body," we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it not?
Mr. Loomis: Is it better to have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body?
Prabhupāda: Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged not simply for sense gratification. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir (SB 1.2.10). Find out this verse. Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā. This is the business, tattva-jijñāsā. Tattva-jijñāsā means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only business.
Prabhupāda: ...cure the diseased condition of our existence, and then it will be cured. For that purpose, we have to execute austerity, penance, tapasā brahmacaryeṇa śamena damena ca (SB 6.1.13). These practices are there. But there is one practice that is called bhakti. Kevalayā bhaktyā vāsudeva-parayanaḥ. One.... Vāsudeva-parayanaḥ, vāsudeva sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. When one understands that Vāsudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is everything, then he becomes the greatest mahātmā. That platform is achieved after many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudeva sarvam iti (BG 7.19). So Vāsudeva is canvassing, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: (BG 18.66) "You just surrender to Me, I shall give you all protection." And one has to come to this position, vāsudeva sarvam iti. So one who is intelligent, he will take it immediately that bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), "After many, many births, if I have come to this position, that 'Vasudeva is everything,' then why not accept Him immediately?" That is intelligent. Why shall I wait for many, many births? I have got now sense, I have got this human body. Let me do it immediately. That is sense. And if you want to wait for many, many births to come to this conclusion....
Mr. Deyani: How then can the God come in a human form, because human, when you talk of human body, it is a limited...
Prabhupāda: He does not come in human form. He is like human being, dvi-bhuja. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. He's... In the Bible it is said that man is made after God. The human being, two hands, two legs, this body they have got, that is the original form of God. But because He comes in that form, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11), they think that He is a man. His original form is (like) that. But because we are habituated to see two hands, two legs of human being, we take Him as human being. But that is His original form. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Find out. So if we accept Him as a human being like us, then we are mūḍhā, rascals. He says avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). They do not know what is behind this human form. God is omnipotent, almighty. He can take any form He likes. You cannot check Him. You cannot say "How Brahman can come in a human form?" Why He cannot come?
Rūpānuga: The whole idea is that the matter, where it's not touched by spirit, it's not very complicated. When there's life, then you have such a complication like a body. The human body is very complicated because life is there. Without life...
Prabhupāda: No, just like a machine, it can be complicated. But as soon as you put the plug, gada-gada-gada-gada comes. But the electricity is not complicated, the machine is complicated.
Rūpānuga: So it doesn't work unless there is some....
Prabhupāda: Without electricity it does not work. But the machine is complicated, not the electricity.
Prabhupāda: That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animal, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That you do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to different bodies. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization.
Prabhupāda: Every one of us, we are attached to the body, and on account of being attached to the body the material activities are going on. These motorcars are running, karmīs are going here and there, what is the purpose? To maintain the road? Divasa śarīra-sāje. Miche nida-baśe gelo re rāti divasa śarīra-sāje. The body is given rest at night to revive, and daytime the activities for the matter of maintaining the body. But despite my all endeavor to maintain this body, it will not stay. It will give up my company and I'll have to accept another. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So Bali Mahārāja says "What is the use of such endeavor?" Therefore big, big saintly persons, they do not care for the body. Lie down anywhere. But they are very serious about spiritual advancement. And people in general, they are interested in maintaining the body. It is not that we should be neglectful to the body. That example is also there. Just like we require fruits and flowers. So if we neglect the tree, there will be no fruits and flower. If we cut the tree, it will dry up and there will be no fruits and flowers. The fruits and flowers, this human body, the fruits and flowers mean self-realization. Bali Mahārāja analyzes the family.
Prabhupāda: That is nature's gift. You cannot check it. You have no hand on the administration of the nature. That is not possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). If you have infected some disease, you must suffer from that. This is nature's law. You cannot say, "Although I have infected the smallpox disease, I'll not suffer." No, you have to suffer. Or you have to die of that disease. You cannot check it. So they do not know how nature is going. Declaring independence. That is foolishness. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). And people are kept in ignorance. There is no school, no college, no institution to give instructions about this science. This is the position of modern civilization. People are kept in ignorance. They got the chance of human body to understand the value of life, but they are not given education by the father, by the guardian, by the king, by the guru. Nobody is giving. Therefore śāstra says you should not become a guru, you should not become a father, you should not become a king unless you are able to save him from these laws of nature, repetition of birth and death.
Prabhupāda: "I have done so much 'don't do it' and 'do it.' Now I shall decide to do only what Kṛṣṇa says." Then his life is perfect. "I shall give up this business, 'don't do it' and 'do it.' But I'll simply do what Kṛṣṇa says." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "Yes, now I'll do it. What You say, I'll do it." Then his life is perfect. Otherwise he'll continue, "don't do it," "do it," "don't do it," "do it," that's all. And Kṛṣṇa will give him sanction—"do it" and "don't do it." Unless he comes to the original consciousness, Kṛṣṇa has to give him sanction, "Yes, do it." "Yes, do not do it." What can be done? But He says, "Give up this business, 'don't do it' and 'do it.' Simply do what I say. Then you'll be happy." Unless we agree to that point, we have to continue this material life, life after life, and suffer. Material body means suffering. Either you get human body or animal body or tree body or any body, suffers.
Prabhupāda: No more birth. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). And that training, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But the things are different. Both the parents and the children, all of them are going again in the cycle of birth and death and wasting the opportunity of getting a human body. This is modern civilization. They do not know this science. They are kept in darkness. This is so-called education. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ paramaṁ mama (BG 7.25). Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi... They do not know what is the destination of life. In darkness. There is no education practically. The modern education is how to eat nicely, how to sleep nicely, how to have sex nicely, how to defend nice. And that is the business of the animals. They know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend. So the extra intelligence of human being is making a royal edition of eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all.
Prabhupāda: She will get again birth in a human body. That is guaranteed so that he'll get again chance of chanting. That is also great gain. Ordinary person, he does not know what body he is going to get next body. But a person who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, chanting, he is guaranteed. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe (BG 6.41). He is guaranteed to take birth as human being in a very sacred family like brāhmaṇa and very rich family. So I have to go.
Manīṣā: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is going to live here. Everyone is going to die. Before death, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee (1): But they say that the human body developed right from these other bodies. In other words...
Prabhupāda: Evolution, from beast human body has come. That is the difference? Even there is difference, what is the idea?
Devotee (1): Well, they maintain that therefore man was not created by God, but simply by chemicals.
Prabhupāda: Rascals! Wherefrom the life came first? Wherefrom the life came from? When you find life in the water, wherefrom this life came?
Devotee (1): They say originally it came from chemicals that came together.
Prabhupāda: Rascal! Create from chemicals. Otherwise, beat them with shoes in their mouth. Why you talk nonsense? Create from chemicals, life. (break) What do they say?
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: The ignorance of law... Why? Why this human form of life? To know. Why you do not try to know it? Then you must be punished. Kṛṣṇa said, aśraddhadhānāḥ puruṣā. "If you are neglectful to know," dharmasyāsya parantapa, "this dharma, this science, this duty, what I am giving..." Aśraddadhānāḥ: "Eh! Bhagavad-gītā is..." Aśraddadhānāḥ. There is no śraddhā. Rascals. "Then the result will be mām aprāpya. He does not get Me." Then what is next? Nivartante: "He goes back." Where? Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani: (BG 9.3) "Again in the cycle of birth and death, birth and death." Again, after millions and millions of years, he'll come, again get the chance of human body, another chance to know. So this is the chance to know. You cannot expect the dog will know, the cat will know. You have got human being. You must know.
Prabhupāda: More work; more use your intelligence. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā: with life, with money, with intelligence, with words to serve Kṛṣṇa. Etāvaj janma-sa-phala tvam. This is the perfection of life. How? Etāvaj janma-sal..., janma-sa-phala tvam dehinām iha dehiṣu. Iha dehi... This, in human body... Those who have got body as dog, cats, they have got body. But iha dehiṣu, this human form for perfection... And how that perfection is achieved? Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya ācaraṇaṁ sadā: "With your life, with your money, with your intelligence, with your words, serve." That is perfect life.
Prabhupāda: One idea, another idea overlaps. Therefore it appears mysterious.
Rāmeśvara: Now, we're taught in the Bhāgavata that when a soul, when a living being quits his body, if he's in the human body, he's either taken by the Yamadūtas or the Viṣṇudūtas. So this description of their encountering this luminous being, it doesn't seem to fit in with the description of the Bhāgavata.
Prabhupāda: No. Luminous when they are taken by Viṣṇudūtas.
Rāmeśvara: And according to these people, this luminous being is inquiring from them how they have lived their life and is inquiring them about searching for knowledge and about developing love.
Prabhupāda: That is not... That is some imagination.
Prabhupāda: Obstinate. That scissors philosophy. There is no other way to understand it, but he'll not accept. That is his misfortune. Mūḍha. Bokā. And our problem is that these bokās, rascals, they are leading the society. And they are suffering. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). He's blind. We are also blind. And they're leading us. What will be our consequence? And we are losing the chance of human body to understand what is spirit, what is matter, what is God. We're losing everything. Very precarious condition. These rascals will not allow to understand real thing. That is the position. Otherwise what we have got to do with these rascals? But because they are taking some position, the whole populace is misguided. Means they are losing the chance of this human body. Suicided. (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes. I'll go to a man who has got already. Why shall I wait for you? Even if you are so sure that in future you'll be able to manufacture a machine, a human body, so already you are trying to check the population. It is being produced so profusely that what will be credit for you even if you manufacture, (laughter) rascals? Even if you manufacture in future, then what is the credit for you? Here millions of machines coming automatically. You are trying to check it. What is the credit? Bhavānanda, you...?
Prabhupāda: Suppose I am a very big business magnate. Next life, if I am going to become a dog—according to my karma, the nature's law will act—then what is benefit? One day before, Indira Gandhi was so important. Next day I'll maybe(?) nowhere, finished. Nobody knows where is Indira Gandhi. Just twenty-four hours she was most prominent woman. And after twenty-four hours nobody cares to look at her. This nature's law, how you can check? This is going on. Any moment, anything can be changed by the laws of nature. So India's importance is there. They know the law. Therefore so long the body, full of intelligence, human body, is there, they'll utilize it very... That is life, not to be carried away by the waves of nature. This is India's duty. So we want to make our institution at least a place for understanding this knowledge. It doesn't matter only a few persons may understand. That is sufficient. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ sahasraśaḥ: "If you keep one moon in the sky, that is sufficient for light.
Prabhupāda: One, two, three, four-four items. If you do one item at least, your life becomes successful. Even this child can do this. So to understand Bhagavad-gītā and follow the principle—not at all difficult. It is not reserved for any particular class of men or country or society, such a nice thing, and the human body is meant for understanding this knowledge, not to imitate the cats and dogs, jumping. This is being done by the cats and dogs. By evolutionary process, when we come to the human form of life, it is meant for understanding this science. So this opportunity there is, but we are blocking them not to take this knowledge and try to understand how to jump like cats and dogs. Greatest disservice to the human society. We have got such chance, so instead of helping you to get the chance, if I mislead you another way, is it not greatest disservice?
Prabhupāda: You recite that verse, nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti (SB 5.5.4). The instruction of King Ṛṣabhadeva to His sons. He said that "This body, human body..." Ayaṁ dehaḥ. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Deha. Everyone has got deha, body. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "After this body is finished, another body...," because ātmā, na jāyate na mriyate vā, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Ātmā is eternal. There is no birth, no death. Nitya, eternal; śāśvataḥ purāṇaḥ, the oldest; and na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Therefore this is the problem. The ātmā has no birth, no death, and neither he is dead after the annihilation of this body. But we are put into this condition.
Prabhupāda: You cannot count how many there are. Now these, some of the jīvas, not all of them... Majority of them, they live in the spiritual world, just like majority of the population of the state, they live outside the prison house. Prison house means some of the citizens who are criminals, they are put into the jail. Similarly, these living entities who are criminals, means who have rebelled against the order of God, they are sent here, in this material world. So they are suffering one term after another. Therefore here is the chance, ayaṁ dehaḥ nṛloke. In the form of human body you can get out of it. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). This is chance. And therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says, "My dear boys, you don't spoil your life." "I am working and enjoying. I am not spoiling." "No, this kind of working is done by the cats and hogs." Kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye: (SB 5.5.1)
Prabhupāda: So they can do these things.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They made another one where they go into the human body. They make the man very small, and then they send him on a trip through the human body, and he's fighting with germs. He gets attacked by germs, and the whole thing is very believable.
Prabhupāda: That Frankenstein?
Devotees: Frankenstein.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We gave a lecture in Gainesville, Florida. It was last year. So Amarendra made a nice poster about our lecture. I don't exactly remember, "Frankenstein or Einstein," describing a little about our talk, that life cannot come from matter. And he made a nice poster all over the campuses.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many people came?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, physical law. Just like worm will change into butterfly. You can see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science accepts that all the cells in human body changes completely in seven years.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Every seven years...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
| Page Title: | Human body (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 04 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=89, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 89 |