Prabhupāda: So that is very important in that sense. The next question is, "So, what is the significance..." I think I've already explained this. "Is there a probationary period for Kṛṣṇa consciousness or does one attain this enlightening according to his own rate of development?" Yes, everything requires little enthusiasm. Just like a boy is going to school with no enthusiasm, and a boy is going to school with nice enthusiasm. One boy is passing in the first class, first division and another boy is failing or he's passing in the third division. So the probation period, of course, I've already explained: to associate with us, the second stage. First stage is faith and respect, the second stage is association. That is probational period. And so far attaining enlightenment according to one's rate of development; that development depends on your enthusiasm; how far you are serious. But one should become very serious. That is the law in every sphere of achievement. So for attaining to the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one should be very much enthusiastic. Yes. He must attain to the perfectional stage in this life. And then one should be patient also. Enthusiasm does not mean if I attain something immediately the result is immediate. No. The result may be delayed but we should not be disturbed.
Enlightenment (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: We ask people... We don't say that "You give up your, this religion. You come to us." But at least you follow your own principles. And... Just like a student. Sometimes in India it happens that although they have passed M.A. examination in Indian university, they come to foreign university to study more. So why does he come? To get more enlightenment. Similarly any religious scripture you may follow, but if you get more enlightenment here in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, why should you not accept it if you are serious about God? Why should you say, "Oh, I am Christian. I am Jew. I cannot attend your meeting." Why should you say, "Oh, I cannot allow you to speak in my church." If I am speaking about God, what objection you have got?
Journalist: Well, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm sure you know and I'm certainly aware that it's only recently that, for example, a Catholic couldn't even come in here because of some other church. That's changed.
Prabhupāda: Now I have written one letter to Pope. You have seen that? Where is that paper?
Hayagrīva: It's in here.
Journalist: Oh, a letter to the Pope. Did he answer it?
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: What is that? You want to hear? Come on, sit down. So there is no difference. Lord Jesus Christ says that he is son of God. So there is no quarrel between God and God's son. So he says that "Love God," and Kṛṣṇa says, "Love Me." The same thing. (laughs) If you say that "You love me," and your wife says that "Love my husband," there is no difference of opinion.
Yoko Ono: But about the knowledge, I'm a bit worried about it, if you have to, you know, learn Sanskrit and all that, and that's the only way to get enlightenment... I mean, what do you do about people who are not sort of skillful in learning languages and things like that? Would that not at all... I mean, I thought that it...
John Lennon: It's translated, anyway.
Prabhupāda: Translation is there.
John Lennon: So you've got to take a risk.
Yoko Ono: But he said, then why don't you go and...
John Lennon: So then you've got to take the risk of reading a translated one.
Prabhupāda: We speak of illusion, māyā. This is illusion, that "I am this body and anything in relation of this body..." I have got special relationship with certain woman, so I think, "She is my wife. I cannot do without her." Or another woman from whom I have taken birth, "She is my mother." Similarly father, similarly sons. In this way, country, society, at the most, humanity. That's all. But all these things are illusion because they are in bodily relationship. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhātuke sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Those who are passing on on this illusory condition of life, they are compared with the cows and the asses. So our first business is to wake up the general mass of people from this illusory condition of life. So Back to Godhead is specially meant for that purpose. We are pushing our Back to Godhead to the general mass of people to the first condition, first status of enlightenment. And then those who are becoming enlightened, coming forward, "Swamiji, or the society, please make me a member. Please initiate me," he is coming forward, understanding his position. So that is second stage, to train him how to awaken his, that dormant love of God. That is another stage, training. Sambandha abhidheya. Then, when he is actually in love of Godhead, then he can understand the higher status of loving exchange between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa and the Vṛndāvana. This is third, third stage, yes. And the fourth stage is paramahaṁsa stage, who is always enjoying. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti... When one is completely merged in the ocean of love of Godhead, he will relish in any condition of life Kṛṣṇa, present.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: They are misled. They're being misled. Misled in this way, that this human form of life is specially meant for understanding God. The animals are not very (indistinct), but the present leaders they're keeping all the human being in the animal condition of life. Their chance of becoming conscious about God is being sacrificed, being misled, by so-called economic development, plans. All this economic development means, they're meant for this bodily comforts. Any department of knowledge at the present moment, they're simply aiming at giving some artificial comfort to this body. But these rascals, they do not care to know that however I keep this body comfortably, I'll have to give it up. And after giving up this body, what is my next position, they do not know. They do not know. This is darkness. This is darkness. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an educational movement to give enlightenment to the people at large, to understand the values of life. Not to live like animals, eating, sleeping, sex life and dying. This is animal life. This is the best humanitarian welfare activities: to make people understand scientifically what he is, what is God, what is our relationship with God. So the Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary study of this science. So this should be presented very scientifically. One who knows perfectly well about this Bhagavad-gītā. These are the (indistinct) crucial point. That one... Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). There's so many very touch(?) point. If they are not very, explained nicely people will remain in darkness.
Prabhupāda: That, that, I am pointing out, that all intelligent persons, during the British Empire, they came out. The whole aim was to defy the Indian civilization.
Karandhara: They call it the "Age of Enlightenment."
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: After the fifteenth century, they call it the "Age of Enlightenment."
Prabhupāda: So the Britishers, they wanted to rule over India, and they were advertising, at least in India, that: "We are making you civilized. Before British rule, the Indians were rude, primitive natives." That's all. That is their propaganda. The whole propaganda was to make the Indians known that: "We are giving you life and civilization. Before this, you were not even human beings." That is their propaganda. So they accept this literature, but they date within one thousand years, one thousand-five hundred years. Even this rascal, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he dates Bhagavad-gītā within two thousand years. That's all. Perhaps I am the first person making propaganda that Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. I am the first person. All other so-called scholars, they have dated within two thousand years. (pause) There was a book: "England's work in India," written by one rascal Indian, M. Ghosh. In that book... That was taught in the schools in our days. The theme of the book is that before British rule, India was not at all advanced in any way. The incidence of satī... Satī. That was very elaborately explained.
Prabhupāda: No, inner meaning is there. But they would not explain that. Simply the dark side, they would explain. And prove that the Indian civilization was very crude and primitive. It has no enlightenment. That was British propaganda. Even during national movement, they bribed one American woman, and she wrote a book: "Mother India." Do you know that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I, no...
Prabhupāda: Ah. "Mother India." She described all the blackmailing of Indian social activities, and Gandhi remarked it: "Drain Inspector's report."
Brahmānanda: What?
Prabhupāda: "Drain inspector's report."
Brahmānanda: Drain?
Prabhupāda: Drain, that sewage water...
Brahmānanda: The sewer.
Prabhupāda: Sewage water.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We worship everything. We worship everything, see Kṛṣṇa everywhere. We don't see the tree. We see Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore the tree's also worshipable because Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy both are worshipable. Therefore we say Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare means Kṛṣṇa's energy. We worship everything. In our childhood we are taught by our parents, if there is small grain and if it is strut (?) on the feet, we shall pick it up and touch on the forehead. We are taught like this, how to see everything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We cannot therefore see anything wasted, anything misused. Why you are preaching? Why we are after so many rascals? That his life is being misused. Let us give him some enlightenment. This is our mission. Or let him go to hell. Just like Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they're engaged in meditation or in the Himalayas, but we have come to Los Angeles. Why? This is our mission. Oh, these things, these people are being misused under māyā, let him gain some enlightenment. This is our mission. We are teaching that, how to utilize everything for Kṛṣṇa. How to understand Kṛṣṇa in everything. That is our mission. See Kṛṣṇa in everything. Yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra. Everything is there in Bhagavad-gītā, why don't you read? Sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati, yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra, "Anyone who sees Me everywhere and sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati... and everything in Me, he's perfect."
Prabhupāda: He must be. So many attacks. How he can tolerate. He's in the post. This is happening.
Kṛṣṇa-bhāminī: This idea of democracy came at a time in French history called the Period of Enlightenment, and it was introduced by...
Prabhupāda: Hm? Democracy?
Haṁsadūta: Democracy was first introduced in an age which they call the Age of Enlightenment in French history.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Kṛṣṇa-bhāminī: The idea was that everyone should be pleased, that everyone should take...
Prabhupāda: No, where is the... In France, everyone is pleased? That is the imagination. You see. Vox populi, peoples' government. People, generally, general people, they are fools and rascals. How a government of fools and rascals can improve? It's not possible. They're ignorant. Abodha-jāta. They have no knowledge. The knowledge of eating, sleeping, mating, defending, that is animal knowledge. Everyone knows it. How to eat, nobody requires any education. How to sleep, nobody requires and any education. How to have sex life, nobody requires any education. How to defend, nobody requires education. They are not subject matter of education. Everyone knows it, how to do it. The modern education means they are on this subject matter. Just like that rascal, Freud?
Prabhupāda: That chance is in the human form of life. So if people are not educated to this goal of life, that is not helping the country or the society or the human beings. If we simply engage them in the activities of animal life—how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life, and how to defend, no more—then it is simply advancement of animal civilization. But those who are thinking good for all humanity, they should note this defect, that simply giving him nice food, nice shelter, nice sex facilities and nice defense, his problem of life is not solved. He should be given enlightenment about God consciousness. And if he is educated in that way, if he, by next life, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. This education is lacking. So we are trying in our small endeavor. But if leading personalities like you of the society, they try to understand this philosophy scientifically, critically, and take it seriously, they can, there will be great benefit for the human society. The program we have got, but we are not leading personalities. You are all leading personalities. At least in England. Lord... This group, House of Lords is there. It was always there. In previous days also. They were called amātyas. All leading men of the society, they used to give advice to the king. And brāhmaṇas also. I think the knighthood means that. What is the meaning of this knighthood? Eh? Personal advisors to the king?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also, just like, Kṛṣṇa comes. Similarly Kṛṣṇa's son, God's son, sometimes He comes. Sometimes Kṛṣṇa's great devotee, servant, he comes because the spiritual enlightenment to the fallen souls, that is required. So in the human society, when the living entity gets the chance of having this human form of life, he has got the facility to understand his position, how to go back to home, back to Godhead. So that facility is offered by God, by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, we have got these books. We have got spiritual master, we have got ācāryas. Just to enlighten these fallen souls to go back to home, back to Godhead.
Guest (1): Now you did say, I think you did just tell me earlier, that I think you said Kṛṣṇa or somebody last came five hundred years ago.
Prabhupāda: No, Lord Caitanya.
Guest (1): Pardon?
Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya. He is Kṛṣṇa, He came as Kṛṣṇa's devotee.
Guest (1): I see, and that was five hundred years ago.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): Is it...? Do you expect Him to come again?
Prabhupāda: So you have heard something about our movement?
Ambassador: General, generally, in general.
Prabhupāda: All over the world, they are expecting something spiritual enlightenment from India. That is a fact. But our government is callous in that respect. Therefore any so-called swami, yogis, come from India, they gather to receive him, to hear something from him. Yes. This is the tendency, that... The real thing is that people expected something... Still they are respectful to India on account of the spiritual enlightenment. That I have studied. Still they go to India to have some spiritual enlightenment. And actually we have got this in India. If anything has to be learned about spiritual, then it is only India. That has been admitted by one Chinese gentleman. He's a learned scholar. His book is recommended in New York University. I forget his name. He has written in his book that "If you want to learn something religion and spiritual, then you must go to India."
Ambassador: It must be Lin-yu-tang, no.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Ambassador: Was it Lin-yu-tang?
Prabhupāda: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Without preaching, without understanding philosophy, you cannot keep your strength. Everyone should be thoroughly well-conversed with the philosophy which we are putting... That means you must read thoroughly every day. So many books we have got. And Bhāgavata is so perfect that any verse you read, you get a new enlightenment. It is so nice. Either Bhagavad-gītā or Bhāgavata. But it is not ordinary writing.
Umāpati: I have tried to put your Bhagavad-gītā into some schools, and they say, "Well," some of them, if they do have a Bhagavad-gītā, they say, "Well, we have a Bhagavad-gītā." I say, "This is an entirely different understanding of the Bhagavad-gītā," and they say, "Well, it's just somebody else's opinion and we don't have that much interest in a variety of opinions on the same book."
Prabhupāda: It is not the opinion. We are placing the..., as it is, without opinion.
Umāpati: Well. Those are those terms. It is very difficult to overcome those...
Prabhupāda: So preaching is always difficult. That I have repeatedly saying. You cannot take preaching very easy-going. Preaching must be fight. Do you mean to say fighting is easy thing? Fighting is not easy thing. Whenever there is fight, there is danger, there is responsibility. So preaching means... What is the preaching? Because people are ignorant, we have to enlighten them. That is preaching.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: But we are feeling new pleasure in every moment. Take any other chanting, you cannot chant more than few hours. But the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra we can chant perpetually. So unless there is new enlightenment, how we can do that? (break) You can preach here, and then we are starting on the..., by the fourteenth. We shall go together to India. Is that all right? What do you think?
Karandhara: Are you bringing your boys over there?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Gurukṛpā: They're going separate.
Karandhara: Oh.
Gurukṛpā: If we go the other way it's cheaper.
Prabhupāda: Which way?
Karandhara: Through New York.
Prabhupāda: (break) I cannot go there. You see? As if three hundred miles away.
Gurukṛpā: (break) We saw from the plane.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: That is not a university education. That is due to their coming to India.
Dr. Patel: They are...? They come to India and... They don't do it there?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, they come here for spiritual enlightenment, and they meet these rascals, gañjā-eater sādhus. That is the beginning.
Dr. Patel: But they have introduced that in American universities.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I know. This is the beginning. They learned this... They thought that this is spiritualism.
Dr. Patel: I thought they have taught us.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Jayapatākā: No, they imported...
Prabhupāda: Your gañjā, gañjā-smoker, these so-called sādhus and just like... They have done this. By following these rascals, they are doing it. But they do not know who is sādhu...
Dr. Patel: And LSD was invented by Indians, no?
Mr. Sar: (indistinct) ...other thing, you know.
Prabhupāda: Marijuana. So they learned this gañjā smoking... They came here for spiritual enlightenment, but they do not know who can give them spiritual enlightenment. They went to these rascals, gañjā-smoker, having long beard...
Dr. Patel: But there is a great smuggling racket the whole world, Swamiji.
Prabhupāda: No, no. When they... I know that Allen Ginsberg. He learned this...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, in India.
Prabhupāda: But he's a great poet. He learned this gañjā smoking from India.
Dr. Patel: The English boys, the French boys, the Germans, all of them have started in the... They don't come here as hippies. This is an international disease.
Prabhupāda: They learned from America. That's a fact. The hippie movement started from America.
Dr. Patel: Now, hippie movement started from America. That means they started first. Not after coming to India...
Prabhupāda: But they learned it from India.
Prabhupāda: But they learned it from India.
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupāda: They came here... I have got many students. They came here for spiritual enlightenment, but they learned gañjā smoking and keeping high, big beard. You know. There is a sannyāsa-āśrama in Delhi. And people contribute them gañjā. Not only they, I know... My father, he was also attached to so many sannyāsīs. So in Kālī-ghāṭa, there was a sannyāsī...
Dr. Patel: Sannyāsīs, those nāgā-bābās, they smoke.
Prabhupāda: Not nāgā... He was a regular sannyāsī, Māyāvādī sannyāsī. So my father was giving them the saffron cloth and gañjā. People accept it that this is one of the items.
Dr. Patel: That gañjā should be given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, so badly impressed. So this gañjā-smoking has spread all over the world as the hippie movement.
Dr. Patel: I thought that the hippies started from those, this (indistinct) part.
Prabhupāda: No, no. The hippie movement was started from India. You see so many gañjā-smokers, they are sādhus, bābā-sādhu.
Prabhupāda: Because they are innocent. The children, they are innocent. So if possible, give them some enlightenment, kṛpā, to become merciful upon them. So far children are concerned, they hear, they try to learn. Just like in Dallas, whatever we say, they accept. They do not protest. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then?
Girirāja: "Vasudeva thought of his wife as follows: 'For the present let me save the life of Devakī and later on, if there are children, I shall see how to save them.' He further thought..."
Prabhupāda: This is the consideration. By policy if he could save his wife, that first. He was following like that...
Girirāja: " 'If in the future I get a child who can kill Kaṁsa, just as Kaṁsa is thinking, then both Devakī and the child will be saved, because the law of providence is inconceivable. But now someway or other let me save the life of Devakī.' " (break)
Prabhupāda: ...jumps. In the village also there is experience, when there is fire, it jumps over another house, leaving one house in the middle.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice, beginning of spiritual understanding.
Robert Gouiran: So I left them to let things go and to go with the...
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that you went there for some spiritual enlightenment. Is it not?
Robert Gouiran: Spiritual achievement?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guru-gaurāṅga: Enlightenment.
Robert Gouiran: Enlightenment. Of course. And I got the first...
Yogeśvara: Taste.
Robert Gouiran: The first small light of this enlightenment.
Prabhupāda: That I am asking you. What is that light?
Robert Gouiran: It's not complete yet. It's not complete yet.
Prabhupāda: No. Whatever you have received, that I want to know. Then I can understand where you stand on the spiritual platform.
Karandhara: But they don't have the same historical... I don't think they're considered the same historical personality. I studied Zen myself a number of years, and they don't distinguish one particular individual in one particular period of time as being the Buddha. All the way back in history as long as history goes, any man who's come to the state of enlightenment has become a Buddha. It didn't begin anywhere. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says he doesn't give any special meaning to Buddha. Sometimes Buddha is with them, sometimes Buddha is a concept of God like the Christianity they call God, or Buddha is all this disciplic succession. He doesn't give any special meaning to the word Buddha.
Prabhupāda: No, no, buddha, actually buddha means knowledge, "one who knows," that is the meaning. So that is existing always. Now, we are talking your (sic:) Jain Buddha. Jain Buddha. No? What is the...?
Karandhara: Zen. Zen's a later development. The school of Zen started...
Prabhupāda: So we are trying to study this Zen Buddha. Buddha means, ordinarily, knowledge. Budhā bhāva-saman... (break) (French)
Karandhara: The Zen school is a liberalization of the old Buddhist doctrines. Previously, hundreds of years ago, to completely follow the Buddhist path one had to renounce all activity. He had to go away from civilization and live in hermitage. Zen...
Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa. Finish everything.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: We shall eat also. (break) So I request you to come every Sunday and take feast with us. (break)
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He wants to know, for example, if I eat meat today, if I lose my chance for enlightenment.
Prabhupāda: No, you do not lose. You hear from the enlightened. Then you will be enlightened, and you will automatically give up meat-eating. Therefore our business is to hear from the enlightened. That is the first business. Other things not immediately needed. Even if you cannot give up meat-eating, still, you hear from the enlightened.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He asked me how much time I've been in the movement.
Prabhupāda: How much time?
Hṛdayānanda: He asked me how much time...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Hṛdayānanda: He wanted to know if we make the yogurt ourselves. He said we must be specialists. He said we should put it in bottles and make "Hare Kṛṣṇa yogurt."
Prabhupāda: That is also good. (laughter) Because they will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and that will have effect. Hare Kṛṣṇa is transcendental vibration, so anyone who will vibrate the sound, he will get the benefit.
Prabhupāda: So do that. Don't approach the cheater guru, bluffer guru, and be cheated. Stop this business. This has spoiled the whole spiritual atmosphere of the world. Take guru, the supreme guru, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, when in Mahābhārata when Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira performed rājasūya yajña, in the rājasūya yajña one person is elected the chief guest. So in that yajña many big, big demigods were present, and Bhīṣmadeva was present, Vyāsadeva was present, and many, many other saintly person, brāhmaṇa, from the whole universe were present. And Kṛṣṇa was decided to be accepted as the... Everyone agreed to accept Him as the chief guest. And the Śiśupāla, he protested. Then everyone was angry to kill him. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted the guru by everyone. By our ācāryas, recent ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... I am not speaking of the loafer class, but those who are recognized ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya... They accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru and follow His instruction and try to convince others. "Others" means even your family members. That is success of life. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. Why should you lead your life blindly? This human life is meant for enlightenment, supreme enlightenment, and this is supreme enlightenment, to understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā and preach it as far as you can. If not, you can preach amongst your family members. This is perfection of life. What is that verse? Ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Any association which is Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can join.
Indian man: Thank you for the enlightenment. But I have got one other doubt. You had told that some great scholars like Mahatma Gandhi had confused and they did not believe in the Kṛṣṇa living, He ever lived, and Dr. Radhakrishnan and another also were not clear in enunciating the theory of Kṛṣṇa. I would like to know whether Kṛṣṇa living or not living, is it very important? And will the movement depends upon one Kṛṣṇa living, positive...
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. Kṛṣṇa is never not living—He is living. Otherwise how He can be Kṛṣṇa? But if you do not know whether He is living or not living, that is your lack of knowledge.
Indian man: Do you believe Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: No, first of all settle up this one question, that Kṛṣṇa is always living, and if you do not know whether Kṛṣṇa is living or not living, then your knowledge is imperfect. Therefore your knowledge will not be accepted, because you are imperfect. That is the point.
Indian man: When we speak of Bhagavad-gītā, do we mean...
Prabhupāda: You cannot say, "Kṛṣṇa is living or not. That doesn't matter." No, it matters.
Prabhupāda: No, just like if you want to understand sun, say... what is called? Geography? Then you have to learn from the person who knows geography. You cannot learn from a person who has superficially studied. Then you have to go to the person who knows scientifically, astronomically, that sun is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this planet. You have to go to the astronomer. How far the sun is situated from us? So you have to go to the particular person who knows it. You cannot say that his knowledge and the child's knowledge, who is seeing the sun as a disc is the same. That you cannot say. If you want to know further enlightenment of the sun then you have to go to the person who is studying sun scientifically. So one who has studied the sun scientifically, his knowledge and a casual person seeing the sun, his knowledge is not the same. That you cannot say. Although everyone is seeing the sun, that's all right, but the knowledge of the sun, there are different.
Prabhupāda: No, if you want to study something, and suppose you are sometimes from India, the same subject he's going to study in foreign country, farther enlightenment, it is also not necessary that to study a subject matter more and more, we have to remain in the same jurisdiction. If I am actually anxious to know more and more, it doesn't matter whether I get the knowledge from Mohammedan or Hindu or Christian, it doesn't matter. Knowledge is knowledge. When a student goes from one country to another to get farther enlightenment on a subject matter, he does not think that "I'll have to learn it from here, from my university." For knowledge, progress of knowledge, you can go to any university. Because knowledge must be scientific. It is not restricted within the jurisdiction of a particular university. So, sun we are seeing, everyone, the sun, getting heat and light but if anyone is interested (to) know how the heat is coming, how the light is coming, what is the situation of the sun globe, whether there are living entities or not. They're also subject matter. So if you can get enlightenment of the sun, we should not restrict ourselves that we have to study with this jurisdiction of my university, or my country, or my society. If the knowledge is there, we should be prepared to go forward. Mm.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And who will become fish? That they do not know, how the transmigration of the soul is going on. They cannot explain wherefrom the fish are coming, wherefrom the trees are coming. Everything in darkness. And this civilization, this dark civilization, is going on, in the name of civilization. They cannot explain what is death, what is next life. Sometimes they say, "It is nature," but how nature is working they do not know. All darkness, mūḍhā na abhijānāti, mām ebhyaḥ parama. The birds and beasts are also catching fish, and they are also catching. What is the difference? What is the difference? They have got this nice human body, and they are acting like birds and beasts. And they are kept in darkness. There is no enlightenment. This is the modern civilization. (pause) The smell. What is the smell?
Amogha: If we go up there, I don't think it will be there.
Prabhupāda: Some decomposed things? And this is not good for you. (pause) They fish this side?
Amogha: The birds? Seagulls.
Prabhupāda: He has got the human body. He also... These birds are catching fish. He does not know that he has got other business.
Amogha: At the school, the students say, "Why not eat fish? Jesus was passing out fish, in the Bible. And we all catch fish. We like to catch fish." And then we tell them about meat. So, they think that we are loosing a great pleasure, that we cannot eat meat.
Prabhupāda: You tell them, that you will be very merry—that's all right. But do you want to stop these merry affairs all of a sudden? Ask them, what will they reply?
Prabhupāda: Therefore we should advocate that Bhagavad-gītā is not like that. It is coming in the same form as it was taught to Arjuna. If you challenge that "How you know that it has not been changed?" the ācāryas are there. The ācāryas are there, and they are accepting. Therefore it is correct. We have to follow the ācāryas. So when we see the ācāryas have accepted, then we accept. All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, before that other ācāryas also, they accept. They never say that "This was not in the original scripture. It has been changed." You don't find any such statement of the ācāryas. The best thing, therefore, if you want a religious system, Bhagavad-gītā is coming without any contradiction, change, for the last five thousand years. You accept it. Other scriptures are (unclear), and there are so many doubts, so many interpretations. So, if you want real religious system, this is the scripture spoken directly by God, and accepted by all the ācāryas, so take it. If you are really after God, so you take enlightenment from this perfect scripture. If you want truth, it doesn't matter wherefrom it is coming. I must accept the truth.
Paramahaṁsa: The Christians openly admit that the Bible has been changed, but they also have a lot of doubt about our scripture.
Prabhupāda: No, even they doubt, the Christian religion is now dead. That we see practically. So many churches are not working. Nobody comes there. Nobody comes.
Prabhupāda: This is bhakti-yoga.
Guest (2): Well, doesn't it mean that someone has to worship that person to be able to attain the enlightenment or Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is worshiping a person. Everyone is... But we have to worship the Supreme Person. That is perfect. Everyone is worshiping a person. Suppose you are employed somewhere. You have to worship your boss. Otherwise no employment.
Guest (2): Oh, well, I consider it as a mutual...
Prabhupāda: It is mutual. It is mutual.
Guest (2): It's a mutual kind of support. But worshiping in a sense of religion or in a sense of a higher person, it's a different matter.
Prabhupāda: Worshiping means appreciating high qualities. Worshiping is not blind. If I know that you have some high qualities, I worship you.
Guest (2): Do you worship to a person or what? To his doctrines or...?
Prabhupāda: Worship means person. Worship does not mean imperson. Unless there is a person-to-person relationship, there is no question of worship.
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Something is there which is working. Now that may be mistake. You call it soul or mind. That is next understanding. But the machine is not working independently. That should be understood first. Then how the machine is working that will be next chapter. So they have no understanding even that how the machine is working. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). That they do not know, mūḍhas. So if you do not know how the machine is working then what is the value of your education? Education means enlightenment. You do not know what is the final cause, that huge body is working as nature, so many planets, so many big, big planets like sun, moon, they are floating in the air. Who has made this arrangement? They are... We see every day. They will never accept God is the original cause. That thing does not come to their brain. They are putting forward different theories and that is being accepted. One theory is accepted today, and tomorrow, "No, no, this is not. Here is another, advanced theory." That advanced means he does not know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. A little mistake will cause disaster. Therefore education means to protect him from committing mistake. This is education. And if you keep him in the darkness, what is the value of education? (aside:) Get that switch on. Education means enlightenment. One should know "What I am? I am this body or something else other than the body?" This is education. That is self-realization. "Oh, I am not this body; I am soul. And I am simply working for the body? What I am doing for me? I say, 'It is my body,' so I am working for my, and what for the 'I?' " Where is that education? If you simply take care of "my" and don't take care of "I," is that education? That taking care of "my" is done by the dog, and taking care of "I" is done by the human being. That is the difference. The dog, as soon as he sees another foreign dog in that neighborhood, he begins barking, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" So we are doing the same business in the immigration department: "Why you have come? Have you got visa?" This is civilization, but the dog's business. "Gow! Gow!" In Paris I went without visa, and they detained me for four hours. Well, a human being has come here. Why the immigration law so strict? But that is advancement of civilization.
Prabhupāda: This is the most important message. Because you are not this material body. Suppose you have got this shirt. If you simply try to maintain this shirt, is that very good intelligence, without taking care of your person? Similarly, if we are spirit soul and the body is just like dress, so the whole material world is, everyone is engaged to take care of the body. Nobody knows what is spirit soul, what is this need. Nobody knows. All these educational institutions, they are blind. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). And the whole system is also blind. If a blind man leads another blind man what is the benefit? No benefit. Therefore in your country, every country, it is a blind education. No spiritual enlightenment.
Prof. Hopkins: What is the solution? What is the solution? Devotion to God...
Prabhupāda: First of all you know what is spirit. Then as soon as you know that you are spirit then wherefrom the spirit comes, or wherefrom everything comes? Then it comes to the question of God. And then we understand what is our relationship with God. And then if we act according to that, then it is perfect life.
Prof. Hopkins: So that you would... You would see the Gītā then as a guide to understanding.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Why they were committing suicide?
Yadubara: Because everyone was very depressed. This is supposed to be enlightenment, a place of knowledge. But everyone was very depressed.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Being taught that they are the body. I went to a Catholic university and they taught me in psychology, and it was a priest. And they were teaching this, that I am a bodily process. And he never challenged the textbook. So when one thinks he's the body and if he's intelligent, a very depressing thought. Even in the Catholic universities they use these textbooks that teach this materialism.
Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ: (SB 7.5.31) "Blind man is leading other blind men."
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the jīva soul desires to enter the material world, is that an illusory desire?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Desire means he wants to enjoy, but he is not enjoyer. When he comes to enjoy, he becomes servant. That is illusion.
Dharmādhyakṣa: So when the jīva soul descends into the material world, it is like a hallucination?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We get experience daily. In the daytime we have forgotten the night dream, and night dream we forget in this daytime existence. So which is correct? Therefore it is hallucination.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are publicly suiciding, and others are silently suiciding. The suiciding policy is going on. Somebody manifests; somebody does not manifest. That's all. If the human life is wasted for sense gratification, that is suicidal. Because you got the opportunity of enlightenment and you live like dogs and cats, this is suicide. (break) This, what is called, hydrogen bomb manufacturer, he is thinking that he is successful in his life by discovering this hydrogen bomb. but he does not know how to save him from death. So it is suicidal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are simply expert at accelerating death.
Prabhupāda: Whatever he has done, so he could not save him. He cannot save him from death. So what is the use of this scientific knowledge? If the dog is also going to die and he is also going to die, so where is the difference of his scientific knowledge?
Paramahaṁsa: Coincidentally, the original purpose of the hydrogen bomb was to prevent death, to end the Second World War as soon as possible.
Prabhupāda: How they can prevent? That he does not know, how to prevent. He can accelerate. That's all. (break) ...puts before us, "Here is your problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Solve it." Where is that scientist? They avoid the real problem and take some childish problem. (break) ...not any hidden problem. It is the open problem. Kṛṣṇa puts it: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, The real seer will see to these problems. There is no answer or solution of these problems. Where is the solution of these problems? Where is the biochemist or the psychologist or the atom bombist?
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) She is spiritually inclined. She goes to so many spiritual men, but they cannot give her guidance. That means she has some inclination. That I can understand. Just like these for..., American boys, they are after spiritual enlightenment and all the swamis and yogis who went there simply exploited them because they have no knowledge, neither they are prepared to take knowledge from the authority, Kṛṣṇa. That is their defect. That is their defect.
Lalitā: They have become Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore they could not give any...
Lalitā: Everybody is Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.
Lalitā: If you go anywhere, he is Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: He is Bhagavān.
Lalitā: Now full Kali. (Bengali) Kali-yuga (Bengali) Everybody is busy with their duties.
Prabhupāda: Ah, they are engaged.
Prabhupāda: He...? He has not seen his father. That is my reply. Now, the person whom he accepted as his father, he is lying there on the bed. And now he is crying that "My father has gone." That means he has not seen his father. So this is going on. The whole world movement is on the basic principle of that living force which makes the body so important. Either a politician or a philosopher or a scientist, so long the living force is there, the body is important. And as such, the living force is gone, then it is simply a lump of matter. So we are taking care of this lump of matter, not of the living force. This is the mistake of the whole civilization. We do not know what is that living force. There is no scientist, there is no philosopher, nothing of the sort. Simply as child we cry, "Oh, my father has gone away. My father has gone." Why did you not see who is your father or who is your son? Where is that education? Where is that enlightenment? Where is that university? Therefore I say the whole civilization is being misdirected. They do not know what is the important factor in civilization.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...given by God. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam. You have no intelligence even, so that is given by God. (Hindi) Let them become devotees. Why these old men, they are not coming? They are still after money? Amara ajñaya guru hana tara ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128), Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. So you have come to this country. Do something good for these Africans. Let them become devotee. Where is that attempt? The white men, they also came to exploit them, and you have also come to exploit them. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "No-para upakara." Upakara kara. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... They are not so advanced; make them advanced. That is real cooperation. (Hindi) (break) Just like every one of them is attached to remain in Africa, continuing to... But they are being forcefully driven away: "Go away." Attachment must be there. The Englishmen, they have got attachment, but they were forcefully driven away. Similarly, this conditioned soul, he has got attachment. And śāstra and śāstra... These people were driven away by śāstra,, by weapon, knife. That is śāstra. And śāstra is the same thing, but it is books. Therefore it is called śāstra. The original word is coming from śās. Sas means ruling, śās-dhātu. Śāstra, śāstra, śāsana, śisya. Śisya. Śisya means voluntarily accepting ruling. That is called śisya. The word is the same, śās. From śās, śisya. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāsana. These are. So sometimes by force, sometimes by voluntarily... So just like guru-śisya. The guru, he gives enlightenment, and śisya voluntarily accepts. That is guru-śisya. Similarly śāstra means weapon: "If you don't follow, then I shall cut your throat."
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. What is the use of such education?
Indian man: So your education which you gave may be something like..., not like that.
Prabhupāda: Education means to do the right thing, not the wrong thing. That is education. Education means enlightenment, to know what is right, what is wrong. That is education.
Harikeśa: It's 7:15 Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Harikeśa: It's 7:15.
Prabhupāda: On the street there is sign board, "Keep to the left," or "Keep to the right." This is education. This is education. One must know how to run the car which side. Education means enlightenment. If you foolishly do something, immediately you become criminal. So education means to enlighten them to know what is right, what is wrong. That is education. But people do not know that. What is the meaning of education? (break)
Prabhupāda: After all, understanding... Therefore they are mūḍhas. They have to understand. If they do not understand, they remain mūḍha. That is human life. The human being should understand that "I am mūḍha, so I'll have to learn." And the Vedas says, "Then go to guru." Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet: (MU 1.2.12) "You must go if you want to learn." And if he remains mūḍha and speculates, then he remains mūḍha. He never gets the enlightenment. He remains continually... Mūḍhā janmani janmani mām aprāpyaiva (BG 16.20). He cannot get God. Life after life, he will go on like that, mūḍha. Asuriṣu-yoni. Asurika-yoni. He'll remain completely ignorant about God, what was his function, only function to understand God during this life of human form of life. And so-called science wants to keep him rascal and mūḍha, that's all. Therefore we fight so much with these rascals, big rascals. They want to keep them. He is mūḍha, he is blind, and he's trying to lead other blind men. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām (SB 7.5.31). Rascal does not know that he is hand and bound..., hand and leg, bound up by the laws of material; still he denies, that "I am independent. I can think independently. I can avoid God," and so many things. Therefore they are mūḍhas. He cannot do it. In every inch he is bound up, and still he is thinking, "independent." That is the first-class mūḍha. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25).
Prabhupāda: Just like we are writing so many books to give them enlightenment. This is the process. It is an educational movement, how to overcome these obstacles. That is the sum and substance.
Richard: Do you think there are any other ways which are equally effective?
Prabhupāda: No.
Richard: Isn't the spiritual benefit that people in the āśrama here get...
Prabhupāda: First of all, you must know what is spirit. They do not know even what is spirit.
Richard: Well, okay, there are many contented people in the world, there are many people who are at peace with themselves...
Prabhupāda: Contented-ass is contented. He has no problem. The best-contented living being is an ass. He has no complaint. So that is not civilization.
Richard: That is not what?
Prabhupāda: That is not civilization, or life.
Prabhupāda: No. Any science, any knowledge who is trying to give enlightenment about God, there is the same line as we are doing.
Richard: Right, but those people who study say, okay, to use an example, the Pope. Now there is a man who has dedicated his whole life, publicly, personally, spiritually, however you define it, to Christianity, specifically to the Catholic Church. Now apparently, and for all intents and purposes, his life seems to work for him.
Prabhupāda: The thing is, the Catholic Church is the original Church, I think.
Richard: The original Christian Church, yes.
Prabhupāda: Then why there are so many varieties?
Richard: Well, because...
Prabhupāda: Now hundreds and thousands of churches are there.
Prabhupāda: Because they are spiritually enlightened. That is the cause of brightness. And materially involved-moroseness. Because it is ignorance. Material life means life of ignorance. And spiritual life means life of enlightenment. That is the difference. Material life is called tamas. Tamas means darkness. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya. This is the Vedic mantra. Don't remain in darkness. But people cannot understand. "I am living in the light. Why I'm darkness?" Darkness means without any spiritual enlightenment. That is darkness. So the Vedic injunction is "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." The light is my spiritual life, and material life means darkness. Because he does not know what is going to happen next. You are under the laws of material nature. The nature will act according to the association you make, exactly. You do not know that you are infecting some contagious disease. You may not know it, but it will act. In due course of time, you'll develop that disease and suffer. Similarly, without knowledge, in ignorance, imperceptibly we are associating with a certain law of nature, and we shall be victimized. We may not know it, but we shall be victimized. That is the life of ignorance. A child does not know that if he touches the fire it will burn and it will cause some disease, some sore. He does not know. But he, somehow or other, if he touches fire, these things will come. This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness. The Christian theologicians, they say that "Why shall I suffer for my...?"
Prabhupāda: The Christian theologicians, they say that "Why shall I suffer for my...?" They do not believe in the karma, fruitive activity. But that means ignorance. They have no sufficient knowledge. Karma is there and effect is there, but they do not know it. Poor fund of knowledge. Therefore it is failing. They have failed, these Christian priest, to explain everything philosophically. So advanced Westerners, they are now educated in science philosophy, they are not attracted with these dogmatic views. So to remain in ignorance is animal life. To be enlightened is human life. And the topmost enlightenment is to understand God and to love Him. That is the topmost enlightenment. Unfortunately, there is no education to know what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. This is modern civilization. Ignorance. A civilization of ignorance. They do not know what is what. Simply speculating, wasting time, talking all nonsense. This is going on in the name of education, but actually they are in ignorance. They do not know what is what. They are reading so many philosophical speculation, horrible condition of the so-called philosopher, scientist. Simply "I believe," "In this believe, that believe." You believe.... Believe something.
Prabhupāda: Then you are unable. You have to accept it. But as far as possible we can give them help. That is not the question. Question is, those who are not handicapped, they are rotting without education, without enlightenment by keeping themselves as fourth-class, fifth-class men. Why not train them to become first-class men? That is the point. If one is blind, you cannot give him eyes. If one is lame, you cannot give him leg. That is beyond your ability. That is another thing; we shall deal with them later on. First of all, those who are born as human beings, why should you keep them as third-class, fourth-class men?
Kern: So this is a development. Saint Ignatius did the same, somewhat. When he began, he sought the leadership. And he sought the intelligent, so that they might do what.... Obviously, you do it also, seeking the leadership that can then teach. We call it sometimes elitism, and this is perhaps a good word for it.
Prabhupāda: So you find out the verse, satyaḥ śamo damas titikṣā, the qualification of brāhmaṇa. Here, it is meant, the first class, second class, third class, fourth class. Yes.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."
Prabhupāda: This is first class. Again repeat that.
Prabhupāda: I don't say monastery. I'm speaking that this is the way of training. Even a third-class born or fourth-class born could become a first-class man. This training should be given. There must be an institution how to become peaceful, how to become truthful, how to become honest, how to become religious, how to become believer in God. Why not this institution? They have opened institutions how to learn to deal the hammer, technology. But if, in the society, there is no first-class man on this basis, then who will guide? If there is no brain, then who will guide the hand or the leg?
Scheverman: So your particular plan is then to provide this kind of enlightenment, this kind of direction and education, through the ascetical process in which your group is involved. Yes. We, of course, have made efforts along this line through our schools and through our religious communities that have been successful more or less depending on efforts given to it.
Prabhupāda: The second-class man is also described, who is the second class.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the kṣatriyas," or the administrators.
Prabhupāda: This is second class. They are not first class, they are second class. First class is above mentioned.
Prabhupāda: We cannot get many followers. Because everyone is under this impression, "I am this body." And to get him released from this conception is not so easy job. So we cannot expect many thousands and millions. Only selected fortunate people will understand it. But everyone can understand it. It is very simple thing. But the modern education has made them so dull brain, they cannot understand, neither do they try to understand. That is the difficulty. Matter, subject matter, is very simple thing. I am changing bodies, but in spite of my change of body, I am the spirit soul existing. This is the first understanding. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), that I am not dead on account of my body being finished. My childhood body is finished, my boyhood body is finished, my youth-hood body is finished, but I am existing. I can remember that I was in such body, I was in such body, in such circumstances. When I was a child I was talking like this, I was jumping like this. But because that body is finished, I cannot do that. Now I have got a different body, I cannot jump like a child. This simple truth. But I know that I was jumping. That is not dream, that's a fact. But we are educated in such a foolish way that we cannot understand this simple truth. That has to be amended. Otherwise, there is no question of enlightenment in the human society.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are now asking... In Melbourne the priest asked me, "Swamiji, why Christian religion is dwindling? What we have done?" I told them, "What you have not done?" (laughs) They were little insulted.
Hari-śauri: That first time you visited that monastery, the man that was in charge, the head monk there, after you had visited, a short while later he left and he went to India looking for enlightenment.
Prabhupāda: Perhaps it was some shock when I said that "What you have not done?" They received me very well. (break)
Kīrtanānanda: Altogether about an hour and half. About forty-five minutes more.
Prabhupāda: What is being done with Hayagrīva's house?
Kīrtanānanda: I bought that from him. There are a few devotees there right now.
Prabhupāda: No, the other house.
Kīrtanānanda: Which one? The original farm?
Prabhupāda: No, not original.
Kīrtanānanda: That's the one I'm talking about.
Prabhupāda: Tulasī?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The same verse again in the Second Chapter."The compilers of the Upaniṣads speak very highly of the impersonal Brahman. The Upaniṣads, which are considered the most elevated portion of the Vedic literatures, are meant for persons who desire to get free from material association and who therefore approach a bona fide spiritual master for enlightenment. The prefix upa indicates that one must receive knowledge about the Absolute Truth from a spiritual master. One who has faith in his spiritual master actually receives transcendental instruction, and as his attachment for material life slackens, he is able to advance on the spiritual path. Knowledge of the transcendental science of the Upaniṣads..."
Prabhupāda: Where is that boy? You are hearing?
Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupāda.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Knowledge of the transcendental science of the Upaniṣads can free one from the entanglement of existence in the material world, and when thus liberated, one can be elevated to the spiritual kingdom of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by advancement in spiritual life. The beginning of spiritual enlightenment is realization of impersonal Brahman.
Prabhupāda: With pilot. 747, you have to pay expert pilot, but here with pilot. Make this. Simply talking. Not only mosquito: at night we see so many, just like full stop, the same mechanical, flying from here, there, from here moving. Airplane, exactly in the form of... Similarly standing and... That is our challenge. Challenge this. Go in public meeting. Bring these so-called scientists, "Why don't you make any...? Why do you talk all this nonsense and cheat people?" Simple. Why first of all Sunday? There is no Monday first. I think never this question's raised, anybody. Fool's paradise. The Western world is fool's paradise. Actually this is the time they are getting enlightenment. Otherwise they are all fool's paradise. No social life, no religious life, simply get money somehow or other and enjoy wine, women, meat. That's all. This is their civilization. Do live comfortably; there is no harm. But why misconception?
Prabhupāda: We are giving all, all round enlightenment. Bhagavad-gītā is full of information from all standpoint. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). We are now in such a downtrodden position, the whole human... He must accept. There is... The civilization is doomed. (pause) What do they explain about so many varieties of life? How do they come?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call by mutation. It's called mutation.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mutation is... They say DNA molecule is the... called master molecule. But somehow during the course of...
Prabhupāda: Somehow.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Then they're finished. As soon as they "Somehow," it is not science. It is rascaldom. Then it is useless. "Somehow," "Maybe," "Perhaps." (indistinct).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow there is a mistake in the... (laughs)
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Everything is mistake.
Interviewer: Could you go over each of the three functions you've been mentioning-eating, sleeping and sex—and tell me what specifically, what rules or hints that you would give people who are seeking spiritual enlightenment to aid in their lives in these ways.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is our books. It is our books. We have got enough matter to understand. It is not a thing that you'll understand in a minute.
Interviewer: I understand you sleep very little. You sleep three to four hours a night. Do you feel that this is what any person who is spiritually actualized will also realize?
Prabhupāda: Yes, we see from the behavior of the Gosvāmīs. They practically had no material necessities. This eating, sleeping, mating and defending, practically they had no such thing. They are simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business.
Interviewer: Engaged in Kṛṣṇa's...?
Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa's business or God's service.
Bali-mardana: He's setting the example of the previous spiritual masters.
Interviewer: Well, what I was interested in is why... Has he found that three to four hours is the necessary time period to sleep?
Bali-mardana: She's asking why is three to four hours the amount that you sleep. How have you reached that standard?
Prabhupāda: Yes, so final, that unless you are spiritually realized, you do not know what is the final end. The final end is that we are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are in contact with this material atmosphere. So our final aim is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Unless we know this and we practice how to return back again to Godhead, then we have to remain within this material world, transmigrating from one body to another. Therefore the human intelligence is meant for understanding the spiritual identity and the goal of life and act accordingly. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is an educational movement to enlighten the people from gross ignorance to the highest enlightenment of spiritual understanding.
Interviewer: Is it an internal educational process or external?
Prabhupāda: It is internal but externally... Just like externally, behavior makes internal inclinations. If you associate with some bad company, the internally also you develop bad propensities. And if you associate with good company, then internally you develop good propensities. So internally, externally, they are interrelated. By external behavior we influence our internal energy. And by internal atmosphere we get the external body.
Prabhupāda: Contribution.
Bali-mardana: We're going to give you a transcript.
Interviewer: Do you think that...?
Prabhupāda: Now, just you try. We are trying to give enlightenment about the driver of the car. Because the driver of the car is always important, either on the car or without the car. And people in general they are giving importance to the car only. They have no knowledge of the driver. The car requires petrol and the driver requires nice food. So people in general, when they see that we are not giving petrol to the driver, they are surprised.
Interviewer: When they see that you are not giving a role to the driver?
Bali-mardana: Petrol.
Interviewer: Oh, petrol.
Prabhupāda: They think that petrol is the food of the driver. (laughter)
Bali-mardana: In other words to satisfy the body does not satisfy the person within the body.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they misunderstand, "Oh, they are not giving petrol to this man for eating." But the man's eatable is not the petrol.
Prabhupāda: We have got the only concern. Others, they are simply avoiding. They have no responsibility. They are talking all nonsense. We have got real responsibility. These people are being misguided, they are kept in darkness. Let us try to give them some enlightenment.
Mike Robinson: Yes, but apart from giving spiritual enlightenment, do you also..., are you also concerned for people's physical well-being?
Prabhupāda: That is automatically done.
Mike Robinson: And how would you go about doing that? Would you help the sick people?
Prabhupāda: Just like if you have got a car to drive on. So naturally you take care of the car also. But not that you identify yourself, "I am this car." That is nonsense. They are doing that. They are taking too much care of the car, thinking that the car is one. He forgets that he is different from the car, he has got different business. He cannot eat the petrol and be satisfied. He has got different eating. But these rascals, they are thinking that "Petrol is also my eating." And they are drinking petrol and dying, that's all. Petrol is meant for the car, and for you there are so many fruits, flowers, milk. But if a man thinks that "I am the car, I must drink this petrol," then he is doomed.
Prabhupāda: No. The thing is that religion means to understand God. If one does not understand God, then his religion is still defective. Religion means to understand God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). When you understand God and your relationship with God, then it is perfection of religion.
Bhūgarbha: He said that he feels very thankful that you've given him such a long darśana. He's very happy that you've given so much enlightenment in many subjects. He's just passing through with his daughter. He'd like to stay tomorrow to see the installation of the Deities, but he has to go to a Tibetan temple in the south of France. On Saturday he has to be there, so he has to drive, and he said that he's found the Tibetans are also very good devotees.
Prabhupāda: Very good. Jaya.
Mr. Sahani: It is knowledge, that we don't have the knowledge, or enlightenment that in that watermelon there is something which is worth, or it is only that we don't want to do it, or we don't want to take the trouble?
Prabhupāda: That chance is there. You can take the watermelon and cut it, but before that doing if you give it to somebody else, that is your misfortune.
Mr. Sahani: No, fortune is something which we say...
Prabhupāda: No, I am talking of misfortune. That the perfect knowledge is being distributed by Kṛṣṇa, but we are so misfortunate we do not take it. That is my fault. Kṛṣṇa...
Mr. Sahani: Misfortune is again, is not in the hands of human being.
Prabhupāda: No, misfortune is your creation. Fortune... Man is the architect of his own fortune. So you can create your fortune and misfortune. That is the world, going on, so many people, they are working, somebody is creating fortune, somebody is creating misfortune. So anyway, when Kṛṣṇa directly is giving you the knowledge, perfect knowledge, why don't you take it? Is it not misfortune?
Prabhupāda: Neophyte means that kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. One worships the Deity very nicely but he does not like to do good to others. Neither he knows who is Vaiṣṇava. He's neophyte. He is, in the arcanā, he's fixed up, he's doing very nicely. Arcāyām eva haraye. Yaḥ śraddhā..., pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate na tad-bhakteṣu. One does not understand who is bhakta. Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. And how to do good to others. But he's doing the Deity worship very nicely. Sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ. He's prākṛta. But he can advance when his, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, he understands "Here is a Vaiṣṇava. Here is an innocent man. He should be given some enlightenment." That is preacher. When he'll feel for others. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa. "I am thinking of these rascals who are averse to you." Tato vimukha-cetasa. And that is Vaiṣṇava. Advanced devotee. For me I have no anxiety. Naivodvije para duratyaya-vai... There may be so many dangers. I don't care for them. Naiva udvije. "I am not disturbed by all these things." Udvije. Para duratyaya. Even it is very insurmountable, dangerous position, I don't care. How? Tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ (SB 7.9.43)." Because when I think of You, chant of Your glories, I don't care for that." Then you appear to be morose? "Yes." Why? Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa. "I am thinking of these rascals who are averse to You. How to do... They are engaged in false activities, māyā-sukhāya, for temporary happiness of the senses. So I am thinking like them. Therefore I am morose. For me I have no anxiety." And actually, what Prahlāda Mahārāja... He was thrown to the fire, he was thrown from the hill and underneath the... He didn't care. "Whatever you'll do I'll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Andhra. Hmm. Dear Sai Baba, just recently in the Blitz paper, published on—give the date—we were surprised to find one article "God is an Indian." And you have claimed to become an incarnation of God to save the human society. What is the ground of your claiming as incarnation? And what you have done to save the human society? Will you explain for enlightenment of us. Or many of us. We have got the list of incarnations recorded in the Vedic scriptures and their respective activities also. So where is that record in the Vedic scripture about your appearing as incarnation? Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation is fully described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnationship or give... What it should be?
Pradyumna: Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnation...
Prabhupāda: There may be so many, but I mean to say Lord Kṛṣṇa is incarnation, so avatāratva. So what is the English? Avatāratva?
Pradyumna: The incarnationness or quality of being an incarnation, but that is not... The quality of being an incarnation is not... The most literal is incarnationness.
Prabhupāda: Therefore say that. Lord Kṛṣṇa's incarnationness is fully described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Similarly, Lord Rāmacandra's incarnationness or Lord Buddha's incarnationness, Lord Caitanya's incarnationness, we have got full information in the Vedic literatures.
Prabhupāda: I am going there at six.
Doctor: Words of enlightenment.
Hari-śauri: Have you got any of Prabhupāda's books?
Doctor: I have got some. I bought all the volumes of translation of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I have got all of them. But some of them have not arrived from United States, the latest ones. And I have got...
Hari-śauri: That's very nice.
Prabhupāda: You are staying in New Delhi?
Doctor: I stay in the Hague, and come to New Delhi when there are no cases.
Prabhupāda: Hague?
Doctor: Holland.
Prabhupāda: Holland. That is the international court?
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That all right. Nice. But sometimes, if somebody differs, that is not very palatable .
Guest (5): No, no, Swamiji. There is no... We welcome you there. I told Mangala when she came that we are not preaching a particular thing. We are going there to serve the people who come who are intellectual.
Prabhupāda: For spiritual enlightenment. That's nice.
Guest (5): Yes. And practically since many, many years our camp is considered as one of the best from all point of view. Hygienic arrangements, food quality. We don't use dalda or anything. We have the pure ghee. There are people who give with heart.
Prabhupāda: Suppose if you give us one camp, so how many men we can provide there?
Guest (5): At least 50 to 100 people we can accommodate.
Prabhupāda: No.
Guest (5): Or if you want more...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Our men will not be fifty to so much. Suppose for us, if you spare one camp, so how many men we can accommodate there.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: We have admitted. But Christianity has fallen. Here is the real religious system.
Dr. Patel: They have fallen into the trap. They have forgotten Christ's teachings. (break) What about me... You'll get up on horse? That is enlightenment... (break)
Prabhupāda: Above your and our.
Dr. Patel: That's right. That is... All religious scriptures are above, undoubtedly.(?) It's meant for the humanity in general. And the Christianity is meant for humanity. Christ died for the humanity, not for a particular race... (break)
Prabhupāda: Woman's nature is the same everywhere. In spite of your women being so elevated, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has said, "You don't trust them." Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca. That means nature is the same.
Dr. Patel: It is a system of custom.
Prabhupāda: And Urvaśī was explaining Purūravā about woman's nature...
Dr. Patel: That sanctity of fact, not to us.
Prabhupāda: Fortunately, our men cannot have sex cult even up to the point of death.
Prabhupāda: Huh? You have done already upasannān. So is Kṛṣṇa unable to maintain you? Why should you go to this blind man? So we go not for our maintenance. We want to engage his hard-earned money to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is our mission. Not for this belly. For belly we refuse to go anywhere. You'll find in Kumbhamela, still there are sādhus, they are not going anywhere. And they are starving? We go-gṛhināṁ dina-cetasām—"This rascal is absorbed in the thought of comfortable life, and he has taken only these wife and children, everything. Give him some other..." This is our mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa.' Let him go there and sit down and talk with him and give some instruction of Kṛṣṇa. This is our... We are not going for this belly. (Hindi) They are criticizing that "This man is empty stomach, and he has come to me." What does he care for empty stomach? No. Even they insult that, "They are empty stomach," it doesn't matter. It is my duty to give him some enlightenment about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Never mind. Let him insult. Nityānanda Prabhu, He was injured. Still, He said, "All right. You have injured. I don't mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa... "I don't mind you have injured, but I request you that you chant." This should be missionary... But they are thinking, "These people, empty stomach, they have come to us. We are... We don't require any God. We have got industry." This is going on. Yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī. Find out this verse, Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: So poor fund of knowledge. Accident? Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. "A man and woman becomes lusty, they have sex, and it, the body, the form, comes out. So you can cut it and then eat it." Very horrible condition of the human civilization. It is the only institution throughout the whole world who are trying to deliver people from this ignorance. We are the only. All bogus. They do not know anything, what is religion, what is happiness, what is spiritual life. Nobody knows. No... But that was covered. Now we are opening religion. The thing was there. It is not our invention, neither we can invent. But it is still unknown, and therefore they are unhappy. Their primary problem, where to live, how to eat, how to cover—that we shall take charge. Then what is the problem? You have got free boarding, free lodging, free cloth, and so much enlightenment. What do you want more?
Prabhupāda: That's his... He doesn't come down. He's already there. He does not come down. Just like the sun. The sun does not come down before me, but you can see him. In this way give them enlightenment. Sun doesn't require to come down, but sun is so bright and so prominent that you can see. Similarly, God doesn't require to come down. He's already present. Simply we have to make our eyes to see Him. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena (Bs. 5.38). When one is competent enough by developing his love for God, he can see always. God is visible everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's everywhere. So there is no difficulty to see. But simply one has to possess such purified eyes to see Him. Otherwise He can be seen anywhere. He can be seen within the atom even. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. That is God. He is present everywhere, but we must have the purified eyes to see, we must have the purified ears to hear Him. Otherwise God is everywhere.
Pṛthu-putra: So in order to purify their vision, chanting and prasāda will be sufficient.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: This book has already gotten scholarly reviews even before it's published, so we printed them on the back cover. It says, "Readers, be of good cheer. To those of you who have surveyed in confusion the trackless path of Indian philosophy, this volume offers hope and respite. You are holding in your hands a reasonable and highly readable account of the particulars of Vedic thought. Read and find enlightenment." By Professor Jerry Clack, Department of Classics, Duquesne University. And another one... This professor is very favorable. Dr. Thomas Hopkins of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. He saw me several times.
Rāmeśvara: Franklin and Marshall. He wrote, "I am impressed by Satsvarūpa dāsa Goswami's presentation. His initial chapter is one of the best statements available on the importance of the guru in transmitting spiritual knowledge." They have already taken hundreds of orders for this book, and it will be... It's being printed right now. It's at the printer right now.
Prabhupāda: These two books are very important. (chuckles) Everything improved. (leafing pages)
Gargamuni: Keep showing more.
Rādhā-vallabha: More's coming on the truck.
Prabhupāda: Ramakrishna Mission, in the beginning they asked me, "You be in coat and pant." Otherwise nobody will hear me.
Prabhupāda: That's all. And then go to hell. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So after jumping, when this body is finished, he is going to accept another body offered by nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). Rascals, they do not know how nature is working. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). Making plan and wasting time, wasting their valuable life. At least, this institution which we have started to give this enlightenment, they must be maintained in India in a first-class standard, that at least some intelligent persons can take advantage. They are all fools, rascals. They cannot take. All the duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. That is already described. Narādhamas will not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But there are persons who are not narādhama. For them there must be. Diamond shop is not for everyone, but there are some persons who can purchase diamonds. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). It is not meant for everyone. So this is India's culture. At least, these men should be conscientious that "Let this Bhagavad-gītā culture be maintained in pure form." There is cultural department government. They are sending dancing party. You see. Real culture. And to make show they will pose themselves as great student of Bhagavad-gītā. So we are making alone a little tiny effort, but it is being appreciated all over the world. That is our encouragement. Our books, our philosophy, our religion, America has accepted: "Yes, it is Indian. Enough." (?) It is not sentiment.
Prabhupāda: So we are preaching that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Our preaching is simple. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the Supreme." We say, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme." That's all. We repeat. We don't manufacture. What is the use of manufacturing? I am imperfect. Whatever I manufacture, that is imperfect. So better to repeat the words of the perfect. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He said, "Every one of you become guru and deliver your surrounding persons, either you are in family or in neighborhood or in society or in nation, as much as you can." Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). So whatever limited circle, you just become guru and deliver them. Deliver means deliver from the ignorance. Everyone is in ignorance, dehātma-buddhiḥ. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). So we have to teach them that "You are not this body. You are pure soul. Your business is different." And that is enlightenment. That is the business of guru. So we can do that business. And how to do it? That is... Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You haven't got to manufacture anything. What Kṛṣṇa has already said, you repeat. Finish. Don't make addition, alteration. Then you become guru. Very simple thing. If I say that "My father said, 'This is a bell,' " I am correct because I have learned it from my father, authority. I may be fool, rascal. It doesn't matter. But because I have learned it from the authority and presenting it that "This is a bell," this is perfect.
Prabhupāda: So you voluntarily accept this cycle of birth; you don't accept Kṛṣṇa. Then who can help you? If you have decided to cut your own throat, how can I help you? You'll do it. Whenever you'll get opportunity, you'll cut your throat. How much I can give you protection? That is going on. They have no faith in the words of Kṛṣṇa. They'll manufacture ideas. It is not "seldom." It is my dog's obstinacy that is checking. We cannot give up. Kṛṣṇa has..., sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). That you cannot do. You want to keep in the same position, and at the same time, you want to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. In this Hrishikesh, tīrtha-kṣetra, everyone comes to get some spiritual enlightenment, but who is talking of Kṛṣṇa? Am I right? And there is Gītā-bhavan, Gītā this, Gītā that. What is that "Gītā"? Gītā commentation. Nobody's interested. They don't like to hear even about Kṛṣṇa. This is the position. So mat-para is not seldom. (laughs) The followers are seldom. But Kṛṣṇa says, mat-para. "If you want to practice this yoga..." Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogam... This is yoga. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). This is real yoga. So nobody's interested. Then what can be done? My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "If one is selling langlam(?), and he's canvassing, 'Please come here. Take langlam. There is no price for it,' then people will not take. 'Why langlam he's distributing free?' " So that is the position. We are going to door to door: "Take Kṛṣṇa." They think, "It is very cheap thing. What is the use? Let us practice some other yoga." Kṛṣṇa says, yoginām api sarveṣām (BG 6.47). We don't take. So langlam is not seldom, but the person who take langlam is seldom. This is the difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says, "By this practice of yoga..." Aiye.
Prabhupāda: That is yes. A rascal can become intelligent man. That's good. But without becoming intelligent, remaining rascal, they are living. Otherwise there is no hindrance. I may be rascal, but in future, I may be intelligent by education, by... That is not checked. But the difficulty is that he remains a rascal and claims to be intelligent. That is the difficulty. That is the difficulty. We don't say that "Because you are rascal, you shall continue to remain a rascal." No. You become intelligent. Take advantage of intelligent person. But you remain a rascal and claim to be intelligent, and that is... They are doing. Little learning is dangerous. We say that don't remain rascal. Tamaso mā: "Don't remain in darkness." We say; we are canvassing. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose, that "You are rascal, but don't remain a rascal. Come to the light." Tamaso mā jyotir gama. That is our business. But this rascal, he'll remain in rascaldom, and he will claim that "I am not." That is the difficulty. Take enlightenment. Bhāgavata is there. Bhagavad-gītā is there. And become intelligent. But don't claim to be intelligent while you are on the rascal platform. That is not good. That is suicidal. So very carefully read Bhāgavatam. Don't continue to remain rascal. Then life is successful. This is the Western obstinacy. They want to remain in the rascal platform, and still they claim. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: Last time, when I was there, so many young persons, they were giving me, "Thanks, Prabhupāda." They were feeling some enlightenment. Do you remember?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Out of their own accord, they were giving, "Thanks, Prabhupāda. Thanks, Prabhupāda." They were not my disciples.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, with great feeling they were serving.
Prabhupāda: Others. But they felt an ecstasy. So continue this ideal, and they will be very innocent and transcendental. It has nothing to do with material contact. Material contamination cannot touch it. Your country, very vast and big. Some of them have become... So farm there.(?) Hare Kṛṣṇa. But during Ratha-yātrā, everyone will be shown. Such a nice festival. Everyone will be forced to give. That is beginning. (break) Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good. She's interested in every single aspect of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Special feature of our temple, you'll see, younger generation, boys and girls from respectable families, they are coming. Did you mark this?
Prabhupāda: You do it, without God. Then I take it seriously. Otherwise empty voice simply, nonsensical.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Elders should be careful to give sound knowledge based on objective evidence to their children. Unfortunately a lot of delusional ideas are put into the minds of children in the name of religion. Dāsa and Swami talk about rebirth, soul, Supreme Soul, life generating matter, etc.... As a result of such delusional ideas put into them by deluded Indian God-man, Prabhupāda, who founded the bizarre cult know as Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Oh, he's a real demon, this man. Kṛṣṇa has a place already put aside for him. His science won't help him at that time. "Knowledge and enlightenment cannot be had through meditation, which is only a form of self-hypnosis. Dāsa and Swami ask whether scientists can make a chicken to come out of a plastic egg. I do not know whether they are aware that scientists have made over ten elements, such as fermium, (indistinct), serium..." That's all right. We're asking about a chicken. We're not asking about the elements.
Prabhupāda: Rascal, you are simply producing empty sound. Where is the chicken? Rascal. The chicken, the hen, is greater scientist than you. (S)he'll produced another egg within a week. You simply "This, that, this, that, this, that," that's all. "Left, right, that way." What is your value? We don't give you value. Less important than the chicken.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) He says, "We have created over ten elements that even God..."
Prabhupāda: Who cares for your creation? Without your creation the egg is there.
| Page Title: | Enlightenment (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur, RupaManjari, Visnu Murti |
| Created: | 22 of Sep, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=70, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 70 |