Prabhupāda: Particular incident is significant, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a brāhmaṇa and He was a sannyāsī. According to social custom He should not touch even a Muhammadan, but this Haridāsa Ṭhākura was a Muhammadan, and at his death He took the body Himself and danced, and He put him in the graveyard and distributed prasādam. And Haridāsa Ṭhākura for two, three days he was feeling not well. Because he was Muhammadan he did not enter the temple of Jagannātha temple. Because the Hindus were very strict. He was devotee, he never mind. Why he should create some row? So Caitanya Mahāprabhu appreciated his behavior that he did not want to create any... Because he has become devotee. Forcibly he was not going to the temple. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself was daily coming and seeing him. While going to take bath in the sea, He'll first of all see Haridāsa. "Haridāsa? What you are doing?" Haridāsa will offer his respect and He will sit and talk for some time. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu will go to take His bath. In this way, one day when He came He saw Haridāsa not feeling very well. "Haridāsa? How is your health?" "Yes Sir, it is not very... After all, it is body." Then the third day He saw that Haridāsa is going to leave his body today. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him, "Haridāsa, what do you desire?" Both of them could understand. Haridāsa said that "This is my last stage. If You kindly stand before me." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu stood before him and he left his body.
Force (Conversations 1967 - 1975)
Expressions researched:
"force"
|"forced"
|"forceful"
|"forcefully"
|"forcely"
|"forcibly"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1967 Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Interviewer: I notice that most of your followers, at least in this temple, are young, like in the college age or in the teenage. Is it because Kṛṣṇa doesn't attract the older generation, I mean, yourself excluded?
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa attracts everyone. Just like magnetic stone attracts iron. But the iron is covered with too much muddy things—the magnetic force does not work. This younger generation, they are not too much dirty; therefore they are very easily attracted. You see? It is like a magnetic force. The same example, that magnetic force attracts iron. That is natural. But if the iron is too much rusty and covered with muddy things, then it does not act. So older generation means they are convinced in some way. They cannot accept any new thing. You see? They are in the last stage of life. Whatever they have understood, they cannot forget. But younger generation, they have got capacity to take new things. Just like nobody goes... No old man goes to school because they are unable to receive education. But younger generation, they go. So there is a age to receive. So this age is recipient. Therefore naturally—it is nice thing—they are receiving.
Prabhupāda: Same principle as I told you, faith. One of my friend, he dragged me forcibly to my spiritual master. And when I talked with my spiritual master, I was induced. And since then, the seedling began.
Prabhupāda: She likes this... (microphone noise) But also marriage problem, one must have a choice. So if we force something, that is not (chuckling) good. At least, in your country it is not... Of course, in your country, the husband...the boys and girls are, I mean to say, not major, whatever the parents force, that is another thing. When the boys and girls are grown up, it is not possible. Just like in India, there was svayaṁvara. Svayaṁvara means the girl will select her own bridegroom. That was allowed to princess. Princess, highly qualified princess. So the father would make a challenge, that "This is the condition.
Prabhupāda: Of course, so long we have got this material body, some material consideration must be there. (chuckles) That is not possible to avoid completely.
Devotee (1): They shouldn't force her to get married, though. That was kind of a bad choice that they gave her, "Either get married or don't come on saṅkīrtana." You can't force somebody.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that wasn't the situation. It was not that choice.
Devotee (1): What? You can't... I mean to say that you can't force somebody to get married. You know. That isn't proper.
Prabhupāda: There was no force. There was no force. Only proposal. That's all. When it was proposed before me, I also said, "It depends on the choice." So anyway, go on with your work, saṅkīrtana movement you have started. It is very nice. And it is being responded. So increase it. If simply brahmacārīs can do it, that is best.
Janārdana: If they pay, then they will have to get something out of it. They will force themselves to get something out of it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone paid. The Massachusetts Technical College and Eastern University. Eastern University there is...?
Janārdana: I think so.
Prabhupāda: Then Harvard University and Boston University, and one church. They have paid, yes. And one church, Arlington Church, in that church... I think you were present there? Arlington Church?
Govinda dasi: Unitarian?
Prabhupāda: No. You have not been in Boston. Some girls from temple, they were present.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: To become unconscious.
Student (2): ...that God, the force who made everything and more in this (inaudible)..., in making this, (inaudible)...playing a game. And you play a game by playing hide and seek. The whole point of the game is that someone is hidden from you.
Prabhupāda: There is nothing hide and seek here. It is all open.
Prabhupāda: Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was finance minister in the government of Nawab Hussain Shah in Bengal. But when Lord Caitanya started His movement, he was captivated and he resigned his service, government service and joined Him. And he wrote immense literature, Gosvāmīs. And that Desai was talking that Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, he says, rūpa-raghunātha-pade haibe ākuti kabe hāma bujhaba se yugala-pīriti: conjugal love of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, one can understand when they go through the literatures presented by these Gosvāmīs. So his first book is Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Devotion of, Nectar of Devotion. That is very authorized book. Quotation from various Vedic literature about Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and the different stages of relationship with Kṛṣṇa, śānta-rasa, dāsya-rasa, admiration. God is Great. This is also one stage, appreciating the greatness of God. Then further development, dāsya-rasa, willing to serve. Oh! God is so great, and I must serve service because everyone of us are serving somebody. So why not serve the Supreme? Nobody is free from service because we are constitutionally the servant. Either we become the servant of the Great or māyā. Just like in any condition of our lives, we have to abide by the laws of the state. If he says that we don't abide then come to prisonhouse. You will be forced. Similarly, māyā and Kṛṣṇa. If we don't abide by Kṛṣṇa, then come to māyā. He cannot be free. That is not our position. Freedom is frustration.
Allen Ginsberg: But what do you do when different religious groups claim to be the center? What do you do when different religious groups...
Prabhupāda: No, we welcome every religion. We don't decry any religion. Our point is the love of Godhead. Or Kṛṣṇa is love, all-attractive. So we want to be attracted by Kṛṣṇa. Just like a magnetic force and iron. Unless iron is rusty, it is automatically attracted by the magnetic force. Similarly, we are contaminated by material coverings. So we are trying to make it rustless so that immediately we shall be attracted. This is the program. Kṛṣṇa is all-attractive. That is a fact. And we are attracted. But being covered with this rust, we are, instead of being attracted by Kṛṣṇa, we are being attracted by māyā. This is our whole program. So our central program is how to love Kṛṣṇa, or how to love God. So we want to see... That is the Bhāgavata definition, that how much you have enhanced your love of God. You call Kṛṣṇa or something else, that doesn't matter. Phalena paricīyate. The result. Your religious principle, what is the result? Are you enhancing your love for God or dog? That we want to see. If you are enhancing your love for God, it is all right. We don't say anything. But if... People should learn how to love. That is the perfection of life. That we are teaching.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: And there is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura-Prārthanā. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tare tyāge: "One who takes āśraya, shelter of a devotee, Kṛṣṇa does not give him up. Kṛṣṇa accepts him." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ... **. Because if that person who is giving shelter, if he's pleased, Kṛṣṇa is immediately... If he recommends a fool, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, here is a devotee," Kṛṣṇa will accept immediately. It doesn't matter whether he's a fool or rascal. Because he is recommended by representative, he will be accepted. Yasya pra... This is the meaning of yasya prasādad bhagavat-pra... Without his recommendation there is no entry in Kṛṣṇa's kingdom. Yasya-prasādad na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. If he displeases Kṛṣṇa's representative he has no entrance to the Kṛṣṇa's kingdom, however learned he may be or whatever he may be. Immediately rejected. In a business office, suppose a secretary is there. A clerk does not accept the order of the secretary. Immediately he should be dismissed. In my personal experience, when I was young manager in a big chemical concern, one correspondent clerk, he disobeyed me. I reported to the head boss. He immediately came and he said, "Get out immediately from the office." And he wanted to plead in so many ways. Said, "No, I don't want. If you don't go out, then I shall call my doorman. He will forcibly get you out. Get out." I was sorry because this man is dismissed immediately, but he took. Disobedient... "Obedience is first discipline." So if Kṛṣṇa's representative is disobeyed—"Get out immediately." Kṛṣṇa is very strict.
Prabhupāda: Now we are with Sambhu in Bombay. As soon as the aeroplane would come on top of the house it is just like thunderbolt. Yes. At least I was feeling like that. Vajrapa. You see? So this is called illusion. We are creating a civilization which is so much painful, but we are thinking that we are advanced. This is illusion. We are creating simply problems, and still, we are thinking that we are advanced. And Bhāgavata says that there is no problem. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ (SB 1.5.18). You simply try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And then how I shall live? That, the answer, is tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham. Just like you don't aspire for miseries, but it comes upon you, it is forced upon you, similarly, happiness also will be forced upon you, whatever you are destined to receive. So don't try for happiness or discarding distress. That will go on. You simply try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which, without your trying, it will never be fulfilled. You have to voluntarily try for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, revive it. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You do it—because you have to do it. Kṛṣṇa can force you to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Interviewer: But before... When you came here... Now you came here in the middle sixties, less than a decade ago. What was it? This is what I'm trying to find out from you. What was the motivating force behind your coming to the United States?
Prabhupāda: That is already explained. That is already explained. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted that this propaganda should be made all over the world and they will accept. So my Guru Mahārāja said that "You go and try to do this." So I came with this purpose. And it is happening.
Interviewer: But before, when you came here... Now you came here in the middle '60s, less than a decade ago. What, what was it—this is why I'm trying to find out from you. What was the motivating force behind your coming to the United States?
Prabhupāda: That is already explained. That is already explained. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted that this propaganda should be made all over the world. And they will accept. So my Guru Maharaja said that "You go and try to do this," so I came with this purpose, and it is happening.
Sister Mary: It's a matter of your attitude.
Prabhupāda: Not attitude. Development of my God consciousness. Attitude may be artificial. But it is actual development of God consciousness. God consciousness is there in everybody. It requires simply to be developed. Just like a child. A child has got love within her, within his heart. But when he is young, it develops. It develops. And the girl, boy, automatically becomes attached because that propensity has developed. It is not an artificial thing. It was already there. It has to be developed. So God consciousness is there in everyone's heart. Otherwise, how these boys are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Unless Kṛṣṇa was there within. Artificially you cannot force them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours.
Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras.
Reporter: That's right, sir, that is we are very poor specimens. I mean every...
Prabhupāda: No. By force you are trying to forget Kṛṣṇa, that's all.
Reporter: Sir, I beg your pardon, sir. We are very poor specimens.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Reporter: If, as you said, sir, we are all, everybody is Kṛṣṇa conscious in India, still I can say we are to (indistinct) problems here. We are very poor specimens. I won't talk in all other...
Prabhupāda: But you do... Don't you... You have not heard Kṛṣṇa's name?
Reporter: We have heard...
Prabhupāda: No, no. You have not heard Kṛṣṇa's name? Then why you are not Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Reporter: We are conscious of the Kṛṣṇa's existence.
Prabhupāda: Outside..., out of India they ask us this question, that "In India, how many Kṛṣṇa conscious?" Every Indian is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Every Indian is Kṛṣṇa conscious. But he's trying to forget by artificial means.
Prabhupāda: According to time... Deśa-kāla-pātra. That kind of forceful, does not act very nicely. One should know the science, but the class of men to whom Jesus Christ said, they are not very much advanced. Under the circumstances, the fearfulness of hell is quite appropriate for them. Actually, one who does not go back to home, back to Godhead, he is put into the hellish condition of life. That is fearfulness, but we are so blunt that we do not take care. It is fearful. Just like Prahlāda Maharaja said that "Nṛsiṁha-deva, I am not afraid of your this fierce feature of Narasiṁha, but I am very much afraid of this materialistic way of life."
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: How it can be?
Bob: If you... When one studies science, one finds general tendencies of nature, and these general tendencies of nature point to a controlling force.
Prabhupāda: That I was explaining the other day. Where? In Madras, or where? "Who has supplied these chemicals?"
Śyāmasundara: Ah, in Madras.
Prabhupāda: I asked one chemist that according to chemical formula, hydrogen and oxygen mixed, it becomes water. Is it not?
Bob: That's true.
Śyāmasundara: Even if you don't want to practice austerity, you must. You are forced to.
Prabhupāda: No, because... You have got... You have surrendered to your spiritual master. His order is final. So even if you don't like, you have to do it. To please me. Even you don't like. Nobody likes to fast, but spiritual master says, "Today is fasting," so what can be done? (laughter) This is austerity. And disciple means who has voluntarily agreed to be disciplined by the spiritual master. That is austerity. (Loudspeaker in background is very loud.)
Śyāmasundara: Say, like our parents or many people in the material world, completely addicted to material life. They don't want to follow any austerities, uncomfortable, but still they must. By nature they're forced to austerities.
Prabhupāda: That is forced austerity; that is not good. Voluntary austerity will help.
Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) ...if you don't undergo voluntary austerity, you must be forced to undergo...
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) That is the difference between man and animal. Animal cannot accept austerity. But man can accept austerity. That is the difference between. Just like there is a nice foodstuff in a confectioner's shop. So a man wants to eat it, but he sees that he has no money. So he can restrain. But an animal, cow comes, immediately he pushes his mouth in that. You can beat him with stick, it will tolerate, but it will do that. Therefore, animal cannot undergo austerity. (Someone else speaks inaudibly about volume of loudspeakers) Yes, yes, reduce. (break) Our austerity is very nice. We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance, and Kṛṣṇa sends nice foodstuff, we eat. That's all. Why your people are not agreeable to such kind of austerities? Chanting, dancing, and eating nicely? (indistinct) I see austerity, call my mother.
Bob: ...does he still get sick?
Prabhupāda: No. Even if he gets sick, that is very temporary. Just like this fan is moving. If you disconnect with the electric power, then the fan will move for a moment. That movement is not due to the electric current. That is force. What is called physically, this...
Śyāmasundara: Momentum.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Śyāmasundara: Momentum.
Prabhupāda: Momentum. But as soon as he stops, no more movement. Similarly, a devotee who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, even he's found that he's suffering from material consequences, that is temporary. Therefore a devotee does not take any material miseries as misery. He takes as Kṛṣṇa's, God's, mercy.
Devotee: Whether the British should have been forcibly removed from India.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is ordinary duty. If you encroach upon my freedom, I have the right to kill you. That is recommended. That is clearly stated in the śāstras. If anyone sets fire in another's house, if anyone kidnaps his wife, if anyone takes his money—so many list—he is to be killed. There is no question. He can be killed immediately.
Prabhupāda: He's gone to Delhi?
Dr. Kapoor: He was trying to force me...
Guru dāsa: Bombay, I think.
Dr. Kapoor: ...force the professorship of his college upon me.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Kapoor: When I came here after my retirement...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I know that. (break) If you want, you can come sometime to European countries to our different branches.
Bhūrijana: South China Morning Paper.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So the article is nice. So one thing is that we are simply interested for a temporary object, but we are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). We do not die. We simply change bodies. Just like these children, they are changing bodies from babyhood to childhood, from childhood to youthhood, the changing bodies. The final change is called death. That means, final change means, giving up this body, we accept again another babyhood body, again begin. This is going on. And this is called māyār bośe, jāccho bhese. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). We are being washed away by the waves of māyā. We are forced to accept a certain type of body, again give it up, again forced to, under 8,400,000 species of life. We do not know, next life what kind of body we are going to get. People should be careful about this.
Prabhupāda: Chanting? Dancing? These are our programs. Class, little a-b-c-d, no?
Devotee (6): But no force, yes?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (6): They, they... She was questioning me about force, that there should... I told her that, that your instruction to us was that no...
Prabhupāda: Force?
Devotee (6): ...there should not be force ever.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hitting, hitting the children.
Devotee (6): Or forcing them to do activities. That no..., that should not be done.
Devotee (4): Forcing the children to do the activities.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: To use force. Hitting them.
Devotee (6): Or hitting them.
Prabhupāda: Not hitting. By otherwise engage.
Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals. They do not have clear eyesight, clear insight. They do not know whether they are degrading or developing. Just like the flies, with great force they will go into the fire. They think they are making progress, they are going to the light. They think; otherwise how they are going? Such kind of advancement. They are going to die, be annihilated, and they still, "Oh, we are going force, by force we are going to the light. Here is darkness, there is light." This is their philosophy. Just like a mad driver drinking drives recklessly to die, that's all. But he is thinking, "Oh, I am going with so much great speed." He does not know that he is going to die after few minutes. And that is their development.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was my intimate friend. So in their house, old Tīrtha Mahārāja went to beg some alms—they are very rich man. So, he informed me that "One nice sannyāsī came to our house," and he was invited, "in Ultadanga there is Gauḍīya Maṭha, so he has invited me. I wish to go there. Why don't you come? Let us go together." He was my very intimate friend. So at that time I was a little pessimistic (?), "I know all these sādhus there, I am not going." So he forced me, "Oh, why not come? Let us go." "All right, let us go." So I went to see His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura in 1922 in that Ultadanga building, and that time Prabhupāda was sitting on the roof. There was small house (indistinct) room, and we were welcome, because they thought Naren Mullik was very rich man and he has contributed some money.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: First appearance of Back to Godhead (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes, 1944. I think you were at that time at my house. Yes. So, somehow or other, this intention for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahāprabhu increased and the other side decreased. Viraktir anyatra syāt. But I was not disinclined, but Kṛṣṇa forced me that you must give up. (chuckles) And these thing is known better to Śrīdhara Mahārāja, how it decreased, decreased, decreased, then almost it become nil, and then I left home in 1950. Whatever was there, "All right, you do whatever you like." In 1954, four years I remained as vānaprastha, (indistinct) four years, from 1950 to 1959.
Brahmānanda: Gāndhārī, wife of Dhṛtarāṣṭra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So later on such devoted wife was lacking. So the system was, some cases, they were forced to die. So these things have been elaborately explained in the, that book, and Britishers stopped it. So the Indians were uncivilized. Britishers made them civilized. Everything was misinterpreted.
Prabhupāda: Finished. Everyone in the United Nations pressed on them: "Why you are colonizing? Why you are occupying so much land? You give up." They were obliged. And there was great national movement of Gandhi. So all United Nations pressed that: "They're wanting to avoid you. Why you are, by force, staying there?" Still, they would not go. But when the soldiers began to join the national movement, they gave it up. "Now we cannot rule it." How very nasty! For their political power, they did so many heinous activities in India. That's a great history. For selling their cotton goods, India's weavers were cut this finger so that they cannot weave. This is there in the history.
Prabhupāda: He wanted a certain type of life. So nature gives him. "All right, take this body." He desires in a certain way, means he's associating with the quality of nature in a method, and according to that association, he's getting a particular type of body. Mind, mind is the creative force. Thinking. Thinking, feeling, willing. These are the psychological functions. So, first of all, thinking. Then he develops to work. And it is work you get a particular type of situation. (Break) One enters into the body of a pig. Then he'll have to go under the evolutionary process. Just like if you, if you are on the topmost staircase. Somehow or other you fall down. Then again you have to go, step by step. This is the... The steps are always there. Not that the steps are created for you. No. The steps are already there.
Prabhupāda: But that is not advancement. That is wasting time. Suppose primitive man, he has got also sensual engagement. Does the primitive man has no sex life? He has got his woman. He has got sex life. The dog has got sex life. The cat has got sex life. You have got sex life. And because you have your sex life nicely dressed, you are advanced? This is foolishness. We have to see the result. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca. These four things, eating, sleeping, sex life and defence, even you'll find in the birds and beasts. And you are, if you are engaged in these four things, in so-called scientific way, then where is your advancement? When death will come, your science will not save you. As the bird will not be saved, you'll not be saved. Then where is your advancement? You are going on the motor car, say, twenty miles. One bird can fly fifty miles. Even he's more expert. I have seen in the ship, the skylark they go equal speed. The ship is running on, twenty-five miles speed or thirty miles. They're going. So where is your expert? By nature, it is expert. Just like these dogs, they are jumping with great force in the ocean and they'll come back; similarly you also go with your surf, and again come back.
Prabhupāda: That means you are struggling. That means you are in miserable condition. So why you are put into miserable condition? Why do they not ask this question? This is intelligence. You are submitting. You are trying to get out of the miserable condition, but you are unable. You are submitting. Therefore nature is very forceful. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot surpass. It is not possible. Then the next question will be: "How we can surpass?" That is real inquiry.
Prabhupāda: The child is sent to school just for teaching him how to think correctly. Otherwise, what is the use of sending him to school? He can think at home. Why they are sent to school? To learn how to think. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (pause) This is thinking, when you question that: "I want to become happy. Why I am not happy?" This is thinking. Everyone wants to become happy, but nature's process is to obstruct his happiness. So one should think: "Why this is position? I want to live. Why, by laws of nature, I am put to death? I must die? This is against my wish, against my desire." This is thinking. So how to get out of it? This is real thinking. I don't want something, but something is forced upon me, and why it is so? When this "Why?" question will come to me, that is real thinking. Where is that thinking? These rascals, where is that thinking? How to check death, how to check disease, how to check old age. Where is that thinking? Where is that scientist? Who is making research how to stop death, who is making research how to stop disease? You can manufacture medicine for the disease, but you cannot check happening of disease. That is not possible. Why it is? That is thinking. I want something, but it is being obstructed by nature. Why it is so? This "Why?" question must have come. Then his thinking is proper. That is Kena-upaniṣad, Kena.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the action of force is necessary?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Force.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is some scientists' theory, Newton's? That originally there must be some pushing. What is it? Whose theory it is? To set in motion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a compound that is called silicon carbide. That is, I think, it is very hard, as hard as diamond They make silicon carbide. I'm not sure but silicon carbide or tungsten carbide. They are used for cutting diamond. They are harder than diamond. Very strong, very hard. They combine this with carbon. It requires tremendous amounts of force to do this, high temperature, high pressure. (pause)
Prabhupāda: Anything eatables?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (Laughs) No, not so far.
Brahmānanda: Future.
Prabhupāda: "In future." But God creates so many eatables from sand. Do you know?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The smaller birds, they are eating something from sand?
Prabhupāda: No, even for man. The cantaloupe, watermelon, they are produced in sand in large quantity.
Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa had so many girlfriends. There are so many nice descriptions of embracing, kissing, but there is no pregnancy or abortion. There is no description of such things. And that is spiritual world. The attraction for young boy, young girl is there also. They are also enjoying their company. Everything is there. But there is no such thing as pregnancy and abortion. Here people do not want that, pregnancy and abortion. But they are forced to do it because there are so many inebrieties here. That thing is minus in the spiritual world. They are also attracted by the bodily features of the women. There is attraction, but they are more attracted by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Therefore this bodily attraction of woman does not affect them. Just like if you have got better attraction, you don't care for the lower attraction. The attractions are there. The body of the woman is very beautiful. But men are not so much attracted with the body of the woman. They are more attracted to Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. These are described in the Bhāgavata. Here also, practically we see, those who are attracted by the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, they are not very much attracted with the bodily features of the women. Is it not?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You believe, you believe. When, when the laws of nature will force upon you death, you must believe.
Krishna Tiwari: Oh, I'm sure I will believe.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that you are not obligation?
Krishna Tiwari: No, but that's not question of authority or anything...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is authority. We mean another...
Krishna Tiwari: ...that's a part of the nature. Difference between...,
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Krishna Tiwari: ...big difference between subjugative authority and being a part of the nature.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Subjugative, when you are forced to become old, when you are forced to become diseased, you are under subjugation.
Krishna Tiwari: Mistake. Not forced. It's automatic, it's, it's just a chain. It's a growth into. It's a factor; it's no force.
Prabhupāda: That automatic means just like you become criminal.
Prabhupāda: No vacancy, sir. So just like dog.
Revatīnandana: But they have a way to force them to work. The politicians force the scholars.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: If they don't print books, if they don't write a book every now and then and print it, get it published, they lose their tenure, their position as a professor. They must produce one book, then another book, then another book. If they don't, finished. In this way they are working all the time.
Prabhupāda: The Marwaris in India, they don't educate their son. Just like Birla. They say, "We can purchase these rascals, why we should waste our time. (laughter) So-called technicians, so-called expert computer, these are... We can purchase, why we shall waste our time."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because God has given you the intelligence, and as I said, He can withdraw. Just like the same thing: The father said, "My dear son, do like this." But he is persisting in doing otherwise.
Mr. Wadell: Yes, and for the same reason that He would not force, would therefore, for the same reason, not withdraw my intellect, having given it to me.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stated, that is stated, that is stated. Just like I... Withdraw my intellect means I have given you the intellect that "You do like this." but you are persistent, doing otherwise, "All right, as you like, you do." This is withdrawal.
Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, but one may be...
Prabhupāda: There is no force. There is no force.
Prabhupāda: No. Hospitality means the man should ask you, "What can I offer you?" That is hospitality. If he says that "I must give you tea, and you must drink it," that is not hospitality. (laughter)
Guest (8): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: No, no. Hospitality is first... According to our Indian system, (Hindi) Then you can say, "Then you can give me a little sweet water." or "You can give me little milk." That's all. Hospitality does not mean I must force you, "You must take it." That is not hospitality.
Prabhupāda: Our movement is to revive God consciousness. Just like a man is sleeping, and he has got some engagement, say, in the morning, at six o'clock. But still he's sleeping. So somebody is trying to awake him. "Get up, get up! You have got this engagement. You have..." Our movement is like that. The human society is sleeping. So we are just trying to awake them: "Get up. Get up. You have got this engagement." That is our business. It is not our manufactured business, but it is stated in the Vedic literature, uttiṣṭha jāgratā prāpta-varān nibodhata. "Now you be awakened." "Now" means "You have got this human form of life. You can now be awakened." In animal form of life there is no possibility. Therefore, in the human form of life, one should be awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. And if he sleeps, then he loses his business. This is our mission, to awaken him. And when a man sleeps, how he can awaken him? Simply by vibration of sound. The sleeping man can be awakened simply by this process, allowing the sound to enter the ear. By no other process. He's sleeping. If you show him a stick, "If you don't get up, I shall strike you," that will not be effective. Because sleeping. If you say... So many things... There are other senses. There will be no action. But only through the ear, if you cry, "Please get up! Please get up! Now your time," that will act. So our process is that, to force him to hear. Then he'll be awakened, by hearing. Therefore Vedic literature is called śruti. Śruti means it has to be received by hearing. You may be uneducated. It doesn't matter. If you simply hear from the right source, you get right knowledge. There is no need of education. Simply by hearing.
Prabhupāda: That I was speaking, that the distinction between matter and spirit: the spirit is the vital force...
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...or you call spirit soul or ātmā. That you can distinguish. As soon as the vital force is off from this body, this body is a lump of matter. Therefore even if you do not know the spirit soul, any sane man can guess that something is missing in this body. Therefore this body is called dead. Now, that something is described definitely, is soul. So we can distinguish between the spirit and soul, some way or other. So as there is material world, there must be some spiritual world. Otherwise how the spirit is there? The spirit is there, the soul is there. That is spiritual. So two things we are experiencing: spirit and matter. So as we are experiencing this material world, so similarly there must be a spiritual world. There must be a spiritual world. Otherwise wherefrom the spirit comes?
David Lawrence: Yes, yes.
Malcolm: When a time in years pass, he will forget, and ...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That forgetfulness is forced. He's, he's not happy.
Malcolm: If he would then, when he is a grown person, recapture or re-feel the link to his reason for being, he must go back in his experience or thought to the point at which he cried to feel again the feeling of being lost. Now, the Western youth seem to have been forced to accept their position, and the position that they have accepted gives them no freedom to go back and find the point at which they felt the experience of the thing they had lost. So in their minds they would say, "There is something missing. There is no God. But there is a God. Yet I must find him with my mind." And then they know through the search that it is only going back through their own years of experience to the point at which they had lost that they will find it. But for the Westerner it clashes with his total Western heritage, the thing imposed him upon by his senses which is that he may not isolate himself from his community in order to go back. And the young people cannot move because this point holds them.
Prabhupāda: No. The young people, they are moving. They are coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no check. Because they are western boys, there is no check. Just like they're all Europeans, Americans. So how they are coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? It doesn't matter whether Western, Eastern. Natural propensity is the same, either in the East or in the West. So it doesn't matter. That is not impediment. Anywhere, the science is... Just like your physical science. It is as good as in the West as in the East. For the East, there cannot be a different physical science. The same science can be taught in the East and the West.
Revatīnandana: "No person except He's like me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the Vedic scripture says, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). His person is different. Sac-cid-ānanda. That is not exactly with our personality. This is material. This is temporary personality. Now I am man. Next time I may become dog, Next time become demigod. It is changing. It is not eternal, sat. So God is not like that. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). He does not come here being forced by the material energy. He comes by His spiritual energy. Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā. Find out this. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). Therefore, as soon as He's accepted as ordinary man, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). He does not know what is the power behind that.
Prabhupāda: When meditation, meditation, dhyāna, it is very difficult nowadays. You chant to meditate, you think of your own business. That's another thing. So this is forced meditation: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" Even if you do not want to hear, you will hear. (laughter) And there is chanting and dancing, everyone who doesn't wanted to hear they also hear.
Revatīnandana: So therefore you do that. You go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to be a doctor. By force. "Now, you come..."
Prabhupāda: We are treating them.
Revatīnandana: "...and be a doctor." They all want to be preachers.
Mother: You've got to have balance, balance otherwise. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Balance, this is balance. Let us... You, you take some students and train them as medical man. But I am training to become preachers. Why you interfere with my business? You do your own business.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am simply explaining what Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā. I am acting on His behalf. I am acting on His behalf. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that there is no more higher authority than Him. I am speaking to my students: "There is no more higher authority than Kṛṣṇa." So, in other words, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's statement and my statement.
Reporter: I understand. But you know that if you want for changing society you must have a force...
Yogeśvara: You need the strength to change society.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: You have to have sufficient strength to change society.
Prabhupāda: I may not have sufficient strength. I can... If I can convert a dozen of people, that is my success.
Prabhupāda: Independence means that you may obey me or not obey me. It is not my flaw. Otherwise, independence has no meaning. Independence has no meaning. If I give you independence... Just like Kṛṣṇa is giving independence to Arjuna: "Now I have explained to you everything. Now I give you independence. Either you accept or not accept, that is your position." So if this independence has no such quality, acceptance... That is not independence. If one has to be forced by the law of God, that is not independence. Then one does not know what is the meaning of independence.
Prabhupāda: So why in the beginning stop? Why in the beginning they are requested to give it up? (break)
Yogeśvara: Rosicrucian order doesn't force anything, doesn't make you do anything. (break) ...people that join this organization, only seven succeed.
Prabhupāda: Then it cannot be preached among the mass of people.
Yogeśvara: It's an order that likes very much the ideals of beauty and harmony and morality, but they can't see imposing on anyone these things. I guess their idea is that you can't impose beauty and morality on anyone. You can't insist that anyone stop killing. You can't tell anyone forcibly not to do this or not to do that, that these are things that you have to realize.
Prabhupāda: But is there such rules and regulation or injunction from the society that "You do not kill." Just like Bible there is, "You shall not kill." So they have no such thing.
Śyāmasundara: Everyone's being forced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Harry: Yeah... But I think these, you know, and I know, of course, you know, I've...
Prabhupāda: The people chant Hare Kṛṣṇa by seeing us. Yes. All over the world.
Guest (1): That's this one.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, we have to understand what is that force which is moving this body. Then we come to the spiritual platform. As you understand, the nature of the soul, that is very elaborately explained in different way, negative, positive way, what is the soul. This morning, every morning I speak on this Bhagavad-gītā, if you find time you can come. At quarter past seven, I'm beginning, for one hour.
Guest (4) (English woman): Could I ask please, if prāṇa is the life force, isn't it? Is it the prāṇa is the life force, isn't it?
Pradyumna: Says like prāṇa is the life force.
Guest (4): Is it in different parts of the body?
Prabhupāda: These are air. Prāṇa, in the prāṇa, air, the soul floats. Therefore the controlling the air is called prāṇāyāma. That is yogic process.
Prabhupāda: ...technology. If you simply try to understand Kṛṣṇa, His activities, His appearance, His disappearance, this technology, then you also become like Kṛṣṇa. No more birth, no more death, no more disease. This is science. In this life if you simply try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa, then you become immune from birth, death, old age and disease. So if you don't like... Not you, mean the people. They say, "No, we don't like Kṛṣṇa consciousness..." But you are so much advanced in science and technology. Where is your technology? That was my question in the Massachusetts Technological... "Where is your technology to stop this death?" Nobody wants to die. Is it not a fact? So where is that technology that human society has given, has been awarded with this profit by such and such great scientist that people will no more die, no more disease, no more birth, no more old age? Nobody wants to become old. Nobody wants to get an old body like me. Rheumatic troubles. Nobody wants. But I am forced to accept. Where is that technology? I was also young man like you. I would like to go back again to that young life, but there is no possibility. So where is that technology? Real problems of life are not solved. Because there is no knowledge. Lack of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Physical is my outward dress. Just like your coat, if it becomes old enough, there is no more possibility to use it. You have to throw it away. You have to take another coat. Similarly, physically, I am spirit soul. When my physical body is old enough, useless, then I will have to give it up. I will have to accept another new body. But the question is that I am eternal; why I am forced to accept a body which will be useless after some time? That is the problem. I am eternal, as spirit soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). I do not die after the annihilation of this body. But why I am forced to accept another body, which will be annihilated? This technology is unknown all over the world. And still they are proud of becoming very advanced in science.
Prabhupāda: Solution of difficulty is to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
- daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
- mama māyā duratyayā
- mām eva ye prapadyante
- māyām etāṁ taranti te
- (BG 7.14)
Māyā... Just like if there are criminals, then the police force will be increased, punishment will be increased, so similarly, human beings, they are becoming godless, so by nature there must be punishment. They will not be supplied food. The food supply will be restricted. After all, the food is in the hands of nature. You cannot produce food. You can produce bolts and nuts in the factory, but you cannot eat bolts and nuts. You have to eat rice and grains. So that restriction if there is... (Hindi) The solution is to, back to home, back to Godhead. Otherwise there is no solution.
Prabhupāda: That is the.... Now it is the duty of the secular government.... Now if somebody is claiming that, "I am brāhmaṇa", then government should force him to become actually a brāhmaṇa. That is government's duty, that is secular state. Not that let people go to hell, we don't care for them, that is not required.
Hṛdayānanda: And a devotee has no material desires. (He wants) to serve Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And unless one is factually desireless, he cannot be happy. The karmī, jñānī, yogi, they are all full of desires. Therefore they are unhappy. Karmīs are the lowest of the unhappies, jñānīs are little advanced, yogis are little more advanced, and the perfection is the bhakta, devotees. Na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagad-īśa kāmaye (Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4). This is bhakta. (break) ...siddhi-kāmī sakali aśānta. Bhukti means karmī, and mukti means jñānī. And siddhi, aṣṭa-siddhi, magic power, mystic power. That is called siddhi. Those who are practicing yoga, if they are actually yogis, they can have aṣṭa-siddhi. Aṇimā, laghimā. They can become smaller than the smallest, heavier than the heaviest. Mahimā, prāpti. They can get anything they like. A yogi can get... Suppose if you want a pomegranate from Kabul, he will get immediately. Yes. That is yogi. As if he is snatching from the tree, yes. Prāpti-siddhi, īśitā. They can force their influence upon anyone. Īśitā, vaśitā. Yogis can hypnotize you. As he will say, you will act. As he will say, you will act. These yogis do that. They take something nonsense, "Now take gold," and you will think it is gold. Just like magician do.
Umāpati: Yes, but it's not recognized.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like I say, "Chant sixteen rounds." If you do not do it. What can I do? That is your fault.
Satsvarūpa: If God were to force us, there'd be no love.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no. Force is not good. Force is there. Force is there. The māyā is another force.
Prajāpati: There's a large segment of the population today who say, "We only speak about God in terms of our own relationships with each other." So one group, they say, "This is all male chauvinism, to say God is a male. Actually, we are saying now the women should be elevated so God is woman for us." They say like that.
Prabhupāda: God... But uh... Well, that's all right. God is male and female both. God, our God, sometimes He takes the form of female, Mohinī-mūrti. Mohinī-mūrti. But comparatively studying, God is puruṣa, male.
Yaśomatīnandana: One who is learning by seeing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One who knows that these material things, it has got a beginning and it has got an end... In every day we see that. Even with our body we see that it has a beginning and it has an end. I have seen my father was born and he died. So I am also born; I'll also die. My son is also born; my son will die. This is real experience. But if somebody says that "I shall not die. We are trying to become immortal," so that is foolishness. That is foolishness. By experience from time immemorial, historical reference, there is no such thing as immortality. But if somebody says, "By chemical evolution we shall become immortal..." Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness proposition is that human life is meant for factual knowledge or ultimate knowledge. But these rascals are checking that progress. That means the prerogative of human life is being denied to the human society. So this kind of hindrances should be stopped, either by soliciting or even by force, because the human society is being ruined. These things have to be stopped. Therefore I was inquiring that "Why American went to Vietnam?" To stop communism, but that sort of stopping will not make any solution. We have to stop demoniac civilization. Then the human society will be happy and in normal condition.
Karandhara: Lenin said that God is just opiate of the people, just to keep them intoxicated.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. That means Lenin wanted to become God. That's all. The God idea is there, but he cannot be God. Because he was under the laws of God, he died. He died. He could not save himself from death. Therefore he is not supreme authority. He accepted supreme authority, but he wanted himself to become the supreme authority. Now, when he died, he is not supreme authority. He is forced to die. Then there is another supreme authority.
Prabhupāda: They did not like it?
Jagajjīvana: No, they did not like it, the officials. So then we started to leave, thinking, "Well, rather than cause any trouble, we better leave." So then the people, they wouldn't let us leave. So then the leaders there, they were forced to put us on stage. And so we chanted on stage with big microphones and thousands of people came to listen, and then we taught them how to chant Nitāi-Gaurāṅga, and they all chanted. Nitāi, Nitāi, Gaurāṅga, Gaurāṅga. It was very amazing. And then we distributed books and we lectured. (break) Their Lordships Gaura-Nitāi have come because of that chanting, Deities. (break)
Prabhupāda: If the chanter is sincere.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Bali-mardana: Kṛṣṇa is benevolent, and the material nature is not.
Prabhupāda: No, material nature... Just like you don't care for government. Then you be controlled by the jail superintendent. That's all. You'll be controlled. You cannot be free. But if you deny directly the control of the government then you must be controlled by the criminal department, by force. This is your position.
Bali-mardana: Either to be controlled by love or by force.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bali-mardana: One has a choice to either be controlled by love or by force.
Prabhupāda: But love, there is no love when there is force.
Bali-mardana: No, but by Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is love. Just like you are being controlled by me. There is no force. Voluntarily, out of love... I am not paying you. Still, if I say something, immediately you do. Why? There is love. That's all.
Prabhupāda: I forced him to go to U.S.A. and get...
Dr. Patel: I invited him to stay in my house, but he said that he won't come.
Prabhupāda: No, no, he is not interested for his person.
Dr. Patel: We have invite him. When he is ill, he may stay with me. We may have a little sat-saṅga.
Prabhupāda: But he is sarva-bhūta-hite ratāḥ. Why he should be concentrated one?
Mr. Sar: Adveṣṭā sarva-bhūtānām.
Prabhupāda: Ah, adveṣṭā. It is not, "I am Hindu. Why shall I preach amongst the Christian?" The dveṣṭā.
Dr. Patel: Adveṣṭā sarva-bhūtānām.
Prabhupāda: But one has to become adveṣṭā. This is adveṣṭā.
Prabhupāda: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come.
Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. But make it full force. This is full? (Sound of loud fan coming on.)
Yaśomatīnandana: This revolves, but I don't know how.
Prabhupāda: I am conducting all these temples with the help of these foreigners. There, there is no Indian.
Guest: That's what will come in the way.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) (break) Any intelligent man will say like that. I said... When they fought so much for Hindi language, I said that "Why not Sanskrit?"
Dr. Patel: If you make Sanskrit a compulsory language, forced (?) language, the effort that you put up to... (break)
Prabhupāda: "...both you and Me, we have changed so many times, taken birth. But you have forgotten. I have not forgotten." Why this difference?
Guest (1): By force you marry.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, there is no marriage.
Guest (1): Now they are, they questioned and they call this the modern day...
Prabhupāda: (break) ...of the same quality.
Prabhupāda: It is simply forceful negation.
Dr. Patel: But in spite of their wives' agitation, they are not agitated.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that... No, you are calling them siddhas. Therefore I am telling you. Then impotents are siddhas.
Dr. Patel: Then what should we call them?
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, they are little advanced. That's all. You can say that. (break) ...facility, they are, they have become little advanced.
Chandobhai: After he attains that, these qualities are the test of that man, how we can test that man?
Prabhupāda: No, no, testing, that is also stated. Just like these Europeans, Americans, in their previous position, they had many bad habits. But somehow or other, they have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is their position, guṇātīta. Even by habit they commit something mistake, that is not to be taken into account. Because... Just hear. Just like a fan is moving, and make the switch off. So the switch is off. That is first consideration. And after the switch being off, the fan is moving, that is no consideration. Do you understand? Because the fan was in force, so you, although you have made the switch off, still moving.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, but we cannot understand any movement, but it is moving. The force is there.
Dr. Patel: Shall I go further?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: Death.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, how to stop this forceful entering into the mouth of the kāla. Just like a very good example: When there is fire and all the insects and flies, "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" That's it. Attracted by the beauty. Similarly, all these big, big leaders, being attracted, bahir-artha-māninaḥ... They have been described in Bhāgavata, bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking this beautiful nature as everything, "There is no other thing."
Prabhupāda: Why there is difference? (break) ...and Kṛṣṇa's power is compared. Brahmā's power is just like glowworm, and Kṛṣṇa's power is just like day sunlight. (break) The power displayed, they are of different degrees. That is the difference. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they say everything is water. They give that example. But the sea water, the force of the sea water, and the water in a pot, small pot, the degrees of force are different. In England it is very common to say, "Lord Chelmsford. Lord Chelmsford," do you know?
Dr. Patel: We used to call him Chelemfor.
Prabhupāda: No. So Chelmsford is a place, is a village. But he is called Lord Chelmsford. He is personified. Like that.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...and some European, one European was coming. So as soon as we face to face, so I had to get down. They forced me.
Dr. Patel: He was a diplomat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...between demons and gods. So god abides by the order of the Supreme Lord; the demons do not. That's all. They do indirectly, by force. Just like the demon has to die.
Prabhupāda: Land belongs to the king, and you take land for cultivation, and you pay 25% tax to the king. That's all. All taxes. If you don't produce, then don't pay tax.
Yogeśvara: Oh, it wasn't forced that you had to pay so much.
Prabhupāda: No.
Atreya Ṛṣi: You pay 25% of what you have produced.
Prabhupāda: What you have produced, that's all. Very simple thing. Everyone was engaged producing. There was no necessity. And here the rascals are advising, produce bolts and nuts, tire, and drill petrol. They are not producing food. And the so-called government men, they are levying taxes, and they are enjoying. They haven't got to produce food. They are killing animals, eating, and digesting with wine. And then woman. That's all. This is their business. And food price is increasing daily. They don't mind because they will print paper, and to the supplier they will give paper. That's all.
Prabhupāda: He is proud that "How fast I can drive!" Just see. And where you are going? "I am going to hell, that's all. Never mind." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā Just like the flies. They are coming very forcefully. Where? In the fire. Pat! Pa! Pa! Pa! Pa!" They are very busy. And as soon as on the fire, finished. Just see. Very busy. Without inquiring, "Where I am going so forcefully?" But they are going to the fire.
Prabhupāda: Example.
Satsvarūpa: Not that we dictate to the... Not that we are going to force everyone.
Prabhupāda: No, we are not going to force anyone. "Our mode of living is like this. If you like you can adopt." Just like we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So we are not forcing anyone that "You also, you must chant." No. We live like this.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, that is kṣatriya. If one does not obey the social structure, he must be forced. That is the idea of slaves. The śūdras who do not work properly, he must be forced. Nobody should remain unemployed. The śūdras are inclined. If he has got something to eat, he will not work. You see? Then again he will work when his need, eating. This is śūdra mentality.
Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's the difference. The Communists, they were thinking themselves exploited. Actually they were fearful because they were thinking they would not get enough to eat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, not only that. The Communists... Everyone has got different propensity. And I have seen in Moscow. You cannot get foodstuff to your selection. That is forced. If I go to the market, I can purchase to my taste, to my selection. But if I have to purchase from the government store whatever nonsense thing they will supply, I will have to accept. Why? I want to eat something today. Why I will be forced to eat something else?
Bhagavān: That's not good?
Prabhupāda: That's not good.
Prabhupāda: That is also animalism. Just like a dog having sex intercourse with another female dog, and another, another, another. It is also animalism. So that is your decision. They are animals, and different way they are coming to be naked animal, that's all. The divorce is also dog's business. Dog is having sex intercourse with this female dog and another, another, another, another. It is animalism, That's all.
Yogeśvara: But people are objecting that: If we cannot get divorced, then we are forced to live with each other even if we hate each other."
Prabhupāda: But hate each other, that's all right. We say what is the use of your sexual intercourse? That is animalism. You avoid it. Our Vedic civilization is to avoid it. Therefore they remain brahmacārī, naiṣṭhika-brahmacārī, no sexual intercourse in the whole life. That is perfection.
Prabhupāda: Rascal, what you have done? You are simply talking. What you have done? There are so many starving people all over the world. What you have done? "Starving people." I have seen. They cannot give starving people. Just like we went to Russia. So we wanted rice. There is no rice. There was no good rice. We wanted fruit. There was no fruit. So what you have done? I am starving for fruit and rice. You cannot supply me. That is practical. I have seen it. They will offer, "Take this beef instead of fruit." Then I will starve. So what he has done for me? I am starving. I cannot take beef. I want rice, but you cannot supply me. That I have seen. One Madrasi gentleman was bringing rice for me. It could not be purchased in the market. There is no fruit. So if I want fruit and rice and if you give me beef, it is as good as if I want bread, if you give me stone. So where is the capacity to satisfy the starving? I am starving for rice. You cannot give me. Why do you propose like that, that you can satisfy the starving man. You cannot do that. You are talking nonsense. Can you satisfy everyone? Somebody is starving for knowledge. So how you can... This bluff will not satisfy him. So where is the question of starving, satisfying the starving? It is not possible. Unless he is satisfied, nobody can satisfy others. That satisfaction is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I am fully satisfied. I don't want." Where is the satisfaction? You cannot satisfy everyone. That is not possible. In Russia, there are so many unsatisfied people, so many millions. Where they are satisfied? If you think that "You must eat what I give you," that is not my satisfaction. That is your satisfaction. So where is the question of satisfying the starving? How it is possible? You cannot force me to do something and say, "Be satisfied." That is not possible. If you satisfy me as I want, then you can satisfy me.
Satsvarūpa: The pure devotee gives the chance to everyone, but only a few approach. So still the question is how can they become interested in the pure devotee?
Prabhupāda: No, this is the..., that you do it. If they do not do it, then who will come? This declaration is there, that "If you do this, then you can be interested." But if you do not, then you go on with your own business. A similar... The same things Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parit... mām ekam. Kṛṣṇa is demanding that you do it, "Surrender unto Me." The śāstra also says, "Surrender unto the representative of Kṛṣṇa," mahīyasām. But if they do not do, what can be done? Just see this sparrow. The sex is always accompanying, any time ready. The pigeons, any time ready. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. That is the only attachment for this material world, viṣaya. Whole world is fighting for this viṣaya. "I must have nice eating, I must have nice sleeping, I must have very good sex, and I should be defended by bank balance, by military soldiers, by police force, by atomic weapons." This is going on.
Prabhupāda: But if he has no brain, if he is not guided by the brain, or if he has no brain, so what is the understanding? Understanding is "I have got money. Now let me drink," that's all. There must be...
C. Hennis: First of all, you can't force a man to be governed by his brain either. You can't force a man to use his brains.
Prabhupāda: Therefore brain is... The United Nation, how the world society should keep a class of men who act as brain and guide everyone so that everyone becomes happy.
Prof. Regamay: But nonviolence is not well in every case?
Prabhupāda: No, nonviolence... Actually that is the subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā. What do you mean by nonviolence. Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence. But the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural. If you say that time nonviolence, it is foolishness. It is foolishness. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Those who are rogues and, I mean to say, culprit, criminal, they should be killed. They should be stopped by violence. So violence is required sometimes. Violence is not bad, but it is not to be used ordinarily.
Prabhupāda: Then the whole cosmic manifestation, this material nature, there must be also the moving force. That is God. Now, just like within this body I am the person and under my command the body is going, working. I am asking the hand, "Please come here." Immediately... So I am also īśvara, means controller. So far this body is concerned, I am the controller. Similarly, the supreme controller, He is called parameśvara, "the supreme controller." That is God.
Prabhupāda: Who created? Who created? You created this stones and sand?
Paramahaṁsa: Nature.
Prabhupāda: Then what is nature?
Satsvarūpa: The life force working behind...
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Satsvarūpa: They'd say the life force is working...
Prabhupāda: Therefore nature is... Behind the nature, there is Kṛṣṇa.
Yogeśvara: (translating for Deshimaru) He suggests that perhaps this force is something more than person. Since it is in all people, it is something that all people share, but it's beyond them.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but in all people the force is a person. Just like the force is in him, force in me, but we are person. (French)
Yogeśvara: This force is the soul.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So soul is a person.
Pṛthu Putra: He says the man is like a phenomenon. He appears and he disappears. And when he disappears, he merge in this cosmic force.
Yogeśvara: Like anything. Like a flower that grows and dies and merges again into the earth.
Prabhupāda: Merges?
Yogeśvara: Just like a flower grows from the earth...
Prabhupāda: They do not believe in the reincarnation, next birth? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says there is no personal reincarnation of the soul. When the body dies... (break) (French) He says, himself, he has no answer, but the Zen philosophy has one answer.
Prabhupāda: Zen philosophy answer? (French)
Yogeśvara: He was that cosmic force. Before birth, man was the universality of everything.
Prabhupāda: And what you are now?
Yogeśvara: And now he is himself. Now he is different.
Prabhupāda: So how you became from zero?
Pṛthu Putra: No, he don't say he is different. He says, "Now I am myself." (French) His point is that he doesn't think that man is more important than the flower or the table. It's all the same.
Prabhupāda: Then why he is anxious for man's suffering? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says the man is there. The suffering is there.
Prabhupāda: No. So why he is bothering about suffering? He was zero, beginning, and he will be zero and now he is also zero.
Pṛthu Putra: He says actually he doesn't start from zero. He starts from the cosmic force.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pṛthu Putra: He says it's something we cannot define what is it. A man is not able to define this force.
Prabhupāda: That means... You cannot define: that means your knowledge is imperfect. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says his knowledge is imperfect, that's for sure, but he says to define this cosmic force with the human mind is to bring down...
Yogeśvara: He says actually a human mind cannot define it. A human mind can't actually encompass the whole of the cosmic force.
Prabhupāda: If you cannot define, there is no remedy for your suffering. Just like a disease, unless the physician knows what is the infection, he cannot treat.
Prabhupāda: So let him become in knowledge. (French)
Karandhara: How does the cosmic force become ignorant of itself and fall into this condition? If before he was this form he was the cosmic energy, how he can fall down into ignorance and become an individual, limited, conditioned soul? (French)
Yogeśvara: I'm finding it hard to be able to translate because he says that we're ignorant and he says at the same time we're not ignorant.
Prabhupāda: What is this? When you speak of ignorance, that means he has fallen down from knowledge. That is ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Their analogy must be perfect in all points, otherwise it is no analogy.
Karandhara: Prabhupāda, the premise of Zen is that the cosmic force falls into misery when it develops an individual desire. So an individual, as long as he has desires and he wants things, then he's forced to suffer, to take on a body and to suffer. So the Zen satori is to give up all desire, not care one way or the other what happens.
Prabhupāda: That is also desire, to give up all desire.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be done automatically. Why you practice so much? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says the practice of zazen harmonize the self in this cosmic force.
Bhagavān: Does that harmony means to merge?
Prabhupāda: Now let me explain. Suppose the material elements are there. Somehow or other, combined together they have become this body. Is it not? Now, this body, when I am dead body, automatically it again becomes dispersed to the different elements. So this is taking place for even cats and dogs. Then what is the value of my meditation?
Prabhupāda: Then they have to accept good work and bad work.
Karandhara: Yes, they do. They have a similar understanding of karma so far as the material self is concerned, and that the soul or the self takes on different forms until it becomes perfectly selfless. And then it merges back into the nondescript, the cosmic force. So I don't know if this young man's versed in Zen philosophy...
Prabhupāda: That is our definition, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Śūnyam means, you have to give up all material desires. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). But the desire should be synchronized. Ānukulyena kṛṣṇānu..., you have to desire to satisfy Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: What is your opinion about this?
Professor Durckheim: May I ask a question? How do you teach your disciples to become aware of this force which is no matter that makes matter alive?
Prabhupāda: That active principle, life, or living soul.
Prabhupāda: (break) Caitanya-caritāmṛta and Bhāgavata is being accepted everywhere. Big, big libraries, universities. University, Bombay University. As far as possible (indistinct) all colleges. (break) There is no (indistinct) word meaning, word-to-word meaning (indistinct). When there is word... (break) You should be clear of all questions possible. Then you will be able to push very forcibly. You must be prepared to answer all the questions.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Any way you take it, then you become happy. That's all. Of course, when you take it out of love... That is a fact. So without love, this transaction, because there is no price for it... All other transaction, there is exchange of price. Here there is no price, so out of love only, one can take it, not by paying any price. It is not possible. To pay the price of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not possible. Yes.
Hanumān: You cannot force anybody to say, "I am the guru. I'm the (indistinct). Fall in love with me."
Prabhupāda: Why shall I force? What is my... That is not my business. I am Kṛṣṇa's servant. I simply say, "Here is good thing. You take it." Now, Kṛṣṇa also says that. He does not force. Kṛṣṇa is God. He can force, but He does not do that.
Guest (1): That is driving force and motivation of most human activities. But the question, purpose, which Leibnitz was asking for, he was asking on higher plane, in abstraction.
Prabhupāda: Higher plane means you are seeking after pleasure, but that is being obstructed. That is your position. You are seeking pleasure, but it is not unobstructed. Therefore you are seeking higher, where there is no obstruction. Pleasure is the purpose, but when you speak of higher plane, that means you are experiencing obstruction in getting pleasure. So you are seeking a platform where there is no obstruction. But the purpose is the same.
Hṛdayānanda: I'm going to translate piece by piece so I can tell you exactly what he's saying. He's saying that he understands perfectly well that a human being should look for a way for self-control and to control the physical force within him, but there's also another dimension in the human being which is a social dimension which also has to be taken care of.
Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā the social dimension is described, cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Find out this verse. You read.
Hṛdayānanda:
- cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ
- guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ
- tasya kartāram api māṁ
- viddhy akartāram avyayam
- (BG 4.13)
- (Spanish)
Prabhupāda: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments—the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg—so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division.
Prabhupāda: Yes, just like... It is very common sense clue. Kṛṣṇa says the proprietor of the body is within the body. Now, you were a child. So in your child body, you were present there, and in your boyhood body, you were present there. In your youthhood body, you were present there. Now you are middle-aged. You are there. I am old man. I am there. So body, the childhood body, the boyhood body, the youthhood body, they are no more existing, but I am existing. Therefore I am eternal; the body is temporary. This is the clue. Therefore the conclusion is that as I have changed so many body but still I am existing, therefore, when I shall change this body, I will exist. Now, I have transmigrated from babyhood body to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. Similarly, I shall transmigrate to another body. A you..., young man can say, "No, no, I don't believe in the old body," but that does not mean he will not get the old body. He will get it by laws of nature. That is compulsory. Similarly, if somebody says, "I don't believe in the next life," that does not mean he is authority. Nature will give him. Nature will not agree or obey the imperfect person. The same example: if the young man says, "I don't want old body," nature will not hear him. Nature will give him, force him: "You must accept old body." Everyone does not want to die, but nature puts him forcibly: "Yes, you must die." So after all, we are perfectly under the control of superior authority. We cannot become independent, and our independent thoughts has no value.
Prabhupāda: ...he did not like to kill his cousin-brother. He said that "Even they usurp my kingdom, I do not wish to kill them." So this affection, this bodily affection, was not very much approved by Kṛṣṇa. He said that "You are talking like a non-Āryan." Anārya-juṣṭam. Anārya. "The Āryan, they do not think like that." Another place He says that "You are giving consideration on the body, but any learned man does not refer to body, either dead or alive. They, learned man, will give stress on the moving force of the body." So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means basically on the moving force of the body.
Reporter: The moving force of...?
Prabhupāda: Of the body. Just like you are moving, I am moving. As soon as the moving force, whatever it is, is gone, then your body is a lump of matter, my body is a lump of matter.
Prabhupāda: Now, the mistake is... You are talking with me; I am talking with you. Your body is there, my body. But which is important? Your body is important, or the force which is talking, that is important? Which is important?
Reporter: The force.
Prabhupāda: Just see. So who is giving? Where is the educational institution to give lesson about this living force? Is there any education all over the world?
Reporter: But you don't find that the fact that your monks are wearing robes or shaving their heads is a difficulty in the West, where not many people...
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of East and West. It is the question of human life. There is no question... The Western people also have this living force, and Eastern people also have this living force. So where is the difference, West and East? There is no question of West and East. It is the problem for the whole human society.
Brahmānanda: It is difficult to come to that understanding, that actually, those who are the leaders are not to be trusted.
Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement.
Indian man (5): ...our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is there any different methods?
Prabhupāda: No, methods I have all explained. Kṛṣṇa bhakta means do what Kṛṣṇa says. That is Kṛṣṇa bhakti. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇanu-śilānam (CC Madhya 19.167). Just like Arjuna did. He did not like to fight with his cousin-brothers, but after hearing instruction of Kṛṣṇa, he said, "Yes," naṣṭo mohaḥ, "my illusion is now over." Smṛtir labdhā: "I have got my consciousness." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: (BG 18.73) "I shall act as You are saying, that's all." This is Kṛṣṇa bhakta. We may have different decisions. That is natural. But when you agree to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa, then your life is perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have to agree. Kṛṣṇa does not force; He says, "Do this like this," and if we agree, then we are Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: No. No there. Here, here I impress...
Guest: He has bestowed all His love to a given people. And my third point is that if we believe God as a life force or who must be discovered by a human being and the human being who has to proceed toward this truth, then also we have no reason to confine this into one people.
Indian man: Swamiji, I may take your leave.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Why you are going soon?
Indian man: I have to go still far off.
Prabhupāda: Oh, all right. Jaya. Jaya.
Prabhupāda: ...indicates God, then it is not bad. That is our point. If we indicates to God... Just like Allah. If this name indicates to God, then it is this Allah word as good as God. There is no difference. Nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija sarva śakti. The Allah, the conception of Allah means The Great, is it not? So God is Great. So by chanting Allah, I am meaning God, the Supreme Person, so it is as good. And actually in Mosque, they chant Allah-u-akbar, like that, so far I've heard. So that prayer, if it is not God's name, then what is the use of this prayer? That is God's name. Similarly, the Hindus may chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're indicating to the same personality. It may be different language; therefore, it is as good as God because God is absolute. But this, this name is authorize because Muhammad said that you chant, "Allah." So it is authorized, because he is God's representative. Therefore my request is, or our request is that you chant the name of Allah. We don't say that you chant Kṛṣṇa. You chant the Holy name of God. If Allah is approved name of God, you chant it. That is our request. We don't force you that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. No, we don't say that. If somebody says Jehovah is the name of God, that's all right, you chant Jehovah. Allah is the name of God, that's all right, you do it. We simply request that you chant the holy name of God. That's all. If you have got it, we don't force you that you chant the name of Kṛṣṇa. That is not our way. We accept: if Allah is God's name, it is as good as the name Kṛṣṇa. We are not so sophisticated that you have to chant this Kṛṣṇa's name. No, we say: Harer nāma. That is the śāstra, harer nāma. The name of the Lord. So there are many thousands of names, that's a fact. So you actually chant the name of God. Pick up of the millions of God's name, whatever you like, you pick up and chant. That is our propagation.
Prabhupāda: Hm? I am in the prison house, and the prison superintendent is controlling me fully, and if I say, "I don't care for anyone," what is this nonsense? Even in ordinary life, if somebody says, "I don't care for government laws. I shall do whatever I like," is it very good sense? Similarly, you are fully under the control of material nature, and you are declaring independence. You should, rather, consider that "Why I have been put under the control of material nature? I don't want it. I don't want to be diseased. But why disease is forced upon me? I don't want to become old man. Why it is forced upon me? I don't want to die. Why death is forced upon me?" These should be the proper questions. But instead of questioning this, he's thinking, "I am independent." How much foolish he is.
Prabhupāda: No. The Bangladesh, they were Bengalis. Although the whole Pakistan, including Bangladesh and the other part, West Pakistan, East Pakistan, Bangladesh... So actually, Bangladesh is bigger than West Pakistan. They should have taken the government, majority. But the West Pakistan, by force they were ruling. They are not majority. So after all, they are Bengalis, maybe Muslim. They're intelligent than these Punjabis. Punjabis, they have got bodily strength, not brain.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, because you have got this body. And after giving up this body, completely, blissful life. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). You are not going to get another body of suffering, that is your advantage. And these rascals, they are going to continue one body after another simply suffering. And for the devotees, although they do not suffer, it is just like, the fan is moving, you make the switch off. It is actually not moving, it is by the last force it is moving, but the switch is off. And it will stop, suffering. But you have no such chance, you will simply go on suffering, moving, moving, moving, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You shall have to accept one body, suffer, and again give up this body. Another body suffer, because so long as you accept material body, this body or that body, you will have to suffer. Material body means suffering. So those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will change bodies one after another, and continue to suffer threefold miseries. And devotees, actually they are not suffering, but even if you say they are suffering, so after giving up this body, they are no more accepting material body. They will remain in spiritual body.
Satsvarūpa: But should this be forced on people if they don't want it?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Satsvarūpa: If a large section of the people don't want spiritual life, that's their...
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot force. That is not possible, because he has got independence. You cannot force. You can simply give him knowledge. Therefore to distribute knowledge is the best welfare activities, not this material so-called happiness, daridra-nārāyaṇa-seva and this... They have got that. That will not make them happy. If you give them knowledge, then they will be really benefited. Otherwise not.
Brahmānanda: How do we give knowledge to the common masses of people?
Prabhupāda: Yes, by saṅkīrtana. By hearing, hearing, hearing—this is a medicinal process—the heart will be cleansed and they will take up the knowledge. Now the heart is unclean, so he cannot take up. So this is the medicine. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā. Harer nāma harer... (CC Adi 17.21). Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra wherever possible, and whoever will hear, he will gradually become cleansed. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). And then bhava-mahā-dāvāgni... Then his material pangs will be over. This is the only medicine. Therefore chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Some way or other, let them have the chance of hearing, and then it will act as medicine. Even he does not will, you chant, you let him hear by force, and he will be cured.
Prabhupāda: But I'm protesting that you cannot control. You are rascal. You are thinking like that. That is our charge against you, that you cannot control. In the history there is not a single instance that man has controlled nature. But nature has controlled man. That is the history. Where is the proof that you shall control? You are controlled. Nature is forcing you to become an old man. You are becoming. You control like that, that you remain a young man. Nature is controlling you to die. You control nature that death will not be forced upon me. So where is the history that man has controlled nature?
Nitāi: They say that now we are controlling atomic energy and now we are controlling...
Prabhupāda: What is that atomic energy? What is the use of it? We'll die. Without atomic energy you'll die. What is that control? Death is already there, and you're utilizing atomic energy for death, that's all. So what is your credit? You use atomic energy that you'll not die. Then it is control. Death is already there. You might have atomic energy or no atomic energy—you have to die. By atomic energy you are accelerating the same problem of death, that's all.
Prabhupāda: These rascals give trouble to the people, especially in India. They are not after the vaccine. They will catch people and force them. Just see. This is going on. (indistinct) ...others are avoiding, they are going, going this way, that way. Sometimes they fall, they do not know, and capture (indistinct) These rascals are creating havoc. Only to kick them on their face with shoes. That's all. The so-called scientists and biologists and... They do not know anything.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you stop? You are forced to give us. You stop. If we are begging from you, you stop it. But you cannot stop. You have to give us. We are showing that we are beggar, but we are taxing, exacting tax from you. You can think whatever you like.
Makhanlal: The government is also begging.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if we are begging, then you stop it. That is in your hand. We are not depending on you.
Prabhupāda: It is explained there. He does not reveal Himself. Why He shall reveal Himself to an unqualified person? That is Kṛṣṇa's prerogative. If He likes He will reveal. If He does not like He will not reveal. You cannot by force see Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, first of all be qualified, then try to see Kṛṣṇa. He is not exposed. Even a big man, if you want to see him, he may refuse: "No, I will not see." What can you do? If you think that "This man is third-class man, why shall I see him?" Even in ordinary human society that is going on. So why people are eager to see Kṛṣṇa without being qualified? Why these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" First of all you become fit to see God.
Prabhupāda: So, this is foolishness. You become very bold enough, "Now I shall cook without fire." You are a rascal number one. Gandhi did it. Actually he could not drive away the Britishers by nonviolence, for thirty years, thirty-five years he struggled. When Subash Bose introduced violence, they were forced out. This is politics. Politics and nonviolence (incompatible). There is no history in the world that politics has been successful without violence, and he introduced this.
Gaṇeśa: Does it mean we should use violence to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness then, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No. Yes, when there is politics, that is necessary. I am speaking of politics, not of love. You cannot create love by violence. That is another thing. But if you want kingdom, there must be violence. By violence you cannot force a woman, agree to love you. That is not possible. Then there must be love. The business must be done accordingly. But when there is politics, there must be violence. Otherwise you cannot come out victorious. (break) ...in a friendly way. "Might is right." So Gandhi did this foolishness and he died of violence. (laughs) He praised the philosophy of nonviolence, but he was himself killed by violence. That was his foolishness.
Paramahaṁsa: So because people are so much in darkness about religion, therefore they say...
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is in darkness. If you can make propaganda, the people will be misled. That is not very difficult. Just like from Russia, nobody is communist. But it is going on—the Russia is communist country. I have studied thoroughly. Nobody is communist. Maybe a few only. But it is going on by propaganda that Russia is a communist country. The people in general, they are forced to accept it. That book was written by some man, terrorism. It is terrorism. That's it. By force. Nobody accepts this communist philosophy, I have studied. (everyone gets out of car) They were very, very unhappy. The young man cannot go out of the country. Just see. Restricted. How much uncomfortable he is feeling. Especially in European countries, the young men, they want to go. But they will not allow. They will not allow anything to read except Lenin's literature. What is this? Simply suppressing. Everyone is unhappy. Which way? This way? This is their position. I have seen it directly. And as soon as one is suspected that he is doing otherwise, he will be sent to some unknown camp. Nobody knows where he has gone.
Prabhupāda: Tomato, cheese, potato. Yes. And fried peanuts? And salad, fruit. By force... Communism is going on, by force. It is the result of sinful life.
Paramahaṁsa: They're put into that circumstance.
Prabhupāda: Yes, people are sinful, they will not do nicely, and now, by nature... Just like this child killing. They did it in his previous life. Now he is suffering. He will be killed. The nature's reaction. We are taking sympathy with the child who is being killed, but we do not know that he did the same business. Now he is being killed. That is nature's law.
Prabhupāda: It means they have no idea of the spiritual identity. Their idea is that matter is important. But they do not know that matter is not important, but the spirit is important. That is moving the matter. It is very easy to understrand. Because the spirit soul is within this body, it is moving. But they cannot understand-dull-headed. What is that force that is moving this body? That they do not consider to understand.
Prabhupāda: Education, if it is not for the benefit of the people, then what is the use of such education? That is not a good education. Education means something which will benefit the mass of people. That is education. To enlighten them to do something better. That is education. And this whole Darwin's theory is false. But people are giving too much stress. First of all, anyone, even Darwin, he's not independent. Just like Darwin has died. So, he is under the control of something higher. Nobody wants to die, but he is forced to die. Is it not? Then where is his independence?
Carol: That is the illusion.
Prabhupāda: Education means right knowledge. Right knowledge. Just like, everyone wants to live. Nobody wants to die. So, the enquiry should be that "I do not wish to die. Why death is forced upon me?" What is that force? What is the nature of that force? If I submit, "Yes, the force is there," then where is my knowledge? I do not wish to die. So why death is forced upon me? Nobody wants miserable condition of life, but miserable condition of life is enforced upon me. So this should be first of all enquired, that I do not want these things, and who is enforcing upon me these things? This is the first enquiry, philosophical.
Prabhupāda: Nature will force you that after forty years of age you must become old, and you must not remain so beautiful. This is forced. But no one wants that. No woman wants that "I shall look not beautiful and my flesh should be flabby and no more luster. I don't want all these things." Why it is forced?
Carol: Suffering and pain leads people to God, doesn't it?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Amogha: She says doesn't the suffering and pain lead people towards God?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the law, but we are so dull-headed that we do not enquire. That is my statement, that you should enquire "Who is forcing these things?" Then there is enquiry of God. First of all we must be... Just like a dog. He cannot understand. He's under chain. He's leading a life most dependent. And he is jolly. He is jumping here and there. That is dog's life. If the master kills him, he cannot do anything. But he is very jolly. He is jumping. That is dog's life. But not human life. Human life is that I am dependent in every step, still I am declaring independent. What is this nonsense? This enquiry should be there. He is dependent in every step, exactly like the cats and dogs, but he is claiming, "I am independent."
Devotee (1): They said that the man cannot be convicted of rape if he honestly believes that the woman consented to his raping her.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, "Yes, I felt happiness." So he was released. "Here is consent." And that's a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, "Yes, I felt some pleasure." "Now, there is consent." So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. That's a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology.
Prabhupāda: There is no law; it is all lusty desire. All law or no law, these are all nonsense. The śāstra has... It is lusty desire, that's all. Everyone wants to fulfill a lusty desires. So unless one is not in the modes of goodness or transcendental, everyone will like. That is the material world, rajas-tamaḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvaḥ kāma-lobhadayaś ca ye (SB 1.2.19). It is all discussed in the śāstra. Just like I am hungry man. There is foodstuff. I want to eat it. So if I take by force, that is illegal, and if I pay for it, then it is legal. But I am the hungry man, I want it. This is going on. Everyone is lusty. Therefore they say "legalized prostitution." They want it. So marriage is something legalized, that's all. The passion and the desire is the same, either married or not married. So this Vedic law says, "Better married. Then you will be controlled."
Amogha: And they will also be forced out.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Such a huge city, if there is no money, they will tax those who are living there more and more. That is the only alternative. If you want actually peaceful life, then produce your own necessities of life and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and read these books. This is the only solution. There is no other solution. What is the use of running fifty miles by car to go to one's office and sit down in the office and make plan how to exploit others? This way? This is the business:" Make some plan, bluff people, advertisement, and money will come." This is their business. They are not giving anything, simply bluffing. Just like crossword. They are engaged in making solution. You know that, crossword?
Amogha: The crossword? You mean the puzzle?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the whole day they are making solution. This is their means of earning money. I have seen it. (pause) (chuckles) He has taken that word very seriously, "fourth-class men." The whole civilization is condemned and producing fourth-class men. And that's a fact.
Amogha: And they stopped their (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes. In their religion animal-killing is strictly forbidden.
Amogha: Did Śaṅkara, did he physically force the Buddhists out of India, by force?
Prabhupāda: No.
Amogha: Or just teaching.
Prabhupāda: By argument, by teaching. (break) Just see how nice flower is coming from the sand. And they say there is no vegetation. What is the difference between this sand and that sand? Sand is sand. Huh? How they are coming? Wherefrom they are getting nourishment? If there no possibility of living being, who is coming to water it? Nobody is coming. In this place, flower, it is a good as the flower growing on the land. But they are growing in the sand, you see. You see actually in the sand things are coming out, and one rascal will say, "No, there is no life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the green leaves not falling down—the dry leaves falling down, under certain condition. So it is not the law of gravitation. Why the green leaves does not fall down? Only the rejected things are falling. The rejected, you also throw away, so nature is throwing away. Where is the question of gravity?
Madhudviṣa: When they go up in the space ship there is such a force holding the rocket ship down, they must have...
Prabhupāda: That is everything. Everything, everything will fall down on the ground, but the controlling power is the air. If the air is adjusted, then it will not fall down.
Prabhupāda: That depends on God. God is fully independent. He may not like. You cannot force Him. But it is our duty to request Him. You cannot force Him. If He likes... If He does not like, that is His will, because He is the supreme will. But God likes. If a devotee requests Him something, He likes to accept. That is God's mercy. He takes the devotee's prayer very seriously. Therefore our another process is to take the shelter of a devotee first. Because even one is inferior, not to be accept by God, but if a devotee requests, "God, kindly accept this fellow," God accepts. Mercy of saintly... Kṛpā-siddha. The Sanskrit word is kṛpā-siddha. He becomes perfect by the mercy of devotee.
Prabhupāda: (break) Wherefrom the force comes? Why don't you inquire? Why do you say that sometimes you are forced to commit mistake. So why don't you inquire wherefrom the force coming? Did you inquire that?
Devotee (2): I tried to, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: The force means there is Supreme, He is forcing. Without His sanction, you will be forced to commit mistake.
Hari-śauri: That force is kāma, lust?
Prabhupāda: No, force is there—God's desire or supreme will. You are trying to do something, you are trying your best. You are employing your full energy and all the means. Still, it is not done. Therefore the force is coming from God. Otherwise how you will explain? What is the explanation, that you endeavor, you did all that is possible by you, still, the result did not come? So how you will explain?
Hari-śauri: You must accept God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Brahmā created something called self-deception. Would self-deception mean that if I think I am forced to fall down, but actually I wanted to fall down, but I think, "Oh, I am forced"? Is that self-deception?
Prabhupāda: Force? Force means if you violate the rules, then you are forced. If you contaminate some disease, then you are forced to suffer from the disease. If you don't contaminate, then you remain safe.
Madhudviṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The spirit is supposed to be stronger than matter. The spirit is superior than matter. So it seems that... Well, what happens when the body dies? Is the spirit forced to leave or does it leave on its own accord?
Prabhupāda: No, it is by nature forced.
Madhudviṣa: But that is material.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Madhudviṣa: Isn't nature material?
Prabhupāda: Yes, material nature, yes.
Madhudviṣa: So how is material forcing something spiritual?
Prabhupāda: You have voluntarily accept her supremacy. Just like you have accepted some disease. So disease is forcing you. And if you cure, then it will not be able to force you. You infect some disease. Then you become forced by the disease to accept the miseries. But if you are not diseased, there is no question of force. If you become criminal, the police forces you. And if you are not criminal you have no business with the police. It is like this. Police control, controller—the controlling power upon me comes when I am criminal. Otherwise why police will control me? Therefore I voluntarily accept the control of police by my criminal desires. That is going on. That is material life.
Prabhupāda: I don't want to use my thing?
Madhudviṣa: He's saying that if someone does not want, that you don't want someone to use what you have. If someone tries to forcibly take...
Prabhupāda: No, that is another thing.
Prabhupāda: That is your foolishness. Why you should take permission of your father or mother? Your business is your business. Why you are thinking like that, "I have to take permission of mother, my wife, my children"? And who will give you permission? Nobody will give you. You have to take your own permission. That is the way. You have to think that "Now, what is the use of taking their permission? When I am in danger, will they save me?" Hariṁ vinā na mṛtiṁ taranti. "When I will die, they can save me? Then why shall I take their permission?" That is intelligence. Nature does not depend on your wife's or father's and relatives' permission. She does not care. When she will ask you, "Die now," you have to die. No question of permission. "Now your time is up, finished. Get out." No permission. You have to do it. Nature can await permission of Kṛṣṇa. Nobody's permission. Mama māyā. When the police comes to arrest you, it doesn't... the police doesn't care for anyone's permission. Only the government permission. That's all. Unless the government orders, they will arrest you. The police will arrest and take you by force.
Prabhupāda: So why do they agree to?
Harikeśa: They're being, more or less, forced to.
Prabhupāda: Forced?
Harikeśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is that Buddha philosophy, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa, stop all activities. Buddha philosophy.
Harikeśa: So someone who's actually following the scientific method, when he comes up to these bewildering conclusions about a devotee, he will be forced to inquire into the spiritual consciousness? Therefore we might be able to say this is a bona fide thing.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: Because they are bewildered—they will see the conclusions, they are bewildered—they will then have to inquire further, "Well, why is this? Why is this?" They will have to come to the spiritual platform to understand.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Ambarīṣa: Oh. So he takes birth as a cow again?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...finish his birth as cow, and who is killing, he becomes... He is stopping his progress, therefore he is punishable. Just like you have leased one apartment to live for so many years, and if somebody, by force, kicks out, then he is punishable.
Prabhupāda: ...the animals. Take, for example, the cows. If the master is Kṛṣṇa conscious they are not killed. And if the master is a rogue, they are killed. They have no knowledge how to protect themself. They take shelter of a master. So if the master is good, then their life is safe. And if the master is rogue, then they are killed. So it requires the leader. Formerly the kings were saintly, rājarṣi. Therefore there was peace. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. They are generally in darkness. They believe that "Somebody, this man, will give us protection." But the man is treacherous. He sits down on the post of giving protection, but he kills. This is going on. Therefore if the leaders become nice, Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be all right. (break) These rogues, by force, by device, they all occupy the government post. Formerly, Vedic, the king was trained up very nicely by the brāhmaṇas, guided by the brāhmaṇas, and they would do nicely. (break) ...now thousands of kings. The president, the secretary, the minister, this senator, everyone is king. Because everyone is in the business of exploitation. That's all. Formerly there was one king. Now, in the name of democracy, there are thousands of kings. And the poor citizens, they have to satisfy all of them.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa is helping us. Take advantage of it. (break) Vyāsadeva compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam for this purpose. Anartha upasamam sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaja. These lokasya ajānataḥ, people are suffering on account of ignorance, so to give them proper knowledge, he made this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (break) Who can become more learned than Vyāsadeva? Therefore he is known as vidvān, the most, supreme learned. He made this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam to help these rascals who are spoiling their life only in sense gratification. (break) Life is meant for tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed (SB 5.5.1). They do not know that our existentional condition is impure. The question does not arise that "I do not wish to die. Why there is death?" They are so dull-headed, this question does not... They are trying to solve so many question, but this question does not arise in their mind, that "I don't wish to die. Why death is forced upon me?" Inquire. Come on, all philosophers and scientists, come and make an inquiry commission, that "I don't want to die. The death is forced upon me. I don't want to become old man, and it is forced upon me. What is the reason?" Therefore they are rascals. The prime problem, they have set aside. Big, big scientists... That Professor Einstein and other, other, they are big, big scientists. They do not consider this question, that "I am a big scientist. So I am also going to die. So why it is?" That question, they have set aside. And they manufacture atom bomb to make dead very easy, not to stop death, but death-making very easily available. This is scientific.
Prabhupāda: That means it is unnatural. "I am eternal, but this death has been forced upon me. That is unnatural." That is intelligence.
Revatīnandana: Some time back in the newspaper... This old president of America, Harry Truman, died, and it mentioned that he was eighty-eight years old and that in the last eight years he had been in and out of the hospital ten times for surgery. So in eight years he had been operated on ten times. At eighty-eight years old he was still trying to live, and finally he died.
Prabhupāda: Just see, just see.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But these general, the students... You are going to study our students, but you see they are not smoking. Why don't you see...? (break)
Dharmādhyakṣa: ...making other people starve by eating so much meat so in the future the other countries might force us to stop eating meat so that we can use the grain to feed people. So actually materially, economically, socially, in every way it is very bad. They are realizing now.
Prabhupāda: And they will say that because they are not eating meat, they are weak in health.
Prabhupāda: Because by independence you can become foolish. Otherwise, there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do whatever you like. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Find out this verse in the Eighteenth Chapter. That independence is there. After instructing the whole Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, Kṛṣṇa gave him the independence, "Now whatever you like, you can do." Kṛṣṇa never forced him to accept the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā. He gave him the independence, "Now whatever you like, you can do." And he agreed. "Yes. Now my illusion is over, I shall act as You say." The same independence. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). "Now you do whatever you like."
John Mize: His thesis is that God is an intelligent moral force. But he avoided anthropomorphism by not projecting such properties as anger onto God. But he recognized personality in God. God is a moral intelligence and powerful.
Prabhupāda: So to become angry, that is also qualification of God, to become angry.
John Mize: Is...?
Prabhupāda: To become angry is also qualification of God.
Dr. Judah: Would you explain the other side of it, the fact that, of course, the Bhagavad-gītā was, has its setting on a battlefield in which Kṛṣṇa enjoins Arjuna to go out and fight his kinsmen because it is his duty as a kṣatriya.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because in the material world, for the maintenance of equilibrium of the society, sometimes killing is necessary. Just like fight, war. When the enemy has come to your country, you cannot sit idly; you must fight. But that does not mean that you are allowed to kill everyone as you like. That is a special circumstances when fighting must be there. Therefore the kṣatriyas are required to give protection. Like the government is keeping military, police, soldiers, that does not mean government is after killing only. That department will be utilized when there is necessity, not that government is meant for killing. Government has other departments also. But this is also maintained. If there is necessity, it should be utilized. So Kṛṣṇa, when He is on the battlefield, that was a necessity. He has got two business. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). Those who are demons, those who are disturbing elements, they should be killed. And those who are honest and peaceful, they should be maintained. But because it is material world, the world of duality, there are good and evil, so you have to curb down the evil. Sometimes force is required.
Jayatīrtha: The scientists will begin work on that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, let these rascals engage in that work, how a man can become pregnant. (laughter) "Yes, we are trying, we shall do in the future." They will say like that, yes. (break) ...there are women police. You know that? So they were guiding... I said that "If somebody captures your hand, then where is your police force?" Any young boy sixteen, seventeen years old can capture any two, three women, and he can control. And where is the police force?
Brahmānanda: They're now making women firemen.
Prabhupāda: No, in bad weather, towers, but simply by touching, such a big machine became in fire. (laughs) Unsafe everywhere. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadam (SB 10.14.58). Every step, there is danger.
Brahmānanda: One of our devotees... I was speaking to him. He was formerly in the air force, an electrician. And he was saying how there are so many wires in an airplane, and actually, when he was electrician, they would put the wires together very hastily in order to get the job done. And he said one of those wires could go wrong and then...
Prabhupāda: Finish everything.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Yadubara: So Kṛṣṇa is directly controlling that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. When He sees, "That fool wants Me, at the same time, material world. So take his material possession, everything, so that he will want only Me, that's all." Actually, it was done to me. (laughs) I have got practical experience. I did not want to take sannyāsa. I thought that I shall do business. And Kṛṣṇa forced me to take sannyāsa and all, everything, dismantled.
Prabhupāda: Logic is meant for learned man, and uneducated man, they want to force, "Yes, you must do it." With point of revolver, "You must do it." And educated man, they argue on logic. That is the difference. (break) ...queens of Kṛṣṇa, they are giving statement as maidservant of Kṛṣṇa. You have read that portion? When there was talk between Kuntī and queens of Kṛṣṇa, the queens presented themself as maidservant of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are fools. When a man's lusty desire is very strong, he commits, what is called, rape, and he becomes complicated in criminal activities. Kāma eṣa krodha eṣa rajo-guṇa-samudbhavaḥ. Why one is forced to do that? The cause is lusty desires, anger, greediness. So we are thinking we are master of this material world, but actually you are servant of these desires, kāma, krodha, lobha, mohaḥ. And that is māyā. He is acting as servant, but he's thinking, "I am master." That is māyā, which is not the fact. Just like yesterday we were discussing that the women, they are acting as instrument of men, and they are thinking, "We have equal rights." A man is utilizing her for his own purpose, and she is thinking "I am equal."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But sometimes it is also untrapped. But sometimes he is also free.
Prabhupāda: No, by nature, he is not mixed up with these material things, but he is entrapped by his free will. Just like we are staying here. We are not bound to stay here, but we have come here. Nobody has forced us to come here.
Devotee (4): Prabhupāda, we're in this material world, in this human body, we're having to work with this intelligence, with mind, material things. So there is a group of philosophers that say that actually because we're a product, our mind, the way we're thinking now is a product of our upbringing and our past, that actually we have no free will, but we're forced to think and act in a certain way.
Prabhupāda: Why you are forced?
Devotee (4): Because of conditioning.
Prabhupāda: Then that you have to admit that you are conditioned by some authority. When you are put into jail, you cannot act independently. You have to act according to the jail superintendent's order.
Prabhupāda: America, or any other part of the world, we are all spiritual being. We cannot be satisfied only with the bodily necessities of life. Naturally there is question, "What I am? I am simply this body or something else?" That question naturally comes in human mind. That is very good. A dog cannot think like that. Therefore in the human life it is necessary to question: "What I am? Why I am put into miserable conditions of life? I do not want it, but it is forced upon me. If there is any remedy, what is that remedy?" These questions are very big questions. So unless you, a human being, is awakened to these questions, he is no better than animal.
Prabhupāda: And even they are successful, what is credit? So many living entities are coming every minute, and if after thousand years, they can create one ant, so what is the credit? (laughter)
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, now the impersonalists, they will accept that there's something in that body that's different than matter, but they won't admit that that's a person. They say that it's just some type of energy force, or they call it consciousness.
Prabhupāda: But we haven't got to hear from them. You take lesson from Kṛṣṇa.
Rādhāvallabha: Each planet has its own gravitational force.
Prabhupāda: That may be. I say it is condition. Under certain condition... When Rāmacandra throws stones for a bridging, the stones were floating. The stones did not go down.
Rādhāvallabha: Well, we can see in these inborn laws of nature all these things are going on. We don't see where there is need of some person behind it. These things are going on. Each planet has its own gravitational force; therefore they are balancing each other in the universe.
Prabhupāda: You do that. You float one ball if you are so confident.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you don't accept and repeat it, then you become failed in the examination. Then you can't get a diploma. Then you cannot get a good job. So they force you to repeat it. (break)
Prabhupāda: Field. All of a sudden it became by chance a garden and beautiful, everything.
Prabhupāda: Testimony?
Brahmānanda: Yes. There are certain pending investigations. So he is eligible for being called to give testimony for these investigations. But on the plea of his bad health, therefore he is not being called. He is afraid actually. Right now he does not go to any social gatherings, he does not make any public appearances. He is afraid that as soon as he makes public appearances, then he will be called to give testimony. So he is actually being forced to live a very lonely life.
Prabhupāda: Lonely life means drinking. What he will do? (break) ...this was made by Napoleon?
Bhagavān: Yes.
Brahmānanda: So the arch is still here. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: People, they come to see the arch. Just like in Rome, so many broken buildings, thousands of men go to see them, and they get good income, tourist.
Prabhupāda: If you take my guidance I'll stay. Our guidance means on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. I don't manufacture. That is my...
Lalitā: (Bengali) ...prime minister already... (Bengali) This is my experience about Prabhupāda's ISKCON. I am a layman... (Bengali) How you are writing on... (Bengali) ...what you are. I am the life member. (Bengali) The member of the advisory counsel..."Who are you?" "I am a member of that council." "I see. I see." (Bengali) West Bengal Security Force ...is a very good report about Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Bengali) Very good report. "Please ask prime minister, allow them to stay."
Prabhupāda: Governor...
Lalitā: U.P.
Prabhupāda: U.P. (Bengali) They must understand the philosophy. So is that all right? So make it.
Prabhupāda: By force. By force now this tree is standing. He has to stand up here. It cannot move an inch.
Brahmānanda: Is that considered worship?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is.
Prabhupāda: They have been forced to forget Hare Kṛṣṇa by the so-called rascal leaders. Otherwise India is meant for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, the whole India. (break) ...scandalous these Māyāvādīs and next the politicians, killing the spirit of India. These Māyāvādīs teaching "Why you are after God? You are God." That's all. And he says, "Yes, I am God. Why shall I worship God?" This is the... And becoming God, when they do not get any relish of becoming God, then the politician says, "It is all useless. Come to the political field. Take daridra-nārāyaṇa-seva. That's all, finished." The Māyāvādī creates the field of atheism, and later on, the politician make them perfect atheist.
Brahmānanda: Why doesn't God force me to surrender?
Prabhupāda: No. That Kṛṣṇa is not a nonsense like you. Because Kṛṣṇa has given you little freedom He does not want to touch it. That is Kṛṣṇa. What He gives, He never takes it back. It is not a nonsensical award that "I give you sometimes; then I take it away." Kṛṣṇa does not do such. He has given you little freedom, so you can use it. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63), Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad..., "Whatever you like, you do." That freedom is taken by nature. You are human being. If you do not engage yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then nature will withdraw this privilege and you'll become a dog. Kṛṣṇa does not take, but His agent, māyā, will take it away. Just like the police is the agent of the king or the government. The government does not care what you are doing. But if you do something criminal the police will punish you.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot see them. Your philosophy is unless you see, you don't believe. That is your philosophy. But you do not consider what you can see. That is the defect of this imperfect world, that people do not think that they are imperfect. With all imperfectness, they think they are perfect. That is the defect. Therefore it is said, andha. One is blind, and he is becoming the leader of other blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Īśa-tantrya, by the laws of nature he is bound up very tight, hands and legs, and he is thinking he is free to think, free to see, free to... That is the defect. He is not at all free, completely under the clutches of material laws, and he is thinking that he is free. That is the defect. And when this sense comes, that "I am not free; everything is forced upon me," then he becomes human being. Otherwise he's a dog. Just like, you see, if a dog thinks he is free.
Dr. Patel: In our Vaiṣṇava religions this vidhi-niṣedha is a must right from the beginning.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is must. It is must. But you cannot force in the beginning. That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: And it is by His own free will.
Prabhupāda: Yes, as He likes. He likes to appear as fish, that's all. Not that... Ordinary fish, it is forced to take the body of a fish.
Prabhupāda: Because God has created cyclone, therefore He is perfect because you are to be killed, blown away with your all paraphernalia, with your all scientific laboratory and instrument. Go. Go to hell. That is perfection.
Cyavana: They are eager to find a solution. Therefore they are forced to speculate because they have no other way...
Prabhupāda: No other way.
Prabhupāda: Because you have to suffer. You are rascal. You must suffer. Therefore evil must be there.
Brahmānanda: Why doesn't He force us to be good?
Prabhupāda: Just like if the criminals and thieves say, "Why government has created this prisonhouse?" Is it very good argument? It is for you, rascal. You are criminal. You must suffer. Why it is to be abolished? Otherwise who will suffer? It is for your suffering.
Prabhupāda: It is tamo-guṇa. He knows everything; still, he is forced to act criminally. That is tamo-guṇa. Everyone knows that he will be punished. He has seen that criminal is punished. Still, he acts criminally. That is called ignorance. Heart is unclean. Therefore our first process is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), to cleanse the heart.
Cyavana: The slightest tinge of a material desire will force him to take another body. Is that it?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa will give him full advantage of enjoying this material world. Unless he is disgusted, he cannot. He'll not become disgusted. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Give up this." Personally, he is not going to be disgusted. māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa personally asks him, "Give up this business." Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). But we are thinking, "Eh! Why this man asking like this? Sarva-dharmān parityajya. I shall give up my business, I shall give up my family, I shall give up my country and simply surrender to Him? Oh, it is too much. Sophisticated." What is called? "Sophistry." What is sophistry?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sophistry?
Prabhupāda: Yes?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Half wise, half foolish.
Brahmānanda: Sophistry means some...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even by force?
Prabhupāda: Yes. By force if you give some good medicine, that is good for him. In my childhood I would not take medicine. Exactly like this, now also. (laughter) So I was given medicine by force in the spoon. Two men will catch me and my mother take me on the lap and then force and I shall take. I never agreed to take any medicine.
Prabhupāda: Why the thief goes to the prisonhouse? He knows that "If I go to the prisonhouse, I will be put into distress."
Cyavana: But the government is not strong enough to force him not to go, not to steal.
Prabhupāda: Why government is not strong enough?
Cyavana: The government doesn't have the power to control everyone. But Kṛṣṇa can...
Prabhupāda: No. Even if he's strong enough, you disobey. The government has made so many things that you cannot steal, the iron chest, but still, you are clever enough that you do.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Fried.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like yesterday. That's nice. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) ...things without Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dead body. Aprāṇasya hi dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam. It may be captivating to the foolish men, but it has no value. Because the person who is engaged in these things, he does not know what is the value of life, what is the goal of life. He is wasting time. The house will remain as it is; he will go to hell. That he does not know.
- na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ
- durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ
- andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās
- te 'pīsa...
- (SB 7.5.31)
The nature's law is different. That is acting in a different way, which you do not know. He is forcing you to become old. He is forcing you to die. Still, you do not know how much you are under the grip of the laws of nature. Such a foolish man, and you are engaged in building skyscraper. Just see. He does not take care that "I am being forced to become something against my will, and I am freely doing all this nonsense." Just like the dog. Dog is thinking, "I am free," running here and there. As soon as the master, "Come on." (laughter) Just see. Even dog has no sense that "I was jumping like free, but I am not free." That sense he hasn't got. So if a human being has not so such sense, what is the difference between him and the dog? Hm? This is to be considered. But they have no sense, no brain, no education, and they are still going on as civilized. Just see.
Prabhupāda: So he was right, your father.
Indian man: He was right. Yes. Well, you see, I didn't want to come back and get married and all that, you see? And then he forced me to get married.
Prabhupāda: Where you married? Here?
Indian man: Here, Durban.
Prabhupāda: You have got children?
Indian man: Yes. Two boys.
Prabhupāda: I was talking just now that the Indians here are better situated than in India.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sati rite.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That "Later on, after the death of husband in some places the wife was forced to go to the fire, so the Britishers stopped it. And they introduced railway for going to the pilgrims and so many, and they constructed bridges to make easy to go from one country to another." And people took it very seriously, that British government is very nice. And they were publishing in outside country that "India is uncivilized. We are making them civilized. And as soon as they are civilized, then we hand over the charge to them. That is our noble mission." And they were exploiting. All raw materials was being taken away and the necessities of India, especially cloth, was being supplied. And the local weavers, their hands cut off. So many thing they, tainting… And everything bad. Just like Jawaharlal Nehru. He became a first-class victim.
Prabhupāda: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya, then he is śūdra. That's all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Śūdra is also required.
Indian (4): So after, when he leaves this body and when he takes rebirth again, Swamiji, then he starts off all over again?
Prabhupāda: No, he starts... According to the body he will work. If he enters into the dog's body, he will work as a dog. If he enters in the body of a tree, he will work as the tree: stand up naked without any shame; you cannot protest, your branches will be cut off. So these things are there. What do they know about this science? Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You have to take a different body. He does not say what kind of body. And you can see by practical experience. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body. You have to enter one of them. That's all. So what you can do? The nature will force you, "Enter this body." It may be a better body or it may be an abominable body, but you have to enter another body. Where is that education that "I'll have to enter another body after death, and let me prepare what kind of body I shall have"? Where is that education? They are blind.
Prabhupāda: What is that "our theory"?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That the soul is the life force.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So how can we prove that? How can we make the spirit soul appear?
Prabhupāda: How can you bring life force? Have you brought? Then how you can question this? If you have brought life otherwise, then you can question. As you cannot bring life otherwise, you have to accept this. This is the proof. Not only that: because the soul is there, therefore I am talking with you. I am replying your inquiries. And when the soul is not there, even the tongue is there, even the ear is there, I cannot hear you, I cannot reply you. (break) ...instrument is there by which I talk, why he cannot talk?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The spirit soul is not present.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They don't want... They don't want anything, but it is forced upon him. That is their rascaldom. They don't want something, but it is forced upon him. Still, he says, "No, I am not under control." That is his foolishness.
Jñāna: All living beings are independent, but some choose to serve and some choose to disbelieve.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is use of independence. Otherwise what is the meaning of independence? The meaning of independence is: "If I like, I can do. If I do not like, I do not do." That is independence. That means independence. If you are stereotyped, forced to do, that is not independence. Independence means if you like, you can do it, if not—you don't like-don't do it. That is independence. So misused independence means ignorance. He does not know that "If I infect this virus of this disease I'll suffer." But he does not know, ignorance. So he infects and he suffers.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...given by God. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam. You have no intelligence even, so that is given by God. (Hindi) Let them become devotees. Why these old men, they are not coming? They are still after money? Amara ajñaya guru hana tara ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128), Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. So you have come to this country. Do something good for these Africans. Let them become devotee. Where is that attempt? The white men, they also came to exploit them, and you have also come to exploit them. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "No-para upakara." Upakara kara. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... They are not so advanced; make them advanced. That is real cooperation. (Hindi) (break) Just like every one of them is attached to remain in Africa, continuing to... But they are being forcefully driven away: "Go away." Attachment must be there. The Englishmen, they have got attachment, but they were forcefully driven away. Similarly, this conditioned soul, he has got attachment. And śāstra and śāstra... These people were driven away by śāstra,, by weapon, knife. That is śāstra. And śāstra is the same thing, but it is books. Therefore it is called śāstra. The original word is coming from śās. Sas means ruling, śās-dhātu. Śāstra, śāstra, śāsana, śisya. Śisya. Śisya means voluntarily accepting ruling. That is called śisya. The word is the same, śās. From śās, śisya. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāsana. These are. So sometimes by force, sometimes by voluntarily... So just like guru-śisya. The guru, he gives enlightenment, and śisya voluntarily accepts.
Brahmānanda: There was a man yesterday at Dabji's house who was the brāhmaṇa who was officiating. He is a very much caste conscious brāhmaṇa, and although he and Shah were the first ones to meet you at the Nairobi airport when you arrived, in Nairobi, as soon as he heard your philosophy, he has never come. He came the first day only when you first arrived, and since that day he has never come. And yesterday I think he must have just come because Shah forced him. But he does not at all like our philosophy that brāhmaṇa by qualification. He is very staunch—"brāhmaṇa by birth."
Devotee (5): They always say the Africans could never become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: How they are becoming?
Devotee (5): They don't believe.
Prabhupāda: Believe? You do not see even?
Devotee (5): But they say that "Oh, he will do it, and then, after one year, he will stop."
Prabhupāda: Well, that is another criticism. Somebody is eating nice yogurt. Everyone will say, "Oh, it is very nice. It is very nice, very nice." Another man says, "Yes, it is nice, but after three days it will be sour." (laughter) You rascal, you consider for the present. What "after three days"? Means he's a bad critic, so he could not find out any fault. Everyone says it is good. So "After three days it will be bad." This sort of criticism. So you have already become bad. You were doing service to others.
Prabhupāda: Quality, you'll understand first of all come to the quality. Without having quality, how he'll understand the quality? You follow the instruction of your spiritual master, of the śāstra. That is your duty. Quality, no quality—it is not your position to understand. When the quality comes there is no force. You will have a taste for chanting. You will desire at that time, "Why sixteen round? Why not sixteen thousand rounds?" That is quality. That is quality. It is by force. You'll not do it; therefore at least sixteen rounds. But when you come to the quality, you will feel yourself, "Why sixteen? Why not sixteen thousand?" That is quality, automatically. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura was doing. He was not forced to do. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He requested, "Now you are old enough. You can reduce." So he refused, "No. Up to the end of my life I shall go on." That is quality. Have you got such tendency that you will go on chanting and nothing to do? That is quality. Now you are forced to do. Where is the question of quality? That is given a chance so that one day you may come to the quality, not that you have come to the quality. Quality is different. Athāśaktiḥ. Aśakti, attachment. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī says that "How shall I chant with one tongue, and how shall I hear, two ears? Had it been millions of tongue and trillions of ear, then I could enjoy it." This is quality. Quality is not so cheap. Maybe after many births. For the time being you go on following the rules and regulations. It is being done by force. Where is the quality? So you wanted to understand quality. This is the quality. You'll not be forced, but automatically you'll desire. That is quality. I am writing books. I am not being forced by anyone. Everyone can do that.
Prabhupāda: We are talking of this verse, that if this is the composition of the body, these things are available anywhere. Why don't you create life? Therefore he is no better than the dogs. He has no intelligence that "How this combination of blood, urine, stool, and bone, and muscle can create life?" They are thinking that a combination of matter can bring life force. That is the so-called scientists' theory. So these things are available in large quantity, so why don't you create life? Therefore go-kharaḥ. Their intelligence is not better than the cows and the asses from the very beginning. If they are not cows and asses, how they can think of that combination of these material things can bring in life? When a man dies, find out if there is scarcity of stool or scarcity of urine or scarcity of blood. Bring it and inject it.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another thing. That is another thing, that with their this sputnik, how they can go in four days fifteen millions miles?
Dr. Patel: You see, in the cosmos, the whole cosmos is as big... Modern scientists understand it by what we call the force of attraction and repulsion. When you go in between the two, there is no attraction, repulsion. Then you just have this and it goes on.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: It is force, that "You must be beaten with shoes." That is not līlā. Nobody says, "Let me play this līlā and you beat me with shoes." (laughter) No sane man will do that. When a man is punished, that is by force, superior force. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). This is force, prakṛti, nature's. You cannot say that "I don't care for the prakṛti." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ.
Dr. Patel: Prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. It is God's prakṛti.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The matter, material nature, is forced upon him. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). He is accepting different bodies according to the contamination of material nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. That he does not know. Ahāṅkara-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). He does not know that there is a superior karta, daiva netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantu deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). So he is forced to accept a certain kind of body by the material nature. That he does not know. This is non-Aryan. Like dog. He does not know that why he has got this dog's body. He simply has learned how to bark, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Disappointment. Disappointment. People are becoming more and more poverty-stricken. This is the...
Haṁsadūta: They are forced to accept it.
Prabhupāda: The European economic problem is failure.
Prabhupāda: Because if you want to be attracted, God has made in such a way that both of them are attractive to one another. That's all. You want to be attracted; therefore woman is made attractive. And the woman wants to be attracted; man is attractive. This is nature's arrangement so that you may be bound up by this attraction. Tayor miṭha hṛdaya-granthiḥ mām. You are already bound up, and by this attraction you will be more tightly bound up. Puṁsāṁ striyā mithuni-bhāvam etad. The whole material attraction means a man's attraction for woman and a woman's attraction for man. But when they are seeking, "Where is woman, where is woman, where is woman," and the woman is seeking, they come here to make this business. Huh? And when they are actually attracted or united, then this bondage, material bondage, will become more tight. Therefore the Vedic civilization is how to slacken it, and ultimately, by force, separation, sannyāsa. Because unless they are separated, there cannot be any spiritual advancement. That is the whole process. The unity is bondage. I have written a letter that man is good, woman is good, and when they are united, they are bad! (laughs) Both of them are bad. And the material world is taking, "This is the best thing." But actually that is not the thing. Man is good, because he is part and parcel of God, and woman is good, part and parcel of God, but when they unite, they become bad.
Harikeśa: No, no. I mean there's no need for any organized Communist movement, because according to their philosophy...
Prabhupāda: Yes, because they're fools. They're as fools. They are simply criticizing the capitalists, that much. That much, there is something ideal that the state property should be equally divided. That's a good thesis. But they do not know that it is not the ultimate solution. You do not know who is the proprietor. You do not know the proprietor. These things belong to Him. You are using it. I am thinking that "You are proprietor." But actually you are not proprietor. He is proprietor. If that is the position, then I take it from you that: "You cannot possess. I shall possess." Then what is my possess? The same thing. As you took it, took it out from this man, so I took it, take it from you. So my position is the same. If you cannot find out who is the actual proprietor, then you may change hands. The problem remains there, that it, it does not belong to you. You are forcibly snatching from the proprietor, or without knowing the proprietor, you are making arrangement. What is the value of this arrangement?
Harikeśa: So it's just the animal philosophy of the strong dominating the weak...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it.
Harikeśa: Well, he's actually saying that this is the task of science. He's not speaking about the idea of there's life or not in the sun. What he's thinking of here is, for example, a sensation. A sensation is an actual fact. Just like if..., there's a law that says equal and opposite reaction to actions. If I push some thing, some object, that, as this object is being pushed this way, there is simultaneously an equal and opposite reaction which is the force between the object and the floor, and the reaction comes in heat or friction...
Prabhupāda: Well, who made this arrangement?
Harikeśa: So that arrangement is a law.
Prabhupāda: Well, that law. Who made this law?
Harikeśa: Well, it's just a physical combination of matter.
Prabhupāda: Physical combination, then these physical activities are more powerful than your ideas.
| Page Title: | Force (Conversations 1967 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Rishab, Mayapur |
| Created: | 10 of Jun, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=203, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 203 |