Prabhupāda: The basis of this teaching is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. I have already published my book, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. This book is not new. It is very old book, at least five thousand years old, and it is very widely read all over the world. In your country I have seen there are about more than twenty-five different editions, English. Similarly, there is in German language, in England, in Japan. Everywhere, all over the country this book is very widely known, Bhagavad-gītā. In other words, this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The speaker of this book is Lord Kṛṣṇa, and the subject matter of this book is what is our relationship with God. Then, after understanding what is our relationship with God, we can work accordingly. Just like you are citizen of America, you have got a particular relationship with the state, and you are expected to work according to that relationship, and then you are good citizen, you are law-abiding citizen, and state gives your all protection, and you can improve to the highest perfectional stage. Similarly, if we know our relationship with God, whom we call Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive, and that is the perfect name of God. Unless God is all-attractive, he cannot be God. God cannot be Hindus' God or Christians' God or Jews' God or Mohammedans' God. No. God is for everyone, and He is all-attractive. He is fully opulent. He is fully in knowledge, perfect in knowledge, perfect in beauty, perfect in renunciation, perfect in fame, perfect in strength. In this way He is all attractive. So we must know our relationship with God. That is the first subject matter of this book, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Then if we understand our relationship, we can act accordingly. At the present moment we are, some of us declining God. "There is no God." Some of them have little conception of God, "God is great," but they do not try to understand what is actual relationship with God. They are not very serious. In this way, practically we are avoiding our eternal relationship with God, and therefore we cannot act properly, and that is the cause of all miseries. That is the cause of all problems. Just like if you do not know the state laws, then you do not act properly. You are always criminal. For example, if you do not know how to drive, "keep to the right," if you drive to the left, you may think, "Oh, it is after all driving. What does it matter, right or left?" But no. As soon as you drive left, you become criminal.
Do not know how to (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Expressions researched:
"did not know how to"
|"do not know how to"
|"does not know how to"
|"don't know how to"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So he did not know that his plough (?) and some portion of his thigh was within the hole and when he took out this plug it was, (claps) I mean to say, clipped, and he could not get out and died. So the instruction is that... 'Khila pārthiva vānaraḥ, vyāpare suvyaparam. Avyāpara means a occupation, an occupation which is not fit for you. That is avyāpara. Avyāpara-suvyaparam. And one occupation which is not exactly fitting you, you do not know how to do it, so avyāpare suvyaparam yo kartu... If one wants to act in a business in which he is unable to do, then he is killed just like this fool monkey. Avyāpare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa-mulo hanyate. That foolish person is killed just like this monkey. The monkey's business was not to imitate the sawman, but he wanted to imitate. The result was that he was killed. So that is not expertness. Expertness is you just try to do which is easily performed by you. You don't accept anything heavy task because Kṛṣṇa does not want that you have to do this heavy task. Whatever you know, you just apply it. You dovetail it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa does not say that you have to become like this, like that, like that, then you can serve Him. Does not say. Just like this cow. Just see. What does it know? He's an animal. You see? But the calf knows to brush his head and tongue like this, in love. It is doing and Kṛṣṇa accepting, "Yes." That is expert. First of all find out what is easily done by you. Don't take anything which is not easily done by you. You find out what is your occupation, what you can very nicely and easily perform, and do it for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is that clear? Expert? This is expert. Expert does not mean that I do not know how to drive motor car, and I will have to imitate somebody, "Oh, I shall become driver." Why? If you do not know driving, why should you attempt driving? Whatever you know, you just try it, that business, and try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa.
Reporter: Now can you explain to me, I have some background information about the Kṛṣṇa consciousness society, but I don't know how to explain it in relation to the broad word Hinduism. Now how do you relate the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to Hinduism? How would you describe it, as a part of Hinduism?
Prabhupāda: No. Hinduism practically we do not recognize because this word "Hinduism" is not mentioned in any Vedic literature. It is a foreign term. The Muhammadans, they called the inhabitants of India as "Hindus." From that word, it is has come to "Hinduism." Otherwise, we don't find that word in any Vedic literature. "Hinduism" is a foreign term, it is not a Vedic term.
Reporter: Yes. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness, its Vedic literature, they have some of the same books or also holy books for what we call Hindu religions, aren't they?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just try to understand, the inhabitants of India were called by the Muhammadans from Persia and other places, "Hindus." "Hindus" means the resident on the other side of the River Indus. You have heard the name of River Indus. So they cannot pronounce it Indus, they say "Hindus." From "Hindus," it has become "Hindu." So actually the residents of India were called "Hindus." And generally, at least in, say, three thousand years ago, all the inhabitants of India were strictly followers of Vedic principles. After the advent of Lord Buddha, a different religious system developed. Otherwise, before Lord Buddha, there was all the... Not only in India, in other parts of the world. They were followers of Vedic principles. So in that sense, you can say if followers of Vedic principles are called Hindus, then before Lord Buddha, everyone was Hindu all over the world. Not that particular part of India. So far we have got historical reference from Mahābhārata, Indo-European stock, they are also Hindus, the so-called Hindus, followers of Vedic principles. Yes. Gradually, they deviated. Just like recently there is division of Pakistan and India. Twenty years before, this Pakistan was part of India. Now, these Muhammadans, they did not come from outside. They changed their faith from Hindus to Muhammadans. Now they divided their property. Similarly, actually the whole planet was called Bhārata-varṣa. Gradually, people deviated from Vedic principles or imitated something else and they became different.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Baradraj is good. Yes. He can... If he likes, he can do much work.
Satsvarūpa: And Muralīdhara is good and also produces. Devahūti is good, but doesn't produce.
Prabhupāda: So Devahūti has gone. I would have talked with her.
Brahmānanda: Yes. I don't have her address.
Prabhupāda: Oh, she does not live in the temple.
Brahmānanda: No. And she doesn't come often to the temple. I do not know her address, so I don't know how to... I will call up her daughter in Dematine(?). See if I can get her address and write her.
Kīrtanānanda: What about Mādhava-lati?
Prabhupāda: Yes. She is good painter.
Kīrtanānanda: She's exhibiting a much nicer atti... She had a sari on today, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Kīrtanānanda: She had a sari on today.
Prabhupāda: Sari?
Kīrtanānanda: Yes. She was wearing a sari at the temple. She looks very nice.
Prabhupāda: No, she is nice. She is talented.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen.
Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahmajyoti you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.
Śyāmasundara: So they become separated.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: And Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the spiritual world, everything is composed of cintāmaṇi, just like here everything is composed of atoms. So suppose someone develops a spiritual form in the spiritual sky. That form, I mean, that cintāmaṇi, they are living entities also? Are they conscious entities or is that an expansion of the jīva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy with Kṛṣṇa, is that an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency?
Prabhupāda: That you consider. That we imagine.
Haṁsadūta: That's why I'm asking. Or like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form.
Prabhupāda: In one sense it is right. They are spiritual molecules. Yes. Here also, spiritual molecules, but here it is called material because there is no sense of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purifying everyone. This bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," they are forgetting. Just like in our society there are devotees from many religious sects, many countries, but they are nobody in that concept of life. They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." This is bhakti. This is spiritual platform. So far the material platform is concerned, there is already division. An intelligent class of men, the administrator class. Just like not all everyone is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I will not be interested. We are interested in different thing. So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of men, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up. Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or (indistinct). He has no training how to administer, but simply by vote, he occupies a big post. And that is his qualification. But he does not know how to rule over, how to make the people satisfied. Therefore, chaos. Daily everywhere, government is changing. Daily, weekly, this government, that government, that government. Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore, that is required. Tejaḥ. First these administrators must be tejasī, īśvara bhava(?). (Sanskrit) Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch and the common man will fight. Formerly kṣatriya came first of all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like śūdra. In the Western countries, they are all śūdras. They are getting money and misusing on wine and women. They cannot use money (indistinct), simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, especially kṣatriya, as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu-yajña.
Dr. Singh: Aśvamedhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of Viśvadeva(?), the śūdras should be given money so they can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. Śūdras get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child, you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. (Bengali) The monkey is decorated with pearl necklace. Even Hanumān.
Dr. Singh: (laughs) He did it.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) "Oh, you are so nice. Come on, take it." And there is another proverb in Bengal, (Bengali). (Bengali), the cultivator, what does he know about the taste of liquor? These are very instructive(?).
Śyāmasundara: The cultivator?
Prabhupāda: Cultivator. (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: That is before the days of country liquor.
Prabhupāda: If you give one bottle of John Walker...
Dr. Singh: (laughs) Johnnie.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Johnnie Walker? What is it?
English woman: I'm so surprised you know the name of that liquor.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Very good life.
Bob: Maybe that's just material clinging.
Prabhupāda: So just you follow in their footsteps, my other students, and it will be fulfilled, your desire. We are training to that direction, how to become purified and happy. That is our mission. We want to see everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. But people do not know how to become happy. They do not take the standard path to become happy. They manufacture their own way. That is the difficulty. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam (SB 5.5.1). This advice was given by Ṛṣabhadeva to his sons. "My dear boys, just undergo austerity," divyam, "for transcendental realization." Everyone is going austerity. This boy, I know, he had to go foreign countries to learn this commercial management. So many... So now he's good situated. But everyone has to undergo some austerity for future life. So why not take that austerity for permanent happiness? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena satt... Permanent happiness, you have to purify your existential body. This body, so long you will accept this material body, you'll have to change it. And as soon as you get a spiritual body there is no question of change. Spiritual body you have already. Simply now, due to our material contamination, we are developing material body. But if we associate with spiritual life, then we shall develop spiritual body. The same example I have several times given, that you put the iron rod with fire, it will develop to be fire. Is it not?
Bob: Put the iron rod into fire...
Prabhupāda: Yes, and it will become fire.
Pradyumna: Complaint?
Prabhupāda: Complaints, that is very difficult thing. What is our fault? Please tell me?
Author: Then sir, I want to ask you about, well... It seems this book is impracticable without the kind of material I want. Now, I don't want to adopt an uncompromising position at all, but I am convinced that you misunderstand my motivations. I don't know how to persuade you that my motivations are good ones, and so therefore I am in a corner, in a cul de sac. Now, the material that I must have in this book is sufficient to be able to persuade people that they are reading about something which is true. That means, for example, that I...
Prabhupāda: So, that books we have already published. To convince people that this is nice movement, we have got dozens of books, and they are selling nicely. Practically we are standing by the sales of our books and literature. How to convince people that this is a nice movement—we are ourselves publishing. You cannot publish better book than what we have done. We know the interest.
Author: Sir, I am not seeking to persuade people that it is a nice movement. I am seeking to describe it as it is.
Prabhupāda: No, no, describe, but you cannot describe better than us. Is it not a fact?
Author: Sir, Back to Godhead and the other books are not...
Prabhupāda: Because we know our business, therefore we are describing our facts very nicely. You are outsider.
Author: That's right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you cannot place our, I mean to say, pros and cons so nicely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is under bondage, good or bad.
Guest (2): But is good bondage good?
Prabhupāda: Good bondage, but it is bondage, after all. If you are prisoner, first-class prisoner or third-class prisoner, you are prisoner.
Guest (2): But doesn't bondage give the incentive to live?
Prabhupāda: No, bondage gives bondage. If you do not know how to get out of the bondage, then you will be more and more in bondage.
Guest (2): But if you don't have any bondage, then...
Prabhupāda: No, everyone is in bondage.
Guest (2): No, I mean, suppose idealistically...
Prabhupāda: What idealistic?
Guest (2): Hypothetical case that...
Prabhupāda: They are working hard because they are hogs and dogs. There is no need of working hard. Nature's arrangement is so perfect that if you live natural life, there is no need of hard work. This tree is standing in one place; it is not at all working. How it is standing and living? It is also living entity. The birds and beasts, they have no scientific laboratory. How they are living happily? So your advanced brain means you are spoiling, you do not know how to utilize the brain. The brain wants to be utilized for searching out Kṛṣṇa, but instead of Kṛṣṇa, you are searching out ashes, that's all. Brain is being misused.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this search for these symptoms are based only on the bodily comforts or bodily aspects.
Prabhupāda: But where you are getting the bodily comforts? Supposing you are (indistinct). The (indistinct) searches after bodily comfort, but still they are not getting bodily comfort. Where is the bodily comfort? There is disease, there is old age. Where is bodily comfort? You cannot stop it. It is very good that you are searching after bodily comfort, but there are so many discomforts of the body and the mind. You cannot stop it, then where is your actually benefit of searching out bodily comfort? You could not do it. Where is bodily comfort?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: For example, they will say that in early history people used to live in the caves and they used to wear skins.
Prabhupāda: That is your rascal's conception. They used to live in palaces. You are rascal; you do not know the history.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that they used to live..., the history, because they don't have the complete information.
Jayatīrtha: In this country there's a saying that everyone should be their own master. That's the philosophy. It's called individualism.
Prabhupāda: Own master... He does not know how to become own master. That he does not know. He speaks only. Now, what is their explanation to become own master? How they explain? Explain.
Jayatīrtha: The idea is that they want to be... to determine their own destiny.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayatīrtha: They want to determine their own destiny. They think if they work very hard, they'll be able to build up their environment... (noise of plane taking off).
Prabhupāda: This is not explanation. Own master means master of the senses.
Jayatīrtha: That they don't know.
Prabhupāda: Actually, everyone is servant of the senses at the present moment. So one has to become the master of the senses. That is called svāmī. Svāmī means master. Gosvāmī means master of the senses, the same thing. So everyone is servant of the senses. Everyone is acting being dictated by the senses. "Oh, it is very nice. Let me see." The eyes dictate what we see. What is time now?
Jayatīrtha: Five after seven.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So then they must know what is karma-phala. This is a fact. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). But they are..., do not know how to execute karma. They're doing all kinds of sinful activities. So, suppose after this body, on account of my sinful activities, I am going to become a rat or cat or snake or a tree, then what is the use of my so much, how you'd say, jumping over nationalism and this ism and that. If by nature I am going to accept next life the body of a cat and dog, or a tree, then what is the meaning of my, this so-called nationality at the present moment? Is it not the duty of the guardians who are taking care of the people or their son, to educate human being in such a way that they can get better body? What is that education? You are darkness, nobody knows what kind of body he's going to accept next life.
Scholar: At least we can start from living moral life.
Prabhupāda: But they're not living, they're not living. They are doing all kinds of sinful activities, they are drinking, they are having illicit sex, they're gambling, they're killing animals. Very sin... Everyone is engaged in these things. Maybe few percentage people are not engaged. But the throughout the whole world they're implicated in these four kinds of sinful activities. How you can expect that he's going to have next body very nice? No. That is not possible if you believe in karma. According to karma... Just like here in the human society there is law that if you kill a man, you should be also killed. Similarly, in God's laws so the same law is there. Māṁ sa, māṁsa. If I eat an animal then he will have the chance to eat me next life. This is karma. Who is caring for all these things? Who is caring? Nobody's caring. They're slaughtering animals like anything. So this kind of adjustment will not help. They must know scientifically what is the value of life. They must take information from authorized scriptures. Then the human society will be profitable. Otherwise no. Just like there is next life, a boy is educated to have good education so that in the next life—means when he's young man—he will be happy.
Prabhupāda: ...brāhmaṇa.
Devotee (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: But generally, unless they are very highly elevated... (break) ...to elevate them, harijanas.
Devotee (1): Harijanas.
Prabhupāda: But he did not know how to make them harijana. He was politically trying. These are old garments?
Devotee (1): No. New.
Prabhupāda: They are selling new.
Devotee (1): Yes. This is a very well attended market, this area.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I can see. When the market opens?
Devotee (1): About 9 o'clock or 9:30. Then they open until 1(2):30 and close all afternoon. All over Jakarta they close all afternoon and at five o'clock then they open...
Prabhupāda: And go then up to 10:00.
Devotee (1): 8:30.
Devotee (2): It's a good system in a country with this weather, very hot in the afternoon, to close the business in the mid-day. (indistinct)
Devotee (1): :Some type of military school. Looks like naval.
Prabhupāda: So how they are thinking? He does not know, what is the use of thinking rascally? One can think properly if he knows things. If he does not know, then what is the use of thinking? The madman also thinks. What is the use of such thinking? Now our thinking begins from the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As the body's changing from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, similarly the proprietor of the body will change this body. At the last moment. Death means changing of the body. This is the... Now we can think. When there is proper subject matter, then you can think, how it is, how the changes. You have no proper subject matter, nobody is to guide you. What is the value of your thinking? Like dogs and cats? You do not know how to think. That is possible. How to think, that is possible in human life. So if you don't take up opportunity, how to think, then what is the use of your thinking like cats and dogs? Simply wasting time. The valuable life, you are wasting. Making experiment in the laboratory, nonsensically, that from matter they'll create life. You see. How this nonsense...? What is the use of such thinking? Which is never possible. These rascals are thinking on that, in that way, that they'll in future produce life from matter which has never been possible in the history, past, present and they're thinking; "Oh, bright future." That potter's thinking. Yes.
Brahmānanda: Actually, the future looks very dim because of the military. They've created such a military threat with their atomic bombs and armies and so on.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Idle brain is a devil's workshop. If they're not directed, then think like devil. We are thinking rightly because we are taking direction from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Therefore our thinking has meaning. And what is the value of their thinking? It has no value. Now we are thinking... Just like, take the first instruction, that within this body there is the proprietor of the body. You can go on thinking: "Then am I this body?" So you can think on your finger. "I am this finger?" The answer from the within will come: "No, you are not finger. It is your finger. It is your finger. You are not finger." If I am finger, then if I cut my finger, why shall I not die? If I am finger? Therefore it is my finger. Just like I'll never think that I am this stick. It is my stick. That is thinking. That is thinking. If I wrongly think that I am this body, then your whole thinking process is wrong and they are thinking like that, that we are this body.
- yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
- sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijyadhīḥ
- yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
- janeṣvabhijñeṣu sa eva gokaraḥ
- (SB 10.84.13)
So such kind of thinking is done by the asses and cows, yasyātma-buddhiḥ. One who is thinking: "I am this body," he's no better than the animal, ass or cow. They're all thinking like that: "I am this body." They're asses. And the whole world is suffering by thinking like that. "I am American, I am Indian, I am Russian, I am this, I am that." That's all. We must know how to think. Then our thinking will produce some good result. If I do not know how to think, then what is the use of my thinking? A mad man is also thinking: "I am the emperor." Does it mean that he's emperor? Sometimes, I have seen, a madman falls flat on the street. "Nobody can check me." So motor driver, they become little cautious, he's a rascal, madman. So madman's thinking, what is the value of madman's thinking? They're all mad. Piśācī paile jana mati chana hana.(?)They're a ghostly haunted person. As he's mad, similarly those who are entrapped by this material energy, they're all madmen. If I think that, "I am this coat, I am this shirt, I am this cloth," am I not mad? The body's just like shirt and coat. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22).
Prabhupāda: So many things you will change. (pause) And that is mystic power for me.
Kṛṣṇa-Kāntī: Surfing?
Prabhupāda: Yes, because I do not know how to do it. Therefore it is mystic power. But the boy is going like this. (pause) Just like one of the yogīs, she (he) walked over the river, crossed. So another old man said: "Oh this is only two paisā worth." Why? "I will pay two paisā to this boatman. He will cross me there." But to attain that power, he had to spend so many years for practicing. This is waste of time. If you can do it by paying two paisā or one ānā to a boatman to cross the river, why should you for ten years or fifteen years practice this yoga, just to show a magic?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda, I remember an incident in Bombay. That was when I was in Calcutta about, a few years ago. There was a yogī. There was advertisement that he was going to walk on water.
Prabhupāda: No, that is possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I think it was about five hundred rupees per ticket.
Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. His real aim was to get some money.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Radhakrishnan was there, the president. But ultimately, he could not walk. He fell down in the water.
Prabhupāda: And what about the money?
Prabhupāda: Ah! It can be measured, but they say there is no soul.
Krishna Tiwari: Scientists say there's no soul?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: Because they don't know how to look for it.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, how they'll measure? That way it is impossible for them to measure.
Devotee: They can't find it.
Prabhupāda: They cannot find it.
Krishna Tiwari: But nobody else has.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: Nobody else has found it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We, I said, this is the measurement.
Krishna Tiwari: But since nobody else has found it...
Prabhupāda: Nobody else has found it, that is different thing, but the measurement is there in the śāstra.
Krishna Tiwari: How to measure it then?
Prabhupāda: How to measure, that is a different thing, but the measurement is there.
Śyāmasundara: One thing that Malcolm and I were talking about before was that, he was lamenting that our educational system nowadays in the west, material education, practically spoils the child to understand spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Why in the West? Everywhere.
Malcolm: More in the West because the child is more constrained in his molding.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole defect is that we are missing the goal of life. Therefore we do not know how to conduct business with the goal of life. At the present moment, in every field, they are missing the goal of life.
Malcolm: They seem oppressed by weight of number, that there are too many.
Prabhupāda: No, goal is one.
Malcolm: No, people.
Prabhupāda: No, people do not know the goal. That is the defect of modern civilization. Not modern, that is the defect of material existence.
Malcolm: But a number of people over a certain size make a goal by the number of people.
Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that?
Pradyumna: When a number of people think in a certain way?
Malcolm: No. The number of people make the goal not of them, but of the number.
Paramahaṁsa: Mass. Mass opinion usually forms society.
Prabhupāda: No, soul is different. Soul is different. Soul is finer than intelligence. These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.
- indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
- indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
- manasas tu parā buddhir
- yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ
- (BG 3.42)
First of all, gross understanding. This body means the senses. Indriyāṇi. Those who are animals, they are thinking this is all. But they do not understand that these indriyas are being controlled by the mind. If one's mind is, what is called, distorted, then the indriyas cannot work. That is madman. You try to cure the mental disease just to bring him in proper position to control the senses. Otherwise, he does not know how to control the senses. Therefore the controller of the senses is the mind. And above the mind there is intelligence. And above the intelligence there is soul. So we cannot see even the mind, intelligence and ego. And how we can see the soul? The soul has got his magnitude. And without understanding, without education about the soul, about the spirit soul, any other understanding, that is animal understanding. (pause) Give him prasāda.
Prabhupāda: How can be all Gods then? That is practical. If everyone is God, then what is the meaning of God? If... Do you think everyone is president, everyone is Indira Gandhi? Indira Gandhi is one. The Prime Minister cannot be many. It is a common sense. How everyone can be God? This is nonsense. Anyone thinks that there are many gods, he does not know what is God. Aiye. God is one. Ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti. Therefore there is no education what is God. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagava... Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "Nobody else superior than Me." That is God. Asama-ūrdhva. God is described in the Bhagavad-gītā as asama-ūrdhva. You can come this side? Let them come forward. You sit down... (break) ...equal to God. And nobody can be greater than God. That is "God is great." If somebody becomes equal to you, how you can be great? Or if somebody is higher than you, then how you can be great? So there is no equal to God, nor greater than Him. That is God. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). (break) "...anyone greater than Me." That is God. There are so many Gods, false gods, nowadays. Can anyone say that "Nobody is greater than me"? All these rascal Gods, can he say? Can anyone say? Immediately... He feels some sickness. Immediately he has to call greater God, physician. And he's claiming, "I am God." We don't want such kind of God, manufactured God. We want real God. When we see nobody is greater than Him, that is God. (break) ...We accept so many pseudo, pretender as God. But we do not know how to test him, whether he is greater than everyone? Whether nobody is greater than him? Then he's God. Can you find out any, so many gods, who has no greater than him, or equal to him? You are claiming You are God, I am also claiming, God. Then we are equal. Then how you can be God or how I can be God? We are equals. As soon as you find there are equals, or as soon as find there is greater, then you are not God. God—the great. He must be greater than everyone.
Prabhupāda: Just try to understand that you must know how to discharge your duty. Because you do not know what is duty, therefore you are placing so many other duties, "Nationality, this is, this is..." kṛṣṇa-bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. If you become devotee... Just like your son. Is he not maintaining his family, is he not respecting his father, mother, he is not doing his duty in the service, he is doing his spiritual master? But the main principle is that he is devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So if you become devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you can discharge your duties properly; otherwise you cannot. It is not possible. If you want to pour water, leaf after leaf, it will be useless waste of time. But if you pour water in the center, on the root, it will go everywhere. Because he is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he knows how to discharge his duty towards his parents, how to discharge his duty to his wife, how to discharge his duties towards his spiritual master. He knows everything. But one who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he does not know. He is simply confused. Sometimes jumping here, something jumping there, something jumping there. He does not know how to pour water.
Guest (1): But what should be the first step to become a devotee.
Prabhupāda: Yes, dadāti. That I have already explained. Dadāti. He must give. Give. Everyone goes to God to beg, "God, give us our daily bread." But one must go to God to give Him. If I do not give bread to Kṛṣṇa, he will be starving. This is devotee's mentality. Yaśodāmāyī, Yaśodāmāyī is thinking, Kṛṣṇa, "If I do not feed Kṛṣṇa well, my child will die." This is devotion. Otherwise everyone is asking from Kṛṣṇa. But Yaśodā-mā is thinking that "If I do not maintain Kṛṣṇa properly, He will die." Therefore he (she) is always trying to supply everything, mākhana, miśri. So real love begins when you try to give God. Everyone is trying to take from God, "Oh father, give us our daily bread." This is not pure devotee. This is good because he has approached God, but this is not devotion. It is not devotion, it is..., means business "God, give me something, then I will love you." Is it not?
Prabhupāda: Ah, therefore the whole world is in confusion. All rascals, they are busy. What is the use of such business? Like monkey. Monkey's very busy, always, but doing harm. That's all. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, ugra-karmāṇaḥ kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ. These rascals, they are busy just to destroy the whole world and do the mischief. That's all. Actually, they are doing so. That we also... In English language, sometimes it is said, "A sharp razor in the hands of a child." The child... That is this imitation. They want to imitate their father. So if he imitates the razor sharp, then he will create havoc. So these rascals, they have got now all power, and therefore creating havoc. They do not know how to use it. According to Vedic principle, the śūdras, they should not be given more money, the worker class. Now the worker class is given more money. So what they'll do? They'll produce drunkards. That's all. In America, it is evident. They do not know how to use money. So therefore we see, fifty-two percent drunkards in your country. Eh? What is the percentage?
Devotee: I'm not sure, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Karandhara: It's probably close to that.
Prabhupāda: Eh? At least fifty-percent. Eh?
Karandhara: Drunkards, debauchers.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Karandhara: Criminals.
Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21). What is the time?
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you do not know, how you'll make them happy? You'll create havoc.
Yaśomatīnandana: Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9).
Prabhupāda: Yes, you do not know how to make them happy. First of all learn how to make them happy. You cannot manufacture your program to make them happy. That everyone is doing. But the more they are acting, the world becoming in chaotic condition. You know what is the standard of happiness, how to make them happy; then you can work. If a medical man, he has never seen a medical college and if he wants to treat patient, what is this?
Hṛdayānanda: A criminal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Quack. He must know how to make them happy. That is first business.
Yaśomatīnandana: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Karandhara: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Jaya.
Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. All glories to Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda gets in the car)
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. They are trying to go to the perfect platform, but they have no idea what is perfect. That is their foolishness. Why they are making advancement? Advancement means there must be a goal where you will reach? But you have no goal. You do not know what is that goal, so what is the meaning of your advancement? Why you are wasting time blindly?
Karandhara: They want that perfection, but they want it with this body and its paraphernalia. They don't want to give this body up.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this body can also be perfect. But you do not know how to make it.
Prajāpati: Devotees are beginning more and more, Śrīla Prabhupāda, under your instruction, to enter into politics. But the political leaders, they will claim, "Well you have no experience. How can you be qualified to...?"
Prabhupāda: No, we have got experience. If there is a good man, he'll do, he'll act very nice. That we have got experience. Just like if a man is honest, you can trust him. This is our experience. So similarly, if the leaders be good according to this standard, then the whole human society will be happy. This is our propaganda. We are not after the post, but we have to disclose this rascaldom, that "All these rascals, animals, fools, they are taking the post of leader, and you are suffering repeatedly, but you have no sense that 'How we can be happy with this Nixon and company's leadership?' " So therefore we want to disclose the fact, that's all. We have no ambition. Just like we are brāhmaṇas. We have nothing to do, but according to Vedic civilization, the brāhmaṇas guides the kṣatriyas how to rule. So our position is to reform the politicians. We are not going to compete with them, we have no business, neither we have time. But because people are suffering—we want everyone to be happy-therefore we want to reform these rascals. That is our goal. What we shall do taking part in politics? We have no business. But our real aim is how people will be happy. That is our real aim. So these rascals are leading, misleading. Therefore we want to check them. Is that all right? Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is our propaganda, that "This is the standard of leadership. So if you elect first-class leader, then your government will be first-class. But if you elect some rogues and thieves, drunkards, then how you can expect good government?" This is natural. After all, democracy means the public elect. The public does not know how to distinguish the rogues and thieves. Therefore the rogues and thieves take the advantage of it and, somehow or other, and take vote and sit on the presidential chair. That is difficulty. Just like our propaganda is... We are not making any propaganda in the beginning, that "Stop this cow slaughter." We are educating people, "Don't eat meat." If people become educated, automatically the slaughterhouse will be closed. This is our propaganda. "Don't drink." So if people give up drinking, automatically the drinking business will be closed.
Prajāpati: You have given us this instruction, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to confront these leaders. We understand that this is your very much wish and we shall do everything we can to try to fulfill your desire.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do it. Do it.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda gets in the car)
Prabhupāda: If you can educate the people. "Don't vote for the rascals. Just try to understand who is the real man, who is the real leader."
Hṛdayānanda: So political program is very important.
Prabhupāda: Well, something wrong was done; therefore everything is wrong. If somebody, he might have seen some counterfeit coin, does it mean the whole currency is counterfeit? You cannot say like that.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: The śūdra mentality does not know how to correct the situation. They try to make liberty for themselves without instituting real religion again. (break)
Prabhupāda: This idea also. Now there should be examination whether so-called brāhmaṇas, they are actually following the brāhmaṇa regulative principle and chanting the mantra regularly. Otherwise they should be converted again śūdra. If we become safe simply by having a thread and do not do properly, then what is this? This should be examined. Every individual should be asked, "Now chant this Gāyatrī-mantra." He must. Are they doing properly?
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. Otherwise, simply by name, so-called sacred thread holder will not do. Then again the same brahminical class as in India. (break) ...Paraśurāma. You know Paraśurāma?
Karandhara: The incarnation?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you, if by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, you can save your suffering, what is the difficulty, not to accept it? Everyone is suffering in this material world. And everyone is trying to get out of the suffering. That is also a fact.
Prajāpati: They try to get out of suffering by committing more sins.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they do not know how to get out of the suffering. (break)
Candanācārya: ...to tell people who think that they are not suffering that they are actually suffering.
Prabhupāda: That means it is difficult to teach insane person. That's all. Therefore the best means is, without teaching, "Please come here, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and takes little prasādam and go home." Then his insanity will be cured. Then he will be all right. This is our point. We don't sermonize in the beginning. We simply request, "All right, you are very good. Nobody is more intelligent than you. Yes. Please come here, sit down, chant, dance. It is very nice, and takes little prasādam. Go home." That is our program. Then we teach. When he comes to his little sanity, then he will be cured. (break)
Prajāpati: ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, the theologians call contrition. Means an actual thinking about how sinful we are, actually meditating on our sinful condition.
Prabhupāda: Yes, simply meditating on sinful condition, that is also good. But what is the counteraction? That we must know. Just like one man is suffering from some disease. He knows that "I have infected this disease." So simply thinking, "Oh, I have been infected by this disease," that is not good. He must go to a physician to cure it. That is intelligence.
Candanācārya: Sincere people will appreciate that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prajāpati: In the early days of this movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in New York, devotees said they did not know how to treat Your Divine Grace. They did not know your exalted position. I think we are still very much offensive.
Prabhupāda: No, I am servant. I have no exalted position. Servant. Caitanya Mahāprabhu sat down in a place where people were washing their feet. Yes. (break) ...a representative of Kṛṣṇa. I came to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Kṛṣṇa has sent so many representatives to help me. I consider like that. Without your help I could not do. So I wanted Kṛṣṇa's help, so Kṛṣṇa has sent you. Therefore you are representative of Kṛṣṇa. That is my conception.
Prajāpati: We're just dogs, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prajāpati: Barking at your feet, that's all.
Prabhupāda: That is your humbleness. That is nice.
Prajāpati: Not humbleness. That's fact.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)
Candanācārya: ...that there are some things that the guru says that the disciple does not accept.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The main point is that "In God we trust," on this slogan... So the same point that, "What do you mean by God and what do you mean by trust? That you do not know." So you have to explain what is God and what is trust, thoroughly, from our books. Our point of propaganda should be that "It is very good that you write this slogan, 'In God we trust,' but nobody has got clear conception of God; neither they do not know what is the meaning of trust. Under the circumstances, so you have to learn it scientifically. And our propaganda is like that, to teach actually what is God and what is trust. And you important men of the state, you come forward, try to understand, and open schools, colleges. Make it perfectly known what is God. And make America strong. As the Communist party, they are preaching godlessness, now America should preach, 'No, in God we trust.' Now there should be a fight, not on the political point of view, but actually it includes everything. A class of men godless and a class of men who knows God. There should be fight. Then there will be peace in the world. The class of men who do not believe in God, they should be punished, because they are creating all the troubles. A man who trusts in God, he is the ideal man. He will never create any trouble. Therefore this science should be learned very scientifically. And we are prepared. And you also must be able to teach them. Then it will be successful." (Aside:) You leave little aloof. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. "Anyone who does not know what is God and does not know how to trust in God, he is animal. So how you can expect a human civilization composed of some animals? That you have to learn from us. If you are serious. If you simply make it a slogan, but you remain same as the man who does not know what is God, then what is the meaning of this slogan? That will not help you." Just like sometimes they put the signboard, "Goodman and Company," businessmen. The signboard is "Goodman," but he is cheating simply, from business point of view. That kind of signboard will not help you. If you actually believe in God, then try to understand what is God.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...where is their food? Immediately, just see.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: The food and the sand looks exactly the same. So how they are immediately able to tell which is which?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see their intelligence. You are very much proud of your intelligence. Just see their intelligence. Everyone is intelligent. Therefore actual intelligence is he who knows Kṛṣṇa. He does not know Kṛṣṇa. He has got intelligence. You cannot deny that. But he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect. You have got intelligence; you can understand Kṛṣṇa. So if you don't use your intelligence for understanding Kṛṣṇa, you are nothing but cats and dogs. Kṛpaṇa. They are called kṛpaṇas. Kṛpaṇa means miser. One has got money, but he does not know how to utilize it. He is called kṛpaṇa, miser. They are so rascal that they cannot conceive that there is something as God and He can be known. Hopeless. That is the real point. Otherwise why so many scientists are...? They know, "This is idea only. There is nothing like God. So let us put our theories." That's all. That is your business, theology. They are so rubbish. That was the first publication in (the Village) Voice paper. They wrote when I first began in 1965 that "We thought that God is dead, but Swamiji has brought God with kīrtana." They admitted this. I think the paper, you have got copy. You can see it. It said exactly like this, that "We thought God is dead, but here we see, Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought God in kīrtana." That's it.
Child: Perfect...
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Child: Shells.
Prabhupāda: What you will do? There is no pearl. Throw it. Wash your hand. Wash.
Prabhupāda: Our men are still coming?
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) ...plan for wasting time. (devotees laugh) So the material world means they have got different devices for wasting time, not for utilizing time. Is it correct?
Prajāpati: It is considered one of our major problems, leisure time. People are having more time on their hands and they do not know what to do with it. So the government, they're scratching their heads inventing things for people to waste their time.
Prabhupāda: This is the difficulty. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). Because they are rascal, they do not know how to utilize time, what is the aim of life, where you have to go. These things they don't know. So they must waste time. So it is the... Just like child. He wastes time in so many ways. It is the duty of the parents, guardians, to cr..., synchronize his activities so that he may not waste his time. It is the duty of the guardians. Similarly these rascals, they're wasting time. You have to engage them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then their time will be utilized. (break)
Devotee (3): ...in Holland wasn't any fuel Sundays, and the people could go outside with the cars, and then the statistics say that the fight between the family increased so, so much the police went... They went to the houses to, just to separate the people because there was fighting so much because they didn't have anywhere to go on Sundays. (devotees laugh)
Prabhupāda: Just see. It has become a problem, ah, to remain at home. (break)
Prajāpati: ...society, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it would train up brahminical qualities. But in the people in general, how can we engage them also in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? How can we provide them a means to use their leisure time to perfect their lives?
Prabhupāda: Just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Is it very difficult?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bali Mardana: ...so they become very sturdy to bear the suffering.
Yaśodānandana: Emotionless.
Prabhupāda: So one who can suffer without any protest, he's first-class man.
Bali Mardana: (laughs) Yeah.
Prabhupāda: That means they do not know how to stop suffering.
Bali Mardana: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: The... Here is one class, they're trying to become very strong to tolerate suffering, and other philosophies, they're making everything zero. There is no question of not suffering, but making zero. No suffering, nor neither suffering. Suffering or not..., both of them abolished, dismissed. This philosopher is... "This suffering cannot be dismissed. Therefore you be strong to tolerate it." Other philosophers they say, "There is suffering, so make it zero." But both of them have no information that there is real life where there is no suffering. Still there is life. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is life, but no suffering.
Bali Mardana: They're like owls.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause)
Bali Mardana: There's a river. (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes, one after another, problem will come.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Coming to the brain again, the, some people are working. Why some people are insane? For example, the mechanism of working the brain, some of the chemical pathways, they say, change, block. So some people become insane.
Prabhupāda: Insane? Then he cannot work. That's all. Even if I give you good machine... Just like I do not know how to work on it, so similarly, if one does not know how to work, then it is useless machine.
Karandhara: They are thinking that by certain types of chemicals they can correct things like depression and unhappiness. They say it's all just a chemical situation in the brain.
Prabhupāda: But that they propose so many nonsense things, but they cannot do anything.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are making experiments on rats now.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. They will go on experimenting life after life. That is their foolishness.
Gurukṛpā: Next life they may have to experiment in a dog's body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And some of our politicians, he has become a dog. Yes. Nehru. He has become a dog, in Stockholm. Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I told that to my mother and she would not believe it. You know, people think that if someone is a great politician or something, he can never become something like this.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Guest (1): Through ignorance. Men...
Prabhupāda: Then how you love the whole universe, if you are in ignorance?
Guest (1): You do your best.
Prabhupāda: If you are ignorant, you do not know how to love.
Guest (1): That's true, of course. Ignorance is...
Prabhupāda: Then how do you speak of universal love? When you do not know how to love, how do you speak universe, big, big word. You do not know the art of love, and you are speaking universal love.
Guest (1): Well, certainly every...
Prabhupāda: That is ignorance. First of all you say that you do not know how to love, and you are speaking of love the universe. It has already...
Guest (1): Certainly each being in the universe is a part of the universe...
Prabhupāda: But you cannot love each being. That is my point.
Devotee: They were hinting at it. She was saying if you love a pure being...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Prabhupāda: These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Kṛṣṇa, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance. "All right enjoy (indistinct)," and giving instruction also that you enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again. Just like a father. Children wants to play in the (indistinct). "All right, you play." Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. (indistinct), they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Kṛṣṇa has given us freedom, "All right enjoy". And now Kṛṣṇa gives instruction that "now you give up all this (indistinct) come back, then you (indistinct)." He created for you. Same example I always give. Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that, "Why government is creating, it is unnecessary, it's premature, construction of jail work(?). But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Kṛṣṇa, they want to enjoy. "All right, for you, you enjoy to your fullest extent." And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying. Then Kṛṣṇa says that, "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be accepted." But the demons will never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirviśeṣavāda and śūnyavāda, to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say "Mr. such and such, you sit down here, try to become void," how long you shall do that, void?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Contaminated, they have contaminated the Hindu society by their contact, long contact.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise how the Hindus dared to demolish our temple?
Indian Man (5): Yes. That is the main thing.
Prabhupāda: They are less than Muslims
Dr. Patel: (Hindi for few sentences) This is, I tell you. That was a sort of a... We did not know how to act. (two people talking at once) This is how... Some people didn't... Some section of the people. Now Sonara, Sonara... So... They would not have earned. Otherwise they would not have touched anything. (Hindi) I told the people that did not know. They did it unaware. And we got a shock when we learned next morning that temple was demolished. Not only the pillars were cut by gas...
Yaśomatīnandana: For this temple, they raise so much objection, there is so much hassling, hassle.
Dr. Patel: They object because, you see. (Hindi) If you, if your enmity is created, even your good qualities, I would look down at that. That is what these people are doing some how or other. I don't know how.
Prabhupāda: Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ.
Dr. Patel: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Guṇam icchanti... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Then heart beating will go on, either you apply machine or no machine. Heart beating. But when the heart stops, no machine can revive it. So what is the use of machine? But by nature's way when the heart beating will stop, no machine can help. That is not possible.
Girirāja: So the doctors face a dilemma, that they keep the heart going by the machine, but they don't know whether the patient is actually living or dead. So they are afraid to stop the machine. They don't know how to decide when to stop the machine.
Prabhupāda: But when they stop it...?
Girirāja: Then the patient is dead. (laughter)
Yaśomatīnandana: That is the modern science, so imperfect. They don't even know whether a person is live or dead.
Prabhupāda: What do they know? They know something, but everyone knows. Even the birds and beasts, they also know something.
Girirāja: "In this way, one after another the body changes and the soul transmigrates. See how the plant worms change from one twig to another so carefully. Similarly the living entity changes his body as soon as the higher authorities decide on his next body." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the modern civlization is that they have no knowledge about the change of body. Almost 99 percent people, they do not know.
Yaśomatīnandana: Even the so-called religions, the religions even don't teach.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that is the system. That is the system. You should begin. That... That is described in the Bhāgavatam. The First and Second Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam are the two legs of Kṛṣṇa. That is the beginning. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). These professional reciters, they read Bhāgavata. They jump over immediately to the face. The Tenth Canto is described as the face of Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot go immediately to the head. You must begin from the feet. First Canto, Second Canto. Therefore there are nine cantos, and then Tenth Canto. And the Kṛṣṇa's rasa dance, that is the smiling of Kṛṣṇa. So you cannot ask the superior to take the facility of his smiling. Smiling will be when he is pleased. The difficulty is that the Māyāvādī philosophy, they do not accept the form of the Lord. And they do not know how to behave with the form. Of course, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's face and Kṛṣṇa's feet. There is no difference. But still, the system must be followed. Pāda-sevanam. It is very important verse. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). When one has heard, when one has properly chanted, he has little experience of the transcendental form of the Lord, then his service beginning. Just like I engage one servant. So gradually he is given service. "First of all this, first of all that, then..." Again and again, again, again. The same example can be given, that the husband and wife. Formerly, when I was married, my wife was eleven years old. So (laughing) an eleven years old girl and I was at the same time twenty-one, twenty-two. One day I captured her hand. She began to cry. A little girl, you see? So gradually, gradually. I know... When my brother-in-law, sister's husband, used to come... In the beginning, the girls were very... My sisters were same age. So they would meet the husband, offering a little pan or little sandeśa. (break) ...after this. Then niṣṭhā. Then he has got a firm conviction that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and my duty is to serve Kṛṣṇa." That is called niṣṭhā. Then ruci.
Prabhupāda:
- yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā
- sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ
- harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā
- mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ
- (SB 5.18.12)
yasya—anyone; asti—one, anyone who has; bhagavati—in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; akiñcanā-bhakti—unalloyed devotion, faith; sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ—with all the good qualities of the demigods, he is bestowed upon.
Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ: If one is not a devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. He cannot possess any good qualification. Why? Mano-rathena. He is simply hovering on the mental plane. Therefore mind's business is to accept and reject. There cannot be any permanent thing. So one has to transcend above the plane of mind and fixed up in the spiritual platform. Then he can have all the good qualities.
So at the present moment, the godless civilization... Therefore the leaders, they do not know how to lead people so that they may become happy. It is the duty of the leader, government, father, teacher, gurus, to see that the subordinates are very, very happy. We find in the history of Mahābhārata that during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira people were not suffering even from excessive heat or cold or any anxiety. So it is the duty of the leaders of the people and the government to see that the citizens are perfectly happy in their occupational duties and they are advancing in spiritual knowledge, because human life is not to live a polished animal life. That is not human life.
Prabhupāda: I may say in this connection, in America, the laborer class is very highly paid. Anyone, any labor class man can earn $25, $50, daily, very easily. But because there is no direction of the brain, these labor class of men—I have seen—they—especially these Negroes—51%, they are drunkards. They spend their money in drinking. They do not know how to utilize the money. Because the brain is not giving direction. Or they have no brain. "I have got so money. How I shall utilize it?" As soon as he gets money, he use it, he uses it for drinking. You may think that you are sufficiently paying to the labor class, worker class, but because he is not guided by brain, he is misspending the money.
C. Hennis: We are interested in that, too. We are interested in that, too. We don't want to tell people how to spend their money. We think that this would be...
Prabhupāda: You haven't got to say. But because he hasn't got brain, because he is not guided by the brain, he will misspend and create disturbance in the society.
C. Hennis: Well, we try to look after that in an indirect way. We don't, as I said, we don't tell people how to spend their money. We don't tell them what to do in their free time. We do try to make sure that they have proper facilities for leisure, that they have proper opportunities, sportsgrounds, swimming pools and so forth, although that's not our primary concern. But what we do try to do, and this will interest you very much, we have a very big program concerned with worker's education. We endeavor to provide programs of education to the worker in teaching him how to understand the problems of modern industry, to understand the problems of management, the people on the other side of the table, of the bargaining table; to understand how to read a balance sheet, for example, in a company, or understand what are the problems that face the management as distinct from the workers in a firm; to understand of the basic rudiments of economics and finance and that kind of thing.
Prabhupāda: No, no. What you gain by helping your fellow man? First of all that is the question.
Yogeśvara: He says, "The purpose of helping other people is not to gain something for yourself."
Prabhupāda: But I say that you help your fellow man. So do you know how to help him?
Swiss Man (1): Certain circumstances.
Yogeśvara: He says, "In certain circumstances."
Prabhupāda: In certain circumstances, but if you do not know how to... Suppose a man is diseased and you think... The doctor says that he should not eat anything. But if you think that "Let me give some food. The doctor is very cruel. He is not giving food," is it, that, helping or fully pushing him towards death? First of all you must know how to help. If I do not know—I help in the opposite way—that is not helping. That is degrading. These are all manufactured things. They are not... Helping means, real helping is, that a man or anyone... Everyone is suffering for want of knowledge. So if you can give knowledge, that is real help.
Swiss Man (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: The first thing is that this gentleman doesn't agree. He doesn't think that the major problem is ignorance. But this gentleman suggests that there is a danger, there's a danger in what he calls "spiritual pride," "spiritual egoism," that is to say, thinking that we have helped someone and actually...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are disgusted with this material thought, therefore they want to make it zero. But that is not possible. You must think of something. But they have no spiritual idea. They do not know what is spiritual thinking. They think that "Make it zero. These thoughts, let us make it zero." Just like a diseased man, suffering for, from the very beginning of his life... Then, if somebody suggests that "When you'll be cured, you'll very nicely eat, nicely walk and nicely think," so he's coming to the stage of diseased condition, "Again thinking? Again eating? Again lying down on bed? Then what is the difference? No, no. It must be zero: no eating, no sleeping, no bedding, nothing." He's thinking like that. Because he has got bad experience of his diseased condition, he thinks, "Again if there is eating, again if there is walking, then how it can be cured?" He cannot think of. These rascals, because they have no idea what is spiritual thinking, they want to make this thinking zero only. That's all. Śūnyavādī. They are called Śūnyavādī, nirvāṇa, Buddhist philosophy. "Your body is subjected to pains and pleasure; so dismantle this body." This is Buddha philosophy. "Make it zero. There will be no more pains and pleasure." "You have got some trouble in the eyes? Pluck it out." He does not know how to cure it. He simply knows, "Pluck it out." This is their philosophy. Asatyere satya kari māni. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's song.
Prabhupāda: You have no, rascal, because you are rascal. I have got. You just wash my feet and I will inform you.
Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!
Prabhupāda: You do not know how to swim, that does not mean I do not know. Is it a very honest statement? "Nobody can swim because he does not know." But if anyone knows how to swim, then why do you say that no one has done? You do not know, you accept that.
Devotee (3): Everyone thinks in terms of their own relative position.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Even an insignificant bird, because he knows swimming, he knows swimming, so he can (indistinct). Because you do not know swimming, you cannot say like that. Even insignificant bird, just see how nicely he is swimming. He knows the art. Everyone, cent percent of the modern people, they do not believe in God and they do not know what is religion. That is the position. They think religion is sentiment, anyone can manufacture his own sentiment, there is no God. This is going on. So we are in fault. It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. The whole world is under this conception; therefore we are at fault, we are preaching God consciousness.
Devotee (4): Generally they make it difficult.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee (4): Generally they make it difficult for us to preach.
Prabhupāda: Oh, sandeśa. It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandeśa, you give him one more. So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparations, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk, we make hundreds of preparations. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh, everything, whatever he likes. Because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free. Without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it. So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pounds. One thousand pounds daily in our, one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparations from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our programs, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy. (French)
Prabhupāda: Why do they not go outside?
Bhagavān: The problem is in the cities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Rascals, they want to live in city and drink wine and eat meat. So there must be problems. This civilization is simply to create problems, anartha. Anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily problems. So these rascals, they do not know how to solve it. But the solution is this bhakti-yoga. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:
- anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād
- bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje
- lokasyājānato vidvāṁś
- cakre sātvata-saṁhitām
- (SB 1.7.6)
These anarthas, problems, they have created under the influence of māyā. So if you want to solve it, you take to bhakti-yoga. Anarthopaśamam. Directly it will be solved, directly. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam, lokasya ajānataḥ. The rascals, they do not know. Therefore vidvān, Vyāsadeva, the most learned, vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām, he has done this sātvata, Vaiṣṇava literature, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. That is the only solution. These rascals, they have created problems. Therefore we have started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for their benefit. Let them cooperate, and we shall make solution of all problems-political, social, everything. Let them come and cooperate. (pause) They are not agreeable to close the slaughterhouse? Yesterday, you were not present when that mayor came?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore that is real bhakti-yoga. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that Anu-gītā is also a very practical work.
Prabhupāda: No Anu-gītā. Anu-gītā is also another rebellious condition. Bhakti, Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is required. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that the great choice of scriptures from India allows us to choose like that. We can choose.
Prabhupāda: No, you can choose, but if you do not know how to choose, what is the meaning of your choosing? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says he choose Radhakrishnan, he choose all the seigneur...
Prabhupāda: But they, all of them...
Pṛthu Putra: He reject Aurobindo...
Prabhupāda: I understand. All of them, they make center Kṛṣṇa. So why not take Kṛṣṇa? (French) Now this Ramakrishna said, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa." So if we give respect to Ramakrishna because of his being the same Kṛṣṇa, why not go to the same Kṛṣṇa directly? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says it's not the full conclusion. And he says he says he can take another way and it excludes...
Prabhupāda: No, no. He...
Yogeśvara: Siddheshvarananda.
Prabhupāda: Everything is worst. Sinful is sinful. Disease is disease. This body, either it is living or it is dead, it is not very important thing. Now see. And the whole world is after this body. Kṛṣṇa says, "The body, either dead or alive, it is not a subject matter for serious consideration." Now see. And what the world is going on? Simply for bodily... Body means senses. It is very difficult to the, for the western people to understand that body is not important thing; the soul is important thing. First of all, they do not know what is soul and then consideration of importance. This is their position. And if one cannot understand what is soul, what he will understand about God? Soul is a minute particle of God. If one cannot understand about this minute particle, then what he'll understand of the Supreme? In the laboratory, if you can test a little sample, just like take a little sea water, analyze, you chemically test, then you can understand what is the composition of the sea water. But if you have no knowledge even a small drop of sea water, how you'll understand the sea, what... That is their position. They do not understand even the sample of spirit soul, as we are. Simply they are trying to cover it. "There is no soul. There is no soul. Life is generated from matter." Although they cannot prove it. A fool's paradise. The fools, rascals, they are explaining the living force in some way, and other fools are accepting. This is the position of western countries, Europe and America. It is a fool's paradise. It is paradise, certainly. Very, very, big, big building and advancement, but all rascals and fools. Fool's paradise. (pause) And if you call a fool a fool, he'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamyati (?). (pause) (break) ...so many, so much production, but if nature's law can stop this production, then the question of over-population. If the nature likes, it can produce three times, four times this production. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). After all, nature is producing. We do not know how to deal with nature. Therefore there is scarcity, and we say, "over-population." There is no question of over-population. There are so many hundreds and thousands of birds within this forest, other animals. They have no problems of over-population. Eh? (pause) All these men, who are living in these villages, so what is their means of livelihood? Agriculture or industry? Or service?
Prabhupāda: Now, the efficiency, just like medical treatment. If you know what is the end... Āyurvedic treatment it is called nidāna, nidāna, or diagnosis. First of all, before treating a patient you first of all diagnose what is the disease. Then you can give the proper medicine. But these people do not know how to diagnose. The diagnosis is that they must realize the Supreme. That is the disease. Because they have forgotten the Supreme, they are suffering. The symptoms are different. But they are treating only for the symptoms, not for the root cause. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to treat the patient from the root cause. They have forgotten God. Let them remember God. Then everything will come into...
Professor Durckheim: There is no disease of the human being which the animal has not, which has not this source. Any kind of human malady and disease which is reserved to the human being has always this source of being separated from the innermost reality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that. The other than, lower animals, birds, beast, and other, they have no problem. And we have created so many problems. They have no eating problem. Thousands and thousands of sparrows are here. They have no problem of eating. They are very nicely jumping, flying, eating.
Professor Durckheim: And eating each other without complex.
Prabhupāda: To the qualified physician, not to the storekeeper. Similarly, first thing is, when you want to solve the problem, you must go to the right person. First of all you have to select. So we understand that Kṛṣṇa is the right person. So therefore, it is guaranteed. He knows everything. Others, they do not know. May know to some extent, not perfect. The first thing is that we have to select from whom. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In Vedas it is stated in order to solve the problem or to understand the situation, you should go to the guru. So who can be better than Kṛṣṇa as guru? He taught, He gave lessons to Brahmā, the original living creature in this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā. He gave lessons to Brahmā how to create. Therefore, who can be better guru than Kṛṣṇa? Or even Brahmā. Brahmā, (indistinct) he has created this universe, but He taught Brahmā. And Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the supreme guru. To take instruction from Him or His pure representative, that is wanted. Otherwise, there will be trouble(?). You cannot compare any ordinary person with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru, instructor. You do not know about Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing. But if you want to solve your problems, you must approach the guru. That is the Vedic instruction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This verb is used when you must: no excuse, gacchet, vidhiliṅ. In Sanskrit there are different forms of verb. So when vidhiliṅ is used, that means you must. There is no question of alternative. You must. So Kṛṣṇa is the original guru. Tene brahma ādi-kavaye, ādi-kavi. Ādi-kavaye means ādi-kavi, the original learned scholar. How much brain he has that he has created this universe, Brahmā. He has created the demigods, he has created the planets, so who can (indistinct)? And he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa. So who can be a better guru than Him? And so far you are concerned, you cannot (indistinct). You have not solved any question. Therefore required, they say, revolution. Problem is not solved. We are accepting one wrong process, and after going through it for some time, we want to change it. That is not solution. That means you do not know how to make it solved; you're simply trying this method, that method, this method, that method. That is (indistinct). That is not perfect. But because you cannot solve, therefore you say that the periodical revolution is required, because you have no solution. You do not know how to solve, but you accept some process for some time, and when you see it is useless, you make revolution, another (indistinct). This is punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Practically we see that. There is sex. Material life means sex pleasure. You told me you were in Mexico, in the street they are having sex?
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Teletype, yes. You push here "a" and the other end the "a" will immediately strike. There is no need of another person typing. But how it is being done? There is electronic arrangement by higher scientist. Not that, ordinary typewriter will not, no. Suppose if you keep one typewriter at your brother's place and you push it here, will it strike there? (laughter) Why? Because there is no arrangement. There is no arrangement. So these are common sense but the rascals will not understand. That without a touch of the living entity nothing can be done. The supreme living entity is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is said mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "I am the cause of the material energy working." Parasya śaktiḥ vividhaiva śruyate. There is parasya śaktiḥ, now who can explain how this flower has come into existence? That is same thing. The energy of Kṛṣṇa is working. Just like you want to paint one nice flower, so you have to take the brush and the color and you have to endeavor. Not that automatically coming, this beautiful flower. So how do you think this beautiful flower has come automatically? This is foolishness. There is also the brush, the paint, but it is so perfect that just like you cannot see how the other typewriter is striking. You cannot say it is automatically striking. There is arrangement. But this arrangement you do not understand. Therefore you are foolish, you are thinking that this typewriter is striking automatically. It is not automatically. Here the other typewriter it is stroken and there is electric arrangement and it is striking. So you have to understand like... That is sura. And asura, they will say, "No, there is no God. It is taking automatically, it is going on," This is foolishness. The asura means foolish, first-class foolish, that's all. Why it has become so? That is explained here. That they do not know how to behave, nāpi cācāraḥ. Na satyaṁ teṣu vidyate, neither they know what is the actual truth. They are defective themself and they are explaining in the defective way that so many rascal chemists they say that the chemical evolution is the cause of life.
Prabhupāda: Because the knowledge must be perfect; otherwise imperfect knowledge.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying why do you say a perfect person instead of saying a perfect philosophy?
Prabhupāda: No, unless the philosophy is given by a perfect person how the philosophy can be perfect? Philosophy means searching after the truth. So if he does not know how to find out the truth, what is the meaning of his philosophy? I was a student of philosophy. My professor was Dr. Urquhart. He used to say that "Philosophy is the science of science." So unless he is a perfect scientist, how he can give science?
Professor: I have other question. Why do we want to transcend?
Prabhupāda: I am not wanting. I am simply distributing the transcendental knowledge.
Professor: Will not transcendence be an illusion too?
Prabhupāda: No, no, there is proof. It is not emotion. What you say, you have no proof, but what I say I have got proof. What you say, you become your own authority. But what I say, I have got greater authority. Just like two lawyers speaking before the court—the lawyer who gives quotation from the authority, he gains the case.
Professor: Do you have any evidence?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Professor: Would you tell us your experiences in that field?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Reporter: Will they be virtually living outside...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Outside also you can live. Simply you must know how to live. At the present moment you do not know how to live. That's all. And there is no education how to live. All of us being sent to the slaughterhouse, that's all. They do not know how to live. In the Vedic civilization you will find the first proposition is how to live. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). How to live... First the human society is divided into four: the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya, or the śūdra. The first-class intelligent man, they are educated as brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Just like we are training engineer, similarly, a class of men, those who are very intelligent, they should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. They should be trained up how to speak truth any circumstance. Even to the enemy he will speak truth. This requires training, not that foolishly, a cats' and dogs' life. What is the value of this life? The modern civilization, they do not know how to live. They are simply interested in eating, and that's also any nonsense eating. But according to Vedic civilization, "This eating is first class. This eating is second class. This eating is third class. This eating is fourth class." So many things required to correct the mistaken way of civilization. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Reporter: And is the correct way of living merely a way of doing, actually, a sort of higher state of consciousness where you're experiencing something different to...
Prabhupāda: And catalogue? Where is? This is BBT?
Gargamuni: Yes. This tells about your books.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) ...movement, (Bengali) bogus religious, it is scientific. You can question; I will understand. (break) They do not know what is the meaning of life. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Another blind leader, so-called leader, he is blind himself. He does not know how to lead people. And the followers, followers are also blind. So what will be the result? They are bound up... Suppose if I tightly wrap your eyes, and all of them are done so, then how you will lead them?
Guest: Blind leaders and blind followers?
Prabhupāda: Then they are controlled by the laws of material nature, and they want to be happy independently. This is rascaldom. If I am controlling you and you want to become happy independently, how it is possible? You must get out of the control first of all. Your eyes should be open. Then you can do something independently. But you are under my control fully, and I have wrapped up your eyes with very thick layer of cloth, and then how you can become independent, work. That they do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). This māyā, this energy, is very, very strong. You cannot get out of it. Then what is the way? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then immediately he gets out of the control of māyā. That is the sign. Otherwise, if I remain a blind man, how can I lead others? Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, janma sārthaka kari kāra para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). You are very busy doing good to others, but first of all make your life perfect. And otherwise, you rascal, fool, blind, what you will do? So where is the training? Where the politicians are going to take training how to become free from the wrapping, illusion? So they are in illusion, in darkness. What they can do? Futile attempt. Therefore all plans are failure. So many Hitler, so many Gandhi, so many Churchill, they came and...
Haṁsadūta: (German)
Guest (2) (Indian man): Just one sentence, Prabhupāda. Another thing is they know they are taking body again and again. They are taking the body again and again after birth. Why they are committing again and again sins and which mode of nature...?
Prabhupāda: Because they do not know how to stop this process. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. You can stop this. But these... Again rascals. They'll not take the method. Kṛṣṇa said that "If you simply try to understand Me," janma, "why I appear and why I come here and work," karma..., "they are divine." The divine nature of Kṛṣṇa's appearance, disappearance and activities, if one can understand, then immediately he becomes free from this process. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). But the rascals will not do that. They'll misunderstand Kṛṣṇa. They'll misdescribe Kṛṣṇa. They'll think, "Kṛṣṇa is ordinary man." Gandhi will say that "I don't think there was any person living as Kṛṣṇa." And he is mahātmā. These things are going on. Mahātmā is proving himself as the greatest rascal. This is your mahātmā, and what to speak of the durātmā. So you are being guided by these...
Guest (2): A lot of people in... Before I came to your temple in Toronto, in our family nobody is eating any meat. When I went West, I got it some, this point, and I was misguided by the different philosophies. So lot of misguiding and misled...
Prabhupāda: That is my rascaldom. Why I shall be misguided? I must know who is the right person.
Guest (2): They are fallen from. A lot of people in India, they have all misguided and misleading, their own adjusted, their own...
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (aside:) Stop that also. (break) ...kṛpana bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ, yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). This gṛhastha life is a concession for sex life. Otherwise, there is no need of gṛhastha life. But everything can be used to make the best use of a bad bargain. That is another thing. Actually, to become free from all responsibility and anxieties, if one remains a brahmacārī, that is very good. That is the recommendation of śāstra. But if you cannot... Because the material world is going on under sex impulse, by nature the sex impulse is there. He will agitate you. But if you can control by becoming a rigid brahmacārī, that is better. But it is difficult. Therefore this concession is given. But what is this concession? The concession is sex life. That's all. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi sukhaṁ hi tuccham kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha-duḥkham. It is an itching sensation. And after satisfying the itching sensation, there are so many responsibilities and trouble. But tṛpyanti neha kṛpanāḥ. Those who are kṛpanāḥ, does not know how to utilize this life... So once I have taken to sex life and I am suffering so many after... Of course, now to stop the suffering, the have invented this contraceptive method. He knows there is suffering, but they, in order to avoid this suffering, they're taking this contraceptive method. And that is also suffering. That he does not know. Bhrun hatyā. Contraceptive method means killing the embryo. So that is also another sinful. He's taking so much responsibilities. So either you take contraceptive method or do not take contraceptive method... If you do not take, then the child is born. Then you have to take responsibility. Now they're killing the child, in this way becoming implicated. But if one is trained up to remain a rigid brahmacārī, there is no trouble.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In Darwin.
Devotees: Oh, in that, that cyclone, cyclone...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And whole city smashed.
Rāmeśvara: They don't know how to search beyond the microscopic level, microscope level. They think that the atoms have their own energy. They don't know the process of searching...
Prabhupāda: The energy is: Kṛṣṇa is there. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). The asura's business is to avoid Kṛṣṇa. That is their business. And our business is to establish everywhere Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between them and ourself.
Rāmeśvara: There is one theory that even the atoms have intelligence because the way they combine together to form larger molecules...
Prabhupāda: That means that is Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. They do not see Kṛṣṇa. Try to understand the whole philosophy because you have to preach and you have to confront so many atheist rascals.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These scientists need gurus.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The scientists need guru.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, śūdras. When a śūdra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Nalinī-kānta: So intoxication, illicit sex, we will make that illegal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is illegal, but because they are rogues and rascals, they are doing all these illegal things. And because it is democracy, when the majority are acting illegally, it becomes legal. This is democracy. They cannot avoid it. They want to do the same thing by voting "There is no God." So there is no God. Bas. Finish. (end)
Prabhupāda: But nobody is fit to survive. (laughs) That is the real problem. You are struggling for surviving, but you'll not survive. That is nature's law.
Rāmeśvara: Well, they say that within this life...
Prabhupāda: Because... There is. But these rascals, they do not know how to survive. If you have got death, then where is your question of surviving?
Pañcadraviḍa: So why not eat, drink, and be merry because tomorrow you die?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. That, animals are also doing. You can do that.
Pañcadraviḍa: But the animals are happy.
Prabhupāda: But why do you say survival? The animals do not think of survival.
Pañcadraviḍa: I didn't mention survival. He did.
Prabhupāda: They are free. They are never worried about survival or death. Never.
Pañcadraviḍa: So the animals are happy...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But you...
Pañcadraviḍa: But human beings are unhappy.
Prabhupāda: So therefore they are becoming generally, gliding down to animal life.
Prabhupāda: If you surrender to God, then you become perfect.
Amogha: They seem to like everything about our philosophy, except when we explain very clearly that everyone is sinning and under the control of lust and that we must become free from lust. Then they become disturbed because they don't know how to do this, and they want to disclaim it. Just when I was saying that in one class, they all understood very clearly by examples that we are all controlled by our senses, and this microphone speaker came on for all classes, interrupting my speech, and a voice announced in the Catholic school, "Would all the students whose parents purchased tickets for the wine-tasting festival tonight please report to the office," and they all began to laugh because they were embarrassed, because they could see that actually they were engaged in sinful activities. They are also very amazed when they see your books. Sometimes we take ten or fifteen books-Bhagavad-gītā, and ten Śrīmad Bhāgavatams, Caitanya-caritāmṛta—and we line them all across the front wall or desk, maybe fifteen books. And I begin by saying, "I'm sorry there's only a few minutes to talk, because our Bible is very big," and then I explain, "This is Bhagavad-gītā, and then Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam's sixty volumes. Caitanya-caritāmṛta-twelve volumes." And they become very much amazed that this is our..., beginning of our Bible. (break) What can we say to Communists to attract them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Happiness is life. How you can give up?
Paramahaṁsa: But if we desire for happiness, then we are being selfish.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but you do not know where you is your self... (break) ...sense. That is your foolishness. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31), they do not know. Everyone is selfish, everyone is self-interested. But he does not know how to fulfill it. That is foolishness.
Paramahaṁsa: But isn't it better to give up all ego altogether?
Prabhupāda: Why? Why? That is Māyāvādī philosophy. We make our ego purified. "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is wanted. Not that to make my egoism zero. That is Māyāvāda. They are disappointed, they think finish this egoism. It cannot be finished. Because you are individual soul, it cannot be finished. Simply it has to be purified. I am thinking Indian, you are thinking American. You are neither American neither Indian. We are all part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Direct we have to come to that point. Not to falsely think that I am American, I am Indian, I am cat, I am dog. That has to be finished. But you'll come to the real egoism, that I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. That "I am" will go on. No that... They are thinking in a way to finish the "I am" or "I am the same." Wrong thing.
Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the material scientists are so inquisitive, yet they are leading lives like cats and dogs, how can they come to...?
Paramahaṁsa: But still, everyone in India respects Gandhi so much. They have statues and everything.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. He was a good gentleman. He was very humble, meek. Because you have got some fault, that does not mean you have no qualities. That is another thing. But if you deal wrongly with something, then you must be called a foolish man. You may have very good qualities, but if you do not know how to deal with business, then you are foolish. He was mainly engaged in politics, but he did not know how to deal with politics. He was reading Bhagavad-gītā and he was misleading people that in the Bhagavad-gītā there is nonviolence. Just see. Because Arjuna wanted to become nonviolent the whole Bhagavad-gītā was taught to him, how to become violent, and this rascal said that in the Bhagavad-gītā there is nonviolence. It is not false? So a man preaching falsehood, is he a gentleman? Or he is a right man?
Paramahaṁsa: No.
Prabhupāda: So that is his position. Either he is a foolish rascal or he is not a gentleman, falsely preaching Bhagavad-gītā. That is his position. If you do not know a subject matter, why do you talk about it? Either you mislead or cheat or you are a foolish, you have no science. Similarly, here is a tape recorder, I do not know how the machine is working. If I talk about it authoritatively is it not my foolishness? I can talk about Bhagavad-gītā or something else, but that does mean I know everything about this machine? But he did it like this. He was dealing in politics, and he took up as a mahātmā, a religious man. That was his cheating.
Paramahaṁsa: So because people are so much in darkness about religion, therefore they say...
Prabhupāda: Anyone who takes milk... Everyone takes milk. The cow is the mother. Mother gives milk. And mother, when she cannot supply milk, mother should be cut up. Is that a very good philosophy? Is it human philosophy? What is the answer? But if you say that somebody wants to, say in your country majority they want to eat meat. So, if you put that argument, then you can eat some lower animals. You can eat the pigs. You are eating also, pigs. Not in a massive scale. Massive scale—if you are Christian you should follow your religious scripture: "Thou shall not kill!" This should be the principle. But if you are a rākṣasa, if you want to eat meat, then at least don't kill the cows. You can eat other, insignificant animals. You are eating also. You are eating everything. Except the moving cars, you are eating all the moving animals. The car also moves, but you cannot eat. Otherwise you are killing everything. You have become so civilized rascal that your business is to kill other animals and eat. You are so civilized. You are still in the crude form of human being, just like in the jungles, the aborigines, the Africans, they do not know how to develop civilization—crude methods, eating the animals. That also, they are not so uncivilized that they keep slaughterhouses. You are so uncivilized that you are keeping slaughterhouses, regularly. These Africans and other jungle people they eat meat, but they directly kill. They have no such civilization as to maintain a slaughterhouse. The tigers eat meat, but they do not keep a slaughterhouse. And you are civilized. You are keeping slaughterhouse. Why should you keep? The government shouldn't allow you to keep slaughterhouses. If anyone wants to eat meat, let them eat like tigers and others. Individually, kill one animal—a lower animal, not cows. This should be the government law. You can kill one insignificant animal, like pigs or goats. It has not very much use. You kill it in your home, before your children and family, and eat. THe government may not have any objection. But why should you maintain slaughterhouses? So the agriculturist and the mercantile men, they should produce enough food, give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, sell it. Where there is not enough food grain produced you can make business.
Prabhupāda: Rahu planet orbit is in between moon and sun. So when it comes in between moon and sun there is eclipse. At night it is eclipse in the moon, and daytime it is eclipse in the sun.
Amogha: They used to think that because there is overpopulation we will go to another planet and then begin living there.
Prabhupāda: No question of overpopulation. There are so many land. You do not know how to live. There is no question of overpopulation. You want to live like cats and dogs. Therefore you fight; there is scarcity. If you live properly, there is no question of scarcity. (break) Otherwise it is perfect. Everything is perfect. There is no question of inconvenience. You live according to the direction of Bhagavad-gītā; there is no question of scarcity, inconvenience, overpopulation. Everything is made.
Amogha: People just take it for granted that...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Amogha: Due to the propaganda, people take it for granted, "Yes, there is overpopulation. Yes, there is lack of food. There is starvation, this and that."
Prabhupāda: Because they cannot manage, so they give some other cause.
Amogha: Yeah. They blame it on nature.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Amogha: But they don't know that nature's arrangement is perfect.
Prabhupāda: But because they are all rascals. Therefore we say all rascals. They may think like that, but our conclusion is anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a rascal. He may be my teacher or father or anyone. He is a rascal. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. "One who cannot save me from the impending danger of birth, death, old age, and disease, he is not my father, he is not my teacher, he is not my guru, he is not my kinsman, he is not my wife, he is not my husband." So many list. So who has got this knowledge, how to save one from the cycle of birth, death, and old age? It is only we, Kṛṣṇa conscious people. We are teaching. Stop your this cycle of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. Come to eternal life and blissful life. So we are the only friends. All are enemies even in the shape of friend or father or teacher-enemies. They do not know the art.
What they will do? Suppose if you have got a very good father. If he does not know how to stop your gliding down to accept a dog's life, then what does he do simply by giving some food? And making a fatty dog?
Amogha: But if what you say is true, why don't more people know about it? There are so many teachers. There are spiritual teachers and...
Prabhupāda: They will not know. That... These rascals say, "No, it will not be accepted." Just like yesterday they came, all the psychiatrists. As soon as we prescribed that "This is the prescription," they said, "Oh, it is impractical." I say that "Send your patients here. We shall make him instantly drugless." They will not accept it. "Oh, why not at home?" At home? And he will remain with the drug addict, and he will become drugless. Is it possible? The surrounding men, all drug addicts, and he will become drugless. How it is possible?
Prabhupāda: The big animal eats the small animal. But the big animal, because he's big, does it mean that he's not animal? He's also animal. The tiger eats a dog. Does that mean the tiger is not animal? The dog is animal, the tiger is also. Animal, he is god who knows how to live without these animals—that is human life. So, why shall I eat animals? I shall eat fruits, I shall eat vegetables, I shall eat nice food grains, I shall drink milk. That is human. Why shall I eat animals' blood and flesh? "No, it is very tasteful." (laughter) So what is the difference between you and dog?
Amogha: They don't know how to cook, the dogs.
Prabhupāda: Well, nature has made them like that. The human beings, they can utilize the land, they can produce so many nice foodstuffs. That is human society. What is this society? They are living in big, big skyscraper building, and for their food the slaughterhouse killing, and they are eating. Is that human civilization? All third class, fourth class men.
Amogha: If they would only listen, they will be defenseless, but they don't listen much.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they go away, "My time is over." (laughs)
Amogha: Yes. "I am busy. I must go."
Prabhupāda: His energy is over. Not time is over, but his energy is over. He see that "We cannot argue with this man."
Śrutakīrti: He'll not give us a chance. (break) (speaking to another devotee) Wouldn't it be better if you make his breakfast?
Devotee: Certainly.
Director: What can you do if society wants it? Society wants it that way.
Prabhupāda: Society... that's like your child wants to go to hell. But it is not the duty of the father to allow him to go to hell. Society want... Because the society does not know, the government does not know how to uplift the position of the human being. They do not know it. They know that the animals and we are the same. They simply loiter naked, and we are nicely dressed, that's all. Finished civilization. I remain animal, but my advancement is because I am very nicely dressed. That is the standard now. But the Vedic civilization is not. The animal must change the consciousness. He must be trained up a human being. Just that is... You say.
Devotee:
- śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ
- kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca
- jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ
- brahma-karma svabhāva-jam
- (BG 18.42)
"Translation: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."
Prabhupāda: Yes, the British allowed. British, very carefully, because they directly did not put hands on their culture. But underground. And when they are now trained up, now they are openly doing. But the training was by the Britishers. In gentleman's society there must be drinking. This was the introduction.
Director: But in Indian society, they forbid it.
Prabhupāda: Indian society, the did not know how to drink tea even. In our childhood we have seen that Britishers started tea garden. There was no tea plants before Britishers. The Britishers saw the labor is very cheap, and they want to do business, they started. Just like they are doing in Africa. So many gardens, coffee and tea. So they started, and the tea was transferred to be sold in America. They were after business. So the... Now, so much tea, who will consume? The government started a tea sets committee. All the tea garden holders they would pay government. And road to road, street to street, their business was canvassing, preparing tea, very nice, palatable tea, and they advertising if you drink tea, then you will not feel very much hungry, and your malaria will go away and so on, so on. And people began to drink tea. Nice cup. I have seen it. Now they have got a taste. Now gradually now a sweeper also, early in the morning, is waiting in the tea shop to get a cup of tea.
Prabhupāda: Not whole. We don't...
Director: Then we would be, then social welfare would mean something different.
Prabhupāda: Now, just like we are proposing here. I am not proposing—Kṛṣṇa says—that one must be peaceful. So how to become peaceful? If his mind is always disturbed, how he can become peaceful?
Director: You're quite right.
Prabhupāda: So that is the secret of success. You want to make the people peaceful, but you do not know how to make him peaceful. So therefore you have to adopt this...
Director: Yes, a competitive society.
Prabhupāda: We say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, eat here sumptuously, live here comfortably, and you become peaceful. It is guaranteed. If anyone, even a madman, agrees to these three principles, that let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, take whatever nice foodstuff we prepare, take, and live peacefully, he will be peaceful.
Director: What's your answer that such a small percentage of the population, tiny percentage of the population, accept the philosophy that...
Prabhupāda: Tiny percentage. Just like there are so many stars in the sky, and there is one moon. In percentage the moon is nothing. If we take percentage of the stars, the moon is nothing. But moon is important than all the nonsense stars. (laughter) But if you take percentage, he has no percentage vote. But because he is moon, he is important than all these rascal stars. This is the example. What is the use of taking percentage of the stars in the presence of moon? Let there be one moon, that is sufficient. There is no question of percentage. One ideal man. Just like in Christian world, one ideal Lord Jesus Christ.
Prabhupāda: Sex life we are not stopping. But sex life allowed only to the gṛhasthas, householder, restricted. Not illicit sex. We are not stopping sex life. Sex life is required. But under rules. And if you enjoy illicit sex, then the whole society is spoiled. You make the innocent girls spoiled. And they have no other business than prostitution. That means you put the society into chaotic condition. The young girls they become cheap, you enjoy, then you become irresponsible. You have no family encumbrances, and you do not know how to maintain the family. That is the position. What is this welfare? Because the young boys enjoy the young girls and they get children, the government has to support.
Devotee: That's the cause of this whole problem.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the welfare department is for that purpose only.
Devotee: And he's the head of the department.
Prabhupāda: He also does the same thing. He does not know how to cure it.
Devotee: He said that "I could not live without illicit sex life."
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Siddha-svarūpa: It's an easy thing to study, simple.
Prabhupāda: Why these devotee, they have given up intoxication? Apart from other items, the government, especially in U.S.A., they are spending millions of dollars to stop this intoxication, L.S.D. So why they have failed? And why Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has become successful? What is the psychology?
Siddha-svarūpa: It seems that these people don't know how to be simple.
Prabhupāda: Well, they no spiritual information. That is the... Therefore the first education is to understand what is spirit. Then spiritual knowledge is... They do not know what is spirit. (break) ...imāni bhūtāni bhavanti. That is spirit, the original source of everything. This body, original source is the spirit. As soon as the spirit is not there, the body will not grow. They are seeing actually. Therefore the original source is the spirit. Why the dead child does not grow? Or dead young man does not grow? They have not studied still, what is the cause? If it is chemical, then inject some chemical, if you know it, and make it grow. Is there any... Why they cannot do it? Why do they say it is chemical? Chemical you have got in your possession. So inject the dead child and it will grow, then it is correct. And where is that? Simply bogus propaganda. And we have to accept it? Either they must say that "Yes, it is chemical, but we did not find that chemical."
Siddha-svarūpa: So they have to admit their failure.
Devotee (1): Yes, we have jackfruit. Big fruit.
Bali-mardana: They do not know how to eat it mostly.
Prabhupāda: Bring. I shall show you. (laughter) Yes.
Bali-mardana: I have seen them selling sometime in private market, but I don't know if we can get it in the public market.
Devotee (1): I've never seen it in a public market.
Bali-mardana: They do... (break) ...sell it. (break)
Prabhupāda: You can have some jackfruit tree.
Devotee (1): On the land, on the property. Okay.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (break) ...nutritive and very sweet.
Devotee (1): Very sweet.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. When it is ripe, it is very sweet. And when it is not ripe, it is called "vegetable meat."
Devotee: "Tree goat."
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Therefore it is said that without becoming a brāhmaṇa, nobody should touch Vedas. That is a... Without becoming brāhmaṇa...
- janmana jāyate śūdraḥ
- saṅskarād bhaved dvijaḥ
- veda-pathad bhaved vipro
- brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ
These are the different stages. Everyone is born śūdra. Śūdra means the life of lamentation. He does something and laments. This is śūdra. He does not know how to perform, but by whims he does something and laments later on. This is śūdra. And brāhmaṇa means na śocati na kāṅkṣati. He never laments, neither hankers. That is brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). Find out this verse, brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati.
Jayatīrtha: 18.54. I should read?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: When you can give life. There is sometimes cow sacrifice yajña. The cow sacrifice yajña means an old cow, he is sacrificed in the fire, and by Vedic hymns he is given again new life. To test the potency of the Vedic mantra, an old cow is sacrificed and by mantra he is given again new life. Not for killing and eating. That was discussed between Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Chand Kazi, Mohammedan magistrate. Those who have read Caitanya-caritāmṛta will find. So the Kazi was challenged by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "You are killing cow and bulls. What is your religion? You are killing your father and mother." Then, he also was learned man, he said it that "In your Vedas the cow sacrifice yajña is there." Then He explained, "This sacrifice is not for eating. It is giving a new life. To test the Vedic mantra." That is discussed in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. That is a different case. For meat-eating a cow should not be killed. This is not very good civilization. If you are..., you must eat meat, then you can kill other animals. They, those who are the kṣatriyas, they were sometimes going to the forest, killing the deer. They are allowed. Because they have to learn how to kill. So by killing animals, they used to practice. Just like doctors, medical practitioners, they first of all ply their knife on the dead body and find out where are the nerves, where are the..., not a living man. When they are fully practiced, then they are allowed to practice surgical operation. Similarly, kṣatriyas are meant for sometimes killing. Just like Arjuna, he's a kṣatriya. So Kṛṣṇa is criticizing him that "You are a kṣatriya. You have learned how to kill, and now you are hesitating? What is the nonsense?" So kṣatriyas are taught. So they have to rule over. So if required, the demons and the culprit, should immediately cut off his head, duty of the government. So all of a sudden you cannot do that. Just like in your country a young man, he has never learned how to kill and he is drawn in the draft board, "Come on. Go and kill." What he will do? He will hesitate. This is not perfect system. If you want a kṣatriya, you must train them. You must train a class of men as brāhmaṇas. You must train a class of men as kṣatriya and a class of men as agriculturist and cow protection, and balance are workers. That is cātur-varṇyam: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But the kṣatriya or the president or the secretary, they are sitting very comfortably at our home and some poor young men—"Come on. Go and fight." What is this? What they will fight? They will die there, that's all. If he does not know how to fight, that energy is lacking, what he will do there?
Prabhupāda: That's good. That's good. If you can mesmerize, that will... Now Dr. Judah has admitted that you can mesmerize the drug-addicted hippies and engage them in understanding Kṛṣṇa, is a great achievement. (laughter) Yes.
Dr. Wolfe: That's not mesmerization, of course.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Dr. Judah has admitted. So if mesmerization is for good, why not accept it? If it is for bad, then it is another thing. If it is doing good, why not accept it? Hmm? What do you think, professor?
Dr. Pore: I don't know how to react. I think I agree with you. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: If it is good... Everything good should be accepted.
Dr. Pore: One problem... You see, I keep wondering how you're so sure you know what good is, particularly when it comes to war. I would be a little more worried I think that...
Prabhupāda: What is that war?
Dr. Pore: Well, when you were telling that sometimes war is necessary. I should think that it's important to know how to decide when...
Prabhupāda: No, no, necessary means you cannot expect in this material world all saintly persons. There are bad elements. So if a bad elements comes to attack you, is it not your duty to fight and protect?
Dr. Pore: It just may be, though, that mine are the bad elements, and I keep thinking that other people are the bad elements.
Brahmatīrtha: That's all they do. He was amazed that they have so much sex life, mosquitoes. So then the scientist he was lamenting. He was thinking, "Oh, these mosquitoes, they probably do not enjoy the sex life." And he sounded as if he wished he was a mosquito to find out.
Prabhupāda: Yes, mosquito, flies, I have seen. Even the sparrows. Sex life is the center of happiness in this material world. In all forms of life. That is the only.
Brahmānanda: They think that sex life for humans is the best, is the better sex life, that the animals, they really don't know how to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. If you take some palatable thing in different pot, does it mean the taste changes? You take some juice in the golden pot or iron pot. Does it mean the taste of the juice is changed on account of golden pot? That is another foolishness. Taste is the same, either you drink it in golden pot or iron pot.
Kuruśreṣṭha: Bhāgavatam says, "Unless a person is influenced by māyā, how could he do such a thing?"
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say that whatever you are doing under the influence of māyā, it is suffering. It is not enjoyment. (break) This way? (break)
Kuruśreṣṭha: In Kṛṣṇaloka are there asses?
Prabhupāda: Yes, maybe. But they are not these asses. Kṛṣṇa... I don't... the cowherds boys, they are keeping only cows. I never saw any ass or goat.
Satsvarūpa: They killed all those asses. They killed Dhenukāsura and all those...
Lt. Mozee: Well, there are...
Prabhupāda: No civil state wants this criminality. That's a fact. But they do not know how to stop it. That we can suggest. We are good advisor. Now, the government is the executor. So if they take our advice and execute it, then things will be done nicely.
Lt. Mozee: There are countless numbers in the United States of large facilities of the Christian faith, and, like you, they give the refreshment of the holy communion. Why does this not work? Why is this not cleansing the heart?
Prabhupāda: The answer is... Then we come to the details. So you say, "Christian," and I find to find out a Christian. I find difficulty to find out one Christian. I must frankly say, because the so-called Christians, they do not abide by the Bible's order that in the Christian's Bible it is said, "Thou shall not kill." and where is a Christian who does not kill? So this can be effective only persons who are practicing religion. So these persons, they are trained to practice. So their chanting of the holy name of God and others' are different. (break) It is not simply a rubber stamp position. It must be practiced, realized. This chanting of holy name by our men who are trained up and the same chanting by others will be different. Of course, if you... (break) ...your Hindu principle. That is secular state, not to remain callous: "Whatever you like you can do. We have no concern to see." That is not government's duty.
Prabhupāda: No.
Mrs. Wax: None of them are first-class people is what you're saying.
Prabhupāda: They are politician. That also... All of them are fourth-class men. The fighting is between two section of fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class man. Although the Bhagavad-gītā is there, they do not know, neither do they care. Just like I was telling. When we propose that "No illicit sex, no meat eating," they laugh, "Hah! What is that?" But when they are put into trouble they say, "What to do?" When there is crime they say, "What to do?" They do not know how to tackle the situation because they are all third-class, fourth-class men. They do not know. They become disappointed.
Mrs. Wax: I realize that we're all considered spirit souls. But can a woman be first-class if she...
Prabhupāda: Anyone can become first-class. Woman can become first-class if she is chaste and very much attached to husband. And if the husband is first-class, she becomes first-class. Because woman's duty is to follow husband. So if the husband is first-class, the wife is first-class, if she sticks to the husband.
Mrs. Wax: But she can never be first-class unless she has a first class husband.
Prabhupāda: No, she is first class by following faithfully husband. And if the husband is first-class, then woman is first-class.
Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?
Prabhupāda: These things are there. But who is trying to understand it? At least all our Indians, those who are born in India, wherefrom Bhagavad-gītā has come out, at least they should understand. But they are not understanding. They are interpreting Bhagavad-gītā in their own way. This is the difficulty. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and people are taking advantage of that. So first-class man, he knows what is Bhagavad-gītā and tries to apply the teachings in practical life. Then you become first-class. In the Bhagavad-gītā you will find first-class eating, first-class life, second-class eating, second-class life, third-class... Everything is there. So people should be trained up. Economic question? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). You produce food grain, anna, sufficiently. So there is immense land still. Say, in America, so much land is without any utilization, in Africa, in Australia. They are not being properly utilized. People are complaining, "Overpopulation." Now countries which are overpopulated, they are not allowed to utilize the vacant land, neither people are being trained how to produce food grain. They are being trained up, technology, to produce motor tire. And nobody is interested to produce food grain. So without taking food grains, they are killing animals, and they are eating, short cut. They do not know killing of animals is sinful activity. This is the... Man is advanced; we can grow food. This killing of animals is for the non-civilized society. They cannot... They do not know how to grow food. They were killing animals. When man is advanced in his knowledge and education, why they should kill? Especially in America, we see so many nice foodstuffs. Fruits, grains, milk. And from milk, you can get hundreds of nice preparations, all nutritious. In our New Vrindaban we are doing that—rabri, pera, burfi. The other farmers are surprised that from milk such nice preparation can be prepared. So instead of teaching them—you Indian, you know how to utilize milk and prepare so many nice preparation,—you are learning how to eat meat. Why?
Prabhupāda: Ah, public relation. So convince them to..., the Americans should take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the shoulder, and because the Americans are blind, we shall give them direction on the shoulder, "Go this way. Go this way." So blind and the lame man combined together will perform a great task. (break) ...blindly, simply accumulating money, but they do not know how to utilize the money. They should take direction, authorized direction from us, and then it will be very nice. (break) ...not these concocted "isms." This "ism," that "ism," that "ism." Because it is, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. These all rascals are blind. They do not know how to direct. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). They are trying to adjust the world affairs blindly. They do not know. So let us combine. Let them come forward, take direction from us. After all, your money, my money, your intelligence, my intelligence—everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ (BG 15.15). Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence. We must agree to take His good advice. Early morning till night, we are always thinking, "How people will be happy by Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" And they are coming here for rowing boat. You see? How blind they are! The human life, so intelligent life, and they are utilizing for rowing boat. How blind they are! Not a single moment to be wasted and they are simply finding out, "How to waste time?" (break) ...is "Crime, what to do?" "Hippies, what to do?" "Problems, what to do?" Why "What to do?" Here is a direction. Do like this." "No, sir, that I will not do." (break) ...to take photo.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Viśakha, take photo. (break)
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. I have already written that. I was thinking that "What shall I do here? I have come here. As soon as I shall impose these four principles they will say, 'Go home.' " But I took that risk. I never said anything palatable. Against their activities, "You don't do this, don't do this." (break)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...compromised at all, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No, what is the use of compromise if there is no good result?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Someone who compromises, he actually wants followers.
Prabhupāda: That is not good. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu decried, na dhanaṁ na janam, "I don't want these followers." What is the use of follower if he does not follow? (break) ...idam. Everything is sufficient, complete. Why they are embarrassed with incompleteness? Everyone is trying to adjust incompleteness, but the Vedic information, "Everything is complete." That means lacking knowledge. The car is complete. One who does not know to drive, he will find it incomplete, "Where to push on, this way, that way." He does not know how to drive the car. (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes, that I explained.
Brahmānanda: Yes. Of raising the child. Therefore they create some...
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the reason? They know there are so many troubles. To avoid the troubles, "Kill this." That's all. So to save trouble, people are prepared to kill child even.
Brahmānanda: And that's considered advancement, in modern life, to remove trouble. The whole life is conveniences, remove trouble. That shows they will go to any extent.
Prabhupāda: So trouble that is, atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛtti, how to mitigate or finish all trouble, that they do not know. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). So long you will get this body, you will have trouble. But that they do not know, how to stop getting another body. So trouble is not mitigated in that way. You increase your entanglement, become sinful. You again take another body to suffer this sinful reaction. (end)
Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago
Prabhupāda: That you can see practically. They are not drunkards, they are not meat-eaters. From physiological point of view, they are very clean. They will never be attacked with so many diseases. Then they do not eat meat, means that is the most sinful, to kill others for the satisfaction of the tongue. God has given to the human society so many things to eat: nice fruits, nice flowers, nice grains, first-class milk. And from milk, you can prepare hundreds of nutritious foods. But they do not know the art. They are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse and eating meat. No discrimination. That means they are not even civilized. When man is not civilized, he kills one animal and eats because he does not know how to grow food. Just like we have got one farm land, in New Vrindaban. So we are preparing so first-class preparation from milk, the neighbours they come, they are astonished that from milk such nice preparation can be done, hundreds. So that means they are not even civilized, how to prepare nutritious food from milk. Milk-accepting that cow flesh and blood is very nutritious, that we also admit—but a civilized man utilizes the blood and meat in a different way. The milk is nothing but blood. But it is transformed into milk. And again, from milk you make so many things. You make yogurt, you make curd, you make ghee, so many things. And combination of these milk products with grains, with fruits and vegetables, you make similar hundreds of preparation. So this is civilized life, not that directly kill one animal and eat. That is uncivilized life. You take the-accepting that cow's flesh and blood is very nutritious—you take it in a civilized way. Why you should kill? It is innocent animal. Is simply eating grass given by God and supplying milk. And from milk you can live. And the gratefulness is that cut his throat? Is that civilization? What do you say?
Prabhupāda: No, first of all you answer my question. If he says contradictory things, is he not a rascal?
Sandy Nixon: Well, he's contradicting himself.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is a rascal. He does not know how to defend him.
Sandy Nixon: Can the Vedas be taken symbolically as well as literally?
Prabhupāda: As it is. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, not symbolically.
Sandy Nixon: Are you attempting to revive... I feel like asking this question two different ways. First I'll ask it one way which is, in a sense, incorrect. Maybe I'll just ask it this way and just get your answer. Are you attempting to revive in the West the awareness... Are you attempting to revive the ancient Indian caste system in the West?
Prabhupāda: Where do you find we are reviving caste system? Where do you find? First of all let me know. Why you are asking this question? If you have seen that we are trying to introduce the Indian caste system, then you say. But if there is no such attempt, why you are asking this question?
Sandy Nixon: Well, because a lot of people are interested, and...
Prabhupāda: No, no, lot of people, you are also one of them. So where do you find that we are trying to introduce caste system? First of all find out where is the attempt. Then you ask question. Otherwise it is irrelevant question.
Sandy Nixon: The Gītā mentions the caste system.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are publicly suiciding, and others are silently suiciding. The suiciding policy is going on. Somebody manifests; somebody does not manifest. That's all. If the human life is wasted for sense gratification, that is suicidal. Because you got the opportunity of enlightenment and you live like dogs and cats, this is suicide. (break) This, what is called, hydrogen bomb manufacturer, he is thinking that he is successful in his life by discovering this hydrogen bomb. but he does not know how to save him from death. So it is suicidal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are simply expert at accelerating death.
Prabhupāda: Whatever he has done, so he could not save him. He cannot save him from death. So what is the use of this scientific knowledge? If the dog is also going to die and he is also going to die, so where is the difference of his scientific knowledge?
Paramahaṁsa: Coincidentally, the original purpose of the hydrogen bomb was to prevent death, to end the Second World War as soon as possible.
Prabhupāda: How they can prevent? That he does not know, how to prevent. He can accelerate. That's all. (break) ...puts before us, "Here is your problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Solve it." Where is that scientist? They avoid the real problem and take some childish problem. (break) ...not any hidden problem. It is the open problem. Kṛṣṇa puts it: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, The real seer will see to these problems. There is no answer or solution of these problems. Where is the solution of these problems? Where is the biochemist or the psychologist or the atom bombist?
Prabhupāda: Billion. So zero is there, and one is there. You add together. Then the value will increase. Otherwise you remain zero. And because the so much material opulence is zero, therefore the hippies are disappointed. It is zero. What they will do with the zero?
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, our parents in America teach us that we ought to be doing good things for other people. Should we be engaged for our fellow people?
Prabhupāda: But that you do not know, how to do good to the people. Just like a diseased man. The doctor has ordered that he should starve. But if you go in the hospital and you take sympathy with the starving patient, "Oh, you are starving for the last three days," if you give to him some food without the permission of the physician, then you will be punished. So he may think that "Oh, here is a starving man. I must give him some food." But you are liable to be punished. So first of all learn how to do good to others. So that is described here. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido (SB 1.5.18). To bring him to the knowledge of self-realization, that is good. If you can distribute knowledge to bring him back to his consciousness, original consciousness, that is real welfare activity. Otherwise, if you manufacture something that "This man is starving: let me give him some food," it may be wrongly done, and you are liable to be punished. So first of all, you must learn what is actually good to the human society. Then, if we do that, that is good. In ignorance, if we do it, then we may be liable to be punished. Besides that, your thought is imperfect. Just like you try to give food to some living being, but other living being you send to the slaughterhouse. You do not consider. You put your philosophy, that "The animal has no soul. They are like dead matter," but that is not the fact. The animals also have got soul, and the human being, he has got also soul. The ant has got also soul. Everyone has got. Every living being has got soul. Why you are inclined to do good to the human society? What is the reason? Why not to the animals?
Prabhupāda: Take the idea of civilization from Kṛṣṇa. That is perfect civilization. The perfect civilization, Kṛṣṇa has giving idea, there must be first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class \en. And less than fourth-class, fifth-class. So, first-class man is described, śamo damaḥ tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam, these are the qualifications, second-class these are the qualifications, third-class, fourth-class. So there are different varieties of men, so divide them according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole human society will be... There are four division of your body—the head division, the arm division, the belly division, the leg division. If you engage the head for walking, that is mistake, and if you engage the leg for thinking, that is mistake. Similarly, there are different types of men, combine together, and it will be nice body, the leg will walk, the hand will protect, the head will give instruction, and the belly will get energy by eating food. Those divisions are required. Not that everyone is all. No, there must be division of labor. So that is described, how to make civilization perfect, who is going to hear and take it. Cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). If you can adjust things, you can utilize things, then everything will be useful. And if you do not know how to utilize things, then everything will be useless. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā and make everything useful. Then the human society will be perfect. Otherwise you'll go on manufacturing ideas, you'll never be successful. Because nature's law is working, you cannot interfere with the nature's law. That is not possible. You may think yourself very much advanced in science, but nature's law, you cannot interfere. Just like now there is movement, man and woman, equal.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they manufacture, hand, hand in the sugar cane, two men. Even we can prepare hand machine by cutting the wood. They do that. We are not against machine. You can utilize machine. But we should not allow others unemployed and use machine. This should be point. You can use. Use machine, that's good, but not at the risk of keeping others unemployed. This should be noted. First thing is that everyone should be employed. If you have got many men, then why should you engage machine. These rascals, they do not know. They're taking machine and keeping so many men unemployed. And the welfare department is paying them. They do not know how to organize society. And therefore hippies are coming out. Crime, criminals are coming out. (indistinct) The government is paying for becoming criminals and hippies and prostitutes. And how you can be happy, a society full of prostitutes, hippies, and criminals.
Brahmānanda: In New York City they now have one million people who are receiving welfare.
Prabhupāda: And all criminals.
Brahmānanda: Yes. All criminals, prostitutes, and hippies.
Prabhupāda: Because the government is paying for that, and they are now thinking that "What to do about crime?" This is rascaldom. You act in such a way, then repent later on.
Brahmānanda: There was one boy from Sweden, he was our devotee. And then he fell into māyā. He returned to Sweden. Now he's getting from the government fifty dollars a week. So he's using that money to buy drugs. So now he's completely trapped.
Prabhupāda: Cobbler is less than śūdra. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare... He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he'll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class... Not that "Professor such-and-such," and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a brāhmaṇa—teacher means brāhmaṇa—and eating meat-Oh, horrible! Śyāmasundara? So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I'll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole... Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world... And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live... Andhā yathāndhair... They are blind, and they are leading... Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch. So it is the duty. There is... Caitanya has explained, para-upakāra. Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible... This is human life. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness. It is not a profession: "Now, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is my profession. I'm getting very easily food and shelter." Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood. Not like that. It is for para-upakāra, actually benefiting the others. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased: "Oh, he is trying." 'Cause Kṛṣṇa personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Kṛṣṇa will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I'll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time. Similarly, if Kṛṣṇa sees that you are, on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, you are trying to save these rascals, then He'll be very (indistinct) with you. They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they're all going to hell.
Mādhavānanda: It's mismanagement.
Ādi-keśava: Even they are saying that, that we don't know how to, we're not teaching anything practical.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Ādi-keśava: Even sometimes they are saying we're not teaching anything practical.
Prabhupāda: What does he mean by practical?
Ādi-keśava: Practical? They're thinking we don't know how to operate in the material world.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Ādi-keśava: They're thinking we don't know how to manage things.
Prabhupāda: We are not managing things? Hm? Brahmānanda? You are not managing?
Brahmānanda: We manage all day long. (laughing)
Ādi-keśava: Even my father is a big businessman. He said to me, "Who is this person that taught you to manage like this?" He said, "I wish I could get him to teach all my men."
Prabhupāda: So why don't you ask your father to join for management? Eh?
Prabhupāda: How you'll do? You say you have no money. How you'll do it? Whole money is going to the stomach. All ghee, all money, everything. And becoming sick and sleepy. Whole day and night sleep. I do not know when it will be finished. What is the use of starting another Gurukula? Whatever you have taken, that is not yet finished. All savvy(?). And your report is, "Everything is all right." Everything is all right except nothing is finished. So I do not know how to do. There was shops made, and why it is closed again?
Dhanañjaya: Because Mr. Sharapi(?) came.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let him go to the court. We shall see.
Dhanañjaya: Now he's agreed.
Prabhupāda: Then now again break; again make shop. This is going on. There was no expenditure to make the shop, and again closing, there was expenditure. So money is spent like this—"Make it and break it." That is American way.
Dhanañjaya: There is no cement. It is all mud, just muddy.
Prabhupāda: That is explanation. (Hindi)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because it happened on his land, he was very much against it, but those shops...
Prabhupāda: Just see. And here even by this sugarcane, what is called? Upper part? This part?
Indian man (1): We call it ag.(?)
Prabhupāda: Ag, yes. You can maintain thousand of cows.
Indian man (1): But that's actually best food, you know. In Punjab they use that. They store it for a year.
Prabhupāda: But you do not know how to be happy.
Indian man (1): Even this land, here they are producing sugarcane. So that is strong for wheat. They can grow plenty of wheat.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everything can be grown.
Cyavana: If sugarcane will grow, anything will grow. It's very fertile.
Indian man (1): Because they don't want to do anything, they simply plant the sugarcane and then they want rest for few months, simply getting money and taking and drinking.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (1): No work. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...getting rice, wheat from outside, they can charge any price because the price of grain is increasing.
Indian man (1): Any time, they can stop it.
Prabhupāda: You can stop it. (end)
Prabhupāda: An animal.
Cyavana: It's called an exoskeleton because it's on the outside instead of the inside. We have a skeleton inside the skin, but their skeleton is on the outside of the skin, and the flesh is within.
Prabhupāda: So they trim the coconuts?
Cyavana: They pull them down, yes.
Indian man 3: They don't know how to cut. They cut with sticks.
Harikeśa: Do they cut them down before they're grown?
Cyavana: No, they let them ripen.
Harikeśa: Then they eat them.
Brahmānanda: The Minister for Youth was there last night.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Cyavana: When you were speaking with those two boys last night, that was the Minister of Youth who was sitting with the High Commissioner. He was appreciating that they were coming to challenge, that they were understanding. They cannot understand their own so-called culture. They have not been able to get the young people here to adopt it. Instead they are trying to imitate the West.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Blind leading the blind.
Prabhupāda: No, no. So long it is not available, we must take the best advantage. That is another thing. But gradually we shall develop a society that all these unnecessary rubbish things should be rejected. That is the idea. Or those who are interested, let them manufacture car; we take advantage. We don't bother ourself how to manufacture car. Ajāgara-vṛtti. Ajāgara-vṛtti, the idea is... Ajāgara means the snake. So a mouse makes a hole in the field to live very peacefully. So, and he enters the hole, and a snake gets the information and he comes, enters the hole. He eats the snake... The snake eats the mouse and lives peacefully. So let this rascal manufacture motorcar. When we require, we take from them and ride away. We are not going to manufacture. There will be some rascals. Let them do that, mouse. We enter as snake. (laughter) That's all. We are doing that. We are doing that. I did not manufacture this house, but somebody, some mouse, has done. (laughter) And we have entered it, that's all. That's all. This is going on all over the world. You know George Harrison? He has earned money with so great hard labor, and he has given us a house in London, fifty-five lakhs' worth. Another boy, Alfred Ford, he's the great grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. He has given. He is giving still money. He is prepared with all his money. So those who are after money, material things, we have to induce them that "Spend for me," that's all, and let him earn. So far we are concerned, we shall live very simple life, simply in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not go to construct big, big house. He simply constructs his character, and the other kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they offer him, "Please come here and sit down." Therefore the division is... One who is unable to become a brāhmaṇa, let him become kṣatriya. If he cannot become kṣatriya, let him become a vaiśya. Otherwise let him remain a śūdra. But there should be ideal class. So we are trying to create an ideal society of brāhmaṇas. Then people will be benefited. And if everyone is śūdra, rascal, then what people will be benefited? They do not know how to live. The brāhmaṇas will give idea, "Live like this. You will be happy."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Imported.
Prabhupāda: In India it was unknown. They did not know. In our childhood we have seen that they did not know how to drink tea even.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tea?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody would drink tea, no family. We have seen it. And for drinking, for drinking tea, drinking wine, regular propaganda was done. There was a tea assess(?) (tea sets?) committee. Men these foreigners, they began to grow tea in India in the beginning for exporting to Europe and America… Later on, they began to pay some tax to the government. That was known as "tea assess(?) committee." The tea assess(?) committee, in order to popularize drinking tea, they used to hold stall, just like here in park and public places, and they would prepare very tasty tea and distribute free.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Free.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And advertise, "If you drink tea, then you will not feel very much hungry. Your health will be improved," and so on, so on. In this way they distribute pamphlet and giving free. Just like we distribute prasādam, they used to distribute very tasteful tea, and people liked it: "Oh, it is very nice." Then they began to drink. Vigorous propaganda. And culturally, in our school days they wrote… One Mr. N. Ghosh, he, bribed by the Britishers, he wrote one book, England's Work in India. So all the, just like Sati rites…
Indian man (1): Otherwise they think that they not economically progressing.
Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that economical progressing? So that means busy fool. Fool, they do not know how to satisfy the economic problem. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) You grow food grains. Then all economic question... But why you are not producing food grains? Why you are producing iron stools and instruments and motor and tire and collecting petrol far away from Arabia? That is... Kṛṣṇa never says that "You do all this nonsense." He said, "Grow food grains." Why don't you do that? That means fools. After all, you have to eat. So you are not busy in growing your food, but you are busy in producing tire tubes, motor cars, stools and instruments. Then how you will get your food? Where is your economic? First economic is, first necessity, you must eat.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But with the tire tubes and nuts and bolts they can make a tractor. And the tractor can help produce food, they think, much faster.
Prabhupāda: No, that is waste of energy. Because you are eating the bulls, therefore you require a tractor. Otherwise you don't kill the bulls. This animal will do the business of tractor.
Devotee (4): It will work.
Prabhupāda: But you want to eat them, so you must find out...
Indian man (1): Some other means.
Prabhupāda: The simple method that everything belongs to God... The king is the representative of God, and he distributes the land amongst the kṣatriyas. Just like knighthood or in Mussulman times, subedat(?), and in Hindu times, the subordinate king. Just like Pāṇḍavas, they were the emperors, and under them there were many hundreds and thousands of kings, states. And everything belongs to God. So why fighting? Take it. It is God's property. We are all sons of God. But there is no culture, Aryan culture. They do not know how to live peacefully and cultivate spiritual culture. They do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśāya ye bahir-artha... (SB 7.5.31). And durāśāya, bad hopes or hopes against hope, they're trying to be happy, bahir-artha, by the external energy, material, most fallen ideas, all foolish theories without any knowledge. Material, that's all. Bahir artha, external energy. Otherwise there is no cause of anxiety or distress. There is enough land. They can produce enough food and live peacefully. They are talking of peace, but they do not know how peace can be achieved. They are hankering after peace, but they do not know how to achieve peace. And that formula is given in the Bhagavad-gītā: Accept God as the proprietor; then there will be peace. Something stolen from the proprietor by some thieves, and when they sit down to take their shares, there will be fight. The property is stolen, and they are sharing. Now, one will say, "Oh, I have worked so hard. You are giving me so little share?" And others will say, "No, no, we have worked equally." Somebody, "No..." In this way there will be fight.
Dr. Patel: They are explaining the truth in their own way. That is the change of theory. But the truth is the same.
Prabhupāda: That is the truth of rascaldom, as soon as you change your position.
Dr. Patel: Theory is rascal, but the truth is never rascal.
Prabhupāda: No, no, truth you do not know. Therefore rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: They do not know how to explain. Truth is there, sir.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Anyway, he does not know. Therefore he is a rascal, either you say this way or that way.
Dr. Patel: Truth is there.
Prabhupāda: No, no, truth is there, but they cannot present the truth rightly. That is rascaldom. Truth is there; that is certain. But they cannot present the truth in right way.
Dr. Patel: You mean they are groping in the dark.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is rascal. How things are happening—every ten years they are changing their theory. And that has been explained by, not by a layman like me. The Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, he has explained. He has concluded Darwin's theory completely wrong. You have read that small booklet?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And he has given reason, quotation, how simply he's speculator.
Mahāṁsa: Also another party of five devotees, they have started on the bullock cart saṅkīrtana, going village to village. But it's very austere. They were... I told them, "You go for two months, come back after two months." But they returned in six days. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Why?
Mahāṁsa: Because first of all, they did not know how to ride the bulls, so the bulls gave a lot of trouble.
Prabhupāda: Then there is no professional driver?
Mahāṁsa: Well, now we are going to hire one driver to take care of the bulls. And secondly, even the axle of the cart was a little defective. Otherwise the program was a great success.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is success. People were coming.
Mahāṁsa: Yes. And one person came to the temple in Hyderabad and met me. He said that "After your devotees had a program in our village, the farmers in the evening they were coming and doing kīrtana instead of just..." Previously they were not doing anything, but now they are coming after farming. In the evening they are collecting and they are doing kīrtana together.
Prabhupāda: Just see how quickly there will be response. Therefore I was insisting, "Go village to village, town to town." Caitanya Mahāprabhu's prediction, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi.
Mahāṁsa: Grāma, yes.
Prabhupāda: So it will never be foiled. Let us now begin village to village.
Harikeśa: That's a really important point that the government takes more and more, and everybody gets poorer and poorer.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The government is also poor because they do not know how to govern. Buddhi yasya balaṁ tasya. If one has got intelligence he has got strength.
Harikeśa: Change of government means getting poorer.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: A change of government...
Prabhupāda: Change of government... Just like they say, a change of theories by the rascals. Change means rascal.
Harikeśa: But as soon as a government changes...
Prabhupāda: Anything change means it is the domain of rascals, pandemonium. Just like in Manu-saṁhitā it is said that, nāsyāṁ svatantratām arhati, women should not be given independence. Once said, that is fact. If you want to change, you suffer. That's all.
Hari-śauri: Any deviation from absolute law means immediately suffering.
Prabhupāda: Bas, immediately you have to suffer. (reads sign on building) DTS, what is this?
Haṁsadūta: German Democratic Republic. German diplomat.
Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) If you want to be learned, then you have to read Bhāgavatam. Vidvāṁś cakre satvata. Vidvāṁ means Vyāsadeva. He compiled Bhāgavatam for the education of these rascals. Na te vidhuḥ svārtha-gatim. The same thing. They do not know what is their self-interest. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi visnu. And another place, anartha. This is anartha. Without knowing the real self-interest, they are engaged in so many so-called duties. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān: "Give up all these duties," but they will not do. Therefore Vyāsadeva says, anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād... These unnecessary engagements cannot be given up, anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). To teach them bhakti yoga... And, anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhoksaje lokasyājānato. These rascals, they do not know it. Lokasya ajānata. Ajānato lokasya. They do not know how to get free from this unwanted situation. But to get them free, vidyā... Vyāsadeva is vidvān, vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Anārthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajanataḥ. Ajanato lokasya, they do not know, Hm? The same thing, a dog, what does he know what is the interest of life? Therefore Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu has advised that because all these rascals are filled up all over the world, "Each one of you become a guru." Yes. So many gurus required. Āmāra ajñāya guru haya tāra ei deśa, wherever you are living, you just try to deliver your family, your neighborhood, your friends. Deliver, tāra. Tāra means deliver. "How can I do it? I am not a guru; I am a common..." "No. You have to become a guru." "How?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa': (CC Madhya 7.128) simply repeat the instruction given by Kṛṣṇa. Then you will become guru.
Dr. Patel: Nothing can act independently.
Prabhupāda: Yes, simply negative is useless. These jñānīs, they simply teach negative-brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. But they do not take to Brahman; they simply take the one side, jagan mithyā. They take the.... Brahmā satyam, take to Brahman...
Dr. Patel: Then the second half they are not taking.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know how to remain in Brahman. No, they do not know; therefore we say rascal. You realize that you are Brahman; now your next business is to stay in Brahman. That they do not know.
Dr. Patel: Behave as Brahman. They don't behave.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Either behave or stay, the same thing. Unless you become fire, you cannot stay in fire.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupāda: So these people, they realize arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). By severe austerity and penances they rise to the Brahman platform, but from there they fall down. Why? Adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ. Because brahmam platform means to be engaged in devotional service. Brahma bhūyāya kalpate. Mām ca yo'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena (BG 14.26). If you want to stay on the Brahmam platform, then you must render service to Kṛṣṇa. And if you simply realize that "I am Brahman," then you'll be misguided by māyā: "Oh, you are the Supreme Lord. You are Bhagavān. What is the use of worshiping another Bhagavān? You are Bhagavān." māyā says it in a different way. māyā says that you are a rascal, but think that you are Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: Ye.... Not dia.... Dialectical means keep spiritualism or materialism. It is dialectic. Two sides there are, the material and the spiritual. These ignorant rascals, cats—and dogslike men, they have no information of the thing which is covered. They're simply dealing with the covering. Therefore their knowledge is imperfect, and they're not successful by so many theses. They do not know the real problem. Who is enjoyer? That they do not know. That enjoyer is covered. And they are talking on the cover. That.... In Bengal, it is a proverb, said, that: Sobraniye tanatan.(?) In the.... I think I was talking on this. In the coconut. The coconut sweet pulp and water is within. And they are struggling with the fibers above the coconut. Coconut.... They have got some information coconut is enjoyable, but where is the enjoyable article is there, that they do not know. They have simply information this body, and the coconut's body is covered with fibers. And they are fighting with the fibers. None of these so-called capitalists or, what is called, Communists, they do not know where is the real substance is. Superficially, they are fighting on the platform of fiber covering. That's all. Sobraniye tanatan,(?) this Bengali word exactly. They're fighting just like dogs. Actually they do not know how to become happy, but one dog is barking upon another dog, and they're fighting, attacking, barking-useless. The dogs and cats, they do not know what is the value of life, and they fight on the covering, same fiber, fight. But here is a chance, human being. Therefore dialectic. Dialectic materialism. You should be materialist; you should not condemn anything, both the inside and outside. The inside pulp of coconut requires the covering outside. Otherwise, it will be spoiled. Crude example. But the real substance is inside, not outside. But these rascals, they have no information of the inside substance. They think that "Here is coconut. Let us try to find out happiness." And they are simply struggling to adjust the fibers. Therefore they have been described as mūḍhaḥ, rascals. Hmmm? What do you think, Haṁsadūta?
| Page Title: | Do not know how to (Conversations 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | MadhuGopaldas, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 18 of Apr, 2013 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=103, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 103 |