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Divisions (Conversations 1968 - 1975)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Interview -- February 1, 1968, Los Angeles:

Interviewer: Do you have a name that you call... are they called students? Like, would he be called a student or a...?

Devotee: Brahmacārī.

Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī. We have got four divisions. Those who are not married, they are called brahmacārīs. And those who are married, they are called gṛhasthas. And those who are retired, they are called vānaprasthas. And those who are renounced, they have no connection with anything worldly, they are called sannyāsa. Just like I am a sannyāsī. Sannyāsī mean I have got my family, I have got my wife, children, grandchildren in India, but I have no connection with them. I live alone.

Interviewer: Could I ask for a spelling on those?

Prabhupāda: Sannyā... Yes, brahmacārī: b-r-a-h-m-a-c-h-a-r-y, this is brahmacārī. Then gṛhastha: g-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. H-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. G-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a. Is that clear? Gṛhastha. Then vānaprastha: v-a-n-a-p-r-a-s-t-h-a, vānaprastha. Then sannyāsī: s-n-n-y-a-s-i, sannyāsī. Four divisions. These four divisions, and there are other four orders of social system. That is according to work, division according to work and quality. Just like the brāhmaṇas, b-r-a-h-m-a-i-n-s, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of the society. The kṣatriyas, k-s-h-a-t-r-y-a-s, kṣatriyas. Kṣatriyas means persons who are interested in politics, in the management of the country, political affairs. They are called kṣatriyas. Similarly, there is the vaiśyas, v-a-i-s-y-a-s. Vaiśyas means the mercantile, productive class. Those who are engaged in producing grains or trade, milk, and in industry. Of course, industry, artisans, they are called, artists, śūdras. Anyway, any person engaged in producing for the needs of the society, they are called vaiśyas. And the worker class is called śūdra. So according to Vedic system, these are eight divisions. Unless the human society is divided into these eight divisions in terms of material and spiritual progress of life, that is not accepted as human society.

Interview -- March 9, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: So it is very important work to select that: if anyone is serious to become God conscious or Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore in our program meat-eating is forbidden. So that is very important in that sense. The next question is, "So, what is the significance..." I think I've already explained this. "Is there a probationary period for Kṛṣṇa consciousness or does one attain this enlightening according to his own rate of development?" Yes, everything requires little enthusiasm. Just like a boy is going to school with no enthusiasm, and a boy is going to school with nice enthusiasm. One boy is passing in the first class, first division and another boy is failing or he's passing in the third division. So the probation period, of course, I've already explained: to associate with us, the second stage. First stage is faith and respect, the second stage is association. That is probational period. And so far attaining enlightenment according to one's rate of development; that development depends on your enthusiasm; how far you are serious. But one should become very serious. That is the law in every sphere of achievement. So for attaining to the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one should be very much enthusiastic. Yes. He must attain to the perfectional stage in this life. And then one should be patient also. Enthusiasm does not mean if I attain something immediately the result is immediate. No. The result may be delayed but we should not be disturbed. But we must go on working with enthusiasm. This is called patience. Enthusiasm, patience and confidence. Because we believe in Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says that if you do this you get this result. Therefore I must have confidence. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that simply by understanding Him, what He is, how does He come, how does He walk, one immediately gets passport to enter into the spiritual kingdom. So we must have confidence that I'm working in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I must go back to Godhead, back to home.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple is open for everyone. Let them come and sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, hear Bhagavad-gītā. We don't say, "Oh, are you potter? No. You are not allowed." We don't say that. "Are you cobbler? Oh, you are not allowed." No. We don't say that. Everyone is welcome. Come on. And what is the business? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can do it. And what is the next business? We read some nice philosophical portion from Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Yes. You have got ears. (shouts:) But the rascals are not coming! That is their rascaldom. Because they will go to hell. We are offering the greatest facility, but they are so rascals they are not coming. This is a rascaldom civilization. What is difficulty there? You come, sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, take nice prasādam, hear philosophy, see nice pictures, decorated Deity. What is the difficulty there? But their brain is full with rascaldom. They will go to cinema, they will go to hotel, they will go to some other thing, but they will not come to temple, or church, or anywhere where these things are being done. This is called Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means they are so condemned that they don't take facility of the highest benefit. They have been educated. They have been trained in such a way that they don't like this. But this is their success. Bhāgavata says, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ means sectional division. "My dear learned brāhmaṇas..." Because Suta Gosvāmī was speaking to very learned assembly of brāhmaṇas Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Because it is understandable not by ordinary class of men. But they are not disallowed. It depends on the speaker to present very nicely for their understanding. It is not, I mean to say, stopped. Nityam bhāgavata-sevaya (SB 1.2.18). This is the process.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation With John Lennon, Yoko Ono, and George Harrison -- September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst:

Prabhupāda: How we can claim? Suppose you have given me this place to stay. I stay for one week, and if I claim, "Oh, this is my room," is that very nice thing? (laughs) There will be immediately some disagreement, trouble. But you have kindly spared this room. I am living here. I can comfortably live, enjoy. And when my necessity... When I go, there is no trouble. Similarly, we come here in the kingdom of God empty-handed; we go empty-handed. Why we trouble that "This is my property, this is my country, this is my world, this is my planet"? Why we claim like that? Is it not insanity? Wherefrom the claim comes? So Kṛṣṇa says that sarva-loka-maheśvaram: "I am the Supreme Lord of every place." And suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 5.29). And He is the real friend of every living entity. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). As a friend, He is sitting within your heart. He's so nice friend. In this material world we make friendship. It breaks. Or the friend lives somewhere, and I live somewhere. But He's so nice friend that He's living within, with me and within my heart. He is so nice friend. Sarva-bhūtānāṁ. He's not only selected friend. No. Even the most insignificant creature, he is living there. Paramātmā. So if these three things are understood clearly, then he becomes peaceful. This is the peace formula. So everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā and Vedic literature. Simply one has to learn. Just like in arithmetic. There is all mathematical calculation, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, this or that, fraction. One has to learn. So Bhagavad-gītā is so nice book and it is accepted. Not that because we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are advocating for Bhagavad... No. It is accepted by scholarly section, religious section, not only in India, but all over the world. Perhaps you know. In every country there are thousands of Bhagavad-gītā translation, in every language, in English, in French, in German, all languages. And even Mohammedans... Of course, scholarly Mohammedans, they also read very nicely Bhagavad-gītā. I know one Mohammedan professor in India. He was a great devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. He did not disclose that he was a devotee, but he was observing Janmāṣṭamī fasting day and he was writing one article on Kṛṣṇa every Janmāṣṭamī day. There are many. They read. And in our childhood... Not childhood, we were young man at that time. So one Englishman was a tenant in Calcutta, my friend's house. So he was vacating the house.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam, yat karoṣi. "Whatever you do, the result should be given to Me." Do for it. "Do for for Me." Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi dadāsi yat (BG 9.27). So this requires training, how everything can be molded for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore guidance required, bona fide spiritual master required. Under his guidance, one has to do. Ādau gurvāśrayam. In order to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one has to first of all accept a bona fide spiritual master. Then everything will be done. He is representative of Kṛṣṇa, and to act under his direction means acting under Kṛṣṇa. He knows how to utilize your energy for service of Kṛṣṇa. Ādau gurvāśrayam sad-dharma-pṛcchat sādhu-mārgānugāmanam. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī, he was prime minister. He had no information of Kṛṣṇa, but since he saw... Of course, Rūpa Gosvāmī is eternally Kṛṣṇa's companion, but superficially he was showing that he was a prime minister and he was engaged in Nawab's service. But when he met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then he decided that "I shall retire from this service and act Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission." So what did he do? Whatever money he collected by his service—it was huge amount-fifty percent he immediately spent for Kṛṣṇa. And fifty..., twenty-five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his emergency expenditure. So this division, fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa means the whole life he acted as a minister, that means he acted for Kṛṣṇa. Because the result is given to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa says, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. Is it clear? But our business is... Suppose I am earning for my livelihood. Everyone is working for... Livelihood requires only six annas per day. But he is earning six thousand per day, and he says, "It is my livelihood." Is it not fact? Very, very... Many, many big businessmen, they are earning six thousand per month...per day. But actually, for his livelihood he requires six annas. Why he's earning six thousand? Then Kṛṣṇa says, "Give it to Me." Yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: So we have got evidences that his varṇāśrama system is current at least for the five thousand years, varṇāśrama system. And this varṇāśrama system is mentioned in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa also. Varnāśramācaravata puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān

(CC Madhya 8.58). Varnāśrama acaravata. So that is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. And so varṇāśrama-dharma is not a, within any historical period calculated in the modern age. It is natural. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the comparison is given, just like in your body, in my body, there are four divisions, the face, facial, or the brain division, and the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division, similarly, by nature's way these four divisions are existing in the social body. You may take history wherever you begin, but this is existing. A class of men, they are considered to be brain. A class of men, they are considered to be the arms, administrators. And a class of men, they are called productive class. So there is no need of tracing the history. It is naturally existing from the day of creation.

Prof. Kotovsky: According to so many... You have just told that in any society there are four divisions, but the case is not so easy to distinguish. For instance, one can group, one can group, group together, different social classes and professional groups into four divisions in any society. There's no difficulty. Only difficulty, for instance, in socialist society of our country and a socialist society how can you distinguish productive group and workers?

Prabhupāda: Just like you belong to the intelligent class of men.

Prof. Kotovsky: Intelligent, yes, so...

Prabhupāda: So this is a division.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos. Neither you can depend only on brāhmaṇa. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg. The leg is also required, the brain is also required, the arm is also required—for cooperation, to fulfill the mission of the whole body. So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain. I am not talking of your state or my state. I am taking the world as it is. The brain... Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a kṣatriya king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization. So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work. That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception. Mukha-bāhūru-padebhyaḥ. They say, mukha... Mukha means the face. Bahu means the arm. Uru means this, this, or waist. And pada. So anywhere, either you take this state or that state—doesn't matter—unless there is a smooth, systematic establishment of these four orders of life, the state or the society will not go very smoothly.

Conversation with Journalists -- August 18, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That demonic civilization is creating problems. Not the increase of population. This is not the fact. Now, so far I have studied, that in America, in Africa, in Australia, there are so much vacant places that the present population of the world, if it is increased ten times, still there is enough food...

Journalist (1): And you think there's enough food.

Prabhupāda: There is enough provisions. But we have made artificial divisions. "This is America." The Americans, they went from Europe, and they illegally occupied that place. Now they won't allow anyone to come there. Similarly, the Australians, they won't allow to come there. New Zealand, Africa. Why? Our philosophy: Everything belongs to God, and we are all sons of God. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. This is our philosophy.

Journalist (1): But the values of Western civilization have made that...

Prabhupāda: Western civilization created artificial. "This is Africa, this is America, this is Europe..."

Journalist (1): Yes. Therefore that's made living as children of God impossible.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the one son of God is not allowing the other son to come in. And that he hasn't got the right to forbid. Just like your father has got ten sons. So all the tens sons have got the right to use the property of the father. That is law. Similarly, all the living entities, not only human beings. Birds, animals, birds, beasts—everyone. This is called spiritual, or transcendental, communism. According to Vedic civilization, a householder has to see that even a lizard in the room is not fasting, to see whether it has got his food. Even there is a snake in the house, the householder is to see whether the snake has got his food. A householder would stand on the street, and before taking his food, he will say loudly, "If anyone is hungry, please come. Still I have got my food." And if there is no response, then he takes prasādam.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes, designation means falsely identifying that I am this body. Now the soul is in this body. Next time the soul is in another body. So according to the body we are having designations. As soon as we get American body, I think myself American. Next life, if I get a body of a dog, then I think myself dog, designate. According to the body I create my designations. But one has to become free from all designations. That is called liberated stage. This is own constitutional position. That position is eternal servant of God. That is the real position of every living entity. But because at the present moment the living entity is in contact with matter, so according to the material modes of the body, he's identifying himself with this body. That is called material designation. "I am American." "I am Englishman." "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." "I am this." "I am that." These are all designations. So real perfection of life is without designations. And that is the real constitutional position. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). Actual, position of the living entity (indistinct) So that is the perfection of life. And human life is especially meant for, to come to that transcendental position, without any designations. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. One should be always thinking of Kṛṣṇa or God. That position is perfect (indistinct). And if one keeps himself in that designation-less position, always thinking of himself, as part and parcel of God, then next life he goes back home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). After quitting this body he does not come back again to take another material body. He takes spiritual body, or develops a spiritual body and goes back to home, back to Godhead, which means eternal, blissful life of knowledge our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose. We are trying to bring all men..., of different dimensions, different divisions, to come to this position, always thinking that I am part and parcel of God. My real position is to serve God. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. The business of the finger is to serve the body. So long it is in normal condition, the finger is meant for serving the body. When the finger is painful or in abnormal condition it cannot serve the body. Similarly, the living entity, being part and parcel of God, when we cannot serve God that is his abnormal condition. And when he serves God that is his normal condition. That is designation-less position. That is our program.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Huh? There is no question of preference. Kṛṣṇa's creation, it is there. You are creating (indistinct) caste, jana-saṅgaś caste. Caste is already given, in a different name. How you can make casteless? That is not possible. The whole world—"I am American," "I am Indian"—this is caste, bigger caste. Yasyātma-buddhi-kuṇa. So long you will be under the concept of this body, there must be caste division. So we have to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then there will be no caste. Just like these boys, Americans, Europeans, Africans, Canadians, they have no caste, they have no nationality. They are simply for Kṛṣṇa. That is casteless.

Reporter: So are they brāhmaṇas?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa conscious means brāhmaṇa. Brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ.

Reporter: Not by birth?

Prabhupāda: Not by birth. They are brāhmaṇas by quality. They have got sacred thread. That is also there in the śāstra. Yasya hi yad lakṣaṇaṁ syat. Varṇa has been given. Varṇa. Varṇa, we want to compare symptoms. The brāhmaṇas are this: satya, samaḥ, damaḥ, titikṣa, ārjavam, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). This is the symptom of brāhmaṇa. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you find these symptoms anywhere, he is a brāhmaṇa.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: And I as myself, just, as not somebody told me, just my...

Prabhupāda: Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. Kṛṣṇa never says...

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no. These four castes... Not caste. We say caste, but varṇāśrama varṇa. Varṇa. Anyway, it is division. That division, vibhāga, the exact word is "division," not "caste." How you can say caste, it is not there, difference? Division, these four divisions are there. So these divisions are not made by birth. Just like if you are a lawyer. So in the society there are lawyers, engineers, medical men, they are divisions. But these lawyers, medical men or engineers, they are not born as engineer or as lawyer. That is mistake. Anyone who is qualified by the real knowledge, he is a lawyer. Not by birth. Suppose a lawyer's son, a big, big lawyer's son, does it mean that he's lawyer?

Reporter: No. But this is what we have been (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: So you have been something mistake. That should not be accepted.

Reporter: Well, sir, you should know the problem all that there is a...

Prabhupāda: What is that problem?

Reporter: All the (indistinct), harijanas will (indistinct) you.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Reporter: If you proclaim that this is the real Hinduism, the people are getting fed up with Hinduism.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: What you are? "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Śivo 'ham is the beginning. Śivo 'ham, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is the beginning realization. Just like "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am this." Then you have to think over, then what is my duty? This perception that I am Śiva or Maṅgala, I am spirit soul, then what is my duty? I am working now with the bodily concept of life: "I am Indian," "I am Kashmiri," "I am this," "I am that." So when I realize that I am neither Kashmiri nor Indian nor this nor that, I am śivo 'ham, or brahmāsmi, or I am eternal servant of God, Kṛṣṇa, that is your pure. Tat-paratvena nirmalam. When you come to that understanding, śivo 'ham understanding, brahmāsmi understanding, or eternal servant of God understanding, then your duty begins. That is bhakti. So, therefore, bhakti is not on the material platform. Bhakti is on the spiritual platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
(BG 18.54)

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purifying everyone. This bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," they are forgetting. Just like in our society there are devotees from many religious sects, many countries, but they are nobody in that concept of life. They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." This is bhakti. This is spiritual platform. So far the material platform is concerned, there is already division. An intelligent class of men, the administrator class. Just like not all everyone is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I will not be interested. We are interested in different thing. So similarly, naturally there is a division.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: The administration is under the śūdra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained. As in business, we give training. Similarly, those who are going to take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brāhmaṇas, the śāstra, sādhu-śāstra-guru. And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there, simply the training is not there. Therefore, there is chaos.

Dr. Singh: There was a lot of chaos even in the old days when these divisions were there.

Prabhupāda: No, not so.

Dr. Singh: If you look at ancient history, it is one long story of massacres and wars and turmoil.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Singh: If you read (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) some thousands of years. But so far our Indian history goes, we had two wars only, big wars. One war was Rāvaṇa and Rāma, another was between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas after many millions of years passed.

Dr. Singh: There's only two recorded wars.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. It was recorded. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is sometimes fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world... Because India, or Bhāratavarṣa, means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut. This planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly it was known as Ilāvṛtavarṣa. Later on, after the ruling of Mahārāja Bharata... You know Mahārāja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. And up to the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this (indistinct).

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo:

Prabhupāda: But in our India... Of course, Lord Buddha was kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas were allowed to eat meat by hunting.

Dai Nippon representative: Hunting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because king—the kṣatriya means royal order-they, sometimes they had to kill somebody. If somebody is criminal, "Cut off his head." So in order to become powerful in cutting head, so they had to practice hunting. Yes. This hunting was allowed to the kṣatriyas. There are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. Four divisions means intelligent class, administrative class, mercantile class, and laborer class. So these kṣatriyas, they are royal order, giving protection to the citizens. And the brāhmaṇas giving good advice to the royal order. And the mercantile class, they work under the regulation of the royal order. And the worker class, they give simply service. (Japanese)

Dai Nippon representative: Year and a half ago, Mr. Tajima, he lose his son, twenty-eight years old.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I heard. In some accident?

Dai Nippon representative: By traffic accident.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dai Nippon representative: And since then Mr. Tajima has been very sad...

Prabhupāda: Religious.

Dai Nippon representative: ...because of his loving son was dead.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. He was the eldest son?

Room Conversation -- May 4, 1972, Mexico:

Martin: So there's something higher than human form?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Demigods. (Sanskrit) Generally three divisions: demigods, human beings and other than human beings.

Martin: Primitive cavemen?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Martin: Primitive cavemen?

Prabhupāda: No, not only cavemen: the animals, birds, beasts, other than.

Martin: Oh, I see. (more thunder)

Prabhupāda: But this human form of life is better than demigods' life because demigods, they are materially very opulent. Just like when the Americans came in India, they thought, "Demigods." Is it not?

Martin: The Indians thought. Hm.

Prabhupāda: Because they're better looking, good looking, intelligent, powerful. Similarly, just like this controller or director of this rain department is Indra. This thundering, it is under his direction this thundering is going on. He throws the thunderbolts and cracks the mountain, and then we get chunks. That is his business. As in government there are different departments, similarly, God has got different departments, and the in-charge of that department is demigod. Creation, that's Brahma; sustenance or maintenance, Himself, Viṣṇu; and dissolution, Lord Siva.

Conversation with the GBC -- May 25, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Whole world? Let me see. (reading) Southeast Asia, Australia, Japan, Korea, (indistinct), India, Central Asia, Mediterranean, Germany, Africa, South America, British Isles, Eastern Europe, Central Europe, Western Europe, (indistinct). So now you have to specifically mention Mediterranean means this. Similarly, all these center(?) should be specifically mentioned this.

Devotee: I was waiting till Śyāmasundara Prabhu came back.

Prabhupāda: Now so far division made by (indistinct), we are present. I'll represent him, that's all. And who else?

Devotee: Sudāmā Maharaja.

Prabhupāda: Eh? That was I'll represent. So...

Devotee: Gaurasundara.

Prabhupāda: Gaurasundara. He has been already agreed. Girirāja also. Those who are absent, I've written them. Now, so far Hayagrīva Prabhu is concerned, he has resigned from this. And he'll concentrate on editorial work. And Kīrtanānanda will become the president of New Vrindaban. So, that question is solved. Now, how the New Vrindaban will be managed, that we shall decide.

Devotee: We talked about that this morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So Hayagriva Prabhu is exit from GBC. And now others? Sudāmā is there. So one exit and one new one, Girirāja is there. And, how many of you are now existing actually?

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Ramakrishna Mission, they eat meat.

Guest (2): I don't think so.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Lucille: I don't know about the swamis, but I know a lot of the Vedāntists do.

Guest (2): That's news to me.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Vivekananda says, "What is that, meat-eating?" Kṛṣṇa says, makes division...

Guest (2): Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was the incarnation of Lord Rāma and Kṛṣṇa...

Prabhupāda: That is to Vivekananda, not to others.

Guest (2): Was he not realized?

Prabhupāda: That is another question. Don't bring controversial. If you have got Kṛṣṇa, what is the use of Ramakrishna? When you have got Kṛṣṇa original, why should you go to Ramakrishna? A shopkeeper says, "This is the same medicine, sir, but it is very cheap." But a real customer says, "No, I want the original. I don't want this imitation. Give me the original." Accepting Ramakrishna as incarnation, so why shall I go to incarnation when I have got Kṛṣṇa?

Guest (2): Like you said, guru you know. We go through...

Prabhupāda: There is paramparā. So there is symptoms of guru not that everyone becomes guru. These are controversial points. We don't want this. Why don't you give the ladies first, these ladies? (Hindi) Yes. I am old man. Old men, children, ladies, they must be first supplied. That's...

Morning Walk Conversation -- September 28, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Invisible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: They think that that which they can't perceive they can understand by mathematical laws and physical laws. They just discovered about the laws.

Prabhupāda: But there are so many laws, infinitum. The divisions, (indistinct) infinitum.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, all physical laws are discovered by mathematics. Beyond our imagination.

Prabhupāda: Just like in our childhood we were thinking a gramophone machine, how it can speak without a man? There must be a man within.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So everything comes to Śrīla Prabhupāda's..., that nice comment on the frog's philosophy, Dr. Frog. That is I think what's happening.

Jayatīrtha: Just like that man who was searching for the touchstone in the garbage heap (indistinct). How will I find a touchstone in the garbage heap? (indistinct) story on college campuses.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I put some posters in the campus for Long Beach engagement. Somebody was asking me, "What is this knowledge, transcendental knowledge?" "You should come and find out. Please come and find out."

Prabhupāda: Physics has nothing to do with spirit. (break) ...manufacture the subtle(?) parts of motorcar, easily you can go. So this rascal thinking this is advancement, says, "I am killing the soul. The soul is going to become a dog next life after riding motorcar." That is written, and they have no knowledge. But because you have advanced from bullock cart to motorcar, this is.... So rascal they are. They have no knowledge what is advancement. What is the time?

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Scholar: This divisions only in Hindus?

Prabhupāda: No, this division is meant for everyone.

Scholar: Mohammedans also accept this divisions?

Scholar: Yes. They're accepting. If you don't accept any scientific truth that is your business. That is your business. If you say-two plus two equal to four—"No I don't accept." That is your business. But two plus two equal to four, that is a fact everywhere. Now how these boys have accepted? Now they have got sacred thread, they have become brāhmaṇa.

Scholar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And they're acting actually as brāhmaṇa. There are many Mohammedans also. You came from Mohammedan. So it is the process of presenting the perfect educational system. Then everyone will accept. Any intelligent man will accept. It is a science. So you have to push this scientific movement throughout the whole world. That is our program. It is not a so-called Hindu cult or a Indian cult. No. It is science to be accepted by everyone if he at all wants to, I mean to say, purify or make his life perfect. Otherwise, he's in darkness. He does not know what he's going to accept another body. He has to accept another body, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). It does not say that this kind of body, dehāntaram, another body. Not..., it is up to you to select what kind of body I am going to accept. I am going to become a cat or dog or a demigod or a big man or a... They do not know yet. This science is unknown to the whole world. We are trying to push on this scientific movement. This is our position. So if you want to cooperate with this scientific movement, then we are prepared. But if you have some other idea, that is different thing. But if we take it seriously as a scientific movement, then we are prepared to cooperate. And if (you) should do, simply formality will not help us.

Conversation with Sridhara Maharaja -- June 27, 1973, Navadvipa:

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya devī-maheśa-hari-dhāma... (Bs. 5.43). (Bengali) About our temple contemplation, it will be almost a skyscraper building.

Bhavānanda: Will be.

Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Eh?

Prabhupāda: Skyscraper building in temple shape, with four divisions. Goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya devī-maheśa... (Bs. 5.43). So Maheśa-dhāma, how it will be depicted? Pārvatī-wise. (?)

Śrīdhara Mahārāja: It has been already described by Sanātana Gosvāmī in Bṛhad-Bhāgavatāmṛtam. After crossing Brahmaloka,

Prabhupāda: There is Maheśa-dhāma, in between.

Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Maheśa-dhāma. And the devotee, Śiva is devotee.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is... Śiva's devotional prayer is there in Fourth Canto, about the four sons. What are those?

Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Devī-dhāma. Virajā to virajā, nirviśeṣa. The last conception or the highest conception of Devī-dhāma is what are the conception of virajā; prakṛti ends there... Then begins...

Prabhupāda: Kāraṇa, kāraṇārṇava.

Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Kāraṇa, kāraṇārṇava. Then it begins Brahmaloka, the halo of the spiritual world.

Prabhupāda: Effulgence. Yes.

Room Conversation with David Wynne, Sculptor -- July 9, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That king should be a representative of God. That is ideal king. But if he thinks that "This kingdom is my property, and let me enjoy for my sense enjoyment," then it is all gone. If he thinks himself as representative of God... Just like we think. Therefore we are after our disciples: "Do this, do that, do that, do that." We want to see that my disciples also become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Similarly, it is the king's duty to see that every citizen becomes God conscious. Then he is representative of God. That is the first duty. The division must be there, and the, it is the duty of the king to see that everyone is discharging according to his responsibility. That is king's duty. A brāhmaṇa is acting exactly like brāhmaṇa. The kṣatriya is acting exactly like kṣatriya. A vaiśya is... Like that. It is the duty of a king to see that nobody's unemployed, everyone is engaged in his own occupational duty. That is the... And they must feel security of life, property, anxiety. That is perfect king. Here, at the present moment, nobody is confident whether he'll live after an hour or... You see. Anyone can take your property and life, at any moment. There is no protection. There is no protection. And so far anxiety, there is no length and breadth. People are always full of anxieties. Unemployment. These things should not be there. No unemployment, no anxiety, no feelings of insecurity. And that is good government. Nowadays there are police force. But what is the use of this police force? You go on the street, somebody stabs you, what police can do? If somebody takes away your money from your personal pocket, what the police can do? They'll take some note.

Śyāmasundara: That's right. If ...one boy who stole from us, I told the police. We told them exactly where he was, at the airport, Manchester. "He's going on flight such and such to America tomorrow." Plenty of time to apprehend him. They didn't do anything.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Conversation with Mr. Wadell -- July 10, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. And you cannot understand your father by any other process. This is the only process. That means things which are unknown, beyond our conception, you have to know it through the authority. Just like you know your father through the authority of your mother.

Mr. Wadell: Oh, yes, I agree. But...

Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that things which are beyond our imagination cannot be known. You cannot say that. Can be known, provided you have got the real process.

Mr. Wadell: I'm afraid I must make, so far as I am concerned, a clear division between what I know and what I believe. There are certain things... It is maybe, partly a use of words, but whereas I know that I am here and that I have people in..., I am in the same room with other men...

Prabhupāda: Do you think that this process, as I have suggested, to know one's father through the authority of the mother is not perfect?

Mr. Wadell: Oh, well, I think it's as near perfect as you can get.

Prabhupāda: Why you say, "as near"? Why still doubt?

Mr. Wadell: Because it is not quite the same thing as my knowing that I am here. There's a famous French philosopher who began all his philosophy from the phrase "I am conscious; therefore I know that I exist." And he deduced everything, you know, starting from here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. You are conscious, I am conscious, that's a fact. It is not the question of belief. It is not question of belief. Belief may be wrong, but fact is fact.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest (1) (young British woman): What was the meaning in that?

Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura, they belong to kṣatriya class. Brāhmaṇa... According to Vedic conception, there are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra. So next to brāhmaṇa is the kṣatriya. So this Ṭhākura title is given to the kṣatriyas, administrator class. Yes. (pause, Prabhupāda chants japa softly) So in your library you are keeping our books? No. All books?

Guest (2) (young British man): Well, not all of them. We don't have room to keep all.

Prabhupāda: Hm. (pause) So you have known something about our movement?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have also known?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: No?

Guest (1): No, I came as a Christian, not knowing anything. I still don't know really anything.

Prabhupāda: Our movement is to revive God consciousness. Just like a man is sleeping, and he has got some engagement, say, in the morning, at six o'clock. But still he's sleeping. So somebody is trying to awake him. "Get up, get up! You have got this engagement. You have..." Our movement is like that. The human society is sleeping. So we are just trying to awake them: "Get up. Get up. You have got this engagement." That is our business. It is not our manufactured business, but it is stated in the Vedic literature, uttiṣṭha jāgratā prāpta-varān nibodhata. "Now you be awakened." "Now" means "You have got this human form of life. You can now be awakened." In animal form of life there is no possibility. Therefore, in the human form of life, one should be awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: And so... Real intelligence is that to know "what I am." "I do not want to suffer. Why suffering in this world is imposed upon me?" This is intelligence. Take, for example, nobody wants to die. Why death is forced upon him? Nobody wants to die. If there is now news immediately, "Now this house will collapse," immediately we shall fly away. Because we don't want to die. If we understand that this house is going to be bombed immediately, we'll immediately leave. If there is earthquake... So many things. So nobody wants to die. But death is sure. So what solution they have made? I do not want to die, and death is forced upon me. So what solution we have made. What is, what is the scientists have done in this connection? Psychologically, if I do not want to die, then I must find out some way that death will not bother me. That is intelligence. You are talking of intelligence. Therefore I am explaining what is intelligence. Intelligence means "I do not want something, but it is being forced upon me. How to check it?" That is intelligence. Actually, the whole world is going on, we do not want to suffer. But suffering is there. Three kinds of suffering. One kind of suffering is called pertaining to the body and mind. I don't want to be diseased, but there is, all of a sudden, there is disease. Diarrhea. I don't want it, but it is imposed. This is suffering. Due to the body. Some discrepancies. Mind... Body's sound, but mind is not sound. Mind is "Oh, I don't feel today very nice." You see. This is one kind of suffering. Another suffering: other living creature gives you some pains. There are so many. Some of your friends, he turns to become your enemy. He puts you in difficulty. Or there are so many animals, so many insects. They give us trouble. This is one kind of suffering. Another kind of suffering: by nature's... All of sudden, there is drought. Now, just like, all, in India there is drought. They are suffering. No rain. All of a sudden there is earthquake. That is also suffering. There is some epidemic, pestilence. You cannot check it. So in this way, either of these three, sufferings going on. But those who are sleeping, they cannot understand that this is suffering. Just like animals. They cannot understand. That is sleeping stage. And when one is awakened, he will think "I don't want all these sufferings. Why they are imposed upon me? How I can avoid?" That is intelligence. So human being, unless he comes to this platform of intelligence, he is animal. The animal cannot do any remedy. You take one animal to the slaughterhouse. He cannot do anything. So sleeping means to remain in ignorance. And awakened stage means in knowledge. So intelligence means one must have knowledge. That is intelligence. So this division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—means the highest intelligent class man is called brāhmaṇa. He knows.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That, that, that, that... Suppose you are washing the floor of the temple. It is not external. Because there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's washing the floor or washing the dishes for Kṛṣṇa. So the consciousness is there. So actually, our life is consciousness. If your full consciousness is only for God, then you remain always godly. There is no doubt about it. If you make division, "so much for worldly and so much for godly," then there is difference. But if you dovetail everything towards the service of the Lord, then anything you do, that is godly.

Father Tanner: Would you think it is possible to hate the Deity?

Prabhupāda: Hate?

Father Tanner: Hate the Deity?

Prabhupāda: Why?

Father Tanner: Is it possible?

Prabhupāda: No, a devotee cannot hate the Deity. How he... Then how he can serve?

Father Tanner: Because you can see the Deity as too strong, repressive, taking away your freedom, your own wishes...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Father Tanner: ... and so you can come to hate the Deity.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So does it mean to say that because we require necessary, we have to take education of medical man?

Mother: But you don't train people to be medical men.

Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we can get it easily...

Mother: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Our training is... First of all, try to understand. We... Just like you have got four divisions in the body for maintaining the body. So the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. The leg is doing its own work, walking. The hand is doing its own work. And the belly's doing its own work. And the brain is doing own work. It does not mean that when the brain is work, it does not require the help of the leg. But a brain does not require to learn the business of the leg. This is the idea. The brain requires the help of the leg. But does not mean that brain has to learn how to walk also.

Mother: Well, I'm a nurse, and so that is why I would like...

Prabhupāda: So there must be division of work. So you take from... When there is necessity of brain work, you take help from him. And when there is need of the walking, take leg, help from the leg. It is a cooperation. Not that everyone has to learn everything.

Mother: Yes. Well, as I say...

Prabhupāda: It does not...

Mother: I myself did a training. I became a nurse.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking this brain to learn how to walk? Why you are asking this odd question?

Mother: Well, my brain works and I also, if there was a war tomorrow, I could go and be a nurse and look after the sick...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right.

Mother: ...and still be with God.

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. There are four divisions. So one division can take help of the other division. That is another thing. But you are asking that, "You are simply interested in brain. Why not for the leg?" But we are interested. But not in that way. When we can see that I can pay for the medical man and I can get the help, why shall I waste my time to become a medical man.

Mother: I think it's so sad to see a lot of very good...

Prabhupāda: No, no. Just, just try to understand this point.

Mother: ...young men becoming cabbages.

Prabhupāda: They're misunderstanding. Yes. When I can get... Just like here is father. He's trained up how to preach. He's not a medical man. But he doesn't require to learn the medical science.

Mother: No, but I didn't ask you to be a doctor. I said some of your boys.

Prabhupāda: Why... Why you are asking? My boys are the same.

Revatīnandana: Which ones? Which ones of us should become doctors here?

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Mother: Yes, well, if you had an epidemic of smallpox...

Revatīnandana: No. No, no.

Mother: ...or typhoid, you... You know what smallpox is like in India.

Prabhupāda: Presupposing. There must be division.

Revatīnandana: Do you go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to become a doctor?

Mother: It'd be no good at all being priest if you had smallpox, would it?

Revatīnandana: So therefore you do that. You go to your seminary and take one boy from each class to be a doctor. By force. "Now, you come..."

Prabhupāda: We are treating them.

Revatīnandana: "...and be a doctor." They all want to be preachers.

Mother: You've got to have balance, balance otherwise. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Balance, this is balance. Let us... You, you take some students and train them as medical man. But I am training to become preachers. Why you interfere with my business? You do your own business.

Mother: Well, my son is my business.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So your son, your son is not dependent on you. He's independent.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Then?

Mother: Until afterwards, and we found him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mother: And this is it.

Prabhupāda: So there must be division for upkeep of the soc... That is missing. At the present moment, there is no division.

Mother: But he had a false religious experience, due to the LSD.

Prabhupāda: No, I am talking generally, not of him, that everything must be, there must be division. Just like naturally we have got division. The whole object is to keep the body fit, but there is division: the head division, the arm division, the stomach division, and the leg division. So similarly, there must be four classes of men in the society: the intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men, and the laborer class of men. Everything is required. But not that the intelligent class of man has to learn the business of the laborer class of men. That is not required. Just try to understand. The laborer class of men, they are required. But one who is intelligent class, he, he cannot be trained up as laborer, ordinary laborer in the factory. That is mistake. He must work according to his capacity. If he's intelligent, he must be preacher, he must be God conscious. He would educate people that "This eating, sleeping is not all. There is God. You should understand. You have got a relationship with Him. If you want to have better life next, then you must become God conscious, you must be sinless." These things are required in the society. (loud noise of jet going over). What is the use of talking?

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Mother: Father, I understand that you have translated ten books.

Prabhupāda: Now again. Again the same question.

Mother: Is it not...?

Prabhupāda: I say that there must be divisions. We are working on certain division.

Mother: Well, tell me about the books you have translated. Are there some more to translate?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mother: Well, one day you will die. Now who will translate them then? Continue the translating?

Prabhupāda: There are many. There are many. They are being trained up. There are many.

Mother: Ah, yes. So people are being trained. Ah. This is what I'm asking you.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Well, I explained that to you earlier, that we have our classes.

Prabhupāda: We are training every day.

Mother: But then, this is languages. You've got to, you've got to study languages. You can't just be taught...

Revatīnandana: Yes. So a few of us, so the few of us who have an aptitude for Sanskrit language are studying Sanskrit language.

Room Conversation with Mister Popworth and E. F. Schumacher -- July 26, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That's all. And that God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). God is the supreme pure. You cannot approach God, you cannot understand God, in impure condition. And without God consciousness, there cannot be any purification. You try to understand this simple fact, that without God consciousness, you may prescribe so many things—they will be all failure, all failure. And God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. This is the problem. Now you can think over it.

Schumacher: I agree with that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathe... (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, how to become a brāhmaṇa, how to become a kṣatriya, how to become a vaiśya, how to become a śūdra, or how to remain less important than the śūdras. The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly... (end)

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Yogeśvara: He asks: In our society do these four divisions also exist?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Yogeśvara: In ISKCON, are there these four divisions?

Prabhupāda: No, we are transcendental to all these material divisions. This is material division.

Yogeśvara: In that case, in which of these four divisions are we?

Prabhupāda: First-class. That is the beginning. But we go above the first-class. (break) Similarly, socially also, you must have four divisions. The reason is the material nature is working under three divisions, goodness, passion and ignorance. In our body also, the brain is working under goodness quality. The arm is working under the influence of passion. The belly is working in between passion and ignorance. And the leg is working under ignorance. Leg cannot work unless there is direction by the brain. At the present moment, the society's working under the influence of passion and ignorance. The brain is lacking now. Therefore we are creating Kṛṣṇa conscious men who has got real brain. Intelligent class of men. So other classes of men who are acting under influence of passion and ignorance, they should take direction from us. And for our directing business, we don't charge anything. And if they follow our direction, they have no loss.

Bhagavān: It can be tested.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: It is already there. He is professor, why? (laughter) That is their rascaldom. They are doing the same thing. But still they are decrying the process. Why you have become professor? You remain ordinary worker. There is no need of professor. Why he has become professor of Indology? And there is two, amongst the workers also, there are two classes, manager class, worker class. You have to divide. Without division... (break) Just like this body is not a lump of matter. There is division. Without division, the body cannot work.

Yogeśvara: So that's no excuse that there is...

Prabhupāda: That means... these rascals, they have simply imperfect knowledge. Still, they are leader. That is our protest. That why you become leader? You have got so many imperfections. Why you are cheating people? That is our protest. You have no perfect knowledge. Still, you become leader. Why? Why you are cheating men like that? Just like the professor who was speaking that by four, combination of four chemicals, life has come. And as soon as he was challenged that: "If I give you these four chemicals, whether you can produce life?" He said: "That I cannot say." Then what is the use of speaking like that? So they're cheating, and people are being cheated. Still, they're given Nobel Prize. "Oh, here is a big man." They'll talk all nonsense. At, at the same time, they'll become professor, teacher. And people will accept. So at least let us protest against this system.

Bhagavān: Guru-gaurāṅga, that kīrtana's too loud downstairs. There was a professor who came to see you in London, the religion professor.

Haṁsadūta: Professor Hardin.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Śocati means in everything he laments. "Hai hai, I have lost so much things, I have not these things, I have not that thing." So at the present moment, all the people, they are so dissatisfied that they are all śūdras. Śūdra is always in want. So who is not, at the present moment, not in want? Everybody's in want. Therefore everybody is a śūdra now. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. And that is his qualification, always feeling in want, śocati. And his work is to serve others, master. A brāhmaṇa will not work under anybody. A kṣatriya will not work under anybody. Nowadays the industrial development has taken place because people are śūdras. They want some service. So-called technologists and laborers, and everything. Everyone is searching after good job. He cannot live independently, just like a dog. A dog cannot live independently. He must have a master. Then he is happy. Is it not? Otherwise it is street dog. So modern education is that they are creating śūdras, to become dependent on others. And therefore modern economic development is taking place because there are so many people, they are prepared to give them service. Suppose in your bank, if you withdraw from the service, the bank will stop. Industry will stop. So because there is no such division as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Everyone is śūdra. Therefore this economic development, so-called economic development, has become possible. But in spite of all this economic development, because people are śūdras, they cannot be happy. Because śocati, they will lament, strike. Even they are getting thousands of rupees, strike. Even they get five hundred thousands of rupees, still there will be strike. Because they are śūdras.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even the doctors are going on strike now.

Morning Walk -- December 5, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: He's put separately so that he may not poison others. He may not poison others. So that is the position of the self-sufficient authority.

Yaśomatīnandana: In Gujarati we call it: bhanji moti laksmim.(?) When the palm is closed it is worth lakh rupees, but when it is open, it doesn't mean anything. A foolish person, when he talks, he reveals everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Foolish person means busy rascal. There are four kinds of division: lazy intelligent and busy intelligent and lazy rascal and busy rascal. The first-class man is lazy intelligent, and second class, busy intelligent, and third class, lazy rascal, and fourth class, busy rascal. A rascal, if he's busy, then what he will do? He'll simply do harm. That's all.

Karandhara: Create havoc.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: Create havoc.

Prabhupāda: Havoc, create havoc. Just as they are doing now. All rascals, they are very busy.

Yaśomatīnandana: Creating atom bombs.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: ...it will be constituted, that. Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they'll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll not be saved. The varṇāśrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varṇāśrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brāhmaṇa; one class, kṣatriya; one class, vaiśya; and one class, śūdra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the śūdras.

Passerby: Jayo!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhagavān: Are śūdras supposed to take sannyāsa also?

Prabhupāda: No, why?

Bhagavān: Śūdras...

Prabhupāda: Those who are śūdras, they should not be allowed to take sannyāsa. Only those who are qualified brāhmaṇas, they'll be allowed to take sannyāsa.

Bhagavān: Kṣatriyas used to take sannyāsa too?

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas... Some of them. Not all.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?

Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was acting as a kṣatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaiśya. But Kṛṣṇa is neither kṣatriya nor, nor brāhmaṇa. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaiśya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kṣatriya. He was marrying as a kṣatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kṣatriya, sometimes as vaiśya, but He's neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa...

Nitāi: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Nitāi: What should the kṣatriyas be taught?

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight. This is kṣatriya's business. There may be fight. Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa..." No. They must come forward. "Yes, we are prepared to fight." That is kṣatriya.

Tamāla-Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Doesn't matter. But manage, for management, this division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement. Yes. A Vaiṣṇava coming to the position of doing the work of a śūdra does not mean he has become śūdra. He's Vaiṣṇava. Try to understand this point. Just like in the stage. If you want to play something, one must be king, one must be queen, one must be..., but neither of them king or queen. That is stage play. Similarly to manage things in the material world we have to... Guṇa, karma. Karma there must be. Therefore the karma should be done, executed, according to quality.

Ātreya-ṛṣi: So in our Movement, the leaders must decide how every devotee and every resource is engaged properly.

Prabhupāda: That is leadership. That is leadership. The... Which man is fitted for which work.

Ātreya-ṛṣi: Yes. Utilization of all resources...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya-ṛṣi: ...including devotees and funds and everything.

Prabhupāda: Then... The first thing is that we should see that everyone is engaged. How he should be engaged, that requires leadership. But the first business is to engage everyone. Nobody should be without engagement. Then it will be idle worse, works... What do you call? Idle brain is devil's workshop. And the devil is kāminī-kāñcana, woman and money. This is devil. So if you remain idle, then you shall think of devil. So we should see that everyone is engaged properly. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...instruction in this connection is very important. Everyone should be trained as Vaiṣṇava. At the same time, he should work in different position for management. So if our men are not prepared—Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja—for doing the plowing work, then what is the use of purchasing land?

Morning Walk -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) (break)

Bhagavān: ...the society would go to the gurukula, and there it would be decided what their work would be?

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all there should be an instructor on the spiritual life, then according to his position... Our spiritual life is meant, we should always remember... But for management we have to make divisions. That is...

Devotee: Actually the whole society could be Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Ah. They're Vaiṣṇava. But because they have got to live in the material world, there must be division of work. If everyone wants to become the brain, who will act as leg? That is also required. If everyone says, "No, no, I'm not going to do the work of leg. I want simply to work as..." No. It is needed. The brain is needed, the hand is needed, the belly is needed, the leg is needed. So that we have to divide. Who will work as brain, who will work as hand, who will work as leg... The main aim is how to maintain this body perfectly, fit. That should be the aim, how the society will go on nicely. And for management, this hand, leg, brain, belly must be divided. Just like there's slight difference, those who are directly engaged in temple worship and those who are going to sell books. Apparently there's difference, but basically there is no difference. Like that. If one can sell books nicely, why he should be, I mean to say, engaged in the temple worship? He can do better work in that way. But there is no difference between selling the books and temple worship. Or washing the dish. There's no difference, because it is all transcendental. Just like aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛttimanti. Kṛṣṇa's hands and legs, there's no difference. You've read this verse?

Morning Walk -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That is important. Otherwise every work is preaching. See that everyone is engaged. There was an advertisement by the railroad department, their monogram was a wheel of carriage and they have written that every employee of the railroad should see that the wheel is running on. Wheel is running on. Now suppose in the office the clerks are working, so how they will see the wheel is running on? Because in the office of railway there is some complaint, there is some claim, there so many things... But that is depending on their wheel. So they should expedite their business so that wheel may not stop, it must go on. It is very nice instruction. So the wheel is going on. Suppose some station has asked for ten wagons immediately, and that requires the sanction of the divisional superintendent. That is his office. So the clerk should help the progress that immediately the sanction is done. Then the wheel will go on. Do you understand? So everyone can help that the railway wheel is going on. Although apparently it will appear that "What this clerk has to do with the wheel going on?" Is it clear?

Bhagavān: So there's so much to do in Kṛṣṇa's service, everyone can be engaged in some...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that everyone should know... Suppose one is engaged in cooking prasādam. You should see that nice prasādam is served to the worker, quickly, so they can take prasādam, be healthy and go on preaching. So he is helping preaching by cooking. Just like you are working and the brain is also working, "Go this side, go that side, the car is coming." Brain says, the... "Leg, come this side." Everyone is working. The leg is working, the brain is working, the hand is working, the tongue is working. But the business of the tongue and business of the leg is different. The aim being, the central point being Kṛṣṇa, to help, to serve Him, then everything is work, absolute. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they cannot understand it. They think that "Kṛṣṇa is working like ordinary man. How He can become God? It is māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is also māyā." Therefore we called them Māyāvādī.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Eh? Not necessarily.

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why?

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessary. So in this varṇāśrama college there would be two divisions, varṇa and āśr... Learning a materia...

Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa. And āśrama, then, when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then āśrama. Āśrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varṇa is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varṇa is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them āśrama. Varṇāśrama. That is later on.

Hṛdayānanda: First they should be taught a skill.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varṇas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varṇas, there will be no question of unemployment.

Hṛdayānanda: But from the very beginning there should be taught Bhagavad-gītā and...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad-gītā?

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.

Hṛdayānanda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varṇāśrama, say, the first teacher at the varṇāśrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to...

Prabhupāda: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varṇāśrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.

Viṣṇujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brāhmaṇas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Viṣṇujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right. He is brāhmaṇa, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing.

Hṛdayānanda: It's not that one teacher has to teach everything.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh, I see. So a brāhmaṇa teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hṛdayānanda: Oh. It's very exciting, Prabhupāda, because all the, at the present time in the...

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Shall we go back?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The animals, they do not know. (break) They do not know it, that "We have to satisfy the Supreme Viṣṇu." So unless the society comes to this consciousness that "We have to satisfy the Supreme," that is not human society. Now, how they will understand? Therefore four divisions.

Dr. Patel: Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Prabhupāda: Guṇa... Yes. So if the four divisions work nicely, then it is healthy society. Otherwise it is not. If different parts of your body work nicely, then you are healthy.

Dr. Patel: Each section of the society has to, I mean, work as a...

Prabhupāda: For the maintenance.

Dr. Patel: ...part of the whole.

Prabhupāda: Whole, yes. That doesn't matter whether you are śūdra or brāhmaṇa. Your aim should be how to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is perfect.

Morning Walk -- April 10, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...even the richest man, their wife has no bangles. You see? And they are jewelries. Jewelries. Cow, butter, throwing butter like anything, and silk sari and enough food grains. What is more want for material advancement? That is real material ad... You have got everything, material needs. (break) If a man can feed his wife and children, then he is successful. There is no question of charity. There is no question of charity. But here it is said they were also giving in charity. (break) ...stopped to become real brāhmaṇa and give instruction to the society, and they also stopped giving charity to the brāhmaṇas. So therefore the society is so fallen. There is no instruction from the brāhmaṇas and no charity from the kṣatriya and vaiśya. (break) ...proṣita bhārtṛkā. By the dress a woman is recognized. When she does not dress very nicely, it is to be understood that her husband is out of home. When there is the vermillion, that means she is married. When the, what is called, division? Siti. Siti is in this side, then she is prostitute. The dress, when the woman dresses with white dress, they are widow, no husband. Yes, in this way by dress...

Indian man: Yes. You can recognize here. But now they are changed completely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When the girl has no this covering, that means she is virgin. She is not married. In this way all the signs are there. This is prosita bhartrka. Prosita-bhartrka means one whose husband is not at home, outside. Then she will not dress, she will not take regular bath, so that people may know that her husband is not at home.

Śrīdhara: She won't take bath?

Prabhupāda: Not, take bath not with any oil. Yes. Means she wanted to avoid very good looking. Yes, that is the idea.

Śrīdhara: "But although Rohiṇī's husband was away, she still dressed herself on this occasion."

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...that qualification, satya, always truthful. (break)

Girirāja: "...violent and they never claimed any false prestige. They were all bona fide brāhmaṇas, and there was no reason to think that their blessings would be useless."

Prabhupāda: (break) ...social divisions. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The other varṇas, they would give simply to the brāhmaṇas charity. And the brāhmaṇas were so advanced that simply by their blessing, they will get all benefit. So there must be a class of men who can actually benefit simply by blessing and the society must maintain them. This is real society. And everyone is śūdra, engaged in technology—then what benefit you will get? Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. There must be a brahminical class, a kṣatriya class, a vaiśya class, a śūdra class. Not that all śūdras. Then what will be going on? That is the condition. Everyone is being educated as śūdra. Then what benefit you will get? That is the defect. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Therefore there must be a brahminical class.

Indian Man (2): Selfless class.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Advanced in knowledge, who can teach other people nicely. And they can guide. There must be. That brāhmaṇa means spiritual guidance, kṣatriya means material guidance. So these things are necessity. But where are those brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas? They are training everyone śūdra. Work hard like hogs and dogs and fill up your hungry belly. That's all. This is the modern civilization. (break) ...Kali-yuga's symptoms: dakṣyam udaraṁ bharitaḥ. One man is supposed to be very expert who has learned how to fill up his belly. That's all. No other knowledge is required. Whether you have sumptuously put foodstuff within your belly. And then it is... You are very expert person. (break) ...saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). That is mentioned in the śāstra, that those who have got good brain, in this age they will perform this yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Sumedhasaḥ. Others they will bother with so many things, but this yajña should be introduced, and people should be engaged in performing this yajña. Then everything will be all right. (break) Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14).

Morning Walk -- April 16, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu-tattva. They are viṣṇu-tattva. They are the spirit soul, they are varieties. Mamaivāṁśa. Just like aṁśa. Suppose if you break one brick, some fragments come out. All the fragments are not of the same size. There are different size. Similarly, although all the living entities are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, their constitution of impotence are different. (break) There are divisions, divisions, subdivisions. Yes.

Dr. Patel: But final, the main group is this.

Prabhupāda: (break) ...teṣv avasthitaḥ. Mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go on.

Girirāja: "The residents had no knowledge of what had happened. After entering the village Vṛndāvana, all the calves entered their respective cowsheds and the boys also went to their respective mothers and homes." (break)

Prabhupāda: My younger sister, up to seven years she was sucking my mother's breast.

Dr. Patel: We, as medical men, advise not to, I mean, allow the boys...

Prabhupāda: She would not leave mother. I have seen it.

Dr. Patel: One year is the maximum time we allow. And the Americans dogs don't allow them to suckle because they spoil their... (break)

Prabhupāda: Baby's food.

Dr. Patel: And in Australia they give breast to the children or they give baby food? Yes. They are near to us.

Morning Walk Excerpts -- May 1, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Even if you receive at home your enemy, you shall treat him in such a way that he is not afraid. Akuto 'bhayam. That "I have come to the house of enemy and he can do me harm at any time," no. He should be received in such a way that he will be completely free from these thoughts, that "I am his enemy."

Dr. Patel: These Arabs were well known about receiving these guests like that, but they have learned from India.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they were all Indians. All this land... Now just like they have become Pakistan. They were Indians, Hindu. Because we degraded in our culture, the divisions, the so many divisions... Otherwise whole world are under Vedic culture. As soon as the brāhmaṇas and the..., or kṣatriyas, they degenerated, the whole society disrupted.

Dr. Patel: Now the brāhmaṇa is trying to regenerate.

Prabhupāda: Now he is above brāhmaṇa. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He is brahma-bhūtaḥ, not brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: At the present moment there is all over the world... We are touring all over the world. It is very hard to find out ideal class of men. That is the defect. In the Vedic culture the ideal class of men were the brāhmaṇas. Their qualification was: truthful, self-controlled, mind and the senses, and then tolerant, very simple life, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life and full faith in God. These are ideal character. But such men are not available at the present moment. So therefore the social idealism is defective. Just like in your body, there are four divisions. The head, the arm, the belly and the leg. If the head is spoiled then you are a madman. In spite of possessing hands and bellies and legs, you cannot work properly. So at the present moment the heads are spoiled. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. People, advanced in education, still they are inimical, one man to another. If you are passing on in the street, the gentleman's house there is a signboard, "Beware of the dogs. Don't come in," because he cannot believe anyone. You go to the airport, any high-class standard man. They search out the pocket. So nobody is believable. So this is the result of modern education. You cannot find out an ideal character man.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Just let me finish. So United Nation is taking care of the fourth class department of the society. What they are taking care of the first-class department? That is my question?

Nitāi: He is asking what are they doing to care for that first division.

Prabhupāda: At the present moment in the society, there is very, very little care for the first-class intellectual class of men.

C. Hennis: The International Labor Organization has as one of its major aims to promote social justice, and that means that every class of worker, if you like to accept the four categories that you mentioned—the intellectual, the productive, the protective, and the laboring classes-should each have their proper place in society, should each have a full measure of human dignity, and should each have a proper share in the rewards for labor, both clearly material rewards and honors and dignity and leisure and time for, free time for meditation and so on. In the International Labor Organization, we are not like UNESCO devoted to the more philosophical and cultural and educational aspects for the intelligentsia, but I would draw your attention to the fact that the UNESCO is very much concerned with looking after the head part of society.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is my request to you.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: You cannot say, "I can do any kind of work." I can give you advice about spiritual life, but if you require medical advice, then you have to go to somebody else. You cannot expect medical advice from me. So this is not a fact, that everyone can do everything. No.

C. Hennis: No, no, I agree. I agree.

Prabhupāda: There must be division. There must be division, and each division must be maintained very nicely. Then the whole society is all right.

C. Hennis: That I would agree with. And my organization...

Yogeśvara: Perhaps one difference is that when we speak about the first-class, or the head division, the intellectual class, we are speaking about a class that is people who belong to that class by qualification, not simply that they have some title, that they are professor or that they are scholar. They have to be properly qualified.

C. Hennis: It's difficult to be a professor or a doctor unless you may have some type of qualification.

Yogeśvara: Well, he says it's difficult to be any kind of doctor or professor unless you are properly qualified.

Prabhupāda: No, from this point of... He is right. Unless he has got the medical degrees, unless he is educated... We also say that thing, that unless one is sufficiently educated in medical science or legal science, he cannot be said a medical man or a legal man.

Room Conversation with Monsieur Roost, Hatha-yogi -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.

M. Roost: But I want to know from...

Prabhupāda: It is a little technical subject, so translation. We... Our Bhagavad-gītā, there is yoga practice also. So we approve this yoga practice. There is no doubt. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogis, they also sees the Absolute Truth by meditation within the mind. So this process is approved process, and there are divisions. Sagarbha-yogī, nirgarbha-yogī (?). So what is your special subject matter of yoga?

M. Roost: I try to make a yoga with understanding from occident... I saw that occidental people is more intellectual, and I don't understand very easily the karma-yoga. The dynamics and... I don't understand we must work without, without goal, without intention, without personal intention. And I try to show through the practice of haṭha-yoga that posture and prāṇāyāma and concentration. I try to...

Prabhupāda: Beginning from abdomen?

M. Roost: The kind of meditation I learned in India with Swami Satyananda, it's a few different type meditation.

Prabhupāda: They begin from the abdomen, maṇipūraka, maṇipūraka. And then the intestines. They come to the heart; then ultimately, to the brahma-randhra. This practice?

M. Roost: Yes, it's a practice of kuṇḍalinī-yoga, but very, very temperate, moderate. It is not the kuṇḍalinī-yoga with strong prāṇāyāma. It's more a question of conscious of awareness of breathing and...

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Just like by nature there are four division in the body—the brain, the arm, the belly, and..., all of them required... You cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmaṇas are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā.

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Prabhupāda: So their qualification, brāhmaṇa qualification, find out. Page?

Nitāi: It's eight twelve.

Yogeśvara: Eight twelve?

Prabhupāda: 812.

Yogeśvara: (reads verse 18.42 in French)

Swiss Man (2): (French)

Yogeśvara: He says, "Does this Kṛṣṇa consciousness message apply as well to the outcastes?"

Prabhupāda: Outcaste? There are four castes only.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras. They are called pañcamas. These are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas, or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas, the fifth class men are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable. So they are also many: kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). There is... Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya.

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Prabhupāda: Read it.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there is no such distinction because we are interested with the soul. The soul is the same everywhere and these designations are different. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is above designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). One is freed from all designation. Actually, on the spiritual level, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, anyone who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is above all these divisions. Sa guṇān samatītya. Find out. Māṁ ca avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate, sa guṇān...

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Nitāi:

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa guṇān samatītyaitān
brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
(BG 14.26)

"One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Living, any living. We are all living beings. We are in different dresses. Just like you are European; you have got a different dress. I am an Indian; I have got a different dress. But dress is not consideration. You are a human being; I am a human being. Similarly, all the living entities, they are dressed in 8,400,000's of dresses. But they are living being. And all the living beings are part and parcel of God.

M. Roche-dieu: (French) Life is a whole view, and there is no division between animals and man.

Prabhupāda: Spiritually advanced man, God conscious, there is no such distinction that "Here is an animal; here is a man." He sees that spirit soul is there in the animal and in the man, in the tree, in the plant, in the aquatics, the same spirit soul. Read that.

Nitāi:

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
(BG 14.4)

"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So any material thing is chedya, you can cut. Any material thing. The five kinds of material things, earth, water, air, you can cut it into divisions. Or it can be burned. It can be evaporated. Or it can be moistened. These things are material things. But the spiritual means just opposite. It cannot be cut. It cannot be dried up. It cannot be moistened. It..., so many things. And that is... We mean anti-matter. Just opposite. Which is possible in the physical world, but is not possible in the spiritual world. That we say anti-matter. But your anti-matter is another matter.

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Another matter.

Robert Gouiran: Another state of matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Robert Gouiran: It is a state of matter which does not exist in our universe, in our solar system.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. But it is another material conception. And our anti-matter is... This is described. It cannot be cut, it cannot be dried up, it cannot be moistened, it cannot be... So many things. Which is possible in any material thing.

Robert Gouiran: That's the definition of energy.

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: There is nothing material before Kṛṣṇa. Because everything's coming from Kṛṣṇa. One who does not know Kṛṣṇa, it is material. One who knows Kṛṣṇa, it is spiritual. Hm.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "O best amongst the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord Hari."

Prabhupāda: That's it. You may be scientist, you may be something else, but if you try to satisfy the Supreme Lord by your occupation, that is perfection. That is perfection. Read the purport.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Human society all over the world is divided into four castes and four orders of life. The four castes are the intelligent caste, the martial caste, the productive caste and the laborer caste. These castes are classified in terms of one's work and qualification and not by birth. Then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life, the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life. In the best interest of human society there must be such divisions of life, otherwise no social institution can grow in a healthy state. And in each and every one of the abovementioned divisions of life, the aim must be to please the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead. This institutional function of human society is known as the system of varṇāśrama-dharma, which is quite natural for the civilized life. The varṇāśrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over another. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is missed by too much attachment for indriya-prīti, or sense gratification, as already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varṇāśrama is utilized by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section. In the Kali-yuga, or in the age of quarrel, this artificial predominance is already current, but the saner section of the people know it well that the divisions of castes and orders of life are meant for smooth social intercourse and high-thinking self-realization and not for any other purpose.

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Here is French. French language. (French)

Bhagavān: We have practical political philosophy.

Yogeśvara: He asks what are our political principles in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do we have a program?

Prabhupāda: Our... We have not only political program, but we have got political, and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think... Just like in your body, there are four divisions: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated... Find out, śamo damas titikṣā.

Yogeśvara: You want to translate? (French)

Prabhupāda: So there must be four divisions of the society, the first-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth-class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses... Hmmm. Read. Yes.

Yogeśvara:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ
kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca
jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ
brahma-karma svabhāva-jam
(BG 18.42)

Prabhupāda: This is definition of the first-class man.

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive.

Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, rightly. And I might also inquire... I take it that you feel... Forgive me if I'm not using the right expression, but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system.

Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brāhmaṇa, the śūdras and so on, per se.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to... Find out the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay?

Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta.

Reverend Powell: Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago, I knew...

Prabhupāda: You have been in Calcutta?

Reverend Powell: Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this...

Prabhupāda: Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they passed through Calcutta or Bombay, like that.

Reverend Powell: That's right. Yes. We came by air. Was there some reference?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

Guest (4) (Indian man): Recently I was reading article in a science magazine and a space scientist, he has calculated that after 67,000 million years the universe contracts. And then I started calculating in terms of the yugas and the division which is mentioned. With the help of an astronomer I reached the conclusion that both figures coincide. So do you mean to say that when it was mentioned that after four yugas they will collide. Then it was a kind of vision, or might have been calculated by this...

Prabhupāda: Means calculation. It is going on, regulated way. Just like everyone knows that this month is February. In the month of June the summer will begin. Everyone knows. It is not conclusion; it is experience. There is no need of calculating. So one who has got better experience, he can say like that. Calculation and experience. Just like if somebody says, "Two plus two plus two plus two," somebody says immediately, "Six." And another calculates, "Two plus two plus..., six." So experience and calculation. Lacks experience, he calculates. One who has better experience, he doesn't calculate. One who knows past, present, and future, he doesn't require to make calculation. He knows everything. So God knows past, present, and future, and others who are favored by God, he also knows by the grace of God. Because he hears from God. God knows past, present, and future. Then he simply reproduces God's words, that's all. He doesn't require to calculate. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). The Kṛṣṇa says. Now, we can say what is the age of Brahmā by Kṛṣṇa's words. I don't require to be a very expert astrologer or astronomer. I hear from Kṛṣṇa, and I reproduce. Just like child. Father said, "This is this;" I say, "This is this." That's all. The child is not perfect, but when he says, "Father said this is this," that is perfect. Therefore our process of gathering knowledge from the father—we don't calculate or don't concoct or put theories, no. We don't do that. This is called śruti, śruti-pramāṇa, evidence from śruti.

Room Conversation with Woman Sanskrit Professor -- February 13, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: So? Why? Then the answer will be: "Why there shall not be existence?" First of all you answer this. If you question like that—"Why there is existence?"—then I shall inquire, "Why there shall not be existence?" Therefore the decision should be taken from the Absolute. Your question, my answer, will not solve. If you say, "Why there is existence?" I can ask you, "Why there shall not be existence?" And who will decide this?

Guest (1): If I may something, this basic question, I suppose, may be asked only on the level of all religion, all philosophy, which does not put a line of division between practice in life...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): ...and abstract investigations. Now, in normal Western thinking we do deny the very purpose of that question. As a matter of fact, we never ask it. Since time when Leibnitz did ask this question we all forgot it, or deliberately we suppress it. We simply say, "All right, let's be concerned only with those things which we can deal with effectively in material world. And the question of purpose let's leave aside." Now, I suppose that within this system of thought which you have...

Room Conversation with Woman Sanskrit Professor -- February 13, 1975, Mexico:

Hṛdayānanda: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death."

Prabhupāda: That's it. Now, this is a fact. Everyone knows that body is changing. Now, how the last body's changed? That you make experiment, how it is passing. Yes. To make experiment means you have to know the science how to make experiment. That is knowledge. You take the basic principle of knowledge, and then you make your experiment and you will know this is perfect.

Guest (1): Is there any direct line of division between that which you would call knowledge and that what you call religion?

Prabhupāda: Religion, as it is passing on at the present moment, "a kind of faith," this is not religion. This is not religion. According to... Religion means dharma, the characteristic. Just like you are eating something salty, something sweet. So the sugar, the characteristic, it is sweet. That is religion. And the salt is salty. The chili is pungent. So these characteristic is religion. So you'll have to find out religion, what is your real characteristic. That is religion. Now, religion is going, "I believe in this way." That is another thing, sentiment. Religion without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion, mental speculation. Those two things must be combined, philosophy and sentiment. Then it is religion. (end)

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: (Speaks in Bengali) Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
(CC Adi 9.41)

This is para-upakāra. So what is this nonsense para-upakāra, creating an atom bomb? Is that para-upakāra? Of course, it has got its utilization, but it is not for para-upakāra. (Bengali) Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (Bengali) Śūdra is the cātur division, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now in India mostly they are śūdras, 99.9. They are not interested that satya śamo damas titikṣa arjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). (Bengali) They are captivated by the śūdras. This, during the British period the śūdra activities, developing the country by railway, by factory, by bridge—these people are innocent. They thought that "Oh, here is the actual civilization. The Britishers have brought." They lost their own civilization.

Guest: Is it possible to be brāhmaṇa for all?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Kṛṣṇa said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Guest: (Bengali)

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are in need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra. So this is very scientific. How it not be scientific? It is spoken by God. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Required. Just like in this institution, I am guru, and if everyone becomes guru, then who will carry out the order of guru? There must be disciple also, who will carry out the order of guru. So it is not required... Just like in your body, it is not that body is made of head only, but head is required. You cannot avoid head, neither you can avoid the leg. So śūdra required, the brāhmaṇa required, the kṣatriya required, and the vaiśya required. And the society should be very nicely managed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ. Why does He not say one varṇa, brāhmaṇa? Naturally there must be division because all men are not of the same quality. You cannot expect. So whatever quality he has got, utilize that. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. The one man is lame, and one man is blind. So both are useless. So they combine together. The lame man was taken on the shoulder of the blind man. So the lame man has no leg, but he has got eyes. He was directing, "Go this way." So both their business was perfect. Similarly, according to the quality of the work, there must be a class of men less intelligent. They cannot independently work. They must require a master. That is śūdra. And then the vaiśya, then the kṣatriya, and the upper man is brāhmaṇa. He gives the direction to the kṣatriya. He is ruler.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The guṇas are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person. That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of brāhmaṇa, proper training of kṣatriya, vaiśya, must be given. These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that?

Brahmānanda: "As there are different sections of educational institutions, there must be one institution how to train up perfect brāhmaṇas with ideal characters as above mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. If there is a section of people of ideal character, say 5 percent, the other 95 percent, by seeing their example, will follow. In other words, a section of the society must be of ideal character. That is essential."

Prabhupāda: So therefore this varṇāśrama college is very essential.

Governor: Both intensive and extensive training.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Proper training. It may be extensive and intensive... Doesn't matter.

Governor: You said 5 percent and 95 percent.

Morning Walk -- May 15, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Not so early.

Śrutakīrti: And no mango for breakfast.

Prabhupāda: No. You said that the man will not like this kind of job. Eh? Therefore there must be division of job. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). He is a śūdra. He does not want to produce his own food. If you give him some salary, then he will be satisfied. And then he will work with plow also. If you give him salary, he will accept that.

Paramahaṁsa: Actually in the West, more or less, that system, the division system, is accepted because we have businessmen, we have labor men, we have politicians, we have teachers and professors.

Prabhupāda: It is changed?

Śrutakīrti: Changed?

Prabhupāda: My wrapper?

Śrutakīrti: Yeah, this is the new wrapper.

Prabhupāda: New wrapper?

Śrutakīrti: I got for you in Vṛndāvana. I'd gotten it in Delhi.

Prabhupāda: With that border?

Śrutakīrti: No, no, that's this. See there are two wrappers.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Both of them are new.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Find out this verse.

Śrutakīrti:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
(SB 1.2.13)

"Oh best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord, Hari."

Prabhupāda: That is religion. That should be developed, that "Whether by my profession, by my business, by my talent, by my capacities..." There are different categories. "Whether I have pleased God?" Then it is successful. If you have pleased God by your legal profession—you are in a different dress—it doesn't matter. You are as good as they are whole time only serving God. Because their business is also to please God. Similarly, if you have pleased God, then even by practicing your law, you are as good as the saintly person. That should be the aim, "Whether I have pleased God with my professional duty or occupational duty?" That is the standard. Let people take up this. We don't say that "You change your position. You become a sannyāsī or you give up your profession and become bald-headed." No, we don't say that. (laughs) We are by nature. (laughter) So this is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you remain in your position, but see whether by your discharge of duties you have pleased God.

Then everything will be all right.
Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Determination, and yuddhe ca apalāyanam. Now when there is war, these politician will remain in their room safely. They will not go to the war. And why these people are voted for political post? Formerly the king would first of all stand. To the other side also, the king is there and this side also. The fight is going on. If the king is killed, then the victory is there. Yuddhe ca apalāyanam. The formula is there. So these classes of man should be on the administration, not anyone coward, nonsense, and by hook and crook they get some vote and take the political leader... How you will find peace? The fourth class is required. Just like in your body you have got brain, brain is required. Then hand. Whenever there is some attack, consciously, unconsciously, I forward my hand. So the division is already there. If you come to attack me with a knife, I don't push my head. I push my hand. So when there is attack, the brāhmaṇas are not expected to go forward; the kṣatriyas. So this is training. Everything is perfectly there. People are not accepting. You don't require conference. You simply accept the standard knowledge. Then everything is there. I am speaking to you because you are leader of the society. So if we take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and train people from all over the world —not that Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the Hindu or for the Indians—for everyone, then there will be all right. Otherwise difficult...

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They are not complete?

Rāmeśvara: You have finished them.

Prabhupāda: No, I have finished. I mean to edit, editing?

Rāmeśvara: Editing, we are done five volumes in Madhya-līlā and two volumes in Antya-līlā. But they are being held up in the Sanskrit division.

Prabhupāda: So you get it corrected. I am present. I will do that.

Rāmeśvara: I think when Nitāi and Jagannātha come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, all the books will come out within a few months, all of them.

Prabhupāda: No, no, not a few months. I want these seventeen pending books must be printed within two months. That I want. Otherwise disqualification. Yes. (break) ...be done. Your so many GBC's are here, and you are also here, I am also here. Decide! It must be done. It is too much delay. (break) ...constructing something here, but stopped? What is that?

Bahulāśva: No, they just use that for cleaning the beach.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bahulāśva: They use that for cleaning up the garbage on the beach.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa's business is paṭhan pāṭhan yajan yājan danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. Brāhmaṇa means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brāhmaṇa's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called paṭhan pāṭhan. Then yajan yājan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. (break) ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahiḥ. Antar means internally, and bahiḥ means external. We... That chant, that ācamana mantra?

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Bahya means external, and abhyāntara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyābhyāntaraṁ śuciḥ. Śuciḥ means purified, brāhmaṇa. And who is not purified, he is muciḥ. (break) We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. (break) ...not expect everyone to become brāhmaṇa. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Kṛṣṇa consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). One can get perfection, even becoming a śūdra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brāhmaṇas can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. No. The śūdras also can become, provided he is guided by the brāhmaṇa. (break) At the present moment the whole human society is full of śūdras. There is no brāhmaṇas. So you have to train real brāhmaṇas. (break) ...how respectfully received that Sudāmā Vipra, not that because he was a caste brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa created these four division, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, but He does not belong to any one of them. He is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya nor śūdra. He is transcendental. Similarly, our philosophy—just to make the human society very peaceful and making progress we wish to establish this system. A first-class man, group of men, brāhmaṇas, they will guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas, the administrators, they will guide the vaiśya. Vaiśya means agriculture and cow protection and trade. And śūdra means those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśyas. They are simply worker, assistant. So there must be division like this. The brāhmaṇas should guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas will administer the state, and the vaiśyas will produce foodstuff, and śūdras will help. Cooperation for common benefit. But the aim is spiritual realization. That is perfect society. If everyone is śūdra, without any aim of life, then there will be chaos. Just like in your country, in spite of so much facility for education, the students are produced hippies, useless for all purposes. Why? I have gone to so many universities. I have seen the students, hippies. And if you say that "If you act like cats and dogs, you will become dog next life," they say, "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" (laughter) This is education. He is prepared to become a dog. He does not know what is the distinction between dog and human being. He is seeking after the dog's facility that he can have sex on the street. He is thinking the dog life is advantageous. This is the position. Therefore Professor Judah has written me this letter, that "I am simply surprised how you have converted the drug-addicted hippies into servant of Kṛṣṇa and the humanity." This is his words.

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Jagadīśa: He says young people today have no sense of discipline. They don't know what it means to be...

Prabhupāda: How they can be? They are not trained up. They are not trained up from the very beginning. For being trained up, there is another four divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. These are the training divisions. So for the first-class, second-class, third-class, all the students, they are trained up as brahmacārī, student life. Brahmacārī means celibacy, live under the direction of the teacher and accept all kinds of hardship under the teacher's or spiritual master direction. Children, they can easily take it. If a child, a small child, I ask him, "My dear child, you take my shoes and keep it there," he will immediately agree. He has no sense, "Oh, he is asking me to take his shoes." He will immediately agree. Even he is very rich man's son. So this life is advised that a student live just like a menial servant of the teacher or the spiritual master. And they agree. We have got good instances. And he is coming from the first-class family, brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family or vaiśya family, first, second, third. So even śūdra family, he can learn also. So brahmacārī. Then he is, if he can remain without wife or without opposite sex, then he continues to remain as brahmacārī. He is encouraged. This process encourages to remain brahmacārī, that "Don't take to sex life, it is entailed with so many difficulties. Practice to remain a brahmacārī. You'll save so much trouble." But if he is unable—the teacher sees-Then he is allowed to marry, marriage. If he is trained up brahmacārī, when he marries, he lives with wife under rules and regulation, not like cats and dogs. And then, because he had previous training, at a certain age he gives up family life. That is called vānaprastha. Pañcaśordhvam vānam vrajet. The vānaprastha life is accepted, generally, after fiftieth year, not earlier. Then the husband and wife travels all over, I mean to say, spiritual sanctified places. In India there are so many places. So in this way, there is no sex in the vānaprastha. Simply the wife remains as assistant. And she also practices austerities. And then the husband, when he is fully mature, he sends wife back to his elderly children to take care of her and he takes sannyāsa.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Mrs. Wax: The ten-year-old boys who left Gurukula and went to Vṛndāvana and then went to Māyāpur, what will they...? They will be trained in the divisions there and come back?

Prabhupāda: No, that is the ideal, mind completely controlled, senses completely controlled, truthful and simple life. In this way they will be trained up gradually. And we have got one hundred books like that. If they read all these books and if they are trained up in their character, then they will be, in future, first-class men.

Mrs. Wax: Would you comment on the current political situation in India, what's happening right now?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will happen everywhere because there is no first-class man.

Mrs. Wax: So it doesn't matter if Nārāyaṇa is successful?

Prabhupāda: No.

Mrs. Wax: None of them are first-class people is what you're saying.

Prabhupāda: They are politician. That also... All of them are fourth-class men. The fighting is between two section of fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class man. Although the Bhagavad-gītā is there, they do not know, neither do they care. Just like I was telling. When we propose that "No illicit sex, no meat eating," they laugh, "Hah! What is that?" But when they are put into trouble they say, "What to do?" When there is crime they say, "What to do?" They do not know how to tackle the situation because they are all third-class, fourth-class men. They do not know. They become disappointed.

Morning Walk -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: To drive away dogs. (laughter) (break)

Jayatīrtha: The 400,000 different species of human life? There's one place in which you mention that different persons like carpenter or different tradesmen are different species. Is that...?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Jayatīrtha: What's the...

Prabhupāda: That is division. Varṇa, that is called varṇa.

Jayatīrtha: So that has nothing to do with species. Species is like Negro or...

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Jayatīrtha: ...gods are also included in this human species.

Prabhupāda: Different types of... Kinnara, 400,000.

Brahmānanda: Also different planets?

Morning Walk -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Yes. But everyone can become devotee. There is no harm. It is not that because one is in the lower species, he cannot become a devotee. Everyone can become a devotee. (break) ...yoni, they can also become perfect devotee. (break) This is the power of God. He can deliver anyone without any consideration. Therefore paṇḍita is sama-darśinaḥ, he does not make these divisions. He sees that "He is spirit soul. So let him be delivered." That's all. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśināh (BG 5.18). Materially there is division. He is black, he is white, he is this, he is that. This is material. Spiritually, there is no division. One. (break) They make, what is called, spiritual division also. That is their foolishness. Spiritually there is no division. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param (BG 18.54). Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end)

Room Conversation -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: No, no. So long it is not available, we must take the best advantage. That is another thing. But gradually we shall develop a society that all these unnecessary rubbish things should be rejected. That is the idea. Or those who are interested, let them manufacture car; we take advantage. We don't bother ourself how to manufacture car. Ajāgara-vṛtti. Ajāgara-vṛtti, the idea is... Ajāgara means the snake. So a mouse makes a hole in the field to live very peacefully. So, and he enters the hole, and a snake gets the information and he comes, enters the hole. He eats the snake... The snake eats the mouse and lives peacefully. So let this rascal manufacture motorcar. When we require, we take from them and ride away. We are not going to manufacture. There will be some rascals. Let them do that, mouse. We enter as snake. (laughter) That's all. We are doing that. We are doing that. I did not manufacture this house, but somebody, some mouse, has done. (laughter) And we have entered it, that's all. That's all. This is going on all over the world. You know George Harrison? He has earned money with so great hard labor, and he has given us a house in London, fifty-five lakhs' worth. Another boy, Alfred Ford, he's the great grandson of Mr. Henry Ford. He has given. He is giving still money. He is prepared with all his money. So those who are after money, material things, we have to induce them that "Spend for me," that's all, and let him earn. So far we are concerned, we shall live very simple life, simply in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not go to construct big, big house. He simply constructs his character, and the other kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, they offer him, "Please come here and sit down." Therefore the division is... One who is unable to become a brāhmaṇa, let him become kṣatriya. If he cannot become kṣatriya, let him become a vaiśya. Otherwise let him remain a śūdra. But there should be ideal class. So we are trying to create an ideal society of brāhmaṇas. Then people will be benefited. And if everyone is śūdra, rascal, then what people will be benefited? They do not know how to live. The brāhmaṇas will give idea, "Live like this. You will be happy."

Morning Walk -- October 7, 1975, Durban:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. When Gokulendra went to England he saw a European man with a pick in his hand, and he couldn't believe it, because in South Africa you never see a European person with a pick opening up the street. Only the Africans do things like that. And they'll have one European man standing there, directing. He'll make so much money. (break)

Prabhupāda: Indians are taken within the group of black? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, they have white and nonwhite. So technically speaking, they can classify all of the Indians as nonwhite. But at the same time, there is more division, and they have Indian community, and they have the colored community and the African community.

Prabhupāda: The government officer, responsible post, they are offered to the Indians? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Government?

Prabhupāda: Government responsible post.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The police?

Prabhupāda: No, not police. Any responsible office. They are equally open? No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They have facility. The philosophy of the government is that they have separate development. This is why they call it a apartheid. They have separate hospitals for the Indians. They have separate schools.

Prabhupāda: And for the black?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: For the Africans? They don't have so much now. Very poor facility.

Morning Walk -- November 30, 1975, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: For presidentship?

Haṁsadūta: For presidentship. And he stands a very good chance of winning.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's governor of California. (break) The movie stars are entering into politics now. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...the government will be incompetent, the more the citizens will be exploited. Ultimately the citizens will suffer. Because they will want money and plunder the citizens, they will be disgusted. Āchinna-dāra-draviṇ gacchanti giri-kānanam. (break)

Tejās: ...tax division, the clerks will come to the various businessmen after they make their first application, and they will tell them... First they will come to them. And immediately a businessman knows, so he gives him 500,000 rupees. And he will say, "Oh, thank you very much. I just came to see you. I wanted to tell you that if you say like this, you will save ten thousand, twenty thousand rupees. But don't say when you are there that I told you." (end)

Page Title:Divisions (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Compiler:MadhuGopaldas, RupaManjari
Created:18 of Apr, 2013
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=79, Let=0
No. of Quotes:79