Prabhupāda: Without varṇāśrama-dharma there is no civilization. Yes. They are trying to abolish this under the name of "caste system." It is not caste system. Caste system, or whatever you call, there must be these four division. Not four, eight. This is general, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Then, according to the brahminical culture, the spiritual, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. And after sannyāsa, then spiritual life, complete, śuddha-sattva. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you have to establish varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāra. Ācāra. Ācāra. Varṇāśrama ācāra. Yes. Because the aim is... Again we come to the... Just like state affairs going on, but ultimate aim is to keep the government satisfied. Then you'll get everything nicely. Similarly, the supreme government or supreme governor is God. That is your duty, to keep Him satisfied. Then you get all direction, all facilities and life. That is the aim. But these rascals, they do not know what is government or who is the governor. They are doing anything whimsically, and they're punished. Prakṛti is there. Prakṛti is there. Government does not want that you suffer, but you violate the government's law. Therefore you suffer. That these rascals do not understand. They declare, "There is no government." So this is foolishness, ignorance, mūḍha. There is government, he sees, and still he is rascal. He says, "No, no, I don't care for anyone. There is no government." That is atheism; that is hooliganism.
Divisions (Conversations 1976 - 1977)
Expressions researched:
"division"
|"divisional"
|"divisioned"
|"divisions"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: According to time, circumstances. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam: "Always be engaged in your prescribed work." And, at last, He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Now we have to adjust. That is not contradiction. That is suitable to the time and circumstance. Karma is also recommended in the Vedas. Karma-kāṇḍa. There are three divisions: karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kaṇḍa and upāsanā-kāṇḍa. Trayi. Therefore Veda is known as, what is called, trio. The trio word has come from "trayi."
Madhudviṣa: You have also said, regarding that, that Kṛṣṇa gives us the conclusion of the those three processes in the Bhagavad-gītā, that karma is concluded, yat karoṣi yad aśnāsi (BG 9.27), and jñāna is concluded, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19), and yoga is concluded yoginām api sarveṣām (BG 6.47). So is there some conclusive..., like Kṛṣṇa says, concluding, sarva-dharmān parityajya. Is there some conc...?
Prabhupāda: That is the real end. You have to become the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. Either you go through karma or jñāna or yoga, it doesn't matter. The ultimate aim is how to reach Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. (break) Arjuna achieved the favor of Kṛṣṇa by fighting, by killing. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Prabhupāda: "Artistry. But the poem is a symphony in which God is seen in all things. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda is, of course, profoundly sympathetic to the theme. He brings to it a special interpretative insight. Here we have a powerful and persuasive presentation in the bhakti tradition of this dearly beloved poem. The Swami's introduction makes clear at once where he stands as a leading exponent of Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is my actual...
Devotee (1): (break) ...not only have your books there in the New York Public Library, but the head librarian of that Oriental division did the review also.
Prabhupāda: "...government(?) of postgraduate college..." Oh, O.B.L. Kapoor. (break) "It is an exhaustive plan of original Sanskrit text in Devanāgarī, then a translation, English synonym... What practitioner of philosophy cannot but be attracted to this serious student and scholar of Sanskrit language and Hindu religion and philosophy? The viewpoint of a devotee cum scholar has the advantage of making the philosophy meaningful to any practical-minded person."
Devotees: Jaya.
Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this professor calls you "uncompromising." He said that you are "uncompromising."
Prabhupāda: Hm. That is my philosophy. Read it. Read it somebody.
Prabhupāda: India has no, had no such ideas. They are borrowing ideas. India's idea is self-realization. Live very simple life—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas, they are living simple life, becoming very learned scholar, pure character, advanced in spiritual life—one class, ideal. And kṣatriyas, they are supposed to be the king. They distribute the land on nominal taxation, and the vaiśyas utilize the land for cultivation and cow-keeping, and the śūdras, they are engaged as weaver, blacksmith, goldsmith, mean other necessities of life. In this way the whole society is simplified, and the central point is how to become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by cooperation. This is India's civilization. There is no question of industry. Ugra-karma. It has been condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā as ugra-karma, laboring very hard for livelihood. This industry means engage the poor worker class to work very hard, and there is huge profit, and some directors of the capitalists, they take it. And they have one dozen motorcars, palatial building, no work, simply wine and woman, that's all. This is going on. And the others, they are seeing: "There is no classification, neither real brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya. So he is enjoying like that. He has got so many cars. He has got such a nice apartment. Why not me?" There is struggle. This is actual picture. Our Vedic advice is that make life very simple. You must have some means of livelihood. Keep your body and soul together. So according to quality, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), there must be division and then simple life. The real aim is tam abhyarcya, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Everyone is.... Brāhmaṇa is guiding, kṣatriya is ruling, and vaiśya is producing food, and śūdra, they have no brain; they are helping. In this way the society is very peaceful, and everyone is advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is India's civilization. Now, due to this association of the rākṣasas... Even up to Mohammedan time this civilization was being continued. Mohammedan did not touch the Indian culture. Sometimes by, what is called, fanaticism, there was fight. Not like this.
Prabhupāda: Simply by the position: "I am Cardinal," "I am Pope," "I am priest," "I am that." How long it will go on?
Hari-śauri: It's not going on very much longer anyway, there's so many, it's falling apart. There's so many branches, just the fact that there's so many divisions now of Christianity, that this man was speaking about this charismatic movement. Now this is the young people. They're feeling a need for God, so they're trying to express it through another concocted form of Christianity. But that will also be a failure.
Prabhupāda: Let us try honestly, that's all.
Hari-śauri: As long as we can preach very purely, then the effect will be there.
Prabhupāda: So by this time, we shall be in Toronto tomorrow.
Hari-śauri: Yes. 5:45 the plane leaves. So we'll be there by 6;00, 6:40, something like that. They don't have a garden there, though.
Prabhupāda: Time difference the same? No time difference?
Hari-śauri: I don't think so. Oh, we'll have to go through customs though. It's Canada, so we have to travel through customs.
Prabhupāda: We require passport? Visa? You've got?
Prabhupāda: Not looking for. I am talking that anyone can be, I mean to say, elevated to the intellectual platform by training. Not the handicapped. Handicapped, there are special cases. That is another thing.
Kern: But...
Prabhupāda: Generally, everyone is born fourth class. Is to be understood. But by training such people you can make them division, first class, second class, third class.
Scheverman: I think we certainly would have no quarrel with that. I think Father's concern is what is your message for, what is your attitude toward those who are handicapped in our society? How do you respond, how do you treat those?
Prabhupāda: Handicapped.... Suppose your hand is cut. So I cannot bring another hand to join. It is not possible. Suppose your hand is cut. The handicap, now "handicut." So can I join any other hand? Is it possible?
Kern: No, but...
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of...
Kern: No, but you can..., my point is if a child would be born...
Prabhupāda: I'm talking that those who are handicapped, by nature defective, we shall deal with them. That's all right.
Kern: How? How do you deal with them? That's my question.
Prabhupāda: Well, what? How you are dealing? You cannot. I told you that if your hand is cut, is it possible for me to add another hand in your body?
Prabhupāda: There is the question. (devotees laugh) but their reality is dog's race, and our reality is to advance in self-realization, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is difference. Therefore karmīs have been described as mūḍha, asses. Asses. And asses, why the example is given to the asses? Because the ass works very hard. It loads on the back tons of cloth of the washerman, and the washerman in return gives him little morsel of grass, and he stands at the door of the washerman, eats the grass, again loading. But he has no sense that "If I go out of these clutches of washerman I can get grass anywhere. Why I am loading so much?" The karmīs are like that. They're busy in the office, very busy. If you want to see him, "I am very busy now." (laughter) So what is your result of busy? "Now, I take two pieces of toast and one cup of tea. That's all." (laughter) And for this purpose you are so busy? He does not know why he's busy. Because in the books he's finding, "Now, the balance was one thousand million dollars, now it has become two thousand," that his satisfaction. But he will eat two pieces of bread and one cup of tea. When it was one million dollars, when it was two million dollars. But still he'll work hard. This is called karmī. Asses. Work like asses, without any aim of life. This is asses. Mūḍha. But Vedic civilization is different. The accusation is not correct. They are not lazy. They are busy for higher subject matter. And that busy-ness is so important that Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "Beginning from the childhood," kaumāra ācaret prājño (SB 7.6.1). Not lose a second time. So that is Vedic civilization. But these asses, they do not see that "These men are working like us, like dogs and asses. So they are escaping." Yes, escaping your fruitless endeavor. So the Vedic civilization was meant for self-realization. Vedic civilization begins from the varṇāśrama system. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). How to realize Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the system is varṇāśrama. In another place it is said, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer (SB 1.5.17). The varṇāśrama means there is division: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But the ultimate goal is viṣṇur ārādhyate.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The condition is that "those who take shelter unto Me." Now, Mahatma Gandhi manufactured the harijana, but where there is the teaching that "You take shelter of Kṛṣṇa?" So how this harijana will be effective? The condition is there, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32). Read the purport.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher clases of people. In the material conception of life there are such divisions, but for a person engaged in transcendental devotional service to the Lord there are not. Everyone is eligible for the supreme destination. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated that even the lowest, who are called caṇḍālas, dog-eaters, can be elevated by association with a pure devotee. Therefore devotional service and guidance of a pure devotee are so strong that there's no discrimination between the lower and higher classes of men. Anyone can take to it. The most simple man, taking center of the pure devotee, can be purified by proper guidance."
Prabhupāda: Yes. The guidance means how to take him to Kṛṣṇa's shelter. Then he will be all right. The guidance is wrong, no question of Kṛṣṇa, and he, simply by rubberstamping, "Here is a harijana," how it will be effective? Therefore it is failure. He remains the same drunkard, same meat-eater, and he becomes harijana. How it is possible? The guidance required. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 9.59). He must be guided.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You started this explanation by saying, "But who will take it?" So is this to say that this religion that you're speaking of is not trying to be made acceptable to the masses, or is it only for those who will take it?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is the way. That, I have already described it. It is not a sectarianism like Muslimism, Christianism or "Thisism..." Hinduism also now one of them. Actually, it is a way of life, varṇāśrama-dharma, how to become elevated to the spiritual platform. So that begins by the varṇāśrama-dharma, to select persons according to his capacity to different varṇas. Some of them selected, trained as brāhmaṇas. Some of them trained as kṣatriya, some of them as vaiśya, some of them as, remain... Those who cannot take any training, they are śūdras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). That we have lost. The so-called Hinduism they have lost. And because they did not follow real varṇāśrama-dharma, therefore India, so many renegades, Muslim became... Once they become Muslim, there was no reformation. But according to Vedic principle, even one is fallen, he can be raised to the highest standard. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). One may... Saṁskārād bhaved dvija. And Sanātana Gosvāmī says that
- yathā kañcanataṁ yati
- kaṁsyaṁ rasa-vidhānataḥ
- tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena
- dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇam
As by chemical process the bell metal can be turned into gold by adding with the mercury.... This is a chemical process. If you can add in the bell metal proportionately mercury, then it will turn into gold. Here is the process given in the śāstra. If you are able to do it, you can do it, turn gold some of these bell metals. So the example is given that as the bell metal, base metal, can be turned into gold by chemical process, similarly, by dīkṣā-vidhānena, by proper initiation by the bona fide spiritual master, everyone can be turned into dvija, twice-born. Dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇam. Nṛṇam means all men.
Prabhupāda: Chart is already there, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, nine hundred thousand species. Not species, forms.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Now we want to make a very clear distinction of, say, the mode of goodness and mode of passion and ignorance. And we want to give some very specific examples...
Prabhupāda: The demigods, they are in goodness. And the human being in passion, and the animals in ignorance. That is general division.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The animals are ignorance. But now even we come to the, let's say,...
Prabhupāda: Nitijugdeva.(?) Deva means demigods, they are in goodness. And human being in passion, and animals in ignorance. This is general division.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about the plants and other smaller...?
Prabhupāda: That is also animals, less, still more in dense darkness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The other point along this line, we also wanted to, even in the same animal or bird kingdom...
Prabhupāda: No, no. You can very minutely distinguish, this is the general division. Then there is minute division. That is numbering about 8,400,000.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Under that category, that minor divisions, now let's take the animals. Even in the animal kingdom, there are some animals which are influenced...
Prabhupāda: From the animals down, it is all ignorance.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Animals down, all ignorance.
Rūpānuga: What about like the cow, little goodness in it, mixed?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rūpānuga: And the lion, little passion?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, everywhere there is mixture. Otherwise, how it comes to 8,000,000? There is mixture. But this is the general division. Now you cannot make how much passion, how much goodness is there. That you can understand from the behavior. But this is general division. We can speak of general division. The minute division is made by nature. That nature's study, one who can study nature, then he can do that.
Rūpānuga: That means to study the activity, psychology of the...
Prabhupāda: Crow.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Crow is rather very ignorant and wants to be very dirty, whereas...
Prabhupāda: So what you will do by such study?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: By this...
Prabhupāda: Generalize the divisions, that's all. But none of the divisions are spiritual. Our aim is to come to the spiritual platform. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Not that to increase goodness and keep a less quantity passion and ignorance. Be completely free from all the three qualities, that is required.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that is our philosophy, but...
Prabhupāda: So some other living entity who is prominent in this quality, prominent that, it does not make much difference. So long he is in the material qualities, he's entrapped. So get him out of this condition and put him into the spiritual platform. That is the solution. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. In the material world if you think that the quantity of goodness is now big than the other modes of nature, that does not make a solution. Next moment the passion will be prominent, next moment the ignorance will be prominent. You cannot check it or fix him up in one quality. It is not possible. That is not possible. The best thing is to bring him to the unconditional stage, transcendental stage. Sa guṇān... Keep him engaged in devotional service, he is free from influence of all these qualities. That is wanted.
Prabhupāda: So, as far as possible, you can give explanation from Bhāgavatam. Otherwise, how you can...
Devotee: So by giving these examples then they might think this has very good explanatory power, and they will therefore accept it, they will (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: So the general division in the higher planetary system is the devatās, beginning from sun, moon and other planetary systems, they are in modes of goodness prominent. Less, below that, bhūr bhuvaḥ, they are passionate, and below that, they are ignorant.
Devotee: Do the number of demigods have something to do with the number of species, like there are thirty-three million demigods?
Prabhupāda: There are thirty-three million. Thirty crores. There are also divisions, Gandharvas, Apsarās.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do they belong to these species? They are also included in these eight million four hundred? These Gandharvas?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are counted, what, as human beings?
Prabhupāda: Some of them are devatās, some of them are human being.
Rūpānuga: When we say four hundred thousand species of human beings, that doesn't include all the demigods then.
Prabhupāda: The demigods are like human beings.
Prabhupāda: Fifth Chapter?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and glories of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Śrī Balarāma. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma, which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Kṛṣṇaloka. Kṛṣṇaloka, the abode of Kṛṣṇa, has three divisions, which are known as Dvārakā, Mathurā and Gokula. In that abode the Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions-Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma, Pradyumna (the transcendental Cupid) and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Kṛṣṇaloka is a transcendental place known as Śvetadvīpa, or Vṛndāvana. Below Kṛṣṇaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuṇṭha planets. On each Vaikuṇṭha planet a four-handed Nārāyaṇa, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Śrī Balarāma in Kṛṣṇaloka is the original Saṅkarṣaṇa (attracting Deity), and from this Saṅkarṣaṇa expands another Saṅkarṣaṇa, called Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa, who resides in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By His internal potency, Mahā-Saṅkarṣaṇa maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuṇṭha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual kāraṇa-samudra, or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Mahā-Viṣṇu, the original puruṣa expansion from Saṅkarṣaṇa. This Mahā-Viṣṇu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhāna, and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as māyā. But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Mahā-Viṣṇu over material nature produces that cosmic manifestation."
Prabhupāda: Hmm? That is contaminated ego, false ego.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we have a subdivision in the Third Canto for internal subtle senses. It is said mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness and this ego is false ego, and another division is contaminated consciousness.
Prabhupāda: This is false ego, "I am this matter, I am this body." This is false ego.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but why it is...
Prabhupāda: Ego is there, but this is false ego.
Rūpānuga: Then by association with the modes there is contaminated consciousness.
Prabhupāda: This false ego develops.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still in this verse on 7.26, verse 14, it says there are four internal subtle senses. Now these four senses are mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness.
Dr. Sharma: Perhaps you can comment on the fact that in the movement, the Kṛṣṇa people, not only the sannyāsīs, but also the common working man, his karma is karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. He also...
Prabhupāda: This is karma. Karma means according to that division, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Karma means activity. There must be some prescribed activity. Just like you are professor, you have got your prescribed activities. He's the minister of ambassador's, he has got prescribed activities. So everyone has got prescribed activities in whatever position he is, but what is the standard of success, that I have done my duties, prescribed duties properly? What is that standard? The standard is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam: (SB 1.2.13) whether you have satisfied the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your duty. Then it is success.
Professor Flemings: How do you know if you have satisfied God?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the intelligent question. If you do not know who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and how He is satisfied, then you are lacking knowledge. That is being instructed in the Bhagavad-gītā. God Himself is instructing how you can satisfy Him. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is not very difficult. Anyone can do it. "Just always think of Me," God says, Kṛṣṇa says. "Always think of Me." Just as we think of our friend, of our master, of our beloved, similarly we can think of God also. There is no difficulty. But if you have no knowledge about God, how you can think of God? That is the defect. So the..., how God is satisfied, that is there, but if you do not do it... That is our business, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Four things. God says that "You always think of Me, you become My devotee, you just offer Me obeisances, just worship Me," four things. Anyone can do it. It is not difficult.
Prabhupāda: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training. Some section of the people, they should be very intellectuals, brain, just like to maintain this body we require first of all the brain. If the brain is not order, then other parts, they may be there, but they are also useless. So similarly, in the society, some intellectuals should be maintained. They are called brāhmaṇas, and some of the brāhmaṇas, they are sannyāsīs. They are simply meant for giving good instruction. They should personally become very good and intellectual, and they should give instruction to other people what is the value of life, how to live. This is one section. They should be free from the anxiety of maintaining themselves. The society should treat them as children and give them all necessities, bare necessities, not they are meant for living very luxuriously. No. Simple living. Then the next class, kṣatriyas, the politicians, administrators, they are also required to give protection to the people from injury. Kṣatriya, kṣat means injury, and trāyate, "one who saves people from injury." It is kṣatriya's duty. So kṣatriya should protect all the living entities, including the animals. They are also subjects. So the first, intellectual brāhmaṇas, then kṣatriya. Then vaiśyas, their business is to produce food. Food production you can do by agriculture, kṛṣi, and by giving protection to the cows. If you get sufficient food grains, like rice, wheat, pulses, and sufficient milk—from milk you get yogurt, butter, ghee—then your all food problem is solved. You must eat. You must eat, you must live properly. So this first, second, third, the intellectual class, the administrative class, and the productive class, these three classes must be there in the society. And those who cannot be grouped either of these three classes, they should generally help as workers. They are called śūdras. So the workers means... Suppose you require a sitting place: the carpenter is there. Suppose you require a knife: so the blacksmith is there. You require clothing: the weaver is there. In this way, four classes of men. First class, second class, third class, or the intellectuals, the administrators, the producers and the general workers. This is Vedic system of division. Brāhmaṇa... This is for our living condition, and then human life especially meant for spiritual realization, self-realization. For that purpose, again, another four divisions. Generally, the brahmacārī, student life; gṛhastha, married life; vānaprastha, retired life; and sannyāsa, renounced life. So at the end of life one should be renounced from all other responsibilities and completely devote his life for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. In this way, when a person dies in God consciousness, his life is perfect. This is Vedic civilization. Eight divisions, varṇa and āśrama. And if you simply produce śūdras, working class, then you cannot have any happiness. That is not possible. And nowadays democratic, if you send some śūdras to act as kṣatriyas, they cannot do it. You have got practical experience. In Vietnam, what happened?
Prabhupāda: We had some talk with Professor Kotovsky in Moscow. Recently our representative went to Moscow for selling our book. They have highly appreciated our books. They have given in writing appreciation.
Mr. Boyd: Your Grace, in regards to the organization of the movement, as such, I somehow am led to believe that there's no coordination between, should I say, your office, in regards to the karmī world, and the different temples. Are each..., does each temple operate by itself, or each division operate by itself?
Prabhupāda: No, (indistinct). There is separate arrangement for management, but the idea and philosophy is the same. Ultimately, I am managing. I have my twenty secretaries, they are called GBC, they are assisting me to manage. Every GBC has got a certain number of temples to supervise, and ultimately, I supervise everything. Therefore I come occasionally, stay for few days to see how things are going on. I have got hundred temples, big, big temples, very nice. They have organized palatial buildings, but I cannot stay anywhere. (laughter)
Mr. Boyd: That's the trouble with being boss. If you don't do it, nobody else will.
Prabhupāda: As soon as I say, "Ah, it is very nice place," the time is over, they say "You please get out." (laughter and groans from devotees)
Mr. Boyd: The school in Vṛndāvana, is this, I assume this is to be out there in the yard that they were clearing. When do you anticipate that will be built?
Prabhupāda: That is, because it was fight amongst the family members. So He was also related with the Kuru family. His aunt, Kuntī..., Kuntī was married to the Pāṇḍavas. So the family members may not think that He's partial, so He divided Himself into two. His soldiers one side, and He Himself one side. And Arjuna and Duryodhana were present, requesting Him to take their side. So Kṛṣṇa said that "We are all family members, so I divide Myself into two-My soldiers and Myself. So if you want, you take Me or My soldiers, as you like, but if you take Me, I say I'll not fight." So Duryodhana thought that "Kṛṣṇa will not fight and He's prepared to give me soldiers," he took the soldiers, and Arjuna said, "No, I want You." So this was the division. So in the beginning He said that "Even if I go to one side, I'll not fight." So how He could fight? Not that He was not a fighter, but because He promised that "The side which will accept, I'll not fight." But He did not say that "I'll not give you instruction of fighting." That is Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)
Indian man (3): He took the chariot wheel when Bhīṣma pitāmaha was coming to Arjuna. Is that a fight?
Prabhupāda: Your question is?
Indian (1): Yes, varṇāśrama, I wanted to, Swamiji...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head—brāhmaṇa; the arms—kṣatriya; the belly—vaiśya; and the leg—śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there.
Prabhupāda: Everything is possible by Kṛṣṇa's inconceivable energy. Everything is possible. That is inconceivable. It is called therefore "inconceivable." You, we cannot conceive how it is done. Our intelligence is very little. We cannot conceive. Therefore we say, "Oh, this is all mythology." Because we cannot conceive of it. Whatever we cannot conceive we take it as mythology. Nothing is mythology. Everything is possible. That is inconceivable. But they cannot understand what is inconceivable. Unless it is conceivable by them, they do not accept. That is their foolishness. We can see at night worms or flies so small Just like if you divide one grain of rice into one hundred divisions one division—such a small fly. They are independently walking, flying. Freedom. Now just imagine how their anatomic physiology is manufactured within that small (indistinct) of life. But he's exactly doing everything just like a big fly. How it is doing? Therefore I said in that, my interview.
Hari-śauri: Oh. "They can manufacture a jumbo jet but they can't make a mosquito. Neither can they supply the pilot."
Prabhupāda: And the mosquito is with the pilot. They are manufacturing jumbo 747 plane. It requires a pilot separately. But Kṛṣṇa is manufacturing an airplane, mosquito—everything complete, with pilot. This is inconceivable. You can manufacture a big airplane. The pilot is separate. You cannot manufacture the pilot. Kṛṣṇa is manufacturing not only the smallest airplane, but with a pilot. This is inconceivable.
Caraṇāravindam: Also he makes those, you wrote in the Bhāgavatam there are those giant birds that fly in space.
Prabhupāda: And there will be hundreds and thousands mosquitos, they will fly. There will be no accident.
Hari-śauri: No collisions.
Prabhupāda: No, no, not immediately. Immediately how you can speak. Unless he knows, what he'll speak? It is better not to speak than speaking all nonsense. He must learn first of all what is the philosophy, what is the science. Then he can speak. (break)
Vipramukhya:. These Turks are yavanas? Demons and yavanas?
Prabhupāda: Materially there are so many divisions, but spiritual they are all servant of Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is yavana, nobody is brāhmaṇa. Everyone is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). We are going there not to make the yavanas a brāhmaṇa. That is not our mission. Our business is... We know that he is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Forgetting Kṛṣṇa, he's thinking himself as Turkish, as Muhammadan, as Jewish, as Christian. This is his disease. So let me cure his disease. Why he should be called yavana? That is artificial. He's Kṛṣṇa dāsa. Jivera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). Just like when a physician treats a patient, does he think that here is a Christian, here is a Muhammadan, here is a Hindu? He takes as patient. Never mind what he is. And he gives treatment. He never thinks that here is a Christian patient, here is a Muhammadan patient. He is patient. Give me this, bring him medicine. That is physician's business. Why should we consider, "Here is a Christian patient. He should be treated differently than the Muhammadan." Does he think like that? Does he think? Does any physician honestly think that "Here is a Christian patient, special care should be taken for him?" No. If he is physician, he should give the equal treatment to everyone.
Prabhupāda: You cannot expect that everyone is brāhmaṇa. No. He has got śūdra mentality, so let him till the ground for Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. He is fit for tilling so let him till and produce grain for Kṛṣṇa.
Jagadīśa: Hyderabad?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high class brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, not for the vaiśyas and śūdras. (man laughs in background) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there... That I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart.
Pradyumna: Race horse before the cart.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pradyumna: Race horse before the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that will not be nice.
Bhagatji: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi.
Indian man: If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts?
Prabhupāda: No, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth.
Jagadīśa: Accounts is just a skill. Anyone can learn to do account.
Prabhupāda: That's it. There is no prescribed duties. Everyone is a butcher. Formerly there was distinction, "Here is a butcher; here is a religious man." At the present moment everyone is a butcher. Who is religious man? There was division, at least one class, first-class man, second-class man, third-class man. Then, if there is ideal first-class man, even the fourth-class, third man, he'll take the idea, "Oh, here is first-class." But there is no first-class man. All fourth-class men. So who will give idea? And they want to remain fourth-class. If you say that "You become first-class," they will laugh. "What is the use of becoming first-class?" First-class means, find out, śamo damas titikṣā, then, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam.
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what did you want? You asked me to do something...
Prabhupāda: I want the light on the veranda.
Jagadīśa: It's on.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand. It is... The free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ: "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So the prescribed duty is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa and karma, there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brāhmaṇa, you do the brāhmaṇa's work. If you are a kṣatriya, you do the kṣatriya's... Niyataṁ kuru karma. What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Kṛṣṇa's in... But if you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). But you are foolish; then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender to Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma. Kṛṣṇa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But he says, niyataṁ kuru karma. Find out this verse.
- niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ
- karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ
- śarīra-yātrāpi ca te
- na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ
Devotee (3): Should I read the translation?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Te hitam. So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man—"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals-eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, utmost, śūdra, like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping, and sex, and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong then, "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa, then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ... What is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam. If you want to be a vaiśya, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And if you want to remain a śūdra, paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself, either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataṁ karma tvam. Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma. That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time, a single moment. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. So make that. Don't waste your time. That's all right. And she is child. What can be done? You cannot...
Prabhupāda: I'll give full authority. Write letter I shall sign. Yes. You have full authority. Write letter, I'll sign.
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Harikeśa: By your talking, I'm also thinking we should have a farm in Germany, I know...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, why not? Everywhere. I myself when I go to the farm, I forget whether it is India, or Germany, or France. I forget. The land is there. Sarva-kāma-dughā. We get everything from that. I have several times said that why they make this distinction? This is France, this is India, this is... Everywhere is God's land. Why these rascals make division, I do not understand. Every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa, and you are sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. All rascals, mūḍha. There is rain now and then fall in Europe?
Harikeśa: Yes, now it's very much.
Haṁsadūta: Now it's too late.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Haṁsadūta: Now it's too late.
Harikeśa: I mean, it wasn't there, but now it's so much.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then things will be perfect. India, if the whole world can be saved from this chaotic position, India can do. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. But that India leaders first of all make his life perfect. Then it will be all right. Just like our... Of course, I'm not proud, but I am alone. I started this movement alone, without any help. But because I am giving them the perfect information, whole world is taking it. Otherwise, from practical point of view, one man without any help, within ten years he cannot do like this. That's a fact. But I have no difficulty because I am following the Supreme Leader, Kṛṣṇa. People may say that I've done wonderful, but there is nothing magic. Because I am following Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Leader, so far it has become successful. So everyone can do that. Where is the difficulty? Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2). If we follow the paramparā system it is not difficult.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: These are all of Prabhupāda's books. Eighty books.
Prabhupāda: Eighty-four books we have, I have written within ten years. And our publication house, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the first in the world for publishing religious and philosophical books. We are selling not less than six lakhs worth books daily.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, publishing division.
Mr. Tombe: I have got only a few of them now. I would like to pick up...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here, these are... We only have sample copies in India. So I'll tell Girirāja to bring you some. These are only sample copies for Prabhupāda's display. (end)
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Crows will never come to a nice place. They'll go to the filthy place, where everything rubbish is thrown out. The crow will take advantage of it: "Oh, here is enjoyable thing." Tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham. So we have been educated to become vāyasa, crows, useless black bird. There are other birds also, but these... Amongst the birds, these crows are most disliked by everyone. So our present literature and taste of literature is like that, crows. "Ka, ka, ka, ka." Even amongst the birds, they'll find swan, white swan. And they're black crows. Nature's division is so nice. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo pragṛṇīta karhicit tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasā (SB 1.5.10). That is rejected by the mānasā. Mānasā means the birds who live in the māna-sarovara, just like ducks and swans.
Dr. Patel: Haṁsas.
Prabhupāda: Haṁsas. They live in a very nice clean water, garden. Uśanti mānasā. They do not go there. Now they are making so much propaganda against our men, but these boys will never go to cinema. Uśanti mānasā. They are boys. They have no attraction, restaurant and cinema. You'll never find. Uśanti mānasā. They have rejected. And we see others—they are making line, queue. Yes. Why? Vāyasaṁ tīrtham. They like that. Crows like... They have been educated like crows.
Dr. Patel: They feed on the filth. This is one difficulty. All people are mad after the cinema.
Prabhupāda: They will wait four hours, five hours, standing. Why cinema? I have seen in London the British Museum. Something came there. From morning there is a queue. Exactly like that, they were standing to go and see the museum. Something came. I... Three, four years ago I saw. They were standing. Just like here. For purchasing the cinema ticket they are standing and eating nampalli, just to see, eyesight. They will not come to see Deity in the temple. They'll not come. Mentality is different. It is a very dangerous civilization, soul-killing civilization. We should be very, very careful if we want success also. We shall go now? (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Aristocratic will never live... Even in America, they don't like to live with the blacks.
Rāmeśvara: No.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) That child...? So that separation... Crows will not like to live with the ducks and white swans. And white swans will not like to live with the crows. That is natural division. "Birds of the same feather flock together."
Jagadīśa: And honest men don't like to associate with thieves and criminals.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is natural. We are not interested even with these daily newspapers. We are interested Bhagavad-gītā. We don't keep any news. We know the dogs are barking. That's all. But that does not mean we have to mix with the dogs.
Jagadīśa: If you know that someone is committing criminal activities, then if you associate with them, you'll also become implicated.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ.
Rāmeśvara: They have a list of five or six conditions, and they say if all those conditions are there, then it is a suitable atmosphere for brainwashing. And they say we are imposing those conditions on our members.
Gargamuni: Yes. In Australia.
Hari-śauri: In Australia they've only got thirteen million people in the whole country, and it's bigger than America. And in Canada also, they only have a few million. And in Russia they don't have such a big population for the size of the land. But because they've set up these national divisions, then in one place they're killing the population...
Prabhupāda: No... Vedic process is that unless you create nice children or you can give them protection from death, don't create children. Brahmacārī. Remain brahmacārī. That is sensible, that "Why shall I beget children like cats and dogs if I cannot take care of them properly?" That is very gentlemanly. What is this? I create and kill? Most uncivilized. Don't create. That is civilized man. "If I cannot take care of them properly, I'll not create children."
Gargamuni: They're not educating the population in brahmācārya.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gargamuni: Therefore these beggars are there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is gentlemanly, that "Why shall I take responsibility of family if I cannot maintain them properly?" That is very gentlemanly. That is civilization. "And I accept so-called family for sense gratification; I cannot maintain them and kill them"—what is this? Is that civilization? They should be ashamed to be called civilized men. Here is civilized way. Preach this because the Vedic civilization is real civilization. "You are not civilized. You have killed Jesus Christ who instructed, 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should be ashamed of your present civilization. It is... Brainwash is required."
Prabhupāda: ...the society. Eh? Father, mother, killing children, is that human society?
Rāmeśvara: No, lower than animal.
Prabhupāda: You see? And we have to tolerate this?
Rāmeśvara: Well, what about all these artificial divisions, "this nation," "that nation," "this land"?
Prabhupāda: That is also another fanaticism.
Rāmeśvara: Nationalism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another fanaticism, gundaism. Not nationalism. Gundaism. "Everything belongs to God. We are sons of God. We must enjoy everywhere. You cannot check."
Rāmeśvara: It seems that eventually, then, the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement will establish one world government.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. Actually that is the meaning.
Rāmeśvara: Within the period of...
Prabhupāda: We actually do. When you go to the sea, who claims "This is my sea"?
Hari-śauri: Actually they're doing that now. They have twelve-mile limits and things like that.
Prabhupāda: That is also limited. So twelve miles...
Prabhupāda: Money is the only aim. And they will talk all nonsense and make experiment, especially in the Western countries. Here also they have got now money-making sight. Lawyers also. Any... I have seen in our relatives, big, big rich men. The brothers may sit down and make some... My father-in-law did that. They sat down, and they were two brothers, and divided his property and got two days. But those who are rascals, they go to lawyer and continually meeting—his man, his man. In this way the whole property is sold. And they get out with this. That's all. I have seen so many cases. Then the property division means there is nothing to divide. Everything is sold, and the money was taken by the lawyers as their fees. I have seen so many cases. These real estate men? Real estate? They also. So many times they complicated our men. You know that?
Satsvarūpa: The first time?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll promise... You have got five thousand dollars. They'll promise 100,000 dollars' property you'll get, and how it will be done, this scheme, that scheme... "We'll do this scheme, that..." Then they will take five thousand dollars from you, and they will say, "Now it is finished. Now bring more money." Then further made... That lawyer who was trying to give me a permanent visa?
Satsvarūpa: Yeah, some Greek name.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Fishlington or something like that.
Prabhupāda: When the Britishers saw, "Now the soldiers are coming in national movement. There is no hope. Better break this and go peacefully so that our business may not be disturbed, our relation may not be disturbed. Make a Commonwealth and so on, so on, hodgepodge. And do as much harm as possible dividing Pakistan and Hindustan, all the food in Pakistan, East Bengal and West Pakistan, gehun(?) and rice." And this Hindustan in starvation, because they were getting gehun(?) from Punjab and rice from East Bengal, and that is stopped. They very clever. Greatest harm they did. And in politics made in such a way that these two people, Hindustan and Pakistan, always fight. So they have gained. You have not gained. Gandhi wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. They made so bitter relationship that they will perpetually fight. That is Gandhi's qualification. They are so great diplomats that "This man wants Hindu-Muslim unity, so make such arrangement that this... They fight will continuous. And give all the food to the Pakistani, so they will starve. Let them eat coal." The Hindustan has got coal mine. "So they will suffer for industrial supply, and they will suffer for food. And they will fight." British diplomats are very clever. Gandhi even offered that "Don't divide India. You better give it to Jhinna." But this commission, this Patita Lalan(?). "No, no," said, "It is... Otherwise, there will be conflagration of always fight. Let it be settled." Gandhi went to this point, that "If you think that without division India will be chaos, so you better give it to Jhinna in the hand. Don't give it to me." But they wanted division.
Guest (1): That is a British policy.
Prabhupāda: They wanted this division.
Pradyumna: Gandhi was very much against division.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Division means that what remains India? Formerly India was India, Burma, Ceylon. They never divided, divided. They wanted that "Divide, divide, divide, and let this rascal have a small plot of land."
Guest (1): No, even they made it, all the states, independent.
Prabhupāda: Yes, to make their choice: "You can join either Pakistan or India."
Guest (1): Or remain independent also.
Prabhupāda: They wanted to make nil India. The Hyderabad state was given choice. Kashmir was given choice, whichever, Hindustan or Pakistan. That is still going on, the Kashmir.
Guest (1): Even in Orissa, small states just like Mariwan(?) and Venkana(?), they were independent before that time, till Sardar Patel(?) came in and asked them to...
Prabhupāda: Simply divide, divide, divide. Divide and rule, and divide and break. They have done always like that.
Guest (1): That proviso was the written rule. They made completely... Without that they cannot do it actually. They made such a big empire, they cannot do actually without divide-and-rule policy.
Prabhupāda: Bheda, bheda, bheda policy. This is called sandhyaṁ bheda. There are four policies.
Prabhupāda: ...here is envious. So envious, upekṣā, means they should not be associated. Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca. Four division: God, īśvara; and tad-adhīneṣu. Devotees, those who have accepted... (break) That is devotee. Bāliśa, those who are innocent. Preaching...
Jayapatākā: Like child, bāliśa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be trained up. And dviṣatsu, envious. Four division. So four divisions you have to treat in different ways. Prema, Lord, prema, love. Maitrī, friendship with devotees. Kṛpā bāliśu, those who are innocent, the kṛpā. Let them learn. And upekṣā. As soon as come to the dviṣat, no cooperation. Keep aloof. So when we try to keep aloof from the envious, that is not our enviousness. That is just to avoid trouble for preaching work. Not that we hate them. But because... When you avoid a snake, it does not mean I hate the snake, but because he is harmful we have to take precaution. This is the statement of Bhāgavatam. And when you are in the mahā-bhāgavata stage, first-grade, that time, paramahaṁsa, nobody's enemy, nobody's friend. Everyone... That we cannot imitate. It is not... Preacher, even if he's mahā-bhāgavata, he comes to the second stage. Just like Guru Mahārāja. He's mahā-bhāgavata, but still he had to come to the second stage. He had to take precaution. That is natural. There are so many enemies of...
Jayapatākā: We were remembering how Nitāi had been poisoned, Nitāi and Yogānanda are your disciples. They were recently poisoned.
Prabhupāda: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.
- śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ
- yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam
- dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca
- kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam
- (BG 18.43)
He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because kṣatriya. They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, śūdras, they are simply given vote. That's all. Where is the training?
Hari-śauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now they're using airplanes and tanks and guns.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like that division was simply spiteful.
Prabhupāda: That is politics.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was no purpose to it.
Prabhupāda: No.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What could England gain from the separation?
Prabhupāda: Gain means they are now finished. They have gained this. They have no prestige, no money.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was their gain from dividing India and Pakistan?
Prabhupāda: Oh, that, that is enviousness.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Just spiteful enviousness.
Prabhupāda: Enviousness. Just like, you like..., who has done something wrong to you, you like to do some wrong, harm.
Hari-śauri: That was Churchill? Churchill's policy?
Prabhupāda: At that time not Churchill. Attlee, Attlee was Prime Minister.
Prabhupāda: Then that will be very nice. I want to have a small Vaiṣṇava state-varṇāśrama ideal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is possible in Manipur.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I thought it. Ideal Vaiṣṇava state. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they are doing very nicely, and people will be surprised, "Oh." There is no question of hatred. It is division for proper discharge of duty.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I saw in the airport, the policemen, they have this tilaka.
Prabhupāda: Tilaka.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Policemen, they are dressed, but they have tilaka.
Prabhupāda: Manipur? Manipur?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Manipur. And always give respect. Though I am nobody, but...
Prabhupāda: Tilaka.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow. The policemen wear tilaka. There is justice for sure.
Prabhupāda: So immediately do it. I shall go. If there is such possibility... Let us have a small ideal state. If respectable gentlemen take it, oh, it will be a great success, an ideal state throughout the whole world, Vaiṣṇava state.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Example. You can show that example.
Prabhupāda: Individual. Where there is question of mixing? Śaṅkarācārya's mistake is that the spirit is a mixture, and in māyā state, they're divided. Is it not? So when the division is finished, then it is spirit. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that. He says in the past we are individual, at present we are individual, and in future we shall continue to be individual.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Seems that we have a good field in medicine, speaking with doctors. It's very interesting. And because they deal with life, so my first question is "What is life?" I just ask them, "What is your concept of life?" And they become very...
Prabhupāda: Concept of life is clear in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is also one of the elements, but superior element. The gross earth, water, air, fire, ether, even mind, intelligence, ego, they are inferior. And there is another superior item. That is living entity. It is clearly said. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). And that is important because that living entity is handling this inferior. Very clear. Just like a good machine. That machine as it is, it is not important. A living entity has handled it. By handling, the machine is prepared, and by handling it is important. So who is superior, this matter or the person who is handling? And it's clear—yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate. It is clear. And similarly, whole machine must be handled by a living creature. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carāca... (BG 9.10). Clear. How you can deny it? Taking this whole cosmic manifestation as machine... It is machine. We admit that. But it is being handled by a living being, the supreme living being. That is God. But they have no intelligence to understand, such a rascal civilization. Practically we are seeing. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. (bird chirping loudly) Stop.
Girirāja: Actually, a short time ago, everyone knew that these things were wrong, but now they are trying to pretend that it is not wrong. They are trying to forget.
Prabhupāda: They can do, all their political divisions. These rascals, they can do. Anything. They have no principles, no morality, no standard of morality, nothing. Simply all rogues and thieves. It will more and more. All rogues and thieves will take part in politics. That is stated. Dasyu dharmeṇa. Just like dasyu, the burglar, the thieves, they have got organization how to get money. So they, the government, they'll be rogues and thieves. And whenever there is necessity of money, then tax. You work hard; they will tax. Organized burglars, organized guṇḍās. And Indira was doing that. Indira and company. Take the power and club(?) them and do whatever you like. She is a prostitute; her son is a guṇḍā. This is the sample of the... But it will be done all round the world. This is a sample of that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She seems to have been one of the worst leaders so far.
Prabhupāda: She is not leader, she is a prostitute. Woman given freedom means prostitute. Free woman means prostitute. What is this prostitute? She has no fixed-up husband. And free woman means this, daily, new friend.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is Indira's husband, a congressman?
Girirāja: He died at an early age.
Prabhupāda: Hm? Who?
Prabhupāda: This unnecessary expenditures like Sanskrit department and art department, this should be curtailed. We require money for Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "4) Every BBT division must make a monthly BBT report showing the income and expenditure and reviewing Press activity. All forms must be stated in US dollars except the Indian statement, which should also be stated in rupees." One of the reasons for this, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that the only two, or I should say, the only three BBT divisions, or four, that gave regular reports was English, that was Rāmeśvara; Spanish, Hṛdayānanda Mahārāja; German was Jayatīrtha; and then Harikeśa. But the French were not giving any kind of regular statement. They have never given any statement.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Bhagavān said he didn't have the necessary accountants. He gave a number of reasons. But the BBT Trustees rejected all the reasons and said that now there has to be a regular statement monthly. Similarly from India, there was no regular monthly statement given out to the other trustees. So now every month all the trustees must send a regular statement." 5) The Deity worship book will be printed by Jayatīrtha dāsa without BBT funds." This is that book. I forget the Sanskrit name, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Devotee: Hari-bhakti-vilāsa.
Prabhupāda: No, not...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "14) All foreign language editions of BTG will include a section of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam."
Prabhupāda: Hm, that's nice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "15) Foreign temples will receive records for approximately 75 cents, while North American temples will pay one dollars. All profits made by the BBT for records will go to ISKCON Food Relief. Prices may increase if the costs rise. 16) Harikeśa Mahārāja will take responsibility to prepare the Māyāpura brochure. 17) The BBT Trustees for each division are responsible for setting priorities in each division." That means printing priorities. "18) The US BBT will experiment with importation of books from India as soon as..."
Prabhupāda: What happened to that book, Dialectic Spiritualism?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spiritual Dialectics?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Dialectic Spiritualism.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dialectical Spiritualism. I think Harikeśa was working on that, wasn't he, when he was here...
Prabhupāda: No, no, it is finished. It was being edited by...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, okay, well, I'll write and ask.
Prabhupāda: ...Hayagrīva. But he is doing nothing and taking money.
Prabhupāda: One gentleman came: "Sir, you are..." So he might be one of the hanging passengers.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) That was funny. When you said that, the Chief Minister was laughing. At that point he was smiling. Everyone in that crowd was thinking, "Yes. He's talking about me."
Prabhupāda: Is that civilization? Human being should be calm and quiet, peaceful and advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There must be four divisions, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, everything. Everything is lost. From the very morning, "Where is bread? Where is bread?" We have no fixed income, but we are so pure(?). We are maintaining big establishment. Who has got so big establishment? And what is our asset? Asset is only Kṛṣṇa. For ordinary karmīs to maintain such house and such big establishment...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not possible. No one can do it.
Prabhupāda: He'll have insomnia, cannot sleep at night. What would have been the cost of the establishment? So many men are working.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What to speak of worldwide.
Prabhupāda: This is one only.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of one hundred.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That oneness is on the spiritual platform. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). That is another thing. But so long you have got a bodily concept of life, you must divide: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). That is wanted. Just like in my body there is division. There is head. There is hand. There is leg. There is belly. So they have got different activities. The head is important. If you cut the head, then whole thing is finished.
Indian man (3): We need the substratum because of which we identify with the processes.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Indian man (3): We need the substratum because of which we see the differences.
Prabhupāda: Difference is there in your body. Do you think the head and the leg the same thing?
Indian man (3): But certain occupation...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say that you have to take work from the head and from the leg, but head and leg different. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). That is science. If you want to take the work of head from the leg, that is foolishness. Head must remain head, leg must remain leg, but you take the work of leg for walking; you take the work of the brain for thinking. That is wanted. Evasive is no good. So anyway, our mission is that Indians especially, they should take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā—not by distorting the meaning. As it is. You cannot distort the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Then you defy the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. You manufacture your own way. That is very bad. Then there is no authority. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). As Arjuna... "Whatever You say, I have accepted." That is the need, not that "I am very learned scholar; I can change the meaning." That is not good. You are not greater authority than Kṛṣṇa. Thinking like that is foolishness. Kṛṣṇa is authority. All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they have all accepted kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). How you can speak something else what, against what, the instruction of Kṛṣṇa?
Yaśodānandana: It is mentioned that this Sumeru Parvata, the mountain's height is the same as the width of Jambūdvīpa. So this mountain comes up to here, the same distance as this, 100,000 yojanas. So it's perfectly... This is the same length on this side and also like this. It's made like a big, a big cone on top. It describes, "Of that mountain, Sumeru Parvata, 16,000 yojanas, or 128,000 miles, are within, under." So Sumeru is like this, and it also goes under the Jambūdvīpa planetary system. And therefore the mountain's head above the earth, above here, there is 84,000 yojanas, 672,000 miles above the level. And the mountain's width, the mountain on top, is considered to be 32,000 yojanas, or 256,000 miles. And in the bottom it's 16,000 yojanas. Scientists cannot conceive of this. Their estimation of a mountain is that it must be bigger in the bottom and end up smaller at the top, but Mount Meru is twice as big in the top than it is in the bottom. They cannot understand. Next verse, it describes the different divisions. "Just north of Ilāvṛta-varṣa and going further northward, one after another, are three mountains, namely Nīla Mountain, Śveta Mountain, and Śṛṅgavān Mountain. These mark the borders of the three varṣas, namely Ramyaka, Hiraṇmaya, and Kuru, and separate them from one another. The width of these mountains is..."
Prabhupāda: And it was not possible for me to digest. (laughs) Somebody else helped me to... I am a layman. I do not know.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How did you write it?
Prabhupāda: That somebody, Kṛṣṇa, helped me. That He manufactured.
Yaśodānandana: And these mountains, they extend to the beaches. "It is considered, according to the Bhāga..."
Prabhupāda: When I was writing, I was praying Kṛṣṇa that "I do not actually accommodate all this knowledge. Please help me." Yes. That's all right.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There.
Yaśodā-nandana: The islands are surrounding the oceans. It goes in a circle. There's a whole ocean surrounding one island. And each island is divided by seven mountains and seven rivers, and the main sons of Mahārāja Priyavrata, they also have sons, and each one of those seven divisions are being ruled by the seven grandsons of Mahārāja Priyavrata too.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Priyavrata had seven children on seven islands, and each one of them had seven children. So each son of Priyavrata divided his island in seven parts, and it was given to one of the grandsons of Priyavrata. We could not show that because it's so small. This is drawn exactly to scale. In order to include all of the Bhū-maṇḍala we had to make everything up very small because, as you'll see, most of Bhū-maṇḍala is made of Loka-varṣa and Lokāloka mountain. Everything else is very small compared to those two.
Yaśodā-nandana: Surrounding the sugarcane ocean, there is Śālmalidvīpa, where again there are seven divisions of land, seven rivers...
Prabhupāda: So island and surrounded by ocean, like that.
Bhakti-prema: Yes.
Yaśodā-nandana: Śālmalidvīpa is this purple here. Still, it is very difficult to see. And surrounding Śālmalidvīpa is an ocean of liquor, Surā-sāgara. There's an ocean of liquor. There is Kuśadvīpa.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Which one is that?
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say kṣatriya. Some of our men should be trained as kṣatriya.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is required.
Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—not that all one class. That is all wrong.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some people are inclined in that way. Guṇa-karma.
Prabhupāda: But everyone can be utilized if you organize it rightly. Three hundred dacoits there means government is very weak.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's just in one little area, Nadia District. Imagine how many dacoits are in all of Bengal now. It will get even worse than it was in 1971. I'm sure, as the Kali-yuga progresses, it will only get worse. And it was very bad. I remember when we were living in Bali Ganj. Every day there was march. People were marching, Communist slogans.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Bhakti-caru was saying that one of the reasons Bengali people are by nature... They're intelligent. They're always intelligent people, not so much physically hard working. So without so much physical work to do and without proper employment, this intelligence now has become misdirected. 'Cause nowhere else in India do the Communists have such a foothold as in Bengal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At around noontime, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a big feast at one o'clock.
Prabhupāda: So half of our men may come back.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Half of the men may come, and half should stay. All the Vṛndāvana devotees can stay. All the visiting devotees should go. All right, we'll make that division, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Keep that palanquin.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Keep the palanquin on the cart?
Prabhupāda: Cart?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Palanquin.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where should we keep it? With us on the cart?
Prabhupāda: Carry it.
Haṁsadūta: Bring it along.
Pañca-draviḍa: We'll bring it along. (discussion of how to do this)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when we'll come back from Govardhana?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Tomorrow night.
| Page Title: | Divisions (Conversations 1976 - 1977) |
| Compiler: | MadhuGopaldas, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 18 of Apr, 2013 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=49, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 49 |