Prabhupāda: Brief summary... In this scene Caitanya Mahāprabhu became the student. Not exactly student. He inquired and Rāmānanda Rāya answered. So the importance of the scene is that Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not follow the formality, only the sannyāsīs should be the spiritual master. Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can be spiritual master. And to show this example practically, although He was sannyāsī and brāhmaṇa and Rāmānanda Rāya was a śūdra and a gṛhastha, householder, still He became like a student and inquired Rāmānanda Rāya. Rāmānanda Rāya felt some, I mean to say, hesitation that "How can I take the position of a teacher to a sannyāsī?" Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "No, no. Don't hesitate." He stated that either one may be a sannyāsī or he may be householder or one may be a brāhmaṇa or śūdra, it doesn't matter. Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can take the place of teacher. So that was His, I mean to say, gift. Because in Indian society it is simply taken that the brāhmaṇas and the sannyāsī can be spiritual master. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "No.
Grhastha (Conversations 1967 - 1975)
- 1 Conversations and Morning Walks
- 1.1 1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
- 1.2 1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
- 1.3 1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
- 1.4 1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
- 1.5 1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
- 1.6 1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
- 1.7 1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
- 1.8 1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
- 1.9 1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī. We have got four divisions. Those who are not married, they are called brahmacārīs. And those who are married, they are called gṛhasthas. And those who are retired, they are called vānaprasthas. And those who are renounced, they have no connection with anything worldly, they are called sannyāsa. Just like I am a sannyāsī. Sannyāsī mean I have got my family, I have got my wife, children, grandchildren in India, but I have no connection with them. I live alone.
Interviewer: Could I ask for a spelling on those?
Prabhupāda: Sannyā... Yes, brahmacārī: b-r-a-h-m-a-c-h-a-r-y, this is brahmacārī. Then gṛhastha: g-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. H-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. G-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a. Is that clear? Gṛhastha. Then vānaprastha: v-a-n-a-p-r-a-s-t-h-a, vānaprastha. Then sannyāsī: s-n-n-y-a-s-i, sannyāsī. Four divisions. These four divisions, and there are other four orders of social system. That is according to work, division according to work and quality. Just like the brāhmaṇas, b-r-a-h-m-a-i-n-s, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of the society. The kṣatriyas, k-s-h-a-t-r-y-a-s, kṣatriyas. Kṣatriyas means persons who are interested in politics, in the management of the country, political affairs. They are called kṣatriyas. Similarly, there is the vaiśyas, v-a-i-s-y-a-s. Vaiśyas means the mercantile, productive class. Those who are engaged in producing grains or trade, milk, and in industry. Of course, industry, artisans, they are called, artists, śūdras. Anyway, any person engaged in producing for the needs of the society, they are called vaiśyas.
Prabhupāda: Oh, the robe? Yes, I am a sannyāsī. The sannyāsī is the highest status of human social division. According to Vedic culture there are four divisions of human society. Brahmacārī, student life; then householder, gṛhastha; and then vānaprastha, retired life; and then sannyāsa life, means preaching transcendental knowledge to the society from door to door. So this dress... In Vedic culture, there are different dresses for different persons. So this saffron colored dress means that he is admitted without any introduction anywhere because he's understood to be a man of transcendental knowledge. And the householders receive them and take knowledge from them. That is the system of Vedic culture.
Interviewer: You also have a garland of flowers around your neck.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, as soon as you get that church, all the gṛhasthas and brahmacārīs, they will have to bring money. (Laughter) Is that not right?
Devotees: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: There was one clergyman lecturing in a Sheffield coal-mine that, "If you don't worship Jesus Christ, then you will go to hell." So first of all one man asked him... First of all, the clergyman inquired, "Do you know Jesus Christ?" So they were silent. So one of them inquired, "What is his number?" They thought that "Jesus Christ must be one of us," I mean to say, workers in the mine. So he must have got a number. "So what is his number?" Then the clergyman could understand that "To whom I am speaking." So then he explained, "Oh, Jesus Christ is not one of you. He is son of God. He has come to deliver you. If you don't worship Him, then you will go to hell." Then one of them said, "What is hell?" Then he described, "It is very dark, moist, and so on." So they were silent, because they work in the mine. (laughter) They were silent. "What is this hell? It is all right." Then the clergyman thought how to impress them. Then, after a few minutes, he said, "No. The hell is very dangerous." "How?" "There is no newspaper." "Oh, horrible."
Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa is not expected to work. That is dhana pratigraha. Pratigraha means accept offerings from others. Just like you offered so many things to me-money, clothing, food—so a sannyāsī, a brāhmaṇa, can accept. Not others. A gṛhastha cannot. There are restriction. A brahmacārī can, but he can accept on behalf of his spiritual master, not personally. These are the rules. So He was learned brāhmaṇa, and people used to present Him profusely, so He had no economics problem. Not that He renounced the world on account of poverty or some strain. He had no poverty, He was opulent. A brāhmaṇa does not require any great amount of wealth just to pull on his family. So that much amount was more than that He was receiving. He was teacher also. Paṭhana, pāṭhana, yajana, yājana. Brahmin's business is to teach and to become a very learned scholar and teach people how to worship Kṛṣṇa and become devotee himself, and accept charities from others and distribute it again.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right.
Hayagrīva: ...permanently, temporarily at least, for a while.
Prabhupāda: Then? Why temporarily? You can... As gṛhastha, you can build a small house and stay with your wife and children. You remain the president of this center. That will be nice. Yes. As there are many—in all centers there is one president—similarly, you remain president of this center.
Hayagrīva: Well, what happens when I leave? Then if he's not here and I leave, what happens then?
Prabhupāda: Then the maṭha command, secretary. Not with you, not that all, everyone, is leaving. You may leave sometimes. You want to go to your college, university, like that?
Prabhupāda: You are the most munificent incarnation. You are distributing Kṛṣṇa-prema." So we have taken that job. So people must know our importance. So outside propaganda is required. Don't you think it is required? Yes. So make literature. Make nice literature with picture, we get it printed, and then, in the meantime, you try to see things, how it can be managed. And let him move outside. As I am moving, he will move. And if some other boys who are determined to remain brahmacārī, not to marry...They can also take up. Brahmācari and sannyāsī is meant for moving. Yes. Gṛhastha cannot move because they have to earn. They have to maintain. But the brahmacārīs, they will go and beg contribution. A sannyāsī will make the situation favorable. Just like if now a little more, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is known, if some brahmacārī goes, that "We come from the..." Just like in San Francisco it happened. One of our brahmacārīs was arrested. So when he was taken into police custody, the officer said, "Oh, he is Swami's man. Let him go. Let him go out." Yes.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Haṁsadūta: "As in India, so in the West the sādhus will have to live on alms given by others and will have to forego many of..."
Prabhupāda: He does not know what is sādhu. He is not sādhu. He is gṛhastha. I have got many professors, engineers. So they are Kṛṣṇa-bhaktas. Are they not sādhus? The rascal does not know; that sādhu means beggar, he knows. Arjuna became a sādhu. He was a beggar? So he does not know what is sādhu. Sadhu's description is given, bhajate mām ananya...
Guest (1): This particular letter is written by a woman. It is unnecessarily pushing the...
Prabhupāda: Anyone, even if he is born in a brāhmaṇa family, the natural birth is considered as śūdra. But if there is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, then he's accepted as born brāhmaṇa, born brāhmaṇa. Still, one is born brāhmaṇa, he has to undergo the saṁskāras. So our, this... Now it is known as Hindu society although the "Hindu" word is given by the Mohammedans. It is called sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama society, who very strictly follow the four divisions, social divisions of varṇa—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—and four divisions of spiritual life—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So our, the Vedic system is called varṇāśrama. Varṇa means the social order. Āśrama means spiritual division. Therefore those who are following strictly the Vedic principle, that family life is called gṛhastha āśrama. Āśrama. Whenever you add this word āśrama there is spiritual significance. So all the division-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa—they are known as āśrama. Anyone can understand āśrama.
Prabhupāda: That is āśrama. So that āśrama, when a student follows the regulative principles, he is supposed to be situated in brahmacārī āśrama. A householder living with family, husband, wife, children, if they are following strictly the regulative principles—gṛhastha āśrama. Similarly, retired life, if he is following the regulative principles—the vānaprastha āśrama. Similarly, a renounced life, sannyāsa, if he is following the regulative principles, that is sannyāsa āśrama. Not that imitating somebody, I put on a saffron dress and I become a sannyāsī and by begging I live. This has killed the whole Hindu society or the sanātana-dharma society. Unqualified persons, they do not know the regulative principles but for solution of economic problem they dress themselves. This is Kali-yuga. They will pass on simply by the dress without any knowledge. So here also, although Ajamila was born of a brāhmaṇa father and he was strictly following the regulative principles of a brāhmaṇa—that will be stated—but he fell. He fell in love with a prostitute And therefore his characters were lost. Naṣṭa-sadācāraḥ. The reason is why? Dāsyāḥ saṁsarga-dūṣitaḥ. Because he associated with a prostitute, therefore his all regulative principles became lost. And as soon as you are lost of regulative principles then you take to all kinds of sinful activities. The regulative principles will keep you on the standard of life. If you give it up, then immediately you fall down, māyā.
Prabhupāda: So they had to... I had to give some guarantee of my honesty. So in that program the question was whether married or unmarried. Because unmarried man mostly become dishonest. So that inquiry was there, "Whether he is married?" Married man cannot be dishonest because he has got responsibility. If he is arrested he will be insulted in his family. His family members will be in difficulty. Therefore he does not commit dishonesty very easily unless it is absolutely... But that should not be done. But unmarried man, because he has got no responsibility, he commits all kinds of sinful activity. That's a fact. Therefore in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we do not allow such illicit sex life, no. You must get yourself married. And practically, we are seeing, that is very effective and that is going on nicely. All right. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: So you can join. You are family man, so it is not that we have no family men. We have got many family men. Now, they are all family. These girls, they have got a husband. And some of them, they are living separately. Just like one of my students, Professor Howard Wheeler. He is married man. He is living separately. Not separately. He is also conducting our, one establishment, New Vrindaban. So it is not that one has to live with us. He can live separately also, but his whole life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted.
Guest (4): I would like to live with you and tour with you.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Modern sociology is targeting the state or the people as the owner of a certain state, but our Vedic conception is īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ: (ISO 1) "Everything is owned by Īśa, the Supreme Controller." Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā: "What is given by Him, allotted to you, you enjoy that." Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam: "But we not encroach upon others' property." This is Īśopaniṣad, Vedas. And the same idea is explained in different Purāṇas. So the Vedas can give you... The other day I was reading in the, that paper, Moscow News, there was a congress, Communist congress, and the president declared that "We are ready to get others' experience to improve." So I think the Vedic concept of socialism or communism will much improve the idea of communism. Just like we are thinking in terms of human beings, the commu..., socialistic state, that "Nobody should starve. Everyone must have his food." And in the Vedic conception of gṛhastha, householder, it is recommended there that a householder shall see that even a lizard living in the room or even a snake living in that house should not starve. They should be also given food. And what to speak of others? The gṛhastha, before taking his lunch, he is recommended to stand on the road and declare that "If anybody is still hungry, please come. Food is ready." Then, if there is no response, then the proprietor of the household life, he takes his lunch. In this way there are so many good concept about this socialistic idea of communism. So I thought that these ideas might have been distributed to some of your thoughtful men. Therefore I was anxious to speak with you.
Prabhupāda: But it has come into use. Real, I mean to say, cultural institution is called varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatri, vaiśya, śūdra—these four varṇas—and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So according to Vedic concept of life, unless people take to this system or institution, institute of varṇa and āśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas, actually he does not become a civilized human being. This... One has to take this process, four divisions of varṇas and four..., four divisions of social order and four divisions of spiritual order. That is called varṇāśrama. So India's culture is based on these four, eight system, varṇa and āśrama.
Prof. Kotovsky: Varnāśrama.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am answering. As I told you that this propaganda is meant for creating some brāhmaṇas all over the world because the brāhmaṇa element is lacking, so one who seriously comes to us, he has to become a brāhmaṇa. So he has to adopt the occupation of a brāhmaṇa, and he has to give up the occupation of a kṣatriya or a śūdra. But if one wants to keep his profession, at the same time wants to understand also, that is allowed. Just like we have many professors. There is Howard Wheeler, professor of Ohio University. He's my disciple. So he is continuing his professorship. But whatever money he's getting, almost he's spending for our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. For gṛhasthas, those who are householders living outside, they are expected to contribute fifty per cent of the income for the society, twenty-five per cent for the family, and twenty-five per cent for his personal emergency. After all, in this world, if we live... So far we are concerned, we are sannyāsī, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg.
Prabhupāda: So far we are concerned, we are sannyāsī, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg. But I am a sannyāsī. I can tell you that I am in difficulty. That is the system. So we have got four orders. Just like he's brahmacārī, and he's gṛhastha. He has got his wife, children. So he's a gṛhastha. He's a brahmacārī. Similarly, there is sannyāsī. So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. It doesn't matter whether one is a gṛhastha, householder, or renounced order or a brahmacārī or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If anyone understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he becomes the spiritual master. The exact word is, in Bengali, kiba vipra kiba śūdra nyāsi kene nāya... Do you understand little Bengali?
Prabhupāda: That is the Gosvāmīs, nidrāhāra-vihāra-vijitau, conquered over sleeping, eating, and mating. Because these three, four things āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithun..., these are material life. The spiritual life means reduction of these things. When it is nil, no more sleeping, no more eating, that is spiritual..., perfection of spiritual life. So we cannot make it nil so long this body is there, but our policy should be like that. Policy should be like that. We shall not eat more, we shall not sleep more, we shall not mate more. Those who are gṛhasthas, they can have sex life only for producing children, that's all, no more. And those who are sannyāsī, brahmacārī, they have no sex life, there is no question of sex life. Sex life is prohibited. But it is a concession for them who cannot live without sex life. That is married life. Otherwise, sex life is not very important thing. Just like there are brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, they have no sex life. Therefore, this sannyāsa, to go out of home by force, that means to avoid sex life, sannyāsa. You see?
Prabhupāda: That I tell you, not immediately. But our main business is preaching. Either do it as a gṛhastha or as sannyāsī, it does not matter. This is only formality. The real work is preaching. Just like Rāmānanda Rāya was a gṛhastha and Lord Caitanya was a sannyāsī, but He was taking lesson from Rāmānanda Rāya. This is Caitanya-līlā. He is a sannyāsī and He is God Himself, He is taking lesson from a grhastha who is His disciple. So the real thing is preaching must go on sincerely. This gṛhastha, vānaprastha, these are material regulative principles. Real life is Kṛṣṇa's service. That we have to do, that's all. So whatever position is suitable for you, you accept. You remain as a gṛhastha, remain as sannyāsī, remain as brahmacārī as it becomes suitable for you, but preach. That is the main business. If you lacking in preaching and become a sannyāsī, what is the use of sannyāsa? Better... A gṛhastha is better.
Prabhupāda: Real life is Kṛṣṇa's service. That we have to do, that's all. So whatever position is suitable for you, you accept. You remain as a gṛhastha, remain as sannyāsī, remain as brahmacārī as it becomes suitable for you, but preach. That is the main business. If you lacking in preaching and become a sannyāsī, what is the use of sannyāsa? Better... A gṛhastha is better. Just like I asked Gaurasundara to go to Hawaii. He was just a boy, but he did. Now there is center, nice. So I'm very glad. So you are also doing that. It doesn't matter whether gṛhastha. Karandhara is gṛhastha. But we have to serve Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is our main criteria. So we have to see in what position I can serve better Kṛṣṇa. That is our policy. Otherwise, either gṛhastha or sannyāsī, there's no difference.
Prabhupāda: Preaching work is for the guru. So Kṛṣṇa... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says it doesn't matter whether he is a gṛhastha or vānaprastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If he knows what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness and preaches, then he is guru. That's all. So we have to become like that. It doesn't matter what we are, but whether I am preaching nicely. That is required. But still there is some regulative principles like sannyāsī and brahmacārī will be like this, gṛhastha will be like this. That is the external. But the main business is preaching. So you have got good opportunity, you have got good name, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, it is being appreciated. So live very cautiously and preach very cautiously and seriously, then in this one life you will become successful, go back to home, back to Godhead. One life. You haven't got to wait for another life. If this life we work sincerely, then our business is finished. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9).
Prabhupāda: About ten.
Mohsin Hassan: You have ten swamis. And outside of swamis, what's the lower...
Prabhupāda: Now, they're competent. They can, not only the swamis, even the gṛhasthas, they are called dāsa adhikārī, and brahmacārīs, everyone can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciples. But as a matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can make disciples and spread. They can recruit more members in this. They do, but they are being trained up. Just like here in this meeting, one of my disciples, he is acting as priest. It is not myself; he is acting. So some of my students, they are acting as priests, some of them are swamis, so they are competent to make disciples.
Mohsin Hassan: My master, many people are interested to know something about you, and I found just not enough to know about you, and I could write volumes about your life. Could you (indistinct) about your life?
Prabhupāda: Well, a sannyāsī should not be inquired about his life. What he's acting, that's all. But I was formerly gṛhastha, householder, that's all. My life is described in short in the Īśopaniṣad, so you can see it from there.
Mohsin Hassan: Could you recall the beginning of your first trip to USA and how you spread the message? I was told that you came here with six dollars, and then...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because our government, India government would not allow to take money to go outside. So somehow or other I got the P-form sanction, and one big shipping company, they allowed me free passage. So I came here with great difficulty. Of course I was very comfortably situated on the sea, but still, because I am not accustomed, I got sea sickness. So the travel was very miserable.
Prabhupāda: I know that.
Pratyatoṣa: So this is what I planned on doing with the money, but then Bhavānanda and the GBC wondered about whether maybe the Book Fund or the around-the-world trip would have higher priority. So that's why I just wanted to donate the money, so maybe after I'm gṛhastha I could get this for you.
Prabhupāda: This money?
Devotee (4): Yeah, he wanted to donate this money for a tape recorder.
Pratyatoṣa: Yeah, but...
Devotee (4): The GBC suggested that he give it just to your Book Fund or else to pay for the around-the-world tour, to help pay for it.
Prabhupāda: So yes, you can do.
Haṁsadūta: Is that okay?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He's a gṛhastha. If he needs some money...
Haṁsadūta: Cause right now he's working full time, eight hours and day and still he's...
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Haṁsadūta: So if that's okay.
Prabhupāda: If he requires some money, give him. What can be done? That is not unusual. A gṛhastha, he requires some money.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you'll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacārī, no sex life. Brahmacārī. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause—a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. (break) The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can learn more and more.
Bob: Now I still have my connections in home. Marriage is... I'm engaged and all this...
Prabhupāda: No, no. There are so many marriages. He is married. Marriage is no barrier. I told you, there are four different orders of social life: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So after brahmacārī, one can marry. But that is not obligatory. He may remain naiṣṭhika-brahmacārī for whole life. But a brahmacārī can marry. So after marriage there is vānaprastha life. Means little aloof from family. Live—husband and wife—separately. That time there is no sex life. And then, when he's fully renounced, detached from the family life, he takes sannyāsa.
Bob: Does somebody forget his wife completely then?
Prabhupāda: No no. You invite them, that "Anyone, you are welcome. Take prasādam." We can announce. Then you can judge how many people are coming daily. You should announce that "Anyone can come and take prasādam at noon." It is the duty of a gṛhastha to loudly cry, "If anyone is hungry, please come. We have got still food." That is the duty of a gṛhastha. If one does not come, then the chief of the house, he takes prasāda. If somebody says, "I am hungry," so he should offer his own food. "You eat." This is duty of gṛhastha. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanti. Those who are cooking for themselves, they are simply eating sinful things. That's all. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). So hospitality is one of the duties of the householder. Atithi. Atithi means guest without any information. That is called atithi. Tithi means date. So if I go to your house, I inform you that "Such and such date I am coming there." But atithi, he does not inform you, all of a sudden comes.
Pradyumna: The temple should always have some prasādam there?
Prabhupāda: Temple must have. Even ordinary gṛhastha. That is Vedic civilization, not that we cook for ourself, for my husband, for my wife and children, eat it sumptuously and go to bed. No. Even gṛhastha, he should be always prepared to receive guest. Yes. And even a guest comes, your enemy, you should receive him in such a nice way that he will forget that you are all enemies. Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam. This is Vedic civilization, not that "Beware of dog. Please don't enter here. You are forbidden to come here. And if you come, I shall shoot you." Sometimes they do that. This is not human civilization. It is cats' and dogs' civilization. So actually we are teaching what is human civilization. But we must be also like human being, not cats and dogs. Otherwise how can you teach? If I am like cats and dogs, I cannot criticize others as cats and dogs. I must be first of all human being. Then I shall teach others how to become human being.
Prabhupāda: "This regulative principle is applicable to all varṇas and āśramas, the castes and occupations of life. There are four varṇas, namely the brāhmaṇas (priests and intellectuals), the kṣatriyas (warriors and statesmen), the vaiśyas (businessmen and farmers) and the śūdras (laborers and servants). There are also four standard āśramas, namely brahmacarya (student life), gṛhastha (householder), vānaprastha (retired) and sannyāsa (renounced). The regulative principles are not only for the brahmacārīs (the celibate students) to follow, but are applicable for all. It doesn't matter whether one is a beginner—a brahmacārī—or if one is very advanced—a sannyāsī. The principle of remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly and not forgetting Him at any moment is meant to be followed by everyone, without fail.
"If this injunction is followed, then all other rules and regulations will automatically fall into line. All other rules and regulations should be treated as assistants or servants to this one basic principle. The injunctions of rules and regulations and the resultant reactions are mentioned in the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Fifth Chapter, first and second verses. Camasa Muni, one of the nine sages who came to instruct King Nimi, addressed the King and said, 'The four social orders, namely the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras, have come out of the different parts of the universal form of the Supreme Lord as follows: the brāhmaṇas have come out from the head, the kṣatriyas have come out from the arms, the vaiśyas have come out from the waist, and the śūdras have come out from the legs. Similarly, the sannyāsīs have come out from the head, the vānaprasthas from the arms, the gṛhasthas from the waist and the brahmacārīs from the legs.'
Prabhupāda: There are so many married families. So many married families. He is married family, he is married family, he is married family. They have got children, wife, everything. There is no problem. The children are getting nice education, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, dancing, eating nicely. Just now we are purchasing one house in front of our temple, seventy thousand dollars for providing gṛhasthas. Husband, wife, children will live there. So we have no problem. The gṛhasthas are there, the brahmacārīs are there, sannyāsīs are there—everyone is there. We maintain the Vedic culture, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, or brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. The eight orders of social structure we maintain. But they're all engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. That is the distinction. Everyone is twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service.
Devotee: ...how a man such as yourself, in such a high position and such hierarchy was able to leave all this in order to bring this message to others?
Prabhupāda: No. It's not to be... Life is divided into four parts: brahmacārī, student, gṛhastha, householder, vānaprastha, retired life and sannyāsa. Everyone should follow this principle. First of all, as brahmacārī student he should learn sufficiently what is the value of life. Then, when he's a householder, he should live properly with husband, wife and children-properly. Then, after retired life, giving the responsibility of household life to grown-up children, he should take lessons from saintly persons. (indistinct) Then at the end he should take sannyāsa. Whatever knowledge he has gathered he must distribute by traveling from one place to another. This is Vedic civilization. Everyone should come out. Not that they should remain at home and drink and sleep for the whole life. This is Vedic civilization.
Devotee: Not so high a class.
Prabhupāda: They are doing little business because gṛhasthas, they require money. All right, do some incense, this, that. Not very big business. If one is expert like Arjuna or Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, that is different thing. Just like this Advaita, he was given in press. Now he sees that "I can work anywhere I want, so I can get money. Why I should waste my time?" He neglected. That means viṣaya attracted him. He thought, "I am qualified boy. Why I should waste my time with this press?" Therefore he went away. He sacrificed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and now he's getting some money he's satisfied. He's thinking that he has become a big man.
Prabhupāda: Well, it is still man's duty to become the husband and woman's duty to become the wife; so these propensities are there. But all this can be adjusted. I have many students and am getting them married, and they are living peacefully and advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that everyone is brahmacārī. We have many gṛhasthas and children. In this way the propensities of the women and those of the man are adjusted. A man wants a woman, and a woman wants a man, so we say, "All right, take it. Live peacefully, but don't change partners." We don't allow divorce; once they're married there is no separation. Nor do we allow boys and girls to live together as friends. If a man wants a woman and a woman wants a man, they should become united by marriage, live peacefully and advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our proposal. In this way all facilities are there in this movement. Our program is to make people become godly, and everyone should help us. Every sane man should help this movement for the good of society.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The leaders.
Prabhupāda: ...the injunction of the scripture, and still they say, "We do not know." So many drunkards priest, they are going to hospital for treatment ,and they are eating, and they are getting married man to man, and still they say, "We do not know what we have done." Just see how cheaters they are.
Jayatīrtha: In the last six years...
Jayatīrtha: In the last six years in the Catholic church, 25,000 priests have left and taken up...
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say we shall keep ourself in darkness about our next life? Is that your philosophy?
Scholar: Well I think we have to start from... We give a child educations and then gṛhastha, and vānaprastha,...
Prabhupāda: That is all right, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, that is a, different stages. But the real education is that you have to die. You have to accept another body. What kind of body you are going to accept? If you do not know that what is this meaning of gṛhastha, and vānaprastha, and sannyāsa? It is all rascal. If you do not... You miss this real point, then what is the meaning of this? There's no meaning. Simply by dressing in white cloth one becomes gṛhastha? And simply by dressing one, in this saffron cloth, he becomes sannyāsī? By changing dress he becomes everything? He must know, that what is the aim of life. Everyone should know what is the ultimate of life.
Prabhupāda: If he does not know, if he is in darkness for the next life, then what is the meaning of this gṛhastha and vānaprastha and this...?
Scholar: We believe in the stage of life so we prepare from childhood and after ...
Prabhupāda: Yes, not only we, but everyone should prepare from the childhood. This is... This Bhagavad-gītā is not meant for a particular class of men. It is meant for the human society. So this education should be spread all over the world to save them from pitfalls of a life of darkness. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We do not mean that the Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the Hindus, or for the Indians, or for the Indonesians. No, no, it is meant for everyone. They should know the science.
Prabhupāda: No, actually... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Mohammedans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas, four āśrama. The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being. He's animal, because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama. The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four divisions—the head division, the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division—all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not... that we don't require leg. Leg is also required. Similarly, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they're required to function the society perfectly. That is varṇa. And similarly, for spiritual emancipation there must be the division: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So unless you accept this institution perfectly you cannot develop your consciousness as perfect human being.
Devotee (1): A child. One boy was born just before we came here in August and he seems to be a devotee, the baby, because he, whenever you say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," he smiles.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Why he's not married man?
Devotee (1): Another wife, second. He says it was a grave mistake because if we had come sooner (indistinct) So we're trying to engage him. Also this girl which you're going to initiate, she can speak a fair amount of Indonesian already, and she can help translation work (indistinct). That girl has a sister who also chants sixteen rounds and follows the rules. Though sometimes in her past she failed and stopped and she is not as steady. So I didn't recommend. I don't know...
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is māyā. He is suffering, but he's thinking I am enjoying. So any conditioned soul, he doesn't enjoy anything. He simply suffers. But he thinks that he is enjoying. Therefore the camel, camel example is given. Camel example. Camel, he is eating his own blood, eating thorns, and the thorns cutting the tongue, and from the tongue, blood is oozing out. So when the blood is mixed up with the thorny twigs, it becomes little tasteful, and he is thinking "Oh, it is very nice." Similarly, all these gṛhasthas, enjoying sex life, he is discharging his own blood, he's becoming weaker and weaker, he is thinking, "I am enjoying." He is thinking, "I am enjoying." And if he uses more, then he becomes diseased, tuberculosis. He is dying by that process, but he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore it is example for the camel. He is enjoying his own blood by discharging. One drop of semen is made out of so many drops of blood. Do you know?
Prabhupāda: "It doesn't matter whether he's a sannyāsī or gṛhastha or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra; it doesn't matter. If he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he's all right." So this is very reasonable. One requires to know the science. (Hindi) People are interested in whether he knows medical science. That's all. He may be a brāhmaṇa, a śūdra. It doesn't matter. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means one should be Kṛṣṇa conscious. He should know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then he's all right. It doesn't matter what he is. Caitanya Mahāprabhu... Just like Śaṅkarācārya, (Hindi) First of all, you become sannyāsa. Then you talk of spiritual thing. That was his condition. And he would simply offer sannyāsa to the caste brāhmaṇa. Nobody else. Stricture. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu is very liberal, that "Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha, it does not matter. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can act as spiritual master. You must know the science of Kṛṣṇa." So he's Dhruvānanda?
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sva-karmaṇā, by his own business... Just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was kṣatriya. So sva-karmaṇā, by his fighting business, he served Kṛṣṇa. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. The Sūta Gosvāmī said—all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya—so he said, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ (SB 1.2.13). You are all very first-class brāhmaṇas. So this is the verdict. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. According to the division of varṇa and āśrama. Four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān... (CC Madhya 8.58). When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varṇa and āśrama, at that time he is recognized as human being. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate... But that is the beginning of Viṣṇu worship. So Sūta Gosvāmī said, varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. You may be a brāhmaṇa. You may be a kṣatriya. You may be a vaiśya. You may be a śūdra. You may be a brahmacārī. You may be a gṛhastha.
Guest (7): Because it creates some problems to somebody if you go somewhere, you don't want tea. Coffee... "Oh, no, I don't want it." They say, "What sort of drink?" "Oh no, I don't want anything." And about food, "No, only an ounce..."
Prabhupāda: Now, when I was gṛhastha, so they offered tea, I said, "I don't take tea." Then they said "Milk?" "Yes, all right. You can give me milk." I'd take little milk. Or you can take little cold drink, soda water. That sugar and water, little lemon. He wants to offer you something. So there are so many other varieties, varieties. But if he insists, "You must take tea," that is not hospitality.
Guest (7): But what happens is somebody else comes in, you know.
Guest (8): Hospitality means prasādam.
Guest (9): There won't be any place for me to go now.
Prabhupāda: We have got such a big house. We welcome all. Yes, bad habit is... Habit is second nature sometimes, but one should be determined. Therefore we have got four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Whichever is suitable. Just like here. He's gṛhastha. His wife, children, all are devotees. So he doesn't require to become a sannyāsī.
Guest (1): He is lucky.
Prabhupāda: Yes, lucky.
Guest (9): He is lucky. For some of them, half of them, they go here, half of them go there.
Prabhupāda: No, this kind of family life is very suitable. This is wanted. All the wife... His wife is very nice girl. And she is good devotee. So if wife is favorable, then everything is favorable. Household life means cooperation with wife. Na gṛhaṁ gṛham ity āhur gṛhiṇī gṛham ucyate. Just like we are also living within a room, gṛha. But we are sannyāsī. What is the difference between gṛhastha and sannyāsī? He lives with his wife. Gṛhiṇī gṛham ity āhuḥ. Gṛhiṇī means "the wife is gṛha." So if the wife is favorable, devotee, then there is no use of giving up family life. That's all. We have got so many married couples. Just like this boy. He's married. His wife is there. They are favorable. Both husband and wife, they have dedicated life for Kṛṣṇa. So it is very nice. It is not that he has to become sannyāsī. No. Why? There is no necessity. Gṛhe vā vanete thāko. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha, the life must be dedicated for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is required. And for Kṛṣṇa's sake, if we have to give up something, is that very difficult job?
Prabhupāda: Eh? (laughter) But they get their food and shelter and everything. Even they live with a wife, children. So we,... Kṛṣṇa gives. Not only that we are simply sannyāsī, brahmacārī. There are gṛhasthas, householders, husband, wife, children. They are also living. So that is not our problem. How to eat, how to sleep, that is not our problem. Our only problem is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. That is...
Guest (1): Yes. That was the question that was puzzling me. What is...?
Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. Not in a moment you can understand. Then you have to come to the schooling process. Otherwise how you can learn? In a moment? Such a big subject matter?
Prabhupāda: (Hindi for some time, a few English words) (break) (Hindi for some time) (break) When the destiny of the people are to be controlled, there must be very, very intelligent man. That is Vedic civilization. There is standard aims and objects on which the people should be trained up. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. Viṣṇur ārādhanam. Worshiping Viṣṇu. This is the ultimate aim. So the whole society is divided into brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa—departmental—and they are trained up. But the aim is viṣṇur ārādhanam. But they have no idea at the present moment. Viṣṇur ārādhanam, he has no knowledge. But the civilization begins on this point. Human being means he's meant for viṣṇur ārādhanam. Otherwise what is the difference between dogs and human beings? The western people, they do not know.
Prabhupāda: And we are practically seeing that they are becoming delightful, living very happily, preaching all over the world. I started this movement alone in 1966, but these boys, inexperienced boys, having no spiritual training... They were trained up in their own ways, meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication, but they gave up all these habits and delightfully they are going any part of the world and preaching this cult, and we are meeting with success. It is not that I have gone every place. It is not possible. I am old man. So I give them direction. Just like this boy. He's a gṛhastha. So husband and wife, they are organizing in Germany. We have got four, five branches in Germany. We have published this record and so many books and literatures. So this Saṅkīrtana Movement, even though conducted by inexperienced young men, but they are creating delight to the masses.
Prabhupāda: Those who are taking according to the instruction, they're becoming happy. Practical. Without any consideration of time, country, people. Anyone is accepting, and he's becoming happy. And they are not expected to undergo very severe type of austerities. Neither prāṇāyāma or yoga. They are unable. Simply I have advised them, "With these beads chant Hare Kṛṣṇa sixteen rounds." They are chanting. It is very easy. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma... Sixteen rounds. It takes about two hours. And they're refraining from four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, gambling, intoxication, meat-eating. This much they are following austerities, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, taking prasādam. They are happy. Anyone can take. It is not difficult at all. Anyone. They are gṛhasthas. It is not that one has to become a sannyāsī. No. All my, these disciples... Here is a gṛhastha. Here is a sannyāsī. Here is a brahmacārī. So all together, they are serving the same purport. And we are getting good result. You have seen our Ratha-yātrā?
Prabhupāda: These twelve. Brahmā, Svayambhūḥ; Nārada Muni; Śambhuḥ, Lord Śiva; svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kapilaḥ (SB 6.3.20), Kapiladeva; kumāra, catuḥsana-kumāra; manuḥ, Manu; then Janaka, Bhīṣma, Prahlāda, then Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Bali Mahārāja, and Yamarāja, vayam. So these are eight mahājanas. Out of them, Nārada is brahmacārī, Brahmā is gṛhastha,... Svayambhūr nāradaḥ... Śambhu is gṛhastha. Then Kapila, brahmacārī, Kumāra, brahmacārī. Then Manu, gṛhastha; Janaka-rāja, gṛhastha, Bhīṣma, brahmacārī, then Śukadeva Gosvāmī, brahmacārī; then Bali Mahārāja, gṛhastha; Yamarāja, gṛhastha. So there are gṛhastha, brahmacārī. It doesn't matter. Everyone can become mahājana by his example of service to Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also never said that a, one has to become brahmacārī. No. He Himself was gṛhastha. So there is no difficulty. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kapilaḥ kumāro manuḥ... (SB 6.3.20). (pause) (prasādam comes in) You take.
Prabhupāda: Yes, our children, we have got our own school. All these boys, they have got their children. They are gṛhasthas, householders. So we have got our nice school at Dallas, very big school.
Mother: But you have got a school, a Kṛṣṇa school?
Prabhupāda: Yes, oh, yes.
Mother: And now, how...? Do they go through college?
Prabhupāda: They are now little children. But we don't wish to send them to college. We have got sufficient books.
Mother: So you'll cut off their education like that?
Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as simply wasting time. That's all.
- dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ puṁsāṁ
- viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ
- notpādayed ratiṁ yadi
- śrama eva hi kevalam
- (SB 1.2.8)
Śrama eva hi kevalam. Everyone is acting. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ. According to Vedic civilization, there are four divisions of men. brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and further, spiritual divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So everyone has got some duty according to his position. So Bhāgavata says that even a person executes his duty very perfectly, but if he does not awaken his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all that he has done is simply a waste of time. So our point is that the UNESCO, United Nations, UNO, they're simply wasting their time. From practical point of view, they're unable to do anything. Because the original idea was to stop war. But the war is going on, fighting is going on. They could not stop it. And United Nations... But actually they are becoming disunited more and more. Pakistan was not there. You know very well. Lahore was your country.
Prabhupāda: No, wife also involved. Everyone is involved. The child is also involved. You'll find in our class a small child dancing to the tune. Yes. We have opened one school for children in Dallas. All the gṛhastha-bhaktas, those who have got children, we send there. Have you got pictures of Dallas? So there we have got very nice building, and, about, for the present, about near about hundred students. They're simply taught Sanskrit and English.
Professor: Nothing else.
Prabhupāda: Nothing else. Later on, little geometry, geography, mathematics. They're not meant for outside work. They're meant for as soon as they learn Sanskrit and English, they'll read these books.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our history, we find so many gṛhasthas, householder, kings, rājarṣi. In the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Rājā, king, at the same time, ṛṣi. This was the king. Just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Rājarṣi. He's a king, but ṛṣi. You read that portion. Yes. The government of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, how they were happy, just see. Kāmam, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). Parjanya. Parjanya means cloud, yes. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). The, all our necessities come from the rain. Now there is scarcity of rain. What the government can do or the scientists can do? And if there is no rain, then all your plan is finished.
Prabhupāda: He only thought. But Guru Mahārāja never asked that these three men should be trustees. He wanted governing body. So the rebellion broke out immediately after his passing away. And then fight in the high-court. And Kunja Babu, he is very intelligent man. So from the very beginning he knew that "There will be fight after the demise of Guru Mahārāja. So fight will be in the high-court. So at the expense of Guru Mahārāja, let my brother and sons become attorneys and barrister so I will have not to pay all these things." It was a planned thing. And that is being done. He was a clerk, it was not in his power to make his brother and sons attorneys and barristers. They were all made at the cost of Gauḍīya Maṭha to fight with (indistinct) in favor of Tīrtha Mahārāja. These were the planned things. But I was a rotten gṛhastha. I did not join any one of them. (Prabhupāda laughs) I was rotting in my household life. That's all. But I was planning how to make, how to make this. That was my desire from the very beginning, since I heard it. But I was never with them, either this party or that party. And Guru Mahārāja also recommended, apnader tasturi tublia thaki bhavan. Takhona (?). "When there will be need, he will do himself. There is no need of living with you. It is better to live apart from you."
Prabhupāda: I was rotting in my household life. That's all. But I was planning how to make, how to make this. That was my desire from the very beginning, since I heard it. But I was never with them, either this party or that party. And Guru Mahārāja also recommended, apnader tasturi tublia thaki bhavan. Takhona (?). "When there will be need, he will do himself. There is no need of living with you. It is better to live apart from you." When I was recommended by Goswami Mahārāja to live in the Maṭha, that "He is so nice." Sometimes he recommended. In Bombay, here in this Bombay. That house. Yes. He (Guru Mahārāja) said "Yes, he is very expert. He can do. So it is better to live apart from you. And he will do everything when there is need." He said. I could not understand. Although I was apart from them, a gṛhastha. In this Bombay I was doing business. (people talking outside)
Prabhupāda: Now he is there also in Los Angeles, our Umāpati.
Brahmānanda: Oh Umāpati. In Los Angeles, yes. I saw him when I went there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is doing nice there. Now he's gṛhastha. He has got a job in Spiritual Sky. So he is now steady. The Spiritual Sky is doing one thing, that providing so many gṛhastha devotees.
Gargamuni: Some activity for them to do.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Karandhara is managing very nicely, giving them some pocket expense. And instead of renting elsewhere, they are tenant of our house. So we have got tenants, but no trouble from the tenants.
Prabhupāda: Ah. When it was suggested that I purchase house, I said that "I am not going to have this tenants' trouble. That is very botheration." So Karandhara suggested that "We have got our own tenants. Why they should stay in other apartment house? If we have got our house, they will stay, and there will be no trouble." "Then it is all right." They require house. So all gṛhasthas, they have got separate apartment, living very peacefully. So anyway, every one of us should observe strictly the regulative principles and serve sincerely. Kṛṣṇa will help us.
Gargamuni: In Calcutta we're approaching all of the libraries. At least twenty-five libraries have ordered your books, complete sets.
Prabhupāda: So you see, anywhere we can approach. I sold in Bombay all libraries, my previous Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So increase the fire. Yes. But because we have got this body, we have to utilize it to make the best use of a bad bargain. Therefore marriage is allowed, gṛhastha life is allowed, not for increasing sex life, but to finish it as soon as possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even in the very lower forms of life, there are some species, they reproduce without any sex? It's called asexual reproduction.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Oh yes. These bugs, bedbugs, they produce by this blood. You kill...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We cannot check reproduction.
Prabhupāda: So what does it mean? Christians, they do not take part in politics?
Umāpati: Well, they can't do it as...
Karandhara: Not the churches.
Prabhupāda: No, not the churches. Our gṛhasthas will take part. The sannyāsīs will give advice. Directly the gṛhasthas will fight. Gṛhastha, not gṛhastha. There should be an administrative class. That is... Now it is prescribed in the Bhagavad-gītā. There should be four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Now, it is spoken by God. Therefore it should be rejected? Does it mean? God is for everything. What is this nonsense? And Kṛṣṇa acted as kṣatriya. Therefore He should not be God? Is that very good argument? God is all-inclusive. And religion means God's word, carrying out God's word. That is religion. So how you can make separate?
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Two kinds of things are there, sinful and pious, through the cycle of birth is going on. But this human form of life or above human form of life, it is a chance for understanding the real value of life, and therefore for human beings there are guidances, these Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta-sūtra. It is meant for the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kaila (CC Madhya 20.117). So it is recommended in the human form of life, first of all training as a brahmacārī, then he may remain as gṛhastha for sometime. The life is divided into four parts, twenty-five years. Suppose I live a hundred years: twenty-five years to become brahmacārī, remain as brahmacārī, and twenty-five years to remain as gṛhastha, family man, and twenty-five years as vānaprastha and twenty-five years as sannyāsa. This is system, Vedic system. Sannyāsa means vānaprastha is the prepāration for sannyāsa, and sannyāsa means completely dedicated to the service of Kṛṣṇa. This is our system.
Dr. Patel: That is on the day of Holita. Holi? No.
Prabhupāda: Holi, yes.
Dr. Patel: Māyāpur is in East Bengal?
Prabhupāda: No, West Bengal. Border of East and West. (break) What these gṛhasthas?
Dr. Patel: No, they are...
Guest (1): (indistinct)
Dr. Patel: We are not going there?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then, after Dvārakā, they are expecting us in Hyderabad by about the twenty... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if there is no other alternative, what can I do? In the beginning I had no disciples. So I was cooking myself. So one gentleman, he... Later on, he became my disciple. He gave me some place. I was cooking. And in the refrigerator, I saw there was meat. (laughs) So I asked: "What is this?" He said, "It is for cats. I don't take meat." "All right. (laughter) I'll do (?)." So of course, I stayed there for three, four days. And if I cry, "Oh, I have violated my rules and regulations..." Rules and regulations can be violated when there is urgent necessity of service, not whimsically or for one's sense gratification. And that is, of course, in our present..., with the permission of the spiritual master, not one should think, "Oh, I have become so much great devotee, I can violate all the rules and regulations." No, you cannot. If there is need of violating rules and regulations, you must take permission. Now we have no temple. Under the circumstances, we are doing that. So you construct the temple as soon as possible so that people may not criticize you. (break) ...for all gṛhastha devotees, you should begin preaching amongst the gṛhasthas. It is not forbidden for the gṛhasthas to preach. Because preaching is required everywhere. Arjuna was gṛhastha. So yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). One must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can become preacher.
Prabhupāda: This is preaching. It doesn't matter whether one is sannyāsī or gṛhastha, Or a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra. It doesn't matter. If one knows the science of Kṛṣṇa then he can become guru. And He said, "By My order, you become guru and deliver your country." Ei deśa. Ei deśa means "your country." "So what is to be done?" "Now, just whomever you meet, you instruct him about the instruction given by Kṛṣṇa." (break) ...seeing that "Why our, you are living on the top of the temple?" You inform them that, "You have not seen yet temple. It is not temple."
Guest (1): It is temporary...
Prabhupāda: You have yet to see what is temple. "Temple will be constructed. This is not temple." I wanted to stay in the dharmaśālā of Tīrtha Mahārāja, to construct the temple. I requested him that "Some of my men will stay in the dharmaśālā." He refused. Then how can I construct temple?
Prabhupāda: Oh, so do it. (break) ...bhakti's, as I explained, apratihatā. Any condition, bhakti can be executed. The example is given: Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī and Rāmānanda Rāya. Rāmānanda Rāya was gṛhastha and governor, and he was very comfortably situated. And Rūpa Gosvāmī was living underneath a tree every night. And both of them were equally... Rather, Rāmānanda Rāya was accepted in greater position than Rūpa Gosvāmī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was in renounced order of life, but He gave even better position to Rāmānanda Rāya than Rūpa Gosvāmī. And Rāmānanda Rāya was a gṛhastha. He was not even a brāhmaṇa. And governor, very opulent. Very comfortable situation. You know this?
Prabhupāda: ...our gṛhastha householders, how they are rising early, taking bath in Yamunā, coming to the temple.
Prabhupāda: This is Vedic culture. (break) ...of eating. Western culture means: early in the morning tea. First of all tea, and, what is called?
Prabhupāda: Coffee, tea, and so many other things.
Devotee: Oh, toast. Toast.
Dr. Patel: The karma of a man depends upon his position in the society...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, (etc.)
Dr. Patel: ...whether he's a kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra whether he's a sannyāsī or a gṛhastha. That karma. And that karma when he does without any expectation of any fruits, that karma is as good as bhakti according to this line, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Without... The result should be there, but tam, unto Kṛṣṇa. Give the result to Kṛṣṇa. Tam abhyarcya. Not self. You earn lakhs of rupees, but tam abhyarcya, give to Kṛṣṇa. Not take it yourself or distribute amongst your children. That is service. Tam abhyarcya. Tam abhyarcya. First of all understand this word, tam. Tam abhyarcya.
Dr. Patel: Catur-vidhā bhajante... My name is Caturbhai. (Prabhupāda chuckles)
Mr. Sar: One of them, catur-vidhā. But they... Their mode of worship is fourfold, ārto jijñāsur arthārthī... (break)
Prabhupāda: Ārto, ārto jijñāsi means gṛhasthas.
Dr. Patel: Teṣāṁ jñānī...
Prabhupāda: And jñānī and jijñāsu, sannyāsīs.
Mr. Sar: Jñānī and... I see. Ārto and...
Prabhupāda: Ārto and... Because they, the grhasthas, they feel distress of this material world.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Jijñāsu. He's jijñāsu. So they are better.
Dr. Patel: Jñānī, jijñāsu and jñānī, both together.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The jijñāsu and jñānī is almost the same thing. Anyway, so, so gṛhasthas are inferior because as soon as their distressed condition is over, they, they are no more interested.
Dr. Patel: They forget so.
Prabhupāda: They are no more interested. But these jñānīs and jijñāsu, because they want to know what is Kṛṣṇa, they continue. That is the difference.
Guest (1): Even jñānī and jijñāsu also?
Dr. Patel: Teṣāṁ jñānī nitya-yukta eka-bhaktir viśiṣyate.
Prabhupāda: The Vaiṣṇava, Vaiṣṇava has no duty except serving Kṛṣṇa. That's all.
Dr. Patel: That's right. But a Vaiṣṇava family...
Chandobhai: Gṛhasthas, gṛhasthas.
Dr. Patel: Gṛhasthas.
Prabhupāda: He, whatever he may be. That is stated, that is stated that...
Dr. Patel: Only Jains can do.
Prabhupāda: That is stated that pitṛṇām. No, what is that verse? Devarṣi-bhūtāpta-nṛnam-pitṛṇām (SB 11.5.41). We are... Just like we are indebted to our forefathers, family, similarly we are indebted to devas, the demigods. Just like the sun is supplying light. So we are indebted. Deva, ṛṣi, to the great, big, big, saintly ṛṣis. They have given us the śāstras. Devarṣi, devarṣi bhūtā... Bhūtā, ordinary living entities. Just like you are taking milk from the cows. And another, horse, is giving me service. So devarṣi-bhūtā apta, relatives.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they cannot. Why they cannot? Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamiśram (SB 7.5.30). This gṛha-vrata means their sense enjoyment. This gṛhastha life is a concession for sense gratification, license. Actually, it is not required. Sex life is not required. But those who cannot avoid the sex life, they are given some license, "All right, you enjoy sex life, marry one woman, remain as faithful husband and wife." So unless one determines that "This is not my life, gṛha-vrata..." Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). In another place it is said also, by Sukadeva Gosvāmī, one who cannot understand what is his self-interest, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam, actually what is needed, what is the need of the soul, gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...presence of a brāhmaṇa, of a sannyāsī, in the household, in the house of a householder, means to enlighten. Mahad-vicalanaṁ nṛnām gṛhinām gṛhacet dīna-cetasām. The gṛhasthas, they are very cripple-minded. They are satisfied with the family, and they do not know that anything else to do. Therefore it is the duty of the sannyāsī and the brāhmaṇas to go to the householder's home and enlighten them spiritually. Therefore purohita. Go on. (break) ...pura. Purasara means "in the front", and hita means welfare. So one who conducts welfare of the householder. Guru-purohita. Every family must have guru and purohita for spiritual advancement. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.
Indian Man (1): For all the vices...
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...gṛha-medhinām. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). Those who are gṛhamedhis and do not know anything else except maintaining the family, they are called gṛhamedhi. And those who cultivating spiritual consciousness in gṛhastha life with family and children, they are called gṛhasthas. That is the difference between gṛhamedhi and gṛhastha. So gṛhamedhi, they have no aim of life, of self-realization. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam (SB 2.1.2). That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Nṛnāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ. (break) ...self-realization. Nṛnāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam (SB 2.1.2), who cannot see what is the ātma-tattvam, what is the path of self-realization. Gṛheṣu gṛhamedhinām. Therefore it is the duty of the sannyāsī... Sannyāsī does not mean that he will beg for fulfilling his hungry belly. Sannyāsī means he must enlighten—that is sannyāsī—in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...rājendra nṛnaṁ santi sahasrasaḥ apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2).
Prabhupāda: Just like in the newspaper in the morning, thousands of varieties of news they will attend, and ask them to attend the maṅgala ārati for self-realization, "No, that is not... You are disturbing, nonsense." This is gṛhamedhi. Gṛheṣu gṛhamedhinām. Vedic culture is that one must rise early in the morning. And even Kṛṣṇa in His gṛhastha life, immediately He rose up. Rukmiṇī was disturbed because womanly nature, and again immediately taking bath, meditation. This is Vedic culture. And sleeping up to seven and then unless takes bed tea, without washing teeth, and he is advanced. You see. And if one is asked to "Rise early in the morning and wash yourself, take your bathing and attend maṅgala ārati." "Oh, this is old way, bhajana nonsense." You see. Gṛheṣu gṛhamedhinām.
Girirāja: "Actually a saintly person or a brāhmaṇa has no business visiting householders who are busy in the matter of dollars and cents." (break)
Prabhupāda: But that is now neglected.
Prabhupāda: They did not take care. They knew that he is not at all affected by any woman. And when his father was going, they covered. So father inquired, Vyāsadeva, a personality like Vyāsadeva, said, "Why you covered? I am old man, and my young son he was passing naked." They said that "He is paramahaṁsa. He has no agitation of the mind. But you are gṛhastha. You live with woman. You have got distinction, man and woman." So this is civilization. What is the use of sex life? It is simply entanglement. Therefore, at the last stage, one is supposed to become sannyāsī. What is sannyāsī? Vānaprastha, sannyāsī, brahmacārī—no sex life. Out of the four different status of life, the brahmacārī has no sex life, the vānaprastha has no sex life, the sannyāsī has no sex life. Only the gṛhastha. That means it is prohibitory. It is allowed—it is simply concession to the person who cannot remain without sex life. It is simply a concession. Otherwise, according to Vedic civilization, there is no need of sex life. Because it is entanglement, simply entanglement. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham (SB 7.9.45). The example has been given. There is itching between the two hands.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said, "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as gṛhastha, live. If you want to live as vānaprastha or as sannyāsa... So generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the śāstra. But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life. That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: No need. Then when the brahmacārī is allowed to become gṛhastha, he can keep more than one wife if he's able to provide them nicely. Here they marry today and tomorrow divorce. The... No meaning of marriage. Simply prostitution. Because he does not need a wife. His sex life is satisfied in so many ways. So why he should be affected, attached to wife? And why the wife should be attached to the husband? Therefore divorce. It is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Dam-patye ratim eva hi. In the Kali-yuga, married life means sex life. For sex satisfaction, they'll marry. Otherwise, there is no need of marrying. That is... Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Marriage means that they, both of them agree that "We shall live together for some time." These things are happening, already foretold. By agreement, "Yes, we shall live together." That is marriage. "And then I may divorce." Actually, they do not know what is the meaning of marriage. All dependent on sex. Rati. Rati means... Dam-patye ratim eva hi. Vipratve sūtram eva hi: "To become brāhmaṇa means just have a thread only."
Prabhupāda: Responsibility is that you have got this human form of life, realize God, this is wanted. Otherwise you are finished. Three words. You have got this human form of life, your only responsibility is to understand God. This is your responsibility. That is Vedic culture. For understanding God, many, many kings, many, many saints, they left everything and went to the forest to realize God. That is Vedic culture. Bharata Mahārāja, under whose name India is called Bhāratavarṣa, he was the emperor of this planet, and at the age of twenty-four years he left everything to realize God. This is Vedic culture. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His position was very, very nice as a gṛhastha. A nice beautiful wife, affectionate mother, good influence, brāhmaṇa family, learned scholar—everything first class. He left everything, just to show us. He was God Himself, but to set the example, tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīm (SB 11.5.34), He gave up a kingdom, a fortune, which is aspired by the demigods. Such a nice life, such a nice family, (indistinct). Tyaktvā su-dustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīṁ dharmiṣṭha ārya (SB 11.5.34), just to teach us the process of realizing God. This is Vedic culture. Be careful, somebody may not (indistinct). There is enough water? No.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Everything is there.
Prabhupāda: We do not deny anything. We simply request, "Be civilized, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And this is practical; everyone is seeing this. We have got gṛhasthas, vānaprasthas, brahmacārī, sannyāsī. We have no such objection.
Yogeśvara: I can remember now. When I was in college, there were so many groups trying to reform the young people, the Y.M.C.A, the church groups, so many different social-working groups, trying to make young people become more, not so restless, not so much wild, but no, nothing. Couldn't do a thing. I remember I used to go to school when I was in college once a week to take care of one young boy because he was making so much trouble. They asked if some student from the university would come to see with him and talk with him once a week, to go out and go to the park and so on.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) So Akbar (indistinct) asked Birbal, "What is your idea of sex life? How long it continues?" He answered, "Up to the point of death." "No, no. I don't believe it." "All right." So one day all of a sudden Birbal came to Akbar (indistinct) house, "Sir, you have to go with me immediately with your youngest daughter." So Akbar (indistinct)'s daughter, king's daughter, very (indistinct). So the father and the daughter and Birbal went to see one dying man. The man was dying, and he asked, Birbal (indistinct) that "You simply see his face." So when he was entering, that man was looking to that young girl, not the Akbar (indistinct). He was looking over that young girl. Both of them were intelligent. Then Akbar (indistinct) said, "Yes." And our śāstra says yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). What is the happiness of the gṛhastha life? Gṛhastha is different, gṛhamedhi. There are two words. Gṛhastha means living husband and wife together, but the aim is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And gṛhamedhi means he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness; therefore his life is sex. That is the difference. Therefore, this word is used, gṛhamedhi. Yan maithunādi. What is the standard of happiness? Maithu, sex, that's all. Yan maithunādi. All these gṛhasthas, you will find they are accumulating money, they are enjoying sex life, then daughter's sex life, son's sex life, grandson's sex life.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Sarva-śāstre kaya, lava-mātra sādhu-saṅge sarva-siddhi haya (CC Madhya 22.54). For me, personally, I had the opportunity to talk with my spiritual master not more than ten times in my whole life, not more. It may be less than that. But I tried to follow his instruction, that's all, although I was a gṛhastha.
Bali Mardana: You are a much better student than us.
Prabhupāda: So this is the process. That is the... You sing every day. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya **. That is the process. Wherever you live, if you follow strictly the instruction of guru, then you remain perfect. But if we create, concoct ideas against the instruction of guru, then we are doomed, hell. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi **. There is no more shelter, finished. Yasya prasādāt. If guru thinks that "This person, I wanted to take him back to home, back to Godhead. Now he is going against me. He is not following," aprasādāt, he is displeased, then everything is finished.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Anyway, follow the instruction. That is required. Follow the instruction. Wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. You are secure. Follow the instruction. Then you are secure anywhere. It doesn't matter. Just like I told you that I saw my Guru Mahārāja not more than ten days in my life, but I followed his instruction. I was a gṛhastha, I never lived with the Maṭha, in the temple. It is practical. So many Godbrothers recommended that "He should be in charge in this Bombay temple, this, that, that..." Guru Mahārāja said, "Yes, better he lives outside. That is good, and he will do what is needed in due course of time."
Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!
Prabhupāda: He said like that. I could not understand at that time what does he expect. Of course, I knew that he wanted me to preach.
Guest (4): But is it possible to lead the life of a gṛhastha and at the same time think of that?
Prabhupāda: Well, Arjuna was gṛhastha and a king and a politician. If he could learn within half an hour the aim of life, then where is the difficulty for a gṛhastha? Arjuna was not a sannyāsī. So it was spoken to him only, and Kṛṣṇa selected that "You are the right person." So there is no question of gṛhastha, sannyāsī. The person must be right to understand.
Guest (4): Is it possible to develop some such kind of psyche?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Arjuna was not willing to fight. Then he developed; "Yes, I must fight for Kṛṣṇa." That is development.
Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha is also āśrama. It is as good as sannyāsa āśrama. You can accept any āśrama suitable for you, but āśrama means cultivation of spiritual knowledge. That is the difference between āśrama and ordinary house. Now, this building is called temple, and the next building is called house. Why? The building is the same. But it is meant for cultivating spiritual knowledge. Therefore it is called temple, to understand God. The other house is meant for eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Therefore they are house. So you can change your house into temple provided you try to understand God. Then it is āśrama. Otherwise it is house.
Guest (4): But is it possible to jump from brahmacārī to directly sannyāsa?
Prabhupāda: It is not jumping. It is regular process.
Guest (4): One should go through all the...
Prabhupāda: Why sannyāsī? Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32). He does not say to become sannyāsī. He said, "One who takes shelter of Me very firmly..." We have to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. You become sannyāsī or not sannyāsī—it doesn't matter. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. He never says that "You become sannyāsī." He never said. The qualification is how to become firmly fixed up at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is qualification. But sannyāsī is a process. Brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha—that is a process. But one who takes directly shelter of Kṛṣṇa is above all these processes.
Prabhupāda: Those who are pure devotees—avyabhicāreṇi, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Brs. 1.1.11)—such persons are above this material infection. So therefore he doesn't require to accept sannyāsa or brahmacārī. He doesn't... These are gradual processes, to come to the varṇāśrama system, then accept the varṇa and āśramas, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha. This is called varṇāśrama system. But this is the beginning of human life. One who does not take to this system, he's animal because animal, there is no such system. And because in this age the varṇāśrama is not observed, therefore men are like animals. Dharmeṇa hīnā paṣubhiḥ samānāḥ. Dharma means this varṇāśrama-dharma. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So if the human society does not accept dharma, then he's as good as animal.
Prabhupāda: This human form of body is obtained after many, many millions of years' struggle. So this is also temporary, as the cats' and dogs' body, they are also temporary. But although it is temporary, it is arthadam. You can achieve the real purpose of life. That is the privilege of this human form of... Therefore as soon as possible, the spiritual education should begin, immediately. If the child simply can understand, "God is great," that is immense profit for him. (break) ...means from five years to twenty-five years, brahmacārī, he has nothing to learn except God, brahmacārī. Brāhme carati iti brahmacārī. He is simply interested in Brahmān. That is called brahmacārī. He has no material interest. That is the foundation of spiritual life. Brahmacārī. And if he can, he remains brahmacārī throughout the whole life. But if he is unable, then he is allowed to marry, gṛhastha. So according to Vedic civilization, any education should begin at childhood. Therefore even one is king's son, he was sent to Gurukula to remain as brahmacārī to learn the basic principle of life. That is Vedic civilization.
Prabhupāda: This nonsense thing has created all problems. Therefore Vedic civilization is—first teaching is brahmacārī—how to learn to avoid sex life. If one can continue without sex life he is praised, naiṣṭhika-brahmacārī. If one cannot, all right you become a perfect gṛhastha. So many rules and regulations. Dharmāviruddhaḥ kāma, that is all right, but if you use sex life for sense gratification and becomes implicated in so many sinful activities, then how he'll be happy? A sinful man cannot become happy, that is not possible. All our sinful activities, the so-called scientists are helping, "Yes, you can do this." And the church is sanctioning. This is going on. The Christian religion says, "Thou shalt not kill," and they are now teaching, "yes, you can kill the child. You have killed cows and so many things, that is all right. Again you kill your child."
Prabhupāda: That was second stage. The first stage I used to publish and distribute as gṛhastha, I did not mind whether one page or not. I was distributing. So spending about four hundred, five hundred rupees, I did not care if one page or not, but I'll distribute. Then, when I retired, left home, I was publishing and distributing myself to get subscription. The subscription was very cheap, two rupees, four annas, I think, for the year. Two copies per month. Just like you published The Harmonist? Like that. Then I published Bhāgavatam. So I was going to libraries, school, colleges, and everyone was purchasing. My Bhāgavata was being purchased by your Congress Library. In Delhi they have got office. So there was standing order, eighteen copies of my book as soon as they are published. The head librarian in India, New Delhi, he gave me standing order. Dallas is very cold? No. Like this.
Devotee (1): Can you satisfy equally as brahmacārī or gṛhastha or sannyāsī? Can you satisfy equally in whatever path you have chosen?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The satisfaction is the point. So just like the head of the family, he is asking his wife to do something, children to do something, servant to do something. So if they are doing according to the order, then it is very nice. The head of the family is satisfied, and everything is going nicely. Anywhere, in office also. There are different officers, secretaries, managers, and the director. He has given: "You do this. You do that. You do that. You do that." So if they do their duty, then everything is nice. Just like in your body. Here also we have got different parts. The hand does something, the leg something, the belly something, the brain something. What the brain does, the leg does not do. But the leg is doing for the satisfaction of the whole body. The brain is doing for the satisfaction of the whole body. Hand is doing for the satisfaction of the whole body. That is required, not that what is brain doing, the leg has to do the same.
Prabhupāda: The same example: Leg is doing something else than the hand, hand is doing something else than the brain, but the real purpose is to satisfy the whole. So Kṛṣṇa is not asking Vyāsadeva to come and fight in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra. Vyāsadeva is doing his own work. He is writing literature, Vedavyāsa. He is asking Arjuna to fight. But although the activities are different-Vyāsadeva is writing Vedānta-sūtra, and Arjuna is fighting—but both of them are equally important. Kṛṣṇa says Arjuna, bhakto 'si: "You are My very dear friend," and priyo 'si (BG 4.3), "Therefore I shall speak to you about this Bhagavad-gītā." Kṛṣṇa did not say, "Call Vyāsadeva. I have to speak Bhagavad-gītā. He is learned scholar." No. Arjuna was not a learned scholar; he was a warrior. And he was a gṛhastha, busy in politics. Still, He called Arjuna, "Yes, I shall speak to you Bhagavad-gītā." Why? Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So to become devotee doesn't require that one has to become very big scholar or very rich man. No. Simply you have to agree, "Yes, Sir, what You say I shall do," that's all. This is bhakta. To become bhakta is not very difficult thing. You simply agree, "Kṛṣṇa, what You say, I shall do," that's all. Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73).
Jayatīrtha: Anyway, let me finish... That's why I don't want to discuss this in front of Prabhupāda, because of argument. Anyway, the next point is that, as far as Karandhara's salary is concerned...
Prabhupāda: No, the Spiritual Sky was contemplated that our gṛhastha bhaktas may be employed...
Haṁsadūta: Yeah, but they're not employed anymore.
Jayatīrtha: That's not true.
Prabhupāda: And the bare necessities should be paid.
Prabhupāda: And the bare necessities should be paid.
Jayatīrtha: Right. Well, generally we have about seventeen, eighteen gṛhasthas employed in Los Angeles, and they get much smaller salary, and they, for the most part, they're giving everything over subsistence to the temple as donation. They take out minimum subsistence...
Prabhupāda: But Karandhara is not giving anything.
Jayatīrtha: Well, his point is... As you know, he made that unauthorized loan from BBT when he left, for five thousand dollars. And he has to pay it back at three hundred dollars per month. So after he makes...
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (aside:) Stop that also. (break) ...kṛpana bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ, yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). This gṛhastha life is a concession for sex life. Otherwise, there is no need of gṛhastha life. But everything can be used to make the best use of a bad bargain. That is another thing. Actually, to become free from all responsibility and anxieties, if one remains a brahmacārī, that is very good. That is the recommendation of śāstra. But if you cannot... Because the material world is going on under sex impulse, by nature the sex impulse is there. He will agitate you. But if you can control by becoming a rigid brahmacārī, that is better. But it is difficult. Therefore this concession is given. But what is this concession? The concession is sex life. That's all. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. It is an itching sensation. And after satisfying the itching sensation, there are so many responsibilities and trouble. But tṛpyanti neha kṛpanāḥ. Those who are kṛpanāḥ, does not know how to utilize this life...
Prabhupāda: ...otherwise, we recommend everyone become sannyāsa. What is the use of not becoming? (all laugh) We are giving up this world. We are preparing ourself for entering into the family of Kṛṣṇa. So why should we be very much anxious to maintain this family. So actually... Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says; "I'm not a sannyāsī. I'm not a sannyāsī. I'm not a gṛhastha. I'm not a brahmacārī." These four, eight varṇāśrama-dharma is unnecessary for spiritually. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was speaking with Rāmānanda Rāya... You'll find in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya... As soon as he suggested varṇāśrama-dharma, Rāmaṇanda Rāya, immediately Caitanya Mahāprabhu: "It is not very important. If you know better than this, you go on." He did not give any, much stress on this varṇāśrama-dharma. But for regulated life, that is required. And ultimately, it is not required. So it is not recommended for ordinary persons. But this is also unnecessary.
Prabhupāda: Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī (BG 6.1). Anāśritaḥ kar... Everyone is expecting some good result for his sense gratification. That is āśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ. He has taken the shelter of good result. But one who does not take shelter of the result of activities... It is my duty. Karyam. Karyam means "It is my duty. Doesn't matter what is the result. I must do it sincerely to my best capacity. Then I don't care for the result. Result is in Kṛṣṇa's hand." Karyam: "It is my duty. My Guru Mahārāja said it, so it is my duty. It doesn't matter whether it is successful or not successful. That depends on Kṛṣṇa." In this way, anyone, if he works, then he is a sannyāsī. Not the dress, but the attitude of working. Yes, that is sannyāsa. Karyam: "It is my duty." Sa sannyāsī ca yogī ca. He is yogi, first-class yogi. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna officially, he did not take sannyāsa. He was a gṛhastha, soldier. But when he took it very seriously, karyam—"Kṛṣṇa wants this fight. Never mind I have to kill my relatives. I must do it"—that is sannyāsa.
Brahmānanda: "Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti, we must adopt the whole varṇa and āśramas as they are recommended in all the śāstras. If you give up these directions of the śāstras, that is neither dharma nor saṁsṛti, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the Bhagavad-gītā that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsī must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of bhāratīya sanskṛiti."
Prabhupāda: If you give up this varṇāśrama-dharma, then where is your bhāratīya sanskṛiti? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is bhāratīya sanskṛiti? Then?
Prabhupāda: If you give up this varṇāśrama-dharma, then where is your bhāratīya sanskṛiti? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is bhāratīya sanskṛiti? Then?
Brahmānanda: "Six: Injunctions of śāstras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. So the mutual relationship of dharma and politics in the light of our history and tradition can only be revived when we observe the system of varṇāśrama. It is actually like this: the brāhmaṇa is like the head, and the kṣatriya is like the arms, the vaiśya is the stomach or the abdomen, and the śūdra is like the legs. Similarly, spiritually, the brahmacārī is the trained-up disciple, the gṛhastha is the trained-up householder, the vānaprastha is experienced as a retired gentleman, and the sannyāsī is completely in the renounced order of life for spiritual advancement. There is no question of the head being in an exalted position without the cooperation of the leg. When there is a pin-prick in some part of the leg, the head immediately takes it very seriously and takes out the thorn in some part of the leg.
Prabhupāda: There is no law; it is all lusty desire. All law or no law, these are all nonsense. The śāstra has... It is lusty desire, that's all. Everyone wants to fulfill a lusty desires. So unless one is not in the modes of goodness or transcendental, everyone will like. That is the material world, rajas-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvaḥ kāma-lobhadayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). It is all discussed in the śāstra. Just like I am hungry man. There is foodstuff. I want to eat it. So if I take by force, that is illegal, and if I pay for it, then it is legal. But I am the hungry man, I want it. This is going on. Everyone is lusty. Therefore they say "legalized prostitution." They want it. So marriage is something legalized, that's all. The passion and the desire is the same, either married or not married. So this Vedic law says, "Better married. Then you will be controlled." Married life... So he will not be so lusty as without married life. So the gṛhastha life is a concession-same lusty desire under rules and regulation. That's all. That is our higher... (?) Without married life he will commit rapes in so many ways, so better let him be satisfied with one, both the man and woman, and make progress in spiritual life. That is concession.
Dr. Copeland: When you do the translations...
Prabhupāda: I have all translated during these ten years. I translated, began translating from 1968, or '9, I was publishing that Back to Godhead paper even from my gṛhastha life, from 1944.
Dr. Copeland: And when you do do the translation...
Prabhupāda: Then I began translating from 1968 or '69. And I published my first book in 1962. Then next was in 1964. And then the third volume was published in 1965. And then I came to America. And then I translated all these books, whatever you see, about fifty books. This is about eleven hundred pages. Other books are not less than four hundred pages.
Devotee: We can show them this verse.
Prabhupāda: Well, there are many verses. When one is qualified, he is no longer demon. (break) ...big, big sannyāsīs. So I was a gṛhastha, they are now saying, "How this gṛhastha is doing? He was a gṛhastha. He never lived with us." They are saying in that way. (break) Tree has spread the roots solid standing. Just see how carefully.
Madhudviṣa: In the courtyard back at the temple I would like to grow one nim tree. Would that be nice?
Prabhupāda: Nim tree, how you can get?
Madhudviṣa: I think we can grow. Get some seed from India.
Prabhupāda: And how we are finding pleasure in chanting and dancing? It is a practice.
Devotee: No, I mean sex life.
Prabhupāda: Sex life we are not stopping. But sex life allowed only to the gṛhasthas, householder, restricted. Not illicit sex. We are not stopping sex life. Sex life is required. But under rules. And if you enjoy illicit sex, then the whole society is spoiled. You make the innocent girls spoiled. And they have no other business than prostitution. That means you put the society into chaotic condition. The young girls they become cheap, you enjoy, then you become irresponsible. You have no family encumbrances, and you do not know how to maintain the family. That is the position. What is this welfare? Because the young boys enjoy the young girls and they get children, the government has to support.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mostly the bachelor daddy. They pose themself as bachelor, but they are having at least three times sex with contraceptive method, you see. This is going on. And they are accepted as standard. And if you want to reform it, then it is (indistinct). The whole basic wrong is they have become godless animals, that's all. The only method is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other second method. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. You cannot raise anybody to high qualities unless he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is a subtle fact. And example is there. Because some of them have taken to Kṛṣṇa conscious they are ideal. All others, what is the value? He is a leader, and he says, "Yes, illicit sex is all right. We are enjoying by contraceptive method." If the leaders do something wrong, the others will follow. (to devotee:) I think you should continue as a gṛhastha for the time being.
Prabhupāda: Unless you are ripe old age. At least up to fifty years. What is your age now?
Devotee: Um, twenty-eight.
Prabhupāda: Twenty-eight. So up to fifty years you remain gṛhastha and take care of wife, children. Work honestly and attend the... You prove an ideal gṛhastha. That will be very nice. Don't change your mind.
Devotee: So they'll be able to take care of the situation there by themselves?
Devotee: In Hong Kong?
Prabhupāda: They are taking. Pañca-draviḍa Mahārāja is there. He is a sannyāsī. That is all right. You don't change your mind. You are already trained up about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so you try to become an ideal householder in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because we are not rejecting householder. We are accepting everyone. Gṛhe vā thāke hā gaurāṅga bole ḍāke. Anyone, either he remains as a sannyāsī in the forest or he remains a gṛhastha at home, if he is cultivating this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, then he is all right. That is the verdict. So now you are living as gṛhastha. Live as an ideal gṛhastha, don't change your mind. Be fixed up. They are all gṛhasthas, all these Pañca-tattva, you see? Advaita Prabhu was a gṛhastha. He did not take sannyāsa. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also was married. Nityānanda Prabhu was gṛhastha. They were all gṛhasthas, but ideal gṛhastha. So you become an ideal gṛhastha. That also wanted.
Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha is also called āśrama, gṛhastha-āśrama. As sannyāsa is called āśrama, similarly gṛhastha is called āśrama. Anywhere cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is going on, that is āśrama. Now it depends on my personal convenience either I remain as gṛhastha or I be a sannyāsī. But when you have accepted the gṛhastha life, so that's all right. Remain at least for fifty years. Then you can give up when your children are grown up. You just give them education, settle them, then you can leave home. That is gṛhastha-āśrama. So, we shall... That's all. (end)
Prabhupāda: If I am representative of Kṛṣṇa, then I must be the most powerful. Kṛṣṇa has got..., all omnipotent. (laughs) Most powerful, the most my Godbrothers. That is my credit. They are thinking like that, "This man became most powerful than all of us. (Still laughing) He was a gṛhastha." They used to say all the gṛhasthas, paca-gṛhastha. Paca means decomposed. What Bon Mahārāja is doing now?
Satsvarūpa: I don't know up to date. I just know a few weeks ago he was in Canada.
Brahmānanda: When our devotees go to see a professor after Bon Mahārāja has spoken with him, the professors don't want to take our books. They make complaints that our books are too sectarian, they're not scholarly, they're not..., in this way.
Prabhupāda: He is making that poison.
Brahmānanda: Yeah, he is giving some propaganda.
Devotee (1): In Denver here we have many businesses going on for you. And we are out engaging karmīs in helping us retrieve lakṣmī. We are going to them for lakṣmī in so many ways. How is it that this engages them, or does it engage them in Kṛṣṇa's service? Do they make any benefit?
Prabhupāda: What they are doing by doing business? They are gṛhasthas doing business?
Brahmānanda: They are outsiders, karmīs, they manufacture jewelry and some shirts, for which they get a salary.
Devotee (1): Yes, but the devotees are maintaining the business. And I myself go out and talk to rascals all day long, demons, mlecchas. Am I engaging them in Kṛṣṇa's service by taking lakṣmī?
Prabhupāda: What you are doing with the money?
Prabhupāda: How they can be? They are not trained up. They are not trained up from the very beginning. For being trained up, there is another four divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. These are the training divisions. So for the first-class, second-class, third-class, all the students, they are trained up as brahmacārī, student life. Brahmacārī means celibacy, live under the direction of the teacher and accept all kinds of hardship under the teacher's or spiritual master direction. Children, they can easily take it. If a child, a small child, I ask him, "My dear child, you take my shoes and keep it there," he will immediately agree. He has no sense, "Oh, he is asking me to take his shoes." He will immediately agree. Even he is very rich man's son. So this life is advised that a student live just like a menial servant of the teacher or the spiritual master. And they agree. We have got good instances.
Prabhupāda: Dedicate your life. If you think that you are family man, you cannot dedicate twenty-four hours, then earn money and give it to Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement as other family men, they are earning money. Eh? Is it not? You can earn. In America there is good facility for earning money. They want that you work and take money. So earn money as gṛhastha and give it to Kṛṣṇa. Prāṇair arthair. If you cannot earn money, then use your intelligence. There are so many intellectual work: publication, going to this officer, that officer. You, intellectually you try. And vācā, by words. If you cannot do anything, go anyone, anywhere and say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just offer your obeisances." Finished. So where is the scarcity? You can serve Kṛṣṇa in any capacity-provided you want to serve. And if you want to engage Kṛṣṇa for your service, that is blunder. Then it is blunder. You cannot engage Kṛṣṇa to your service. The everyone is trying to engage Kṛṣṇa for his service. They are going to the church, "O Kṛṣṇa, give us our daily bread," that "You serve me. You give us our daily bread and serve me." And our proposition is, Yaśodāmayī, "Kṛṣṇa, You are playing all day. Come on!
Prabhupāda: Nowadays may be different, but I am speaking of the Vedic ideas, that woman in all circumstances, unless the husband is crazy or something like that, mad, or..., in every case the instance is that wife is faithful and subservient to the husband. That is the Vedic culture. Even the husband goes out of home, vānaprastha, the wife also goes with him. When he takes sannyāsa, at that time there is no accompaniment of wife. Otherwise in gṛhastha life and even vānaprastha life, the wife is constant companion and subservient. That is the history of Vedic culture. History, Gāndhārī, because her husband was blind, so when the marriage settlement was done, she was not blind, but she voluntarily became blind by wrapping cloth.
Devotee (2): She remained with the cloth wrapped for her whole life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. When I was twenty-five years old I met him first. On the first meeting he ordered me to this. So at that time I was married man. I had two children. So I thought, "I shall do it later on." But I was trying to get out of family life. It took some time. But I was trying my best to carry out his order. In 1944 I started magazine, Back to Godhead, when I was gṛhastha. Then I started writing books in 1958 or '59. In this way in 1965 I came to your country.
Woman: You have said that you are very small and that you are not God, and yet it appears to me as an outsider that the devotees treat you as if you were God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is devotee's duty. Just like a government officer. Personally he is not very important, but so long he executes government order, he should be respected as government. That is the way. Even a ordinary policeman comes, you have to respect him because he is government man. But that does not mean he is government. He is respected. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. If that man thinks that "I have become government. People are respecting me," then he is foolish. So... But it is the etiquette. If the government man comes, you should respect him as government.
Nityānanda: This combination of a temple in the city where they can preach and bring people out to their farm is very good.
Prabhupāda: ...healthy place.
Nityānanda: So mostly gṛhasthas should stay on the farms, or brahmacārīs also?
Prabhupāda: No, brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs especially they should preach. And gṛhasthas may produce necessities. They also preach, preaching everyone. Especially for brahmacārī and sannyāsī. (end)
Prabhupāda: That is time for punishment. They should build up their character, śamaḥ, damaḥ, fully controlled. When they like, they become gṛhasthas. Otherwise they are controlled. That is brāhmaṇa. For brāhmaṇa it is not compulsory to marry. Kṣatriyas may marry more than one wife. They can take. So all girls must be married. That is... They must...They must have one husband, even the husband has got fifty wives. Then the problem of girls' marriage will be solved. And as soon as one girl is pregnant, she should be separated.
Hṛdayānanda: From the husband.
Prabhupāda: At least for one and half years.
Prabhupāda: Responsibility is that you have got this human form of life. Realize God. This is your responsibility. Otherwise you are finished. Three words: "You have got this human form of life. Your only responsibility is to understand God. This is your responsibility." That is Vedic culture. For understanding God, many, many kings, many, many saints, they left everything and went to the forest to realize God. That is Vedic culture. Bhārata Mahārāja, under whose name India is called Bhāratavarṣa, he was the emperor of this planet, and at the age of twenty-four years he left everything to realize God. This is Vedic culture. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His position was very, very nice, as a gṛhastha—a nice beautiful wife, affectionate mother, good influence, brāhmaṇa family, learned scholar, everything first class. He left everything just to show us. He was God Himself, but to set the example, tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita-rajya-lakṣmīm (SB 11.5.34). He gave up a kingdom of fortune which is aspired by the demigods. Such a nice life, such a nice family, but He gave up. Tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīm dharmistha arya... (SB 11.5.34).
Prabhupāda: The solution is there. Take it. Take Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dhanañjaya: They're so much implicated by sex life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gradually they'll become ... understand that this is not good. Therefore gṛhastha āśrama is allowed under rules and regulation. The purpose is to restrict sex life.
Brahmānanda: The wife of the President, she recently said that sex life before marriage is good because it will reduce the divorce rate.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If everyone is prostitute then where is the question of divorce? (laughter)
Nitāi: There's also no question of marriage.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is going on. (end)
Prabhupāda: The word is the same, śās. From śās, śisya. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāsana. These are. So sometimes by force, sometimes by voluntarily... So just like guru-śisya. The guru, he gives enlightenment, and śisya voluntarily accepts. That is guru-śisya. Similarly śāstra means weapon: "If you don't follow, then I shall cut your throat." Similarly śāstra. So śāstra says that "Now you must leave your family life." That is called vānaprastha. So that is not being carried out, although the śāstra injunction is there. Brahmacari, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So brahmacārī is the beginning of life, how to become controlled life. Then he is allowed the concession for sense gratification. This is gṛhastha. Then śāstra says, "Now you have done up to fifty years. Now get out." But nobody is following. They are not prepared to get out unless death forces to get out. That Kṛṣṇa does. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). He is not willing. He has got attachment. He doesn't want. Then, at last, Kṛṣṇa comes as death: "Now get out." Kick out.
Prabhupāda: Even there is some fault, it doesn't matter, but you satisfy Kṛṣṇa. Then it is perfect." Just like Arjuna did. The fighting is not good business, but he satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Therefore by fighting, he became a great devotee-sva-karmaṇā. He did not leave his position as a kṣatriya, as a gṛhastha, but he... Karisye vacanam tava: (BG 18.73) "Yes. In spite of my not being inclined to fight, because You are asking, I'll do it." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi) (break) You remain in your place, but you have your ears to hear Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be perfect. What is the difficulty? You remain as a doctor. You remain as a pleader. You remain whatever you like. It doesn't matter. But engage your aural reception to the words of Kṛṣṇa. Then you become perfect. What is the difficulty? Simply sit down and hear what Kṛṣṇa says, Bhagavad-gītā. That's all. And if you say that "I simply hear," and if you do not act, no, you'll act because as you go on hearing, your heart will be purified. Then you will be inclined to hear..., er, act.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?
Indian man (1): Do you believe?
Prabhupāda: Why not? There are many gṛhastha devotees. Here is gṛhastha devotee.
Indian man (1): Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...which you want to set up, they are available, ready-made?
Saurabha: Some of them are ready, but we need about a hundred, so I don't think there will be one hundred ready. But if the order is placed in advance, then they will...
Dr. Patel: Our culture was so built as to do work for Kṛṣṇa throughout the life from brahmācārya, gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha...
Prabhupāda: But where is the question. Unless...
Dr. Patel: But how they have forgotten this is the greatest, I mean, mystery to me. Because the sādhus voluntarily, I mean, embrace poverty?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Dr. Patel: All those, sir...
Prabhupāda: This service to Kṛṣṇa has disappeared on account of this māyāvāda philosophy.
Dr. Patel: You think so.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So, where is your son? Huh? (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: That was the case with the, this Nanesvara, Santak Nanesvara(?), that his father once became a sannyāsī, and then he came back and had a gṛhastha-āśrama with his wife before he was ordered by his guru...
Prabhupāda: That is the case with Vallabhācārya also. He became sannyāsa, then again back, guru.
Dr. Patel: The sannyāsī cannot come back.
Indian man (2): Oh, Vallabhācārya.
Dr. Patel: Vallabhācārya. No, no, Vallabhācārya's whole position is like that. So many of them, all these brāhmaṇas, they think themsevles to be... Some of them are even horrible people; still, they call them gurus.
Prabhupāda: That was formerly also. Śukrācārya: "Ācārya by semina." Śukrācārya.
Prabhupāda: ...this society. Only the important men, they can live as gṛhastha. Not that "Now I am in love with this girl and get me married and yajña and then sleep." These things should be stopped. That, that what is his name, the rascal's name, that, whom you have driven away?
Devotee (1): Srnghadi(?).
Devotee (1): Śrīnati.
Prabhupāda: Śrīnati.(?) From his face it appears that he's woman hunter. Did he talk with you?
Devotee (1): Yes.
Aksayānanda: Jaya. He bows down. He pays dandavats. He said, "You're a sannyāsī, so I must respect. I'm only a gṛhastha."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the duty.
Aksayānanda: And he is also very intelligent. He's not just doing it out of sentiment. Very nice man. Older man.
Prabhupāda: If a sannyāsī is not offered respect, the punishment is that he should fast one day. That is śāstric injunction.
Gunarnava: What is the punishment if one doesn't fast?
Prabhupāda: You must go to hell. (laughter) (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes, Cānakya Paṇḍita also advised: kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama(?). This is..., he was a politician, and still he said, kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama, and smara nityam anityada kuru punyam avoratram. This is his advise, that give up this bad association of atheist class of man. Sadhu means devotee. Durajana means nondevotee. So kalau durajana samsagyam bhaja sādhu samārgama. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that. When He was asked by one gṛhastha bhakta, "What is the duty of a Vaiṣṇava?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu immediately said, asat-saṅga tyāgī ei vaiṣṇava acāra. A Vaiṣṇava means he must give up the association of nondevotees. Then the question will be, "Who is nondevotee?" Asat-strī-saṅgī kṛṣṇa bhakta... One who is too much attached to material enjoyment. Strī-saṅgī is the basic point, and one who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he is asat-saṅga.
Lokanātha: So when they are gṛhastha, they make advancement?
Prabhupāda: Hm? That advancement is not very solid. But there is advancement; but that is not very solid.
Śrīdhara: Without sex pleasure a man and a woman would not be attracted to one another.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Attraction means that sex. There is no other. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedī sukhaṁ hi tuccham. Why they are working so hard day and night? Only for that sex pleasure. That is the psychology. There is no other happiness. Yan maithunādi gṛhamedhī sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Their happiness is based on the center of sex pleasure.
Śrīdhara: So the body of a woman only reminds of the sex pleasure.
Prabhupāda: Is there, "servant," this word is used?
Devotee: Becomes his friend.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. (break) ...stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Fifth Canto, that there are gṛhasthas, they are not attached to gṛhastha. They actually, they are attached to Kṛṣṇa, but maybe for convenience sake he remains a gṛhastha. Gṛhastha, there are two words: gṛhastha and gṛhamedhī. One who is gṛhamedhī, he is hopeless. One who is gṛhastha, that is all right. (end)