Education (Conversations 1975)

Expressions researched:
"coeducation" |"education" |"educational" |"educationally" |"educations" |"educative"

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: ...master of all mystic yoga. Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. What is that verse? Yatra yogeśvara, Bhagavad-gītā. Who will find out? Yes, in the last portion of the Eighteenth Chapter. Yatra dhanur-dharaḥ pārtho yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. I think it begins with yatra.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh, I know where it is. Yatra yogeśvaro hariḥ. Here. This is yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (BG 18.78). Read that? Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ, tat... (door opens)

Hanumān: This is Mr. Coruna Cortez. He's the administrator of the Institute of Science and Education. He said he is a philosopher.

Prabhupāda: Karuna?

Mr. Cortez: Cortez. Arjeo Coruna Cortez.

Prabhupāda: From India? Karuna?

Hṛdayānanda: Mexican.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Karuna is also an Indian name, Karuna.

Hanumān: And the lady here is a psychologist.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments—the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg—so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. Leg division means ordinary worker. And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is creating some brain. If they follow, the whole society will be happy. A man may be very stout and strong, but if he has no good brain, it is useless. Similarly, at the present moment there is education, there is money and everything, but because there is no brain, the whole thing is in chaotic condition. The first defect is, in education, that the present leader, he does not know what is the aim of life. Neither the people know that there is reincarnation or transmigration of the soul after death. They do not know. So basically they are brainless. So they cannot give guidance, and therefore the whole society is in chaotic condition.

Morning Walk -- February 21, 1975, Caracas:

Prabhupāda: University education is simply to learn some art, materialistic art. It is not education. Education is different. Education is brahma-vidyā, self-realization. Therefore in politics the so-called leader, because there is no standard, they change government, revolution. Why? From nature's study we can see one tree is producing a particular type of fruit and flower. There is no revolution. It is standard. But these people, because they have no standard, they change every moment, every year. Nature's way—the sun is rising from the eastern side—that is standard. (chuckles) These rascals, they will say, "Let the sun rise from the north." It is childish, simply childish. "Eastern philosophers, Western..." What is this philosophy? Philosophy is philosophy. Why they talk of Eastern, Western?" Eastern sun, Western sun." Sun is always Eastern, never Western. How one can say, "Western sun?" (break) Just see. It is in the water, but the water is not over it. If the water increases, it also increases. See? There is no water on the leaf. Here you see.

Room Conversation with Psychiatrist -- February 22, 1975, Caracas:

Prabhupāda: The real problem is that the human being, I am speaking only of human being, not of the animals, because the animals, they do not know what is the problem; neither they can solve it. It is not possible. In the human form of body there is possibility of making a solution of this problem. Therefore in the human society, along with other educational department, there should be an educational department to understand what is soul, what it is (is its) nature, how it is working, what is the future, wherefrom it is coming. So many things there are. But there is no education for this prime factor, the driver. There is no education.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: Śūdra is meant for giving service to the others. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). So in this age, 99% people are engaged as śūdra, working for others. No independence. Otherwise brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they are independent. They are nobody's servant. But at the present moment, education means how to become expert servant. That means śūdra. So we cannot expect any good things from śūdra. That is not possible. Formerly there was monarchy, and the kings were called rājarṣis, saintly king. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). These instruction are meant for the rājarṣis, not for the śūdras. So the rājarṣis, they would take instruction from superior authority, brāhmaṇas and Vaiṣṇavas, and they will accordingly rule over. And the vaiśyas would produce food grains sufficiently and milk sufficiently. People would eat very nicely, and they keep their health fit and save time for understanding his relationship with God. That is perfect civilization.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Guest (2): So the tamasi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no value. I have seen one doctor of chemistry—he could not get any service—in Allahabad. His name was Raghunātha Mitri(?), Dr. Raghunātha Mitri. So he was living at the cost of his father-in-law and making some soap and going to the shop for selling, doctor. That means he could not get any service. Now his independence was to manufacture some soap as ordinary man is doing. But he was chemist; he could not do anything. He could manufacture some soap. So in spite of high education, because he could not get a good job, he had no value. Just like the dogs. The dogs, if they do not get a master, nice, then street dog. He is lean and thin and no shelter, no...

Guest (1): That is what is happening...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Guest (7): The young children also? What about young children?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Young children should be educated from the very beginning about God consciousness or the science of God. We had the opportunity in our childhood. My father taught. And then, when I was grown up, my spiritual master taught. So for that reason we have got some sense. Spiritual education should be given...

kaumāra ācaret prājño

dharmān bhāgavatān iha

durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma

tad apy adhruvam arthadam

(SB 7.6.1)

This is statement of Prahlāda Mahārāja. He was a five-years-old boy and a devotee. So he was trying to preach amongst his classfellows. The classfellows said, "Why you are bothering about spiritual consciousness, God consciousness, now? We are young men. Let us play." He said, "No. The spiritual life should begin kaumāra, just at the beginning of five years." Why? Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma: "This human form of life is very rarely obtained, and we do not know when we shall die. So before our next death we must be spiritually equipped. That is the business of human life." There is no guarantee when death will come. A child may also die tomorrow. There is no guarantee. Therefore spiritual education should begin as soon as a child can understand something. Because there is no guarantee that he will remain for many years. There is no guarantee.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: So this is also temporary, as the cats' and dogs' body, they are also temporary. But although it is temporary, it is arthadam. You can achieve the real purpose of life. That is the privilege of this human form of... Therefore as soon as possible, the spiritual education should begin, immediately. If the child simply can understand, "God is great," that is immense profit for him. (break) ...means from five years to twenty-five years, brahmacārī, he has nothing to learn except God, brahmacārī. Brāhme carati iti brahmacārī. He is simply interested in Brahmān. That is called brahmacārī. He has no material interest. That is the foundation of spiritual life. Brahmacārī. And if he can, he remains brahmacārī throughout the whole life. But if he is unable, then he is allowed to marry, gṛhastha. So according to Vedic civilization, any education should begin at childhood. Therefore even one is king's son, he was sent to Gurukula to remain as brahmacārī to learn the basic principle of life. That is Vedic civilization.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: Try to understand this, that life is always there, as God is there. So these living entities, part and parcel of God, they are also there. That God has got multi-energies, potencies. Out of that, three potencies have been taken as very important. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). God has multi-energy. Out of that, three energies have been taken as principal: material, spiritual, and marginal. The material energy is this material world. The spiritual world is the spiritual energy. And we living entities, we are also spiritual, but we are called marginal because we may live under the subjugation of material energy or spiritual energy. So the living entities, they are eternal. Their only position is marginal, sometimes manifested here, sometimes manifested there. So in the material world the living entities are already there. You haven't got to create. That is foolishness. It is never created. Simply in the material world it becomes manifest in four ways. Some of them are coming like trees, plants. And some of them are coming from perspiration... not coming, being manifested through fermentation, perception. And some of them are being manifested through eggs. And some of them are being manifested through embryo. The living entity were already there. Their struggle is going on, and they become manifest in the material world in four sources. In the spiritual world there is no such... They are eternally existing. There is no question of manifestation. So this is the science of living entities. What do they know? Therefore I say they are rascals. They do not know anything, simply trying to create. What is the creation? It is already there. But they do not know what is this, and still, they are scientists, they are advanced education. All rascal.

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: This I want. You are nicely educated. Now by dint of your education, you prove that background is Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Then your education will be perfect. Otherwise you are one of these fools and rascals, that's all. The particular type of education, mathematics, chemistry, physics, what you have learned after working so hard, now you should by your educational-departmental education—you prove that the background is Kṛṣṇa. Then your education is perfect. That is the verse, idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā.

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Guest (1): But Swamiji, while the family norm here in the western countries is 2.3 children per couple, we still have a family norm of about six children per family. You know I think there are a lot of cultural factors that are...

Prabhupāda: No, that shastric injunction is, that is spiritual restraint. Therefore one should train himself when to have sex life or when to become father, when not to become. That education... Not to become like animal, dogs and cats, whenever there is sex desire, we must have. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Find out this, dharmāviruddhaḥ.

Guest (1): Swamiji, do you recognize that India does need some method at this point...

Prabhupāda: Why you are speaking of India. Everyone needs, all over the world.

Room Conversation -- March 2, 1975, Atlanta:

Guest (1): That we believe in.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are not perfect. We can speculate only and that is not perfection. "Maybe," "perhaps," like that. No definite knowledge. The definite knowledge you can get from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect. Therefore all the ācāryas accept Kṛṣṇa. We have to follow the ācāryas, ācāryopāsanam. So in India all these ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, they accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme absolute. Why you should not? Are you more than these ācāryas? Then? That is the defect of modern education, they manufacture education although they're imperfect. They have no the common sense that "I am imperfect, how I am manufacturing education and becoming teacher. My becoming teacher is cheating because I have no perfect knowledge." Knowledge means it must be perfect, not "maybe," "perhaps." This is not knowledge. Definite knowledge.

Morning Walk -- March 4, 1975, Dallas:

Prabhupāda: So this human life is not meant for imitating the stool-eater hogs. This is in the Bhāgavata. But they have imitated this, "We shall work. Work like hard work, hoglike, and there is no discrimination of food. All sorts of nonsense we shall eat, and in this way we shall get strong and have sex life. Never mind whether he is mother, sister, or daughter. It doesn't matter." This is the modern civilization. And that is warned in the Bhāgavata, "No, this is not life." But this has become actually the life, modern civilized life. Therefore it is called avidya, not education, contra-education. (break) ...says, make life very comfortable. Just produce little food grains, and there are fruits. Even if you don't produce food grain, you can live on fruits and milk. No. The milk source? Cut down their throat, cows, and eat the meat. There is no need of food grain or fruit. This is civilization. And thus becoming duṣkṛtina, all the brain is being utilized for sinful life. Duṣkṛtina means intelligence applied for sinful life. Kṛti, kṛti means meritorious. But their merit has been applied for acting sinfully. Therefore they are called duṣkṛtina. (break) "...by the orders of Christ we shall commit all kinds of sin, and Christ has taken contract. He will take our sin." That's all. Is it not?

Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London:

Reporter: Do they do anything like social work or other...

Prabhupāda: Yes, social work, this is the best social work. People are in ignorance, and we are giving them knowledge. Is it not the best social work? If you keep the man in ignorance and if you give him something... Just like your child. You simply give him to eat but no education. Then what is the benefit? Is that very good nice work, that you give your children nice food to become robust but no education? Is that very good nice work? People are, in this human form of life, especially meant for understanding God. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the Vedānta-sūtra. So they are keeping them in darkness and teaching them technology, how to make cycle. That's all. The life is meant for understanding God, and they have been educated for making cycle and sewing machine. This is going on. Therefore there will be disaster. It is already there. Just like in America or any Western country, they have manufactured so many cars, and now they are flattering the Arabians, "Please give us oil." You see? Power crisis. And if they stop manufacturing, there is unemployment. And if they increase car, there is power shortage. So this dilemma, this modern civilization will have to meet this dilemma because they are going against the laws of God.

Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London:

Reporter: The quality of my life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if you infect a certain type of disease, you must suffer from that disease. Similarly, there are three qualities of the material nature. So as you associate with that quality, you get a similar body. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). How one is getting better life, one is getting worse life, the reason is associating, infecting the different types of modes of nature. That education we have no... There is no such education, what kind of association we should make so that we can better life or we can go back to home, back to God. There is no such education. They are living like cats and dogs and going to be cats and dogs.

Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London:

Reporter: Will they be virtually living outside...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Outside also you can live. Simply you must know how to live. At the present moment you do not know how to live. That's all. And there is no education how to live. All of us being sent to the slaughterhouse, that's all. They do not know how to live. In the Vedic civilization you will find the first proposition is how to live. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). How to live... First the human society is divided into four: the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya, or the śūdra. The first-class intelligent man, they are educated as brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Just like we are training engineer, similarly, a class of men, those who are very intelligent, they should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. They should be trained up how to speak truth any circumstance. Even to the enemy he will speak truth. This requires training, not that foolishly, a cats' and dogs' life. What is the value of this life? The modern civilization, they do not know how to live. They are simply interested in eating, and that's also any nonsense eating. But according to Vedic civilization, "This eating is first class. This eating is second class. This eating is third class. This eating is fourth class." So many things required to correct the mistaken way of civilization. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- March 13, 1975, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: So why don't you know yourself? Why you are in darkness? Kṛṣṇa says everything in the Bhagavad-gītā. In the beginning He says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam (BG 2.13). In this body there is the occupier of the body. So if you think yourself that you are this body, that is your wrong. You try to understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi." That's the fact. So this human life is meant for that purpose. So why should you not do it? Why should you keep yourself in darkness? That is very risky. If I keep myself in the darkness like cats and dogs, that "I am this body," then my life is very risky. By nature's way we are given this opportunity, human form of life. If we do not understand our position, if we remain in the same category, bodily concept of life, then we are missing the chance. After all, you have to change this body. It is not permanent settlement that you shall remain Indian, you shall remain American. No. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You have to change. Now what kind of body you are going to get, that you have to understand. That is responsibility. So this child, this boy, if he remains in darkness that he will continue this childhood body, and father, mother will take care of him—"I don't require to take any education"—then future life, when he will be young man, he will be not nicely posted for want of education. Then how miserable it will be. Similarly, if we don't take care of this education that "I am not this body, my future body will be different, and if I do not know what kind of different body I'll have to accept..." Suppose we accept some lower grade of body. Then what is my future? So if we don't understand this philosophy as Kṛṣṇa teaches, asmin dehe dehinaḥ, "Within this body there is the occupier, soul," so if you do not understand, that is very risky life.

Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: 1918? In that year I was married. I was student at that time. I was student, 1900 up to '20. Then I joined Gandhi's noncooperation movement and gave up my education. His points were to give up English education, English court, English-manufactured goods, in this way.

Ambassador: How did you feel about Gandhiji spiritually?

Prabhupāda: He was a good gentleman, that's all. He had no spiritual asset.

Ambassador: That's what I wondered. I never met him. I don't know. But he said himself, "I may be a saint among politicians, but I'm a politician among saints." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: He said or the governor said? Anyway, it is... Mr. Casey from Australia—he was governor of Bengal—he said, I think, that thing. His study was like that. He was a politician, that's all.

Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran:

Prabhupāda: So it is very... God's law, nature's law, they take account of the particular color and awards the body accordingly. It is not man-made law, that there may be some mistake. There is no mistake. If you have contaminated this disease, either smallpox or cholera or this or that, you must develop that disease. Therefore we should be desireless. Desireless means material desire. That material desire begins with the designation. That... The child, he has got a childish body, and he plays like a child. The same child, when he will get a youthful body, he will do like that. The soul is the same. But on account of different type of body he is acting differently. That is practical. A small child, in the childhood he will talk like nonsense. People will enjoy it. But the same child, when he is grown up and he talks like nonsense, people will call him nonsense, rascal. Why? The body has changed. The circumstance has changed. This is the real education, that we are changing body, and according to our bodily situation we are acting differently. That they do not understand. There is no school, college or education about the soul and the soul's changing different position of different body, and in this way he remains materially entangled.

Room Conversation with Canadian Ambassador to Iran -- March 13, 1975, Iran:

Ambassador: So bhakti is really a process of decontaminating the mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Right you are. You are intelligent and... Yes. That is the real education. And all this rascal education will not help because all this education will keep him within this material body. And his real relief is how to get out of this material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is required, in Bhagavad-gītā. After giving up this body no more acceptance of this material body. That is real education. And Bhāgavata says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. There is no need of becoming father unless you train up your child to accept no more this material body. The child should be trained up by the father. The guru should train up the disciple in such a way that the disciple or the child or the student will not have to accept any more this material body. That is education. And the whole Vedic education is meant for this purpose. (break) ...in his original spiritual life, that is mukti. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means that—to educate people how to achieve his original consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Room Conversation with Yoga Student -- March 14, 1975, Iran:

Young man: But can one be egoistic and be spiritual at the same time, I mean, be proud of himself, not as a body, but proud of his state of the spirit?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we are bodily busy. Because I am identifying with this body, therefore my misunderstanding is there. But if I understand I am not this body, then my activities will be different. So first of all, you have to understand that I am not this body. That is the beginning of spiritual education. (break) ...with this body, we remain an animal, because animal cannot understand that he is not body. Try to understand that you are not this body. And what is the difficulty? When a...?

Young man: The difficulty is that I fear that if this body leaves me I'll no longer be. That's the difficulty, because it's difficult for me to imagine that when my brain doesn't work, I can't live, if I can live when my brain stops functioning. That's the difficulty.

Prabhupāda: Difficulty is not there, but we have to understand from teacher. Just like the many subject of knowledge we do not understand in the beginning, but by hearing from the teacher, gradually we understand. So that teacher must be perfect, in full knowledge, and then we can understand from him. So we accept Kṛṣṇa. Because He is God, He is perfect. So we receive knowledge from Him, and that is Bhagavad-gītā. So knowledge from Kṛṣṇa or His pure servant, both of them are equal. They can give us that knowledge.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: Behind the movement, that... This is the idea, that you try to understand the Supreme Being behind all, everything. That is perfection.

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam

(SB 1.5.22)

Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā. Everyone, big, big philosophers, scientists, they are engaged in tapasya and education, but they do not know what is the ultimate goal of this tapasya. The scientist is working very hard, and he has discovered a nuclear bomb to kill.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Where is the actual attempt to give everyone sufficient food? Where is that attempt? And here in the Bhagavad-gītā it is plainly said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) if you want to keep happy the animals and the men, then produce food grain. Who is doing that? They simply passing resolution and raising funds and then eating, themself, at the cost of others. And therefore the price is increasing. One who has got money, he can pay more price, artificial. I am poor man. I have no money. You have got money. You purchase before me. Then I starve. But if there is sufficient supply of food grain, then this thing will not happen. You can distribute without any price. That was being done in India. Educated man means unemployment, is it not? So-called education means creating unemployment. They will go with application, "Give me some clerical post, some this post, that post, that post." This is education.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) If you want to act as lawyer, you must learn. You must have legal education. (to devotees:) So you take your bath and prasādam. Wherefrom you are coming?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From New York.

Prabhupāda: Oh, direct?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How many hours?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actual flight time was twenty-three hours, but with the time change, about thirty-six hours.

Prabhupāda: You were in the, thirty-six hours in the plane?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we were in the plane about twenty-four hours.

Prabhupāda: Three hours extra. We had to come here, twenty-one hours.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: Blind men. Therefore this fact is summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā in the words,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta jñānā

āsuri-bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

Because they have denied the existence of God, therefore they are blind and they are engaged in sinful activities without knowing what is going to happen next in his life. Therefore mūḍha, rascal. And narādhamāḥ. Narādhamāḥ means lowest of the mankind, because in the human form of life one could understand what is God, but he is misusing his intelligence for something else, narādhamāḥ. But if you say, "They are educated. They have got so much education. Why do you condemn them?" then the answer is māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This so-called knowledge they have acquired, that means māyā has made them more foolish. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says,

jaḍa-vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava,

jībake karaye gāḍhā

He has said like that, that so far advancement of material education means that so-called educated man is becoming more, more, more an ass.

Interview with a German Girl and Assorted Devotees -- March 30, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of sincerity; it is the question of ignorance. If, if the father, mother, teacher, government does not know that how the people should be raised, then they remain in ignorance. Just like a... If the child... Child is ignorant, but if he's not given the education...

Girl: (German)

Haṁsadūta: She says now in this movement a new generation is being raised up, the children that we have in our schools and in our movement.

Prabhupāda: There... Therefore we are educating children even.

Girl: For the future

Prabhupāda: Yes, future generation. Because the so-called educational institutions, they have produced only fools and rascals.

Interview with a German Girl and Assorted Devotees -- March 30, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are very intelligent.

Girl: Oh. (Laughs)

Prabhupāda: We can engage anyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It does not depend on particular education, status of life. It doesn't matter. Ahaitukī. The exact Sanskrit word is ahaituky apratihatā. Ahaitukī means without any cause and without being checked. If anyone wants to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no impediment in the whole world which can check him.

Haṁsadūta: (German)

Girl: (German)

Haṁsadūta: Yes. She says if a person wants to give the best of himself, it is probably best to give that which he has learned throughout his life, to do it for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Conversation with Devotees -- March 31, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Vallabhācārya was rejected by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I know that. So actually...

Prabhupāda: He was simply proud of his education. He had no realization.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You explained that...

Acyutānanda: Do they worship in vātsalya-rasa or just show?

Prabhupāda: Show, formality.

Acyutānanda: It's not genuine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not genuine.

Prabhupāda: Some of them say that "Kṛṣṇa, becoming, before becoming polluted." They say like that.

Morning Walk -- April 5, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: No, it is for future, not for present. The child does not want to go to school, but the father forces him to go for future.

Jayādvaita: That's tangible, though.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayādvaita: That's tangible. You can see. If somebody gets a university education, he gets a job, this, that, but in Kṛṣṇa consciousness you can't see how he's going back to Godhead.

Prabhupāda: And besides that, why you are keeping money in the bank, do good bank balance?

Madhudviṣa: Because it's giving interest.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means for future.

Madhudviṣa: No, I can enjoy the interest in the present.

Prabhupāda: No, you don't enjoy... That the future you may not be in difficulty; therefore... Why insurance? Why the insurance company?

Trivikrama: Also, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness you can see the result immediately. You become more happy.

Prabhupāda: No, they say there is no future. Then why you are paying insurance fees? There are so many insurance company. Everyone is thinking of future, consciously or unconsciously.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: When our godbrother Acyuta Mahārāja and Bon Mahārāja was sent, Lady Willingdon, he derided them that "You Indian people you come here..." (break)

Rāmeśvara: ...say that Western civilization is very good for the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but they cannot teach their own children. They are becoming hippies. That is the effect of their education.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You have to judge by the fruits.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot teach your own people, and you are going to teach others. "Physician heal thyself." Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Greets someone.) You have failed to teach your own children, they are disappointed, and you are going to teach others. This is another cheating. It is not the question of... That is another fault—"our," "your." There is no question of "our," "your." Any culture, actually if it is culture, it is meant for the whole human society. Why do you say, "our," "your." We never say, "The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant for Indians," or "for the Europeans." It is meant for everyone. That is our proposition.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never says that, that "You send your children to the universities and make them fools and rascals." So one who is depending on job, he's a śūdra. That is not education. Education is not meant for the śūdra but for the dvijas, twice-born, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, and vaiśya. Śūdras are never for education. So their education, so-called education, means creating so many śūdras. Unless he gets a job his education is useless. Therefore he's a śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—they will create their own means of livelihood. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Therefore they are unhappy. They don't get job, neither they are able to work independently.

Conversation with Indian Guests -- April 12, 1975, Hyderabad:

Mahāṁsa: Cinmayananda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa means "black." Sapta nuraman pure sita kar baba. (?) One has studied all the Rāmāyaṇa, seven cantos, seven khandas, and he is asking, "Whose father is Sītā?" Sītā is a feminine, and the Rāmāyaṇa expert is asking, "Whose father is Sītā?" This is their education, they are becoming big lecturer on Bhagavad-gītā, he has understood Kṛṣṇa means "black." And people are following him blindly. Big swamiji is speaking.

Guest: Can we (indistinct).

Mahāṁsa: Kṛṣṇa means, actually in Sanskrit, one of the meanings of the word Kṛṣṇa...

Guest: That is...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is all-attractive, that he will not explain. In the Brahma-saṁhitā, it is said, asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ (Bs. 5.30). Asitām, sundaram. He is blackish, but He is so attractive, more attractive than many millions of Cupid.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Governor: No, all people... One or two could be taken out of many.

Prabhupāda: No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The guṇas are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person. That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of brāhmaṇa, proper training of kṣatriya, vaiśya, must be given. These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that?

Brahmānanda: "As there are different sections of educational institutions, there must be one institution how to train up perfect brāhmaṇas with ideal characters as above mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. If there is a section of people of ideal character, say 5 percent, the other 95 percent, by seeing their example, will follow. In other words, a section of the society must be of ideal character. That is essential."

Prabhupāda: So therefore this varṇāśrama college is very essential.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Ninety-five percent may remain non-brāhmaṇa. But this 5 percent, if they are strongly brahminical, then others will follow. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ-sahasraśaḥ. You have got millions of stars. Nobody cares for them. But people are looking after "When the moon will rise? When the moon will rise?" That one moon is sufficient than millions of stars. So this is the suggestion. Then?

Brahmānanda: "The propagation of mānava-dharma. Regarding propagation of mānava-dharma, mānava-dharma means the activities of the human beings. So the distinction between mānava-dharma and paśu-dharma is that in the animal society there is no idea of God consciousness. God consciousness can only be propagated in human society. In the animal society they may be physically stronger than the humans like the tiger and the elephant or many such animals, but they cannot be educated spiritually."

Prabhupāda: They may be very strong, our tiger and elephant, but they have no capacity to accept any education.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: This kind of understanding at the present time, at the present time... (Hindi) So we give reference, that "Present time, everyone is fallen." But truth is always the same, not at present time. So the real truth is that ideal man of character there must be. Because at the present moment there is no character, there is no moral education, therefore we have to adapt according to them, no. The pukka moralist, he must be moralist. It doesn't matter that "People at the present time, they do all immoral activities; therefore we have to adjust." No. Strictly one should be moralist. There is no question of present time or past time. That should be real point of view.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Ah, Vālmīki. There were many. There were, are many. Nārada. Nārada was a son of a maidservant, śūdra. He had no father. So dāsī-putra. And he became Nārada. So where is the restriction? Similarly, in the Jabalopaniṣad, Satyakāma Jabala, he was also a prostitute's son. And he approached Gautama Muni, "You kindly make me your disciple." Gautama Muni said, "What you are?" "I am my mother's son, that's all." "Then who is your father?" "That I do not know." "Ask your mother." So mother replied, "My dear son, I do not know who is your father." And he came and said to Gautama Muni, "Sir, my mother also does not know who is my father." Then Gautama Muni said, "Yes, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on. I shall..." Because speaking truth. So unless you are a son of a brāhmaṇa, you cannot speak such secret truth. Nobody will say that "I do not know who is my father." It is social scandal even up to date. But he plainly said that "My mother does not know who is my father." So immediately Gautama Muni accepted him as brāhmaṇa: "You are telling the truth." Satya śamaḥ damaḥ. Because it is first qualification. So such a high cultural life. Now we should take standard śāstra and follow and establish educational institution to train them. Otherwise, simply by crying in the wilderness, what will be the result? Now some result is there because I am practically training them. And before me, all the swamis went there. They lectured, that's all.

Room Conversation with Carol Cameron -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Carol: Do you think it is possible to live in say an education framework, or should it be something quite separate?

Prabhupāda: Education, if it is not for the benefit of the people, then what is the use of such education? That is not a good education. Education means something which will benefit the mass of people. That is education. To enlighten them to do something better. That is education. And this whole Darwin's theory is false. But people are giving too much stress. First of all, anyone, even Darwin, he's not independent. Just like Darwin has died. So, he is under the control of something higher. Nobody wants to die, but he is forced to die. Is it not? Then where is his independence?

Carol: That is the illusion.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Amogha: She says that is the illusion of independence.

Room Conversation with Carol Cameron -- May 9, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda:? Yes, so if you simply in illusion you live, then where is your education? If you remain in darkness, then where is your education? Illusion means darkness. So if you are in darkness, now what is your education? And where is your philosophy?

Carol: The only way to remove this darkness is through love. Is this what you are saying?

Prabhupāda: Love is far away. First of all you be educated.

Carol: How? In what way?

Prabhupāda: Education means right knowledge. Right knowledge. Just like, everyone wants to live. Nobody wants to die. So, the enquiry should be that "I do not wish to die. Why death is forced upon me?" What is that force? What is the nature of that force? If I submit, "Yes, the force is there," then where is my knowledge? I do not wish to die. So why death is forced upon me? Nobody wants miserable condition of life, but miserable condition of life is enforced upon me. So this should be first of all enquired, that I do not want these things, and who is enforcing upon me these things? This is the first enquiry, philosophical.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: They don't have enough food.

Paramahaṁsa: No technology, no education.

Prabhupāda: Because you have plundered them for the last two thousand years. You rascals, rogues, you have plundered. You have taken all their money, all their jewels, all their gold, and made British Museum. (laughter) It is due to you. (noise in background) What is the dog? Some dog?

Amogha: Oh, that is the siren. You mean the siren?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Some bird.

Amogha: Oh, yeah. In Bhagavad-gītā we claim that it is a fact scientifically that Kṛṣṇa appeared on earth and so many things. But actually isn't it because we believe that the Bhagavad-gītā is true that we think it is scientific? Because we believe it. But someone else would say, "I don't believe it, so for me it's not scientific."

Prabhupāda: Why it is not scientific? If Bhagavad-gītā says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), by eating sufficient grains, the living entity become flourished. So, can you deny it?

Amogha: That must be true.

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Devotee (1): For instance, a man who is in the mode of passion like a kṣatriya, he only finds satisfaction when he's engaged in warfare or administrative work. Similarly so with a vaiśya or a śūdra...

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think it is... Maybe it is described in Seventeenth Chapter. According to our free will, we are associating with certain type of the modes of material nature, and then we become subjected to that material modes. The same example: you infect some disease, contamination, and you gain the result of it. So our endeavor should be how to raise ourself to the first, to the sattva-guṇa. That we can do. And then transcend sattva-guṇa and reach the spiritual platform. Everyone is trying to improve his position, but they do not know what is meant by improvement. Improvement means mostly they are in tamo-guṇa, ignorance. So rise from tamo-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to sattva-guṇa, and then sattva-guṇa to transcendence. That is improvement. So generally, people are suffering on account of association with tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, whole material world, mostly tamo-guṇa and few of them in rajo-guṇa. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa are lust and greediness. Just like yesterday you told me the students are talking about homosex. That means tamo-guṇa, that the education-students, they are discussing about homosex.

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Oh, seagull. They are doing the same business, and after his much advancement of civilization, he is doing the same business. The tiger is also eating flesh and blood, and human being—a scientific slaughterhouse. The same business, but they have got scientific instrument how to cut the throat quickly. This is the advance, advancement of civilization. The dog and cat they are having sex on the open street, and now they are talking of homosex in the school, colleges for education. This is their position. They do not know even what is the standard of human civilization. If you are doing the same business like ordinary animals, then where is the advancement of civilization? Where they have gone by crossing here?

Devotee (2): I think they went up that path out there, Prabhupāda.

Morning Walk -- May 13, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: And by simply one daṇḍa, one is sannyāsī. This is all over the world. Mussulman, having a long beard, he is Mussulman. Mussuleḥ iman.(?) Musseleḥ means complete, and iman means honest. That is the meaning of Mussulman. Completely honest, completely devoted. Mussuleḥ iman. (long pause) We are not saying just "No sex." We don't say that. We simply say, "No illicit sex," and they do not like it. We don't say "No sex," but simply by saying, "No illicit sex," they don't like. Why? There is a Bengali song, "cakṣe yadi lage bhala kena dadimali" (?) "If I want to see something beautiful, why shall I not see?" That is pravṛtti. "I want to do it. I like to do it. Why should you say, 'No'?" This is the position. "I like to do it. I must do it." This is called pravṛtti (long pause) "I like to interpret Bhagavad-gītā in this way. Why should you say no?" This is going on. (break) The school students, college students, "I like to copy. Why shall I repress(?) ?" This is education. Here also they copy?

Morning Walk -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: They are discussing in the university homosex. They are advanced. Advancement of education. Just see. They are not even fourth-class men; they are animals, producing so many animals, that's all, dogs and hogs. (break) ...in the beginning śamaḥ. Śamaḥ, damaḥ-first two business. Control the sense and keep the mind undisturbed. That is the beginning. Now they are so much sexually disturbed, they're discussing about the profit of homosex. Where is first-class men?

Amogha: They say that homosex keeps the balance of things because...

Prabhupāda: Yes, fourth-class man can say anything wrong, bad, but we are not going to hear of it. A fourth-class man's philosophy, we will have to waste our time to hear them—that's not good. They are not even fourth class; they are animal class. Fourth class has got some position, but they are narādhama, the lowest of the mankind. So what is their philosophy, and who is going to spoil his time to hear about their philosophy?

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: The people should be educated that "If you do not perform this yajña, you will suffer."

Justin Murphy: But, of course, there are conflicting educations, aren't there?

Prabhupāda: Whatever they may be. What is the wrong there, that, if we sit down together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any loss of our factory or work? But if there is some gain, why not try it?

Justin Murphy: A delightful idea, a beautiful idea, and a very simple-sounding idea. How about, however, the Anglicans, the Roman Catholics, who are bound in this...

Prabhupāda: No, what is the... No, Roman Catholics... We don't say that Roman Catholics cannot perform yajña. We say that you chant the holy name of God. So Roman Catholics they have God or not, no God?

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: The simple truth. But people have no education. That is the defect of the modern civilization. This is the fact, that you are accepting every moment a different body. So after death, you will have to accept another body. Now, we should know, "What kind of body I am going to accept next?" That is intelligence. That is civilization.

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: The knowledge should be acquired from the beginning of life, from childhood. But if by circumstances I could not get this knowledge from childhood, then we should begin immediately. Because unless we get this knowledge, our life remains imperfect. We remain animal. The animal does not know this. And after evolutionary process, coming to the human form of body, if we keep ourself in the darkness of animal life, then our this opportunity is lost. This is the first problem. Unfortunately, the modern education is... Leaders, they have no education, and they are thinking just like animal that "I am this body." Therefore you are thinking you are Australian, I am thinking I am Indian, he is thinking American, he..., only on this bodily concept of life. But we are not this body. We are different from this body. So unless we understand this point, our aim of life, our standard of civilization, is incorrect.

Room Conversation with Justin Murphy (Geographer) -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: By education you create.

Justin Murphy: Fine. But how... O.K. How about, then the, some of the ancient and maybe even now the latter-day philosophers...

Prabhupāda: No, just see...

Justin Murphy: ...the men of sobriety and gentleness, the Bertrand Russells for example.

Prabhupāda: They have to be trained. Just like you have been trained up as geographer; similarly, a certain man can be trained up as first-class man by education.

Justin Murphy: But trained by others or trained by themselves?

Prabhupāda: No, there must be institution.

Room Conversation with Ganesa dasa's Mother and Sister -- May 14, 1975, Perth:

Sister: What about like euthanasia, say. Isn't that nonacceptance of a material body? If by some, for some reason the child isn't allowed to be born?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is said here, that if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then after giving up this body—this is material body, you have to give up—so you are not coming again in the womb of another material mother. You are transferred to the spiritual world by nature's law. They do not know the subtle laws which is going on underneath. They are simply concerned superficially. Because they have no knowledge of the spirit soul—they think the body is everything—so therefore knowledge is imperfect. Body is only the covering. Real person is the spirit soul. So the modern education has no knowledge of this.

Discussion -- May 15, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: We can train any class to become first class. It is simply by education. Just like anyone can become engineer by training. Where is the difficulty? Nobody is born first class, but we can make first class if he agrees to become first class. Two things required: he must agree, and the teachings are there. Then he becomes first class. Where is the difficulty?

Devotee (1): But you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the four classes are necessary.

Prabhupāda: They already there, four classes of men, but they should be properly trained up. Then the society will be in order. Just like this man, he is considered to be first-class man in the society. He is in charge of some department. But actually, he is fourth class. So as he is little trained up by a moment's instruction, if he agrees to be trained up, he can become. He's young man, within thirty years.

Room Conversation with Jesuit -- May 19, 1975, Melbourne:

Jesuit: The third form is where I do not think it, it's just, I'm sort of rapt, absorbed in the divine...

Prabhupāda: Yes. But that attention, ecstasy, comes in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Otherwise these young boys are chanting and dancing... Unless there is ecstasy... They are not monkeys. They are human beings. They are dancing, with education, with culture. Unless there is spiritual ecstasy, how they can chant and dance for hours together? It is not monkey dancing. It is spiritual. It is spiritual.

Morning Walk -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Devotee (1): Sādhana means accepting discipline.

Prabhupāda: Eh, yes. Do you think that solving the problem of birth, death and old age and disease is very easy task? (chuckles) You have to very, very strongly... Those who do not care, that is another thing. They are under these laws, going on. Life after life, they are changing body, again birth, again death, again in the womb of mother. They do not take it seriously, how risky life is that. They do not take it. "Oh, what is that?" Now, in Kali-yuga, the mother is killing the child. Even within the womb of mother is not safe. This is going on. So they do not take that how this way of life is risky and uncomfortable. They do not take it seriously. To enter again into the womb of mother, how difficult job and troublesome it is, they do not understand it. For want of education.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That social work has nothing to do with spiritual work.

Dr. Copeland: Does this organization do social work?

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the best social work. We are giving the best education, best knowledge, best hope of next life. And what they are giving? They do not know what is next life even.

Dr. Copeland: When you do the translations...

Prabhupāda: I have all translated during these ten years. I translated, began translating from 1968, or '9, I was publishing that Back to Godhead paper even from my gṛhastha life, from 1944.

Dr. Copeland: And when you do do the translation...

Prabhupāda: Then I began translating from 1968 or '69. And I published my first book in 1962. Then next was in 1964. And then the third volume was published in 1965. And then I came to America. And then I translated all these books, whatever you see, about fifty books. This is about eleven hundred pages. Other books are not less than four hundred pages.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. Vidyā-bhāgavatāvadhiḥ. Then his education is finalized. Vidyāvadhiḥ, vidyā avadhiḥ. The limit of education is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Find out.

Madhudviṣa:

cirāṇi kiṁ pathi na santi diśanti bhikṣāṁ

naivāṅghripāḥ para-bhṛtaḥ sarito 'py aśuṣyan

ruddhā guhāḥ kim ajito 'vati nopasannān

kasmād bhajanti kavayo dhana-durmadāndhān

(SB 2.2.5)

"Translation: Are there no torn clothes lying on the common road? Do the trees, which exist for maintaining others, no longer give alms in charity? Do the rivers, being dried up, no longer supply water to the thirsty? Are the caves of the mountains now closed, or, above all, does the Almighty Lord not protect the fully surrendered souls? Why then do the learned sages go to flatter those who are intoxicated by hard-earned wealth?"

Prabhupāda: That... Saintly person should depend on Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa is not supplying cloth, all right, find out some torn, thrown-out cloth on the street. And food? Go to the tree. Take some fruit.

Room Conversation with Dr. Copeland, Professor of Modern Indian History -- May 20, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: No, that is the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). We have to receive the knowledge through paramparā, disciplic succession. "And because the paramparā is broken, therefore it is lost," Kṛṣṇa says. So we cannot accept Bhagavad-gītā or any Vedic literature, which is called śruti... Śruti means one hears from the ācārya. That is the system.

Amogha: Usually in modern education they have the idea called "well-rounded point of view." They want to take some from here, from there, from that one and that one, that one, and then think about them all, and come up with a conclusion. So he is thinking it doesn't fit with their pattern of reasoning, how we take from one source and get the proper conclusion. They think they have to get from many sources and compare.

Prabhupāda: How... I can reply that if you want to know who is your father, then you will have to take the knowledge from many sources, by votes, that who is your father?

Dr. Copeland: (laughing) It's not the same thing.

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Otherwise the society was divided into four classes—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas were first-class men, ideal. But in the society there is no ideal men. One should have some example, living example, to see "Oh, here is an ideal man." So the ideal man is described here in our Bhagavad-gītā. What is the ideal? Any man can be trained up. Not cent percent, but even one percent man becomes ideal, the ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But there is no ideal man. That is the defect. So just like we are training them as ideal man, by character, by religion, by behavior, by education. That is the purpose of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And you can see practically what was their previous life and what they are now. So government should establish an institution to create ideal men. We can help. We can help.

Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare -- May 21, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: They are taking. Pañca-draviḍa Mahārāja is there. He is a sannyāsī. That is all right. You don't change your mind. You are already trained up about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so you try to become an ideal householder in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because we are not rejecting householder. We are accepting everyone. Gṛhe vā thāke hā gaurāṅga bole ḍāke. Anyone, either he remains as a sannyāsī in the forest or he remains a gṛhastha at home, if he is cultivating this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mercy, then he is all right. That is the verdict. So now you are living as gṛhastha. Live as an ideal gṛhastha, don't change your mind. Be fixed up. They are all gṛhasthas, all these Pañca-tattva, you see? Advaita Prabhu was a gṛhastha. He did not take sannyāsa. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also was married. Nityānanda Prabhu was gṛhastha. They were all gṛhasthas, but ideal gṛhastha. So you become an ideal gṛhastha. That also wanted.

Gṛhastha is also called āśrama, gṛhastha-āśrama. As sannyāsa is called āśrama, similarly gṛhastha is called āśrama. Anywhere cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is going on, that is āśrama. Now it depends on my personal convenience either I remain as gṛhastha or I be a sannyāsī. But when you have accepted the gṛhastha life, so that's all right. Remain at least for fifty years. Then you can give up when your children are grown up. You just give them education, settle them, then you can leave home. That is gṛhastha-āśrama. So, we shall... That's all. (end)

Morning Walk -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Madhudviṣa: Though his material body dies.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But a pure devotee goes back to home. There is no more material body. That is the... So we are advocating that you come to this stage where you will not to have accept this material body. Then you are really happy. And if you want to enjoy the flickering, illusory māyā, then you are subjected to the māyā. You are enjoying as American. Then you enjoy as a dog. That is māyā's control. But if you don't enjoy material things then you become purified. You come to the eternal life, back to home, back to Godhead. But they are not willing to give up this material enjoyment. That is the defect. So it requires education. It requires knowledge. It requires training.

Devotee 7: Prabhupāda, when you leave this material world, will there be another spiritual master after you? Another pure soul?

Prabhupāda: Then that spiritual master is Kṛṣṇa Himself. There is no need of education. Everyone is free. Everyone is full knowledge. There is no need of spiritual master.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Because there are different grades. But at least one class of men should remain in the society as ideal, God conscious. Just like for our usual life we require lawyers, we require engineer, we require medical practitioner, we require so many, similarly, in the society there must be a class of men who are fully God conscious and ideal. That is necessary. Just like in your body you have got hands, legs, belly, but the head must be there. If your head is cut off, then, despite you have got hands, legs, and belly, it is useless. So this attempt, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is an attempt to keep at least one class of men, ideal devotee, ideal character. At least, people will see, "Oh, here is an ideal character." That is required. That is described in the Śrīmad-..., Bhagavad-gītā, how to create a first-class man. Just like we have got educational institution for giving instruction on law or medical science or engineering, similarly, there must be an institution to make first-class devotee, ideal man.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Guest 2: In our society you are taught in school that if you try hard enough, you can become prime minister.

Prabhupāda: No, no, there is no harm. You become prime minister. But I say that not everyone is capable to become prime minister. That has to be. If one man is not capable and if he takes education to become, he will waste his time.

Guest 2: But once you have the idea in your head that you can be prime minister, you don't want to be a laborer.

Prabhupāda: Then you become. But if he is a loafer and he wants to become prime minister, then it will create havoc. Just like in America. He was not fit for the president's post. Nixon was elected. Then again he has to be dragged down. We say the fit man should go to become a particular...

Guest 2: Our system, I think is not very good. But everyone is taught this way in our system.

Prabhupāda: No, there must be... Just like first-class men. They should judge for which purpose this man is. Practical psychology there is. I think. They can decide like that. Anyway, the society must have all divisions of men, and then the society is perfect. We have already many divisions, but we are lacking one division, that, the first-class men, first-class ideal men. That is lacking.

Morning Walk -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne:

Sabhāpati: So who is the greater rascal, the material scientist or the...

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. Everyone who... That is the statement. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). This class of men, they do not recognize God. Who? Those who are sinful, rascals, lowest of the mankind. Such people do not recognize God. Mūḍhas. (indistinct) educated. No, that education means false education. Real education is taken away by māyā. Real education means to understand God. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). If one does not understand what is God, his education is useless. It has no meaning. What is that education? Will that education save him from death? Then what is the value of his education? Your real problem is birth, death, old age, and disease. Can this material education stop it? Is the scientist able to stop one's old age? And does anyone, man, any man, wants to become old? No, nobody wants. Everyone wants to keep himself youthful. But can the science stop this, that he will not become old? He must become old.

Then where is the education value? You cannot solve your problem, so what is the meaning of education? Education, knowledge, means you have solved your problems. They are trying to do that, temporary problem. But ultimate problem they cannot solve. Therefore the value of this education is useless. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). It is simply laboring after something, that's all.

Morning Walk -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne:

Australian devotee 2: They say that the value of their education is that very soon they will be able to overcome birth, death, disease, and old age, that they almost have the solution. They are freezing people's bodies...

Prabhupāda: Therefore younger generation, they are not interested in education. They see that, after all, the life is vacant even after education.

Hari-śauri: The leaders appear to have adopted a stopgap policy so that they can keep the people in ignorance and fool them that they are doing some good when actually they are not, so that they can maintain their position as leader. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking by material adjustment they will be happy. That is not possible. But they are so fools, they do not think over it, that "Where is the solution? You have given me the chance to live in a skyscraper building, but is that solution of the problems?" They have no brain to ask this. Is it...? Does it mean that if you live in a skyscraper building there will be no death, no disease, no old age? Then where is the solution? But real problem is going on. Everyone is trying to save himself from disease, from old age, from death. Why do they go to the physician as soon as there is some disease? "That I may not die." The attempt is to save from the death, but ultimately they are dying. They have no brain to think of it.

Morning Walk -- May 23, 1975, Melbourne:

Australian devotee 2: So it is the fault of the education.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is the responsibility of the government, guardians, father. They do not give them proper education. Therefore Bhāgavata says, "If you cannot give proper education to your children, then don't marry. Don't become father." That is contraceptive. If you are unable to give... What is that? Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. Samupeta-mṛtyum: this body means you have accepted death. This body means, material body. So one should not become a father if he cannot stop the death of his son. That is the Vedic injunction. "Don't become a father, don't become a mother, if you cannot train your children so that he may be saved from this impending death." That is the instruction. And who is doing that? Their philosophy is: "After death everything is finished. I will be finished. My child will be finished. That's all."

Radio Interview -- May 25, 1975, Fiji:

Prabhupāda: Balance is that you should be reciprocal exchange. What you haven't got, you give me; what I haven't got, I give you. This should be the process of exchange. Then the world will be united. When there is exchange of gifts. But our India followed the principle for begging. "Give me men. Give me money. Give me wheat. Give me rice. Give me war materials." Simply begging. So we must give something. This is the first time we are giving something. Otherwise, India was a beggar simply to the western countries. For their technical education they are going to the western countries, and when there is war, they are asking America, "Please give us war materials." And when they give war materials to Pakistan we become envious. But you are also taking rice, ḍāl for this(?). So why should you remain beggar?

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: So that requires education. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kā... samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). When one is Brahman realized, then he can see equally. But that requires education, how to become brahma-bhūtaḥ. But everyone is śarīra-bhūtaḥ. Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So how it can be possible? So we may attempt, but it is not possible.

Yogi Bhajan: There are a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions given against each other.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Misconception... Just like you have got a body; I have got a body. If I say, "No, I don't like you "... If I say, "I don't like you"... Naturally, when we see superficially, then this tendency will go on. When you see inside, introspectively, then there will be equality. That requires education. So...

Yogi Bhajan: All right, come and educate.

Prabhupāda: (Chuckling) But that education is there, the beginning, in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā and the education is there, that, immediately Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, there is the soul. This is the beginning of education. But there are many learned scholars; they do not believe in the soul. That is the difficulty. They do not believe. A big, big professor.... I have been in Moscow. Professor Kotovsky, he said, "No, there is no soul. After this finishing of the body, everything is finished."

Yogi Bhajan: But they don't have experience.

Prabhupāda: Therefore... So if you assemble some not experienced men, then how there will be unity?

Yogi Bhajan: No, granted. What we are trying to do is we are giving out a call to all learned, the unlearned... But basic fact is: there is a desire somewhere in the ether that everybody wants to feel each other. And they have not done anything good by negating each other or talking negatively. They have not gained anything. They have realized it now. Otherwise...

Prabhupāda: Now, what will be the basic principle of unity? That is the point.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Well, they no spiritual information. That is the... Therefore the first education is to understand what is spirit. Then spiritual knowledge is... They do not know what is spirit. (break) ...imāni bhūtāni bhavanti. That is spirit, the original source of everything. This body, original source is the spirit. As soon as the spirit is not there, the body will not grow. They are seeing actually. Therefore the original source is the spirit. Why the dead child does not grow? Or dead young man does not grow? They have not studied still, what is the cause? If it is chemical, then inject some chemical, if you know it, and make it grow. Is there any... Why they cannot do it? Why do they say it is chemical? Chemical you have got in your possession. So inject the dead child and it will grow, then it is correct. And where is that? Simply bogus propaganda. And we have to accept it? Either they must say that "Yes, it is chemical, but we did not find that chemical."

Morning Walks -- June 18-19, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Unless they are taught about spiritual attraction, everyone will be finished. (break) ...very childhood they should be given spiritual education. (break) ...by repressive method you will never be successful.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Repression is also due to frustration. That they can't convince someone... (break)

Prabhupāda: Russians are doing that by repression.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Then whenever their back is turned the people do something else. Or they will stab them in the... (break)

Prabhupāda: They do that? (break) Leaders?

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. (break) Yes. So the only way that they can attract them is to just let them free in the school. But I said that... (break)

Prabhupāda: I have seen in the Hawaii University, all hippies.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But we don't follow that process. We follow one standard knowledge. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is our distinction between the ordinary scholars and our... And we are on the safe side because we don't manufacture, speculate. That is troublesome. If I have to defeat you, then I will have to speak so many things. I will have to find out the device how can I defeat you. But we have got one standard knowledge. I may be fool, rascal, but we repeat Kṛṣṇa. So our method is very easy. We are challenging everyone. Just like there are many scientific disciples. So I am not a science man. I have never studied science. But scientists, they are becoming my disciple. From material point of view, I have no education in science, but why the scientist is becoming my disciple? Is he becoming fool? After taking his doctorate title, he is becoming fool so that he is accepting me as spiritual master? Therefore the Vedic injunction is correct when it says, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātam bhavanti. "If you know Kṛṣṇa perfectly well, then you know everything well." That is the Vedic injunction. So unless you know Kṛṣṇa well, your knowledge is imperfect. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Veda means knowledge. So there are different departmental knowledge. So Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvaiḥ. All departmental knowledge, when they come to the understanding of Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. So long he does not come to Kṛṣṇa, he is imperfect.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That information we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, after giving up this material, he is not coming any more with this material body. This is our philosophy. And if you again die and again come another material body, so what is the use of this education? You cannot dictate that "My mother nature, don't make me a dog next life." She is not subjected to your dictation. She is subjected by Kṛṣṇa's dictation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). She is not your servant, you are servant of the nature. So you are declaring independence, but you are servant of the material nature. That they are not thinking. Unnecessarily they are thinking independence. What is the nonsense independence? You are dependent on the laws of nature, and you are thinking independence. How much foolishness it is. This is psychology. They are wrongly thinking how to correct them. Is it not? Are they not wrongly thinking? Everyone is thinking, "I am independent. I can do whatever I like." How much foolish he is.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: If he... As he likes, if he infects some disease, he must suffer from the disease. Where is his independence? If you infect some disease, infectious disease, then you must suffer from the disease. That is nature's law. So where is your independence? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). It is all described. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Why there are so many varieties of life? Because he has associated with a particular type of modes of nature and he has got the body. Without any human sense he has learned to eat anything and everything, without any discrimination. Therefore nature will give the body of a pig. "All right, you eat anything up to stool. Up to stool you can eat." So how can you stop it? And because nature has given this body, he is relishing very good taste from stool. But this body, you cannot relish what is enjoyment in the stool. But because he has no discrimination of food, nature has given him, "All right, you can eat up to stool." Human life is meant for civilization, and they are trying to be naked. So next life will be: "All right, you remain naked standing as tree for five thousand years." How can you stop it? Wherefrom these varieties of life are coming? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). This is kāraṇam, that he is associating with different modes of material nature and he is getting a suitable body. So where is that science to understand this subtle work of nature? Where is that science? Where is that education in the universities? You are not free. You cannot say "that I shall live life like this." You can live, but take the risk of next life. Therefore they avoid this question: "There is no next life." That is very horrible. But that does not mean... Just like the, what is that animal? Closes the eyes?

Jayatīrtha: Ostrich.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Ostrich. When there is danger, it closes eyes: "No danger." But that does not mean no danger. The danger is there. You may close your eyes. This is going on. The whole education system is foolish. Because they are thinking independent.

Bahulāśva: Now we can change that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with this college. We can get our men in all religious departments.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our duty, to give them knowledge. The knowledge is there. The candidates are there. Only the guardians should be sane, that "Save the children." Otherwise they will produce only hippies. That's all. (break) So long you will work on the mental plane, then the tendency will be that "Let me refute you, and I become prominent." And he will think that "Let me refute him. I become." This business will go on. But there will be no end of philosophy. So what is the use of such philosophy, simply continually go on mentally speculating, no conclusion? Philosophy means, "Here is the conclusion."

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: No, why? Everyone. We have no such discrimination. But not cats and dogs. (laughter) Human being. Never mind what he is.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Māyāpur you were speaking about you wanted Māyāpur to become a college for the University of Calcutta?

Prabhupāda: No, why Māyāpur? Everywhere. The whole educational system should be changed.

Bahulāśva: We should take it over.

Prabhupāda: Not changed. At least this will remain as a departmental knowledge.

Bahulāśva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is not possible to make wholesale change, but at least let them accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness as a departmental knowledge.

Bahulāśva: We were wondering if Ravīndra-svārupa could come and help on this project. Because if we can get established in Berkeley first... It's such a big university.

Prabhupāda: Yes, do that.

Morning Walk -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: But why, then, the lavatory they have made distinction for woman and for men?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now in the colleges there's no more distinction.

Jayatīrtha: Co-educational bathrooms.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One bathroom. One residence, one bathroom...

Revatīnandana: The boys and girls live in the same residence on the same floors and use the same bathrooms. Practically there is no restriction on the association. They're not married.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Congress just passed a law that the health education, means the gym, gymnastic classes... Every day there's physical education class?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Must be co-educational. They must be. They passed a law like that.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: ...advises Arjuna that "I am... The body and the soul different."

Dr. John Mize: The body and soul are different, yes. So it seems to me too.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. That is the beginning of spiritual education. People do not understand. I have seen many European big, big professors. They do not have any clear conception that the body and the soul, different.

Dr. John Mize: It still disturbs me, of course, how the body can influence the mind so much, the mind not being the soul apparently. But I know that when I get hit on the back of the head, my mind seems to blank out. Once in judo I recall having my carotid artery pressed and consciousness left. But it was very pleasant. It was not unpleasant at all.

Prabhupāda: No. Actually soul is above intelligence. Above intelligence. Our gross senses, that is our present perception, direct. And beyond these gross senses, there is the mind. And beyond the mind, there is intelligence. And beyond intelligence, there is soul. So come to that platform requires that meditation process to make the sense activities calm and quiet, mind settle, and then come to the intelligence platform, then come to the spiritual platform.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa created these four division, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, but He does not belong to any one of them. He is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya nor śūdra. He is transcendental. Similarly, our philosophy—just to make the human society very peaceful and making progress we wish to establish this system. A first-class man, group of men, brāhmaṇas, they will guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas, the administrators, they will guide the vaiśya. Vaiśya means agriculture and cow protection and trade. And śūdra means those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśyas. They are simply worker, assistant. So there must be division like this. The brāhmaṇas should guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas will administer the state, and the vaiśyas will produce foodstuff, and śūdras will help. Cooperation for common benefit. But the aim is spiritual realization. That is perfect society. If everyone is śūdra, without any aim of life, then there will be chaos. Just like in your country, in spite of so much facility for education, the students are produced hippies, useless for all purposes. Why? I have gone to so many universities. I have seen the students, hippies. And if you say that "If you act like cats and dogs, you will become dog next life," they say, "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" (laughter) This is education. He is prepared to become a dog. He does not know what is the distinction between dog and human being. He is seeking after the dog's facility that he can have sex on the street. He is thinking the dog life is advantageous. This is the position. Therefore Professor Judah has written me this letter, that "I am simply surprised how you have converted the drug-addicted hippies into servant of Kṛṣṇa and the humanity." This is his words.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: By taking lesson from professors who has mind clear. Why the students are coming to you? Because his mind is not clear. You have to clear his mind by teaching him psychology, feeling, thinking, feeling, willing. Therefore he has to come to a learned man who knows how to understand mind, how to understand the activities of the mind, how to deal with them. That requires education. A dog cannot take this education, but a human being can take. Therefore it is the duty of the human being, how to control the mind, not act like cats and dogs. That is human being. He should be inquisitive, "Why this happening? Why this happening?" and he should take education. That is human life. And if he does not inquire, if he does not take education, then what is the difference between him and the dog? He remains a dog. He has got this opportunity of human life. He should take advantage of understanding what is what, not to keep himself in the dog status, simply eating, sleeping, sex life, and defending. That is the distinction between dog and human being. If he does not become inquisitive how to control the mind, he is not even a human being. A dog never inquires.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Therefore he says, "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" Because there is no education. He does not know the difference between dog and the human being. Therefore he says that "What is the wrong if I become a dog? I will get more facility for sex without any criminal charges." This is the advancement of education.

Dr. John Mize: How does the mind, then, come to know that there is a soul?

Prabhupāda: That I say, that you have to educated. How these people are convinced about the soul? They have been educated by practice and by knowledge. Everything has to be learned by being educated. And therefore the Vedic injunction is tad-vijñānārtham, "In order to know that science," gurum eva abhigacchet, "you must go to guru, teacher." So the answer is that you must go to the teacher who can teach you how the soul is there.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: By the material life, these are our field of activities. The body is a combination of all these things. Just like a huge computer machine. It is made of these material things, but the mechanical parts are very minute, different. All these are matter. But within this matter, because the soul is there, therefore the finest machine is working. Just like your composition machine, (imitates machine:) "Kut, kut, kut, kut, kut, kut." But one has to push the button; otherwise useless. However very nicely made the machine, without a living being's touch, it is useless. So all this big machine, body, is wonderful so long the soul is there. And as soon as the soul is out it is lump of matter, useless, not worth a penny. Throw it away. So we are giving importance to the machine, not to the person who is dealing with the machine. This is the folly of modern civilization. We are thinking like child, "The machine is working independently." But that is not the fact. The big airship, 747, is flying because the pilot is there, and the pilot is a soul, covered by another bodily machine. And that, that is missing point in the modern civilization, that who is working with the machine. That they do not know. That is ignorance. It is said—you see Bhagavad-gītā,

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

(BG 18.61)

Yantra means machine. So the modern education is missing the pilot. They are simply wandering with the machine.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That's it. They do not consider this body as machine. In spite of all education, they are thinking that there is no other element than this machine. And actually, they are finding that big, nice machine, computer, without an operator, it does not work. And this huge machine is working without any spiritual touch? Just see how foolishness. They think automatically working. Nature is working automatically. Do they not think?

John Mize: They think there's a mind, but not a soul.

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Something is there which is working. Now that may be mistake. You call it soul or mind. That is next understanding. But the machine is not working independently. That should be understood first. Then how the machine is working that will be next chapter. So they have no understanding even that how the machine is working. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). That they do not know, mūḍhas. So if you do not know how the machine is working then what is the value of your education? Education means enlightenment. You do not know what is the final cause, that huge body is working as nature, so many planets, so many big, big planets like sun, moon, they are floating in the air. Who has made this arrangement? They are... We see every day. They will never accept God is the original cause. That thing does not come to their brain. They are putting forward different theories and that is being accepted. One theory is accepted today, and tomorrow, "No, no, this is not. Here is another, advanced theory." That advanced means he does not know.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is the proof, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). When the body is finished, no more working, the soul is there, he has accepted another body. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Those who are educated, sober they are not surprised. Those who are not educated, they are surprised. Therefore this very word is used, dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra means one who is sober by education. He knows the soul has now left this body. He has accepted another body. That is dhīra. He knows by education. Therefore this very word... Find out.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanam jara

tatha dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

Bahulāśva: That's Chapter number two, text thirteen. "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."

Prabhupāda: That's it. He does not lament. "No, this body is no more useful." Just like this dress is no more useful. Throw it away. Accept another dress. But dress is old, now it is useless, that does not (mean) you are useless. You accept another dress. That's all.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Bahulāśva: So the soul is the conscious worker of the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A little mistake will cause disaster. Therefore education means to protect him from committing mistake. This is education. And if you keep him in the darkness, what is the value of education? (aside:) Get that switch on. Education means enlightenment. One should know "What I am? I am this body or something else other than the body?" This is education. That is self-realization. "Oh, I am not this body; I am soul. And I am simply working for the body? What I am doing for me? I say, 'It is my body,' so I am working for my, and what for the 'I?' " Where is that education? If you simply take care of "my" and don't take care of "I," is that education? That taking care of "my" is done by the dog, and taking care of "I" is done by the human being. That is the difference. The dog, as soon as he sees another foreign dog in that neighborhood, he begins barking, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" So we are doing the same business in the immigration department: "Why you have come? Have you got visa?" This is civilization, but the dog's business. "Gow! Gow!" In Paris I went without visa, and they detained me for four hours. Well, a human being has come here. Why the immigration law so strict? But that is advancement of civilization.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That means they have created thieves and rogues. Therefore they are suspicious. Nowadays in the airport, everyone is searched. Then it is now taken for granted that all of them are cheats. So what is the value of this education if all of them are cheats? There is no discrimination, "Now, here is a educated professor, Dr. Ph.D., he cannot be searched." No, he will be also searched-because, "You may be Ph.D., but we know you are a cheat." (laughter) Is not the conclusion? Will he be excused if he says, "Oh, I am Ph.D." No, you must be searched. "You may be Ph.D., but you are a cheat." This is education. So what is the value of this education? And according to Vedic civilization, as soon as one is a brāhmaṇa, he is not within the jurisdiction of administration, immediately. The government has no right to check in his activities. Because he knows he is a brāhmaṇa. Four person, four or five, they are excused from the jurisdiction of law. The first is brāhmaṇa, the second is cow, the third is woman, and the fourth is old man, and fifth is the child. These five persons are not in the jurisdiction of law. No. Just like we have got practical. If a child comes and takes my spectacle away, he is not criminal. Everyone knows. But if a man takes my spectacle, then he is criminal. Similarly, a brāhmaṇa is never criminal. A cow is never criminal. These are the Vedic civilization. Woman, woman is also excused. No punishment for woman.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Jayatīrtha: In today's society that standard is unimaginable.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore there is no adjustment. Everyone is suffering in spite of so-called education. Nobody is happy.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the professor was also saying that Kant had a theistic viewpoint also. He believed that there was God and what other things were you saying?

John Mize: The nature of God? Kant's view?

Bahulāśva: Kant's philosophy.

John Mize: That the purpose of the human existence is to improve it's moral nature, to reunite ultimately with God, to be pleasing to God. So it's similar in that sense. He apparently disagrees on the origin...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sattva-guṇa. Good character means sattva-guṇa, to become brāhmaṇa and then love God. This is Vedic civilization.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Learned scholars, philosophers, they should understand the importance of this movement and how it is beneficial. They are suffering for want of knowledge of the spirit soul. They are keeping themselves in the animal platform with their so-called education, but unless there is spiritual understanding, the education has no value. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇa mano-rathena asato dhavato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). He will remain on the mental platform. And mind is now materially contaminated. So even if he remains in the mental platform, he remains in the material platform. He cannot make any improvement. One has to come to the spiritual platform. That is required.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: ...which is fact? The dreams and phases of different life while passing through, they are facts or I am fact? What is your answer? We are teaching that, you take care of the fact, not of the dreams. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We are changing circumstances. The circumstances are not fact but the whole world is taking care of the circumstances not of the sheer fact. This is the defect of modern civilization. We are very much serious about the passing on circumstances, but we are not serious about the person who is going through the circumstances. This is the whole defect of modern civilization. And that is the beginning of real life. If we take care of the circumstances, that is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs, everyone. Where to find eatables, where to find sex, where to find shelter for sleeping, and how to defense—these circumstances are understood by the animals. There is no need of education. Just like this morning I pointed out. The bird is catching a small fish, "Fut!" He knows where to find out his eatable. And that you cannot do. You also eat fish, but you jump over and take a fish. You cannot do that.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That we have left to the sentimentalist. Why don't the scientists do not take up this work very seriously, "If there is God, where He is? Who is God?" That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, athāto brahma jijñāsā. So you are all learned scholars. You join this movement and help us. To keep people in darkness, that is not advancement of education. And education does not mean how to find out a fish expertly. That is being done by the birds. Education means to solve the problem of life. And what is the real problem? Birth, death, old age, and disease. That is real problem. So where is the remedy for this birth, death, old age, and disease? That is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We are trying, our struggle for existence means we are trying to mitigate how to avoid distress. We want happiness. And Kṛṣṇa presents that "Here is your distress, that you have to die. What you have done for this? Here is your real distress. You might have taken your birth in rich American nationality or might have very good skyscraper building and very, very, nice motor cars.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dharmādhyakṣa: And this is Dr. John Pore. He is the chairman of the religion department at the University of Southern California, and he has written a few books called "The Radical Suburb" and "Ethical Choice," and his academic interest is in ethics and religion and culture and education in public policy. And this is Dr. Crossley back here, also from the University of Southern California. He has a doctor of theology, and he is interested in modern theology. He's written many articles on modern theologians...

Prabhupāda: Then why modern theology? (laughter) Is God modern?

Dr. Crossley: No, but one can't do all theologians, one can't do every theologian.

Prabhupāda: No, "theo" means God, is it not?

Dr. Crossley: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And theology is science of God. So what is that science? You are trying to understand God, or you know God; you are going to abide by God's dictation. First of all, two things: you do not know God; you are trying to find out God. I think this is not theology; it is theosophy. Those who are trying to find out God by speculation, they are theosophist. And theologist means one who knows God and abides by his order. Just like we know government and we accept the government's law and abide by it. That is good citizenship. And those who have no government, they are trying to find out some good system of government, and that is another thing. So what is your position? You know God or you are trying to find out God? What is the theologician's position? That is my question.

Morning Walk -- June 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is my question. (break) Just like in India, for higher technological knowledge, they come to foreign countries. So for knowledge, we can take it from anywhere. There should not be sectarianism, "Oh, why shall I take knowledge from here and there?" Wherever knowledge is available, we should take it. That is the real position of seeker of knowledge. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, nīcād apy uttamā vidyā strī-ratnaṁ duṣkulād api. He says, viṣād apy amṛtaṁ grāhyam. Viṣa, viṣa means poison. "In the pot of poison, if there is little nectar in, take it." Viṣād apy amṛtaṁ grāhyam. Poison is not to be touched, but if there is little nectar in, take it. And amedhyād api kāñcanam: "And in a filthy place there is gold. Take it." Not that gold has been polluted because it is in the filthy place. If there is gold in the filthy place, don't hesitate. Take it. And nīcād apy uttamā vidyā. Generally, people used to take education from brāhmaṇa. So Cāṇakya Paṇḍita advises that "If there is education, actual education, even he is a lower class man, śūdra or caṇḍāla, take it. Accept him as master." And nīcād apy uttamā vidyā. Nīcād apy uttamā vidyā strī-ratnaṁ duṣkulād api. And in India, according to Vedic civilization, the marriage is done after seeing the family tradition very scrutinizingly. So here it is advised that duṣkulād api, "In a abominable family, if there is nice girl, educated, beautiful, accept her. Accept her." Nīcād apy uttamā vidyā strī-ratnam. Ratnam means jewel. Wife, she is like jewel although born of a low family, accept. So anything very good, even it is available from a place which is not desirable, one should accept it. So if you are actually seeking after God, so here is God available from Vedic literature. Why don't you take it? Why you should refuse it? That is not very good sign.

Morning Walk -- June 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dr. Judah: Yes. Well, they have tried to give descriptions, but, of course, I think all descriptions that have been given of God are, as descriptions are inadequate. Because in my own feeling I believe that the full knowledge of God comes through the actual experience of God, experiencing God in our lives.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that experience you can get. Just like God is describing Himself. Now, why don't you take that? Your description may be defective because you are imperfect. But if God Himself is giving His, I mean to say, identification, why don't you take it? Not only gives description, He acts according to the description. When Kṛṣṇa was present, He says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7), "There is no more superior element." He proved it when He was present. There was no more superior power than Him when Kṛṣṇa was present. In His opulence, in His richness, in His strength, in His education—everything, all topmost, Kṛṣṇa. All topmost. The proof is that because you get the topmost knowledge, therefore Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world, accepted, topmost knowledge. All scholars, all philosophers, all religionists, they read it.

Morning Walk -- June 27, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is not husband. Husband must be very responsible to take care of the wife, and wife must be very chaste to serve the husband. Then family life is all right. (break) ...do not understand that "I am a living entity. I am encaged in this material body, and this material body means subjected to so many miserable condition." That they cannot understand. So my first business is how to be free from this repetition of accepting a material body. That they are not... A temporary life for fifty years or sixty years, they are busy, making very, very, gorgeous arrangement. This is asuric civilization. He does not take it very seriously that "I am encaged in this material body. My first business is how to get out of it and remain in my spiritual body." They get one type of body, and, like cats and dogs, engage, how to keep that body in sense gratification. That's all. (break) ...spiritual education, that "I am spiritual, spirit soul. I am encaged in this body. I want freedom. That is my first business, how to become liberated." No, that question set aside. Now, for the time being, we are walking here, and if there is some misunderstanding, we fight, forgetting that we have come here for walking, say, for half an hour. And why we shall forget our real business? That intelligence is not there. (break) ...India the Indira Gandhi was made as all in all. Now there is a catastrophe. We do not know what is going to happen.

Morning Walk -- June 28, 1975, Denver:

Prabhupāda: Now there's a warrant for his arrest. What he can do? And he is God? God is so cheap and you have accepted him as God? What is this nonsense? But we give you credit, that you are searching after God. That is... So try to understand by education. What is this nonsense, blindly accepting some rascal as God? Everyone knows God is great. Is he great? Then why he is punished by the court? This is the park?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And very nice park. And not far away. (break) ...interested with this natural history. That means Darwin's theory. That's all. Their whole civilization is based on this Darwin's theory. How long you shall keep history? Do you know what is the history of the sun, when it was created, when it came into appearance? Can Darwin give us the history of the sun, of the moon, of the sky? Where is the history? There is history, but where is your history? You simply imagine, "There was a chunk, and it became manifested as the sun, moon, and I am also this..." What is this? How this cosmic manifestation came into existence—your explanation is: "There was a chunk." And what other nonsense? (break) walking: ...house is on the water? No. (break) ...coughing. Catch cold?

Morning Walk -- June 28, 1975, Denver:

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very dangerous place. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadam (SB 10.14.58). This is a place—in every step there is danger. We are walking in a very nice park. At any moment there may be revolution, whole thing is changed. Whole thing is, becomes fire. Just like, in India now it has become. So we should remember that here in this material world, padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadam, every step there is danger. Give up this place. That is the real intelligence. And the education misleading them, māyā-sukhāya, making gorgeous plans for temporary happiness. That's all. If in the slaughterhouse the animals are kept very comfortably, so what is the meaning of it?

Brahmānanda: They'll still be slaughtered.

Prabhupāda: Eh? What is the meaning?

Satsvarūpa: No meaning.

Prabhupāda: It is sure that all the animals will be slaughtered, and if the arrangement is "All right, before being slaughtered, let them live very comfortably," is that very good intelligence? The intelligence is "Why we shall be slaughtered?" That is intelligence. What is the meaning of slaughterhouse? Who can explain?

Brahmānanda: Everyone dies there.

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: So they were habituated to all... Because that is a system in the European, American life. But now they are free. That is Professor Judah's remark in his letter. Have you got that? Yes. He has written one book, Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counterculture, about our movement. He has read all our books. Here are, you have shown all these books? So he appreciates, many gentlemen appreciate, even the priestly class, they also appreciate. So this is a movement which is trying to create at least a section to become first-class. The first-class man does not mean that he is nicely dressed or very rich or very opulent. Generally, of course, a first-class man means good parentage, good education, good looking and nicely rich. That is the standard. But... That may be first-class position, but first-class man is different. First-class man means he is self-controlled, in the mind he is undisturbed, he is truthful, he is very clean, inside and outside, he is very simple, tolerant, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge, and believe in God. This is first-class man. There is no mention that he is rich, he is beautiful, bodily, or he is educated. Educated, this is a result of education. Real education means that he is self controlled. Controlling the mind, controlling the senses, truthful. He will speak truth in any circumstances.

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want the translation to it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."

Prabhupāda: So this education is required. America is resourceful and they are intelligent. And the movement is already there, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, people are appreciating gradually. So if we get little cooperation from the authorities, we can push on this movement more solidly. So you are the chief of this city. If you give us some facility, then we can be useful to counteract this position.

Mayor: Well, we'd like to cooperate and we certainly need a different approach I think because we're not being successful now in trying to...

Prabhupāda: No, this way will never be successful. It will degrade more and more. So our process is very simple. That is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's contribution, that we chant... Where is that letter? Professor Judah's? Just read that.

Room Conversation with Lt. Mozee, Policeman -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: But where is the education about God? Simply, trust is also good, very good, but simple trust will not endure unless you know scientifically what is God. Everyone knows that he has got a father, but he does not know who is his father. That knowledge is not perfect. Everyone who is born in this material world must have a father, but that is not sufficient suggestion. One must know who is father. That education is lacking.

Lt. Mozee: Do you feel, sir, that it is lacking only here in the United States?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere.

Lt. Mozee: Everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. This is the age of forgetting God. We say it is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means the age of misunderstanding. And that is, I said, dirty things within the heart. So God is so powerful that if we chant the holy name of God, then we become purified. So our movement is based on this principle, chant the holy name of God. We give all facilities to everyone without any distinction that "You come with us. Come in our temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and take little prasādam, refreshment, and gradually you become purified." So if the government authorities give us facilities for this business, that we hold mass saṅkīrtana, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them little prasādam, then we are sure the whole place will change.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: They are not being properly utilized. People are complaining, "Overpopulation." Now countries which are overpopulated, they are not allowed to utilize the vacant land, neither people are being trained how to produce food grain. They are being trained up, technology, to produce motor tire. And nobody is interested to produce food grain. So without taking food grains, they are killing animals, and they are eating, short cut. They do not know killing of animals is sinful activity. This is the... Man is advanced; we can grow food. This killing of animals is for the non-civilized society. They cannot... They do not know how to grow food. They were killing animals. When man is advanced in his knowledge and education, why they should kill? Especially in America, we see so many nice foodstuffs. Fruits, grains, milk. And from milk, you can get hundreds of nice preparations, all nutritious. In our New Vrindaban we are doing that—rabri, pera, burfi. The other farmers are surprised that from milk such nice preparation can be prepared. So instead of teaching them—you Indian, you know how to utilize milk and prepare so many nice preparation,—you are learning how to eat meat. Why? So if you forget your culture and if you become victimized, that is your fault.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Jayatīrtha: At the same time in that Time article it discussed that about fifty percent of the crime was done by children under eighteen and people are afraid even to go to the schools.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not educated properly. Not only that they have given photograph: the children take small..., yes, weapon, knife. And examination is held under police vigilance. This is the education.

Mrs. Wax: Some of us are parents of devotees and when you came to America nine years ago, eight years ago...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mrs. Wax: ...some young people were attracted to the message and responded and joined Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Is there a special reason? What explanation do you have why some...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The special reason was... That was published in one paper, Voice East. What is that?

Devotees: Village Voice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They wrote a very big article that "We thought God is dead but Swamiji has brought God in his kīrtana." They wrote this article. They found God's presence in Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. This Brahmānanda, he was attracted first.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: So society must be divided into four classes: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. That is general. Those who are endeavoring for realizing God, they are first-class men. Those who are less intelligent—they are trying to rule over the material world—they are second-class men. And those who are engaged in producing food and cow protection, they are third-class. And those who are useless for any of these three occupational duties, they are called fourth-class. And those who are still lower than that, they are called fifth-class, sixth-class, like that. So our educational system should be so arranged that there may be first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men, not less than fourth-class men. Then the social structure will be in order and everyone will be peaceful, aiming at the point, how to go back to home, back to Godhead. Unless there is such structure of the society... Just like in our body we have got four divisions, the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. All of them are required. But the position of the head and position of the leg are different. Head means giving direction, and arms means giving protection, and belly means receiving food for energy of the body, and leg means working. So the human society must be divided into four section, and they should work combinedly, cooperatively. Then there will be peaceful condition for realization of the goal of life, back to home, back to Godhead.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Training, every training should begin from childhood. Just like you send your boys and girls to school. So any educational system should be begin from childhood.

Reporter (2): What is the secret to learning to love God?

Prabhupāda: Secret of learning God?

Jagadīśa: Learning to love.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The secret—that he must be a first-class man. Otherwise he does not understand what is God, and what to speak of loving Him.

Reporter (3): What is the definition again of a first-class man?

Prabhupāda: First-class man? Where is that Bhagavad-gītā?

Brahmānanda: Bhagavad-gītā, they did not bring.

Prabhupāda: (aside:) What is the nonsense? You are all nonsense. First-class man, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that he should first of all try to..., not try, practice how to control the mind, how to control the senses. Then he must be truthful. He must be very clean, outside and inside. He must be very simple. He must be tolerant. He must be full of knowledge. He must apply knowledge in practical life. And he must believe in God. These are the qualification of the first-class man.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: God is great. "Great" means, "who is greater than you in every respect." We understand a rich man as very great, a wise man as very great, a strong man is very great, beautiful man is very great. In this way there are six opulences: riches, strength, wisdom, beauty, education... In this way the six opulences, when you find in somebody in full, in complete, without any competition, that is God.

Reporter (3): You listed five.

Jayatīrtha: The sixth one is renunciation.

Prabhupāda: Another, renunciation.

Reporter (3): Religious, strong, beautiful...

Prabhupāda: Religious?

Jayatīrtha: Wealthy, riches.

Reporter (3): Riches, strong, wise, beautiful, education, and renunciation.

Prabhupāda: These six opulences, when you find in the greatest quantity, nobody can excel. Here in America you have got rich man, but nobody can say that "I am the richest of all." But God can say that He is richest of all. He is strongest of all, He is wisest of all, He is the most beautiful, in this way where nobody can compete and nobody can surpass, that is God.

Morning Walk -- July 10, 1975, Chicago:

Jayatīrtha: ...that half of the people are disqualified already because they're women. It's not so bad.

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not bad. It is good. Now our policy should be that at Dallas we shall create first-class men, and we shall teach the girls two things. One thing is how to become chaste and faithful to their husband and how to cook nicely. If these two qualifications they have, I will take guarantee to get for them good husband. I'll personally... Yes. These two qualifications required. She must learn how to prepare first-class foodstuff, and she must learn how to become chaste and faithful to the husband. Only these two qualification required. Then her life is successful. So try to do that. (Car doors open, walk begins) Ordinary education is sufficient, ABCD. This is all nonsense, so big, big, sound education and later on become a prostitute. What is this education? (laughter) To make them prostitute, it doesn't require education. (break) Yesterday we saw in the television how these rascals are wasting time, talking nonsense. There was nothing, valuable talk. Foot... No, no, hand... What is that? Handprint? And the addicted murder? That was the case? (break) Within two weeks, two divorces.

Morning Walk -- July 12, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: Oh. So still they are rowing house? No.

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. It is a big sport. They race. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...idea is there in the western countries? No.

Kīrtanānanda: Not very much. Although the idea is there that the best education can be secured when boys are separate in school. That idea is there. The best families have always sent their sons away to school.

Prabhupāda: That should be followed in our system. Boys and girls must be separate. (break) ...introduce now. How long? What is time?

Brahmānanda: It's still a little early.

Prabhupāda: Early? (break)

Guru dāsa: The concept in sport of celibacy is also there. The best sportsmen are supposed to not take intoxicants or also engage in sex life. That was the training. (break)

Ravīndra-svarūpa: ...will end in this park here.

Prabhupāda: Oh. It will come this way?

Ravīndra-svarūpa: It will come from the other direction and end here.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is all physiological. And we have seen, studied, that any big man of the world, behind that big man is either a strong mother or a strong wife. That is the general statistics. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, mātā yasya gṛhe nāsti bharyā cāpriya-vādinī. If there is no mother at home and the wife is not very suitable, does not speak very nicely with husband, disrespectful, then he is recommended to leave home and go to the forest. Araṇyam tena gantavyaṁ yathāraṇyam tathā gṛham. Such person should immediately leave home and live in the forest because for him the forest and home is the same. Mātā yasya gṛhe nāsti bharyā cāpriya-vādinī. So women should be trained up to be very faithful and chaste. Then the life will be very happy. That is the only education for woman. And man should be educated how to become first-class man, a brāhmaṇa. Then the whole atmosphere will be very happy. The man, first-class man, brāhmaṇa, śamo damaḥ titikṣa, and woman, very faithful to such husband and chaste. Then the home is happy. And Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says another place, dampatyoḥ kalaho nāsti tatra śrīḥ svayam āgataḥ. "If there is no fight and disagreement between husband and wife, in that home the goddess of fortune automatically comes." They haven't got to search out where is goddess of fortune. She will come automatically. So that is now lacking. In most cases the husband and wife does not agree. And the other day I was reading in a paper that one woman in two weeks or three weeks...?

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: She has divorced two husbands. And when the press reporters asked her, she replied, "Yes, it was a mistake." And still, they want to be equal with man. She commits mistake twice in two week, and still she claims to be equal with man. So we have got our school, Dallas, we are teaching the small children to make the boys first-class men, as it is enunciated in the Bhagavad-gītā, and woman to become very faithful and chaste. That's all. This is our education. Then it will be very happy home and people will live very peacefully, and then other things can be executed. If the home is not peaceful, always disturbed in mind, and one has to adopt twice in a week divorce, then how there can be peace? This is not freedom, this is disturbance. Freedom does not mean disturbance of peace. Freedom means that maintenance of peace.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: So this instruction is strīṣu duṣṭāsu: "When women become polluted, there is unwanted population." That is coming all over the world, the hippies. Therefore the first thing is how to train up women not to become polluted. This is the way of... In the modern society they have given women freedom. That I have already explained. In the name of freedom of woman, they are being exploited. Everything is there: social, religious, political, cultural, educational. We have to accept that course. Then everything will be all right. If you don't accept, then you have to suffer problems. It is not meant for a particular class of men or particular country, it is meant for the whole human society. Therefore, this purification of the society at the present, fallen condition is very, very difficult to revive. Because people are so fallen, it is almost impossible. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended that "You all together chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and everything will be done nicely."

Conversation with Professor Hopkins -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prof. Hopkins: Why, why is that more necessary for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam than for Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: More... Bhāgavatam, I told you, it is a counterpart. Just like when you have passed the school examination then next you admit yourself for degree or graduate degree. Similarly, Bhāgavata is the end of education. Everyone is progressing. When one comes to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and understands it then his education is complete.

Prof. Hopkins: Then would it be, would it be dangerous for someone who is not at that level to study Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or would they simply not understand it?

Prabhupāda: Dangerous means if one is not completely educated of self-realization he has the risk of degradation.

Conversation with Professor Hopkins -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: This is the most important message. Because you are not this material body. Suppose you have got this shirt. If you simply try to maintain this shirt, is that very good intelligence, without taking care of your person? Similarly, if we are spirit soul and the body is just like dress, so the whole material world is, everyone is engaged to take care of the body. Nobody knows what is spirit soul, what is this need. Nobody knows. All these educational institutions, they are blind. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31). And the whole system is also blind. If a blind man leads another blind man what is the benefit? No benefit. Therefore in your country, every country, it is a blind education. No spiritual enlightenment.

Prof. Hopkins: What is the solution? What is the solution? Devotion to God...

Prabhupāda: First of all you know what is spirit. Then as soon as you know that you are spirit then wherefrom the spirit comes, or wherefrom everything comes? Then it comes to the question of God. And then we understand what is our relationship with God. And then if we act according to that, then it is perfect life.

Conversation with Professor Hopkins -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: In Chapter Two it is said... Arjuna was lamenting that "I shall fight and the other party they are my brother, so I will be sinful. So many problems will come." He was thinking like that. So Kṛṣṇa first gave him lesson that "Why you are thinking on the bodily concept of life? You are not body. You are spirit soul." Then He gave spiritual education.

Prof. Hopkins: So you must start with what the Gītā calls sāṅkhya-yoga then, but go on, and go on to bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupāda: Bhakti-yoga is said last. Sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). People are not prepared to take the sublime lesson immediately. Then he has to go step by step. So that is the system of Bhagavad-gītā.

Conversation with Professor Hopkins -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa does not mean change of dress. Sannyāsa means everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is sannyāsa.

Prof. Hopkins: What is your view of Śrī Aurobindo? (loud laughter) Or should I have left well enough alone? He is not an impersonalist, he's not a Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: He says that above the Māyāvāda philosophy there is something else, super. That is bhakti. (indistinct) ...bhakti, but he could not understand because he did not take any education from realized person. He wanted to realize himself. That is his defect.

Prof. Hopkins: So one who... You would see his effort to transcend, I suppose you would call it...

Prabhupāda: That effort was for life after life. Then when his effort will be successful he will realize Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19).

Prof. Hopkins: So his problem was the effort to attempt to do this on his own without going through...

Prabhupāda: The guru.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Then why you are so much proud of having all the knowledge? Then you admit that you are a rascal. You have no... You are dependent, and you are trying to be independent. That is not being possible, therefore you are rascal. Your education has no meaning because you are dependent and you are trying to be independent.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Most professors nowadays, they will admit that they have no absolute knowledge, that everything they know is relative and that there might be something much better than what they are teaching.

Prabhupāda: There might... There is. But you rascal, you do not take it. That is your fault. There is, not "There might be." Here is Bhagavad-gītā. (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā it is said, etat jñānam: "This is knowledge, and all other things, they are not knowledge." Etat jñānam.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: The same logic, "Cheerfully be hanged." That's all. As soon as there is some difficult subject, they give up. And they speculate on some nonsense thing. That's all. This is their education. Education means atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛtti, the ultimate solution of all unhappiness. That is education, not that after coming to some extent, "No, you can die happily." And what is duhkha, unhappiness? That is presented by Kṛṣṇa: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9). These are your unhappiness. Try to solve it. And that they are carefully avoiding. They cannot stop death, neither birth, nor old age, nor disease. And during the short period of life, birth and death, they are making big, big buildings, and next time he is becoming one rat within the buildings. (laughter) Nature. You cannot avoid the nature's law. As you cannot avoid death, similarly, nature will give you another body. Become a tree in this university. Stand up for five thousand years. You wanted to be naked. Now nobody will object. You stand here naked.

Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Bahulāśva: They do that also. They have a fad now. It's called streakers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore their punishment is to become tree, to cat, dog, like that. That they cannot explain, why there is cat life, dog life, human life, rich(?) life. That they cannot do. All big questions, they have avoided. And they remain perpetually a rascal. That is their education. Mūḍha, Kṛṣṇa says, mūḍha, narādhama: "Lowest of the mankind." Human life was meant for real education. They remain the same rascal and dies very happily. Mūḍhas.

Press Conference -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Everything will be polished if Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is taken. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If this God consciousness is spread, then everyone will be brilliantly qualified. And without God consciousness, the so-called education as we were discussing in the morning, there is no value in it. Simply they are talking. What is the subject matter we were talking?

Bahulāśva: Psychology this morning.

Prabhupāda: The result is the students are falling down from the tower in disappointment. And they are protected with glass.

Bahulāśva: In the bell tower on Berkeley campus students in the 60's would jump from that tower to kill themselves. So they put glass there to stop the students from jumping. So Prabhupāda was explaining that is their education, that after getting their education, they have to jump to commit suicide. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: This is not education. Vidyā dadhāti namratā. Educated means he is humble, gentle, sober, full of knowledge, practical application in life of knowledge, tolerant, control of the mind, control of the senses. That is education. What is this education?

Press Conference -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Reporter (2): Will this college be quite different from our conventional college which has a great emphasis on athletics, I mean, football teams and...

Prabhupāda: Well, an education... A highly educated man does not require athletics. He requires good brain. Just like high-court judge, he requires a good brain, not a big gigantic body.

Bhaktadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the significance of the chant which everyone who has been around the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement has heard? What is the significance of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Chanting means the holy name of the Lord. The Lord is absolute. His name is not different from Him. So if you chant properly or improperly even, then immediately you be in touch with God. And as you become in touch with God, you become purified. So as you become purified, you know, actually you can see perfectly what is the aim of your life, how the human form of life should be utilized. These thing will be revealed. This is the process of chanting. Try to understand.

Press Conference -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: The thing is that any system you take, without God consciousness it is zero. Just like hundreds and thousands of zeros, if you put together, the value is zero. But if you put one, the value increases immediately. That one is God. So either in politics or in sociology or philosophy, religion, everywhere, if there is no God sense, it is all zero. That is going on. Therefore, despite all advancement of education, economic development, people are in chaotic condition, they are not satisfied, and everything is being tried to make it very nice. The United Nation is there, working for the last thirty years, but there is no solution because it is all zero without God. Bring God and everything will be nice. Take any question, just like economic question. There is now very acute, especially in our country. Now, the God says that "Your economic problem will be solved like this." What is that? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) "You produce sufficient quantity of food grains." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: "Then both the animals and man will sufficiently eat, and they will be satisfied." What is the wrong there? You must have sufficient food. Then annād bhavanti bhūtāni. And anna, producing anna, you require cloud in the sky. And that is produced by yajña. So one after another. So people must be satisfied first of all by eating sumptuously. So instead of producing food grains, you are very much busy for producing motor tires. So motor tire will not make the hungry people satisfied. So everything is there, practical, whatever is advised in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Morning Walk -- July 18, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. They should scientifically explain what is Kṛṣṇa. Then their science is perfect. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22), education, tapasya, sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddha-dattayoḥ, charity and gentleness, all good qualities. So kavibhiḥ nirūpito. Kavibhiḥ, big personalities they have decided, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam. If, by their knowledge they can establish vāsudevaḥ sarvam..., Kṛṣṇa is the origin, then their scientific knowledge is perfect. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito. Kavibhiḥ means great learned scholars. They have decided like this, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇanuvarṇanam, instead of talking all nonsense, "This is this. This is this," if they can scientifically explain that "Kṛṣṇa is the original scientist, and His brain has done this like this, like this..." That is Bhāgavata, who is the original scientist, who is original philosopher, original—everything original. Anādir ādir govindaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Govinda is the origin of everything. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Vāsudeva is the original founder. That is a fact. The origin is Kṛṣṇa, but they do not find it. Now, this sprinkling is being done, water and air. Now, who is the origin of air and water? You have combined together, utilizing as a spray, but who is the origin of air and water? You cannot manufacture air or water. You are taking advantage of it by mixing together, sprinkling, but where is the origin of water and air?

Morning Walk -- July 20, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: What experiments they have made?

Siddha-svarūpa: Well, these particular tests and so on that they're using. So it seems that he ought to change. Because somebody started doing that, right? I mean, they didn't always use those tests. They always change different kinds of tests and everything. Instead of being limited, he should offer a new method of observation, a new method of tests.

Prabhupāda: It is simple, but because of their bad education, they cannot understand the simple thing.

Bahulāśva: They want everything complicated.

Prabhupāda: Complicated. The experiment is there. Observation is there. Everything is there. And the eternity is there. Kṛṣṇa begins like reasonable gentleman, not humbug. He says, tathā-dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), very good example, that "As in this, body is changing from this stage to this stage, this stage, this stage, step by step, similarly," tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, "similarly another body." So where is the difficulty to understand? So if this is accepted, then immediately you can accept that the soul which is changing body, he is eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate. Therefore he was never born, never died.

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Then they are fools. They should stop all this education. This university should be broken. (laughter) Because they are producing only fools. That's all. They should stop this education.

Bahulāśva: Donate all these buildings to you.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. The buildings will remain there, but they will be finished. What is this education? They do not know what is God, what is soul, and what is the meaning of education? Simply bodily concept of life like cats and dogs, so what is the use of education? They remain cats and dogs. That is no value.

Bahulāśva: They cannot live happily either or peaceful.

Prabhupāda: Because they are, basically they are mistaken, how they can be happy? Basically they are mistaken. How you can be happy? They do not know what is happiness.

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Yadunandana: The reason why the western world is so much involved in science is because the religions that have been presented here in the West have cheated the people economically...

Prabhupāda: No, why cheated? The Christian religion says God created.

Devotee (4): But the followers do not practice this idea. The original idea is very nice.

Prabhupāda: No, they became over-intelligent by so-called education.

Bahulāśva: Over-intelligent?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: How is that?

Prabhupāda: Over-intelligence means rascal. Intelligence is good, but over-intelligence means rascal.

Bahulāśva: How does that happen, when he becomes over-intelligent?

Prabhupāda: Over-intelligent, it is sarcastically said. More than intelligent.

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Religious..., not dogma. Just like in Christian religion it is said that "God created this." So this is a fact, but it is not properly explained. And neither the followers understood how to explain, third-class men. So therefore they should accept, that's all. They should accept. Just like one thing, sweetmeat. A child is tasting. So if the child wants how it is made, so he has no power to understand. Therefore he should be simply ordered, "You simply eat. That's all." So in the Bible it is like that. And therefore it is strictly ordered that "You should follow." The things are there but they are not explained because they were third-class men. Otherwise why the commandment was, "Thou shalt not kill," and they killed first of all Jesus Christ? So what class of men they were? All third-class, fourth-class men. How they will understand? Now people have become, by education, advanced...

Bahulāśva: We should go this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because they have these sprinklers on here.

Prabhupāda: Now they should come to big dictionary. This is Vedic. The Vedic truth is there, but it is not properly explained because the men were fourth-class. Now the people have become advanced. They should take to Vedic literature. Then they will understand how God created. But it was not explained because the people, they were living in the desert and shepherds and all fourth-class, fifth-class men. And now they, these first-class men, all advanced men, they are trying to adjust the tenth-class ideas, and therefore they are becoming rejecting, that "It is all useless." Now they should come to first-class understanding in the Vedas.

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Because they were fourth-class, fifth-class men. They will not understand. Therefore it is taken, "dogmas." The modern students, they are advanced in education, and these things are not explained. And besides that, their education is atheistic. Therefore they are trying to reject religion.

Nalinī-kaṇṭha: They say you cannot study Veda because Christ said that there is no other way than himself.

Prabhupāda: Because they are fourth-class, unless he says like that, how they will stick? They were not intelligent men. Just like Lord Buddha also said, "There is no God." "There is no God," but he is God himself.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the followers of Lord Buddha are less intelligent than the followers of...

Prabhupāda: "Less" not. They are atheist class. So they will not understand what is God. So he said, "There is no God. You just hear me and become nonviolent." So his idea was, "Let this rascal first of all become nonviolent. Then they will be pure, and then they will understand."

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Bahulāśva: This is like Christian...?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: They believe that there is God.

Prabhupāda: If you believe there is God, that is sufficient. That is sufficient. But now they, being advanced in education, they want to know how God is there. There is no explanation. Therefore they reject it.

Jayādvaita: They try to explain scientifically what's in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: That science is rascaldom. So how they will be able? Because the whole thing is rascaldom, how they will explain God? Those who are actually advanced scientists, they have accepted. "There must be God," they say.

Jayadwaita: But otherwise the rascals, they try and explain scientifically. They come to the conclusion...

Prabhupāda: Yes, what is their science? Whole science is rascaldom. Just like they have never seen what is there in the planet, and they are concluding, "There is no life." You see? So they are all rascals. Maybe one or two like that gentleman who says that "No, there is God. There is grace."

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Paramahaṁsa: Isn't it is also like a child?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everyone is child. So the father says, "Do this. That's all." Like "Write 'A.' " He does not know what is A. But the father says, "You write like this." That will increase his education.

Paramahaṁsa: But doesn't it come first because of trust?

Prabhupāda: Yes, trust. Without trust, without faith, you cannot advance even an inch. So therefore it is required.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda, what are the symptoms of purity?

Prabhupāda: Just like I do not know where this pathway goes. But you show me, "This way." So without faith, how can I go? If I have no faith, then I cannot move even an inch. I believe, "Yes, he is all right. Let me go." This is faith. I do not know whether it is going, which way it is going. So without faith, you cannot move an inch. So faith must be there, either it is true or blind.

Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Little faith... Therefore you associate. Just like we are inviting this morning lecture. Coming, coming, coming, coming-faith will come.

Yadubara: They will not come.

Prabhupāda: They will not come. Then he is condemned. Let them remain animals. If you don't go to school, there is no question of education. Where is the question of education? One must go to the school with faith that "I will be educated." That is required.

Yadubara: But if they take some prasādam, that will help them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your mercy, that you are... He is faithless rascal. "All right, you take prasādam. That will help you." Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: You may be pleased to know that Karttikeya... He said he's looking forward to going to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise why he is coming again? (chuckles) There must be some faith.

Morning Walk -- July 25, 1975, Los Angeles:

Yadubara: So there is no meaning to their theory then.

Prabhupāda: Because in beginning is mistaken. (break) ...your education from wrong platform, then whole thing is wrong. (break)...study means that "I am this dress," then do you study me properly? So that is their intelligence. They are studying, Darwin studying, this body and no knowledge of the proprietor of the body. (break)

Rādhā-vallabha: They argue that this Vedic philosophy is coming from India, and in India there is so much disease and so many problems, but here, where we have our science, there is no disease.

Prabhupāda: Because they are now fond of you. The Indians have become infected by you; therefore they are diseased. You are all diseased, and now you infected them, they have also become diseased.

Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach:

Prabhupāda: God consciousness does not depend on distribution of food. It requires cultural education. It does not mean that one who has got enough food, he is God conscious. The food distribution is not one of the conditions for becoming God conscious. That is wrong project. "If people are given sufficient food, they will become God conscious"—that is not the fact. But people advance this theory, that "We are now economically distressed. We cannot turn our attention to God consciousness." That is a wrong plea. God consciousness does not depend on any material condition.

Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach:

Prabhupāda: Why there should be different...? President is one, and everyone knows he is one. Why there be lots... That means they do not know. If there is... Just like now Mr. Ford is president. So nobody can say, "Now Mr. John is president." Mr. Ford is president. You cannot say, "Mr. John is president," "Mr. such and such is president," "I suggest," "I..." "It may be like that." Why may be? Actually Mr. Ford is president. And one who says, "May be like this," he does not know who is the president. As soon as he says, "God may be like this," that means he does not know what is God. So there cannot be different description of God. God is one. One must know who is that God. That is education. Now, we are teaching that, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Now it is up to you to test whether Kṛṣṇa is God or not God. But if you know what is God, then you have to accept Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversations -- July 26, 1975, Laguna Beach:

Prabhupāda: And who is going to decrease the population of the mosquito? It is increasing. This means real business they are forgetting.

Devotee (4): So in every school they have so many organizations. Is this a good idea, that we can have debating programs like this along with selling books.

Prabhupāda: Yes, let them study another line of education. Just like there is religious section. It has nothing to do with the engineering, but there is section. Similarly, in religious section or in another section these things should you study, Bhāgavata. That is good. Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, Bhāgavata.

Jayatīrtha: Shall we take your leave now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Rāmeśvara: Jaya, thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: This is our product, to produce for the animal, (indistinct). So the animal eats it and he gives you milk. He's not eating (indistinct). He gives you the nicest food, full of vitamins. And you can prepare from milk hundreds and thousands of so many palatable things. That is civilization. And this is not civilization: "Because cow is so potential, so let me eat the cow." "Guru is so sattvic, spiritual; let me eat guru. Then I will be..." (laughter) This is philosophy. Cow is so full of vitamin, valuable. But civilization is that "Why should you eat the animal? Take the milk." What is this milk? Milk is nothing but the blood. So civilization means let the cow live, and you take the milk, which is nothing but blood. When the mother feeds the child with milk, wherefrom the milk comes? Milk comes from the blood of the mother. Therefore the mother is supplied nutritious food so that she can produce milk for the child. Similarly, cow is mother. What is this philosophy, "Kill the mothers and eat?" "Kill the child and eat?" What is this nonsense? Such crude things are going on in the name of civilization. You are manufacturing billion motor cars, and you cannot manufacture your food? God has given you so much land. This is not civilization. Civilization is how to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is civilization. One should be intelligent enough. Education must be directed in that way. But they do not know.

Morning Walk -- August 28, 1975, Vrndavana:

Member: Constant thinking of Him, His lotus feet, it is the only way by which we can get the real benefit of getting this human life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And where is that education?

Member: That is real education.

Prabhupāda: That is... But where is that education? There is no such education all over the world.

Member: Only great gurus like you can enlighten the whole world. Only very rarely such people come only for the benefit of the people...

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but those who are leaders, those who are leading the people, they are not interested. They are misleading.

Morning Walk -- August 29, 1975, Vrndavana:

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Tell him that we had heard he had come and you are free now so he can... Tell him what time.

Prabhupāda: Hm? He went there?

Akṣayānanda: Yes, yesterday. No. Saccidānanda went. (break) ...did not know whether he could come or not. (break)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: ...celebration there. The education minister is also coming. He is going to be the chief guest. So we are going to have this time two big ministers coming to our Janmāṣṭamī paṇḍal.

Dhanañjaya: Should we hold an abhiṣekha ceremony for Janmāṣṭamī?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You know what is abhiṣeka ceremony?

Dhanañjaya: Bathing ceremony.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- September 1, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: As if Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him to give this institution to Vṛndāvana. Such a foolish person.

Brahmānanda: Yet he also admits that any boys who have intelligence, who are good students, they will go to Mathurā and Agra and other places for education. Here only the village boys come.

Prabhupāda: (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Brahmānanda: Therefore he has very few students. He has very few students.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Brahmānanda: Now he is wearing kuntī beads.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Because he was criticized by our students in U.S.A. (sound of bell) See? The bell is ringing nice. There was no such ringing in this quarter. (break) ...fixed up so that thieves may not take it away? Not so securely.

Morning Walk -- September 4, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That is bodily. (chuckles) That is another foolishness. Just like we have dress. So this dress of sannyāsī is not all. I must be real sannyāsī in knowledge, in education, in behavior, not that... Hitler studies by the dress. That is the foolishness. It is not by the dress, but by the quality. Dress is also required. As I am sannyāsī, I cannot dress otherwise. That is also essential. But if one judges, "Here is a sannyāsī," then he'll misled. That is being done. People are being exploited in the dress of a sannyāsī, although actually he is not sannyāsa. That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. "A sannyāsī or a brāhmaṇa will be accepted by the outward feature." If somebody has got a thread only, two paisa worth, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. And when one takes a daṇḍa, he becomes a sannyāsī. This will be the identification in the Kali-yuga.

Morning Walk -- September 25, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Prabhupāda: Tamarind.

Kartikeya: Tamarind.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...saṁskāra means education. Saṁskāra means education. (break)

Kartikeya: No water.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Kartikeya: Unless the government want, and they know... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...There is scarcity of water in Gujarat.

Kartikeya: Yes. Except Surat. Surat has no problem. Narmad is there.

Prabhupāda: No, here is also the river, Savarmati. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Morning Walk -- September 29, 1975, Ahmedabad:

Indian man (1): What is alternative? What do you do when...

Prabhupāda: No, no, alternative, that alternative will not correct. That is the defect of Gandhi's movement. He is supposed to be reading Bhagavad-gītā, but he has never said, recommended, Kṛṣṇa worship. That is the defect of his education. Rather, he denied the existence of Kṛṣṇa. "I don't believe if any person as Kṛṣṇa ever lived." This is his concept. Gandhi has written in his life that while his father was dying he was enjoying sex with his wife. You know that?

Indian man (2): Gandhiji?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he has written it.

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: This may not be the right way.

Dr. Patel: May not be or wrong way, we do not know. But then he did. According to him, he brought and he tried, and he struggled...

Prabhupāda: No, no, we simply study that the Bhagavad-gītā begins with this education, that "You are not this body." Yes. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, dehi. It has nothing to do with this kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. This is to be understood. The whole world requires to understand this verse; otherwise they remain go-khara.

Dr. Patel: That is right, sir. That has been explained from time immemorial, but the world does not understand.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why not? These people are understanding. These all Kṛṣṇa conscious students, they are understanding.

Morning Walk -- September 30, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, there was no preaching. That's it. Now the preaching is going on. They are understanding. Nobody preached this. If you... Just like a big building. If the foundation is wrong, then it will not stay.

Dr. Patel: This Bhagavad-gītā has got everything, all aspects of life.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the beginning of teaching, that "You are not this body." If you remain in the false understanding that "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," there is no spiritual education. Mohita. That is called mohita. Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair, mohitaṁ nābhijānāti. He remains in ignorance.

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: (break) ...create another danger. Just like airplane. It is comfortable. You can quickly go from one place to another. But as soon as on the plane, immediately your life is at risk. There is no certainty. So this is the way of material world. You create some comfort and you create some greater danger also. Side by side. It cannot be unhampered comfort. That is not possible. You create a motorcar—the same thing—you drive very speedy and you meet accident. Railway, the accident. There was no need. You produce your food locally and produce your milk. Then eat, drink, and live comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Make your life successful. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). And if you have got education, then describe the glories of the Lord by your scientific and educational qualification. (break) The rain is coming. We can go this way. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22).

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Brahmānanda: Why are we evil?

Prabhupāda: No, God says that "You become devotee of Me." You do not become. That is your fault. Therefore you must... Just like government does not say that you become criminal. Government says, "You become educated. You become high-court judge, become big officer." Why you become criminal, pickpocket? Does government give any education for becoming pickpocket? Hm? Is there any institution how to steal, how to become pickpocket? (laughter) Then why do you become? Just see. (break) ...eatables you can collect, and I shall show you how to cook in the cooker. One boy. You also see, because nobody will go there.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Harikeśa is getting his visa today.

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: So we can return. (break) Whole educational system is defective because there is no spiritual education. That has made everything impossible.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One young boy in Johannesburg wanted to join us. He is sixteen years old. So his headmaster said, "What you will do without an education?" They think that this is the greatest ignorance. These are the leaders of education, the headmaster. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...spiritual education, he remains an animal. That's all. (break) That is Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā. To find out the ultimate goal, that is education. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), "Wherefrom everything is coming," that is education.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they may say, "That is not practical, because we will starve to death with such knowledge."

Prabhupāda: Then... Then you are useless. Because you cannot go to the ultimate point of education, therefore your education is useless.

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: To cleanse the heart, beginning of cleanse the heart, that everyone is cats and dogs and so-called human beings... They are under the bodily concept of life. It has to be cleansed, that "You are not this body." If he understands that, then he will understand other things. This is the beginning of knowledge. But where is that knowledge? No school, no college, teaches this thing. So they remain in ignorance. What is this education if he remains in ignorance? (break) ...kinds of advertisement.

Press Conference -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are trying to eradicate this conception of life, bodily conception of life. The animals... An animal, he is also thinking, "I am dog," "I am cat," "I am cow," "I am ass," on account of this bodily concept of life. And if we human beings, we also remain in that bodily concept of life, then we are no better than the animals. So if we remain animals, there cannot be any peace. You bring a dozens of dogs, and if you keep them, they cannot be improved. They will remain as animal. They have no capacity. And if you ask them to live peacefully, it is not possible, because they are animals. Similarly, if we human beings, although we are not animals, but we are not being educated as human being, and therefore we remain as animal, so how there can be any peace? The animal eats; we eat. The animal sleeps; we sleep. The animals have sex life; we have got sex life. The animal defends; we also defend. So if we remain engaged only on the principles of four demands of body, then we remain animal. Our extra education requires that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And there is necessity of the soul. If we don't come to this platform, then we remain animals. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are trying to bring human being to the platform of spiritual consciousness or real human being.

Press Conference -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Guest (2) (Indian man): What was the necessity of creating this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement?

Prabhupāda: Necessity is that the human form of life is meant for advanced education. Unfortunately, they are being educated to live like animals. That is the mistake. So we want to correct this mistake.

Guest (2): But the spiritual organizations in India, all the spiritual teachings in India, have always put great emphasis on the fact that we are spiritual beings. So what was the necessity of creating another movement to say the same things?

Prabhupāda: No. We are... You have brought in the question of India. We are talking of the human society, so why you are bringing India? We are not talking about India only. Human being does not mean only Indian. You see, human being—all, outside India, inside India, everywhere. Wherever there is human being, they require this education. And it is the India's duty. Because India has got the opportunity to be spiritually advanced by the grace of learned, saintly persons, so they should first of all make their life perfect by taking education and distribute the knowledge throughout the whole world. That is India's mission.

Press Conference -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: This is the best social work. We are making animal into man. Already I have begun this, that because they are not educated how to become human being, so they remain animals. So this is the best social work, that we are bringing animals, two-legged animals, to real human being. If a human being is not properly educated, he remains an animal. So this is the proper education. Therefore we are bringing animals to human being.

Guest (3): Has your movement arranged once any particular event which is a movement in a particular country?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. When we are many in number, then we shall take politics also. Yes. First of all let there be perfect men. If there is no perfect men, the government will be imperfect. If there is perfect men, the government will be perfect.

Press Conference -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: That is the chance of a human being. Therefore in the human society there is school, college, education, culture, not in the animal society, because they can be made into perfect, not the animals. So if they are denied proper education, that is the greatest harm. They got the opportunity, and the authorities are not giving them their opportunity.

Guest (4): No, but do you mean the perfectness is to become God or to become the man? Then I want...

Prabhupāda: You never become God.

Guest (4): What does perfectness mean?

Prabhupāda: Perfect means to become godly.

Morning Walk -- October 3, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: There is māyā.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like air that we breathe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is māyā, no education. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are giving intelligence; therefore they are understanding. But there is no such propaganda. There was no such propaganda.

Brahmānanda: One of those reporters yesterday was saying "Well, there's so many philosophies from India. Why have you started this one?" But actually no other philosophy has given this message.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that "Why you are bringing India? The whole world is in darkness." (to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Good morning.

Morning Walk -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, if every moment we are killing in breathing and walking and doing so many things, and then it says, "Thou shalt not kill," so then hasn't God given us an instruction which is impossible?

Prabhupāda: No. Conscientiously you should not. But unconsciously, if you do, that is excused. (break) ...na punar baddhyate(?). Āhlādinī-śakti, it is pleasure potency. So pleasure potency is not painful to Kṛṣṇa. But it is painful. It is painful to us, conditioned souls. This Golden Moon (name of a bar?), everyone comes there for pleasure, but he is becoming implicated in sinful activities. Therefore it is not pleasure. It will give him pain, so many aftereffects. Sex life, even it is not illicit, still, it is painful, aftereffects. You'll have to take care of the children. You have to bear children. That is painful. You have to pay to the hospital for delivery, then education, then doctor's bill—so many painful. So this pleasure, sex pleasure, is followed by so many painful things. Tāpa-karī. The same pleasure potency is there in the living being in little quantity, and as soon as they utilize it, it becomes painful. And the same pleasure potency in the spiritual world, Kṛṣṇa's dancing with gopīs, that is not painful. That is pleasing. (break) ...man, if he takes nice foodstuff it is painful. If a diseased man, if he takes...

Cyavana: He becomes more sick.

Room Conversation -- October 4, 1975, Mauritius:

Cyavana: We can see in some of our boys in Kenya. Practically they have no education and very little intelligence, but still, they are doing everything. They're falling down. They are offering all the prayers. They are taking prasādam. They are chanting. They are doing everything, even they don't have the intelligence to understand why.

Prabhupāda: You said that no chemical is missing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No chemical difference.

Prabhupāda: But why it is dead?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The body is dead? Well, they haven't been able to determine that yet.

Prabhupāda: Then they are rascals. There is no argument because you do not know.

Room Conversation -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Guest (1): Yes. I have contacted two president of village. For example, Iskadye(?) There is a village known as Iskadye. Now there is Marshali.(?)

Prabhupāda: And we have no distinction that "He is Hindu. He is Muslim. He is Christian." No. Everyone is welcome to take this culture, education. We have no such sectarian view. No.

Devotee: Excuse me. Your idea is a program similar to what we've done or been doing previously?

Guest (1): No, Swamijī. Previously you have been only going one day in a village. Only one day means two hours or like this. People are influenced...

Prabhupāda: Once or continual. Yes. That is required.

Guest (1): Yes. A continual program.

Prabhupāda: "Knock, knock, knock, and the door will open." That philosophy.

Morning Walk -- October 6, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like yesterday. That's nice. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). (break) ...things without Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dead body. Aprāṇasya hi dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam. It may be captivating to the foolish men, but it has no value. Because the person who is engaged in these things, he does not know what is the value of life, what is the goal of life. He is wasting time. The house will remain as it is; he will go to hell. That he does not know.

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīsa...

(SB 7.5.31)

The nature's law is different. That is acting in a different way, which you do not know. He is forcing you to become old. He is forcing you to die. Still, you do not know how much you are under the grip of the laws of nature. Such a foolish man, and you are engaged in building skyscraper. Just see. He does not take care that "I am being forced to become something against my will, and I am freely doing all this nonsense." Just like the dog. Dog is thinking, "I am free," running here and there. As soon as the master, "Come on." (laughter) Just see. Even dog has no sense that "I was jumping like free, but I am not free." That sense he hasn't got. So if a human being has not so such sense, what is the difference between him and the dog? Hm? This is to be considered. But they have no sense, no brain, no education, and they are still going on as civilized. Just see. Mūḍha. Therefore mūḍho ('yaṁ) nābhijānāti (BG 7.25).

Morning Walk -- October 7, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: ...are employed in the factory?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Very menial labor, driving trucks and delivery. Gokulendra, when he went to...

Prabhupāda: They are given equal facility for education?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. When Gokulendra went to England he saw a European man with a pick in his hand, and he couldn't believe it, because in South Africa you never see a European person with a pick opening up the street. Only the Africans do things like that. And they'll have one European man standing there, directing. He'll make so much money. (break)

Prabhupāda: Indians are taken within the group of black? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they have white and nonwhite. So technically speaking, they can classify all of the Indians as nonwhite. But at the same time, there is more division, and they have Indian community, and they have the colored community and the African community.

Prabhupāda: The government officer, responsible post, they are offered to the Indians? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Government?

Prabhupāda: Government responsible post.

Morning Walk -- October 7, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: Medical help is free? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: It is to be paid.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But it is very inexpensive.

Prabhupāda: Education?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that education is free for Africans, is it?

Devotee (1): It's very, very cheap, but not for the colored, of course.(?) There are probably many more African schools than European schools, because there are so many Africans, it's very difficult...

Prabhupāda: On the whole, the white man is governing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, completely.

Prabhupāda: They are keeping, governing. This is Indian house. Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is Indian shopping, all Indian shops here. From here back is all Indian.

Prabhupāda: So the European come here to shop, for shopping?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Room Conversation with the Rector, Professor Olivier and Professors of the University of Durban, Westville -- October 8, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā. So the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā is the teaching of transmigration of the soul. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So that is our first concern, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. This body will not exist, and we have to accept another body. Kṛṣṇa says, dehāntara-prāptiḥ, "another body." Now, there are 8,400,000 different types of body. Which body I am going to accept, there is no education. So I am kept in darkness. So what is the value of my education?

Professor: You mean your future?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not know what is my future. Then what is my education?

Professor: Yes. Yes. Of course, that is one standpoint, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: No, that is the main standpoint. I am taking education in the university. I do not know what is my future. Then where is the education? I am in darkness.

Room Conversation with the Rector, Professor Olivier and Professors of the University of Durban, Westville -- October 8, 1975, Durban:

Professor: In any case...

Prabhupāda: No, this is the first proposition, that if you keep people in darkness—he does not know what is his future—then what is the use of education and university?

Indian man (2): So do you mean that the university should be abolished?

Prabhupāda: Not abolished. But education means that you must know what is your position.

Indian man (2): With due respect, I want to know what is the line of demarcation between science and religion.

Prabhupāda: Science means which is applicable to everyone. Religion is described in the dictionary, "a kind of faith." Faith... I may be Hindu today; tomorrow I may be Christian. That is... I can change.

Indian man (2): But this is not the definition of true religion.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I am not talking of religion. I am talking of science. Religion is a kind of faith. You may be believe or you may not believe.

Room Conversation with the Rector, Professor Olivier and Professors of the University of Durban, Westville -- October 8, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my point. That is my point.

Prof. Olivier: This is the point that he's trying to make, that we have not been able to absorb into scientific studies those spiritual components which go up to make the whole of man. And I would agree. I think it's one of the great shortcomings in our modern educational system, that we... Not that we do not accept this. I think basically, as an intrastructure, we accept this. But it's like a house. When you look at all the superstructures you do not inquire too deeply about the foundations of that superstructure.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much. (chuckles)

Prof. Olivier: And now your point is that the time has come for society and the world to find out if there are cracks in the superstructure. Whether these cracks are just superficial cracks or whether they are caused by foundational cracks or shifts in the corners of the foundational structure. And I, like you, I believe that this is not entirely a question of... Well, it's certainly not a question of whether it's Hinduism or Christian or Islam.

Prabhupāda: It is the foundation.

Room Conversation with the Rector, Professor Olivier and Professors of the University of Durban, Westville -- October 8, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: He remains an animal. Just like a dog is thinking, "I am dog." So similarly, if I think, "I am Hindu," then what is the difference? Or if I am thinking, "I am this or that," with the bodily conception of life... Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). If one is thinking in terms of bodily conception—"I am this body"—and based on this foundation, sva-dhī kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ, our family, society, national, so many things we are building up on this bodily conception of life... So,

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

(SB 10.84.13)

Such person is no better than the cow and the asses because he is giving his identification with this body, which he is not. And Vedic realization is ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And the Bhagavad-gītā explains,

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

(BG 18.54)

One, when he is on the platform of Brahman realization, then he becomes jubilant, prasannātmā, na śocati na kāṅkṣati. That life is required, Brahman realization. That is education.

Room Conversation with the Rector, Professor Olivier and Professors of the University of Durban, Westville -- October 8, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: I do not say which religion accepts and which religion does not, but unless one understands that he is not this body—he is different from this body—his education is imperfect.

Indian man (2): But do I mean that up till now your excellency were giving the question of transmigration, field of science, and now you are also taking that subject of God in this sphere of science?

Prabhupāda: It is not God. God is far away. First of all I must know what I am. God is long, long distant.

Indian man (2): But what should be the...

Prabhupāda: First of all you understand what you are, whether you are this body or something other than the body. That is first.

Room Conversation with the Rector, Professor Olivier and Professors of the University of Durban, Westville -- October 8, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: You have seen our books?

Prof. Olivier: I got a copy of the Bhagavad-gītā at the last occassion when your representatives were here, which I thought was a very well brought out and a very well documented edition. The printing is also very good. So we are trying at this university to, slowly, to delve down into the infrastructure of education. Of course, one..., in the Western society one has got to take cognizance of so many developments in the various fields of science. And the element of spiritual science certainly has been neglected. I would concede this point immediately. That is perhaps where this university can also still play a meaningful part. Of course, here we have representatives of three of the world's greatest religions: Islam, Hinduism, and Christianity. This will be part of Professor Oosthuizen's department, to try and take the best out of these and formulate for our students, and maybe for the rest of South Africa and the world that will listen, the essences of religion that would really satisfy as we go along.

Prabhupāda: We say that religion means the law given by God. So any religion must accept God. Then there is no difference. The law may be little different according to time, circumstances. But religion means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the law given by God. Just like law means the codes given by the state. That is law. Just like you are keeping, "Keep to the right" or "left" here. In America it is right. So somewhere, "Keep to the right," or somewhere, "Keep to the left," but because it is given by the state, it is law. Similarly, whatever law is given by God, that is religion. This is our definition of religion.

Room Conversation with the Rector, Professor Olivier and Professors of the University of Durban, Westville -- October 8, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I want. Without science, simply sentiment will not help you.

Prof. Olivier: That's right. Sentimentality...

Prabhupāda: "I believe; you believe..." You may believe something, I may believe something, but everything should be on the scientific basis. That is wanted. So unless we understand this point, that "I am not this body; I am something else than the body," there is no question of spiritual education.

Prof. Olivier: Then it becomes sentimentality.

Prabhupāda: Sentimentality.

Prof. Olivier: Love without honesty, without scientific honesty. Love without scientific honesty is sentimentality. Similarly, honesty without caring and love is cruelty.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Thank you very much. (end)

Room Conversation with Bill Faill (reporter) -- October 8, 1975, Durban:

Faill: It's just another way of looking out.

Prabhupāda: No. That means it is simply talking. It has no realization. Unless you understand that you are not this body—you are spirit soul—there is no question of inward. That we have to study first of all, whether I am this body, or I am something within this body. That is inward. But that they do not understand. There is no education in the school, college or university. Everyone is thinking "I am this body." You see? Just like in this country, everywhere: "We are South African. They are Indian. They are this. They are this. They are this." So whole bodily concept, the whole world... "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am German." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means it starts when one is above the bodily conception of life. Then the starting begins.

Faill: So the recognition of the spark comes first.

Prabhupāda: Ha. Recognition of the spirit soul within this body, that is first education. Unless one understands this simple fact, there is no question of spiritual advancement.

Room Conversation with Professor Olivier -- October 10, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: So in the Bhagavad-gītā, everything is explained very scientifically, not, I mean to say, a sentimental explanation, no. Logically, scientifically.

Prof. Olivier: The problem as I see it, of course, is how to get modern man to make this study in depth that is contained or outlined in this book. Especially when you are caught up in an educational system that denies a place to this very concept or even the philosophy of it, it's...

Prabhupāda: The modern education, they do not accept soul?

Prof. Olivier: Part of it in theory perhaps, and at the junior stage. But as they...as we advance, there is either a complete neutrality or a...just a simple rejection of these truths.

Prabhupāda: They do not accept soul.

Prof. Olivier: They accept the soul, I think so, but they do not care to analyze what it means.

Prabhupāda: Oh. And it is without analyzing this, what is the education? First of all this should be analyzed, what is the distinction between a dead body and a living body. That must be analyzed. Otherwise what is the education? We are dealing with this body. The body is always dead. Just like a motorcar with driver and without driver. The car is always a lump of matter. Similarly, this body, with the soul and without the soul, is a lump of matter.

Room Conversation with Professor Olivier -- October 10, 1975, Durban:

Prof. Olivier: I think about...around fifty-six cents or something. Somebody worked it out the other day.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if one cannot distinguish between the car and the driver of the car, then he remains just like a child. A child may think that the car is running automatically, but that is foolishness. There is a driver. The child may not know, but when the child is grown-up, educated, still he does not know, then what is the meaning of his education?

Prof. Olivier: Now, this is the whole range of education in, well, as far as I am aware, in the whole of the Western world, and it covers primary and secondary and tertiary education. There is no place for an in-depth study of...well, of the soul and of the...

Prabhupāda: I talked with one big professor in Moscow. Perhaps you may know him. His name is Professor Kotovsky. He is the leader of Indology in Moscow. So I had a talk with him for about an hour. That talk was published in some paper. He says, "Swamiji, after this body is annihilated, everything is finished." So I was surprised. And he is holding a very responsible post, Indology, and known to be very good scholar. He was good scholar, but he also does not know.

Room Conversation with Professor Olivier -- October 10, 1975, Durban:

Prof. Olivier: Yes. We want to... I mean, I can do very little at the university. My attempts have been to try and stress that the only...the only permanent element in education is the spiritual, and how to effect this...

Prabhupāda: These are the books. That is a fact. So you saw the Sanskrit professor there?

Devotee: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: What is his name?

Devotee: He's not a professor. He's a lecturer.

Prof. Olivier: Mr. Mishra?

Devotee: (?)

Prof. Olivier: Mishra.

Devotee: Mishra. He's a lecturer. He has this special class.

Prof. Olivier: That's right, yes. He does Sanskrit for us. He's from Mauritius.

Devotee: And he was interested in getting a whole standing order of books. And I said I could supply the books, but it will be a while before we got every single one from America, including the Bengali books, etc. We have to order them specially because South Africa doesn't have a good communication with America as far as transporting large quantities...

Prabhupāda: No, we shall supply from here. You haven't got to bother.

Room Conversation with Professor Olivier -- October 10, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: And they should be helped to...

Prof. Olivier: They should be helped, yes. They should be helped.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the purpose of education.

Prof. Olivier: Apart from anything else, our Indian, our Hindu community here in South Africa seems to be very loose from any fixed idea of what constitutes Hinduism.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Olivier: And especially the young people, they are therefore living in a complete vacuum. For various reasons they do not want to accept...and I come back to the word religion again because this is what they have about, or see around them. They cannot identify themselves with the Christian religion. They cannot identify themselves with the Islamic religion. They are largely ignorant.

Prabhupāda: So they should be shown the right path.

Morning Walk -- October 12, 1975, Durban:

Prabhupāda: So therefore we are doing like that. We are concerned that "I have got this body. Let me enjoy to the fullest extent and don't mind what I am going to have in future. It doesn't matter."

Indian man (3): You get attracted by a lot of side attractions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And the education is so defective that even university students, if I say that "You are going to be a dog," they say, "What is the harm if I become?" They say like that. The education is so defective, they don't mind to become a dog. They think, "It is a facility to become a dog because I can have sex on the street without any restrictions."

Indian man (3): Yes. I mean they have lost their self-respect for that.

Prabhupāda: No consideration. They are actually like cats and dogs. This is going on. (break) Nobody knows what is soul; nobody knows what is the goal of life; nobody knows what is the necessity of the soul. These things are not discussed, neither they know it. So-called religious institution or so-called..., they do not know. It is only mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, and that... They do not take care of this Bhagavad-gītā.

Morning Walk -- Durban, October 13, 1975 :

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the villages?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the proprietor left and the poor cultivators, śūdras, they are accustomed to live in cottages. India's civilization was based on village residence. They would live very peacefully in the villages. In the evening there would be bhagavata-kathā. They will hear. That was Indian culture. They had no artificial way of living, drinking tea, and meat-eating and wine and illicit sex. No. Everyone was religious and satisfied by hearing—what we are just introducing—Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā, Purāṇas, and live simple life, keeping cows, village life as it is exhibited by Kṛṣṇa, Vṛndāvana. Kṛṣṇa, if He liked, He could have lived in the cities. (pause) So the education was meant for teaching people to hate everything Indian.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hate everything Indian.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That was the policy of education. So as soon as one became graduate and educated, he began to hate everything Indian original, and if he would get some clerk's business, service in some office, and his life is successful. That is still going on. So our car is here?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's just up here, Srila Prabhupada.

Morning Walk -- Durban, October 13, 1975 :

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just sitting on the beach.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only sitting, they have no other engagement. They do not know how human life should be utilized. They do not know. They are simply taking consideration of the body, running or skating or this or that, but they have no other engagement. They do not believe that there is soul and that soul's business is first business. They do not know that, neither they do accept it. They are under nature's law, very simply explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, dehino ’smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. By nature's law you have to change your body. It is evident. Still, they will not believe. We’re changing body every moment, and they will say, big, big professors, that after the body is finished, everything is finished. This is ajñāna. And that is going on as education, whole world. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." The whole world is in ignorance, so we are giving them wise instruction. They are thinking, "These people are crazy men." That's all.

Morning Walk -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: There is no need of money. The brāhmaṇa teaches everything free of charge. There is no question of money. Anyone can take education as a brāhmaṇa or a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. There is no... Vaiśya doesn't require any education. Kṣatriyas require little. Brāhmaṇa require. But that is free. Just find out a brāhmaṇa guru and he will give you free education. That's all. This is society. Now, as soon as... At the present moment, as soon as one wants to be educated, he requires money. But in the Vedic society there is no question of money. Education free.

Room Conversation with Reporter of The Star -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: He...? He has not seen his father. That is my reply. Now, the person whom he accepted as his father, he is lying there on the bed. And now he is crying that "My father has gone." That means he has not seen his father. So this is going on. The whole world movement is on the basic principle of that living force which makes the body so important. Either a politician or a philosopher or a scientist, so long the living force is there, the body is important. And as such, the living force is gone, then it is simply a lump of matter. So we are taking care of this lump of matter, not of the living force. This is the mistake of the whole civilization. We do not know what is that living force. There is no scientist, there is no philosopher, nothing of the sort. Simply as child we cry, "Oh, my father has gone away. My father has gone." Why did you not see who is your father or who is your son? Where is that education? Where is that enlightenment? Where is that university? Therefore I say the whole civilization is being misdirected. They do not know what is the important factor in civilization.

Room Conversation with Reporter of The Star -- October 16, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: These things in different way, that "Come to your pure knowledge and make your plan. Then you will be happy. And if your basic principle is wrong, then whatever plan you make, it is useless."

Reporter: Yes. But, you see, the thing that worries me is that how do people begin to understand that their basic principle might be wrong?

Prabhupāda: Just as one goes to a school and gradually he understands what is one, what is two, what is three, what is "two plus two equal to four," how to place. It is a question of learning, education.

Reporter: Yes, but this doesn't effect the ordinary man in the street, Your Grace.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: This doesn't effect the masses.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The mass of people, he says it doesn't effect them.

Prabhupāda: Mass of people will follow. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭha (BG 3.21). Just like everywhere, in politics there is in one leader and people follow him, so we want first-class leader. Then mass will follow. If the leaders are rascals and fools, then what will be result? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). If the leader is blind, how he can help other blind men? He must be open eyes. Then he can lead thousands of blind men—"Come here." And if he is himself blind, then how he can help? That is wanted. One blind man... One open-eyes man is sufficient to lead many thousands of blind men. But if the leaders are also blind, then it is useless. He must be in perfect knowledge. That is wanted. We do not expect that mass of people will understand this philosophy. It is not possible. But at least the leaders, they must know how to lead people—the father, the teachers, the government, like that. Then people will follow.

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: You have no position. You cannot take the Western culture properly, and you have lost your own culture. This is India's bad luck. They never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. They were very much against higher education in the beginning. They wanted some clerks to conduct their activities, mercantile and government, some third-class, fourth-class men. Educated means ABCD, that's all. "They may know ABCD and take fifty, sixty rupees salary, and go home outside the town and come in daily passenger train, and work hard here and simply get your money so that you can maintain yourself." Nothing more. No education, no money, no industry. They were not taught properly. Here I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But Indian factories, go—it is hell. Hell, simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the capitalist class of India, they have learned how to exploit only.

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Because animal civilization, they cannot do it. Kaṇḍutive manivasi viṣaheta dhīraḥ. Why don't you teach them to become dhīraḥ, sober—"Let me tolerate this itching sensation"—brahmacārī? That teaching is not good. You do it repeatedly, suffer, and suffer consequences. And to stop it they suffer in so many ways, suffering, suffering. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Sex life, illicit or legal, the after-effect is suffering. Even it is not illicit—it is legal—then to take care of the wife or the children, for their education, for their upliftment and so on, so on, so on—suffering. And if it is illicit, then these sufferings: you commit sinful activities, kill the child, contraceptive, with the abortion, go to the doctor, pay, and so on, so on. So where is no suffering? Either legal or illicit, you have to suffer. Bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana bahu-duḥkha bhajaḥ. These rascals, once they have done, "That's all right. You have got one child. Just take of." "No, again, again." Once you have committed sinful activities, killing the child in the womb, "All right, stop it now." "No, again." Tṛpyanti neha kṛpana. He's never satisfied.

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: A man should be educated to become sober, that "Let me tolerate this itching, that's all. I save so much trouble." This is knowledge. To become rascal and more rascal and more rascal and suffer, is that civilization? Simply to make the people rascal and suffer and commit suicide? Just tell them that he has created this civilization that suffer and become rascal. That's all. Unless you become rascal, how you will suffer? So keep them rascal and suffer. This is nature's arrangement, that "You living entity, you have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. All right, come under my control. Be rascal, remain rascal and suffer." Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā (BG 7.14). Why she is doing that? "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you will go on suffering like this." This is the nature's way. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). But the rascal... Because he is rascal, he does not know that "I am under the full control of prakṛti, material nature, and her business is to keep me rascal and suffer." And they are advanced in education.

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: "It is impossible. It will not be allowed, and they are trying for it. How this body can be maintained? 'Yes, we are trying. Now the disease has been reduced. Now they are living more days.' These are their foolish. They will never say, 'No, it is impossible.' Still, they will support their rascal endeavors." Modern advancement of science, what actually they have done? We are talking on that point. Simply misleading. The Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung one nice... (tape recorded section accidentally plays) "eating meat and drinking wine." (Prabhupāda and devotees laugh at interruption. Harikeśa apologizes) That... He says, jada vidy saba māyāra vaibhava. Jada vidyā means material education, the so-called material science. So jada vidyā. Vidyā means education, so this expansion of knowledge means expansion of the influence of māyā. Jada vidyā saba māyāra vaibhava. And the result is tomāra bhajane bādhā. People will forget God. With the advancement of so-called material science or material knowledge, the result will be that people will forget God. And then next, next is anitya saṁsāre moha janamiya. "This material world, which is temporary, where we cannot stay, we are already captivated, but this advancement of material knowledge will make me more captive, and I shall work just like an ass." That's all. Now, whether he is right or wrong, tell me. His charge is that advancement of material education is advancement of the influence of material energy, and if you say that "What is the wrong there?" the wrong is that we are already rascals, and this education will make me more rascal. Anitya saṁsāre moha janamiya. "I am already captivated in this temporary material world, and these things will make me more advanced to be captivated in this material world." Now this is the version of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Now, if you don't like, tell what is the reason. Tell me. Material education... We are already captive under the laws of material nature, and the more we advance in material education, we'll be more and more rigidly captive. So this is the version of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. What is your answer? Can anyone refute Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, that he is wrong?

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: People may argue though that without education we can't even read the knowledge that Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is speaking. How to read Bengali or Sanskrit or English or anything like this?

Prabhupāda: That is real education. We want that you learn from Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, you learn from Vyāsadeva, you learn from Nārada. But why you are learning from Freud, from Darwin and such rascals? Education means you should learn from a person who is authorized, who is without mistake, without illusion, who does not cheat, just like we are learning from Kṛṣṇa. That is education. And if you learn from rascals and fools, then what is that education? Education means to learn from the learned person. But if you are learning from a rascal and fool, then what is your education? Education required, but we require what is actually education, which is not cheating. But we are being educated, being cheated. We are working for this body, which I am not. Is that education or it is cheating? If you say, "I am taking my interest," I'll say "I am taking water; I wash daily my shirt and coat." And that, is that knowledge? And what about you? Your food? "I don't care for that. I wash my coat and shirt daily." Is that education? You keep yourself starving and you keep your coat and shirt very cleanse. Is that education? This is going on. Therefore people are restless. He is hungry. What he will do, his cars and this shirt and coat and big building? Why they are committing suicide? Because he is not happy. There is no food for the spirit soul, what he is actually. Is that education? That is not education. So Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura is right when he says, jība ke karaye gādhā: "This material education means making people more and more asses." That's all. He is already ass because he's in this material world, and the so-called material education means keeping him in that condition more and more.

Morning Walk -- October 18, 1975, Johannesburg:

Indian (4): So after, when he leaves this body and when he takes rebirth again, Swamiji, then he starts off all over again?

Prabhupāda: No, he starts... According to the body he will work. If he enters into the dog's body, he will work as a dog. If he enters in the body of a tree, he will work as the tree: stand up naked without any shame; you cannot protest, your branches will be cut off. So these things are there. What do they know about this science? Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You have to take a different body. He does not say what kind of body. And you can see by practical experience. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body. You have to enter one of them. That's all. So what you can do? The nature will force you, "Enter this body." It may be a better body or it may be an abominable body, but you have to enter another body. Where is that education that "I'll have to enter another body after death, and let me prepare what kind of body I shall have"? Where is that education? They are blind.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Busy fool, what is the value? He is fool, and he is busy. So nowadays the education is to make busy fool. That's all.

Indian man (1): About the busy intelligent?

Prabhupāda: The second class.

Indian man (1): How does he behave?

Prabhupāda: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brāhmaṇa, and busy intelligent means kṣatriya. So the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). The society should be divided into four classes. The śūdras, they are busy fools. Therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool.

Morning Walk -- October 21, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: These things are wasted. It can be utilized. The children, they'll gladly collect it. It will be like their sports. All the children will come and collect. Just see. Their energy is utilized, the nature's gift is utilized, and there is no expenditure.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Such a nice arrangment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why they should charge for education? They'll not cut the tree. The dry branches or dead tree, they'll take the wood for utilization.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk down this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) ...parents who would give up their children to gurukula, they would never see them for about ten years?

Prabhupāda: Never see. Ten years? Twenty-five years. They may go and see, give some gifts to the guru.

Morning Walk -- October 25, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: And your big, big cities are full with hippies. You cannot induce them to give up their LSD, and you are making better men. Better men is going to become worse. Just see how cheating.

Harikeśa: Oh, you mean once we make the better men they'll just degrade again.

Prabhupāda: Simply bogus propaganda. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...that their educational system has failed. Therefore they...

Prabhupāda: Yes. They should close the universities and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So by birth they want to make better men. They can't make them by culture.

Prabhupāda: No, culture... They adopt real culture. What do they know about culture? They're killing their own children in the womb, and they're cultured? Worse than the animals. The animals do not do that. These rascals, they are cultured? So wretched and fallen, and they are claiming to be cultured.

Morning Walk -- November 3, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: No, because I don't drink. I don't know. I have not taken tea even in England during my education because I am not to take tea. I am totally teetotaler of the right way. The society is right from the beginning body conscious, more or less, we. We are not taught even during our age of education that we are not this body and something else. This was being done in the ancient times, our forefathers. When the boys were going to the guru, they were first taught this, that "You are not this body; you are something else." And here you are taught you are body so you have to take exercise.

Prabhupāda: That is the first education, first instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, beginning of Bhagavad-gītā-dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Unless one understands that "There is change of body and I am spirit soul within this body," he remains a cat and dog, and that's all. Dehātmā-buddhiḥ. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhātuke sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). So we are keeping this civilization—animals. How there can be peace? You cannot make several dogs, bring them together as nation, and they will live peacefully. It is not possible that "You all dogs come here and feel nationally and be peaceful." Will the dogs will be able to do that? Because you are dog, it is not possible.

Morning Walk -- November 3, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) They fight among themselves for nothing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are keeping them cats and dogs by education, culture, and they want to be happy. How it is possible? First of all let them come to the standard of human being. Then there is question of peace and happiness. They are kept as cats and dogs, and how there can be peace? You cannot make any peace in the dog society. That is not possible. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So that consciousness can come only when one is spiritually educated. If he is simply engaged for satisfying the senses, material, then he remains a cat and dog. You cannot expect any peace.

Dr. Patel: I think the greatest damage done to this civilization of Aryans of India was by MacCauley, who introduced the British system of education.

Prabhupāda: But why you accepted that? (laughter) Why you accepted? Then why don't you accept? You should have refused.

Morning Walk -- November 3, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Yaṁ yaṁ vā... tyajanti deham. That is how, I mean, Bharat got mṛga because he was continuously in his mind was there.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no such education, that there are dehāntara-praptiḥ (BG 2.13) and there are 8,400,000 different forms of deha. Which one he is going to get? Nobody is serious about it. He thinks, "Things will go on like this. I am very free to do anything." That is going on. Mūḍha. Mūḍha, rascal. Duṣkṛtino mūḍha. They will never hear the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. They will do whatever he likes and interpret in a different way. (Hindi) Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāh (BG 7.15). He could take the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā and make his life perfect, but because he is mūḍha and full of sinful activities he will not do that.

Morning Walk -- November 3, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is also external. Real unity is on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (Hindi) The Vedānta begins, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Just inquire about the soul." And where is that education? This human life, they are opening so many colleges, schools, institutions. Where is the instruction about the soul? So go-kharaḥ. (Hindi) In spite of so much improvement, they are behaving just like cats and dogs. In South Africa the Indians are given the far away from the city.

Morning Walk -- November 7, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Stri-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnām (SB 1.4.25). It is meant for less intelligent class of men: stri, woman; śūdra; and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means persons who are born in high family but they have no education. Just like a man born in brāhmaṇa family...

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bandhu.

Prabhupāda: ...but without education, without qualification, he wants to become a brāhmaṇa. They are called brahma-bandhu or dvija-bandhu. So Mahābhārata is meant for the, these persons: stri-śūdra-dvija-bandhunam. They cannot understand directly the Vedic injunctions; therefore it is simplified in a history. Mahābhārata is the history. History and stories, ordinary people, they can read with interest. But those who are advanced, they want higher philosophical thoughts. That is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ vāstava-vastu vedyam atra (SB 1.1.2). Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam idam (SB 1.1.3). It is meant for higher class. So there are different literatures for different persons.

Morning Walk -- November 10, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, in the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, He says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Because everyone is rascal, he is thinking, "I am this body." Arjuna was also thinking, "How shall I kill my other side, my brother, my nephews?" Bodily. Therefore the beginning of spiritual education is to understand that "I am not this body; I am soul." That is the beginning. For so many years people are reading Bhagavad-gītā, but still they are in bodily concept. That is the misfortune.

Dr. Patel: Mahāmāyā duratyayā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (dog barking) No, no, no, don't. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Jaya. (break)... concept of life means animals. So just see. In the whole world is going on, nationalism.

Morning Walk -- November 12, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: What are these? Apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. It has no value. But people are enamored by these things, "I belong to great nation. I am American. We have got so many industries. We have got so many cars." Attachment. So it is very difficult. Sarvo-padhi-vinirmuktam. One, after becoming completely freed from all these false designations, to become a devotee is very, very difficult. There is no education.

Dr. Patel: Sarva-bhavena, from all sides and from all degrees.

Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. So we are dealing with very, very difficult task. It is not very easy, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Naturally we have got attraction for God. That is spiritual kingdom. Just like Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana means center is Kṛṣṇa. The elderly person like Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśoda, their friends, their..., they are also attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The gopīs are attracted to Kṛṣṇa, the cowherds boys, they are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The cows, calves, animals and peacock—everyone is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The water is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. And here in the material world nobody is attracted by Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- November 13, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (break) Svarūpa Dāmodara is real scientist. He is admitting. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. What is that? Yad-uttama-śloka-guṇanuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22).

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam

(SB 1.5.22)

Puṁsa, "of the human society," sviṣṭasya, "education..." Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya, sviṣṭasya, ca buddhi-dattayoḥ. Whatever big, big activities are there—education, charity, tapasya... Why these things are required? What is the meaning of becoming advanced in such things? Avicyuto 'rthaḥ: "Without any doubt, the artha, the conclusion, is that they should describe the wonderful activities of the Supreme Person." Then it is perfect education. And these rascals, they are saying, "Now we don't require God."

Morning Walk -- November 13, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Money, everyone is trying to get money in Bombay. But why there are (unclear)? It is... Unless one is destined to get money, he cannot get. It is not that, so cheap thing, that I want money; money will come. It is janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī (SB 1.8.26). Unless one is pious he cannot get money, he cannot get education.

Dr. Patel: Yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So in that sense of materially, janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī, these four thing...

Dr. Patel: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: So... (break) ...taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the greatest fortune. Thousands of young men joining, but here in India nobody is coming.

Morning Walk -- November 14, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is bogus.

Indian man (5): It is very good.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Formerly these goldsmith boys, their father simply taught how to test gold. And as soon as he learns, he opens a shop and he earns thousands and thousands of rupees. No education. Simply by...

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Even today the jewelers' sons, they are expert in knowing diamonds and they make millions of rupees.

Indian man (6): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: This is Indian old fashion. They simply know how to test jewels and gold. That's all. One knowledge makes him rich.

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So that is the cause of nonretirement.

Dr. Patel: I mean to my mind. It may be another cause also. I don't know. What do you think? Lack of proper education?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Big, big men like Jawaharlal Nehru, Gandhi, they never retired.

Dr. Patel: Gandhi, as a matter of fact, retired long back. I mean the... As far as I know, he was not a member of the Congress.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It was everything.

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Yaśomatīnandana: That's the Second Canto.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The modern education means to create dogs. The dog goes door to door and moves the tail, "Please give me if you have anything." So this educated person with application goes, and they say, "No vacancy. Get out." Therefore they are dogs. Educated means dogs. They are creating dogs. In Vedic culture no brāhmaṇa will accept any job. No kṣatriya will accept any job. No vaiśya will accept any... Only śūdras. Only śūdras.

Dr. Patel: Now they are keeping dogs in their kitchens.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Doggish mentality is there.

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So at night there was work?

Saurabha: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...government is making secular. That means they think that there is no need of this spiritual education.

Dr. Patel: Sir, the secular means, I mean, respect for all the methods of worship.

Prabhupāda: There is no method.

Dr. Patel: But they means secular means no dharma. That is their definition. It is a wrong definition.

Prabhupāda: That is a defect of the government, that they do not know what is spiritual life. They have no knowledge. Mūḍhas. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). They do not know this. They cannot also explain what is the aim of life. That Professor Kotovsky, such a big man, he said, "Swamijī, after death everything is finished."

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The first cultural education is how to teach the small children to become purified, brahmacārī.

Dr. Patel: In ancient times it was done by association in gurukula.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is required, gurukula. We are starting, therefore, gurukulas. And it is becoming...

Dr. Patel: Gurukula. Kula of guru.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmacari gurukule vasan danto guror hitam. This is the beginning. A brahmacārī should live in the aśrama of guru, danta, self-controlled, and only for the benefit of guru, not for anyone's benefit. Brahmacārī guru... They'll go, collect alms, and everything should be delivered to guru.

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: I don't think so.

Dr. Patel: Not this, I mean, the material. But that is the way they do it. That is why their method of education is better than others.

Prabhupāda: They drink.

Dr. Patel: Drinking is different story. I talk of the general mode of education, the way.

Prabhupāda: No. Here are Americans. Is that the education? I don't think so.

Dr. Patel: No, postgraduate education is like that. Not undergraduate. The postgraduate boys are living in close contact with the professors for the research.

Brahmānanda: Only a few schools.

Dr. Patel: Ah, but there are. The research is...

Prabhupāda: No, the professor is also drunkard.

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So you know that story, that one man was drinking, so his friend told him, "You are drinking. You will go to hell." "Oh, my mother drinks." "Oh, she will also go." "My father drinks." "Oh, he will also go." "My brother drinks." "Oh, he will also go." "Then where is hell?" (laughter) "Father, mother, brother, myself, if we live together, then where is hell?" Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: That's a fact. Education by association is the superior method, whatever type of education may be.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Whatever type of education may be, but that is the real education.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Not whatever. This is the education, that the...

Dr. Patel: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. This is education. There is no question of ABCD. First of all brahmacārī gurukule vasan dantaḥ. He is to be trained how to become sober and gentle.

Dr. Patel: Self-controlled.

Prabhupāda: That is required. That is education. This is not education. They are killing the teachers. They are killing teachers. You do not know?

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Police, under police they are. I saw in Delhi. One school I went, and the police is there, examination room, but all thieves, rascals. And they are sitting in examination for passing, all rascals.

Dr. Patel: The modern education has become a farce in that dress.

Prabhupāda: Farce, yes. No education. Amongst the Marwaris, the respectable gentlemen, they don't send. They keep private teachers, paṇḍitas, for learning Sanskrit, English. They know that our, "My boy hasn't got to earn money. He has to sit here. That's all. Why he should be spoiled?" They know very well, "We can purchase these technologists."

Indian man (3): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Everything farce. There is no education.

Morning Walk -- November 17, 1975, Bombay:

Brahmānanda: They had a gurukula here at Hare Kṛṣṇa Land. Isn't it? And many of the children of the tenants were coming, and they were wearing tilaka. And then they would go home and tell their parents not to eat meat and so on, and the parents became very angry and took their children back. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...Hiraṇyakaśipu education, then it is filled up immediately. And if you introduce Prahlāda education-vacant. (break) Hm? (laughs) (break) ...meet me at night, all you. (break) Who are living?

Girirāja: Our men? One room is for the school, and Yaśomat...

Indian man (4): School, gurukula school.

Girirāja: The children. Then Yaśomatīnandana's wife was staying there, and Bilvamaṅgala and his wife used to stay there.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Girirāja: One Bilvamaṅgala and his wife used to stay there. So they've left. And Nayanābhirāma and his wife used to stay there and they have left. So actually it could be emptied.

Prabhupāda: But I saw yesterday someone living there.

Room Conversation -- November 25, 1975, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: So in every center they must rise early in the morning. They must follow the regulative principles. They must attend class. Otherwise let them go out. We don't want. And if anyone wants to marry, first of all he must show that he has some earning capacity. Not that "Because there are so many girls, and I marry one to satisfy my senses..." I thought that boy was nice, and I heard all these stories. That is also another defect, that we have got young boys and young girls open for lovemaking. And brahmacārī means strictly prohibited to see the face of woman. But we cannot stop it. That is also another defect. Fire is good and butter is good, but when they come together everything become bad. Is it not? Fire is good, just like heat. And butter is good, healthy. But when they come together the butter melts and the fire extinguished. This is māyā's arrangement. Puṁsa striyā mithunī-bhāvam etam. This whole world is going on by the sex attraction, and when they come together both of them become spoiled. Therefore it has to be dealt with very, very carefully, so many rules, regulation. (break) ...used, Nitāi?

Nitāi: Whenever there is necessity.

Prabhupāda: Compulsory.

Nitāi: Compulsory. When there's rule, vidhi.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, vrajet, "must." Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta (SB 11.3.21). At least let us inform the whole world that the process of civilization, education, everything rotten. That we have to say. (end)

Morning Walk -- November 26, 1975, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: So near. You can come. (break) It is published, that the wood... Now it is no green leaves. Why? What is missing? If they are so expert, inject something and it will have green leaves like that. (break) ...I mean to say, trucks they are rejected in your country. We do not see such buses. What is this house?

Harikeśa: It's a college. It's a girls' college.

Prabhupāda: (break) How to kill child. This is education. Huh? Educated girl means how to divorce husband, how to kill child. Is it not? Educated, modern educated girl means how to become unfaithful to the husband, how to divorce and how to kill child.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: How to get equal rights.

Prabhupāda: No, equal rights, that's all right. This is the education. The uneducated girls do not do this. (break)

Harikeśa: This is very funny.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Harikeśa: It says, "Invincible are the Korean people who are rallied firmly with one ideology and will under the brilliant rays of the immortal juch (?) idea of Comrade..."

Prabhupāda: All ideals.

Morning Walk -- December 10, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Women senators, women are in charge of companies sometimes.

Indian man: No, in India there are two women. They are high commissioners of India to the foreign countries.

Prabhupāda: No, that is possible. That it requires education. That is another... By nature the woman's body is different from man's.

Indian man: Women are subordinate.

Prabhupāda: Not subordinate actually. The occupations are different. It does not mean... That is another mistake. Just like the leg is walking, and the head is directing, so although the occupation is different, both of them are important. We require the head and leg also. If simply head is there, if there is no leg, then who'll walk? This is the understanding, not equal. Everyone must have his separate duties to serve the whole. That is the arrangement. This is real understanding. The most important part of the body is head, but that does not mean the leg is not important. Leg is important in its work, and head is important in its work. So we require both, head and tail both, not that simply leg or simply head. But when we make comparative study, we can understand that head is more important than the leg. If you cut your leg, you can live, but if you cut your head, you'll die.

Morning Walk -- December 14, 1975, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: When... Happiness there is, not for the rascals, but for the intelligent. Happiness there is. Unless there is happiness, how we are seeking for happiness? Unless there is immortality, how we are seeking for immortality? There is. But the way in which you are seeking for these things, that is wrong. That is the whole education. Māyā muni sthitaḥ. Just like a foolish animal, he is seeking water from the desert because it appears there is water. But that is his foolishness. A human being he knows that there is no water, it is all sand. That is the difference between animal and human being. Therefore if the dog sees another, what is called? He makes a dog in the water, and he thinks another dog carrying a bread and he wants to take it away, so his bread goes away

Harikeśa: That's a perfect example.

Prabhupāda: He loses his own bread and there is no other bread. That's all. (Sanskrit) The lion he thought there is another lion within the well, and jumped over it. He lost his life, that's all. This going on. So, he's so strong, lion, it is fabulously strong, but he's animal. In spite of so much strength, he's an animal. Similarly this modern civilization, in spite of so much so-called advancement, they are simply animals. That's all. A big animal is eulogized by another small animal, that's all. Animal is animal, big animal or small. (pointing out on the road) Just see he hasn't got master, and what is his condition?

Room Conversation -- December 14, 1975, New Delhi:

Hari-śauri: Pup.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They follow, some gentleman. And because at that time it is good living, somebody takes charge, "Alright let me take this pup." And the children also like, so he gets some shelter. So similarly, according to different body the activities begins. Therefore body is the field of activities. A snake, because he has got the field of activity of a snake's body, from the very beginning he is very, very envious. The same, trying to bite others. In this way our activities begin according to the body. And this change of bodies take place in the lower animal life automatically, by nature's law. Prakṛte kriyamānāni guṇai karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. But when comes to the form of a human being, on account of developed consciousness, he has got responsibility. He has to make his choice. He is suffering in this material world changing different types of bodies, one after another, and the propensity to lord it over the material world is going on. Now he has to change the consciousness, whether he wants to continue this propensity for lording over the material world, or he wants to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This choice has to be made by the human being. If he makes his choice after getting good education from the right source, that "I am going on in the wrong way, by the desire to lord it over the material nature but I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa therefore I must surrender now.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...one is animal. So animal means ferocious. Dharmeṇa yena pasave samānaḥ. They're as good as animal. You cannot expect any good behavior from animals. This is going on. They want to keep the whole population animal, and they're making big, big plans-United Nations, this, that.

Dr. Patel: This is a problem. It's committed from the poor nations of the world, this United Nations.

Prabhupāda: There is no education for making people a human being.

Dr. Patel: Karl Marx, Hagel and Engels and those people have got this nonsensical idea that interaction of matter itself produces what we call consciousness. It is not the consciousness which I mean agrees with the matter. The very first basis on which this rascaldom is, I mean the basis is this: revolting against the tenets of Hindu teaching. No?

Prabhupāda: Hindu-Muslim teaching...

Dr. Patel: No, I mean sanātana dharma of this country.

Prabhupāda: Sanātana dharma, there is no teaching; it is already there.

Dr. Patel: Yes, that's it.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is going on. That is going...

Dr. Patel: This war, last, second war was so horrible, and the third will perhaps be finishing the whole cosmos.

Prabhupāda: That war is always there. But still they remain two-legged animals. It requires education.

Dr. Patel: But sir, I often wonder that Jesus Christ was so wonderful, I mean brotherhood and all these things, and these, practically people following his creed are warring like this.

Prabhupāda: No, who is following our Gītā?

Dr. Patel: Hm hm, I mean practically why...

Prabhupāda: Why do you blame them? We are also doing. Nobody is following. That is animalism. They have got direction, but they won't follow. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya! Jaya! Mr. Sar, why don't you come and see how things are going on. You are expert in...

Mr. Sar: Nicely sir. I see it every day. Very good concrete building.

Prabhupāda: So if there is any defect.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (break) ...is the form where the animal can take education and become a human being.

Dr. Patel: Now these human beings they get educated from animals.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is not education. This jara avidya, material education, is no education. It doesn't require any education. This education for eating, sleeping, education, that is not education, that is cats and dogs they also know how to do it without education. Real education is brahma-vidyā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā—this is education. So that is now given up throughout the whole world. Nobody is interested in Brahman; they are simply interested in sense gratification.

Dr. Patel: Because I think, sir, the method of education the world over is absolutely different...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not education. The education for eating, sleeping, that is not education.

Dr. Patel: The way we were educating, our forefathers are educating their children, by this method of sending them to a guru in an āśrama...

Prabhupāda: That is real education.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: And then they are prepared right from the brahmacārī āśrama for the highest goal, till they become a sannyāsī. Here he, he's neither this nor there.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no education. Real education is not there. Just like Cānakya Paṇḍita, he was not a spiritual man, but he was a prime minister. Still, he gave the standard of becoming educated. He said,

mātṛvat para-dāreṣu

para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat

ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu

yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ

Here is paṇḍita. What is he? Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: he sees every woman as mother, except his own wife. And para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: and other's property, possessions, just like garbage. And atmavat-sarva bhūteṣu: and feeling for everyone as he himself is feeling the pains and pleasures. If one has attained this stage, then he is considered educated. He never says these degrees.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is upādhi. Education is to become upādhi-less. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). But they are increasing upādhi.

Dr. Patel: People think so far as they are concerned that education means giving the knowledge of how to read and write. I think it is the knowledge and not the education. The education is something different, that trains up your mind how to think, how to, I mean, separate grain from the chaff.

Prabhupāda: Education means ethical. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is education.

Dr. Patel: No, but I mean to say, you must know how to separate the grain from the chaff.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā begins education, instruction. Immediately He puts forward that you are not this body. That is the beginning of education. Where is such education? Everyone is thinking, "You are this body." "You are Indian, you are American, you are Hindu, you are Muslim." What is education? Bhagavad-gītā says you are not this body. That is the beginning of education. And now education means be nationalist. Drive away and bark...

Dr. Patel: (something about passport in Hindi)

Prabhupāda: No, why passport? Even in our country, Mahātmā Gandhi was also infected: "Quit India." "Quit India."

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That's not.... As soon as you think "He is my enemy and he is my friend," then there is no education. That's all. This is standard of education. Ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. That is education. Sama darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva (BG 5.18). That is education. That is.... Kṛṣṇa says, nanu śocanti paṇḍitāḥ. Nanu śocanti paṇḍitāḥ. "Ah, you are rascal." It is not the business of the paṇḍita to think like that. He never thought that the Kauravas were the enemy. No. That is not the fact. It is duty to fight the just cause. That was His instruction.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And bhakta... Caitanya Mahāprabhu is teaching tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. There is no education; therefore Kṛṣṇa has spoken of these people as mūḍha. "No, they are educated. They have passed so many examination"—māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This kind of education has no value because they are forgetting the real point of education. māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ (BG 7.15).

Dr. Patel: So what is āsurī, would be...

Prabhupāda: Āsurī means godlessness. "There is no God; I am God."

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: The interest of the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not in his interest because it is changing. Suppose a person comes to a foreign place, and he becomes only interested in where he is staying, and after a week he is driven away. Then what is interest? You are eternal; you must have eternal interest.

Dr. Patel: That education comes from the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we say that there is no education. They do not know what is interest. They are making a small limitation, that "This is my country. My interest is to become a national. I will sacrifice my life for this, that, this..." Whole world is going on like this. Na te vidhuḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum.

Dr. Patel: And, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is brahmacārī. Where is that education?

Dr. Patel: This education are given to the Vaiṣṇavas in their homes. They are Vaiṣṇavas. But then so-called Vaiṣṇavas, many of them they are ruthless. Ruthless, absolutely ruthless...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct), kṣatriyas, there is no (indistinct) kṣatriya...

Dr. Patel: No, what I mean to say...

Prabhupāda: ...everyone is śūdra.

Dr. Patel: No, no, really sir, but they are in b

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) If you want to be learned, then you have to read Bhāgavatam. Vidvāṁś cakre satvata. Vidvāṁ means Vyāsadeva. He compiled Bhāgavatam for the education of these rascals. Na te vidhuḥ svārtha-gatim. The same thing. They do not know what is their self-interest. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi visnu. And another place, anartha. This is anartha. Without knowing the real self-interest, they are engaged in so many so-called duties. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān: "Give up all these duties," but they will not do. Therefore Vyāsadeva says, anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād... These unnecessary engagements cannot be given up, anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). To teach them bhakti yoga... And, anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhoksaje lokasyājānato. These rascals, they do not know it. Lokasya ajānata. Ajānato lokasya. They do not know how to get free from this unwanted situation. But to get them free, vidyā... Vyāsadeva is vidvān, vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajanataḥ. Ajanato lokasya, they do not know, Hm? The same thing, a dog, what does he know what is the interest of life? Therefore Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu has advised that because all these rascals are filled up all over the world, "Each one of you become a guru."

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Tyāgāt means one must be disgusted with this material way of life. This is tyāga. But they are being educated to be more attached to this material world.

Dr. Patel: This modern education.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: How to make a successful life. Like...

Prabhupāda: Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). That is bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga also, vidyā. Vyāsadeva also says, anārthopasanaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam. To get rid of this entanglement, unnecessary things, the only means is bhakti.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is the misfortune. And how it started, this ball? Who made the ball rolling? He, he makes the ball. This is modern education.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone is the architect of his own fortune.

Dr. Patel: No, no. I talk of the samaṣṭi sir. He...

Prabhupāda: Samāṣṭi, sama and aṣṭi together makes samaṣṭi. If you become devotee, I become devotee, everyone becomes.... Then samaṣṭi, devotee. And if you are nondevotee, I'm a nondevotee, then.... Combination of nondevotees. That's all. We have to therefore change this group, where we shall live. Satāṁ prasanga mama virya sambhava bhavānti nitkarma. (indistinct) If you live with the devotees, then these topics of transcendental subject matter becomes palatable. Otherwise it is nonpalatable. Therefore they do not like to come to the temple to hear our lecture. Nonpalatable.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: All the work should be done for God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our duty. Just like a servant and master. What is the duty of a servant? Simply you wait for the order of the master. And execute. That's all. Then he's perfect servant. He doesn't require any qualification. Simply if he's ready, the master will order: "I will do." That's all. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityaja mām ekam, "Be ready always, what I say, direct." And Rūpa Goswami says, ānukūlyena-kṛṣṇānu-śilanam (CC Madhya 19.167). Ānukūlyena, favorably. Always wait, as Kṛṣṇa becomes satisfied, for the order. Then you are perfect. Ānukūlyena-kṛṣṇānuśilanam bhaktir uttamam. That is first-class bhakti. It doesn't require any education. Just like Hanumānjī. He was not born in a human society even, but he was always ready to execute the order of Lord Rāmacandra.

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: They will never paint any picture of Kṛṣṇa is killing Pūtāna, Aghasura, Bakasura, Kaṁsa—so many killing process from the very childhood. That picture you won't find. Because he knows he is Aghasura. He'll be killed. (laughing)

Dr. Patel: We see pictures of Giridhārī, like that. Now we see even Giridhārī picture. Sir, it is the education. The disturb the education of this country after Neccola (?). That is the cause of it.

Prabhupāda: Naḥ, Necolla(?) has gone long, long ago. What you are doing now?

Dr. Patel: Necolla(?) have made it sir.

Prabhupāda: You can change it. That Necolla(?) has conquered you.

Dr. Patel: That's right. They did conquer us. These priests even are not tending even the system of education.

Śravaṇānanda: At the Ramakrishna Mission school in Madras near a football field, there is one slogan on the arch that says, "The playing of football will bring one closer to heaven than the study of the Gītā."

Prabhupāda: Just see. Has Neccolla(?) carved this?

Śravaṇānanda: He said, "Tear up all the big tulasīs..."

Dr. Patel: Is it a fact? We don't know.

Prabhupāda: It is a fact if he says.

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa says specifically, kṣatriya, yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam: "You must fight. Face."

Dr. Patel: That yuddhe must be also religious. Not...

Prabhupāda: Yuddha... Everything must be religious. Why yuddha? Your ordinary living must be also religious. Otherwise animal. Animal also lives. But if you don't live religiously, that is animal. Dharmena hena paśave sa. If you live like animal, then you are animal. If you live like human being, that human being means dharma. We cannot expect any dharma in the animal society. It is meant for the humans. (someone gives Prabhupāda something) Hm, thank you. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that a flower without smell and a man without education—the same thing. A flower without smell, similarly, a man without education.

Dr. Patel: Sir, what is the distinction between a culture and an education?

Prabhupāda: Culture means human being.

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Human being. Just like Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. This is culture to see every woman as mother. This is not education. Education, the modern meaning of education is rubbish, to learn ABCD. This is not education. Without culture, what is the meaning of education?

Dr. Patel: So culture is the background for all these things.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Education is required to help culture. Not that you take degrees from the university and remain a dog. That is not education. Here is education, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says:

mātṛvat para-dāreṣu

para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat

ātmāvat sarva-bhūteṣu

yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ

Here is a description of paṇḍita: first of all learn how to see other woman as your mother. There the culture begins. And they are, from the very beginning of the school college life, they are learning how to entice one girl. This is education.

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Sex philosophy. This is their education. So how you can expect gentlemen? It is not possible. From the very beginning there is no culture, animal culture. Just like dogs, as soon as he finds another female dog, he wants to have sex. This is education.

Dr. Patel: One friend of mine he told me that this culture is vultures' culture. They eat anything and everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not vultures. It is called hog civilization. The hog, they eat anything and they have sex with anyone.

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. These animals they don't distinguish between their own bodily relatives.

Prabhupāda: Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭan kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This is instruction. Where is culture? Culture is lost. So therefore there is no value of education. And besides that, education means spiritual education. Brahma-vidyā. This education how to make aeroplane or a nice bridge or a machine, this is called kalā-vidyā. This is not vidyā.

Morning Walk -- December 19, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Para and apara vidyā.

Prabhupāda: No, kalā.... Kalā means artistic. Suppose a carpenter, he knows how to make a very nice, good furniture, does it mean that he is educated? He knows the art, some artistic way, that's all; but he is not educated. But nowadays it is going on that if you know some art, technology, then you are educated. This is not education. Education means culture.

Dr. Patel: Yes. And culture means...

Prabhupāda: Culture means human life. Otherwise dog's life. There is.... Adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam. Everything is described. Amānitvam: first of all you have to learn how to become humble. And here all the people, they are educated how to become proud. What is education?

Dr. Patel: Christ says, sir, the meek and humble shall inherit this earth. They unfortunately, the followers of Christ are not meek and humble.

Prabhupāda: And this culture cannot be maintained unless one is God conscious. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). There cannot be any culture for a godless person. That is not possible. And, yasyāsti-bhaktir bhagavaty-akiñcanā. Just like this European and American boy is offering obeisances to the guru, this is culture. Why he has learned this culture? Because he has become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā, sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. If you make one devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then all culture will automatically come. One thing. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Morning Walk -- December 24, 1975, Bombay:

Lokanātha: For detachment you suggest they remain separate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless they are separated, it is very difficult to advance in spiritual consciousness. That is the whole Vedic system. Gradual. First of all, brahmacārī, he is educated very nicely that this is not good to marry and enter into a family life. And in spite of education, if he is still inclined, then he is allowed to marry. This is a concession. And that is for a few days, few years. Then compulsory separation from the family life. Vanaprāstha. At that time, wife is allowed to stay with the husband, but finally they are separated, sannyāsa. Wife should go home, remain with their children. That's all.